Tired of the same old maps? Want a change from the macro oriented style of today's most popular maps? Just like trying new things? Waiting to Panic.scx will fulfill all that and your wildest dreams.
Aggression. Skill. Cunning. Daring. All are rewarded on Waiting to Panic.scx
Need more? Watch this video to get yourself in the mood.
Confused on just how the hell this map works? Watch this commentary by SuperiorWolf to see this map in action before you try.
Watch the replays of ZvT ZvP on the map page (not against StarParty or MuShu, since those are old versions) if you're really worried about sunken rush, or just play the map. It's really been fairly even stats in the difference match-ups in the games I've played on 1.2.
SuperiorWolf wrote:Hittegods, how did you watch a 20 minute commentary in 5 minutes, hmm? Sunken rush doesn't work as long as the opponent plays standard for the map, which is BBS or any sort of fast rax (rarely do they depot first) and also for protoss you can get a forge and cannon rush them as well as having 1 gateway to pressure. With such a fast sunk rush (5 pool) or even 6 pool they have no eco to defend themselves so it's basically an automatic GG for whoever sunk rushes blindly. Also, the map is not imba, it just forces you to play differently than normal. You have to think outside of the box and play innovatively. If you just tested the map would you find how the map is not imba.
Thanks for those who complimented and are planning on playing. I hope you upload replays, as they will be much appreciated.
This map looks nuts. Can't a zerg go fast drops and build sunkens behind the main of opponent?
FYI you can actually just walk into the centre (see commentary if this map is confusing you, the game shown displays pretty much the whole map). So as much as Zerg could do that, Terran have a lot of options to harass with marines in Zerg do, as well as do Protoss.
Looks really interesting. I would love to see insane maps like this in proleague, those guys seem to know hot to adapt to things. :D
Sidenote: Why is it modern promaps are macro-focused? Is that more popular with Korean audiences? I ask because for me low-economy games with lots of action are the best games to watch, thats why old school games are so entertaining.
i like that there is even a promotional video, but i was disappointed that it didnt highlight more of the map itself other than tanking the main from the middle.
I thought that this map was about losing minerals as you walked around. Aka the zeals walked around -> you lose minerals, basically meaning that as soon as you leave your base, your min count will be reduced to zero. Basically, if you're going to attack, you might as well make it an all in because your macro's shot anyways.
Thanks I thought the bagpipes were a nice change from Linkin Park and Nightwish.
if zerg survives a rush and gaing map conrol they can just sunk behind mins easy win. its not like it matters, not a serious map anyways, like i said it is fun and entertaining
The thing is, I've played a lot of games with Z in it, and you're just wrong. Z can go 6pool or 9pool if he wants, and be invulnerable to whatever rush you're talking about, and even sunk rush without too much difficulty, but that only halves the enemy's economy. Which is essentially like fast expoing on a normal map (since on this map trying to fast expo is extremely difficult given the vulnerable natural).
Just play some games and you'll see, there's more to this map than all-ins.
The map is actually pretty old (some months), aux. There's even thread about the old version, but on that one Zerg sunk rush was too powerful, and had to be nerfed (result is this version). This version has been ready for awhile, but I wanted to wait for Wolf to have time to make a commentary, since he offered. Then I made that promotional video, and right now I figure if all this isn't enough to get some people to try my map, it's going to be actually impossible for anyone like me to get their map played, and so there's no point in a lot of people mapping.
I remembered trying to hop over the wall behind the mineral line for a really fast sunken behind the minerals, only for it to get stuck in the doodads (though every once in a while it'd get lucky and hop all the way over, but I couldn't get the drone to do it every time practically ).
Cool stuff, glad to see everyone likes it this time around.
PvZ dilema : Ok zerg opens with 9 pool speed or overpool speed. Protoss cannot defend the mid, since the buildings can be destroyed, cannot rush, cannot cannon rush. Protoss becomes sunkened -> 5 minerals only to mine from.
Protoss must go forge and cannons since there in no choke and will have to make cannon near nexus. Protoss cannot FE since there is 2 ways to go to main.
-> weak eco, passive toss; zerg now can take expo and go 2-3 hatch hydras to win easily
Depends on how you opened. If I opened two gate, and saw that, that's basically the Zerg saying he's hinging everything on his lings. Take Zealots + half your probes, and counter.
If I opened Gate forge, I'd try to turtle and expo, maybe even pressure with cannons in min line for defence, and offensive cannon + zealot on offence.
If I opened tech (as I probably would NOT do vs Zerg), I'd hope to get my DT out fast enough that I can still find holes in Z defence.
Also, if you see the colony in time, and it's not accompanied by lings, you can just send out probes to kill it before it finishes morphing.
Only many games will tell if it's too hard, but so far I've played equal numbers of games with zerg winning over toss, and toss winning over zerg.
Haha, this is the one that you sent me as your other submission to the competition if the first one didn't work out, right?
I just remember playing the comp to see the layout of the map and spending like 30 minutes trying to kill a dead zerg comp because it had build a spawning pool in the center of the map for some reason.
This map is kind of crazy, but from my experience on the map (templar will disagree with me), you can play the map pretty normally, if cautiously. I think players who try weird rushes will often find they sacrifice too much in doing it. Many types of "instant win rushes" you think will work, can't work, because of the two entrance aspect of the mains, and the fact that you can hide expos relatively easy.
This looks very very fun. I hope ICCUP picks it up for the next season, or that I come across it at least once. I am tired of Python and other standard maps like that. It kind of gets stale, no?
I was liking this until I watched the lastshadow commentary now not only do i now have an irrational hatred for all starcraft maps, i also hate nautical and road maps
On April 28 2008 11:56 chamois wrote: I was liking this until I watched the lastshadow commentary now not only do i now have an irrational hatred for all starcraft maps, i also hate nautical and road maps
On April 28 2008 11:56 chamois wrote: I was liking this until I watched the lastshadow commentary now not only do i now have an irrational hatred for all starcraft maps, i also hate nautical and road maps
sorry if it was mentioned before, but can cannons shoot lings if they are attacking the double generator ramp in main? Or the don't have vision? If they don't, i can't see how a P can hold off a good Z. Say, 9 pool, sunk rush (P has half economy - could also sunk the choke to the creep in the middle) and then Z can open another entrance to P's main. Hydras or lurkers on min line will ensue. If they do attack, P does get half economy but can somewhat get a FE. Susceptible to a lurk on cliff or muta harass. Maybe a cannon should be able to fit there, specially since the gas is the most exposed. A safer 9 pool approach: sunk the dweb choke and put lings there so that zealots can't attack that and afterwards sunk the min line.
I'm not sure of all this since i haven't played on the map (no time really) but when Z has even more options against P early game, it makes me weep .
Questions: -With the doodads behind the minerals, you can jump a Drone over? -Assuming the base is closed (the map's original form), when I move a unit from my base to his, which path does it take? -Assuming the map is compeletely opened, when I move a unit from my base to his, which path does it take?
Issues: -I know you really want to believe a Sunken rush isn't imbalanced, but I can't see any race living it. If I 9 Pool and send two Drones, you're fucked. My first Drone builds a Sunken behind your minerals, and the second sits under the arch by the Disruption Web. Terran can't get through until Marines are out (due to the Disruption Web blocking melee attacks), and Protoss can't get out until they kill a generator. You can't simply "let it go" because you need to run around the entire map and kill another 800 HP generator to get to me. Plus you're mining off 4 patches, so I don't even need to expand. -This is going to be an issue all game. My Mutas are out, and you return home to defend, putting up Turrets. Oh whoops, I made 2 Sunkens back there while harassing and now you're fucked.
Why does the creep need to extend right to the minerals? Can't you have that creep go everywhere but make the area behind the minerals unbuildable? Why does there have to be creep back there in the first place?
I know you say it's not an issue, but I can't get over it. It seems to be a huge issue to me. When you say "there are two entrances" you neglect to mention you need to run more than an entire map width and kill a building to take the alternate route.
Your answers to LastWish's questions are not satisfactory. Probes CLEARLY don't get to the Colony before it morphs. Taking half your Probes and countering obviously doesn't work because the rush distance is insane.
I have an idea let's say some channel on b-net (and porbably time) + people who want to play some games on it gather around, because eigher way I don't think a random pub-person is going to play this map.
If you can organise it, go for excellence, but I think the best shot is just to hang around in TL-West and ask people if they wanna play it. Or PM each other in this thread (those who are saying they like it, and want to play).
I'm done my exams, so I'll be able to go on tonight (-5GMT) and play some games (although I really would like to see people other than myself playing lol).
Questions:-With the doodads behind the minerals, you can jump a Drone over?
Nope.
That's false, I just tried it several times with the newest version of the map, and it's very easy to jump a drone over the doodad. In the earlier version of the map drone hopping was very hard to execute practically because there were a lot of minerals set up hugging the doodads, but in this version you can get a drone to jump over with almost no effort.
wouldn't terran be able to use the barrack landing trick to squeeze a marine into the center (over the mineral wall), and later on, a tank, before zerg is able to get drops up? zerg can't squeeze zerglings into the center can they?..
edit: nm, seems like u can't squeeze shit through.
On April 29 2008 08:33 Polyphasic wrote: wouldn't terran be able to use the barrack landing trick to squeeze a marine into the center (over the mineral wall), and later on, a tank, before zerg is able to get drops up? zerg can't squeeze zerglings into the center can they?..
At least try playing the map before you comment about things like that. You can walk into the middle, there's an opening where the disruption web is. :/
edit: Here's an example of a decent BO for zerg that utilizes drone hopping to build a sunken at the enemies min line really early without sacrificing econ.. http://www.panschk.de/mappage/replays/dronehop.rep
Polyphasic... Why do you, and 50 other people, think that the centre is blocked off? It seriously makes no sense. Just look at the damn map picture or something.
That's false, I just tried it several times with the newest version of the map, and it's very easy to jump a drone over the doodad. In the earlier version of the map drone hopping was very hard to execute practically because there were a lot of minerals set up hugging the doodads, but in this version you can get a drone to jump over with almost no effort.
I only checked in the old version, and it seems you're right :O With a little practice, it can be done consistently, but I think that this is really a good thing for Toss and Terran, because it means they can't be blocked off from entering the centre, and they can send a peon to harass any drone trying to make a creep colony, without losing as much trying to preemptively predict it without any real reason to believe it will happen. It opens up some options (although if you try to hope over the wrong patch, you can still get stuck). I don't understand why, since in order to get pathing to work properly I have to make those rocks block the minerals entirely. I thought it would be guaranteed that they couldn't do that. I could maybe fix it if need be, but right now I'm willing to let it be a part of the map until I get some replays in.
Played it around 6 times. These are my conclusions:
- You can't play this map without some variant of cheese, which is bad - ZvT, 7 Pool into middle Sunken is a dominant, kill-all strategy. Terran has to 8 Rax as is, and send an SCV to block a mineral Sunken. Your Overlord sees the SCV, so you can instead Sunken his arch, and then send another Drone to Sunken his minerals. If Terran let's either of these Sunkens finish, he automatically loses. If Terran sends 2 SCVs to block Drones, he's now mining with 6 SCV and facing 6 Zerglings; Zerg can use the Zerglings to kill the SCVs and then continue Sunkening. The only viable build I see is 8 Rax into Bunker into Factory. Get Siege Tanks and Siege mode, clear the Sunken, make 4 Vultures with Mines, push them through your minerals and mine the choke and control his minerals, then use the Tank to break through the arch Sunken and play normally. - ZvP cannot be lost. 7 Pool, send 2 Drones. The first one sits under the arch to block Probes / Zealots. The second one Sunkens the minerals. Protoss can't drill because he has no vision. His only chance is to jump his minerals and block the Sunken (temporary solution until Zerg has Zerglings out) or use that Probe to open the arch and let the Zealot through. - TvP cannot be lost. 8 Rax your own arch, under the Disruption Web. Send another SCV to deal with Probe harass and to repair. Once the Barracks is complete, send both SCVs to his arch, under the web. Send your first Marine to this blockade. Send the second SCV to repair the generators and use the Marine to stop Zealots. Now use your Marine to stop mining from 5 of his patches. Play normally and you've won.
Basically every matchup on this map has a dominant strategy and they're all cheese. I'll be interested to see how you fix this.
actually i think P would dominate Z with FE if Z does such a rush. 15 mineral patches and 2 gas are enough to kill you before you recover from your self-kill econ. extra cannon for eventual ling run-around would barely slow P down. but i think overpool --> kill building --> double expand (nat + corner) --> sunken in middle --> deny scouting = dead FE protoss.
yeah PsycHOTemplar. this map looks so incredible, i really cant agree with what people are saying about balance. if the pros trained on that map, some insane matches would be played, im sure of it. too bad this map will die, like all the rest. i'm hoping tasteless is doing his part, talking to his contacts, so one day pros can play on a teamliquidian map.
On April 30 2008 06:15 diggurd wrote: yeah PsycHOTemplar. this map looks so incredible, i really cant agree with what people are saying about balance. if the pros trained on that map, some insane matches would be played, im sure of it. too bad this map will die, like all the rest. i'm hoping tasteless is doing his part, talking to his contacts, so one day pros can play on a teamliquidian map.
You're right. Damn competitive players arbitrarily boycotting foreign maps. Damn your baseless prejudice to hell!
On April 30 2008 04:30 Chill wrote: Played it around 6 times. These are my conclusions:
- You can't play this map without some variant of cheese, which is bad - ZvT, 7 Pool into middle Sunken is a dominant, kill-all strategy. Terran has to 8 Rax as is, and send an SCV to block a mineral Sunken. Your Overlord sees the SCV, so you can instead Sunken his arch, and then send another Drone to Sunken his minerals. If Terran let's either of these Sunkens finish, he automatically loses. If Terran sends 2 SCVs to block Drones, he's now mining with 6 SCV and facing 6 Zerglings; Zerg can use the Zerglings to kill the SCVs and then continue Sunkening. The only viable build I see is 8 Rax into Bunker into Factory. Get Siege Tanks and Siege mode, clear the Sunken, make 4 Vultures with Mines, push them through your minerals and mine the choke and control his minerals, then use the Tank to break through the arch Sunken and play normally. - ZvP cannot be lost. 7 Pool, send 2 Drones. The first one sits under the arch to block Probes / Zealots. The second one Sunkens the minerals. Protoss can't drill because he has no vision. His only chance is to jump his minerals and block the Sunken (temporary solution until Zerg has Zerglings out) or use that Probe to open the arch and let the Zealot through. - TvP cannot be lost. 8 Rax your own arch, under the Disruption Web. Send another SCV to deal with Probe harass and to repair. Once the Barracks is complete, send both SCVs to his arch, under the web. Send your first Marine to this blockade. Send the second SCV to repair the generators and use the Marine to stop Zealots. Now use your Marine to stop mining from 5 of his patches. Play normally and you've won.
Basically every matchup on this map has a dominant strategy and they're all cheese. I'll be interested to see how you fix this.
I don't think that zvt build is insta-win, t doesn't have to do anything drastic. He can send one or two scvs to try and stop/kill the sunks, then retreat if he can't kill/prevent them. In the meantime, he's getting marines, the distance from main2main is longer than in most maps, giving terran more time than he usually has to block the lings (these days most terran can fend off a 4pool -.-). Sure it'll be a little harder since t likely won't have a reliable choke to defend, but the distances should negate that I think. If his minerals are sunked, t moves scvs to the other side and stops scv production. His mining is slowed, yes, but he'll mine enough from those to live, and cutting scvs gives t a little more money initially. Terran's initial scout scv can slow the lings, or atleast one ling by staying alive in z's main. Odds are zerg will try to win with lings initially, so t can just play safe even if he doesn't have a scout in z's base. Upon getting an acad, he'll be basically safe from lings, and can either try to break the arch/neutrals into the middle, or he can go around the long way, and try to catch z off guard in his main. Remember that zerg is slowed by his initial rush/use of sunks, which gives terran time. Terran can pump off 2rax with half his economy cut off just fine, but I'd reccomend 1rax acad just to get medics/bats sooner, though I think either would work.
For zvp, a 2gate should work fine I think. If you build your base right, you can make it really easy to defend your probes (after they're all on one side, after the sunk is made) by tightening the area, allowing a few zlots with some probe support defend any reasonable amount of lings, and you can send other zlots around the long way to try and catch z off guard. If nothing else, you can pressure z to run back to main, giving p an easier time expoing/breaking the sunk and lings.
In general, for games vs z, I'm not sure about the timing, but I think you could just send your 5th worker or something if you were afraid of the sunk, to kill the creep colony which makes creep near you. I don't think it would be too detrimental to your economy, plenty of successful rushes have been made using one of your early workers, boxer's 06 pp with his proxy rax on rh3 was done with one of his original 4 workers; and when faced with one worker's mining less, and 4 fewer minerals, I think I'd go for one fewer worker oO. This obviously depends a lot on timing however.
Your tvp strategy sounds the least feasible idea IMO. You realize there is a backdoor blocked by 600 or 700 (don't remember which) hp neutrals in your mains? zlots will kill this very fast, so will goons, and either can go around to mess with terran in their main, and apparently their marine corp is blocking your arch choke, ie isn't in t's main. Terran can fend this off of course with vultures/mines/tank, but good micro can do damage to a non-expectant terran. I don't know if marines (especially without range) can hit probes over that ridge, and you need arial vision to see anyway. Lifting a rax fixes this, but then you can't make marines if your rax is lifted, and presumably protoss will try to kill them. Making an ebay can fix this, but that removes an scv which should be repairing the neutrals, and gives protoss more time to mine with all of their minerals. You mention zlots, but I fail to see why protoss can't make goons. Terran can't instantly stop protoss' economy even if he can shoot protoss' minerals and has arial vision with a few marines, p can for one just move near death probes in time. Once protoss has goons, he can snipe marines and/or scvs or just shoot the neutrals, and then do some sniping. The distance from buildable land to buildable land is far enough, along with the normally long distances that a tank isn't going to get there in time, and making a proxy fact only makes t that much more vulnerable to p going around the long way.
"Basically every matchup on this map has a dominant strategy and they're all cheese. I'll be interested to see how you fix this" I love that line in particular, because that can be, and is, said of every new proleague season, and we get to see how the PLAYERS fix it. imo, even on this map, there are no 100% dominating strategies, especially if it's expected, all of them can be worked around because of the map's many unique features. If enough testing was made on the map to suggest actual balance problems, an easy fix it sounds like, would be just moving a mineral to the safe side from the vulnerable side, but I don't think that's even necessary. The map accentuates good intuition/scouting (or unreal macro and sick timing senses amirite).
On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night.
Want some ad hominem action? Seriously, fuck off. You have been around long enough that should have seen the bias against "foreign" and "amateur" maps long before I made Faoi. I recall vividly mappers trying to get people to play their maps, and in response to "why" they'd point out positional and/or racial imbalances in "pro" maps, and point out the elleged lack of, in their maps, and non-mappers began to flame foreign mappers for saying their maps were so much better, and that they were saying pro maps sucked, etc. I have never seen a single mapper suggest that, yet the prejudice remains. Why would you associate any of that with me? All I ever did was spam "PLAY ON FAOI" in an event where people were expected to spam. I fail to see at all why people hate me/faoi for spamming, when 39 other voices were drowning me out. That's even if I managed to get into the channel of 40 -.- I have only specifically mentioned Faoi in tl threads in threads about maps. It's hardly a non sequator to talk about a map in a thread about maps, and I was joking in all those threads (wcg map thread for example, rofl). Then I get flamed for saying I think TSL has a boring mappool, it has three maps, which are all played a lot, and offer nothing special, why do I get flamed for saying that, even when others next to me agree or say the same thing? And now it's my fault that people won't play YOUR map? My map is in ICCup and no one plays it. I even made a new version which is 100% better, but yello-ant won't update it in the iccup mappool because "everyone already loves faoi" rofl.
Sorry for double post, but I figured Chill or Hot_Bid would nuke this post, and my previous post had some thread-relevant material ._.
if that's your logic, you should had better PM'd him.
On topic, i don't agree fully on your analysis. I can't write all that i disagree (since it actually requires me to play the map to have any value what is said) but in balance analysis, you just can't use words as "probably", "odds" or "catching off guard".
edit: btw, you haven't answered my question about the cannons/ramp yet. Can cannons shoot up ramp the double generators in main (if lings are attacking it, for example) or does they need vision from other source?
That would destroy the concept entirely. That's like saying, wouldn't it be nice if you removed the min walls on monty hall, or took out that silly tight choke in bluestorm/peaks/blitzx.
On May 01 2008 11:41 Nightmarjoo wrote: That would destroy the concept entirely. That's like saying, wouldn't it be nice if you removed the min walls on monty hall, or took out that silly tight choke in bluestorm/peaks/blitzx.
Oh...ok...I was just wondering if it would fix some of the imbalances...
On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night.
Want some ad hominem action? Seriously, fuck off. You have been around long enough that should have seen the bias against "foreign" and "amateur" maps long before I made Faoi. I recall vividly mappers trying to get people to play their maps, and in response to "why" they'd point out positional and/or racial imbalances in "pro" maps, and point out the elleged lack of, in their maps, and non-mappers began to flame foreign mappers for saying their maps were so much better, and that they were saying pro maps sucked, etc. I have never seen a single mapper suggest that, yet the prejudice remains. Why would you associate any of that with me? All I ever did was spam "PLAY ON FAOI" in an event where people were expected to spam. I fail to see at all why people hate me/faoi for spamming, when 39 other voices were drowning me out. That's even if I managed to get into the channel of 40 -.- I have only specifically mentioned Faoi in tl threads in threads about maps. It's hardly a non sequator to talk about a map in a thread about maps, and I was joking in all those threads (wcg map thread for example, rofl). Then I get flamed for saying I think TSL has a boring mappool, it has three maps, which are all played a lot, and offer nothing special, why do I get flamed for saying that, even when others next to me agree or say the same thing? And now it's my fault that people won't play YOUR map? My map is in ICCup and no one plays it. I even made a new version which is 100% better, but yello-ant won't update it in the iccup mappool because "everyone already loves faoi" rofl.
Sorry for double post, but I figured Chill or Hot_Bid would nuke this post, and my previous post had some thread-relevant material ._.
Look, you've obviously gone up against someone who doesn't agree with your position before. And it's going to keep happening in your life in the future.
In my eyes, as a map maker, you basically have a couple choices: - You can accept that your map isn't going to to change the game, and be fine with it going vastly unplayed. - You can complain that your map doesn't get played. - You can promote the shit out of it and try to get exposure.
Now doing any of these doesn't mean people aren't going to call a spade a spade. So when I see you spamming the shit out of this forum, or our stream, do you expect me to go "tee hee, there's that silly Nightmarjoo again. Everyone go play his map."? I think your map is bland, imbalanced, and I find you promoting it extremely annoying. So that's what my comments are going to reflect. If I liked your map I would help you promote it but putting it on the show, but I don't, so I didnt.
That doesn't mean you should stop promoting it. Maybe it's difficult to tell how far you can push it, considering I have told you I find you annoying. Being annoying isn't doing anything wrong. Part of your job is to be as annoying promoting your map as possible to give it exposure. Part of my job as a moderator is to tell you whe you've crossed the line (with a warning/ban). That doesn't mean I can't still say personally I find your promotion annoying and I wish you would stop.
So don't try to play the martyr. I've found you personally annoying for months and you haven't even received a warning. "Wah Hot_Bid / Chill are going to nuke me". Well that's because you've done nothing for our community but spam your map for months. But that's the game map makers have to play if you truly believe in your map. Ask me the name of a foreign map made in the last two years and I can only answer Faoi.
On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: I won't even try to argue about balance, since you're probably right, but I could play 15 games trying to overcome odds and not get bored.
What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night.
I feel like my map is fun, but shown to be imbalanced in testing thus far (but in my heart, I'd play 20 games before I gave up trying to disprove it). I don't really know how to fix it. Suggestions I've been given seem like they would just change who the imbalance favours, and nothing else. So I don't know, if I have an epiphany I'll rework this map, but I might just have to declare it junk/silly if I can't.
I won't make any new maps though (except if Chill wants me to make a map from his drawings, since it'll auto be played because it's Chill's), because frankly making a hype video, getting someone to make a commentary, and going thru all this shit just to get people to even try to maybe consider your map (and still have a million preconceptions before the game starts) is too much work. I've made enough terrible maps anyway.
Call all this whining if you want, call me unable to take criticism, call it whatever you want; I'm not ready to sacrifice more time on a lost cause. I'd rather just play SC from now on, so I can be one of the critical people
='[
I knew it was going to get to this point. I remember someone a while back had posted their map and someone just said "Who gives a shit about your map, nobody will play it anyways!" and I thought about it... it's true. The masses are afraid of anything new... They haven't even started playing the new Proleague/MSL maps, they're all too attached to Longinus/Python...
BWMN just needs a rework and it will be more popular. The site itself is ugly and plain... But, seriously, foreign maps are waaaaay prettier/have more work put into them than the dingy, plain Korean pro maps that are being shelled out nowadays. BWMN just needs a better image... or something.
On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: I won't even try to argue about balance, since you're probably right, but I could play 15 games trying to overcome odds and not get bored.
What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night.
I feel like my map is fun, but shown to be imbalanced in testing thus far (but in my heart, I'd play 20 games before I gave up trying to disprove it). I don't really know how to fix it. Suggestions I've been given seem like they would just change who the imbalance favours, and nothing else. So I don't know, if I have an epiphany I'll rework this map, but I might just have to declare it junk/silly if I can't.
I won't make any new maps though (except if Chill wants me to make a map from his drawings, since it'll auto be played because it's Chill's), because frankly making a hype video, getting someone to make a commentary, and going thru all this shit just to get people to even try to maybe consider your map (and still have a million preconceptions before the game starts) is too much work. I've made enough terrible maps anyway.
Call all this whining if you want, call me unable to take criticism, call it whatever you want; I'm not ready to sacrifice more time on a lost cause. I'd rather just play SC from now on, so I can be one of the critical people
Alright, I can feel a little empathy for you, but not much. I made a well-thought-out post about why your map was imbalanced. You said it needed testing and picked apart my post. So I took a couple hours to play on it. And I did what I said I would do in my post, and it worked every time, and it was imbalanced.
In the end, my assumption was that you are making a competitive map. If you are making a "fun" map that you know is imbalanced and you just want people to fool around on, that's fine. I assume you aren't though given your comments. If you want a competitive map, maybe you should work together and listen to what the competitive players are telling you. Every game on your map starts with cheese. If that's something you want, fine, but don't give us shit for criticizing it rather than praising it.
In order to get a map played, this is what I would do. It's all about marketing. While your map is wildly imbalanced, post asking for suggestions to improve it. This will bring out the people who are looking to help people. I know that I personally really like analysing a map and figuring out where it's weaknesses are. And there's tons of people on this forum who love doing that shit too; however, when you make a post like this where the map is more or less "final", you're not going to draw them out. Then, when the map is somewhat balanced, post a hype post like you did to get people interested.
Your problem is you did things out of order. You think your map is almost done so you posted the hype when it's still totally imbalanced. So when people offer criticism, you've already moved past the "looking for help" stage, you didn't really take it as criticism and got really defensive. WHICH IS FINE. But don't get all sad when we're trying to help you improve your map. Just say you don't want suggestions and the map is final, then you save everyone a lot of time.
On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: I won't even try to argue about balance, since you're probably right, but I could play 15 games trying to overcome odds and not get bored.
What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night.
I feel like my map is fun, but shown to be imbalanced in testing thus far (but in my heart, I'd play 20 games before I gave up trying to disprove it). I don't really know how to fix it. Suggestions I've been given seem like they would just change who the imbalance favours, and nothing else. So I don't know, if I have an epiphany I'll rework this map, but I might just have to declare it junk/silly if I can't.
I won't make any new maps though (except if Chill wants me to make a map from his drawings, since it'll auto be played because it's Chill's), because frankly making a hype video, getting someone to make a commentary, and going thru all this shit just to get people to even try to maybe consider your map (and still have a million preconceptions before the game starts) is too much work. I've made enough terrible maps anyway.
Call all this whining if you want, call me unable to take criticism, call it whatever you want; I'm not ready to sacrifice more time on a lost cause. I'd rather just play SC from now on, so I can be one of the critical people
='[
I knew it was going to get to this point. I remember someone a while back had posted their map and someone just said "Who gives a shit about your map, nobody will play it anyways!" and I thought about it... it's true. The masses are afraid of anything new... They haven't even started playing the new Proleague/MSL maps, they're all too attached to Longinus/Python...
BWMN just needs a rework and it will be more popular. The site itself is ugly and plain... But, seriously, foreign maps are waaaaay prettier/have more work put into them than the dingy, plain Korean pro maps that are being shelled out nowadays. BWMN just needs a better image... or something.
._.
It comes down to do you want to play CrAzY imabalnced maps, or slightly boring balanced maps? I think the majority of people can enjoy the latter, while only a few can enjoy the former.
And this is where the disconnect is coming. Weak players keep saying that Koreans keep putting out the same old shit, and that's somewhat true. But it's because balanced maps need to follow a few key principles, and there's only a few ways to reshape those principles.
So when you make a map without a natural or encourage a 5 Pool, it should be pretty evident when the competitive community isn't lining up to play it. Show me a map on BWMN that rivals a Korean map. I don't browse the site, but my assumption is going to be that their maps are highly gimmicky or highly polished without addressing fundamental balanced issues. A terrible assumption and I'd love you to prove me wrong.
On May 02 2008 01:19 Chill wrote: It comes down to do you want to play CrAzY imabalnced maps, or slightly boring balanced maps? I think the majority of people can enjoy the latter, while only a few can enjoy the former.
Going to have to agree with this. While I love the concept of this map, and while I'm always excited about new maps they bring into the professional leagues, when I'm actually playing, I prefer to play balanced maps, because it's aggravating to lose due to serious balance issues. That's why when I play zerg I avoid Longinus and Katrina, for example, unless I'm seriously bored enough and nonchalant enough to be willing to handle the annoyance of fighting an uphill battle. And as Chill implied, I think that's a large, large part of why Python and a few other select maps are super over-played, they're rather balanced, and thus people feel comfortable playing on those maps because that's the best barometer of "skill."
Why else would people rage and froth over Katrina and Loki (and formerly Monty Hall), all maps with very interesting concepts, but both maps also with tremendous balance issues?
The point is, as a foreign map maker you're competing against these, and because you don't have professional gamers testing your maps, you're going to have to simply go by criticism and keep changing it until your map is balanced and interesting. Enough so that people are willing to give it a try, because it's so much more comfortable to be able to watch a pro-gamer play a map, then copy how they play the new map and absorb it into your knowledge bank.
On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night.
Want some ad hominem action? Seriously, fuck off. You have been around long enough that should have seen the bias against "foreign" and "amateur" maps long before I made Faoi. I recall vividly mappers trying to get people to play their maps, and in response to "why" they'd point out positional and/or racial imbalances in "pro" maps, and point out the elleged lack of, in their maps, and non-mappers began to flame foreign mappers for saying their maps were so much better, and that they were saying pro maps sucked, etc. I have never seen a single mapper suggest that, yet the prejudice remains. Why would you associate any of that with me? All I ever did was spam "PLAY ON FAOI" in an event where people were expected to spam. I fail to see at all why people hate me/faoi for spamming, when 39 other voices were drowning me out. That's even if I managed to get into the channel of 40 -.- I have only specifically mentioned Faoi in tl threads in threads about maps. It's hardly a non sequator to talk about a map in a thread about maps, and I was joking in all those threads (wcg map thread for example, rofl). Then I get flamed for saying I think TSL has a boring mappool, it has three maps, which are all played a lot, and offer nothing special, why do I get flamed for saying that, even when others next to me agree or say the same thing? And now it's my fault that people won't play YOUR map? My map is in ICCup and no one plays it. I even made a new version which is 100% better, but yello-ant won't update it in the iccup mappool because "everyone already loves faoi" rofl.
Sorry for double post, but I figured Chill or Hot_Bid would nuke this post, and my previous post had some thread-relevant material ._.
On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: I won't even try to argue about balance, since you're probably right, but I could play 15 games trying to overcome odds and not get bored.
What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night.
I feel like my map is fun, but shown to be imbalanced in testing thus far (but in my heart, I'd play 20 games before I gave up trying to disprove it). I don't really know how to fix it. Suggestions I've been given seem like they would just change who the imbalance favours, and nothing else. So I don't know, if I have an epiphany I'll rework this map, but I might just have to declare it junk/silly if I can't.
I won't make any new maps though (except if Chill wants me to make a map from his drawings, since it'll auto be played because it's Chill's), because frankly making a hype video, getting someone to make a commentary, and going thru all this shit just to get people to even try to maybe consider your map (and still have a million preconceptions before the game starts) is too much work. I've made enough terrible maps anyway.
Call all this whining if you want, call me unable to take criticism, call it whatever you want; I'm not ready to sacrifice more time on a lost cause. I'd rather just play SC from now on, so I can be one of the critical people
='[
I knew it was going to get to this point. I remember someone a while back had posted their map and someone just said "Who gives a shit about your map, nobody will play it anyways!" and I thought about it... it's true. The masses are afraid of anything new... They haven't even started playing the new Proleague/MSL maps, they're all too attached to Longinus/Python...
BWMN just needs a rework and it will be more popular. The site itself is ugly and plain... But, seriously, foreign maps are waaaaay prettier/have more work put into them than the dingy, plain Korean pro maps that are being shelled out nowadays. BWMN just needs a better image... or something.
._.
It comes down to do you want to play CrAzY imabalnced maps, or slightly boring balanced maps? I think the majority of people can enjoy the latter, while only a few can enjoy the former.
And this is where the disconnect is coming. Weak players keep saying that Koreans keep putting out the same old shit, and that's somewhat true. But it's because balanced maps need to follow a few key principles, and there's only a few ways to reshape those principles.
So when you make a map without a natural or encourage a 5 Pool, it should be pretty evident when the competitive community isn't lining up to play it. Show me a map on BWMN that rivals a Korean map. I don't browse the site, but my assumption is going to be that their maps are highly gimmicky or highly polished without addressing fundamental balanced issues. A terrible assumption and I'd love you to prove me wrong.
Nobody browses that site, not even me. It's ugly XD
I forgot to address that in my post though, foreign maps tend to be more imbalanced; I didn't mention that in my other post, I just said foreigner maps are more pretty/more work is put into them xD
On May 02 2008 02:47 Chill wrote: They're prettier, but there isn't more work put into them.
What? Doesn't making it prettier = having to put more work into it? XD
Plus, to get the map known far and wide and/or at least popular is very hard to do as well. Look at what PsychoTemplar did, he got a commentator, made a thread with a banner, a hype video, and had to play a lot of games on it just to make it somewhat appealing. None of it pays out in the end since nobody will play it, we'll just bash it and go back to Longinus and Python.
You might say "Well, the Korean mappers have to take balance into consideration blah blah blah more time put into it than the foreigners", but, really, they can just label the map as "experimental [insert starcraft league here] map" and give it to the pros/semi pros and have them rape the shit out of every nook and cranny in the map and test it out. Then they add balance changes later on, once the map has been raped enough.
Foreign mappers have us... and we all pretty much just say the map sucks compared to [korean map] and will not play on it, which is what the creator wants really. In order to fix balance problems, people need to play on it and see what's up. If nobody plays on it, it's impossible to fix balance problems...
thing is, the blunt of the people play ladder games, were you want a balanced map in which you can win/lose through your skill, and not to a weird cheese, 1 hit strategy or such. That's why some Korean maps get a lot more of games than others. This kind of map would work if important tournaments (non korean, of course) would implement competitions to see which map gets in it. Which would not always work since the players usually will be against learning new maps for a tourney.
Well, I can try to get on at 7pm, and it'll be 12am your time if that's okay... otherwise I'll have to find an afternoon so that you can play at a more reasonable time (I'm busy at the moment
Played two games of TvZ with a more standard 9/10/13 build (which are uploaded), and it was much easier than when I was doing BBS. Obviously Alfgau isn't as good as Chill, but I don't know. Conflicting results are confusing, and I think with a dominant strategy, even people who aren't as good should be able to win with it (if I was able to beat Chill, it would make sense that a strat is dominant, but him beating me doesn't prove that much to me). *Prepares to hear comments about how stubborn I am*
On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night.
Want some ad hominem action? Seriously, fuck off. You have been around long enough that should have seen the bias against "foreign" and "amateur" maps long before I made Faoi. I recall vividly mappers trying to get people to play their maps, and in response to "why" they'd point out positional and/or racial imbalances in "pro" maps, and point out the elleged lack of, in their maps, and non-mappers began to flame foreign mappers for saying their maps were so much better, and that they were saying pro maps sucked, etc. I have never seen a single mapper suggest that, yet the prejudice remains. Why would you associate any of that with me? All I ever did was spam "PLAY ON FAOI" in an event where people were expected to spam. I fail to see at all why people hate me/faoi for spamming, when 39 other voices were drowning me out. That's even if I managed to get into the channel of 40 -.- I have only specifically mentioned Faoi in tl threads in threads about maps. It's hardly a non sequator to talk about a map in a thread about maps, and I was joking in all those threads (wcg map thread for example, rofl). Then I get flamed for saying I think TSL has a boring mappool, it has three maps, which are all played a lot, and offer nothing special, why do I get flamed for saying that, even when others next to me agree or say the same thing? And now it's my fault that people won't play YOUR map? My map is in ICCup and no one plays it. I even made a new version which is 100% better, but yello-ant won't update it in the iccup mappool because "everyone already loves faoi" rofl.
Sorry for double post, but I figured Chill or Hot_Bid would nuke this post, and my previous post had some thread-relevant material ._.
Look, you've obviously gone up against someone who doesn't agree with your position before. And it's going to keep happening in your life in the future.
In my eyes, as a map maker, you basically have a couple choices: - You can accept that your map isn't going to to change the game, and be fine with it going vastly unplayed. - You can complain that your map doesn't get played. - You can promote the shit out of it and try to get exposure.
Now doing any of these doesn't mean people aren't going to call a spade a spade. So when I see you spamming the shit out of this forum, or our stream, do you expect me to go "tee hee, there's that silly Nightmarjoo again. Everyone go play his map."? I think your map is bland, imbalanced, and I find you promoting it extremely annoying. So that's what my comments are going to reflect. If I liked your map I would help you promote it but putting it on the show, but I don't, so I didnt.
That doesn't mean you should stop promoting it. Maybe it's difficult to tell how far you can push it, considering I have told you I find you annoying. Being annoying isn't doing anything wrong. Part of your job is to be as annoying promoting your map as possible to give it exposure. Part of my job as a moderator is to tell you whe you've crossed the line (with a warning/ban). That doesn't mean I can't still say personally I find your promotion annoying and I wish you would stop.
So don't try to play the martyr. I've found you personally annoying for months and you haven't even received a warning. "Wah Hot_Bid / Chill are going to nuke me". Well that's because you've done nothing for our community but spam your map for months. But that's the game map makers have to play if you truly believe in your map. Ask me the name of a foreign map made in the last two years and I can only answer Faoi.
I don't mind you telling me to stop spamming, that's your job, and I said I'd stop spamming before I crossed a line. I'm sorry I've become annoying; I think all the faoi hate is what prompted me to spam the map more. I think my approach to promotion has simply been wrong, but being a mapper isn't easy. Look at templar, he's got 6 pages of comments mostly saying they like the map, but few reps are appearing for it outside of the ones he himself played. I got the stupid map into iccup and as far as I know no one plays the map. The version in iccup imo sucks, but yello-ant won't put the much improved version in. The map has been called bad, but no one will tell me why, no one will play it, I see games on it on iccup every now and then but no replays show up when I ask for them. There just is a brick wall in front of all foreign mappers, one that seemingly didn't exist (or atleast that wall had some cracks) during pgt.
As for foreign maps made in the last two years, Artist, Nazca, Arena, Sattarchasm, Shine, Calypso, Survivor, On The Rocks, Technetium, Osom, Trench Warfare, Sleeping Sun, Nightlight, King of the Abyss, Crusader, Roads to Antiga Prime, Thunder, Cryptic Island, Fallen Matrix, Kingdom of Zerus, River of Gods, Mars Attacks, White Lies, Regnum Noctis, Aphrodite, Gotterdammerung, Dirz, Kingdom of Aruga, Goddess of Day, Amistad, Space River, Rubi, Avatar, Undying Lands, Taklamakan, FeedSomebodySSoul, Jericho, Angband 3600 ft 1.2, Dreamcatcher, Scope Lens, Morris Plains, Memory Cell, along with many MOTWs and MOTMs from bwm have all been used in some league or tournament or another, some lucky enough to get into iccup, wgt, and/or pgt. Some are maybe three years old at most, most are within the last two years.
My point is just that I wish the foreign community's power, the sites, were more friendly towards the foreign mapping community. This does NOT necessarily mean putting maps into TLA or TSL just for the hell of it, but it could include perhaps helping the mappers (who usually lack good connections) organize showmatches, not calling mappers annoying (public figures are often expected to display restraint when it comes to voicing their opinions, as they are so influencial) even if you think it's true (there's a difference from telling Nightmarjoo he should stop spamming as it is disruptive and unproductive to the site and telling Nightmarjoo he's annoying, which means everyone who doesn't know Nightmarjoo or Faoi automatically connects both with annoyance upon seeing your post).
I see your side of course, and will drastically reconsider my approach to attempting to promote my personal map, and the maps of others.
Oh and, you said you think Faoi is bland and imbalanced? I understand bland in that conceptually it's pretty similar to many of the standard maps (this done on purpose, in an attempt to make a map more player while making something different, to try and make players more likely to play on it), but I'd like to know what you think is imbalanced about this. I really get absolutely no feedback on the map, despite some initial concerns which I believe I have addressed in my edits, so anything you can say is helpful.
On May 02 2008 02:47 Chill wrote: They're prettier, but there isn't more work put into them.
What? Doesn't making it prettier = having to put more work into it? XD
Plus, to get the map known far and wide and/or at least popular is very hard to do as well. Look at what PsychoTemplar did, he got a commentator, made a thread with a banner, a hype video, and had to play a lot of games on it just to make it somewhat appealing. None of it pays out in the end since nobody will play it, we'll just bash it and go back to Longinus and Python.
You might say "Well, the Korean mappers have to take balance into consideration blah blah blah more time put into it than the foreigners", but, really, they can just label the map as "experimental [insert starcraft league here] map" and give it to the pros/semi pros and have them rape the shit out of every nook and cranny in the map and test it out. Then they add balance changes later on, once the map has been raped enough.
Foreign mappers have us... and we all pretty much just say the map sucks compared to [korean map] and will not play on it, which is what the creator wants really. In order to fix balance problems, people need to play on it and see what's up. If nobody plays on it, it's impossible to fix balance problems...
._.!
In other words, lost cause.
I can tell you, the pro mappers definitely put a LOT more time and work into their maps. While making, testing, and modifying a map can take a couple weeks to create a "final" product at the foreign level, the korean pro mappers can spend MONTHS tweaking and testing their maps. The testing process can be a little easier for them because they have good connections, but they still spend way more work on their maps to get them into the final product the pros play on the big screen.
I'd have to disagree with you on the "lost cause" aspect. I see what you're saying, but bare in mind that pgt's MOTS came from broodwarmaps.net, and many people played on that map daily.
As for the "prettier" thing, foreign mappers try to address all the little complaints people have about the pro maps (this concept is a little dated as korean mappers have changed their outlook on mapping), eg. visual aesthetics, positional imbalance, and other things, in an attempt to make their maps stand out and give players a reason to play on them.
Templar will always have trouble getting a map like Waiting to Panic played, it's just superficially so radically different than the modern map that players would be afraid to play it. During the age of Bifrost the map would probably be well-received ._. Though imo the map really isn't that different, it keeps a lot of the macro orientation, but creates a very micro-friendly environment players seem to notice first.
edit: templar I can play the map with you if you want, or you can put me against someone else on the map, etc.
On May 02 2008 06:18 PsycHOTemplar wrote: Played two games of TvZ with a more standard 9/10/13 build (which are uploaded), and it was much easier than when I was doing BBS. Obviously Alfgau isn't as good as Chill, but I don't know. Conflicting results are confusing, and I think with a dominant strategy, even people who aren't as good should be able to win with it (if I was able to beat Chill, it would make sense that a strat is dominant, but him beating me doesn't prove that much to me). *Prepares to hear comments about how stubborn I am*
All I'm saying is I want more testing.
What did he do? I'd imagine 7 Pool -> Sunken would still crush 9/10.
I'd advise all Zergs when playing against Terran to try 7 Pool -> Sunken and see what your win rate is like. If he blocks you Sunkening his minerals, Sunken his arch, use the Zerglings to defend it until it's a Sunken, then kill the SCV, then Sunken his minerals and play normally.
I'll admit, I'm a stickler for map conformity. I only play standard maps, macro maps, maps that I can play my usual style and win based on superior macro or game sense. That being said, I feel that I owe it to you to try the map seeing as you've spend so much time making and promoting it. I'll try to find someone in Clan Art / tl-west to test it on
On May 02 2008 06:18 PsycHOTemplar wrote: Played two games of TvZ with a more standard 9/10/13 build (which are uploaded), and it was much easier than when I was doing BBS. Obviously Alfgau isn't as good as Chill, but I don't know. Conflicting results are confusing, and I think with a dominant strategy, even people who aren't as good should be able to win with it (if I was able to beat Chill, it would make sense that a strat is dominant, but him beating me doesn't prove that much to me). *Prepares to hear comments about how stubborn I am*
All I'm saying is I want more testing.
What did he do? I'd imagine 7 Pool -> Sunken would still crush 9/10.
I'd advise all Zergs when playing against Terran to try 7 Pool -> Sunken and see what your win rate is like. If he blocks you Sunkening his minerals, Sunken his arch, use the Zerglings to defend it until it's a Sunken, then kill the SCV, then Sunken his minerals and play normally.
lol alfgau is Me XDD well basically i played like a noob -_- did everything wrong, i played very hungry zerg made too many lings (useless because bunkers surrounded by 2 rax and depot is imba)
i think i also should've reinforced the sunk defending his 'arch' entrance thing with more sunks. i also tried to play 1 hatchery lurker which failed lol because i made too many lings which were useless so i had drones slow
also @ nightmarjoo's post i agree with many of the points you've made :o
i feel quite sorry for the 'foreign' mapmaker scene lol. i mean you guys just make all these maps and for what?
there's no chance that they'll become maps for the next PL OSL MSL or whatever, and there's not even any support for these maps from the foreign scene itself
What did he do? I'd imagine 7 Pool -> Sunken would still crush 9/10.
I'd advise all Zergs when playing against Terran to try 7 Pool -> Sunken and see what your win rate is like. If he blocks you Sunkening his minerals, Sunken his arch, use the Zerglings to defend it until it's a Sunken, then kill the SCV, then Sunken his minerals and play normally.
I instructed him to do exactly that, as that's the strategy that you've told me is dominant. Both replays are on the map page (linked to in the OP post). You can view them and tell me what he screwed up most, but it's hard for me personally to tell (although I haven't checked the replays yet, just what I recall from playing).
On April 30 2008 07:45 PsycHOTemplar wrote: What I will say is this: It's become obvious just how much certain mappers (coughnightmarjoocough) have hurt the foreign community's outlook on their mappers. I got so much hate last night, I ended up just feeling awful, and when I'm trying to play like that, I just don't feel good even if I think I put up a fight. I got all this garbage from people telling me "LOL FOREIGN MAPPERS SO DUMB! THEY THINK THEIR MAPS ARE BETTER THAN KOREAN BUT THEY'RE ALL IMBA LOL IM A CUNT" When I personally have said no such thing. Somehow BWMN has gotten such an awful reputation, that just posting your maps there seems to warrant everyone belittling you for a good hour or so. If you try to defend yourself, you're outnumbered by the bandwagon, and if you just let it go on, you feel miserable, and they accuse you of being an asshole anyway for saying nothing. I welcome criticism on my map, but not criticism of me personally (ad hominem, I mean), and I felt pretty hurt by what was said last night.
Want some ad hominem action? Seriously, fuck off. You have been around long enough that should have seen the bias against "foreign" and "amateur" maps long before I made Faoi. I recall vividly mappers trying to get people to play their maps, and in response to "why" they'd point out positional and/or racial imbalances in "pro" maps, and point out the elleged lack of, in their maps, and non-mappers began to flame foreign mappers for saying their maps were so much better, and that they were saying pro maps sucked, etc. I have never seen a single mapper suggest that, yet the prejudice remains. Why would you associate any of that with me? All I ever did was spam "PLAY ON FAOI" in an event where people were expected to spam. I fail to see at all why people hate me/faoi for spamming, when 39 other voices were drowning me out. That's even if I managed to get into the channel of 40 -.- I have only specifically mentioned Faoi in tl threads in threads about maps. It's hardly a non sequator to talk about a map in a thread about maps, and I was joking in all those threads (wcg map thread for example, rofl). Then I get flamed for saying I think TSL has a boring mappool, it has three maps, which are all played a lot, and offer nothing special, why do I get flamed for saying that, even when others next to me agree or say the same thing? And now it's my fault that people won't play YOUR map? My map is in ICCup and no one plays it. I even made a new version which is 100% better, but yello-ant won't update it in the iccup mappool because "everyone already loves faoi" rofl.
Sorry for double post, but I figured Chill or Hot_Bid would nuke this post, and my previous post had some thread-relevant material ._.
Look, you've obviously gone up against someone who doesn't agree with your position before. And it's going to keep happening in your life in the future.
In my eyes, as a map maker, you basically have a couple choices: - You can accept that your map isn't going to to change the game, and be fine with it going vastly unplayed. - You can complain that your map doesn't get played. - You can promote the shit out of it and try to get exposure.
Now doing any of these doesn't mean people aren't going to call a spade a spade. So when I see you spamming the shit out of this forum, or our stream, do you expect me to go "tee hee, there's that silly Nightmarjoo again. Everyone go play his map."? I think your map is bland, imbalanced, and I find you promoting it extremely annoying. So that's what my comments are going to reflect. If I liked your map I would help you promote it but putting it on the show, but I don't, so I didnt.
That doesn't mean you should stop promoting it. Maybe it's difficult to tell how far you can push it, considering I have told you I find you annoying. Being annoying isn't doing anything wrong. Part of your job is to be as annoying promoting your map as possible to give it exposure. Part of my job as a moderator is to tell you whe you've crossed the line (with a warning/ban). That doesn't mean I can't still say personally I find your promotion annoying and I wish you would stop.
So don't try to play the martyr. I've found you personally annoying for months and you haven't even received a warning. "Wah Hot_Bid / Chill are going to nuke me". Well that's because you've done nothing for our community but spam your map for months. But that's the game map makers have to play if you truly believe in your map. Ask me the name of a foreign map made in the last two years and I can only answer Faoi.
I don't mind you telling me to stop spamming, that's your job, and I said I'd stop spamming before I crossed a line. I'm sorry I've become annoying; I think all the faoi hate is what prompted me to spam the map more. I think my approach to promotion has simply been wrong, but being a mapper isn't easy. Look at templar, he's got 6 pages of comments mostly saying they like the map, but few reps are appearing for it outside of the ones he himself played. I got the stupid map into iccup and as far as I know no one plays the map. The version in iccup imo sucks, but yello-ant won't put the much improved version in. The map has been called bad, but no one will tell me why, no one will play it, I see games on it on iccup every now and then but no replays show up when I ask for them. There just is a brick wall in front of all foreign mappers, one that seemingly didn't exist (or atleast that wall had some cracks) during pgt.
As for foreign maps made in the last two years, Artist, Nazca, Arena, Sattarchasm, Shine, Calypso, Survivor, On The Rocks, Technetium, Osom, Trench Warfare, Sleeping Sun, Nightlight, King of the Abyss, Crusader, Roads to Antiga Prime, Thunder, Cryptic Island, Fallen Matrix, Kingdom of Zerus, River of Gods, Mars Attacks, White Lies, Regnum Noctis, Aphrodite, Gotterdammerung, Dirz, Kingdom of Aruga, Goddess of Day, Amistad, Space River, Rubi, Avatar, Undying Lands, Taklamakan, FeedSomebodySSoul, Jericho, Angband 3600 ft 1.2, Dreamcatcher, Scope Lens, Morris Plains, Memory Cell, along with many MOTWs and MOTMs from bwm have all been used in some league or tournament or another, some lucky enough to get into iccup, wgt, and/or pgt. Some are maybe three years old at most, most are within the last two years.
My point is just that I wish the foreign community's power, the sites, were more friendly towards the foreign mapping community. This does NOT necessarily mean putting maps into TLA or TSL just for the hell of it, but it could include perhaps helping the mappers (who usually lack good connections) organize showmatches, not calling mappers annoying (public figures are often expected to display restraint when it comes to voicing their opinions, as they are so influencial) even if you think it's true (there's a difference from telling Nightmarjoo he should stop spamming as it is disruptive and unproductive to the site and telling Nightmarjoo he's annoying, which means everyone who doesn't know Nightmarjoo or Faoi automatically connects both with annoyance upon seeing your post).
I see your side of course, and will drastically reconsider my approach to attempting to promote my personal map, and the maps of others.
Oh and, you said you think Faoi is bland and imbalanced? I understand bland in that conceptually it's pretty similar to many of the standard maps (this done on purpose, in an attempt to make a map more player while making something different, to try and make players more likely to play on it), but I'd like to know what you think is imbalanced about this. I really get absolutely no feedback on the map, despite some initial concerns which I believe I have addressed in my edits, so anything you can say is helpful.
On May 02 2008 02:47 Chill wrote: They're prettier, but there isn't more work put into them.
What? Doesn't making it prettier = having to put more work into it? XD
Plus, to get the map known far and wide and/or at least popular is very hard to do as well. Look at what PsychoTemplar did, he got a commentator, made a thread with a banner, a hype video, and had to play a lot of games on it just to make it somewhat appealing. None of it pays out in the end since nobody will play it, we'll just bash it and go back to Longinus and Python.
You might say "Well, the Korean mappers have to take balance into consideration blah blah blah more time put into it than the foreigners", but, really, they can just label the map as "experimental [insert starcraft league here] map" and give it to the pros/semi pros and have them rape the shit out of every nook and cranny in the map and test it out. Then they add balance changes later on, once the map has been raped enough.
Foreign mappers have us... and we all pretty much just say the map sucks compared to [korean map] and will not play on it, which is what the creator wants really. In order to fix balance problems, people need to play on it and see what's up. If nobody plays on it, it's impossible to fix balance problems...
._.!
In other words, lost cause.
I can tell you, the pro mappers definitely put a LOT more time and work into their maps. While making, testing, and modifying a map can take a couple weeks to create a "final" product at the foreign level, the korean pro mappers can spend MONTHS tweaking and testing their maps. The testing process can be a little easier for them because they have good connections, but they still spend way more work on their maps to get them into the final product the pros play on the big screen.
I'd have to disagree with you on the "lost cause" aspect. I see what you're saying, but bare in mind that pgt's MOTS came from broodwarmaps.net, and many people played on that map daily.
As for the "prettier" thing, foreign mappers try to address all the little complaints people have about the pro maps (this concept is a little dated as korean mappers have changed their outlook on mapping), eg. visual aesthetics, positional imbalance, and other things, in an attempt to make their maps stand out and give players a reason to play on them.
Templar will always have trouble getting a map like Waiting to Panic played, it's just superficially so radically different than the modern map that players would be afraid to play it. During the age of Bifrost the map would probably be well-received ._. Though imo the map really isn't that different, it keeps a lot of the macro orientation, but creates a very micro-friendly environment players seem to notice first.
edit: templar I can play the map with you if you want, or you can put me against someone else on the map, etc.
Most maps don't focus on position so much. In some sense, the farther you retreat, the better your situation becomes. This is pivotal because it lets you get back in the game.
Although it may not be instantly clear, let's look at some examples: Blue Storm - The middle ramp shifts from disadvatge to advantage the farther back you go. Again, if you retreat to your natural or any expansion from the middle, you pass through a choke. Longinus - You have a "safe" double gas expansion in your "territory". If someone camps the higher ground, you can build up from the double gas and break out. Python - The middle is completely open, no one receives a bonus from retreating/defending. Katrina - Many ramps favour a retreat, including your ramp into your main. Ungoru Crater - Your natural's ramp and the many chokes in the middle. Zodiac - The choke to your natural and the ramps to your third.
What I'm trying to say is that on any of these maps, someone can give up position for macro, defend while retreating, and then break out. The terrain isn't shaped poorly enough to make position that important in all but a few cases.
On your map, once I lose my high ground what do I do? Although it may seem like the Longinus case, it's much different (in my eyes). On Longinus, I can give up my high ground, still have access to 4 bases and 4 geysers, and then I can focus my attack on either of the large ramps.
On Faoi, if I lose my high ground, what can I do? I have access to 2 bases and 2 geysers. I have basically only one breakout option, since the other ramp is so small. So the game becomes a race to sacrifice expansions for position.
Again, this is all theory craft but I think it's accurate.
The solution? Move the mineral-only I guess, but that's basically a key feature in the map, so I don't know what you can do.
I would have to always take the island as my third base instead of the mineral only for that to work. Which maybe is the only way to play the map? I don't know.
I always thought 2 lurks on second main's ramp was more popular than taking a min only o.o
EDIT: Ah, probably only for ZvT lol Wasn't even thinking about ZvP (although I guess taking another main's natural is pretty popular too).
EDIT again: By the way, I'd like to apologise to NightmarJoo. It was stupid and immature of me to name names, and I really didn't need to finger him out like that. What he's done had no foul intentions, and really shit just happened. It wasn't the best way to go about things, but it's not hard to imagine myself or someone well respected to have been caught in the same sort of fiasco.
I loved Coulee, but the rest of the foreign map makers aint getting much of my love. I dont blame most of em though, they never get (good) people to decently test them.
I do blame those that keep claiming that it's balanced when it's clearly not.
Maybe TL could reach out to the foreign map-making community and try to power it, that way? I mean, we have the community, we have a fair number of players willing to give these things a shot, and we have TL Attack AND the TSL to promote foreign maps... maybe a year down the line we would have an all-foreign map TSL and have a blast at it O_O Given the map database for TLPD I can't imagine (but I'm not coder or anything) the system would be THAT much more complicated?
My response to you is simply going to be, Why would I care about BWMN? And with the power of TLA and TSL, iCCup does not strike me as so stupidly stubborn that they'd turn down requests by TL, if TL so desired to push that sort of thing. TL has the clout, the community and the talent to drive forth foreign maps, I think. *shrugs*
hmm i acutally had a decent ZvZ on this, i misjudged the distance between the bases and got owned later on though, even though my harrass was somehow effective. Still a nice game, i can't wait to play some more on it, great map :D
what was that one map from a looooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg time ago that actually did make it into the pro-scene or so think/.....its like star something right?
On May 02 2008 16:54 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: PsychoTemplar, just letting you know , a big reason you may not be succesful as a map maker: you come off as a whiny faggot.
That's not a helpful quality when trying to get people to embrace your maps.
Sure, a lot of pro maps favor fast expansion style builds, but you do not always have to do fast expansion, or there's countless variations of the build and what the builds lead to, unlike always forcing fast sunkens, fast cannons, fast two rax marines into tanks w/ siege and so on like Waiting to Panic.
Fuck it. I want to address this specifically, because this is fucking bullshit. The 'variations' of build orders in pro StarCraft on promaps is generally non-existent. Zerg's will expand to their natural quickly every game, even if they 9 pool. The only reason Zerg's 9 pool like 30% or 40% of the time, is to let Terran's know they can't 14 CC every game, or Toss know they can't 13 Nexus every game (forcing them to send out a pretty early scout every game just to see if they can). In the one in five times a player will blindly do the riskiest version of a fast expansion, it's an easy steal for the Zerg, which makes it worth it. This isn't variety, this is just an imbalanced game of rock-paper-sissors in the first 2 minutes of StarCraft when your almost build order determines whether you're at an advantage, or a disadvantage before you've even scouted the enemy. The rest of the game, just like in any map you think 'forces' you to do a certain build, varies and is ultimately the fun part of the game (tactics, scouting). It's the same with cheese proxy 2 gate builds against Terrans and proxy 2rax against toss. The only reason they exist is to let the other player know that on the rare (maybe 1/6) games it happens, they're insta-losing if they expanded too aggressively (and while some players will do this anyway, especially in a match they didn't have enough time to practice for, it's bad for their overall record if they do it too often).
So, as a matter of fact, the variation in the times and types of first 4 buildings you build, are really not that dynamic in pro maps, and certainly not a beloved feature of the game. Aggressive builds punish greedy builds, greedy builds punish safe builds, safe builds punish aggressive builds. Scissors beats Paper, Paper beats Rock, Rock beats Scissors. Only difference in SC, is that Scissors and Paper might only happen 20% of the time, while 60% or more you're going Rock, because it gives you a fighting chance against everything, Wins you a big advantage rarely, scores you a disadvantage rarely, and mostly gives you an even fight.
Hahaha this proves you have no idea what you're talking about.
I'm done listening to you play the martyr. Tons of people are trying to help you and you're whining about how the community doesn't embrace you.
Edit: There's a saying in business: Don't burn your bridges. Well, you've pretty much torched all of yours, so good luck.
Diggurd, if you don't edit that post to not be advertising your map in my thread (seriously?), and make a new thread of your own, your map may mysteriously disappear from the database :o
EDIT: As a gesture of good will, I deleted all my posts that could be construed as whiny. I'm pretty much a mentally unstable person, and I'm sorry you had to deal with me Sorry, TL!
And now for something totally different, you could try to change the format of the announcement of maps. Like posting on different sites a small tourney (for MOTM or such) just for the sake of playing a new map. That way you'll get the replays of the game you want, you wont annoy people who aren't interested in new non-korean maps and you can a different take on your map than mappers do (who usually are the ones that comment on new maps). This will require, of course, to make the appropriate changes to the map that the players ask.
On May 03 2008 01:11 diggurd wrote: cool, now i can build mine over his. try this new and better ver. of backdooru, im sorry psych. chill has too many posts to disagree.
i wish ICCup would sponsor a fun amateur map like PGT did in season 9 when they used The Artist, that game produced some nice games, and for motivation to play it they had it giving 150% which i thnk is good
We should bring that shit back again. I'd petition it
Faoi is in ICCup, and has been a MOTW most weeks of the season =/
Also, I believe pgt's MOTS was 130, motw was 120.
For those of you suggesting hosting tournies with just amateur maps, who would come? gosugamers.net's Avaton Tournaments featured all regular maps and 2 bwm maps each time, and they were marginally successful. We just got so few replays from the tournament, because NastyMarine didn't want to make replay reporting compulsory. If a gg.net hosted tournament could only give us like 3 replays total, with very little to no feedback, what good could a tourney organized by the little guys do? =/
Alternatively, we could organize showmatches. Whistler beat White-Ra in a showmatch, on two bwm maps, but that just gave us a couple bad/short replays without feedback. Replays are nice, but specific feedback is often better. However, it's very hard to get players who are busy in TSL, iccup in general, the various clanleagues, etc, to take time to play on maps they don't know, especially maps which play radically different.
I don't want to randomly pm players and see if they're willing, anyone know a player who might be interested? We don't need great players, but the higher the skill the better.
About tournaments, who here would be interested in tournaments which had all amateur maps? The maps used wouldn't be beta maps, they'd be maps we were pretty sure about I assume oO What about a tournament using Waiting to Panic as opposed to normal standard maps? Hosting tourneys isn't hard, if there are enough players interested.
edit: Chill I think I have an idea which can help mediate the issue you're talking about, with being unable to safely fall back to a choke kind of thing, without damaging the map's concept. If my muse moves me I should be able to get it done soon, if ap test cramming doesn't get in the way.
I was thinking more like tournaments for people that dont play that competitively. Of course it wont be the best replay quality, but it's a start. Take for example clan ar, you could ask them how many people would be interested. I'm sure there are more clans like that willing to try different maps. For exmample, I have used for our games with some guys of a forum bwm.net maps for 3v3 because they are quite fun to play, better than hunters. Mostly used Eon Blue and Dune 2000 but also played on Inner Cloister and Snake Pit. If there's interest i could upload some reps to the site (though for 3v3 it doesnt matter much). We just don't use other maps because we dont focus much on competitive 1v1 (it's just for fun, all team games and UMS).
On May 03 2008 01:51 PsycHOTemplar wrote: Diggurd, if you don't edit that post to not be advertising your map in my thread (seriously?), and make a new thread of your own, your map may mysteriously disappear from the database :o
EDIT: As a gesture of good will, I deleted all my posts that could be construed as whiny. I'm pretty much a mentally unstable person, and I'm sorry you had to deal with me Sorry, TL!
Forgives me
regardless the replies, regardless quality or not of the map, regardless the arguments etc.. I wish every map maker presented their maps the way you did in the op. great OP
Hmm, I hope its ok for me up bump this. Waiting to panic is an awesome map, and I would love to see it in amateur tournies, just for small prizes. I don't know if its perfectly balanced now, or for high tier play, but its fun as hell and players can always over come imbalance, which is always present.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/647/wtp4if1.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/Waiting%20to%20Panick.jpg)
I thought the bagpipes were a nice change from Linkin Park and Nightwish.
). 
![[image loading]](http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7206/64424436xq7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/9173/48473836dh2.jpg)
. if anyone wanna game post/pm/whisper 'ggplaaaaaaaaaay'
