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On March 14 2009 22:48 ~chut~ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2009 20:43 PoP wrote:
Actually I have no strong opinion on whether this showmatch should be counted towards ELO. Any korean can tell us if these games were officially sanctionned by KeSPA? I think you should count every TV game, no matter if it's sacntionned by Kespa or not. I really hope you did count GOM games since the invitationnal tournament actually  ELO ranking doesn't take care about how important the game is (final / exhibition / PL, it's all the same), as long as it was played seriously and i think all theses games were played seriously. It's another mesure than kespa, i don't see any reason to strictly use games sanctionned by Kespa for this ranking.
The problem is, Gom TV games are not aired on television. They have a stage, stream for the internet and everything, but failed to get a television station to host the games. That is probably the biggest reason why Korean communities don't ackowledge Gom TV leagues as much as foreign communities.
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Well, but the rules should be clear. Why counting showmatch between Bisu and Jaedong and not the invitational won by Flash and S1 won by Jaedong?
I tend more to count them all than count none of them...
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POP:
Do you know how much would adding S1 of GOM affect everything currently? Or if it's even possible?
I would tend to favor adding games just because it makes it more complete if it were up to me esp. since S2 and the showmatch were counted (which they should be IMO).
On March 15 2009 02:41 adelarge wrote:
Well, but the rules should be clear. Why counting showmatch between Bisu and Jaedong and not the invitational won by Flash and S1 won by Jaedong?
I tend more to count them all than count none of them...
GSI is counted in TLPD. Just not S1 with Jaedong over Flash.
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On March 15 2009 06:58 eshlow wrote:
GSI is counted in TLPD. Just not S1 with Jaedong over Flash.
That looks like the worst case scenario to me. After all, the Bisu-Jaedong showmatch could be played only because Jaedong won S1 and Bisu S2. Counting the showmatch and not counting the S1 doesn't make any sense...
Wouldn't be possible to list every game but differentiate somehow the kespa sanctioned? But I can imagine it would take A LOT of work...
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GSI games are shown but don't factor into elo or anything. same with stx masters
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On March 14 2009 20:43 PoP wrote:
Actually I have no strong opinion on whether this showmatch should be counted towards ELO. Any korean can tell us if these games were officially sanctionned by KeSPA?
I think it should count as a 'special event' like shinhan masters and any other invite-only event.
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This deserves a random poll. Or do you guys want to make a new thread with the poll?
Poll: Should GSI & GOMTV S1 be added to TLPD?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): Only GOMTV S1, but not GSI (invitation only/special event).
(Vote): No
(Vote): No, and take out GOMTV S2 (Bisu won) & Jaedong/Bisu showmatch
Also, it would probably be a good idea to get an idea of what games should be added, yes?
Poll: What games should be added to TLPD?
(Vote): Only KeSPA sanctioned (edit - sanctioned include GOM S2 only)
(Vote): All televised games and/or streamed games (includes GSI, GOM S1 & S2, etc.)
(Vote): All televised games and/or streamed games except special events/invitational tournaments
I also believe that if you selection option 2 it might include Shinhan masters, IEFs, maybe Blizzcon? Not sure about that. Could someone clarify?
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For those of you voting... you do know that KeSPA officiated does NOT include any of the GSI & GOMTV stuff......
so from what it looks currently you're voting to ADD GSI & GOMTV is contradicting the "only KeSPA officiated position.
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United States13896 Posts
I think any televised/streamed games from tournaments (not invitationals/showmatches) where only KeSPA recognized progamers played should be included. The important factor for me is that the players are KeSPA recognized, not whether or not the tournament is, because that's largely determined by inane bureaucratic business policy anyways.
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On March 15 2009 09:10 eshlow wrote:
For those of you voting... you do know that KeSPA officiated does NOT include any of the GSI & GOMTV stuff......
so from what it looks currently you're voting to ADD GSI & GOMTV is contradicting the "only KeSPA officiated position.
Gomtv Season 2 is KeSPA sanctioned,
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On March 15 2009 09:17 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2009 09:10 eshlow wrote:
For those of you voting... you do know that KeSPA officiated does NOT include any of the GSI & GOMTV stuff......
so from what it looks currently you're voting to ADD GSI & GOMTV is contradicting the "only KeSPA officiated position. Gomtv Season 2 is KeSPA sanctioned,
Ah, perhaps I should change the wording then to sanctioned.
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All Gom Classic S2 games were not recorded by Kespa. I repeat. All games played in Gom Classic S2 are not official Kespa games.
The Korean word you're looking for here is 공인리그 (I have no idea what the correct translation for this word). It means that Kespa recognized Gom Classic S2 as a league. It doesn't mean that the games played are official Kespa games. Like I've said before, there are other leagues which got the same treatment by Kespa, but are not recorded by TLPD.
There are numerous problems with "fixing" TLPD to suit a certain standard that copying the list of Kespa officiated games (as stupid as it is) might be the simplest solution if TLPD isn't intending on listing all the games played in progaming history. Otherwise, we might as well keep it as it is. The only thing that Kespa officiated games have going for them is the fact that all teams have a responsibility to take part, unlike non-official competitions like Gom Classic S2 which some teams can choose not participate.
There's so many questions to be had if you're trying to "adjust" list so that it only differs slightly from the list of Kespa officiated games to suit your standards. For example, for those who want to rule out invitational tournaments, you might want to rule out the 1st KPGA league. Although it is recognized as the first "major" MBC Game league, it was a 16 man invitational just like the Gom Invitational. Being Kespa officiated and not being an invitational type competition have little correlation with one another.
For those who want to add all "streamed" streamed games just to add Gom Classic games, what about all those unofficial team battles between progaming teams being streamed on Afreeca? They're not recorded by anyone. Where do we stop with the "streamed" games? What about all those foreign competitions that have progamer participation? If money is all that matters these competitions certainly must mean more for gamers like Orion than the official games.
And where do we draw the line for televised games? For example, Chinese competitions like IEF was aired on television using the replays from the tournament, although it was not aired live. Does that count? Should we only record "live" games on air? What about the gaming channels? Should we start listing all the non-official (more like before Kespa) competitions that were aired on television? What about the gaming channels? Is that important? Should we only count OGN and MBC Game hosted games since they're the only two existing channels that air progaming? Or do we include any games on television? I'm pretty sure there's a lot of competitions aired on other gaming channels that later died out not listed by TLPD for whatever reasons. How about offline qualifiers that get aired on television? Some of the games played during the qualifying stages are televised, although they keep switching the games mid-stage to see how the more famous players are doing.
See the problem? There's no clear cut standard to be had. Even Kespa officiated games are not all aired on television. Kespa Cup was not aired on television if I remember correctly. The only consistent standard worth noting in recent Kespa officiated games is that all teams have a responsibility to take part. The thing is, there are Kespa officiated games before this standard was applied (because like I've said before, progaming on television predates Kespa), so even this doesn't mean all that much.
Adding, or taking away a couple of competitions to the list won't make anything "better" if you're not giving things tons of thought. Even then, is anyone going to be sure that they're judgement is correct? Who are they to decide which games are important if they haven't been watching ALL the games that were ever played? Further more, even if you were there right from the beginning watching every single games played by progamers, can you be sure you're not biased if you are just going by your gut feeling? I don't know, I think some things are beyond our powers.
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So letmelose... what would you suggest? :p
I would argue in favor of adding gom s1 to TLPD since gom s2 is... GSI is already there but as a special -- I wouldn't be opposed to adding that either. I already argued for the JD/Bisu show match in. I think it would be a good idea to record "all" the games from now on personally as it will give a better "accuracy" to ELO values.
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We use TLPD to measure progamers win ratios and to estimate who has the best chance of winning. If we don't add every televised game to it would we not have the most accurate ratios to make the best estimates from?
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Braavos36390 Posts
Jaedong's ELO reached a new peak now, he's at 2314
he's almost peaked in every MU too, pretty sick
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On March 22 2009 15:22 Hot_Bid wrote:
Jaedong's ELO reached a new peak now, he's at 2314
he's almost peaked in every MU too, pretty sick
forget about ELO, that + Show Spoiler + was freaking amazing
you're next, by.hero
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goddamn Jaedong played like a fucking beast today :O
it's about he gets the results he deserves :D
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He's going to break the unbelievable record of OOv's vsZ by winning the first game against by.hero.
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More or less off-topic, the front page says Bisu's top ELO is 2345 while TLPD says 3353. Does that mean you aren't considering GomgTV s2 matches ?
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EPT
