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Hi, Im a D protoss, i havnt been playing starcraft that much and im not that good at it.
I recently played against a D+ zerg on destination, heres the rep
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=25810
I thought i was doing really well, having around 5 control groups of units, but when i engaged my units got completely melted.
I think it may be because i had really bad unit placement near the start, and therefore VERY delayed tech because i couldnt place my gate at my nat -_-.
I also didnt expand much, going to my mineral only and not my third gas base, i didnt put down many gates either and wasnt doing any harassment(i sent out DTs, but they got owned by hydras).
What do i need to improve to win? Should i focus more on my macro and definitely get better building placements?
Thanks 
Mod Edit: I changed the title of this thread from [H] how did i lose to this? desti pvz
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First of all, try not to lose your scouting probe so quickly. He only made 2 lings... also, your build was just really inefficient. Generally, there's no point in getting your gas before your Gateway, since there's no way to spend it until you get a Core anyway. So yeah, better building placement would've helped you.
Also, if you're not going Sair/Reaver or dual Stargates, you definitely need to get your Citadel up a lot faster than that. Basically, you've got to work on your build orders for sure. As a result of your inefficient build your Corsair was out *really* late - if he'd gone 3 hatch Muta or something then you would've died right there.
You're getting a fair amount of Corsairs (that is to say, investing quite a bit in terms of resources) but you're getting them picked off - keep them together, since once you get 6+ you don't have to worry about scourge very much.
Constant probe production...
At 11:30, he has more supply than you. That should almost *never* ever happen.
Basically, you're letting him build up with no pressure from you at all. If you do let him build up, then you'd better storm like crazy... but you allowed his Mutas to snipe quite a few HTs and you probably could've tossed another 5-6 storms in that large clash.
So yeah, definitely work on building placement and build orders, because you were already behind by the time you guys clashed for the first time. Micro could have been better but really your problem was with macro and inefficient build.
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Looked through the replay and two major fixes are required before looking at late game problems.
First is your build order isn't correct.
Second your probe saturation is crap. 12 probes on each mineral line is about equivalent to a one base income. Learn to 0p9p. Once you do that you will see you have tons of stockpiled minerals that can be put towards more gateways, units, and expansions.
In this game he just sat on his 3 gas vs your undersaturated two bases and a-moved against your tiny army.
Once you fix those then you can start looking at your 3rd base timing and late game problems more.
edit: If you want a single thing to work on in your next dozen games, it's 0p9p.
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Braavos36374 Posts
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:
For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.
Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.
If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.
You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.
Enjoy your C rank.
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Braavos36374 Posts
Now that I have taught 90% of D Protoss players how to macro, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Hot_Bid.
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Haha ... oh Hot_Bid ... nice guide =).
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I think that's super good advice; I was having problems with my pvz(and, I suppose, all of my matchups in retrospect), when I analyzed my replays I realised my probe production fell behind hard midgame and my pylon timing was awful. So I worked on just probes and gate macro and pylons, never letting myself get stuck for psi, and i've already made a marked improvement. I'm gonna continue to work on this, cause it's not perfect yet, but it's actually a really rewarding feeling, you can seriously feel yourself getting better, faster and more on top of the game. A great way to learn the basics or(like me) chip the rust away after a few years off.
Thanks Hot_Bid!
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knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro
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Braavos36374 Posts
On December 06 2009 19:20 lazz wrote:
knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro
this is not important at D level. knowing where skipping probes at certain build timings is important at higher ranks, but a lower level player shouldn't worry about this, because they already have enough trouble just keeping constant probe production
thus, my advice to you and to the people reading this thread is just make as many probes as you can
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Ah i see, i thought my probe saturation was non-existant when i briefly saw my mineral line during the game. I will definitely practice my build orders and macro. thanks for all the tips guys :D
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On December 06 2009 19:20 lazz wrote:
knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro
Oh god, this is what gets me when I play zerg. I'm not used to having to choose between workers and combat units and my proportions/timings of production of each are probably way off, killing my macro.
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I can't tell if this entire thread is sarcastic or not
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On December 06 2009 16:13 Hot_Bid wrote:
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:
For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.
Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.
If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.
You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.
Enjoy your C rank.
What Hot_bid says here is 100% correct !!!
I cant stress it enough either: make probes and units all the time.
If you're building probes and units all the time non-stop you can reach C+ in 2 weeks.
I know it sounds weird and unbelievable to many beginners but if you macro like that almost perfectly, then you dont even need micro @ D lvl. Even if he kills more units then you do every fight and ur loosing alot more units then you feel you should lose, you will win anyway because you make like 3 times more units and you can just 1a2a3a ur way to win with proper macro.
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On December 06 2009 16:13 Hot_Bid wrote:
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:
For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.
Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.
If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.
You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.
Enjoy your C rank.
Great guide hot_bid...
but playing korean hours, I doubt one can get out of D+ with just this...
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On December 06 2009 16:13 Hot_Bid wrote:
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:
For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.
Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.
If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.
You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.
Enjoy your C rank.
Does Hot_Bid's advice still apply to D/D+ Terran macro? When I play Terran, if I don't at least siege and mine up in TvP, or stim before engaging Zerg in TvZ, I'd get owned. Can I afford to solely macro if I play Terran at the D level?
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is awesome32274 Posts
No with T you need to baby sit your army a lot. An army of 12 tanks and 24 vults unsieged and unmined will die easily to a protoss army of equal force.
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On December 06 2009 19:46 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 19:20 lazz wrote:
knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro this is not important at D level. knowing where skipping probes at certain build timings is important at higher ranks, but a lower level player shouldn't worry about this, because they already have enough trouble just keeping constant probe production thus, my advice to you and to the people reading this thread is just make as many probes as you can
but after 10min into the game, you would have far too much probes, don't i?
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On December 07 2009 03:07 IntoTheWow wrote:
No with T you need to baby sit your army a lot. An army of 12 tanks and 24 vults unsieged and unmined will die easily to a protoss army of equal force.
D Terran's woes...
On the other hand, I watched the replay. Easily your biggest problem is just not producing enough workers. I see you hotkeyed your nexus's to 0 and 9, but you didn't use that to help you build more workers. I'd suggest practicing macro either against a comp, or making a LAN game and dumping your computer opponent, so you can just practice building units by yourself.
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As an alternative to 0 and 9 for nexus'(nexii?), try using screen hotkeys (f2,f3,f4) for your bases. Lets you switch between them to respond to harassment much easier, also helps especially in pvz because you frequently have to build buildings in different bases to defend from harassment (lategame pvz always try to have a gateway and a robo at each mining expansion.) Plus this lets you keep your hand on the left side of the keyboard for pretty much everything except for building probes (gotta hop to p). But yeah, then use 5-0 for gateways and get really good at going 5d6d7d8d9d0d or 5z6z7z8z9z0z. It's kind of a stretch but its really handy because you can at least have partial macro cycles while never having your eyes off the battle. When you have a shit-ton of gateways (late game pvt) expand this idea to having 6 centered at one cluster of gateways, 7 at another, 8 at another. That way you can double hit 6 run a round of gateways, double hit 7 run a round of gateways, etc etc (you can also use alt+6). Once you get good at macro you'll have 200 apm and people will be like "wahh" and start making threads about why'd they lose to you. Then you just have to figure out expansion timings and micro and you'll be gosu.
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On December 07 2009 03:07 IntoTheWow wrote:
No with T you need to baby sit your army a lot. An army of 12 tanks and 24 vults unsieged and unmined will die easily to a protoss army of equal force.
agreed. u can even be ahead in supply and still lose in that case.
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One thing that I might add on to hot_bid's post is when you rewatch the replay dont just mindlessly look at the rep just to see when your nexus is idle. Think when watching. Why was your nexus idle. It might be something obvious like you were doing something else like microing. So next time you're microing you know oh im going to forget to build probes so then you can go 0p9p during that time. Its a difference knowing oh my nexus was idle and my nexus was idle because i was busy microing. Its something you have to break your rhythm to get down.
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Braavos36374 Posts
On December 07 2009 03:49 SkytoM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 19:46 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 06 2009 19:20 lazz wrote:
knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro this is not important at D level. knowing where skipping probes at certain build timings is important at higher ranks, but a lower level player shouldn't worry about this, because they already have enough trouble just keeping constant probe production thus, my advice to you and to the people reading this thread is just make as many probes as you can but after 10min into the game, you would have far too much probes, don't i?
i agree that at some point late game you should stop making workers, but i doubt any D protoss ever loses because they made too many. over-producing probes is a "good" problem at these low ranks. once you start losing games because of it you're already C-.
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well probably by the time u stop making probes out of sheer apm constraints, up to ~ 100 - 120 supply you'll be just fine with regards to probe production
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even if it's not supposed to be a problem at d level, when do you stop building probes? just because you got to c- doesn't mean you magically suddenly know when to stop building probes..
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The way I see it, it that you will rarely have more than 3 bases fully saturated. I make enough probes so that I am able to fully saturate 3 bases, because when I get my 4th up my main is basically out, and I can transfer probes. When I take my 5th, my nat is usually mined out, so I can transfer probes. Most often you will have 3 bases mining simultaneously mid-late game, so I stop there. Of course you take in the amount of probes you lost from harass and stuff as well, and make more probes to compensate for that.
edit: also nice thread title change hot_bid lol
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Usually in PvT you stop building probes out of your first two bases when you get your third, though you can still get some more at your 3rd depending on what's going on. Then you resume probes when your 4th nexus is building until it is finished. However, it's important to replace probes you lose to harass etc. and all of this is assuming perfect probe production.
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Canada705 Posts
On December 07 2009 05:36 0neheart wrote:
even if it's not supposed to be a problem at d level, when do you stop building probes? just because you got to c- doesn't mean you magically suddenly know when to stop building probes..
yes, is there a magic number of probes per mineral patch or line?
i'm sure at some point, probe production isn't necessary.
i usually make only ~15-17 per line (10-12 on smaller lines), and they already run around, like move around the patch, go behind it, etc.
edit: i want to ask this question for all races too. i'm sure it's not the same, at least for me. i seem to make ~same number of SCVs as probes, but with zerg, i make much less, until later on the game.
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On December 06 2009 16:13 Hot_Bid wrote:
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:
For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.
Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.
If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.
You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.
Enjoy your C rank.
Absolute truth, at D/D+ rank just macro and 1a2a3a as toss, as long as you dont get pylon blocked and expo appropriately, you'll win everything
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On December 07 2009 06:26 nextstep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2009 05:36 0neheart wrote:
even if it's not supposed to be a problem at d level, when do you stop building probes? just because you got to c- doesn't mean you magically suddenly know when to stop building probes.. yes, is there a magic number of probes per mineral patch or line? i'm sure at some point, probe production isn't necessary. i usually make only ~15-17 per line (10-12 on smaller lines), and they already run around, like move around the patch, go behind it, etc. edit: i want to ask this question for all races too. i'm sure it's not the same, at least for me. i seem to make ~same number of SCVs as probes, but with zerg, i make much less, until later on the game.
i believe 25 workers per min line is the cutoff point where extreme diminishing returns kicks in. Assuming 3 bases fully saturated this comes out to 75 probes total, which is pretty much perfect. Assuming constant probe production you normally hit this around 10 minutes. Go to single player, turn on operation cwal, make 25 probes and look at it. Memorize what it looks like and then whenever you see that at a base in game, stop making probes there or send some elsewhere.
Or if you're really lazy, stop making probes when you're taking your 4th base (make more to compensate for harass).
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On December 07 2009 06:26 nextstep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2009 05:36 0neheart wrote:
even if it's not supposed to be a problem at d level, when do you stop building probes? just because you got to c- doesn't mean you magically suddenly know when to stop building probes.. yes, is there a magic number of probes per mineral patch or line? i'm sure at some point, probe production isn't necessary. i usually make only ~15-17 per line (10-12 on smaller lines), and they already run around, like move around the patch, go behind it, etc. edit: i want to ask this question for all races too. i'm sure it's not the same, at least for me. i seem to make ~same number of SCVs as probes, but with zerg, i make much less, until later on the game.
I don't play Protoss so I don't know exactly what is the optimal probe/scv count for Protoss/Terran but I know for sure that 15 probes is definitely not enough to fully saturate a typical 9patch min line for Protoss. I'm think it's something close to around 22-23 or so.
And with Zerg it should be the opposite... you make as much drones as you can early, then later make very little to no drones and pump combat units.
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On December 06 2009 21:30 3clipse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 19:20 lazz wrote:
knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro Oh god, this is what gets me when I play zerg. I'm not used to having to choose between workers and combat units and my proportions/timings of production of each are probably way off, killing my macro.
This is why I think zerg was harder to play in 2003 when most zerg games opened against a 2 gate or a 2 rax. Nowadays vs the FE openings you can pretty much drone constantly with a few specific exceptions that aren't that hard to figure out.
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On December 07 2009 03:07 IntoTheWow wrote:
No with T you need to baby sit your army a lot. An army of 12 tanks and 24 vults unsieged and unmined will die easily to a protoss army of equal force.
it works for D- terran
secret with terran is practicing having a lot of apm
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On December 07 2009 06:16 Muirhead wrote:
Usually in PvT you stop building probes out of your first two bases when you get your third, though you can still get some more at your 3rd depending on what's going on. Then you resume probes when your 4th nexus is building until it is finished. However, it's important to replace probes you lose to harass etc. and all of this is assuming perfect probe production.
when the crap do you take your third? 150 supply? that makes no sense. iccup rank please?
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On December 07 2009 09:16 foppa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2009 06:16 Muirhead wrote:
Usually in PvT you stop building probes out of your first two bases when you get your third, though you can still get some more at your 3rd depending on what's going on. Then you resume probes when your 4th nexus is building until it is finished. However, it's important to replace probes you lose to harass etc. and all of this is assuming perfect probe production. when the crap do you take your third? 150 supply? that makes no sense. iccup rank please?
it makes sense. at mid level you will need to cut probes when your 3rd goes up to get more gates up to prepare for a timing push (assuming a double expand before zealot speed). you can resume probes either after you are comfortable blocking a timing push or have already killed it or you know he is taking a 3rd or just not pushing you.
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On December 07 2009 03:07 IntoTheWow wrote:
No with T you need to baby sit your army a lot. An army of 12 tanks and 24 vults unsieged and unmined will die easily to a protoss army of equal force.
I've often gone trough D/D+ tosses with an a-move mid-game attack, it can be done (perfect macro), but depends on your build and early game damage you or your opponent have taken. But it is a bit harder with terran than with toss, yes.
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so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
2. never stop probe production.
3. don't get supply blocked
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Braavos36374 Posts
On December 07 2009 13:37 XxxKennyxxX wrote:
so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
1. never stop probe production.
2. don't get supply blocked
3. have a lot of stuff, attack
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On December 07 2009 05:36 0neheart wrote:
even if it's not supposed to be a problem at d level, when do you stop building probes? just because you got to c- doesn't mean you magically suddenly know when to stop building probes..
The problem isn't knowing when to stop building probes, it's getting the D mechanics up to the point where he can manage his army, macro out of gates, not miss pylons, and still saturate his probe line, most useful one out of those is the last two. Knowing doesn't work if you don't have the mechanics to start the probe production/not lose.
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right I'll try this. thanks hot bid!!
so have around 1-3 groups and do a 1a2a3a and with constant prduction.
hope I don't get owned
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don't worry, you won't; there's no way you can lose.
+ Show Spoiler +unless it's PvP of course.
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On December 07 2009 13:43 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2009 13:37 XxxKennyxxX wrote:
so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
1. never stop probe production.
2. don't get supply blocked
3. have a lot of stuff, attack
Flawless victory? Lol.
Fuck, I wish Zerg could do this. 
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On December 07 2009 17:01 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2009 13:43 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 07 2009 13:37 XxxKennyxxX wrote:
so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
1. never stop probe production.
2. don't get supply blocked
3. have a lot of stuff, attack Flawless victory? Lol. Fuck, I wish Zerg could do this.
It's not like ZvP is much more complicated, a very similar guide could be written to get zerg to C- level ZvP...
(assuming FE protoss)
1. never stop drone production (except for 2-6 early zerglings)
2. dont get supply blocked, account for possible overlord corsair snipe
3. after the 3 hat lair 5 hat hydra build is at the 5 hat hydra part, stop building drones, pump hydras
4. have a lot of stuff, attack
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Thanks for this thread, it's a good read. However, I do have a question regarding rallying. I tend not to use 0 9 8 7 etc for hotkeys because I tend to use those to hotkey a few gateways and then rally them to my choke or something. Is there a better way to rally so i can use my 0 9 8 7 keys? I use F2 for my main base macroing and F3 for my natural. I don't like the idea of erasing a set of hotkeys and then rehotkeying. Is this unavoidable?
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On December 07 2009 17:33 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2009 17:01 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On December 07 2009 13:43 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 07 2009 13:37 XxxKennyxxX wrote:
so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
1. never stop probe production.
2. don't get supply blocked
3. have a lot of stuff, attack Flawless victory? Lol. Fuck, I wish Zerg could do this. It's not like ZvP is much more complicated, a very similar guide could be written to get zerg to C- level ZvP... (assuming FE protoss) 1. never stop drone production (except for 2-6 early zerglings) 2. dont get supply blocked, account for possible overlord corsair snipe 3. after the 3 hat lair 5 hat hydra build is at the 5 hat hydra part, stop building drones, pump hydras 4. have a lot of stuff, attack
Knowing how to do a basic 5 hat hydra is nowhere near enough to get you to C- ZvP.
Jeez, edited that like 12 times.
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On December 07 2009 17:33 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2009 17:01 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On December 07 2009 13:43 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 07 2009 13:37 XxxKennyxxX wrote:
so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
1. never stop probe production.
2. don't get supply blocked
3. have a lot of stuff, attack Flawless victory? Lol. Fuck, I wish Zerg could do this. It's not like ZvP is much more complicated, a very similar guide could be written to get zerg to C- level ZvP... (assuming FE protoss) 1. never stop drone production (except for 2-6 early zerglings) 2. dont get supply blocked, account for possible overlord corsair snipe 3. after the 3 hat lair 5 hat hydra build is at the 5 hat hydra part, stop building drones, pump hydras 4. have a lot of stuff, attack
This only works if there are no templars, or the templars have no storms.
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On December 07 2009 17:38 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2009 17:33 Ftrunkz wrote:On December 07 2009 17:01 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On December 07 2009 13:43 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 07 2009 13:37 XxxKennyxxX wrote:
so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
1. never stop probe production.
2. don't get supply blocked
3. have a lot of stuff, attack Flawless victory? Lol. Fuck, I wish Zerg could do this. It's not like ZvP is much more complicated, a very similar guide could be written to get zerg to C- level ZvP... (assuming FE protoss) 1. never stop drone production (except for 2-6 early zerglings) 2. dont get supply blocked, account for possible overlord corsair snipe 3. after the 3 hat lair 5 hat hydra build is at the 5 hat hydra part, stop building drones, pump hydras 4. have a lot of stuff, attack This only works if there are no templars, or the templars have no storms.
just like the the protoss one only works if the person doesnt have lurkers and hydras/scourge sniping your obs, and only works if the terran has poor army positioning. Obviously some level of basic basic basic micro is implied here -_-.
Anyway this is really off topic and im regretting my original post now, either way hotbids advice as everyone has said is pure gold to anyone that doesnt know it, or does and doesnt practice it.
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On December 07 2009 17:01 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2009 13:43 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 07 2009 13:37 XxxKennyxxX wrote:
so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
1. never stop probe production.
2. don't get supply blocked
3. have a lot of stuff, attack Flawless victory? Lol. Fuck, I wish Zerg could do this.
I'm pretty sure zerg can do this. Replace never stop making probes with never have 3 larvae at a hatchery, at least for the first 7 minutes or so, and you're almost set. Almost every zerg rep that I've seen posted on the strat forum is guilty of not doing this. It won't do quite as much for you as for protoss, but you'll still improve significantly.
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Center the discussion in macro issues plz. Its better than race balance, really?
Im wondering about the real need of F's for macro, i believe that make clusters of gway in late game and hotkey for a center gway its faster and easy. And switch hotkeys all the time its the korean way. Also, until the midgame you have a lot of "free" hotkeys number to use, and you dont need F`s. But of course, maybe im wrong about it.
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On December 06 2009 16:13 Hot_Bid wrote:
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:
For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.
Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.
If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.
You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.
Enjoy your C rank.
This should now be linked in every PvT/PvZ help thread from now on from a D- through D+ toss and the thread immediately closed lol
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Hot Bid is totally right. It's kinda *the* way to beat every Terran and other Protoss on low level because they have to Micro.
It's harder against Zerg tho.. Much harder if he's *half* decent (for a D+ player)... Lurkers, Mutas, mass Hydras make stuff more complicated :p. Suddenly you are the guy that has to micro in fights and be prepared for the gayness that are cloaked units, air units and mass hydras :p.
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On December 07 2009 17:33 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2009 17:01 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On December 07 2009 13:43 Hot_Bid wrote:On December 07 2009 13:37 XxxKennyxxX wrote:
so your saying I should practice like this:
1. the moment my zealots or whatever comes out I attack?
1. never stop probe production.
2. don't get supply blocked
3. have a lot of stuff, attack Flawless victory? Lol. Fuck, I wish Zerg could do this. It's not like ZvP is much more complicated, a very similar guide could be written to get zerg to C- level ZvP... (assuming FE protoss) 1. never stop drone production (except for 2-6 early zerglings) 2. dont get supply blocked, account for possible overlord corsair snipe 3. after the 3 hat lair 5 hat hydra build is at the 5 hat hydra part, stop building drones, pump hydras 4. have a lot of stuff, attack
It's just not that simple for Zerg, unlike protoss, zerg units are not immortal and need CONSTANT babysitting, if you look away one second and get stormed you lose a shitload units instantly.
And if you EVER try to a-move as zerg into a Terran or Protoss ball, you're fucked. You need immaculate flanking/swarming skills in order to break their ball of assrapage.
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or you just rally hydras and lurkers outside their nat while you expand across the entire map? sounds tough. don't forget to right click some scourge onto your overlords so you can auto-pilot and kill their detection.
(talking about D levels here)
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knowing when to build pylons and when to stop probe production is huge.
Also getting your third relatively safely is a huge factor. That third base will determine if you survive in the late game
Psi Storm is the great equalizer. Get storm tech and +50 temp energy upgrades and practice cloning storms.
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On December 08 2009 07:37 DreaM)XeRO wrote:
knowing when to build pylons and when to stop probe production is huge.
Also getting your third relatively safely is a huge factor. That third base will determine if you survive in the late game
Psi Storm is the great equalizer. Get storm tech and +50 temp energy upgrades and practice cloning storms.
if it's PvT make sure they're in a shuttle
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A questions regarding macro; I use 5-8 when hotkeying my gateways. Should I start selecting all the gateways with my mouse as soon as I add more? Or is it better to keep the hotkeys for the first four and then use the mouse for the remaining ones?
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hotkey the center gateway and double click that to get to your gateways
click z click d click t
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Awesome bump, you deserve a fucking gold star.
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also not good advice. -.-
if you're still using your mouse to click on unit icons...
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On December 07 2009 17:35 FoBuLouS wrote:
Thanks for this thread, it's a good read. However, I do have a question regarding rallying. I tend not to use 0 9 8 7 etc for hotkeys because I tend to use those to hotkey a few gateways and then rally them to my choke or something. Is there a better way to rally so i can use my 0 9 8 7 keys? I use F2 for my main base macroing and F3 for my natural. I don't like the idea of erasing a set of hotkeys and then rehotkeying. Is this unavoidable?
Don't worry using the F keys is the correct way to produce probes. all pro Ps use the F key method
assuming you produce gateways in pairs or occasionally 3s i find its best to simply hotkey them and then mouse over to your rally and set the rally point. ive watched a lot of pro fpvods and most of them seem to do this. if youre producing a shitload of gateways at once, or you need to mass reset your rally, you can use the F keys. set one F key to your rally, and one to your gateways. then hit gateway F key, click gate, hit rally F key, set rally. repeat. practice it a bit and it's really fast.
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EPT
