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1. Subject: Re: btw
Date: 6/26/09 13:19
SDM's final ruling:
Replay both game 1 and game 2. So go ahead and tell Fenix, I just emailed him too.
Do you see word final here or it's only mine vision?
2. During the game vs Fenix we had very many issues i didn't want to talk previously, since i didn't want to discuss that game, but about which i talk now:
a) We couldn't arrrange games during more then 2 weeks.
b) He wanted to play only between 23:00 CET and 04:00 CET. He coudldn't play other time due to his univercity. This time was unacceptable for me, because i usually sleep this time. Admin didn't do anything to deal with the problem.
c) When we, at last, met - we got straight lag in both games (even Fenix talked about that in the replay). Drop table appeared several times, so that is why i said the games are EVEN. Because if i dropped him game N1 when he got lead, he would have complainted either.
d) the last thing is about this game. I don't want to break out Valor rules, so i won't post replay here. Anyway i will just point out on our final position. If they cast replay you will see it yourself.
- upgrades. i have 1-1, he has 1-0. Both making 2 more.
- limits. I have 170, protoss has 142.
- high tech. His arbiter still not out, though his storms should be ready in 10 seconds.
- number of bases. I had 3 and 4-th just incoming. He had 3 and 2 just incoming. Though he had problems with probes, so some bases wouldn't work properly anyways.
- final point. In just 1 minute i collect 185 limit and go straight to 8 and 7 o clock bases. He would have had maximum 160-165 limit at this time, no statis, 3 stormers. It's not enough to hold such push. He can't counter with recall. Ofc such limit is not enough to counter just by ground. The game would be finished in 3 or 5 mins maximum i'm pretty sure about that. So just... watch replay, make your own opinion.
and LG)Sabbath Argentina. July 01 2009 13:52. Posts 2268
I won't return to the tournament even if they give me 1-0 lead or autowin. I already made decision.
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i feel the drama coming back, oh shit lol
ps. strelok i wanted to see you win ;( so that's why i said that
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haha u pussy! be a man and just play the series again stop whining like a biatch
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bad communication ftl  , , , ,
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Good work from Tasteless completely DODGING the issue here. Tasteless completely leaves out SDM`s decision here, and that he infact made one, and that it has the wording "final"
Clearly Tasteless should have talked to SDM before making a video to "clear" things up
I understand Strelok in this situation, and the more this developes, the more it seems to be a larger error done by GOM. Now they cant only blame Lipton, who I can understand isnt a starcraft player or admin, but SDM should know how things work. Then Tasteless releasing a video making Him (Valor) look good, and Strelok look bad, and yet he doesnt include the facts. Good job
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On July 01 2009 16:11 Strelok. wrote:+ Show Spoiler +1. Subject: Re: btw
Date: 6/26/09 13:19
SDM's final ruling:
Replay both game 1 and game 2. So go ahead and tell Fenix, I just emailed him too.
Do you see word final here or it's only mine vision?
2. During the game vs Fenix we had very many issues i didn't want to talk previously, since i didn't want to discuss that game, but about which i talk now:
a) We couldn't arrrange games during more then 2 weeks.
b) He wanted to play only between 23:00 CET and 04:00 CET. He coudldn't play other time due to his univercity. This time was unacceptable for me, because i usually sleep this time. Admin didn't do anything to deal with the problem.
c) When we, at last, met - we got straight lag in both games (even Fenix talked about that in the replay). Drop table appeared several times, so that is why i said the games are EVEN. Because if i dropped him game N1 when he got lead, he would have complainted either.
d) the last thing is about this game. I don't want to break out Valor rules, so i won't post replay here. Anyway i will just point out on our final position. If they cast replay you will see it yourself.
- upgrades. i have 1-1, he has 1-0. Both making 2 more.
- limits. I have 170, protoss has 142.
- high tech. His arbiter still not out, though his storms should be ready in 10 seconds.
- number of bases. I had 3 and 4-th just incoming. He had 3 and 2 just incoming. Though he had problems with probes, so some bases wouldn't work properly anyways.
- final point. In just 1 minute i collect 185 limit and go straight to 8 and 7 o clock bases. He would have had maximum 160-165 limit at this time, no statis, 3 stormers. It's not enough to hold such push. He can't counter with recall. Ofc such limit is not enough to counter just by ground. The game would be finished in 3 or 5 mins maximum i'm pretty sure about that. So just... watch replay, make your own opinion.
and LG)Sabbath Argentina. July 01 2009 13:52. Posts 2268
I won't return to the tournament even if they give me 1-0 lead or autowin. I already made decision.
pretty much what i expected, thank you for clarifying.
Valor staff dropped the ball imo, and sadly although i know tasteless was trying to do what should have been done in the first place, he never should have retracted SDM's decision, even if it was the wrong one.
all they can do now, is apologize to both players for the debacle and make sure this never happens again, or work something out with both players, although highly unlikely.
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That was a pretty weak video. It subtly makes Strelok out to be a liar on the 'final ruling' subject even though he is not, and doesn't mention anything about Daniels decision. Talks as if Lipton is doing a fine job being appointed to run a tournament without any refereeing skills when I would consider that maybe _the_ most important attribute of his whole job.
At the same time I'm definitely of the opinion that when you make a bad decision, final ruling or not, you HAVE to overturn it. That's how we do things on TL without having an ego too big to admit our mistakes. Lesser sites and tournaments identify themselves with big egos and standing by dumbass decisions even when proven wrong. If you can set something right you set it right. The first decision was clearly wrong and utmost respect for overturning it. I really do not understand Streloks decision on quitting the tournament after they reached the best decision possible. Of course it's not good for Valor to over-turn decision but I firmly believe it is much worse to stand by your bad ones.
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On July 01 2009 17:09 Etherone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2009 16:11 Strelok. wrote:+ Show Spoiler +1. Subject: Re: btw
Date: 6/26/09 13:19
SDM's final ruling:
Replay both game 1 and game 2. So go ahead and tell Fenix, I just emailed him too.
Do you see word final here or it's only mine vision?
2. During the game vs Fenix we had very many issues i didn't want to talk previously, since i didn't want to discuss that game, but about which i talk now:
a) We couldn't arrrange games during more then 2 weeks.
b) He wanted to play only between 23:00 CET and 04:00 CET. He coudldn't play other time due to his univercity. This time was unacceptable for me, because i usually sleep this time. Admin didn't do anything to deal with the problem.
c) When we, at last, met - we got straight lag in both games (even Fenix talked about that in the replay). Drop table appeared several times, so that is why i said the games are EVEN. Because if i dropped him game N1 when he got lead, he would have complainted either.
d) the last thing is about this game. I don't want to break out Valor rules, so i won't post replay here. Anyway i will just point out on our final position. If they cast replay you will see it yourself.
- upgrades. i have 1-1, he has 1-0. Both making 2 more.
- limits. I have 170, protoss has 142.
- high tech. His arbiter still not out, though his storms should be ready in 10 seconds.
- number of bases. I had 3 and 4-th just incoming. He had 3 and 2 just incoming. Though he had problems with probes, so some bases wouldn't work properly anyways.
- final point. In just 1 minute i collect 185 limit and go straight to 8 and 7 o clock bases. He would have had maximum 160-165 limit at this time, no statis, 3 stormers. It's not enough to hold such push. He can't counter with recall. Ofc such limit is not enough to counter just by ground. The game would be finished in 3 or 5 mins maximum i'm pretty sure about that. So just... watch replay, make your own opinion.
and LG)Sabbath Argentina. July 01 2009 13:52. Posts 2268
I won't return to the tournament even if they give me 1-0 lead or autowin. I already made decision. pretty much what i expected, thank you for clarifying. Valor staff dropped the ball imo, and sadly although i know tasteless was trying to do what should have been done in the first place, he never should have retracted SDM's decision, even if it was the wrong one. all they can do now, is apologize to both players for the debacle and make sure this never happens again, or work something out with both players, although highly unlikely.
and never ever chose a admin that got noooooooooo idea about the game he is supposed to refree...
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im surprised Strelok wasn't able to formulate this kind of solution to such a common problem in online-tournament play.
I'm sure he's had to deal w/ this problem, as has everyone i'm sure at one point or another.
It makes pretty easy sense.
If you win game 1 - 1-0.
Game 2 is conducted, yet disconnect occurs and a winner isn't clear (regardless of score), so game 2 has to be replayed and go from there.
Kinda senseless to have to either a) go from 1-1 and go to game 3 or b) start at 0-0 and re-do the whole series.
Should be simple to determine that its just still 1-0 for Fenix and go from there.
Apparently it was just confusion which lead to this, or w/e..
but it is kinda weird for Strelok to drop out of the tournament after making it to RO8.. he was in good running for being in the finals or winner of Valor.
Like tasteless said - it was his choice.
Tasteless, you rock!
gL w/ the rest of valor!!
gL
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On July 01 2009 13:03 tree.hugger wrote:
It all makes sense.
Except the decision to film it outside on the busy street. Would it have been really sketchy to film it in a quieter room? I think this should be the new controversy.
rofl :D
i like tasteless. im sorry that this happened, i mean he and SDM put a lot of work into it, sucks. on the other hand, who is lipton and why dont they let someone collect the replays who can actually use his brain when something like this comes up? go on to game 3 or replay the first is just stupid sry, i will nver understand how he could suggest that lol
€: whoops, just read streloks post. lol ok now i can understand strelok, but still u should have just replayed the match. nice dodge with the fnal decision though, yeah
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On July 01 2009 17:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
That was a pretty weak video. It subtly makes Strelok out to be a liar on the 'final ruling' subject even though he is not, and doesn't mention anything about Daniels decision. Talks as if Lipton is doing a fine job being appointed to run a tournament without any refereeing skills when I would consider that maybe _the_ most important attribute of his whole job.
At the same time I'm definitely of the opinion that when you make a bad decision, final ruling or not, you HAVE to overturn it. That's how we do things on TL without having an ego too big to admit our mistakes. Lesser sites and tournaments identify themselves with big egos and standing by dumbass decisions even when proven wrong. If you can set something right you set it right. The first decision was clearly wrong and utmost respect for overturning it. I really do not understand Streloks decision on quitting the tournament after they reached the best decision possible. Of course it's not good for Valor to over-turn decision but I firmly believe it is much worse to stand by your bad ones.
Agree completely on all these points. Tasteless' video doesn't really explain the situation and pretty much leaves out the fact that SDM made an initial ruling as well that was then changed. This is precisely why the person admining a tournament absolutely MUST have game knowledge/referee experience (sadly I'm aware that even with events as large as national WCG qualifiers this is not the case).
If Strelok quit because of the scheduling/lag problems which he felt were not being addressed, that's one thing, but I also agree that he should respect the fact that in the end the most equitable decision was reached and go from there.
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On July 01 2009 17:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:+ Show Spoiler +That was a pretty weak video. It subtly makes Strelok out to be a liar on the 'final ruling' subject even though he is not, and doesn't mention anything about Daniels decision. Talks as if Lipton is doing a fine job being appointed to run a tournament without any refereeing skills when I would consider that maybe _the_ most important attribute of his whole job.
At the same time I'm definitely of the opinion that when you make a bad decision, final ruling or not, you HAVE to overturn it. That's how we do things on TL without having an ego too big to admit our mistakes. Lesser sites and tournaments identify themselves with big egos and standing by dumbass decisions even when proven wrong. If you can set something right you set it right. The first decision was clearly wrong and utmost respect for overturning it. I really do not understand Streloks decision on quitting the tournament after they reached the best decision possible. Of course it's not good for Valor to over-turn decision but I firmly believe it is much worse to stand by your bad ones.
I disagree to a certain extent, the second SDM someone who is presented as qualified to make these decisions does so he should be held 100% accountable for them. I also believe that if he is to keep his status in this tournament as someone who can make these calls it imperative that they not overturn the decision.
Seeing as they clearly did overturn it, Valor staff should then have apologized publicly and appointed someone who is capable of making these decisions to that task, and tried to reach an understanding with strelok. This was not done ( they, in fact, did the opposite)
I understand the second Tasteless saw the ruling he had to overturn it, simply because it was embarrassing at best to have them replay the whole series based on one d/c, but he did not address the lag and time issues, which was probably the basis for SDM to decide the whole series be replayed.
honestly i have to side with strelok, this has been a fiasco although i really appreciate all the work being put in by tasteless, SDM, Lipton etc. it does not change the fact that this was and still is being handled the wrong way.
tl;dr Big mistake, badly handled, they should apologize, try to work it over with the players and stick with Tasteless's new ruling.
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Perfect explanation from tasteless, it clears everything up.
It is generally entirely legitimate in any organised setting to reverse previous decisions, even decisions that have been 'finalised', as long as the new decision is the correct one and the old one was wrong. It is unjust to preserve bad arrangements/decisions just on the grounds that they were 'finalised', if indeed they were finalised. Thus you can appeal court decisions, the laws of a country can be changed, and so forth. I am not overly familiar with sporting organisation but the same principle should apply. The procedures might have appeared disorganised, but I prefer disorganised justice to organised injustice.
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On July 01 2009 17:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
That was a pretty weak video. It subtly makes Strelok out to be a liar on the 'final ruling' subject even though he is not, and doesn't mention anything about Daniels decision. Talks as if Lipton is doing a fine job being appointed to run a tournament without any refereeing skills when I would consider that maybe _the_ most important attribute of his whole job.
At the same time I'm definitely of the opinion that when you make a bad decision, final ruling or not, you HAVE to overturn it. That's how we do things on TL without having an ego too big to admit our mistakes. Lesser sites and tournaments identify themselves with big egos and standing by dumbass decisions even when proven wrong. If you can set something right you set it right. The first decision was clearly wrong and utmost respect for overturning it. I really do not understand Streloks decision on quitting the tournament after they reached the best decision possible. Of course it's not good for Valor to over-turn decision but I firmly believe it is much worse to stand by your bad ones.
Well written, I fully agree. The video was more than weak and totally unprofessional. At LEAST, an apology would have been appropriate. No one is perfect, so just admit it.
Nevertheless, I would suggest Strelok to re-join the tournament (an apology would probably help?).
Last but not least: Artosis's role in this whole plot is rather unfortunate.
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if the game was really as strelkok described it I can understand his anger, though..
It all depends on what the game looked like right after the disc..
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Okay, this is just getting annoying now, why don't the admins just open a stickied thread in the Tourney forum labelled "Valor Drama". Atleast then this garbage would be stored in one single thread and not in spread out in 5 diffrent ones.
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I'm wary about blaming SDM because per Tasteless and SDM (they've said this many times in the past) they do not watch replays until they are "casting" because they don't want to ruin the ending. Perhaps SDM was given the situation by the Admin and made a decision based on "facts" misunderstood by said Admin. SDM, to my knowledge, didn't see the replays and cannot be accountable for making a decision based on false intel.
Also, who sent the email saying "SDM's Final Decision"? SDM? Or the admin?
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i read a bit in the other thread and here and wanted to state my opinion. i quote this which has imo a good point i want to talk about from the other thread:
On June 30 2009 09:56 Liquid`NonY wrote:
the whole idea that there is some magical moral property to a "final decision" that everyone must stick to is ridiculous. mistakes can be made. situations can be re-evaluated. i'm surprised that eSports fans get upset when a tournament is willing to admit they messed up on their final decision so that they can do what's best for the tournament. if anyone should get upset, it'd be someone like a businessman in his suit and tie who is sponsoring it and cares more about reputation than fair play.
the mistake which i see in this case is that it should be clear which policy you follow from the beginning to the end and in this case you should not use the word "final" and let players rely on that if you dont mean "final".
you can follow the tournament policy/paragraph:
- there will never be something like a final decision. the judges and organizers keep the right reserved to anytime change a decision (if you think this fits more the spirit of esport)
or
- there will be a final decision and you got to live and adapt to the consequences. e.g. letting other people be the referee if there are to many bad decisions etc.
and you gotta accept this if you play in the tournament. but saying yes and no or no and yes in terms of the policy you handle the tournament while it already begun sux imo.
but mistakes are normal to happen and np if you adapt. i think everybody knows that neither tasteless, artrosis or sdm have bad intentions or are biased to one of the players. i am thankful to the contributions they make to this community.
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The problem here is that this is supposed to be a professional tournament run by a pro-gaming organization. This is not people meeting up to run a tourney for their friends. When you're an organization that runs pro tournaments, a disconnection is a pretty common situation that you're supposed to be prepared for. It is mind-boggling that they didn't see something like this coming and didn't have someone who could handle it immediately.
On July 01 2009 17:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
At the same time I'm definitely of the opinion that when you make a bad decision, final ruling or not, you HAVE to overturn it. That's how we do things on TL without having an ego too big to admit our mistakes. Lesser sites and tournaments identify themselves with big egos and standing by dumbass decisions even when proven wrong. If you can set something right you set it right. The first decision was clearly wrong and utmost respect for overturning it. I really do not understand Streloks decision on quitting the tournament after they reached the best decision possible. Of course it's not good for Valor to over-turn decision but I firmly believe it is much worse to stand by your bad ones.
The overturning of decisions is just a display of lack of integrity as an organization, where you don't have a rule that covers the case and you're evaluating on a case-by-case basis, which can result in bias. You can overturn it, and you probably have to, but the damage to your reputation is already done, and that was the whole point of Strelok's thread. Some people still think it was about the games, even after he said he wouldn't return even if they gave him the wins for free.
So the promise of a professional tournament run by a professional organization was clearly broken... it is understandable that Strelok is disappointed. Maybe he's just not in for the money, maybe he just wanted to be part of the pro scene for a while here and, the tournament being not what was promised, he had no reason to continue, as the prestige of winning it would be mostly if not completely gone.
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On July 01 2009 17:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
That was a pretty weak video. It subtly makes Strelok out to be a liar on the 'final ruling' subject even though he is not, and doesn't mention anything about Daniels decision. Talks as if Lipton is doing a fine job being appointed to run a tournament without any refereeing skills when I would consider that maybe _the_ most important attribute of his whole job.
At the same time I'm definitely of the opinion that when you make a bad decision, final ruling or not, you HAVE to overturn it. That's how we do things on TL without having an ego too big to admit our mistakes. Lesser sites and tournaments identify themselves with big egos and standing by dumbass decisions even when proven wrong. If you can set something right you set it right. The first decision was clearly wrong and utmost respect for overturning it. I really do not understand Streloks decision on quitting the tournament after they reached the best decision possible. Of course it's not good for Valor to over-turn decision but I firmly believe it is much worse to stand by your bad ones.
It should have gone like this way:
- After SDM decision games 1 and 2 should have played again (whatever happens to final score, be it Fenix or Strelok winning)
- Then if player complains about it later on (usually losing player to admin -> tasteless or SDM), tournament admins apologies later on publicly not players.
- If they don't then players get mad and there will be boycotts/rumors about tournament, even public accusisations (what happened this case).
- In short, make decision, stick to it and if its bad make statement where you say it was bad and its going to be fixed for next time/season.
This way players do not lose their reputation.
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EPT
