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Fomos, 5/23/09
SPL - Battle Royal Replaced by Shadow of Twilight
08 - 09 season R5 official maps announced
KeSPA announced the official maps for SPL 08 - 09 season R4 which begins on May 30.
Battle Royal has been replaced by Shadow of Twilight. Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. No change has been made on the other four maps.
Shadow of Twilight is a reverse ramp map like Neo Requiem.
Copyright (c) Fomos. All rights reserved.
Previous discussion on the change of Battle Royal:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93765
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Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map.
Lame, I liked that strat.
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I really don't see why they needed to make proxy hatch impossible on Medusa, but I'm glad to see BR gone...
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uh... shouldn't it be the player's job to keep tabs on whether he's being contained, rather than the e-sports administration's job to save them from enemy strats?
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The layout reminds me of reverse temple.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Show nested quote +Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat.
Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so.
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United States11390 Posts
Proxy hatches are awesome.
Sucks they got taken away.
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
NO
WHAT HAPPENED TO CENTRAL PLAINS =(
On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so.
Totally agree. I bet Bisu complained to KeSPA directly
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Haha, every Zerg to comment on this thread only commented on the proxy hatches on Medusa.
It's too bad they got rid of Battle Royale though, I didn't mind it. But I like ZvZ. 
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Hope Shadow of Twilight is good :x
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I hate to say it. But if you get contained then you deserve to have to deal with proxy hatches...
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
Proleague version of Byzantium... =(
At least release Central Plains so that we can play on ICCup!
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i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses
Bisu complained
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No point in having a map that is only playable in one matchup
Good riddance
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On May 23 2009 01:30 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses Bisu complained
Serously? wtf is sc comming to
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Obviously neo medusa was removed because kespa just looked at zerg's win percentage against bisu using the strategy and decided it was imbalanced.
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Let me get this right: They made a map where zerg can use infested terrans, but... they can't make a proxy hatch on Medusa? Lol, yeah ok... And here I was thinking zerg was using a good strategy, but now I come to find out the strategy is horribly imbalanced and they were abusing the game. I like the precedence this sets: if a race decides to only use 1 strategy every game, but another race developes a good counter to this, they can alter the map instead of encouraging more diverse and entertaining strategies. Bah.
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:34 Nytefish wrote:
Obviously neo medusa was removed because kespa just looked at zerg's win percentage against bisu using the strategy and decided it was imbalanced.
Yeah
Bisu 0-1 Zerg on Neo Medusa
imba
On May 23 2009 01:35 MachineHead wrote:
Let me get this right: They made a map where zerg can use infested terrans, but... they can't make a proxy hatch on Medusa? Lol, yeah ok... And here I was thinking zerg was using a good strategy, but now I come to find out the strategy is horribly imbalanced and they were abusing the game. I like the precedence this sets: if a race decides to only use 1 strategy every game, but another race developes a good counter to this, they can alter the map instead of encouraging more diverse and entertaining strategies. Bah.
You can proxy hatch on Holy World fyi
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If proxy hatch is such a fun strat, I don't see why the zerg players can't try it on another map. It's not like KeSPA forbade it.
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My thought is WTF proxy hatchs gone?!?! That was the most entertaining part of Neo Medusa.
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On May 23 2009 01:35 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:34 Nytefish wrote:
Obviously neo medusa was removed because kespa just looked at zerg's win percentage against bisu using the strategy and decided it was imbalanced. Yeah Bisu 0-1 Zerg on Neo Medusa imba Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:35 MachineHead wrote:
Let me get this right: They made a map where zerg can use infested terrans, but... they can't make a proxy hatch on Medusa? Lol, yeah ok... And here I was thinking zerg was using a good strategy, but now I come to find out the strategy is horribly imbalanced and they were abusing the game. I like the precedence this sets: if a race decides to only use 1 strategy every game, but another race developes a good counter to this, they can alter the map instead of encouraging more diverse and entertaining strategies. Bah. You can proxy hatch on Holy World fyi
Exactly... what happens if zergs decide to start using this strategy on more maps, and have the same success?
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does that mean they made neo medusa impossible for terran again?
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:38 MachineHead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:35 konadora wrote:On May 23 2009 01:34 Nytefish wrote:
Obviously neo medusa was removed because kespa just looked at zerg's win percentage against bisu using the strategy and decided it was imbalanced. Yeah Bisu 0-1 Zerg on Neo Medusa imba On May 23 2009 01:35 MachineHead wrote:
Let me get this right: They made a map where zerg can use infested terrans, but... they can't make a proxy hatch on Medusa? Lol, yeah ok... And here I was thinking zerg was using a good strategy, but now I come to find out the strategy is horribly imbalanced and they were abusing the game. I like the precedence this sets: if a race decides to only use 1 strategy every game, but another race developes a good counter to this, they can alter the map instead of encouraging more diverse and entertaining strategies. Bah. You can proxy hatch on Holy World fyi Exactly... what happens if zergs decide to start using this strategy on more maps, and have the same success?
I'm pretty sure they won't remove Holy World because it's like the main map of Bacchus, as well as the fact that it's not a Proleague map. I don't really see proxy hatch working well on other maps other than Neo Medusa (not anymore  ) and Holy World because of the way the maps are designed.
On May 23 2009 01:39 Sunyveil wrote:
does that mean they made neo medusa impossible for terran again?
Turrets/supply depots should be okay, hatcheries shouldn't be. I'll check fomos and clear this up.
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On May 23 2009 01:30 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses Bisu complained
LOL KNEW IT (admins check my first post before edit )
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Kespa keeps disappointing more and more. New strats are invented because of new maps. They keep maps like Katrina for 2 seasons but give no time to Battle Royal and Medusa? Lame imo.
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Seems okay change, BUT now there is going to be zvz @ gods garden. Don't know if this was correct move...
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
Okay they only said 'hatchery' can't be built.. guess we'll have to wait until the 29th when KeSPA releases the map.. or somebody leaks it earlier.
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Damn glad Battle Royal is gone. I don't have anything against the ZvZ matchup, but I'm not a fan of a map in which there's only one viable race pick most of the time.
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:42 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
Seems okay change, BUT now there is going to be zvz @ gods garden. Don't know if this was correct move...
Yeah but at least there are more T and P appearances on God's Garden than there ever would have been if Battle Royal was kept.
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How can such a risky play like a proxy hatchery be deemed so unfair that it warrants removal by the sanctioning body?
It's like saying 4 pool has too much potential for success on 3 player maps with short rush distances (think July's golden mouse OSL final) so we're going to put neutral buildings all over the place so toss can turtle up long enough to steamroll the zerg.
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its okay zerg to make map less zerg friendly imo
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On May 23 2009 01:42 Gliche wrote:
Kespa keeps disappointing more and more. New strats are invented because of new maps. They keep maps like Katrina for 2 seasons but give no time to Battle Royal and Medusa? Lame imo.
I don't think this makes sense. You say 'New strats are invented because of new maps'. They bring in a new map (Shadow of Twilight) to replace a comparatively old map (Battle Royal). And yet you complain this is a bad thing?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
jesus christ..
If proxy hatching is considered some kind of map imbalance than I have no fucking clue what they are thinking. Terran and protoss have been proxy building for fucking YEARS on everymap EVER and z does it once and we get it removed.. rofl.
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:45 number1gog wrote:
How can such a risky play like a proxy hatchery be deemed so unfair that it warrants removal by the sanctioning body?
It's like saying 4 pool has too much potential for success on 3 player maps with short rush distances (think July's golden mouse OSL final) so we're going to put neutral buildings all over the place so toss can turtle up long enough to steamroll the zerg.
Uh.. July's 5 pool (not 4 pool) was on Othello, 4 player map. And July and Best were in diagonal positions... Best should have won if he had not decided to be funny and build gateways outside =.="
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:46 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:42 Gliche wrote:
Kespa keeps disappointing more and more. New strats are invented because of new maps. They keep maps like Katrina for 2 seasons but give no time to Battle Royal and Medusa? Lame imo. I don't think this makes sense. You say 'New strats are invented because of new maps'. They bring in a new map (Shadow of Twilight) to replace a comparatively old map (Battle Royal). And yet you complain this is a bad thing?
He was referring that sentence to Neo Medusa...
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On May 23 2009 01:48 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:45 number1gog wrote:
How can such a risky play like a proxy hatchery be deemed so unfair that it warrants removal by the sanctioning body?
It's like saying 4 pool has too much potential for success on 3 player maps with short rush distances (think July's golden mouse OSL final) so we're going to put neutral buildings all over the place so toss can turtle up long enough to steamroll the zerg. Uh.. July's 5 pool (not 4 pool) was on Othello, 4 player map. And July and Best were in diagonal positions... Best should have won if he had not decided to be funny and build gateways outside =.="
Man my starcraft history sucks..... Maybe it was.... I dunno. I give up.
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United States13143 Posts
I like the removing BR, and I actually like Shades of Twilight. But then, I like watching games on Byzantium. I just wish that Shades of Twilight was, y'know, twilight. There are no twilight maps in PL right now and it feels wrong to me. EDIT: Except Medusa. I am dumb.
Why is KeSPA so obsessed with keeping some form of Medusa? Just get rid of the damn thing and put Central Plains or something in instead of constantly modifying it.
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:30 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses Bisu complained
Wait......you can't be serious. That's fucking lame -___- Proxy hatches were so cool, sucks that they removed it.
Battle Royal was a nice concept map, but too bad it was mostly zvzs and we didn't see outside bases utilized as much =(
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Wait, why did they take away the proxy-hatch abilities on Neo Medusa.
The hell.
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United States11390 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:30 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses Bisu complained
Some things never change~
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:50 Elyvilon wrote:
There are no twilight maps in PL right now and it feels wrong to me.
Neo Medusa.. lol
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United States13143 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:53 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:50 Elyvilon wrote:
There are no twilight maps in PL right now and it feels wrong to me.
Neo Medusa.. lol
right I am dumb
On the other hand, I still want them to get rid of Medusa. It's had like 300 games across all its various forms and I'm tired of it.
Getting rid of Destination would be cool too.
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:57 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:53 konadora wrote:On May 23 2009 01:50 Elyvilon wrote:
There are no twilight maps in PL right now and it feels wrong to me.
Neo Medusa.. lol right I am dumb On the other hand, I still want them to get rid of Medusa. It's had like 300 games across all its various forms and I'm tired of it. Getting rid of Destination would be cool too.
Yeah seriously, I'm getting tired of Destination being used everywhere. Unless great does another proxy hatchery.
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Did anyone else notice that they changed Shades of Twilight a little? The 3rd used to be up a ramp and connected to the high ground with the nat. Now its in the same general spot but on the ground. It looks like they've made the ramp into the nat alot smaller as well
This is the old version from before PL R4
New version
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looks like Byzantium to me.
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 02:08 sixghost wrote:
Did anyone else notice that they changed Shades of Twilight a little? The 3rd used to be up a ramp and connected to the high ground with the nat. Now its in the same general spot but on the ground.
Yeah I just noticed.
Old Shades of Twilight:
New Shades of Twilight:
Notable changes:
- 3rd is now below the cliff
- 12, 3, 6 and 9 expos changed
- Ramps smaller
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On May 23 2009 01:58 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:57 Elyvilon wrote:On May 23 2009 01:53 konadora wrote:On May 23 2009 01:50 Elyvilon wrote:
There are no twilight maps in PL right now and it feels wrong to me.
Neo Medusa.. lol right I am dumb On the other hand, I still want them to get rid of Medusa. It's had like 300 games across all its various forms and I'm tired of it. Getting rid of Destination would be cool too. Yeah seriously, I'm getting tired of Destination being used everywhere. Unless great does another proxy hatchery.
im going to die if i have to ob another game of destination
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i shit my pants.
no proxy hatch?
WHY ON EARTH? It wasnt imba ffs, Bisu loses to it and it must be nerfed instantly
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Damn I was hoping for Central Plains to take over for it.
Oh well, BR was a cool map that showed its potential in 1, maybe 2 games. Shame.
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On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Show nested quote +Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat.
Pretty cool, I hated it.
And yay, perhpas we'll see less zvz for a change.
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United States12607 Posts
On May 23 2009 01:19 Mogwai wrote:
I really don't see why they needed to make proxy hatch impossible on Medusa, but I'm glad to see BR gone...
Agree - I don't see any reason this strategy is inherently "imbalanced". And since great used it on free and Bisu, I've been looking forward to how Protosses would respond to it if great or another Zerg tried it again. This is a lame change.
And I'm glad Battle Royal is gone, but it was sad to see in the map pool in the first place. Two seconds' examination is all any beginning SC player or fan would need to tell that Battle Royal would produce almost exclusively ZvZs...why the hell couldn't KeSPA figure this one out? It just seems like we haven't learned anything about Battle Royal that we didn't already know when it entered the map pool at the beginning of R4, which makes its original selection seem even dumber.
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On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so.
I remember enough zerg and terran bitching when toss was winning everything. I feel medusa is better now without proxy hatch, but with the other fixes.
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What the hell, man. Will they be making 5-hatch hydra illegal next? It's just a strategy.
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Proxy hatch wasn't that imba even Much broke out in GOM . You just need a balanced army with goons and a few reavers .... i hate this protoss and terran can proxy their shit all over the map , but when a potential proxy hatch strategy is used it gets fucked , because protoss sucks . Its the most underused strategy in the game and they ban it .... its stupid imo . If protoss are scared of getting hatch'd they should use reaver with a combination of ground army as their main strategy . Just like zerg figured out that proxy hatch is a good strategy on this map toss should figure a counter , but why bother its easier to just get it banned by Kespa ...stupid . Kespa keeps surpassing its failures with every day coming .
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United States11390 Posts
On May 23 2009 02:21 Gnojfatelob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so. I remember enough zerg and terran bitching when toss was winning everything. I feel medusa is better now without proxy hatch, but with the other fixes.
Yeah, because Neo Medusa really fixed a majority of the problems that already existed in tvp/tvz.
Also, Gorush tried to proxy hatch Backho in OSL. Backho breaks out ez.
Backho > Bisu?!?!?!
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On May 23 2009 01:26 konadora wrote:NO WHAT HAPPENED TO CENTRAL PLAINS =( Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so. Totally agree. I bet Bisu complained to KeSPA directly
rofl
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2009 02:12 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 02:08 sixghost wrote:
Did anyone else notice that they changed Shades of Twilight a little? The 3rd used to be up a ramp and connected to the high ground with the nat. Now its in the same general spot but on the ground. Yeah I just noticed. Old Shades of Twilight: New Shades of Twilight: Notable changes: - 3rd is now below the cliff - 12, 3, 6 and 9 expos changed - Ramps smaller
They also made the terrain unbuildable near the entrance below the natural. prolly to prevent the proxy hatches like neo medusa?
Agreed breaking out would be possible with a balanced army but the tosses don't want to change their strat. >.> is it me or is Kespa taking a larger and larger direct role in the outcome of games than ever before?
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On May 23 2009 02:21 Gnojfatelob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so. I remember enough zerg and terran bitching when toss was winning everything. I feel medusa is better now without proxy hatch, but with the other fixes.
Only terran complained a lot and with good reason , not being able to build and use the advantages of your race is stupid as fuck . Proxy hatch was hardly even used . They should bann all proxys too with that reasoning .
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
This new map is going to be hell for zergs.
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Shades of Twilight seems to be very bad for zergs.
It is only speculation at this point, of course, but it looks like it will be very difficult to muta harass on that map and the 3rd gas is sort of far away from the main, so harder for the zerg to secure. Looks like it will be another map where Jaedong is the only zerg to be able to win.
Edit: Not to mention the siegeable mineral line of the second and the smaller ramps, which are going to be a hell for zergs to break through.
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They haven't banned proxies...
They just made the middle of the map un-buildable. There is a huge difference.
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Good riddance to BR, we can finally have some fun proleague matches now.
Disallowing proxy-hatch is neomedusa seems really stupid to me. The only thing I can figure is that the strat was proving to be very imbalanced in practice games to a point where coaches needed to get involved. I don't really see why it wouldn't be beatable for prepared pros, but I'm not a pro.
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Anyone noticed that Shadow of Twilight no longer has two expos at the high ground :S
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United States11637 Posts
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On May 23 2009 02:40 uglymoose89 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 23 2009 02:12 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 02:08 sixghost wrote:
Did anyone else notice that they changed Shades of Twilight a little? The 3rd used to be up a ramp and connected to the high ground with the nat. Now its in the same general spot but on the ground. Yeah I just noticed. Old Shades of Twilight: New Shades of Twilight: Notable changes: - 3rd is now below the cliff - 12, 3, 6 and 9 expos changed - Ramps smaller They also made the terrain unbuildable near the entrance below the natural. prolly to prevent the proxy hatches like neo medusa? Agreed breaking out would be possible with a balanced army but the tosses don't want to change their strat. >.> is it me or is Kespa taking a larger and larger direct role in the outcome of games than ever before? No, there's 2 other ramps the Protoss could go down. Alot of the reason why the proxy hatch on medusa was so strong was because P could take their 3rd without needing much map control, so it gave the zerg a nice window to get the hatch up while toss took the min only. There's alot of other maps where you can proxy hatch, but you almost never see it.
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I think the most likely reason for the proxy hatch change on medusa is the maps ZvP stats being 14-5. This seems like a misguided change to me though, because proxy hatches aren't really to blame for that record - I think it's more zergs figuring out the pressure front -> break temples, pressure min only -> doom drop main strat, forcing toss to have defense everywhere. It's more just an issue of Zergs adapting to Medusa and Protoss not adapting back yet, I think.
Pretty sure the Shades of Twilight changes were to make that map switch meaningful - replacing one map that was all ZvZ all the time with another all ZvZ all the time map wouldn't have accomplished much. P and T look playable against Zerg now with the changes.
Also, anyone else remember 2 months ago when the new maps were first put up, everyone was like YAAAA Battle Royal they have to put that one in it's going to be the best map ever! Oh how the mighty have fallen. High five to everyone else who didn't think it was going to be all that when the first pictures came out.
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On May 23 2009 03:17 Mah Buckit! wrote:
Anyone noticed that Shadow of Twilight no longer has two expos at the high ground :S
Yeah, I liked that feature, having your 3rd out on the arm on the high ground like that made the map look fairly unique.
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I actually liked battle royal....the two tvz wins were pretty epic, and it produced some of the greatest ZvZ's ever (Luxury vs Yellow[arnc]).
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On May 23 2009 01:30 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses Bisu complained
Is this confirmed or just conjecture?
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On May 23 2009 04:56 XYoonZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:30 konadora wrote:On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses Bisu complained Is this confirmed or just conjecture?
It's very hArd to chAnge your style to get 1-2-3 reAvers. You know.
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On May 23 2009 04:56 XYoonZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:30 konadora wrote:On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses Bisu complained Is this confirmed or just conjecture?
it's a joke based on how much of a pansy bisu is.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
SHADES OF TWILIGHT SUCKSSSSS
CENTRAL PLAINZZZ
CAPS LOCKKKK
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Thank god for no more Battle Royal. I'm so sick of watching lower-classed ZvZ matches.
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On May 23 2009 06:25 Mikilatov wrote:
Thank god for no more Battle Royal. I'm so sick of watching lower-classed ZvZ matches.
Every ZvZ w/o Jaedong is lower class imo
Anyway I am glad this map's gone, it was fucking joke anyway.
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Out of the three choices, I liked Shadow of Twilight the least :/
And the change to Neo Medusa sucks also.
=(
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boring
I want to see Battle Royal 2 with tactical geysers...
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51397 Posts
kind of gay with the maps this season, nothing real interesting. just all plain boring macro-style maps.
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if bisu says it's imba, u better fucking listen
hes the nr1 player in the world for a reason
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Good. BR gone finally. Too much ZvZ is just too much Hopefully this way we will see more non-mirrors.
Shaeds of Twilight... Dunno about this one but it can't be as bad as BR.
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On May 23 2009 07:13 Disintegrate wrote:
if bisu says it's imba, u better fucking listen
hes the nr1 player in the world for a reason
You must be joking.
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On May 23 2009 01:31 malathion wrote:
No point in having a map that is only playable in one matchup
Good riddance
100%
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Ugh wtf @ changing neo medusa >_<
protosses and terrans can build bunkers, turrets, and cannons in the middle of a map usually, but as soon as zergs are able to do it effectively they have to change it?
Also Shades of Twilight looks pretty sweet 
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I agree proxy hatch was a good usage of map dynamic, but it was SoOO gay..
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United States20661 Posts
Seriously? Once Zerg can do something innovated, it gets nerfed?
"All maps have been changed to prevent Protoss cannon rushes"
Sigh.
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Bisu obviously used methods to influence this change. However, what kind of methods, we don't know. :O
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ok now im kind of pissed off at kespa
zerg has had to suffer gay proxy rax -> bunker rushes, proxy factories, cannon rushes, proxy gateways for ages
now that we get to do our own cool thing to do, its "imbalanced"? wtf
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All maps should be changed to prevent 2port wraiths IMO.
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On May 23 2009 02:26 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 02:21 Gnojfatelob wrote:On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so. I remember enough zerg and terran bitching when toss was winning everything. I feel medusa is better now without proxy hatch, but with the other fixes. Yeah, because Neo Medusa really fixed a majority of the problems that already existed in tvp/tvz. Also, Gorush tried to proxy hatch Backho in OSL. Backho breaks out ez. Backho > Bisu?!?!?!
GoRush did the same strat on outsider that Luxury did vs Sea and Lomo beat it, Lomo > Sea!?!?!?!
More like GoRush is borderline terrible now and his timing is off. Great is a far better player than GoRush is.
And proxy gating is completely different from proxy hatching. and I know the zergs are going to cry that protoss can still cannon rush. For a long time now the mineral placements on most maps have prevented any kind of perfectly walled cannon rush PvZ and no decent zerg would ever allow a protoss to cannon away from the mineral line.
Now that that's out, I don't think proxy hatch is that big of a deal. At least enough to warrant another change to medusa. I don't know why progamers should be any different with a proxy hatch than foreigners and korean amateurs (using reavers with an army). It's difficult to deal with but not impossible.
lol @ zergs crying about no zerg favored maps.
in recent times maps that favor zerg ZvP
Andromeda
Destination
Neo Harmony
Tears of The Moon
Chupung Reyeong
Battle Royale
Holy World
Neo Medusa
maps that have been balanced ZvP
Medusa
RH3
Tau Cross
Outsider
Return of the King
You guys aren't hurting to much
I know ZvT isn't great on these maps but that's not the issue here.
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my point was that protoss and terran is able to do so much gay shit to the zerg, and now that zerg has access to something equally homosexual its deemed unbalanced
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On May 23 2009 09:20 whatusername wrote:
my point was that protoss and terran is able to do so much gay shit to the zerg, and now that zerg has access to something equally homosexual its deemed unbalanced
What kind of gay shit? Proxy 2 gate. That's about the gayest thing I can think of that's actually semi viable nowadays.
Gay things zerg can do to protoss.
2 hatch muta
2 hatch lurker drop
2 hatch hydra break
3 hatch hydra break
4/5 pool
overpool speed runbye
and that's just openings
Sunken/Spore Lurker turtling is extremely hard for protoss to defend, zergs mobility and ability to shutdown an expo with a few lings and swarm is very difficult to deal with and other things.
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regular play isnt 'gay shit' lets not just list every build order for both. imo and obviously a lot of other people proxy hatch wasnt an imbalanced strategy, didn't seem to be a reason to change the map because of it. its just a clever strategy that requires a change of play style to counter. but instead of even giving time for toss players to adjust their play against it, they just change the map to 'fix' it which is kind of lame. allowing infested terrans is imbalanced, but proxy hatch? naah.
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man, I wanted Central Plains.
Twilight isn't even on the twilight tileset
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this discussion is pointless, the decision has been made.
bisu is now kespa's balance bloke.
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On May 23 2009 09:14 Pioneer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 02:26 Harem wrote:On May 23 2009 02:21 Gnojfatelob wrote:On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so. I remember enough zerg and terran bitching when toss was winning everything. I feel medusa is better now without proxy hatch, but with the other fixes. Yeah, because Neo Medusa really fixed a majority of the problems that already existed in tvp/tvz. Also, Gorush tried to proxy hatch Backho in OSL. Backho breaks out ez. Backho > Bisu?!?!?! GoRush did the same strat on outsider that Luxury did vs Sea and Lomo beat it, Lomo > Sea!?!?!?! More like GoRush is borderline terrible now and his timing is off. Great is a far better player than GoRush is..
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/12086_GoRush_vs_great
wait what
EDIT : to add something im really glad the map is gone, as said earlier a map that only one matchup can be played on is fucking boring
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Thank God they took out Battle Royale, it actually ruined ZvZ for me, it was my most favorite matchup
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Really?, BR was made for ZvZ. The general quality of ZvZ on BR is higher than on any other map I can remember.
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Glad the map is gone, especially as an ACE MAP!!!! hated watching ZvZ, for an ACE match is way too hardcore anti-climatic....
So why the hell did they not allow proxy hatchery strategies on medusa anymore? gosh i was so looking forward to the strategy that breaks it, stuff like hallucination+arbiter recall...
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On May 23 2009 01:26 konadora wrote:NO WHAT HAPPENED TO CENTRAL PLAINS =( Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so. Totally agree. I bet Bisu complained to KeSPA directly
bisu never got proxied hatched on medusa, it was another zerg wasnt it? free i think.
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Good thing. Battle Royale was so horribly imbalanced. I'm glad KESPA realized this fact and didn't leave it up like they did with Katrina for so long.
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On May 23 2009 10:42 Raithed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:26 konadora wrote:NO WHAT HAPPENED TO CENTRAL PLAINS =( On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so. Totally agree. I bet Bisu complained to KeSPA directly bisu never got proxied hatched on medusa, it was another zerg wasnt it? free i think.
im pretty sure bisu died to it also
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I liked ZvZ on Battle Royal, but I guess it's a hit or miss thing. Aggressive play is always more fun when it's in close positions
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Baa?21242 Posts
I thought Shades of Twilight looked familiar. Then I went on MSPaint and used 'Invert Colors" to make it blue.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFU.
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On May 23 2009 01:28 hasuprotoss wrote:
I hate to say it. But if you get contained then you deserve to have to deal with proxy hatches...
what? Maybe you should try playing pvz before you say something as ridiculous as this. Not being contained is impossible if the strat the zerg went for is a contain. That is just how that matchup works.
I am not saying that they should take away the viability of proxy hatchery.
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 10:42 Raithed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:26 konadora wrote:NO WHAT HAPPENED TO CENTRAL PLAINS =( On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so. Totally agree. I bet Bisu complained to KeSPA directly bisu never got proxied hatched on medusa, it was another zerg wasnt it? free i think.
Bisu AND free. Free got proxy hatched first
On May 23 2009 11:06 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:I thought Shades of Twilight looked familiar. Then I went on MSPaint and used 'Invert Colors" to make it blue. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFU.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU-
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United States17042 Posts
On May 23 2009 11:09 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:28 hasuprotoss wrote:
I hate to say it. But if you get contained then you deserve to have to deal with proxy hatches... what? Maybe you should try playing pvz before you say something as ridiculous as this. Not being contained is impossible if the strat the zerg went for is a contain. That is just how that matchup works. I am not saying that they should take away the viability of proxy hatchery.
I actually liked the proxy hat, because I think that it forces P to move out and attempt to gain map control a little earlier. Now I think that P has way too many options...but we'll see how it plays out.
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On May 23 2009 10:00 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 09:14 Pioneer wrote:On May 23 2009 02:26 Harem wrote:On May 23 2009 02:21 Gnojfatelob wrote:On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so. I remember enough zerg and terran bitching when toss was winning everything. I feel medusa is better now without proxy hatch, but with the other fixes. Yeah, because Neo Medusa really fixed a majority of the problems that already existed in tvp/tvz. Also, Gorush tried to proxy hatch Backho in OSL. Backho breaks out ez. Backho > Bisu?!?!?! GoRush did the same strat on outsider that Luxury did vs Sea and Lomo beat it, Lomo > Sea!?!?!?! More like GoRush is borderline terrible now and his timing is off. Great is a far better player than GoRush is.. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/12086_GoRush_vs_greatwait what EDIT : to add something im really glad the map is gone, as said earlier a map that only one matchup can be played on is fucking boring
lol please be joking
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BR was the best ZvZ map ever, and the TvZ was mildly entertaining... but when all is said and done, it was a ZvZ map, and therefore not the best Proleague choice.
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Proxy-hatch was such a stupid/lame strategy, I'm glad they got rid of it. Now Neo Medusa isn't ruined for PvZ.
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 11:40 Sentenal wrote:
Proxy-hatch was such a stupid/lame strategy, I'm glad they got rid of it. Now Neo Medusa isn't ruined for PvZ.
It's a good strategy. Protoss played dumb for letting Zerg contain them and buy time to get the sunken contains up.
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There is no let, it's like saying P shouldn't 'let' themselves be contained on Holy World. P is contained by default early on until they build up enough to break out, that is how it works.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On May 23 2009 11:47 Balfazar wrote:
P is contained by default early on
No one forces P to Forge-FE.
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On May 23 2009 11:40 Sentenal wrote:
Proxy-hatch was such a stupid/lame strategy, I'm glad they got rid of it. Now Neo Medusa isn't ruined for PvZ.
So the ability for Zerg to easily threaten the main, nat, and min-only simultaneously in the early midgame doesn't ruin it for PvZ? People (including KeSPA) are shadowboxing at the proxyhatch when it's not really a big problem with the map. There have only been what, 2, 3 proxyhatch games? Leaving the maps PvZ record minus those something like 12-5 or 11-5?
Removing proxyhatch is pretty stupid IMO, it was entertaining and not really a large contributor to the map balance. It's something Protoss would have learned to deal with after a while. I'm not sure the temple break into doom drop strategy is even possible to counter if done well.
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On May 23 2009 11:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:No one forces P to Forge-FE.
On a rampless map, there's no other way. You could do a 2 gateway expand, but it's much riskier and harder to pull off.
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Now that BR is gone, Luxury may just win a ZvZ.
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On May 23 2009 11:48 Macavenger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 11:40 Sentenal wrote:
Proxy-hatch was such a stupid/lame strategy, I'm glad they got rid of it. Now Neo Medusa isn't ruined for PvZ. So the ability for Zerg to easily threaten the main, nat, and min-only simultaneously in the early midgame doesn't ruin it for PvZ? People (including KeSPA) are shadowboxing at the proxyhatch when it's not really a big problem with the map. There have only been what, 2, 3 proxyhatch games? Leaving the maps PvZ record minus those something like 12-5 or 11-5? Removing proxyhatch is pretty stupid IMO, it was entertaining and not really a large contributor to the map balance. It's something Protoss would have learned to deal with after a while. I'm not sure the temple break into doom drop strategy is even possible to counter if done well.
The temple break into doom drop strategy is the real culprit behind the supposed imbalance, and the only real counter I've seen for it is really good storming.
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On May 23 2009 11:48 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:No one forces P to Forge-FE.
Like someone else said, on rampless maps, you pretty much have to Forge-FE. I mean, you can't go 1gate, since pool first builds will rape you. You maybe can go 2gate, and hope to god they don't go pool first. If they do, you are in trouble, since you can't both attack the Zerg and defend from lings running around in your main.
And often times in PvZ, espeically vs Lurker strategies, you are contained until you can break out. I mean, thats just how it works. They get lurkers/scourges for obs, and some other units outside your natural, so you have to mass up, and bust out. Busting out is made much much more difficult when you include like 7 sunken colonies, a few spore colonies, and then lurkers in between them.
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looks great, where do i dl?
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Maybe if Protoss players starting 1 gate teching or something instead of that lame popularized fast expand build they wouldn't get proxy hatched.
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FINALLY! fucking worst map ever made holy fuck
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On May 23 2009 12:29 Renaissance wrote:
Maybe if Protoss players starting 1 gate teching or something instead of that lame popularized fast expand build they wouldn't get proxy hatched.
....
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I'm just joking, just like the user who said Bisu complained. But in all seriousness, fast expand is so common I hate it :\
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how the hell is zerg gonna move out of his nat vs a terran lol
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Who cares about zergs? Byzantium 3 has the same TvZ stats in favor of BR as ZvT, and zergs are forced to play on it as it's an individual league map. And they make another one for Proleague? It's okay, happens all the time.
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On May 23 2009 12:41 Renaissance wrote:
I'm just joking, just like the user who said Bisu complained. But in all seriousness, fast expand is so common I hate it :\
Ok .
1 Gate tech wouldn't solve getting contained, unless you were doing a 1 gate tech into some rush. You would eventually take your expand and then min only and it could start again.
Tricked me though :p.
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On May 23 2009 11:06 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:I thought Shades of Twilight looked familiar. Then I went on MSPaint and used 'Invert Colors" to make it blue. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFU.
Wow, they somehow made it even worse for ZvT.
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I like how any time zerg gets a map against terran they remove it
Fuck you kespa
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Looks like Reverse Temple without the temple(s).
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Much get proxy hatcheried and still win the game? or was that someone else?
I thought it was a pretty legit strat...imo.
Oh well, at least BR was gone (just when terran were starting to win on it too :[ )
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Proxy hatchery is much more enjoyable to watch than hydra busting over and over.
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On May 23 2009 12:53 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Who cares about zergs? Byzantium 3 has the same TvZ stats in favor of BR as ZvT, and zergs are forced to play on it as it's an individual league map. And they make another one for Proleague? It's okay, happens all the time.
look at all the matchups
tell me how many youd expect the zerg to win on any map.
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On May 23 2009 13:35 Disregard wrote:
Looks like Reverse Temple without the temple(s).
Looks like Byzantium 3 without the...the...um.
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I'll miss BR, I loved that map. Sure, it was horribly imbalanced, but ZvZ is a lot of fun to watch imo.
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I personally think they should have more maps that are designed for certain matchups, I think it would add a lot of diversity.
Though they would have to say going into it 'this map is only to be used for PvT or ZvP or ZvZ etc. To me I it seems like there could be a lot more creativity going into the maps if this were the case.
Not that I dont love a good all around balanced map.
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Wait, maps actually helped Zergs out? Shit, we better change them so the Zergs are put in their place again...
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What? WHAT IS GOING ON HERE????
I'M STUCK!!!! HELPPPppppp
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Shades of Twilight is like exactly like Byzantium what the fuck
That map didn't fool me one bit the first time I looked at it I was like "LOL what a ripoff"
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Average quality of ZvZ on Battle Royale > Average quality of ZvZ on other maps. Removing Battle Royale is just going to shift the ZvZ's to the also zerg favored God's Garden. I don't understand people who want to see Central Plains - it looks like a map that would produce almost as many mirror matches in a certain matchup as Battle Royale did.
Byzantium is one of my least favorite maps ever and now they're doubling it? God damnit.
Destination and Medusa have been around for a while, I hope they get removed after this round.
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this just new map just a little different from Byzantium. - -
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On May 23 2009 17:23 Crunchums wrote:
Destination and Medusa have been around for a while, I hope they get removed after this round.
I'm pretty sure they'll replace most of the maps (older maps with higher priority) for the next season. DON'T GIVE UP!
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Noooooooo Proxy hatcheries were so fun to watch -.-
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On May 23 2009 09:22 Pioneer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 09:20 whatusername wrote:
my point was that protoss and terran is able to do so much gay shit to the zerg, and now that zerg has access to something equally homosexual its deemed unbalanced What kind of gay shit? Proxy 2 gate. That's about the gayest thing I can think of that's actually semi viable nowadays. Gay things zerg can do to protoss. 2 hatch muta 2 hatch lurker drop 2 hatch hydra break 3 hatch hydra break 4/5 pool overpool speed runbye and that's just openings Sunken/Spore Lurker turtling is extremely hard for protoss to defend, zergs mobility and ability to shutdown an expo with a few lings and swarm is very difficult to deal with and other things.
The only accurage point you made there is your 4/5 pool. Oddly enough the only thing that doesn't routinely get scouted instantly by a protoss is the 2 hatch hydra break.
2 hatch hydra and 4/5 pool are the only all-in builds you just listed, rest are legit openings.
Removing proxy hatcheries was such a lame thing to do and it doesn't even solve the problems protoss has on that map.
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On May 23 2009 01:20 Plutonium wrote:
The layout reminds me of reverse temple.
now that you mention it, i see it too
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On May 23 2009 01:35 Zato-1 wrote:
If proxy hatch is such a fun strat, I don't see why the zerg players can't try it on another map. It's not like KeSPA forbade it. I just got proxy hatched today on Othello, and a few days ago on Destination:-p I'm sure that they got the inspiration from games on NeoMedusa, but I'm cool with that. Anyway, the stats did not show NeoMedusa as balanced, so let's see what's next.
Shades is pretty much just a ripoff of Byzantium, with uglier tileset:-p
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Wasn't there a game on collo where cannons were brought in to contain? So now a protoss decides to spend 100 minerals and 150 per cannon to have em where ever he wants. Now a zerg decides to spend 300 minerals and 125 per cannon + a drone to have sunkens where ever he wants... A terran decides to spend 75 minerals for 3 125 damage mines. So apparently zergs spending 500+ minerals to strengthen a contain is imba.
That proxy hatch could've been used for a greater economy. Instead it's been used to help keep up a contain. Apparently that's imba.
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on neo medusa fe vs zerg is a must, how the hell do you deal with the proxy hatch then? reavers? yeah sure, like there wouldn't be any hydras.. Trying to squeeze trought the small backdoor? not gonna work, to easy to flank..
There are already enough z>p maps out. thanks kespa.
This new map looks like byzantium+vertigo.
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Bring back andromeda! I want more epic 80min pvzs
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On May 24 2009 08:34 Piste wrote:
on neo medusa fe vs zerg is a must, how the hell do you deal with the proxy hatch then? reavers? yeah sure, like there wouldn't be any hydras.. Trying to squeeze trought the small backdoor? not gonna work, to easy to flank..
There are already enough z>p maps out. thanks kespa.
This new map looks like byzantium+vertigo.
Reavers aren't afraid of hydralisks, especially not with pro micro. The reason reavers aren't used is because a third is harder to secure on Neo Medusa, but no impossible. Honestly, protoss should stop complaining, they can't get perfectly balanced maps all the time. What other blatant Z>P maps are there next round?
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Obviously Bisu got mad that he wasn't completely owning it up on Medusa anymore.
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On May 24 2009 14:07 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 08:34 Piste wrote:
on neo medusa fe vs zerg is a must, how the hell do you deal with the proxy hatch then? reavers? yeah sure, like there wouldn't be any hydras.. Trying to squeeze trought the small backdoor? not gonna work, to easy to flank..
There are already enough z>p maps out. thanks kespa.
This new map looks like byzantium+vertigo.
Reavers aren't afraid of hydralisks, especially not with pro micro. The reason reavers aren't used is because a third is harder to secure on Neo Medusa, but no impossible. Honestly, protoss should stop complaining, they can't get perfectly balanced maps all the time. What other blatant Z>P maps are there next round?
Like, other than God's Garden?
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Shades does look a lot like Byzantium, but with one huge difference: on both maps the plateau has three ramps, but on Shades one goes straight up to the natural. Byzantium has a choke. In this regard, Shades is far more like an inverted RotK - except the natural is even more open! I think this is going to be a map that plays more like Neo Requiem than anything else we've seen lately - a rush map that favors Protoss.
For Terran the saving grace is that the middle is lower and they get to use the ramp. On the other hand, it's a big ramp, so no walling-off at the expansion and no choke to hide behind off a FD or 1-fac CC. Low econ play for Terran in the opening vs Protoss, or cautious (tank heavy?) expansion. I think Flash will love it in this MU, but other Terrans will need to adapt. vs. Zerg there's a real threat of ling runbys, so less 1-rax CC and maybe a resurrection of 2-rax CC play? You never know. Also the Zerg can control three gas easily with mutalisks, so a high likelihood of either mech play or early aggression.
Zerg has an interesting game - vs Terran they have three easy gas thanks to mutas, but vs. Protoss they'll need map control to take the third safely, similar to the high-ground third on Destination. Unlike Destination, there are no bridges - stalling a Protoss ball will be very difficult. On the upside, flanking will be very easy - not a concern if you're free and your standard play includes 1342 archons and 9384 reavers, but really problematic for the more common lots-of-zeals-and-temps look.
Speaking of which, why do I like Protoss on this map? They can't FE easily - I'm sure someone will figure out how, but this looks like a 3-cannon min or else wall yourself in deal - and so play versus Zerg will be problematic in the early game. On the other hand, once Protoss does expand and gets sairs out, it's going to be very hard for Zerg to get a third base unless he has complete game control. I don't really know PvZ very well, but - like on Neo Requiem - it should probably play about even and depend on the early game. Gut feeling. Versus Terran, Protoss needs to watch for vulture runbys, and that's really about the worst they have to worry about. Literally nothing is tankable unless Protoss only controls their main but that's a problem anyway. Minimal presence in the valley outside the main will make the third and min-only safe expansions, while the huge ramps pose problems for Terran trying to control ground with tanks.
I'm predicting this map will play more-or-less okay, but with heavy P > T and slight Z > T imbalance. In today's world of lineups, that means a lot of PvP on the map, with Terrans becoming a rarity except for the few who figure out how to win. Sort of like Colosseum.
Of course, I could be all wrong about this.
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United States11390 Posts
On May 24 2009 14:07 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 08:34 Piste wrote:
on neo medusa fe vs zerg is a must, how the hell do you deal with the proxy hatch then? reavers? yeah sure, like there wouldn't be any hydras.. Trying to squeeze trought the small backdoor? not gonna work, to easy to flank..
There are already enough z>p maps out. thanks kespa.
This new map looks like byzantium+vertigo.
Reavers aren't afraid of hydralisks, especially not with pro micro. The reason reavers aren't used is because a third *gas* is harder to secure on Neo Medusa, but no impossible. Honestly, protoss should stop complaining, they can't get perfectly balanced maps all the time. What other blatant Z>P maps are there next round?
Fixed for you.
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Where can I get this new map?
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I am a Protoss player and even I find KeSPA`s decision rather bizarre. While Great`s contain on Bisu did grow to become absurdly powerful during their game, it did not seem like an unbeatable strategy to me. Having said that, I doubt Bisu had anything to do with this. Considering his winning streak, I doubt he still even remembers his game against Great.
As for Central Plains, I for one am glad that they decided not to include it. As the main sponsor, Shinhan already gets plenty of opportunities to advertise during Proleague. As such, there is no reason for them to stamp their logo in the middle of a map. In my opinion, in-game advertisement should be left dead along with the Pringles MSL.
Maybe KeSPA should consider making some new low econ maps? That would certainly spice up modern gameplay.
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On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, maybe kespa are full of tossers
fixed
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On May 23 2009 01:20 Plutonium wrote:
The layout reminds me of reverse temple.
Shadow of Twilight is a reverse ramp map like Neo Requiem.
that's probably y....
On May 23 2009 01:30 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses Bisu complained
i really doubt they would give half shit about wat bisu thinks?
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Shadow looks like a great map.
Much better than Byz 3. It has enough gas to make it fair enough for zerg.
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also a problem with the hatchery contain is that reavers are fucking stupid. They tend to walk to the range of the sunken to hti them even if its not necessary -_-
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On May 25 2009 23:11 R3condite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:20 Plutonium wrote:
The layout reminds me of reverse temple. that's probably y.... Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:30 konadora wrote:On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses Bisu complained i really doubt they would give half shit about wat bisu thinks?
im pretty sure konadora was just poking fun at how bisu complains about maps -_-
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I don't understand how they could block hatcheries on the center of the map for the next version of Neo Medusa. You could place unbuildable terrain every few spaces to prevent one from fitting, but that would also disallow proxy gateways or an engineering bay to be built there. I definitely hope that they didn't do that.
I have a pretty high level of mapping knowledge and there's no way that I'm aware of that would allow an engineering bay and not a hatchery...
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Russian Federation386 Posts
Great, now we have Byzantium in PL too -_-
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On May 26 2009 07:23 FaZ- wrote:
I don't understand how they could block hatcheries on the center of the map for the next version of Neo Medusa. You could place unbuildable terrain every few spaces to prevent one from fitting, but that would also disallow proxy gateways or an engineering bay to be built there. I definitely hope that they didn't do that.
I have a pretty high level of mapping knowledge and there's no way that I'm aware of that would allow an engineering bay and not a hatchery...
maybe enough unbuildable terrain to stop creep from spreading
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On May 25 2009 23:11 R3condite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:20 Plutonium wrote:
The layout reminds me of reverse temple. that's probably y.... Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:30 konadora wrote:On May 23 2009 01:30 Scaramanga wrote:
i dont understand why they removed the proxy hatch, mabey kespa are full of tosses Bisu complained i really doubt they would give half shit about wat bisu thinks?
Yeah, if Bisu complained they would've gotten RoTK, not Byzantium 3
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
The reason why Medusa is being changed is because they do not want to upset the PvZ balance (which was good before the change). They simply want to strength terran vs protoss but in doing so they strengthened Zerg vs Protoss as well. So now they're just covering up their mistakes.
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On May 23 2009 01:15 sky_slasher wrote:
KeSPA announced the official maps for SPL 08 - 09 season R4 which begins on May 30.
You mean R5?
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Korea (South)922 Posts
at least shadow of twilight looks t favored vs p...you can hold one spot in middle and you'll have near complete map control
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Shadow of Twilight is definitely going to be death in ZvT.
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This map is very terran biased...
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On May 23 2009 01:20 Delerium wrote:
uh... shouldn't it be the player's job to keep tabs on whether he's being contained, rather than the e-sports administration's job to save them from enemy strats?
Yes.
Modifying maps to this extent for balance, is ridiculous
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On May 23 2009 01:26 konadora wrote:
NO
WHAT HAPPENED TO CENTRAL PLAINS =(
On May 23 2009 01:26 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:21 Magic84 wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. Yeah, it was something new and fun, not unbeatable. Protoss didn't want to adapt nor they had enough games to do so. Totally agree. I bet Bisu complained to KeSPA directly
Twas definitely fun to watch. Fuckin' a man. KeSPA ruins this shit too easily.
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On May 26 2009 17:25 Foucault wrote:
[Yes.
Modifying maps to this extent for balance, is ridiculous
I assume it shouldn't have been modified in the first place then...? The principle at work in both modifications is the same.
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On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Show nested quote +Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat.
No, what's lame is that strat.
Good call to remove this map, supremely imba as I first suspected. Looking forward to games on the new map!
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United States11390 Posts
On May 26 2009 23:14 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. No, what's lame is that strat.
Terran taking gas in TvZ is lame.
Kespa should ban that too.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
this new map is incredibly generic
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Haha. Because of the tileset, it reminded me of demon's forest.
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On May 23 2009 01:47 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
jesus christ..
If proxy hatching is considered some kind of map imbalance than I have no fucking clue what they are thinking. Terran and protoss have been proxy building for fucking YEARS on everymap EVER and z does it once and we get it removed.. rofl.
This.
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On May 26 2009 23:14 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. No, what's lame is that strat. Good call to remove this map, supremely imba as I first suspected. Looking forward to games on the new map!
They didn't even fix the imbalance of the map. The thing that's truly killing protosses is the front/backdoor threat into a drop in the main. That strat isn't lame at all-it's like mech, protosses will eventually figure out a counter to it. How is that strat lame? Should we prevent bunker rushes and forge choke block into cannon contains as well? It's basically the same thing.
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On May 27 2009 11:43 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 23:14 jello_biafra wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. No, what's lame is that strat. Good call to remove this map, supremely imba as I first suspected. Looking forward to games on the new map! They didn't even fix the imbalance of the map. The thing that's truly killing protosses is the front/backdoor threat into a drop in the main. That strat isn't lame at all-it's like mech, protosses will eventually figure out a counter to it. How is that strat lame? Should we prevent bunker rushes and forge choke block into cannon contains as well? It's basically the same thing.
Because those things are relatively easy to stop? Once that hatch is up the P is as good as dead, as the games where it happened proved and why the map's been altered...
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On May 27 2009 16:39 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2009 11:43 Avidkeystamper wrote:On May 26 2009 23:14 jello_biafra wrote:On May 23 2009 01:18 BWdero wrote:Neo Medusa has been changed as not to enable Zerg to build Hatchery on the middle area of the map. Lame, I liked that strat. No, what's lame is that strat. Good call to remove this map, supremely imba as I first suspected. Looking forward to games on the new map! They didn't even fix the imbalance of the map. The thing that's truly killing protosses is the front/backdoor threat into a drop in the main. That strat isn't lame at all-it's like mech, protosses will eventually figure out a counter to it. How is that strat lame? Should we prevent bunker rushes and forge choke block into cannon contains as well? It's basically the same thing. Because those things are relatively easy to stop? Once that hatch is up the P is as good as dead, as the games where it happened proved and why the map's been altered...
Bullshit, you saw /2/ games. Lets not even get into how hard it is to get the hatch up seeing as it takes two minutes to set that up, once it IS up, a good goon/storm army should be able to clear it, and a transition into reaver/sair might work too seeing as reavers easily outrange sunkens and Z wasted tons of money on defending an empty spot at the middle of the map which totally won't matter against an air-mobile army. Two games where you lose to a strat don't make it imba, or else Forge FE would be banned long ago because I'm pretty sure I saw it win more than two games.
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How is it hard to set that up when toss is just sitting in base with cannons? Reavers don't easily outrange sunks, they freak out to the max, one of the reasons why this strat is imba. By the time you've produced a large enough goon/storm army to break free of all those sunks, spores and lurks Z will have the entire map...I'm pretty sure this strat is imba and there was good cause for it to be removed.
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Cadical
United States469 Posts
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Yeah seriously, proxy hatch is too good, considering it takes protoss ~8 min to even get enough units to move out of their base with the current meta-game. "goon/storm army should easily clear it out, seeing as reavers outrange sunkens". Yeah, 15 minutes into the game when you've got every tech. How many hatcheries do you think a zerg is able to make in 15 minutes of no pressure from the protoss? Also it just makes for very unentertaining matches, so there's no reason to make maps where it's a possibilty, when we've been fine without it for ages.
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tell LZgamer and Ace that proxy hatchery is imba and unbreakable
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there hasnt been enough games to judge it. but it certainly didnt look particularly imba compared to the backdoor strategy
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On May 30 2009 09:24 infinity2k9 wrote:
there hasnt been enough games to judge it. but it certainly didnt look particularly imba compared to the backdoor strategy
Sure wasnt imba seeing as Great was able to beat 2 S class toss and one A using the strat.
And Great is horrible.
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seeing how backho defeated proxy hatch on holy world... ?
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On May 30 2009 11:14 Mania[K]al wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 09:24 infinity2k9 wrote:
there hasnt been enough games to judge it. but it certainly didnt look particularly imba compared to the backdoor strategy Sure wasnt imba seeing as Great was able to beat 2 S class toss and one A using the strat. And Great is horrible.
If by "horrible" you mean "has only been playing for a year and has a 0.500 or better record in every matchup, then sure, great's horrible. If you actually watch him play, he's not actually that bad.
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On May 30 2009 12:36 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 11:14 Mania[K]al wrote:On May 30 2009 09:24 infinity2k9 wrote:
there hasnt been enough games to judge it. but it certainly didnt look particularly imba compared to the backdoor strategy Sure wasnt imba seeing as Great was able to beat 2 S class toss and one A using the strat. And Great is horrible. If by "horrible" you mean "has only been playing for a year and has a 0.500 or better record in every matchup, then sure, great's horrible. If you actually watch him play, he's not actually that bad.
He's not just good. He's GRRREEEAAAATTTT
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On May 30 2009 11:14 Mania[K]al wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 09:24 infinity2k9 wrote:
there hasnt been enough games to judge it. but it certainly didnt look particularly imba compared to the backdoor strategy Sure wasnt imba seeing as Great was able to beat 2 S class toss and one A using the strat. And Great is horrible.
Not to mention that all the toss players anticipated the build and were totally powerless to stop it.
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gorush tried proxy hatching backho and backho just beat it with a goon temp army?
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On May 30 2009 23:29 whatusername wrote:
gorush tried proxy hatching backho and backho just beat it with a goon temp army?
backho has a knack for doing stuff other tosses can't do (and not being able to do stuff every other toss can do).
first toss to win on Tears of the Moon ffs
FAIL POST
Kal > theZerg
ok at least BackHo was one of only two tosses to win a PvZ on TotM
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On May 30 2009 22:30 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2009 11:14 Mania[K]al wrote:On May 30 2009 09:24 infinity2k9 wrote:
there hasnt been enough games to judge it. but it certainly didnt look particularly imba compared to the backdoor strategy Sure wasnt imba seeing as Great was able to beat 2 S class toss and one A using the strat. And Great is horrible. Not to mention that all the toss players anticipated the build and were totally powerless to stop it.
Watch Bisu vs Great again. The first Free got caught off guard since that was when the build was unveiled. Bisu would've won if he microed his obs better, and don't tell me he's powerless to micro his obs.
Also, Mech was "Invincible" during its inception and now it's 50-50 again.
You cannot cry imba over two games, especially given how close the second game was.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/issue/1243008079_1.jpg)
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