first off i just want to say i watched this replay while eating a pizza, and it was the best time i've had in a while...really entertaining and fun to watch.

listen to these guys...treat a turtling protoss like a turtling terran...bleed them dry and take the whole map...SCOUT HIDDEN EXPOS. prevent him from expoing ANYMORE than he is.

your biggest problem in starcraft it seems is your attitude. you threw army after army into a choke he spent every resource trying to hold because you were pouting and frustrated...be patient and try to out think your opponent...

thanks again for the rep!

Kal_rA

United States2925 Posts

August 18 2010 20:26 GMT

#22

On August 18 2010 15:49 Pedo.Bear wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

darkswarm

User was warned for this post

lol... allow me expand on that idea.

If you see mass canons, at higher levels you would be inclined to think- corsair reaver. your appropriate response to this would be spores and hyds(with burrow maybe?

) w/ scourage/muta to keep your opponent at bay and have some air control.

I am at work, so i cant watch the replay just yet buuut by reading others responses i can see that your opponent had no intention of going corsair reaver. which makes beating him quite straight forward:
1. Gain map control (send ovs to every expo to make sure hes not sneaking another expo)
2. Get 4 gas minimum and tech to hive getting upgrades.
3. Expand EVERYWHERE
4. Drone up
5. Max out at 200/200 (with ultras and crack lings and lurkers kekekekekeeee)
6. then proceed to use + Show Spoiler +

darkswarm

to rip him a new one

7. for every unit that dies make a new one to stay at 200/200 through your now 1 billion hatchs that you should have through your map control and 1 billion expansions

worst comes to worst starve him out and then slowly pick at him hah

CoWsGoesMoo

250 Posts

August 18 2010 23:17 GMT

#23

I say take advice from any c+ or above players. Don't just take any random advice. =/

Metaspace

Austria670 Posts

August 19 2010 07:31 GMT

#24

Ultra/ling with swarm may be the ideal combo vs. cannons, but a competent turtling P will support those with reavers and HT, which will completely splatter your troops.
Cannons on unreachable high ground also tend to fuck up ultra/ling AI.

I know this from painful experience. Assuming you have expanded properly, you can afford hydra/guardian. It works convincingly, try it. It is by far the most cost effective counter.
Aim for a composition of 3-4 hydra per guardian.

I think Uncle NayNay's advice vs. turtling is good.

Navane

Netherlands2746 Posts

August 19 2010 09:55 GMT

#25

Scout. Since he has hardly any mobile army, he can only take a new expansion if he can safely get cannons up. Deny it. The situation you found yourself in, is not one you want to get out of, but one you dont want to get in.

sushi.oi.zz

Hong Kong72 Posts

August 19 2010 14:20 GMT

#26

Anothing thing to remember is the complete COST of going mass cannons

1 cannon = 150, nexus = 400. Each 3 cannons he makes, he forfeits the ability to make a nexus, expand and support his economy.

Taekwon

United States8155 Posts

August 19 2010 16:33 GMT

#27

Lurker contain him to punish his turtling, do doom drops with a combo of defilers to dark swarm. Micro wise, bait the HT and force him to use storms on about 4 cracklings at the choke point and then use dark swarm and overwhelm with your main army.

biarecare

United States76 Posts

August 25 2010 19:31 GMT

#28

I lost again to this strat in python

he just mass HT's sincegas are infinite, even guardians didn't work

so depressed. will upload the new replay later

my macro is still horrible, but i still rape him early-mid game, he just mass cannons.

XenOsky

Chile2242 Posts

August 25 2010 21:21 GMT

#29

take your time, you will outmacro him eventually, don't rush to kill him... try to control the action and dont let him expand again.

Frigo

Hungary1023 Posts

August 26 2010 11:36 GMT

#30

Take bases, make hatcheries and drones, macro up with 3/3 ultra/ling, drop to several bases at once. Just defend drops against yourself.

Impervious

Canada4198 Posts

August 26 2010 13:52 GMT

#31

This should be a good replay to show the right idea. It was poorly executed, but the right idea (its kinda old, but the best replay of mine that I could find). Take every base you can, kill his expansion attempts before he can get them going, get to 200/200, crush any push he makes, and then wait..... Ultras work nicely.

Note that I only had ~130 apm, and I played sloppy, and it was still a relatively easy victory. I was in control for the entire battle (even when he pushed out and attacked, I knew I could beat it). And, yea, I did try a pretty cheesy opening, but it failed miserably, and when I saw him throw up that many cannons in response, I knew I had the game.

MamiyaOtaru

United States1687 Posts

August 27 2010 01:16 GMT

#32

upon seeing Toss has taken another base and thrown up cannons "see? mass cannons how can I counter this"

haha you typed this while you had hydras in his main, which you had just cleared out. I dunno.. try that maneuver again on his new base, since all the cannons were by the ramp instead of the nexus? Oh hey it worked

Also have a little defense at your expansions if you aren't close enough/fast enough to respond to threats. And have more expansions. And don't let him take any.

I love it when a toss goes mass cannons. It's game over right there.

and super LOL at using darkswarm when your army is ranged and his is melee.

schaf

Germany1326 Posts

August 27 2010 14:10 GMT

#33

and super LOL at using darkswarm when your army is ranged and his is melee.

i think that was relating to the crackling/ultra tip. and his cannons are ranged

one can only repeat what has been said - by turtling he gave you the map, just take every expo you can get and prepare for when he feels confident enough to move out. keep money in the bank or use it for hatcheries.

if he does NOT move out try to find weak spots to break through but be careful, dont waste too much units. defender is always in the advantage of the battle but not of the war

JuddCaster

United States45 Posts

September 07 2010 11:05 GMT

#34

You guys are saying to expand, but what if he isn't turtling? He just masses cannons at his expo so you can't take it down, and keeps his army to protect his main(with a few cannons there of course)? I've heard Z is supposed to stay one base ahead of P, so I took my 4th and he eventually just ran in and killed it. I sent my army to try and stop it, but it was too late.

haduken

Australia8267 Posts

September 07 2010 13:19 GMT

#35

If you have problem with cannons then your timing is all wrong. Pretty much all zerg end game options auto win versus mass canons.

protoss spam cannons to get themselves over a specific timing window when they are weak. you just have to get there before he does.

MamiyaOtaru

United States1687 Posts

September 07 2010 19:41 GMT

#36

On August 27 2010 23:10 schaf wrote:

Show nested quote +

i think that was relating to the crackling/ultra tip. and his cannons are ranged

well of course. I was posting that though in response to a specific instance of him fighting with hydras against zealots under swarm D: Obviously dark swarm is great with ultraling and helps against cannons, but not if you have mostly hydras and he has zealots out in front of the cannons like in OP's replay

schaf

Germany1326 Posts

September 08 2010 09:38 GMT

#37

@MamiyOtaru: I give you that, didnt have the time to watch the replay till now

@topic: I'm at 12:00 mins now and the game went really good for you, but then you decided to attack him... well storming up a hill with cannons on top isnt really promising success, i guess you learned that.

you were denying him the natural until you moved your army back to your main at about 13min, you are at 3 bases and I think you just had to lean back and wait for him to do anything. until that, keep macroing and harassing. that muta attack was ok, but you lost them too easily. cannons are static defenses and unless he puts them everywhere in his base there is always weak spots where you can take out a building... now he has that nasty corsairs and goes overlord hunting.

i think you won the game at about 19min where you killed his main (although I really really laughed about bad timing when you moved your OVs away just as his DTs arrive :D), he was at one base and you could have finished it with another hydra push i guess. yeah then you let him back into the game because you were frustrated the whole game and did some silly pushes with hydras under dark swarm and got raped by zealots o_O

But to be honest: I would have done way worse

ninazerg

United States7291 Posts

September 08 2010 19:38 GMT

#38

If you go "mass expand", as repeatedly recommended here, just be sure that:

1. You have the whole map scouted.

2. You have enough units to contain the Protoss and keep them from moving out.

3. You make extra hatcheries so you can spend extra resources.

4. Periodically overlord/scourge scout his base to see what he's building, because he will be thinking about how to break the contain.

If the Protoss turtles like this, you do have the opportunity to build up your production, so it would be more prudent to do so rather than to be hyper-aggressive against someone who is counting on you to be hyper-aggressive. Once you have a lot of production going, you'll be able to launch much stronger attacks against a turtling Protoss and even if you lose a lot in your attacks, you'll still have money while the Protoss will be starving.

Tristanity

Malaysia45 Posts

September 09 2010 03:46 GMT

#39

I would like most say, control the map. Gain an eco advantage. Then I'd go defiler with hydra or IF im super well of with bucks... ultralisk. Pull little surprises on him..

Nanaki

Belgium12 Posts

October 03 2010 11:53 GMT

#40

One remark besides the everlasting "macro".
When he's got cannons/zealots on his front door don't bust it. Just keep adding to your army/expanding.
What happened is, as soon as you army got decimated at his front door, he took his natural.

I liked the dropping very much. :D