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D Protoss Macro Secrets - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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JFKWT
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Singapore1442 Posts
December 06 2009 19:06 GMT
#21
On December 07 2009 03:07 IntoTheWow wrote:
No with T you need to baby sit your army a lot. An army of 12 tanks and 24 vults unsieged and unmined will die easily to a protoss army of equal force.

agreed. u can even be ahead in supply and still lose in that case.
The calm before the storm / "loli is not a crime, but meganekko is the way to go!"
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17743 Posts
December 06 2009 19:06 GMT
#22
One thing that I might add on to hot_bid's post is when you rewatch the replay dont just mindlessly look at the rep just to see when your nexus is idle. Think when watching. Why was your nexus idle. It might be something obvious like you were doing something else like microing. So next time you're microing you know oh im going to forget to build probes so then you can go 0p9p during that time. Its a difference knowing oh my nexus was idle and my nexus was idle because i was busy microing. Its something you have to break your rhythm to get down.
ils
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36402 Posts
December 06 2009 19:35 GMT
#23
On December 07 2009 03:49 SkytoM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2009 19:46 Hot_Bid wrote:
On December 06 2009 19:20 lazz wrote:
knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro

this is not important at D level. knowing where skipping probes at certain build timings is important at higher ranks, but a lower level player shouldn't worry about this, because they already have enough trouble just keeping constant probe production

thus, my advice to you and to the people reading this thread is just make as many probes as you can


but after 10min into the game, you would have far too much probes, don't i?

i agree that at some point late game you should stop making workers, but i doubt any D protoss ever loses because they made too many. over-producing probes is a "good" problem at these low ranks. once you start losing games because of it you're already C-.
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
JFKWT
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Singapore1442 Posts
December 06 2009 20:04 GMT
#24
well probably by the time u stop making probes out of sheer apm constraints, up to ~ 100 - 120 supply you'll be just fine with regards to probe production
The calm before the storm / "loli is not a crime, but meganekko is the way to go!"
0neheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States92 Posts
December 06 2009 20:36 GMT
#25
even if it's not supposed to be a problem at d level, when do you stop building probes? just because you got to c- doesn't mean you magically suddenly know when to stop building probes..
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-06 20:49:48
December 06 2009 20:49 GMT
#26
The way I see it, it that you will rarely have more than 3 bases fully saturated. I make enough probes so that I am able to fully saturate 3 bases, because when I get my 4th up my main is basically out, and I can transfer probes. When I take my 5th, my nat is usually mined out, so I can transfer probes. Most often you will have 3 bases mining simultaneously mid-late game, so I stop there. Of course you take in the amount of probes you lost from harass and stuff as well, and make more probes to compensate for that.

edit: also nice thread title change hot_bid lol
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States557 Posts
December 06 2009 21:16 GMT
#27
Usually in PvT you stop building probes out of your first two bases when you get your third, though you can still get some more at your 3rd depending on what's going on. Then you resume probes when your 4th nexus is building until it is finished. However, it's important to replace probes you lose to harass etc. and all of this is assuming perfect probe production.
starleague.mit.edu
nextstep
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada705 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-06 21:27:50
December 06 2009 21:26 GMT
#28
On December 07 2009 05:36 0neheart wrote:
even if it's not supposed to be a problem at d level, when do you stop building probes? just because you got to c- doesn't mean you magically suddenly know when to stop building probes..


yes, is there a magic number of probes per mineral patch or line?

i'm sure at some point, probe production isn't necessary.

i usually make only ~15-17 per line (10-12 on smaller lines), and they already run around, like move around the patch, go behind it, etc.

edit: i want to ask this question for all races too. i'm sure it's not the same, at least for me. i seem to make ~same number of SCVs as probes, but with zerg, i make much less, until later on the game.
go KHAN! TBLS <3
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
December 06 2009 21:31 GMT
#29
On December 06 2009 16:13 Hot_Bid wrote:
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:

For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.

Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.

If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.

You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.

Enjoy your C rank.


Absolute truth, at D/D+ rank just macro and 1a2a3a as toss, as long as you dont get pylon blocked and expo appropriately, you'll win everything
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
stoned_rabbit
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States324 Posts
December 06 2009 21:48 GMT
#30
On December 07 2009 06:26 nextstep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2009 05:36 0neheart wrote:
even if it's not supposed to be a problem at d level, when do you stop building probes? just because you got to c- doesn't mean you magically suddenly know when to stop building probes..


yes, is there a magic number of probes per mineral patch or line?

i'm sure at some point, probe production isn't necessary.

i usually make only ~15-17 per line (10-12 on smaller lines), and they already run around, like move around the patch, go behind it, etc.

edit: i want to ask this question for all races too. i'm sure it's not the same, at least for me. i seem to make ~same number of SCVs as probes, but with zerg, i make much less, until later on the game.


i believe 25 workers per min line is the cutoff point where extreme diminishing returns kicks in. Assuming 3 bases fully saturated this comes out to 75 probes total, which is pretty much perfect. Assuming constant probe production you normally hit this around 10 minutes. Go to single player, turn on operation cwal, make 25 probes and look at it. Memorize what it looks like and then whenever you see that at a base in game, stop making probes there or send some elsewhere.

Or if you're really lazy, stop making probes when you're taking your 4th base (make more to compensate for harass).
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-06 22:52:36
December 06 2009 22:50 GMT
#31
On December 07 2009 06:26 nextstep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2009 05:36 0neheart wrote:
even if it's not supposed to be a problem at d level, when do you stop building probes? just because you got to c- doesn't mean you magically suddenly know when to stop building probes..


yes, is there a magic number of probes per mineral patch or line?

i'm sure at some point, probe production isn't necessary.

i usually make only ~15-17 per line (10-12 on smaller lines), and they already run around, like move around the patch, go behind it, etc.

edit: i want to ask this question for all races too. i'm sure it's not the same, at least for me. i seem to make ~same number of SCVs as probes, but with zerg, i make much less, until later on the game.

I don't play Protoss so I don't know exactly what is the optimal probe/scv count for Protoss/Terran but I know for sure that 15 probes is definitely not enough to fully saturate a typical 9patch min line for Protoss. I'm think it's something close to around 22-23 or so.

And with Zerg it should be the opposite... you make as much drones as you can early, then later make very little to no drones and pump combat units.
Biochemist
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1008 Posts
December 06 2009 23:22 GMT
#32
On December 06 2009 21:30 3clipse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 06 2009 19:20 lazz wrote:
knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro

Oh god, this is what gets me when I play zerg. I'm not used to having to choose between workers and combat units and my proportions/timings of production of each are probably way off, killing my macro.


This is why I think zerg was harder to play in 2003 when most zerg games opened against a 2 gate or a 2 rax. Nowadays vs the FE openings you can pretty much drone constantly with a few specific exceptions that aren't that hard to figure out.
foppa
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada451 Posts
December 07 2009 00:13 GMT
#33
On December 07 2009 03:07 IntoTheWow wrote:
No with T you need to baby sit your army a lot. An army of 12 tanks and 24 vults unsieged and unmined will die easily to a protoss army of equal force.


it works for D- terran
secret with terran is practicing having a lot of apm
i can take you
foppa
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada451 Posts
December 07 2009 00:16 GMT
#34
On December 07 2009 06:16 Muirhead wrote:
Usually in PvT you stop building probes out of your first two bases when you get your third, though you can still get some more at your 3rd depending on what's going on. Then you resume probes when your 4th nexus is building until it is finished. However, it's important to replace probes you lose to harass etc. and all of this is assuming perfect probe production.


when the crap do you take your third? 150 supply? that makes no sense. iccup rank please?
i can take you
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-07 00:59:31
December 07 2009 00:58 GMT
#35
On December 07 2009 09:16 foppa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 07 2009 06:16 Muirhead wrote:
Usually in PvT you stop building probes out of your first two bases when you get your third, though you can still get some more at your 3rd depending on what's going on. Then you resume probes when your 4th nexus is building until it is finished. However, it's important to replace probes you lose to harass etc. and all of this is assuming perfect probe production.


when the crap do you take your third? 150 supply? that makes no sense. iccup rank please?


it makes sense. at mid level you will need to cut probes when your 3rd goes up to get more gates up to prepare for a timing push (assuming a double expand before zealot speed). you can resume probes either after you are comfortable blocking a timing push or have already killed it or you know he is taking a 3rd or just not pushing you.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
quirinus
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Croatia2489 Posts
December 07 2009 03:37 GMT
#36
On December 07 2009 03:07 IntoTheWow wrote:
No with T you need to baby sit your army a lot. An army of 12 tanks and 24 vults unsieged and unmined will die easily to a protoss army of equal force.


I've often gone trough D/D+ tosses with an a-move mid-game attack, it can be done (perfect macro), but depends on your build and early game damage you or your opponent have taken. But it is a bit harder with terran than with toss, yes.
All candles lit within him, and there was purity. | First auto-promoted BW LP editor.
XxxKennyxxX
Profile Joined November 2009
United States18 Posts
December 07 2009 04:37 GMT
#37
so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
2. never stop probe production.
3. don't get supply blocked
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36402 Posts
December 07 2009 04:43 GMT
#38
On December 07 2009 13:37 XxxKennyxxX wrote:
so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
1. never stop probe production.
2. don't get supply blocked
3. have a lot of stuff, attack

@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
Count9
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
China10928 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-07 04:44:48
December 07 2009 04:43 GMT
#39
On December 07 2009 05:36 0neheart wrote:
even if it's not supposed to be a problem at d level, when do you stop building probes? just because you got to c- doesn't mean you magically suddenly know when to stop building probes..

The problem isn't knowing when to stop building probes, it's getting the D mechanics up to the point where he can manage his army, macro out of gates, not miss pylons, and still saturate his probe line, most useful one out of those is the last two. Knowing doesn't work if you don't have the mechanics to start the probe production/not lose.
XxxKennyxxX
Profile Joined November 2009
United States18 Posts
December 07 2009 04:51 GMT
#40
right I'll try this. thanks hot bid!!
so have around 1-3 groups and do a 1a2a3a and with constant prduction.
hope I don't get owned
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