Are you Waiting to Panic? YOU WILL BE :O - Page 6

On May 02 2008 02:47 Chill wrote:
They're prettier, but there isn't more work put into them.

psychotemplar ill play vs you 10 games non stop if u wanted to ><

On May 02 2008 04:21 SpiritoftheTuna wrote:
i think faoi is a pretty cool guy, eh spams tl.net and doesnt afraid of anything

On May 02 2008 00:56 Chill wrote:


Look, you've obviously gone up against someone who doesn't agree with your position before. And it's going to keep happening in your life in the future.

In my eyes, as a map maker, you basically have a couple choices:
- You can accept that your map isn't going to to change the game, and be fine with it going vastly unplayed.
- You can complain that your map doesn't get played.
- You can promote the shit out of it and try to get exposure.

Now doing any of these doesn't mean people aren't going to call a spade a spade. So when I see you spamming the shit out of this forum, or our stream, do you expect me to go "tee hee, there's that silly Nightmarjoo again. Everyone go play his map."? I think your map is bland, imbalanced, and I find you promoting it extremely annoying. So that's what my comments are going to reflect. If I liked your map I would help you promote it but putting it on the show, but I don't, so I didnt.

That doesn't mean you should stop promoting it. Maybe it's difficult to tell how far you can push it, considering I have told you I find you annoying. Being annoying isn't doing anything wrong. Part of your job is to be as annoying promoting your map as possible to give it exposure. Part of my job as a moderator is to tell you whe you've crossed the line (with a warning/ban). That doesn't mean I can't still say personally I find your promotion annoying and I wish you would stop.

So don't try to play the martyr. I've found you personally annoying for months and you haven't even received a warning. "Wah Hot_Bid / Chill are going to nuke me". Well that's because you've done nothing for our community but spam your map for months. But that's the game map makers have to play if you truly believe in your map. Ask me the name of a foreign map made in the last two years and I can only answer Faoi.

On May 02 2008 03:44 Scorpion wrote:


What?
Doesn't making it prettier = having to put more work into it?
XD

Plus, to get the map known far and wide and/or at least popular is very hard to do as well. Look at what PsychoTemplar did, he got a commentator, made a thread with a banner, a hype video, and had to play a lot of games on it just to make it somewhat appealing. None of it pays out in the end since nobody will play it, we'll just bash it and go back to Longinus and Python.

You might say "Well, the Korean mappers have to take balance into consideration blah blah blah more time put into it than the foreigners", but, really, they can just label the map as "experimental [insert starcraft league here] map" and give it to the pros/semi pros and have them rape the shit out of every nook and cranny in the map and test it out. Then they add balance changes later on, once the map has been raped enough.

Foreign mappers have us... and we all pretty much just say the map sucks compared to [korean map] and will not play on it, which is what the creator wants really. In order to fix balance problems, people need to play on it and see what's up. If nobody plays on it, it's impossible to fix balance problems...

._.!

In other words, lost cause.

On May 02 2008 06:18 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
Played two games of TvZ with a more standard 9/10/13 build (which are uploaded), and it was much easier than when I was doing BBS. Obviously Alfgau isn't as good as Chill, but I don't know. Conflicting results are confusing, and I think with a dominant strategy, even people who aren't as good should be able to win with it (if I was able to beat Chill, it would make sense that a strat is dominant, but him beating me doesn't prove that much to me). *Prepares to hear comments about how stubborn I am*

All I'm saying is I want more testing.

On May 02 2008 06:51 Chill wrote:


What did he do? I'd imagine 7 Pool -> Sunken would still crush 9/10.

I'd advise all Zergs when playing against Terran to try 7 Pool -> Sunken and see what your win rate is like. If he blocks you Sunkening his minerals, Sunken his arch, use the Zerglings to defend it until it's a Sunken, then kill the SCV, then Sunken his minerals and play normally.

What did he do? I'd imagine 7 Pool -> Sunken would still crush 9/10.

I'd advise all Zergs when playing against Terran to try 7 Pool -> Sunken and see what your win rate is like. If he blocks you Sunkening his minerals, Sunken his arch, use the Zerglings to defend it until it's a Sunken, then kill the SCV, then Sunken his minerals and play normally.

On May 02 2008 06:42 Nightmarjoo wrote:


I don't mind you telling me to stop spamming, that's your job, and I said I'd stop spamming before I crossed a line. I'm sorry I've become annoying; I think all the faoi hate is what prompted me to spam the map more. I think my approach to promotion has simply been wrong, but being a mapper isn't easy. Look at templar, he's got 6 pages of comments mostly saying they like the map, but few reps are appearing for it outside of the ones he himself played. I got the stupid map into iccup and as far as I know no one plays the map. The version in iccup imo sucks, but yello-ant won't put the much improved version in. The map has been called bad, but no one will tell me why, no one will play it, I see games on it on iccup every now and then but no replays show up when I ask for them. There just is a brick wall in front of all foreign mappers, one that seemingly didn't exist (or atleast that wall had some cracks) during pgt.

As for foreign maps made in the last two years, Artist, Nazca, Arena, Sattarchasm, Shine, Calypso, Survivor, On The Rocks, Technetium, Osom, Trench Warfare, Sleeping Sun, Nightlight, King of the Abyss, Crusader, Roads to Antiga Prime, Thunder, Cryptic Island, Fallen Matrix, Kingdom of Zerus, River of Gods, Mars Attacks, White Lies, Regnum Noctis, Aphrodite, Gotterdammerung, Dirz, Kingdom of Aruga, Goddess of Day, Amistad, Space River, Rubi, Avatar, Undying Lands, Taklamakan, FeedSomebodySSoul, Jericho, Angband 3600 ft 1.2, Dreamcatcher, Scope Lens, Morris Plains, Memory Cell, along with many MOTWs and MOTMs from bwm have all been used in some league or tournament or another, some lucky enough to get into iccup, wgt, and/or pgt. Some are maybe three years old at most, most are within the last two years.

My point is just that I wish the foreign community's power, the sites, were more friendly towards the foreign mapping community. This does NOT necessarily mean putting maps into TLA or TSL just for the hell of it, but it could include perhaps helping the mappers (who usually lack good connections) organize showmatches, not calling mappers annoying (public figures are often expected to display restraint when it comes to voicing their opinions, as they are so influencial) even if you think it's true (there's a difference from telling Nightmarjoo he should stop spamming as it is disruptive and unproductive to the site and telling Nightmarjoo he's annoying, which means everyone who doesn't know Nightmarjoo or Faoi automatically connects both with annoyance upon seeing your post).

I see your side of course, and will drastically reconsider my approach to attempting to promote my personal map, and the maps of others.

Oh and, you said you think Faoi is bland and imbalanced? I understand bland in that conceptually it's pretty similar to many of the standard maps (this done on purpose, in an attempt to make a map more player while making something different, to try and make players more likely to play on it), but I'd like to know what you think is imbalanced about this. I really get absolutely no feedback on the map, despite some initial concerns which I believe I have addressed in my edits, so anything you can say is helpful.





I can tell you, the pro mappers definitely put a LOT more time and work into their maps. While making, testing, and modifying a map can take a couple weeks to create a "final" product at the foreign level, the korean pro mappers can spend MONTHS tweaking and testing their maps. The testing process can be a little easier for them because they have good connections, but they still spend way more work on their maps to get them into the final product the pros play on the big screen.

I'd have to disagree with you on the "lost cause" aspect. I see what you're saying, but bare in mind that pgt's MOTS came from broodwarmaps.net, and many people played on that map daily.

As for the "prettier" thing, foreign mappers try to address all the little complaints people have about the pro maps (this concept is a little dated as korean mappers have changed their outlook on mapping), eg. visual aesthetics, positional imbalance, and other things, in an attempt to make their maps stand out and give players a reason to play on them.

Templar will always have trouble getting a map like Waiting to Panic played, it's just superficially so radically different than the modern map that players would be afraid to play it. During the age of Bifrost the map would probably be well-received ._.
Though imo the map really isn't that different, it keeps a lot of the macro orientation, but creates a very micro-friendly environment players seem to notice first.



edit: templar I can play the map with you if you want, or you can put me against someone else on the map, etc.