|
After having played the AI for starcraft just now, cos I wanted to have a go at the missions, I got to wondering. The AI plays all units so well, as if it is playing FPS with them. I'm using an updated AI I think but well it has loads of errors but the raw ability is interesting.
I was wonder, in a contest of strength (not special strategies but special battle tactics can be used), if every unit were given full attention, which race would be the strongest?
With terran, there are loads of things that could boost power with this infinite apm idea...repair is not used much in late game (due to apm constraints), ghosts are completely underused although lockdown is very effective, minespamming and tank setup is nowhere near perfect even from the best progamers in the heat of battle, energy shield, irradiate and emp could be used more. With those things changed, I wonder if perhaps terran would have the most raw power?
Though I don't know about toss or zerg that much, I am sure they would be hugely boosted. Of course the spellcasters would be the most boosted. Maybe toss would have the most raw power?
Poll: Most Raw Power
(Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Zerg
|
protoss wouldn't be as strong as you think i don't think. They have precious few units to micro to start with, and most of protoss is out-thinking anyways.
zerg would be very strong, in a flank, now it's all mostly attack move, but if every single zergling has abit of AI of its own it will actually be amazingly effective, they won't clump and would just seive right through your army and rape it.
Burrow would be so strong as well.
TvP would be 20 dropships and 40 tanks popping tank in and out, goons can't even hit it ~~
|
zerg for sure.... infinite dropships with perfect unit pickup and defiler micro (and im talkin 20+ ovis microed simultaenously) should be almost impossible to beat.
|
Depends on the unit combinations...
I don't think any amount of micro'd ghosts will beat an equal cost guardian army...
Also, the type of terrain would factor in greatly in flanks and air unit usage.
Overall, I'd say that in open terrain zerg>protoss>terran
and in tight terrain protoss>terran>zerg
|
Protoss for sure. Dark Archons would actualy be a viable option and perfectly aimed storms + reaver scarabs would ravage pretty much everything.
|
My first instinct is Terran, but after some consideration, I don't know anymore. M&M would be really strong with perfect micro but Protoss can just blanket an entire area with storms. Also, crackling abuse would be so strong with infinite apm.
|
id say terran for sure, if you have ever played vs a computer terran in earlier versions and felt the pain that is 3 epms and 10 lockdowns in a second you would agree i think !!
|
It really depends on the resources given to the people. Terran definitely has a lot more possibilities, however it depends on how many units you are given. With all the spells Terran is much more flexible but since you'd need many of the unit to pull off the spell (no consume) you'd be detracting from your main damage dealers like siege tanks or mnm. For example if you got 20 ghosts, you may be able to lockdown many goons but if you don't have enough tanks to clean up the rest of the army it's not going to be necessarily useful.
Zerg would probably strongest in terms of not detracting the army strength because of using spellcasters. You might have just a few defilers and scourge with perfect micro should be able to help the defilers live the constant irradiates you might face from the Terran opponent, and you'll be able to pull off perfect dark swarms and plagues to get your army up in close and personal. Don't know whether queens would be ideal however, it's questionable but they definitely have their uses.
Protoss has got the high templar, and if the templar can pull off perfect storms you could nearly decimate an opposing army. Mass dark archons could be useful in some situations as well, but other than that you really don't have too many other spellcasters that would be useful (mass arbiterrr~)
It really depends on the resource allocations as well as what types of units the enemy as and etc. I'd say they would still be quite equal in strength nonetheless because of the raw strength of psionic storms for Protoss against brute army with spell support for Zerg and inactivation spells from Terran all have their uses, so I can't really choose between one.
|
but how do you perfectly storm perfectly microed zerglings?
|
On June 17 2008 07:39 Navane wrote:
but how do you perfectly storm perfectly microed zerglings?
LOL. Good question.
|
Haha good point  Well then, I guess ultraling defiler could beat everything!
|
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
isn't this the same as the old "strongest race in theory" threads that were popping up last year.
|
I think shield batteries are underused because they require like 500 apm and full concentration to use properly. Therefore, I conclude Protoss would win every game with a minimum of 100 shield batteries, manner shield batteries, and shield battery walls.
IE: This is a pretty silly question, and I prefer the "if gods played StarCraft," brain teaser.
|
Well superiorwolf the raw power aspect is regardless of amount of units. I'm just saying in general. So basically taking into account every part of the game from early to late; on for example Proleague maps.
|
On June 17 2008 07:42 thedeadhaji wrote:
isn't this the same as the old "strongest race in theory" threads that were popping up last year.
yep
this thread will go no where, there is no "right" answer
|
Terran would be the best if you could play perfectly.
All tanks spread perfectly (storm/stasis useless because it would always hit only 1 tank at a time), perfect use of EMP and irradiate (the perfect irradiates would decimate any Zerg), never lose vessels to scourge (which results in a huge vessel cloud which always irradiates right when there is 75 energy... we all know how fucked Zerg is when T has so many vessels). Carriers/arbiters useless because of ghosts/lockdown which always hits.
Oh, and lurkers would never hit a marine of course (perfect marine micro). Lurkers would only be there to deny the Terran access to certain areas when under dark swarm, but they could never damage anything.
To top it all off, Terran has the highest firepower, best defensive capabilities and the lowest resource needs.
|
perfect scv rush every game o.o
|
On June 17 2008 07:47 Wizard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2008 07:42 thedeadhaji wrote:
isn't this the same as the old "strongest race in theory" threads that were popping up last year. yep this thread will go no where, there is no "right" answer
I don't see why there has to be a right answer. This is an opinion poll. Plus I'm just interested to see what other people think about the matter! Not so terrible imo. Will probably die out soon but it's still interesting to see some people's ways of thinking about it.
I always wonder if progaming will continue to increase until a level like using ghosts and stuff perfectly!
|
On June 17 2008 07:53 Leath wrote:
perfect scv rush every game o.o
winner
|
On June 17 2008 07:53 Leath wrote:
perfect scv rush every game o.o
That wouldn't work, perfectly microed probes/drones > perfectly microed scvs
damn their range and rechargable hp/shields
|
Terran, for the same reasons everyone else has said.
|
Protoss, every game. Perfectly microed probes, 0 deceleration > all
|
On June 17 2008 08:16 mmmf[r]ogs wrote:That wouldn't work, perfectly microed probes/drones > perfectly microed scvs damn their range and rechargable hp/shields
SCV's can repair faster than shields/hp recharge.
Two or three SCV's work to repair each other and kill the enemy's nexus/hatchery/CC while whatever other SCV's there are work to force probes/drones to fight back, run, or be destroyed.
|
Zerg. Flawlessly microed zerglings, lurkers, perfect swarms, perfect plagues, every overlord constantly picking up weak units and redropping them etc.
Mostly it's the defilers that do it
|
Once again, SC would be perfect.
Because If all units microed perfect, then it's still even I guess O_O
|
On June 17 2008 09:01 InfesTeD]i[ wrote:
Once again, SC would be perfect.
Because If all units microed perfect, then it's still even I guess O_O
You said it. But observers>all :p
|
Terran
terran has the most potential, its just extremely hard to get to that level
|
terran easilly
there is a reason P and Z need more expos then the T
its because there units kill at a much higher ratio then P and Z. if it wern't for there lack of mobility, P and Z would never beat them.
|
United States5262 Posts
On June 17 2008 08:56 Tropics wrote:
Zerg. Flawlessly microed zerglings, lurkers, perfect swarms, perfect plagues, every overlord constantly picking up weak units and redropping them etc.
Mostly it's the defilers that do it
The thing is, flawlessly microed marines own flawlessly microed zerglings and lurkers. Flawlessly microed marines will run away from flawlessly cast swarms and plagues will be kept to a minimum.
|
I think one of the scariest things would be perfect medic micro to heal all marines amazingly. Also, running mechs from the battle at 1 red health, to get repaired and then return to the battle
|
even my terran friends like artosis and shit say that if the game was played perfectly, terran would be the best easilly. and they are the most self-hating players i've ever seen, always talking about how imba p and z are and how there are no terran maps and how hard terran is etc...
terran is the best race in raw form without a doubt. just the fact that they r so versatile on maps too make them even more deadly.
|
On June 17 2008 08:24 Conquest101 wrote:
Protoss, every game. Perfectly microed probes, 0 deceleration > all
This is it for normal maps I think. At least terran is out of the question. Probe/drone rush and perfect simultaneous devil probe will kill all scvs immediately. And even if T managed to rush to get out a marine, the drone/probes would just move-shoot them to death before they cuold get many shots of. scvs trying to build bunkers would be deviled quickly as well.
But since the probes would never slow down to a standstill the acceleration wouldnt come into play. Shields recharge quicker than drones heal, but the drones can hunt down probes by perfect move-shoot micro, so once in range of each other, the one getting the upper hand will kill the other worker quite fast. So all in all i dont htink the porbe rush would work vs zerg. I claim that 4 probes cannot beat 6-9 drones, or however many you have by that time, since the probes can be killed by perfect move-shoot.
I think a perfectly microed 9 pool speedlings (all building will die quickly by just staying out of lot/probe range and approaching from all directions) can kill a toss that open with gates. Some sort of forge-first with a wallin and probe block if needed would probably defend this though, so imo, ZVP would at least go beyond lings/lots even with perfect micro.
Possibly a 2 hatch upped hydras would kill everything. cannons would probably not be enough (or would they?), and lots would die without getting a single hit in. I dont really know what toss can do to counter a 2 hatch hydra build actually.
Remember that zerg will cycle damaged hydras perfectly, while cannons stays where they are. And some fast zealot thingy to intercept hte hydra build will not work since drones are faster and will quickly devil-drone and/or move-shoot them to death without taking a single hit from the lots. Maybe if the cannons are up a ramp...
If it'd go to endgame, zerg would probably win since with a few defilers (and no cooldown consume) you can advance and lay out a carpet of swarm/plauge as quick as a defiler can move. Then you can easily corner the toss army somewhere and kill it with crack/ultra/lurk. Storm is an issue, but with queens and spawn broodling that shouldnt be too big a problem. Dont know if DAs could be a problem with mind control and/or feedback...
Same thing with endgame ZvT i think. carpet of swarm/plauge > terran. you would need a few hydras and scourges to defend from irradiate, but that should be ok. Just keep OLs exactly above the defiler to make it impossible for the terran to target them.  Or pick them up just before vessels are in range in worst case. Im fairly sure that the outer part of a plauge will outrange irradiate, so the defiler should be able to get a plague of before getti gpicked up by the OL. so vessels shouldnt be a problem. And lurks > bats+medics, so you cant do anything with those. Same goes for mines. And tht is moreor less everything terran has that does damamge unders warm, so.... gg. 
omg, that was a long post... well, that's the answer anyways.
Z > all (in theory)
|
This makes a paradox. Perfectly placed storms would always make the largest amount of marines possible take damage, but perfectly microed marines would never take damage from storms.
|
Valhalla18444 Posts
theyd still take damage what are you talking about
|
The "probes with perfect micro > all" is a good point, but I think it still wouldn't work. If you do a rush with your first 4 probes, you first have to scout, and when you've found him you don't do much damage. Your opponent can get a fast pool with a sunken, or marines, or a zealot (the perfectly microed probes could theoretically kill the zealot without taking damage but it takes far too long... when he's at low HP P will have more zeals already or a goon and then it's over). Basically, your perfectly microed probes can only win the game before the opponent gets his first combat unit. Which is unlikely to happen... if you wait for more than 4 probes you give him even more time for that.
|
United States20665 Posts
Haven't y'all read the X comic?
perfect multiple moving-shot probes would rape the shit out of scvs.
Drones have a slight range advantage, though, so a 4-drone rush would theoretically win every game.
|
On June 17 2008 09:50 Last Romantic wrote:
Haven't y'all read the X comic?
perfect multiple moving-shot probes would rape the shit out of scvs.
Drones have a slight range advantage, though, so a 4-drone rush would theoretically win every game.
eh? dont probes outrange drones?
|
On June 17 2008 09:50 Last Romantic wrote:
Drones have a slight range advantagegame.
They do??
Ok, that settles that then.
Z > all
|
Addon to my last post: of course I'm assuming that you don't do some sort of greedy build, because then the perfect probes would kill you. But if you know you might get rushed by perfectly microed probes, you can get a pool/rax/gate *fast* enough and get a combat unit or sunken out in time, before all your workers die to the probes.
|
On June 17 2008 08:24 Conquest101 wrote:
Protoss, every game. Perfectly microed probes, 0 deceleration > all
LOL guy is right! Terran is weak lol 4 probe rush ur screwed.
|
Terran are easily the most powerful, and since TvZ is nearing joke status, that leaves Protoss as still competitive because they are close to even with Terran. Too bad the amount of whining I hear from Terran players about Protoss on these boards is staggering. I read stuff like "all Protss have to do is attack move to win" and "Protoss take half the skill of Terran" and "If you have basic macro skills you can win easy with Protoss" lolz. Sry TvP can't be 70% like TvZ so suck it the @#$% up and learn to cope.
|
|
|
in terms of if it were a computer that controled every aspect with perfeection. i wud go with my main race because corsairs > all ground(d-web), and scout > all air, its simple as that just add some reavs/temps/D-archons/carriers/goons/zeals/shuttles/probesforthehellofit.
|
Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Perfect Terran vs Perfect Protoss vs Perfect Zerg. Something's gotta give, and thus they're not perfect. Hard to really say which race is stronger. There's limitless opportunities, and numerous counters for each unit that it becomes a continual chain.
|
Or it might end up being like that one movie.... War Games I think? Where that supercomputer plays itself at tic-tac-toe, etc. and naturally ties every time.
So same in SC maybe, stalemate every game, though than you have to factor in map imbalance haha. So assume some theoretical "perfectly" balanced map as well.
Zerg = Terran = Toss
|
I really really hope that someday someone makes a "deep blue" type starcraft playing computer. I would love to see a game between this sort of "ultimate ai" and boxer.
|
Hong Kong20321 Posts
terran imba ez damned effectively microed terran units are so fucking imba wtf -_-
|
just have the pros play at slowest speed setting. or better yet team melee on slowest.
my vote goes for terran.
edit- or if that takes too long, you could play the game on 16x fastest or something to show which race is the crappiest.
|
protoss has feedback with dark archon, which outranges almost all other spells (I think the only exception is yamato), so he could eat all enemies' spellcasters before using anything. so like 1 dark archon = 5 dead defilers
|
I think there's a difference between "playing a like a human, but with 5000 apm" and truly "perfect" play. "Perfect" play might be so different from current human play that it could be hard to even imagine (assuming the game actually doesn't just end with worker rushes).
|
I guess you could try out 5000apm stuff by playing games with the speed right down, so that you can play the best game ever. A bit like standard chess vs blitz. A couple of games like that would probably sort out a lot of the controversy here, but they would be extreemely boring.
|
On June 17 2008 13:24 Luddite wrote:
I really really hope that someday someone makes a "deep blue" type starcraft playing computer. I would love to see a game between this sort of "ultimate ai" and boxer.
It really depends on how crazy you wanna make it, cause if you think about you could have theoretically, 3 hatch mutas into mass mutas, with like 9 different groups of 8 stacked mutas being controlled at the same time and just raping everything, the computer could put infinite mutas stacked cause it wouldn't need an ol to do so, maybe instead of using hold position to fire randomly to kill multiple rines with one shot it could just instantly divide up the muta shots, telling 4 mutas to hit this marine at 50% hp and 2 mutas to hit this one at 25% hp and the other 6 to hit this one at 100% hp, all while staying stacked. imagine a stack of 45 mutas before you've got a vessel, because you won't be able to kill any of em, and even if you did irradiate one the computer would split it perfectly and instantly, hell it wouldn't even do anything cause the computer would split all the mutas apart as teh vessel came in to completely negate any irradiate splash
etc.
|
hahaha yes that's exactly the sort of thing i want to see! But it would still be a computer, so it would still make some dumb mistake like letting all 45 mutas die to one irradiate.
|
On June 17 2008 13:23 Conquest101 wrote:
Or it might end up being like that one movie.... War Games I think? Where that supercomputer plays itself at tic-tac-toe, etc. and naturally ties every time.
Err if I play myself tictactoe it'll be tie too... tictactoe is always tie.
|
On June 17 2008 14:39 ZBiR wrote:protoss has feedback with dark archon, which outranges almost all other spells (I think the only exception is yamato), so he could eat all enemies' spellcasters before using anything. so like 1 dark archon = 5 dead defilers
wow you are actually right! Feedback has long range of 10! this is so long haha
but even so protoss can shuttle lift the DA to save hime
|
I think Parasite have a range of 12 if I remember correctly.
Anyways, I think that everything will be determined early game. Each race would go for the most efficient cheese or counter-cheese and the game will be determined that way. For that I'd have to say Zerg would win because of their insane Zergling harassment strength. Although if my early game theory is wrong, I'd have to go with Terran with their untouchable range...
Sorry Protoss players, but I think Protoss players rely more on disabling more than anything. Hurt their economy with storms, reavers, DT drops, or recall or disabling their army with Maelstrom, Stasis, and Dweb.
|
On June 17 2008 17:10 Ozarugold wrote:
I think Parasite have a range of 12 if I remember correctly.
Anyways, I think that everything will be determined early game. Each race would go for the most efficient cheese or counter-cheese and the game will be determined that way. For that I'd have to say Zerg would win because of their insane Zergling harassment strength. Although if my early game theory is wrong, I'd have to go with Terran with their untouchable range...
Sorry Protoss players, but I think Protoss players rely more on disabling more than anything. Hurt their economy with storms, reavers, DT drops, or recall or disabling their army with Maelstrom, Stasis, and Dweb.
huh?
if you're saying toss players rely on that stuff and therefore they are not the strongest for pure brute force then it can be applied to the other 2 races as well. your logic is lame.
think about how you explained toss and replace it with how you talked about terran
"sorry terran players, but without your range, you're shit"
"sorry zerg players, without micro, you're shit"
sorry Ozarugold, but your sc reasoning is bad
|
id say terran. people might be inclined to say protoss, just because units cost more, are stronger, and take more up psi, but damn, upgrades really swing things towards terran
|
Um totally impossible to answer a vaguely proposed question like this. besides its irrelevant
|
Parasite isn't 12, that means you would need vision to hit it at it's fullest potential, and queens always move before using it (in your vision), so yeh :D.
|
Of course protoss is the strongest in that case because of infinite stasis, psi storm, reaver and recall and as little extra you have mind control, feedback, maelstrom, d-web... you can't possibly beat that if there is no strategy involved at all.
|
|
|
Storms would be useless. Every unit would dodge every storm perfectly. Stasis too... every unit would spread right before the stasis hits. Same with scarabs, lurker spines, maelstrom and d-web.
A lot of units and spells which are normally devastating would become useless if the game was played perfectly. You'd need spells which always hit, like irradiate, broodling or something like that.
Dark archons would probably be too expensive to build them (Korean pros rarely get them these days in PvZ, so I guess the better your opponent is the less DAs you are able to get... in PvT it would be a total waste to get even one), but if you could get them they would own mostly due to feedback.
|
Terran. Medics blind every detector -> cloaked wraiths -> gg.
Though the existance of 4 microed groups of mutas is very fearsome too.
|
So basically this thread is like voting for an AI you think would win with your own idea of "perfection." Which then in turn assumes that that AI can play that race "perfectly" vs even another AI that plays "perfectly."
the only problem here is that one person's idea of perfection is way different from another person's idea. One guy is like, "oh, with perfect dark swarms and troop movement Zerg would be 100% invincible vs Terran, plus with perfect scourge micro too!" And then someone else who thinks Terran would be perfect basically assumes the opposite and is like, "the vessels would NEVER die! and the T would be able to dodge swarms perfectly!"
So it ends up that what we're really comparing here is two perfect AI opponent's of two seperate races which each execute all of their actions "perfect" and are flawless, and in order for that to happen the AI would have to in turn have it's own idea of "perfection" and would already therefore be a sentient AI, aka life, able to make it's own decisions, and compete against other "perfect" AI's, which in turn would have to adapt and play strategically vs the other "perfect" AI's. Which then means that neither would end up being perfect because each one would have to adapt to the other's "perfect" play and then mistakes and advantages to be gained are possible...lol.
So um, yeh...we don't have that sentient robotic life yet lol.
|
On June 17 2008 07:48 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Terran would be the best if you could play perfectly.
All tanks spread perfectly (storm/stasis useless because it would always hit only 1 tank at a time), perfect use of EMP and irradiate (the perfect irradiates would decimate any Zerg), never lose vessels to scourge (which results in a huge vessel cloud which always irradiates right when there is 75 energy... we all know how fucked Zerg is when T has so many vessels). Carriers/arbiters useless because of ghosts/lockdown which always hits.
Oh, and lurkers would never hit a marine of course (perfect marine micro). Lurkers would only be there to deny the Terran access to certain areas when under dark swarm, but they could never damage anything.
To top it all off, Terran has the highest firepower, best defensive capabilities and the lowest resource needs.
Na you got it totally wrong. What use is irradiate against a perfect Z? NONE thats right. With EVERY unit loaded in overlords and quickly dropped in/out to a fresh overlord if the overlord is infected its impossible to irradiate anything but overlords (and overlords = infinite unlike vessels).
Also the energy... Defilers have consume, other spell casters would have to wait for energy. For a theoretically perfect player this is a game breaking advantage. im sure u can place ur ovies in such a way with a defiler and lings in it that u can plague the whole map every 2 sec. And I mean the whole friggin map, no pixel of it not getting plagued. The low supply cost of zerg units and the infinite dropships and mana make it by far the most abusable with infinite apm. Other races are limited by supply or mana.
|
Well, irradiate would be used to take out single defilers and lurkers, and to weaken ultras, like it is normally. Mutas would spread perfectly anyway, so the area of effect damage irradiate does can be ignored.
That actually just got me thinking that Z might be >> T much earlier already due to perfect muta control (and the first vessel wouldn't stop the mutas at all). Hmm. :p
|
On June 17 2008 20:08 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Storms would be useless. Every unit would dodge every storm perfectly. Stasis too... every unit would spread right before the stasis hits. Same with scarabs, lurker spines, maelstrom and d-web.
A lot of units and spells which are normally devastating would become useless if the game was played perfectly. You'd need spells which always hit, like irradiate, broodling or something like that.
Dark archons would probably be too expensive to build them (Korean pros rarely get them these days in PvZ, so I guess the better your opponent is the less DAs you are able to get... in PvT it would be a total waste to get even one), but if you could get them they would own mostly due to feedback.
What about lack of space? In order to win you need your 200/200 so the units cannot dodge forever, maybe 3-4 times but then it's over. And when they spread and dodge they are also more vulnerable to attacks because their firepower is reduced drastically. That's actually the basics of why protoss has become so much stronger nowadays, even perfect AI can't get around that.
|
OK, now if you think about it, the perfect play can be only when both opponents have the map vision of each other. Now, assuming both players knows exactly what the opponent does now, it could be really interesting to see how the perfect players do.
But, without the vision of opponent there's no perfect player obviously. It's like asking the perfect player for rock, paper, scissors.
|
TERRAN... flying buildings everywhere.. LOL
|
On June 17 2008 17:13 jjun212 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2008 17:10 Ozarugold wrote:
I think Parasite have a range of 12 if I remember correctly.
Anyways, I think that everything will be determined early game. Each race would go for the most efficient cheese or counter-cheese and the game will be determined that way. For that I'd have to say Zerg would win because of their insane Zergling harassment strength. Although if my early game theory is wrong, I'd have to go with Terran with their untouchable range...
Sorry Protoss players, but I think Protoss players rely more on disabling more than anything. Hurt their economy with storms, reavers, DT drops, or recall or disabling their army with Maelstrom, Stasis, and Dweb. huh? if you're saying toss players rely on that stuff and therefore they are not the strongest for pure brute force then it can be applied to the other 2 races as well. your logic is lame. think about how you explained toss and replace it with how you talked about terran "sorry terran players, but without your range, you're shit" "sorry zerg players, without micro, you're shit" sorry Ozarugold, but your sc reasoning is bad
Ah no, I think you've misunderstood me, or perhaps it was my poor choice of words, if that then I apologize. Regardless, I guess what I'm trying to say is that from my point of view, each of their racial strength is accentuated differently. I feel like Zerg could get the most out of early game harassment, which is as I said is when the game would probably be determined. The potential of the marine cant be fully utilized without the aide of bunker or medics and zealots could be outrun by drones and so forth.
|
On June 17 2008 18:43 Camlito wrote:
Parasite isn't 12, that means you would need vision to hit it at it's fullest potential, and queens always move before using it (in your vision), so yeh :D.
Really? My apologies then.
|
On June 17 2008 20:23 diehilde wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2008 07:48 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Terran would be the best if you could play perfectly.
All tanks spread perfectly (storm/stasis useless because it would always hit only 1 tank at a time), perfect use of EMP and irradiate (the perfect irradiates would decimate any Zerg), never lose vessels to scourge (which results in a huge vessel cloud which always irradiates right when there is 75 energy... we all know how fucked Zerg is when T has so many vessels). Carriers/arbiters useless because of ghosts/lockdown which always hits.
Oh, and lurkers would never hit a marine of course (perfect marine micro). Lurkers would only be there to deny the Terran access to certain areas when under dark swarm, but they could never damage anything.
To top it all off, Terran has the highest firepower, best defensive capabilities and the lowest resource needs. Na you got it totally wrong. What use is irradiate against a perfect Z? NONE thats right. With EVERY unit loaded in overlords and quickly dropped in/out to a fresh overlord if the overlord is infected its impossible to irradiate anything but overlords (and overlords = infinite unlike vessels). Also the energy... Defilers have consume, other spell casters would have to wait for energy. For a theoretically perfect player this is a game breaking advantage. im sure u can place ur ovies in such a way with a defiler and lings in it that u can plague the whole map every 2 sec. And I mean the whole friggin map, no pixel of it not getting plagued. The low supply cost of zerg units and the infinite dropships and mana make it by far the most abusable with infinite apm. Other races are limited by supply or mana.
If we're going by "perfect play" rules (lol...) then um, my perfect T comp would be able to perfectly select the unit dropped out of the overlord the instant it's dropped out. So it wouldn't matter if the zerg unit is reloaded because it'd be irradiated lol.
|
|
|
On June 18 2008 02:32 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2008 20:23 diehilde wrote:On June 17 2008 07:48 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Terran would be the best if you could play perfectly.
All tanks spread perfectly (storm/stasis useless because it would always hit only 1 tank at a time), perfect use of EMP and irradiate (the perfect irradiates would decimate any Zerg), never lose vessels to scourge (which results in a huge vessel cloud which always irradiates right when there is 75 energy... we all know how fucked Zerg is when T has so many vessels). Carriers/arbiters useless because of ghosts/lockdown which always hits.
Oh, and lurkers would never hit a marine of course (perfect marine micro). Lurkers would only be there to deny the Terran access to certain areas when under dark swarm, but they could never damage anything.
To top it all off, Terran has the highest firepower, best defensive capabilities and the lowest resource needs. Na you got it totally wrong. What use is irradiate against a perfect Z? NONE thats right. With EVERY unit loaded in overlords and quickly dropped in/out to a fresh overlord if the overlord is infected its impossible to irradiate anything but overlords (and overlords = infinite unlike vessels). Also the energy... Defilers have consume, other spell casters would have to wait for energy. For a theoretically perfect player this is a game breaking advantage. im sure u can place ur ovies in such a way with a defiler and lings in it that u can plague the whole map every 2 sec. And I mean the whole friggin map, no pixel of it not getting plagued. The low supply cost of zerg units and the infinite dropships and mana make it by far the most abusable with infinite apm. Other races are limited by supply or mana. If we're going by "perfect play" rules (lol...) then um, my perfect T comp would be able to perfectly select the unit dropped out of the overlord the instant it's dropped out. So it wouldn't matter if the zerg unit is reloaded because it'd be irradiated lol.
but vs perfect scourge micro, the vessel wouldnt be able to come in range of any defilers!!!
this thread is a big paradox x.x
|
On June 17 2008 22:04 XtaC_hiryu wrote:
TERRAN... flying buildings everywhere.. LOL
This guy is right, can you think that he has tons of buildings flying over his army, you do not know where is his army, you can not cast targeted spells etc.. But terran is more powerful anyway imo.
|
Note, although this thread is about the raw power of the races, of course what is included in that is what you can do with them when you use strategies (pretty obvious really, and most ppl have assumed that).
I personally think, that if both players are perfect, an expected rush would always fail. I don't think the games would be decided by rush every time. Only in...well BO wins (14cc vs 9pool)
I imagine that most cheese is really effective because the enemy either doesn't expect, becomes flustered and therefore careless, or has been practising loads to play a long game. A perfect player would have perfect scouting micro and scouting efficiency. I doubt cheese would dominate.
|
|
|
Ok I think I got it now (yeah right... like there's a definite answer :p):
- Zerg would always win vs. Terrans with perfect muta micro. Just imagine 2*12 mutas, each group attacking somewhere else with perfect micro... no chance at all for the Terran. Or maybe 3 groups of 8, or other combinations. Should he somehow survive it, I think Terran would win later on. Remember that irradiate will only kill 1 muta, the rest would spread perfectly
- Terrans would always win vs. Protoss with perfect M&M micro. No need for tank/vult at all...
- Not sure about PvZ
|
Belgium6777 Posts
On June 18 2008 03:25 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Ok I think I got it now (yeah right... like there's a definite answer :p):
- Zerg would always win vs. Terrans with perfect muta micro. Just imagine 2*12 mutas, each group attacking somewhere else with perfect micro... no chance at all for the Terran. Or maybe 3 groups of 8, or other combinations. Should he somehow survive it, I think Terran would win later on. Remember that irradiate will only kill 1 muta, the rest would spread perfectly
- Terrans would always win vs. Protoss with perfect M&M micro. No need for tank/vult at all...
- Not sure about PvZ
-I'm not sure.
-Indeed. Remember that deep6 thread we had a while back? Perfect micro and macro is all this strat needs from being REALLY strong.
-I think P would win. Look at how bisu was extremely dominant in his pvz. Its because of his extreme multitasking and micro. But then again z's def could be really sick at the same time. So not very sure.
|
On June 17 2008 09:50 Last Romantic wrote:
Haven't y'all read the X comic?
perfect multiple moving-shot probes would rape the shit out of scvs.
Drones have a slight range advantage, though, so a 4-drone rush would theoretically win every game.
u forget that probes accelerate faster
|
On June 18 2008 03:25 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
- Zerg would always win vs. Terrans with perfect muta micro. Just imagine 2*12 mutas, each group attacking somewhere else with perfect micro... no chance at all for the Terran. Or maybe 3 groups of 8, or other combinations. Should he somehow survive it, I think Terran would win later on. Remember that irradiate will only kill 1 muta, the rest would spread perfectly
But the marines&medics and turrets would also micro perfectly against the mutas, and always target the wounded one, run back and forward at the perfect time etc.
|
Spear and shield paradox.
|
im thinking that..
zvt ends up in first couple minutes as drones come and kick some ass
pvt ends up in the same way
zvp in this matchup the peon rusher would propably lose, since they are so similiar and the other one has more peons, at this point i need to decide what their builds will be, and i pick fast expansion for both of them, as anykind of rush would fail because the opponent has slight unit adventage.
Protoss goes for massive amount of speedzeals and goons, with couple odd templars every here and there, zerg goes hydra/ling and fast hive.
At this point the zerg cant really attack, because he will get stormed if he uses too many units, and if he uses just few units to dodge the storms the cannons and goons kill them. And if protoss attacks, he will get surrounded and storms are useless while zerg uses all of his units.
Now zerg has made additional expansion and has cracklings and defilers, not enough gas for ultras, and protoss has to push out, as he pushes out he will go near somesort of wall to reduce the surround effect, but still get caught by 3 directions, nice storms kill pretty much every zergling as they get on the melee range, but then toss gets plagued and hydradancing wins the match.(mutabuild would propably end the match even faster)
Therefore i vote for zerg, if terrans somehow could survive the peonwar they would win the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
