PvZ dilema :
Ok zerg opens with 9 pool speed or overpool speed.
Protoss cannot defend the mid, since the buildings can be destroyed, cannot rush, cannot cannon rush.
Protoss becomes sunkened -> 5 minerals only to mine from.

Protoss must go forge and cannons since there in no choke and will have to make cannon near nexus.
Protoss cannot FE since there is 2 ways to go to main.

-> weak eco, passive toss;
zerg now can take expo and go 2-3 hatch hydras to win easily

phase

United States399 Posts

April 27 2008 23:48 GMT

#43

man, i really love this concept. If people play it, and balance gets resolved, I would love to see this played by the pros.

Chef

10810 Posts

April 27 2008 23:52 GMT

#44

Depends on how you opened. If I opened two gate, and saw that, that's basically the Zerg saying he's hinging everything on his lings. Take Zealots + half your probes, and counter.

If I opened Gate forge, I'd try to turtle and expo, maybe even pressure with cannons in min line for defence, and offensive cannon + zealot on offence.

If I opened tech (as I probably would NOT do vs Zerg), I'd hope to get my DT out fast enough that I can still find holes in Z defence.

Also, if you see the colony in time, and it's not accompanied by lings, you can just send out probes to kill it before it finishes morphing.

Only many games will tell if it's too hard, but so far I've played equal numbers of games with zerg winning over toss, and toss winning over zerg.

Lemonwalrus

United States5465 Posts

April 28 2008 00:02 GMT

#45

Haha, this is the one that you sent me as your other submission to the competition if the first one didn't work out, right?

I just remember playing the comp to see the layout of the map and spending like 30 minutes trying to kill a dead zerg comp because it had build a spawning pool in the center of the map for some reason.

zobz

Canada2175 Posts

April 28 2008 00:26 GMT

#46

That commentary really is horrible.

Kwidowmaker

Canada978 Posts

April 28 2008 01:38 GMT

#47

Lemonwalrus, that got me thinking, proxy zerg tech?

Chef

10810 Posts

April 28 2008 01:55 GMT

#48

Hiding your tech in the centre of the map probably isn't the smartest of things to do.

Kwidowmaker

Canada978 Posts

April 28 2008 02:01 GMT

#49

Obviously you haven't played against me.

Seriously though, couldn't a spire fit undetected in the top left if you were blue, or bottom right if you were red?

Nightmarjoo

United States3360 Posts

April 28 2008 02:34 GMT

#50

This map is kind of crazy, but from my experience on the map (templar will disagree with me), you can play the map pretty normally, if cautiously. I think players who try weird rushes will often find they sacrifice too much in doing it. Many types of "instant win rushes" you think will work, can't work, because of the two entrance aspect of the mains, and the fact that you can hide expos relatively easy.

Dazed.

Canada3301 Posts

April 28 2008 02:42 GMT

#51

This looks very very fun. I hope ICCUP picks it up for the next season, or that I come across it at least once. I am tired of Python and other standard maps like that. It kind of gets stale, no?

chamois

Canada21 Posts

April 28 2008 02:56 GMT

#52

I was liking this until I watched the lastshadow commentary now not only do i now have an irrational hatred for all starcraft maps, i also hate nautical and road maps

Chef

10810 Posts

April 28 2008 02:59 GMT

#53

Except that the commentary wasn't by LastShadow o.o

Equinox_kr

United States7395 Posts

April 28 2008 03:00 GMT

#54

ROFL NICE!

SayaSP

Laos5494 Posts

April 28 2008 03:47 GMT

#55

On April 28 2008 11:56 chamois wrote:
I was liking this until I watched the lastshadow commentary now not only do i now have an irrational hatred for all starcraft maps, i also hate nautical and road maps

what?

Equinox_kr

United States7395 Posts

April 28 2008 03:49 GMT

#56

On April 28 2008 12:47 SayaSP wrote:

Show nested quote +

what?

I had no idea, either

LastWish

2015 Posts

April 28 2008 09:19 GMT

#57

Thinking of it again.... probably sending and early worker to block enemy's control(dwebbed entrance) over mid would be required in most matchups.

Would want to play some games on it to test it but with who? a where?

Bub

United States3518 Posts

April 28 2008 14:43 GMT

#58

Sweet, I love maps like this. There needs to be more of this tilesets in the pros. Bored of jungle, space, etc.

PePe QuiCoSE

Argentina1204 Posts

April 28 2008 14:49 GMT

#59

sorry if it was mentioned before, but can cannons shoot lings if they are attacking the double generator ramp in main? Or the don't have vision?
If they don't, i can't see how a P can hold off a good Z. Say, 9 pool, sunk rush (P has half economy - could also sunk the choke to the creep in the middle) and then Z can open another entrance to P's main. Hydras or lurkers on min line will ensue.
If they do attack, P does get half economy but can somewhat get a FE. Susceptible to a lurk on cliff or muta harass. Maybe a cannon should be able to fit there, specially since the gas is the most exposed.
A safer 9 pool approach: sunk the dweb choke and put lings there so that zealots can't attack that and afterwards sunk the min line.

I'm not sure of all this since i haven't played on the map (no time really) but when Z has even more options against P early game, it makes me weep

Chill

Calgary26003 Posts

April 28 2008 15:07 GMT

#60

Questions:
-With the doodads behind the minerals, you can jump a Drone over?
-Assuming the base is closed (the map's original form), when I move a unit from my base to his, which path does it take?
-Assuming the map is compeletely opened, when I move a unit from my base to his, which path does it take?

Issues:
-I know you really want to believe a Sunken rush isn't imbalanced, but I can't see any race living it. If I 9 Pool and send two Drones, you're fucked. My first Drone builds a Sunken behind your minerals, and the second sits under the arch by the Disruption Web. Terran can't get through until Marines are out (due to the Disruption Web blocking melee attacks), and Protoss can't get out until they kill a generator. You can't simply "let it go" because you need to run around the entire map and kill another 800 HP generator to get to me. Plus you're mining off 4 patches, so I don't even need to expand.
-This is going to be an issue all game. My Mutas are out, and you return home to defend, putting up Turrets. Oh whoops, I made 2 Sunkens back there while harassing and now you're fucked.

Why does the creep need to extend right to the minerals? Can't you have that creep go everywhere but make the area behind the minerals unbuildable? Why does there have to be creep back there in the first place?

I know you say it's not an issue, but I can't get over it. It seems to be a huge issue to me. When you say "there are two entrances" you neglect to mention you need to run more than an entire map width and kill a building to take the alternate route.