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Calgary25980 Posts
On April 30 2008 06:15 diggurd wrote:
yeah PsycHOTemplar. this map looks so incredible, i really cant agree with what people are saying about balance. if the pros trained on that map, some insane matches would be played, im sure of it. too bad this map will die, like all the rest. i'm hoping tasteless is doing his part, talking to his contacts, so one day pros can play on a teamliquidian map.
You're right. Damn competitive players arbitrarily boycotting foreign maps. Damn your baseless prejudice to hell!
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--Just gonna nuke my own posts--
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i still havent got a chance to try it out  . if anyone wanna game post/pm/whisper 'ggplaaaaaaaaaay'
im in op tl-west
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On April 30 2008 04:30 Chill wrote:
Played it around 6 times. These are my conclusions:
- You can't play this map without some variant of cheese, which is bad
- ZvT, 7 Pool into middle Sunken is a dominant, kill-all strategy. Terran has to 8 Rax as is, and send an SCV to block a mineral Sunken. Your Overlord sees the SCV, so you can instead Sunken his arch, and then send another Drone to Sunken his minerals. If Terran let's either of these Sunkens finish, he automatically loses. If Terran sends 2 SCVs to block Drones, he's now mining with 6 SCV and facing 6 Zerglings; Zerg can use the Zerglings to kill the SCVs and then continue Sunkening. The only viable build I see is 8 Rax into Bunker into Factory. Get Siege Tanks and Siege mode, clear the Sunken, make 4 Vultures with Mines, push them through your minerals and mine the choke and control his minerals, then use the Tank to break through the arch Sunken and play normally.
- ZvP cannot be lost. 7 Pool, send 2 Drones. The first one sits under the arch to block Probes / Zealots. The second one Sunkens the minerals. Protoss can't drill because he has no vision. His only chance is to jump his minerals and block the Sunken (temporary solution until Zerg has Zerglings out) or use that Probe to open the arch and let the Zealot through.
- TvP cannot be lost. 8 Rax your own arch, under the Disruption Web. Send another SCV to deal with Probe harass and to repair. Once the Barracks is complete, send both SCVs to his arch, under the web. Send your first Marine to this blockade. Send the second SCV to repair the generators and use the Marine to stop Zealots. Now use your Marine to stop mining from 5 of his patches. Play normally and you've won.
Basically every matchup on this map has a dominant strategy and they're all cheese. I'll be interested to see how you fix this.
I don't think that zvt build is insta-win, t doesn't have to do anything drastic. He can send one or two scvs to try and stop/kill the sunks, then retreat if he can't kill/prevent them. In the meantime, he's getting marines, the distance from main2main is longer than in most maps, giving terran more time than he usually has to block the lings (these days most terran can fend off a 4pool -.-). Sure it'll be a little harder since t likely won't have a reliable choke to defend, but the distances should negate that I think. If his minerals are sunked, t moves scvs to the other side and stops scv production. His mining is slowed, yes, but he'll mine enough from those to live, and cutting scvs gives t a little more money initially. Terran's initial scout scv can slow the lings, or atleast one ling by staying alive in z's main. Odds are zerg will try to win with lings initially, so t can just play safe even if he doesn't have a scout in z's base. Upon getting an acad, he'll be basically safe from lings, and can either try to break the arch/neutrals into the middle, or he can go around the long way, and try to catch z off guard in his main. Remember that zerg is slowed by his initial rush/use of sunks, which gives terran time. Terran can pump off 2rax with half his economy cut off just fine, but I'd reccomend 1rax acad just to get medics/bats sooner, though I think either would work.
For zvp, a 2gate should work fine I think. If you build your base right, you can make it really easy to defend your probes (after they're all on one side, after the sunk is made) by tightening the area, allowing a few zlots with some probe support defend any reasonable amount of lings, and you can send other zlots around the long way to try and catch z off guard. If nothing else, you can pressure z to run back to main, giving p an easier time expoing/breaking the sunk and lings.
In general, for games vs z, I'm not sure about the timing, but I think you could just send your 5th worker or something if you were afraid of the sunk, to kill the creep colony which makes creep near you. I don't think it would be too detrimental to your economy, plenty of successful rushes have been made using one of your early workers, boxer's 06 pp with his proxy rax on rh3 was done with one of his original 4 workers; and when faced with one worker's mining less, and 4 fewer minerals, I think I'd go for one fewer worker oO. This obviously depends a lot on timing however.
Your tvp strategy sounds the least feasible idea IMO. You realize there is a backdoor blocked by 600 or 700 (don't remember which) hp neutrals in your mains? zlots will kill this very fast, so will goons, and either can go around to mess with terran in their main, and apparently their marine corp is blocking your arch choke, ie isn't in t's main. Terran can fend this off of course with vultures/mines/tank, but good micro can do damage to a non-expectant terran. I don't know if marines (especially without range) can hit probes over that ridge, and you need arial vision to see anyway. Lifting a rax fixes this, but then you can't make marines if your rax is lifted, and presumably protoss will try to kill them. Making an ebay can fix this, but that removes an scv which should be repairing the neutrals, and gives protoss more time to mine with all of their minerals. You mention zlots, but I fail to see why protoss can't make goons. Terran can't instantly stop protoss' economy even if he can shoot protoss' minerals and has arial vision with a few marines, p can for one just move near death probes in time. Once protoss has goons, he can snipe marines and/or scvs or just shoot the neutrals, and then do some sniping. The distance from buildable land to buildable land is far enough, along with the normally long distances that a tank isn't going to get there in time, and making a proxy fact only makes t that much more vulnerable to p going around the long way.
"Basically every matchup on this map has a dominant strategy and they're all cheese. I'll be interested to see how you fix this" I love that line in particular, because that can be, and is, said of every new proleague season, and we get to see how the PLAYERS fix it. imo, even on this map, there are no 100% dominating strategies, especially if it's expected, all of them can be worked around because of the map's many unique features. If enough testing was made on the map to suggest actual balance problems, an easy fix it sounds like, would be just moving a mineral to the safe side from the vulnerable side, but I don't think that's even necessary. The map accentuates good intuition/scouting (or unreal macro and sick timing senses amirite).
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On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night.
Want some ad hominem action? Seriously, fuck off. You have been around long enough that should have seen the bias against "foreign" and "amateur" maps long before I made Faoi. I recall vividly mappers trying to get people to play their maps, and in response to "why" they'd point out positional and/or racial imbalances in "pro" maps, and point out the elleged lack of, in their maps, and non-mappers began to flame foreign mappers for saying their maps were so much better, and that they were saying pro maps sucked, etc. I have never seen a single mapper suggest that, yet the prejudice remains. Why would you associate any of that with me? All I ever did was spam "PLAY ON FAOI" in an event where people were expected to spam. I fail to see at all why people hate me/faoi for spamming, when 39 other voices were drowning me out. That's even if I managed to get into the channel of 40 -.- I have only specifically mentioned Faoi in tl threads in threads about maps. It's hardly a non sequator to talk about a map in a thread about maps, and I was joking in all those threads (wcg map thread for example, rofl). Then I get flamed for saying I think TSL has a boring mappool, it has three maps, which are all played a lot, and offer nothing special, why do I get flamed for saying that, even when others next to me agree or say the same thing? And now it's my fault that people won't play YOUR map? My map is in ICCup and no one plays it. I even made a new version which is 100% better, but yello-ant won't update it in the iccup mappool because "everyone already loves faoi" rofl.
Sorry for double post, but I figured Chill or Hot_Bid would nuke this post, and my previous post had some thread-relevant material ._.
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if that's your logic, you should had better PM'd him.
On topic, i don't agree fully on your analysis. I can't write all that i disagree (since it actually requires me to play the map to have any value what is said) but in balance analysis, you just can't use words as "probably", "odds" or "catching off guard".
edit:
btw, you haven't answered my question about the cannons/ramp yet. Can cannons shoot up ramp the double generators in main (if lings are attacking it, for example) or does they need vision from other source?
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Wouldn't it be nice to just move the minerals near the creep to the gas side? I'm just saying...
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That would destroy the concept entirely. That's like saying, wouldn't it be nice if you removed the min walls on monty hall, or took out that silly tight choke in bluestorm/peaks/blitzx.
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On May 01 2008 11:41 Nightmarjoo wrote:
That would destroy the concept entirely. That's like saying, wouldn't it be nice if you removed the min walls on monty hall, or took out that silly tight choke in bluestorm/peaks/blitzx.
Oh...ok...I was just wondering if it would fix some of the imbalances...
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Calgary25980 Posts
On April 30 2008 09:11 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night. Want some ad hominem action? Seriously, fuck off. You have been around long enough that should have seen the bias against "foreign" and "amateur" maps long before I made Faoi. I recall vividly mappers trying to get people to play their maps, and in response to "why" they'd point out positional and/or racial imbalances in "pro" maps, and point out the elleged lack of, in their maps, and non-mappers began to flame foreign mappers for saying their maps were so much better, and that they were saying pro maps sucked, etc. I have never seen a single mapper suggest that, yet the prejudice remains. Why would you associate any of that with me? All I ever did was spam "PLAY ON FAOI" in an event where people were expected to spam. I fail to see at all why people hate me/faoi for spamming, when 39 other voices were drowning me out. That's even if I managed to get into the channel of 40 -.- I have only specifically mentioned Faoi in tl threads in threads about maps. It's hardly a non sequator to talk about a map in a thread about maps, and I was joking in all those threads (wcg map thread for example, rofl). Then I get flamed for saying I think TSL has a boring mappool, it has three maps, which are all played a lot, and offer nothing special, why do I get flamed for saying that, even when others next to me agree or say the same thing? And now it's my fault that people won't play YOUR map? My map is in ICCup and no one plays it. I even made a new version which is 100% better, but yello-ant won't update it in the iccup mappool because "everyone already loves faoi" rofl. Sorry for double post, but I figured Chill or Hot_Bid would nuke this post, and my previous post had some thread-relevant material ._.
Look, you've obviously gone up against someone who doesn't agree with your position before. And it's going to keep happening in your life in the future.
In my eyes, as a map maker, you basically have a couple choices:
- You can accept that your map isn't going to to change the game, and be fine with it going vastly unplayed.
- You can complain that your map doesn't get played.
- You can promote the shit out of it and try to get exposure.
Now doing any of these doesn't mean people aren't going to call a spade a spade. So when I see you spamming the shit out of this forum, or our stream, do you expect me to go "tee hee, there's that silly Nightmarjoo again. Everyone go play his map."? I think your map is bland, imbalanced, and I find you promoting it extremely annoying. So that's what my comments are going to reflect. If I liked your map I would help you promote it but putting it on the show, but I don't, so I didnt.
That doesn't mean you should stop promoting it. Maybe it's difficult to tell how far you can push it, considering I have told you I find you annoying. Being annoying isn't doing anything wrong. Part of your job is to be as annoying promoting your map as possible to give it exposure. Part of my job as a moderator is to tell you whe you've crossed the line (with a warning/ban). That doesn't mean I can't still say personally I find your promotion annoying and I wish you would stop.
So don't try to play the martyr. I've found you personally annoying for months and you haven't even received a warning. "Wah Hot_Bid / Chill are going to nuke me". Well that's because you've done nothing for our community but spam your map for months. But that's the game map makers have to play if you truly believe in your map. Ask me the name of a foreign map made in the last two years and I can only answer Faoi.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Also, don't play dumb. Half your comments are about Faoi. "All I ever did was comment on the boring map pool". Bullshit.
TSL won't be better than MSL or OSL because TSL has a boring map pool
On an unrelated note: I posted Faoi IV in its thread, tell me what you guys think of it ._.
You have about 20 posts like this that I don't feel like copy/pasting. How stupid do you think we are?
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On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote:I won't even try to argue about balance, since you're probably right, but I could play 15 games trying to overcome odds and not get bored. What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night. I feel like my map is fun, but shown to be imbalanced in testing thus far (but in my heart, I'd play 20 games before I gave up trying to disprove it). I don't really know how to fix it. Suggestions I've been given seem like they would just change who the imbalance favours, and nothing else. So I don't know, if I have an epiphany I'll rework this map, but I might just have to declare it junk/silly if I can't. I won't make any new maps though (except if Chill wants me to make a map from his drawings, since it'll auto be played because it's Chill's), because frankly making a hype video, getting someone to make a commentary, and going thru all this shit just to get people to even try to maybe consider your map (and still have a million preconceptions before the game starts) is too much work. I've made enough terrible maps anyway. + Show Spoiler +Call all this whining if you want, call me unable to take criticism, call it whatever you want; I'm not ready to sacrifice more time on a lost cause. I'd rather just play SC from now on, so I can be one of the critical people 
='[
I knew it was going to get to this point. I remember someone a while back had posted their map and someone just said "Who gives a shit about your map, nobody will play it anyways!" and I thought about it... it's true. The masses are afraid of anything new... They haven't even started playing the new Proleague/MSL maps, they're all too attached to Longinus/Python...
BWMN just needs a rework and it will be more popular. The site itself is ugly and plain... But, seriously, foreign maps are waaaaay prettier/have more work put into them than the dingy, plain Korean pro maps that are being shelled out nowadays. BWMN just needs a better image... or something.
._.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote:I won't even try to argue about balance, since you're probably right, but I could play 15 games trying to overcome odds and not get bored. What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night. I feel like my map is fun, but shown to be imbalanced in testing thus far (but in my heart, I'd play 20 games before I gave up trying to disprove it). I don't really know how to fix it. Suggestions I've been given seem like they would just change who the imbalance favours, and nothing else. So I don't know, if I have an epiphany I'll rework this map, but I might just have to declare it junk/silly if I can't. I won't make any new maps though (except if Chill wants me to make a map from his drawings, since it'll auto be played because it's Chill's), because frankly making a hype video, getting someone to make a commentary, and going thru all this shit just to get people to even try to maybe consider your map (and still have a million preconceptions before the game starts) is too much work. I've made enough terrible maps anyway. + Show Spoiler +Call all this whining if you want, call me unable to take criticism, call it whatever you want; I'm not ready to sacrifice more time on a lost cause. I'd rather just play SC from now on, so I can be one of the critical people
Alright, I can feel a little empathy for you, but not much. I made a well-thought-out post about why your map was imbalanced. You said it needed testing and picked apart my post. So I took a couple hours to play on it. And I did what I said I would do in my post, and it worked every time, and it was imbalanced.
In the end, my assumption was that you are making a competitive map. If you are making a "fun" map that you know is imbalanced and you just want people to fool around on, that's fine. I assume you aren't though given your comments. If you want a competitive map, maybe you should work together and listen to what the competitive players are telling you. Every game on your map starts with cheese. If that's something you want, fine, but don't give us shit for criticizing it rather than praising it.
In order to get a map played, this is what I would do. It's all about marketing. While your map is wildly imbalanced, post asking for suggestions to improve it. This will bring out the people who are looking to help people. I know that I personally really like analysing a map and figuring out where it's weaknesses are. And there's tons of people on this forum who love doing that shit too; however, when you make a post like this where the map is more or less "final", you're not going to draw them out. Then, when the map is somewhat balanced, post a hype post like you did to get people interested.
Your problem is you did things out of order. You think your map is almost done so you posted the hype when it's still totally imbalanced. So when people offer criticism, you've already moved past the "looking for help" stage, you didn't really take it as criticism and got really defensive. WHICH IS FINE. But don't get all sad when we're trying to help you improve your map. Just say you don't want suggestions and the map is final, then you save everyone a lot of time.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On May 02 2008 01:05 Scorpion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote:I won't even try to argue about balance, since you're probably right, but I could play 15 games trying to overcome odds and not get bored. What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night. I feel like my map is fun, but shown to be imbalanced in testing thus far (but in my heart, I'd play 20 games before I gave up trying to disprove it). I don't really know how to fix it. Suggestions I've been given seem like they would just change who the imbalance favours, and nothing else. So I don't know, if I have an epiphany I'll rework this map, but I might just have to declare it junk/silly if I can't. I won't make any new maps though (except if Chill wants me to make a map from his drawings, since it'll auto be played because it's Chill's), because frankly making a hype video, getting someone to make a commentary, and going thru all this shit just to get people to even try to maybe consider your map (and still have a million preconceptions before the game starts) is too much work. I've made enough terrible maps anyway. + Show Spoiler +Call all this whining if you want, call me unable to take criticism, call it whatever you want; I'm not ready to sacrifice more time on a lost cause. I'd rather just play SC from now on, so I can be one of the critical people ='[ I knew it was going to get to this point. I remember someone a while back had posted their map and someone just said "Who gives a shit about your map, nobody will play it anyways!" and I thought about it... it's true. The masses are afraid of anything new... They haven't even started playing the new Proleague/MSL maps, they're all too attached to Longinus/Python... BWMN just needs a rework and it will be more popular. The site itself is ugly and plain... But, seriously, foreign maps are waaaaay prettier/have more work put into them than the dingy, plain Korean pro maps that are being shelled out nowadays. BWMN just needs a better image... or something. ._.
It comes down to do you want to play CrAzY imabalnced maps, or slightly boring balanced maps? I think the majority of people can enjoy the latter, while only a few can enjoy the former.
And this is where the disconnect is coming. Weak players keep saying that Koreans keep putting out the same old shit, and that's somewhat true. But it's because balanced maps need to follow a few key principles, and there's only a few ways to reshape those principles.
So when you make a map without a natural or encourage a 5 Pool, it should be pretty evident when the competitive community isn't lining up to play it. Show me a map on BWMN that rivals a Korean map. I don't browse the site, but my assumption is going to be that their maps are highly gimmicky or highly polished without addressing fundamental balanced issues. A terrible assumption and I'd love you to prove me wrong.
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On May 02 2008 01:19 Chill wrote:
It comes down to do you want to play CrAzY imabalnced maps, or slightly boring balanced maps? I think the majority of people can enjoy the latter, while only a few can enjoy the former.
Going to have to agree with this. While I love the concept of this map, and while I'm always excited about new maps they bring into the professional leagues, when I'm actually playing, I prefer to play balanced maps, because it's aggravating to lose due to serious balance issues. That's why when I play zerg I avoid Longinus and Katrina, for example, unless I'm seriously bored enough and nonchalant enough to be willing to handle the annoyance of fighting an uphill battle. And as Chill implied, I think that's a large, large part of why Python and a few other select maps are super over-played, they're rather balanced, and thus people feel comfortable playing on those maps because that's the best barometer of "skill."
Why else would people rage and froth over Katrina and Loki (and formerly Monty Hall), all maps with very interesting concepts, but both maps also with tremendous balance issues?
The point is, as a foreign map maker you're competing against these, and because you don't have professional gamers testing your maps, you're going to have to simply go by criticism and keep changing it until your map is balanced and interesting. Enough so that people are willing to give it a try, because it's so much more comfortable to be able to watch a pro-gamer play a map, then copy how they play the new map and absorb it into your knowledge bank.
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Belgium9947 Posts
On April 30 2008 09:11 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night. Want some ad hominem action? Seriously, fuck off. You have been around long enough that should have seen the bias against "foreign" and "amateur" maps long before I made Faoi. I recall vividly mappers trying to get people to play their maps, and in response to "why" they'd point out positional and/or racial imbalances in "pro" maps, and point out the elleged lack of, in their maps, and non-mappers began to flame foreign mappers for saying their maps were so much better, and that they were saying pro maps sucked, etc. I have never seen a single mapper suggest that, yet the prejudice remains. Why would you associate any of that with me? All I ever did was spam "PLAY ON FAOI" in an event where people were expected to spam. I fail to see at all why people hate me/faoi for spamming, when 39 other voices were drowning me out. That's even if I managed to get into the channel of 40 -.- I have only specifically mentioned Faoi in tl threads in threads about maps. It's hardly a non sequator to talk about a map in a thread about maps, and I was joking in all those threads (wcg map thread for example, rofl). Then I get flamed for saying I think TSL has a boring mappool, it has three maps, which are all played a lot, and offer nothing special, why do I get flamed for saying that, even when others next to me agree or say the same thing? And now it's my fault that people won't play YOUR map? My map is in ICCup and no one plays it. I even made a new version which is 100% better, but yello-ant won't update it in the iccup mappool because "everyone already loves faoi" rofl. Sorry for double post, but I figured Chill or Hot_Bid would nuke this post, and my previous post had some thread-relevant material ._.
Even Chill plays a game on Faoi once in a while.
Be happy.
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Calgary25980 Posts
How long have you been waiting to post that?
HOW LONG?
Was a fun game though
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On May 02 2008 01:19 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2008 01:05 Scorpion wrote:On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote:I won't even try to argue about balance, since you're probably right, but I could play 15 games trying to overcome odds and not get bored. What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night. I feel like my map is fun, but shown to be imbalanced in testing thus far (but in my heart, I'd play 20 games before I gave up trying to disprove it). I don't really know how to fix it. Suggestions I've been given seem like they would just change who the imbalance favours, and nothing else. So I don't know, if I have an epiphany I'll rework this map, but I might just have to declare it junk/silly if I can't. I won't make any new maps though (except if Chill wants me to make a map from his drawings, since it'll auto be played because it's Chill's), because frankly making a hype video, getting someone to make a commentary, and going thru all this shit just to get people to even try to maybe consider your map (and still have a million preconceptions before the game starts) is too much work. I've made enough terrible maps anyway. + Show Spoiler +Call all this whining if you want, call me unable to take criticism, call it whatever you want; I'm not ready to sacrifice more time on a lost cause. I'd rather just play SC from now on, so I can be one of the critical people ='[ I knew it was going to get to this point. I remember someone a while back had posted their map and someone just said "Who gives a shit about your map, nobody will play it anyways!" and I thought about it... it's true. The masses are afraid of anything new... They haven't even started playing the new Proleague/MSL maps, they're all too attached to Longinus/Python... BWMN just needs a rework and it will be more popular. The site itself is ugly and plain... But, seriously, foreign maps are waaaaay prettier/have more work put into them than the dingy, plain Korean pro maps that are being shelled out nowadays. BWMN just needs a better image... or something. ._. It comes down to do you want to play CrAzY imabalnced maps, or slightly boring balanced maps? I think the majority of people can enjoy the latter, while only a few can enjoy the former. And this is where the disconnect is coming. Weak players keep saying that Koreans keep putting out the same old shit, and that's somewhat true. But it's because balanced maps need to follow a few key principles, and there's only a few ways to reshape those principles. So when you make a map without a natural or encourage a 5 Pool, it should be pretty evident when the competitive community isn't lining up to play it. Show me a map on BWMN that rivals a Korean map. I don't browse the site, but my assumption is going to be that their maps are highly gimmicky or highly polished without addressing fundamental balanced issues. A terrible assumption and I'd love you to prove me wrong.
Nobody browses that site, not even me. It's ugly XD
I forgot to address that in my post though, foreign maps tend to be more imbalanced; I didn't mention that in my other post, I just said foreigner maps are more pretty/more work is put into them xD
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Calgary25980 Posts
They're prettier, but there isn't more work put into them.
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--Just gonna nuke my own posts--
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EPT
