EPTWhich is the strongest race in raw power? - Page 4
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
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drift0ut
United Kingdom691 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15271 | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
A lot of units and spells which are normally devastating would become useless if the game was played perfectly. You'd need spells which always hit, like irradiate, broodling or something like that. Dark archons would probably be too expensive to build them (Korean pros rarely get them these days in PvZ, so I guess the better your opponent is the less DAs you are able to get... in PvT it would be a total waste to get even one), but if you could get them they would own mostly due to feedback. | ||
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
Though the existance of 4 microed groups of mutas is very fearsome too. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
the only problem here is that one person's idea of perfection is way different from another person's idea. One guy is like, "oh, with perfect dark swarms and troop movement Zerg would be 100% invincible vs Terran, plus with perfect scourge micro too!" And then someone else who thinks Terran would be perfect basically assumes the opposite and is like, "the vessels would NEVER die! and the T would be able to dodge swarms perfectly!" So it ends up that what we're really comparing here is two perfect AI opponent's of two seperate races which each execute all of their actions "perfect" and are flawless, and in order for that to happen the AI would have to in turn have it's own idea of "perfection" and would already therefore be a sentient AI, aka life, able to make it's own decisions, and compete against other "perfect" AI's, which in turn would have to adapt and play strategically vs the other "perfect" AI's. Which then means that neither would end up being perfect because each one would have to adapt to the other's "perfect" play and then mistakes and advantages to be gained are possible...lol. So um, yeh...we don't have that sentient robotic life yet lol. | ||
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diehilde1
Germany522 Posts
On June 17 2008 07:48 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Terran would be the best if you could play perfectly. All tanks spread perfectly (storm/stasis useless because it would always hit only 1 tank at a time), perfect use of EMP and irradiate (the perfect irradiates would decimate any Zerg), never lose vessels to scourge (which results in a huge vessel cloud which always irradiates right when there is 75 energy... we all know how fucked Zerg is when T has so many vessels). Carriers/arbiters useless because of ghosts/lockdown which always hits. Oh, and lurkers would never hit a marine of course (perfect marine micro). Lurkers would only be there to deny the Terran access to certain areas when under dark swarm, but they could never damage anything. To top it all off, Terran has the highest firepower, best defensive capabilities and the lowest resource needs. Na you got it totally wrong. What use is irradiate against a perfect Z? NONE thats right. With EVERY unit loaded in overlords and quickly dropped in/out to a fresh overlord if the overlord is infected its impossible to irradiate anything but overlords (and overlords = infinite unlike vessels). Also the energy... Defilers have consume, other spell casters would have to wait for energy. For a theoretically perfect player this is a game breaking advantage. im sure u can place ur ovies in such a way with a defiler and lings in it that u can plague the whole map every 2 sec. And I mean the whole friggin map, no pixel of it not getting plagued. The low supply cost of zerg units and the infinite dropships and mana make it by far the most abusable with infinite apm. Other races are limited by supply or mana. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
That actually just got me thinking that Z might be >> T much earlier already due to perfect muta control (and the first vessel wouldn't stop the mutas at all). Hmm. :p | ||
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
On June 17 2008 20:08 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Storms would be useless. Every unit would dodge every storm perfectly. Stasis too... every unit would spread right before the stasis hits. Same with scarabs, lurker spines, maelstrom and d-web. A lot of units and spells which are normally devastating would become useless if the game was played perfectly. You'd need spells which always hit, like irradiate, broodling or something like that. Dark archons would probably be too expensive to build them (Korean pros rarely get them these days in PvZ, so I guess the better your opponent is the less DAs you are able to get... in PvT it would be a total waste to get even one), but if you could get them they would own mostly due to feedback. What about lack of space? In order to win you need your 200/200 so the units cannot dodge forever, maybe 3-4 times but then it's over. And when they spread and dodge they are also more vulnerable to attacks because their firepower is reduced drastically. That's actually the basics of why protoss has become so much stronger nowadays, even perfect AI can't get around that. | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
But, without the vision of opponent there's no perfect player obviously. It's like asking the perfect player for rock, paper, scissors. | ||
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XtaC_hiryu
Philippines125 Posts
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Ozarugold
2716 Posts
On June 17 2008 17:13 jjun212 wrote: huh? if you're saying toss players rely on that stuff and therefore they are not the strongest for pure brute force then it can be applied to the other 2 races as well. your logic is lame. think about how you explained toss and replace it with how you talked about terran "sorry terran players, but without your range, you're shit" "sorry zerg players, without micro, you're shit" sorry Ozarugold, but your sc reasoning is bad Ah no, I think you've misunderstood me, or perhaps it was my poor choice of words, if that then I apologize. Regardless, I guess what I'm trying to say is that from my point of view, each of their racial strength is accentuated differently. I feel like Zerg could get the most out of early game harassment, which is as I said is when the game would probably be determined. The potential of the marine cant be fully utilized without the aide of bunker or medics and zealots could be outrun by drones and so forth. | ||
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Ozarugold
2716 Posts
On June 17 2008 18:43 Camlito wrote: Parasite isn't 12, that means you would need vision to hit it at it's fullest potential, and queens always move before using it (in your vision), so yeh :D. Really? My apologies then. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On June 17 2008 20:23 diehilde wrote: Na you got it totally wrong. What use is irradiate against a perfect Z? NONE thats right. With EVERY unit loaded in overlords and quickly dropped in/out to a fresh overlord if the overlord is infected its impossible to irradiate anything but overlords (and overlords = infinite unlike vessels). Also the energy... Defilers have consume, other spell casters would have to wait for energy. For a theoretically perfect player this is a game breaking advantage. im sure u can place ur ovies in such a way with a defiler and lings in it that u can plague the whole map every 2 sec. And I mean the whole friggin map, no pixel of it not getting plagued. The low supply cost of zerg units and the infinite dropships and mana make it by far the most abusable with infinite apm. Other races are limited by supply or mana. If we're going by "perfect play" rules (lol...) then um, my perfect T comp would be able to perfectly select the unit dropped out of the overlord the instant it's dropped out. So it wouldn't matter if the zerg unit is reloaded because it'd be irradiated lol. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On June 18 2008 02:32 avilo wrote: If we're going by "perfect play" rules (lol...) then um, my perfect T comp would be able to perfectly select the unit dropped out of the overlord the instant it's dropped out. So it wouldn't matter if the zerg unit is reloaded because it'd be irradiated lol. but vs perfect scourge micro, the vessel wouldnt be able to come in range of any defilers!!! this thread is a big paradox x.x | ||
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Hyperionnn
Turkey4968 Posts
On June 17 2008 22:04 XtaC_hiryu wrote: TERRAN... flying buildings everywhere.. LOL This guy is right, can you think that he has tons of buildings flying over his army, you do not know where is his army, you can not cast targeted spells etc.. But terran is more powerful anyway imo. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
I personally think, that if both players are perfect, an expected rush would always fail. I don't think the games would be decided by rush every time. Only in...well BO wins (14cc vs 9pool) I imagine that most cheese is really effective because the enemy either doesn't expect, becomes flustered and therefore careless, or has been practising loads to play a long game. A perfect player would have perfect scouting micro and scouting efficiency. I doubt cheese would dominate. | ||
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
- Zerg would always win vs. Terrans with perfect muta micro. Just imagine 2*12 mutas, each group attacking somewhere else with perfect micro... no chance at all for the Terran. Or maybe 3 groups of 8, or other combinations. Should he somehow survive it, I think Terran would win later on. Remember that irradiate will only kill 1 muta, the rest would spread perfectly - Terrans would always win vs. Protoss with perfect M&M micro. No need for tank/vult at all... - Not sure about PvZ | ||
Xeofreestyler
Belgium6777 Posts
On June 18 2008 03:25 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Ok I think I got it now (yeah right... like there's a definite answer :p): - Zerg would always win vs. Terrans with perfect muta micro. Just imagine 2*12 mutas, each group attacking somewhere else with perfect micro... no chance at all for the Terran. Or maybe 3 groups of 8, or other combinations. Should he somehow survive it, I think Terran would win later on. Remember that irradiate will only kill 1 muta, the rest would spread perfectly - Terrans would always win vs. Protoss with perfect M&M micro. No need for tank/vult at all... - Not sure about PvZ -I'm not sure. -Indeed. Remember that deep6 thread we had a while back? Perfect micro and macro is all this strat needs from being REALLY strong. -I think P would win. Look at how bisu was extremely dominant in his pvz. Its because of his extreme multitasking and micro. But then again z's def could be really sick at the same time. So not very sure. | ||
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