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Hi I'm pretty depressed with ZVP
I fended off his zealot rush, and tried to muta harass him and he just mass cannons on his base and highground, I tried to mass expand and counter his cannons but he just mass cannons everywhere and camp each choke point with a HT.
I tried everything from swarm speedlings, guardians (gets raped by corsairs), or hydra bust but they just keep killing me with cannons from the base+highground and storming the choke points
I"m pretty depressed right now and I don't know how to counter this shit
I'm D level in ICCUP
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guardians + devourers + queens to broodling templars.
Or try to starve the fuck out of him, take the whole map...
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1 can = 1 zeal and a half. The more he makes cannons, the less units he has, the more you can expand without anytrouble. Just take the whole map, and since he doesn't have many units, deny any attempt of a new expand.
The best advice I can give to you is leaving a zergling/overlord in every potential spot for an expand. And either snipe the probe, either attack before cannons are up.
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Mass expand and pretty much swarmed any unit will kill it. I'd suggest ultras if storm is that bad for you.
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use 9 - 11 mutas and kill the ht(s). Then proceed with swarms on canons and then send in the lings. Or you can drop 40-60 hydras in his main.
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The most standard and natural counter to mass cannons is mass drones. If you're in no position to be adding a lot of drones despite your opponent adding many cannons, then you've got your economy killed somewhere earlier.
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Hydras do very well against cannons, just don't get stormed. If your hydras won't break then just expand everywhere and don't let him expand. If he is still camping then just drop in the back of his base.
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If toss turtles, take whole map, drone whore, make a lot of hatcheries, tech to ultras, upgrade +3 carapace, +3 melee, get greater spire in case he goes air faggotry. Defend your expansions though, don't let your drones get killed by DTs or storm drops.
Attack expansions with ultra/ling + defilers. Just make more if they die.
Drop a lot of them on toss main, next to gateways if you can't take out expansions.
And IMHO forget hydras in ZvP lategame.
Zerg lategame is like the easiest of them all. Just attack and drop a lot.
Edit: Oh come on, that toss was terrible. Didn't even have templar tech till the 34 minute (or was it destroyed?). You shouldn't have had any problems beating him.
Also, pure hydras + dark swarm don't mix. Attacking with a puny 1 or 2 control groups won't do anything, either.
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If he barricades his chokes really well, doom drops are really the only way to go. I don't think hydras are good for attacking high ground. Especially when he has temps.
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if he turtles hard core just take map control.. by turtling he forfeits all expos to you just make sure that you are able to hold them and maintain control.
and then you can just roflstomp him ultra/ling/darkswarm style at his natural. (don't let him get a third if he turtles at his nat)
make sure you macro well
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watching the replay now, commenting on every important thing i see. (i'm only c- on iccup, but I think I can give you at least some tips...)
- your opening looks ok. the protoss opening doesn't. maybe you could have used a drone scout (i tend to scout with the 9th drone on 4 player maps). his bo is completely fucked up. (2 pylons, 2 gates, assimilator...in this order) normally all you've got to do from here is: play safe, defend his zealot aggression with lings/sunkens and choose a tech to kill him.
- okay, your defense was not good. but you still are ahead in terms of tech. ofc he's hiding behind cannons, that's what all protoss noobs do.  just scout the cannons and expand. think of the "concept of threat" (thx day9). he has to build a shitload of cannons, because his tech is so late. that means mapcontrol for you.
- oO. you're attacking with...3 mutas? wait until you've got 10-11, clump them and try to do some damage. if you see 4-5 cannons and 2 sairs just don't fly in there, because the damage is already done. and don`t fight sairs when your mutas are clumped up and your muta micro is not that good. split them.
- no. you wasted a lot of stuff to his sairs/cannons. that's bad. and you've got 1,6k minerals by now. that's very bad. remember: always try to expand WHILE you're attacking. that's not hard to do! your opponent has spent so much money on defense...just expand, don't waste units, deny his expansions, and win...
- stop wasting units! and don't panic when you see a lot of corsairs. if corsair numbers become too large, scourge are hard to use. if you're ahead economically, you can spend some money on defensive structures (spores) to save the ovies.
- now you start whining.  some dts kill your 4th base, because you expanded blindly. don't do that. on python it's important to establish the 4th base (sometimes the 3rd) at a natural to secure your late game gas. cannons aren't OP, in fact they suck against zerg.
- good drop. that's the game...don't tell me you've lost this! you killed his tech. this means: no dts. no corsairs. total map control for you. EXPAND everywhere now!
- 2,4k gas, 2,4 k minerals. you really need to work on your macro. even if I'm repeating myself: all you've got to do now is: expand 2 times, tech to ultralisks/cracklings/swarm. win.
- another drop. now it's over. you defense at the bottom right was bad. did u upgrade lurkers? they are your friends in terms of base defence against zealots.
- 30 minutes over. 2,5 bases to 1. you're still in some kind of rage mode. calm down, play it safe! scout the map. expand everywhere and defend with lurker/ling/swarm. don't let the protoss expand again. his cannons can't move...
- 32 minutes. horrible attack. swarm the front, and finish the gates w/ masslings and ultras. hydras are tricky to use with swarm, especially when there are cannons on the high ground. just drop some ultraling on the cliff and kill the cannons there. your whining gets absurd. (but that's okay, I like nerdrage) don't a-move little armies into his defensive structures.
- 5000 minerals. FIVE THOUSAND. instead of flaming your opponent, you need to build some hatcheries.
- oh my god. you stopped doing anything. carrier has arrived. end of game. what. the. 8000 minerals.
summary:
good:
- opening
- usage of drops
bad:
- scouting and decision making
- macro
- army control
- manner
-> seriously, work on your macro and your overall decision making. this can only be done by playing a lot of games and analyzing them correctly. u need to THINK while you`re playing.
-> expand on purpose. all u need is to be 2 expansions ahead. in this game, ultraling with swarm would have sealed the deal at least twice.
-> you also don't seem to understand the economic concept of zerg. if you expand a lot, you need MORE HATCHERIES. and if your macro is bad, you need EVEN MORE HATCHERIES.
kill the protoss with your mobility. mass a shitload of shit, when you're ahead like this. use defilers.
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You (as others have said) need to assert map control, and mass expand.
Then you simply starve the P.
If you do not have the patience to do that, hydra/guardian will clean anything up; minimal storm dodging might be needed. If you are fancy, add plague.
Note: guardians clean up cannons, also babysit them to snipe temps - generally spread them out; hydras cover guardians vs. sairs and may assist in cleaning up cannons).
In any case, do not attack too early, wasting your troops, and then being countered.
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And, supporting virpi:
As a Z, everytime you have 300 minerals, despite you have no idle larvae, no upgrades to order or tech buildings to make, you plant a hatchery.
The only exception is when you are saving money for some timing, e,g, 9 muta in a 3 hatch build.
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Dark swarm + zergling / ultra rapes cannons so much its not fair. Watch the game between Hero and Tempest on Matchpoint that was played yesterday in STX cup when it gets uploaded on youtube (jon747 or nevake). Its not mass cannon but it shows the power of swarm and lings against cannons
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He's massing cannons... Even if he reavers up, all you have to do is mass expand and macro.
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Even mass hydras counters cannons.
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Hydras are actually pretty terrible against massed cannons (read: not cost-effective). The best strategy by far would simply be dark swarm coupled with ultra/ling.
As a matter of fact, I just played a game a few days ago where my protoss opponent cannon-turtled with 3 gas bases and massed a full supply of carriers. I suicided about 4 overlords to see the mass stargates and carriers, and just tailored my army accordingly:
4 queens w/ ensnare researched
6 defilers
Drones
2 scourge for each carrier that I saw
Rest = crackling + ultra
I had denied my opponent scouting the whole game by placing overlord + scourge mines around his base perimeter. I sacrificed my queens to ensnare and parasite the carrier fleet, then plagued them as they left the base. It was then a simple matter to scourge-clone the whole bunch, and he GGed as my swarms went down over his cannons.
Now for a few general words on strategy against turtles:
This will seem counter-intuitive, but a turtling opponent actually gives him/herself the initiative with regard to pushing out. After all, there is no way in hell you are going to launch a successful attack if they are committed to the turtling strategy. What you should then do is match your army to counter theirs. Take every expansion on the map, even if you don't mine just yet. You also don't need as many workers as you otherwise would had your opponent taken a more aggressive stance. As soon as you hit 200/200 supply, start sinking about a 1/3 of your resourcing into production buildings (be they hatcheries, gateways, factories, etc.). Bank the rest of it. Seeing as your opponent has chosen to remain on limited bases, you will likely max out far ahead of them. The rest of the game comes down to you biding your time, and getting more unit production capabilities and a larger amount in the bank. When they push out, you should hopefully have the correct unit composition to ensure that you don't get steamrolled completely, and you can use your 20-or-so hatcheries/gateways/factories to overrun the push.
On a closing note, the advice given in this thread is precisely the reason why turtles are overwhelmingly terran. A 200/200 supply mech army with full upgrades can and will destroy every other maxed out army of any race, given the right composition of goliaths and tanks. Great care must be taken to use spells efficiently so that the non-turtle has a hope of stopping the inexorable push towards his/her bases, as units alone are likely to be insufficient.
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first off i just want to say i watched this replay while eating a pizza, and it was the best time i've had in a while...really entertaining and fun to watch.
listen to these guys...treat a turtling protoss like a turtling terran...bleed them dry and take the whole map...SCOUT HIDDEN EXPOS. prevent him from expoing ANYMORE than he is.
your biggest problem in starcraft it seems is your attitude. you threw army after army into a choke he spent every resource trying to hold because you were pouting and frustrated...be patient and try to out think your opponent...
thanks again for the rep!
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On August 18 2010 15:49 Pedo.Bear wrote:+ Show Spoiler +User was warned for this post
lol... allow me expand on that idea.
If you see mass canons, at higher levels you would be inclined to think- corsair reaver. your appropriate response to this would be spores and hyds(with burrow maybe?  ) w/ scourage/muta to keep your opponent at bay and have some air control.
I am at work, so i cant watch the replay just yet buuut by reading others responses i can see that your opponent had no intention of going corsair reaver. which makes beating him quite straight forward:
1. Gain map control (send ovs to every expo to make sure hes not sneaking another expo)
2. Get 4 gas minimum and tech to hive getting upgrades.
3. Expand EVERYWHERE
4. Drone up
5. Max out at 200/200 (with ultras and crack lings and lurkers kekekekekeeee)
6. then proceed to use + Show Spoiler + to rip him a new one
7. for every unit that dies make a new one to stay at 200/200 through your now 1 billion hatchs that you should have through your map control and 1 billion expansions
worst comes to worst starve him out and then slowly pick at him hah
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I say take advice from any c+ or above players. Don't just take any random advice. =/
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Ultra/ling with swarm may be the ideal combo vs. cannons, but a competent turtling P will support those with reavers and HT, which will completely splatter your troops.
Cannons on unreachable high ground also tend to fuck up ultra/ling AI.
I know this from painful experience. Assuming you have expanded properly, you can afford hydra/guardian. It works convincingly, try it. It is by far the most cost effective counter.
Aim for a composition of 3-4 hydra per guardian.
I think Uncle NayNay's advice vs. turtling is good.
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Scout. Since he has hardly any mobile army, he can only take a new expansion if he can safely get cannons up. Deny it. The situation you found yourself in, is not one you want to get out of, but one you dont want to get in.
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Anothing thing to remember is the complete COST of going mass cannons
1 cannon = 150, nexus = 400. Each 3 cannons he makes, he forfeits the ability to make a nexus, expand and support his economy.
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Lurker contain him to punish his turtling, do doom drops with a combo of defilers to dark swarm. Micro wise, bait the HT and force him to use storms on about 4 cracklings at the choke point and then use dark swarm and overwhelm with your main army.
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I lost again to this strat in python
he just mass HT's sincegas are infinite, even guardians didn't work
so depressed. will upload the new replay later
my macro is still horrible, but i still rape him early-mid game, he just mass cannons.
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take your time, you will outmacro him eventually, don't rush to kill him... try to control the action and dont let him expand again.
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Take bases, make hatcheries and drones, macro up with 3/3 ultra/ling, drop to several bases at once. Just defend drops against yourself.
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This should be a good replay to show the right idea. It was poorly executed, but the right idea (its kinda old, but the best replay of mine that I could find). Take every base you can, kill his expansion attempts before he can get them going, get to 200/200, crush any push he makes, and then wait..... Ultras work nicely.
Note that I only had ~130 apm, and I played sloppy, and it was still a relatively easy victory. I was in control for the entire battle (even when he pushed out and attacked, I knew I could beat it). And, yea, I did try a pretty cheesy opening, but it failed miserably, and when I saw him throw up that many cannons in response, I knew I had the game.
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upon seeing Toss has taken another base and thrown up cannons "see? mass cannons how can I counter this"
haha you typed this while you had hydras in his main, which you had just cleared out. I dunno.. try that maneuver again on his new base, since all the cannons were by the ramp instead of the nexus? Oh hey it worked
Also have a little defense at your expansions if you aren't close enough/fast enough to respond to threats. And have more expansions. And don't let him take any.
I love it when a toss goes mass cannons. It's game over right there.
and super LOL at using darkswarm when your army is ranged and his is melee.
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and super LOL at using darkswarm when your army is ranged and his is melee.
i think that was relating to the crackling/ultra tip. and his cannons are ranged
one can only repeat what has been said - by turtling he gave you the map, just take every expo you can get and prepare for when he feels confident enough to move out. keep money in the bank or use it for hatcheries.
if he does NOT move out try to find weak spots to break through but be careful, dont waste too much units. defender is always in the advantage of the battle but not of the war
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You guys are saying to expand, but what if he isn't turtling? He just masses cannons at his expo so you can't take it down, and keeps his army to protect his main(with a few cannons there of course)? I've heard Z is supposed to stay one base ahead of P, so I took my 4th and he eventually just ran in and killed it. I sent my army to try and stop it, but it was too late.
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If you have problem with cannons then your timing is all wrong. Pretty much all zerg end game options auto win versus mass canons.
protoss spam cannons to get themselves over a specific timing window when they are weak. you just have to get there before he does.
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On August 27 2010 23:10 schaf wrote:i think that was relating to the crackling/ultra tip. and his cannons are ranged well of course. I was posting that though in response to a specific instance of him fighting with hydras against zealots under swarm D: Obviously dark swarm is great with ultraling and helps against cannons, but not if you have mostly hydras and he has zealots out in front of the cannons like in OP's replay
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@MamiyOtaru: I give you that, didnt have the time to watch the replay till now
@topic: I'm at 12:00 mins now and the game went really good for you, but then you decided to attack him... well storming up a hill with cannons on top isnt really promising success, i guess you learned that.
you were denying him the natural until you moved your army back to your main at about 13min, you are at 3 bases and I think you just had to lean back and wait for him to do anything. until that, keep macroing and harassing. that muta attack was ok, but you lost them too easily. cannons are static defenses and unless he puts them everywhere in his base there is always weak spots where you can take out a building... now he has that nasty corsairs and goes overlord hunting.
i think you won the game at about 19min where you killed his main (although I really really laughed about bad timing when you moved your OVs away just as his DTs arrive :D), he was at one base and you could have finished it with another hydra push i guess. yeah then you let him back into the game because you were frustrated the whole game and did some silly pushes with hydras under dark swarm and got raped by zealots o_O
But to be honest: I would have done way worse
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If you go "mass expand", as repeatedly recommended here, just be sure that:
1. You have the whole map scouted.
2. You have enough units to contain the Protoss and keep them from moving out.
3. You make extra hatcheries so you can spend extra resources.
4. Periodically overlord/scourge scout his base to see what he's building, because he will be thinking about how to break the contain.
If the Protoss turtles like this, you do have the opportunity to build up your production, so it would be more prudent to do so rather than to be hyper-aggressive against someone who is counting on you to be hyper-aggressive. Once you have a lot of production going, you'll be able to launch much stronger attacks against a turtling Protoss and even if you lose a lot in your attacks, you'll still have money while the Protoss will be starving.
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I would like most say, control the map. Gain an eco advantage. Then I'd go defiler with hydra or IF im super well of with bucks... ultralisk. Pull little surprises on him..
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One remark besides the everlasting "macro".
When he's got cannons/zealots on his front door don't bust it. Just keep adding to your army/expanding.
What happened is, as soon as you army got decimated at his front door, he took his natural.
I liked the dropping very much. :D
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If your opponent turtles too hard just make a fair judgement and drone alot / expand.
You might also consider containing and if you are succesfull depending on how much canons he makes you will definately be able to starve him until he dies.
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On August 18 2010 09:15 biarecare wrote:
Countering Protoss mass cannon in ZVP
SCOUT the cannons -> Take 4039635673 bases yourself.
Honestly, nothing more to say.
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DON'T ATTACK AN ULTRA-TURTLE WHO ISN'T TERRAN
Just make more stuff and take more expansions and WAIT.
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MAn id love if that happened to me. Could just go sauron and feel fucking great
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On August 18 2010 14:35 Frigo wrote:
Zerg lategame is like the easiest of them all. Just attack and drop a lot.
This is definitely not true. Don't worry about not catching onto late game immediately, obviously it is the last part of your game that you will improve.
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like pedo.bear on the 1st page said use ur invincibility spell as zerg and just get ultraling & overexpand
User was temp banned for this post.
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send 11 ling 1 defiler to his far away base or anywhere, protoss cant do much but storm against swarm+
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EPT
