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TMNT
3118 Posts
Most don't embrace the concept of making points and counter points. Some don't follow the basic rules of logic. Some just argue against a strawman argument. A few simply can't collect or use the right facts in the first place. But the worst kind just put in one-liners asserting their belief without justification, and sometimes even telling others they don't know anything, which is essentially the equivalent of jerking off. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 13 2025 23:45 TMNT wrote: Most TL users aren't great in debate though. Most don't embrace the concept of making points and counter points. Some don't follow the basic rules of logic. Some just argue against a strawman argument. A few simply can't collect or use the right facts in the first place. But the worst kind just put in one-liners asserting their belief without justification, and sometimes even telling others they don't know anything, which is essentially the equivalent of jerking off. you think your points are good? cherry picking what you want, to support your emotions about games, mostly snow losing against zerg in offline asl, and ignoring everything else? seriously what balance change you want to make? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 01:06 Soft_General_5023 wrote: you think your points are good? cherry picking what you want, to support your emotions about games, mostly snow losing against zerg in offline asl, and ignoring everything else? seriously what balance change you want to make? That is 100% not the case. In fact the way you present your argument here definitely fits my description above. All are your own conclusions/beliefs. There is absolutely no justifications/evidences to prove that I am cherry picking or ignoring everything else. Like if you want to prove I'm cherry picking, quote the relevant part, explain why this is not correct. No you're not doing it. Very few are doing it (backing up their arguments with proofs and explanation) . For example, in the last page when Kraekling presented the win rates of Snow and Soma as 40 and 63%. I refuted by pointing out how they are the wrong stats to use, and presented the right ones. In that case, maybe the accusation of cherry picking may apply (to Kraekling). | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 13 2025 23:45 TMNT wrote: As opposed to the TMNT route which is to freak out and insult everyone. An inspiration! Most TL users aren't great in debate though. Most don't embrace the concept of making points and counter points. Some don't follow the basic rules of logic. Some just argue against a strawman argument. A few simply can't collect or use the right facts in the first place. But the worst kind just put in one-liners asserting their belief without justification, and sometimes even telling others they don't know anything, which is essentially the equivalent of jerking off. On November 14 2025 01:06 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Dont forget raging like a preteen!you think your points are good? cherry picking what you want, to support your emotions about games, mostly snow losing against zerg in offline asl, and ignoring everything else? seriously what balance change you want to make? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 01:42 Ze'ev wrote: As opposed to the TMNT route which is to freak out and insult everyone. An inspiration! Dont forget raging like a preteen! You can't find a rage post from me in my entire posting history. But thanks for proving my point. You just put yourself in the worst category. Kind of madness that a user who consistently argues with critical thinking, presents accurate information, even provides visual evidences,... are met with such hostility. No one has provided counter arguments to the points made in posts #21 29 32 46 49. Yet false accusations or insults like post #62 and 64, or some sarcastic memes seem suffice. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 12 2025 06:33 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: In fact he destroyed Soma today and Soma played the 20 tricks and optimizations all he wanted but SNow basically made the perfect read. Btw hey eon I didn't understand what game you were referring to here but now I saw it as the KCM game. So in this game Soma dropped a Hydra Den right in front of Snow's eyes, but he also had Lair, then added more Hatch and Evo and looks like he was just about to play a macro game. Snow's reponse was to play a standard game and ignore the thread of Hydra bust, with only 2 Cannons built in front. And he destroyed Soma just by a simple Sair Speedlot rush (because Soma committed to too many things and couldn't afford the necessary defence). Also didn't help Soma that he expanded towards Snow's direction so the initial Zealot pressures did more damage than it should. So what did he read and how did he read here? Or in another timeline Soma could just decide to carry on with the Hydra bust and killed Snow? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
And the Soma vs Snow game wasnt even the most interesting shit i was talking about. Jaedong vs Snow was even more fascinating. Specially if you check Jaedong stream to see post game analysis. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 07:03 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Snow made gateway first then delayed his scouting until very late. He never actually scouted Soma natural but sent 3 zealots to the second hatchery. He played with incompleted information till corsair but delayed his assimilator at the natural to get a faster citadel with zealot speed timing to counter Soma hydras. Im not sure how Soma commited to many things is good here. But then when he does it in a game where he wins it turn out into AH How protoss can know ahh he made spire den at the same time etc. But well. Your skill is dogshit so i can excuse those. I actually understood that well with the queen vs shuttle game. The interesting bit is that you are extremely critical about a zerg losing but never about a protoss. Do you realized that ? We never look at mistakes. We never found blunders. What we do is excuse them as the matchup being imbalanced. And the Soma vs Snow game wasnt even the most interesting shit i was talking about. Jaedong vs Snow was even more fascinating. Specially if you check Jaedong stream to see post game analysis. You understand that in every sport and e-sport out there, there are coaches whose skills are inferior to the players, and on top of that there are also analysts who neither coach nor play, but when it comes to understanding and analysing of the game they are second to none right? Keep talking to yourself that my skill is dogshit is, like I said, just your way of jerking off to the idea that your argument is any better than mine. Notice that when it comes to Bonyth who sides with my argument, you can't play the same card lmao. Also madness that you are still talking about that Shuttle vs Queen game as if I'm the only one who says Queen threw the game. Not just your average TLers, all the fucking pros watching that game said the same thing. I guess their skills are dogshit too? But, move on to the main point. So you're saying you can't explain how Snow "made the perfect read" there? As I don't see it anywhere in your post? Reminder that I want to know how he came to that decision of not building more cannons and go for the sair speedlot timing, not a mere description of what he did (which is what you wrote) (note that I already have an idea of why he did it , but just want to hear your analysis first) | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
565 Posts
On November 13 2025 23:45 TMNT wrote: Most TL users aren't great in debate though. Most don't embrace the concept of making points and counter points. Some don't follow the basic rules of logic. Some just argue against a strawman argument. A few simply can't collect or use the right facts in the first place. But the worst kind just put in one-liners asserting their belief without justification, and sometimes even telling others they don't know anything, which is essentially the equivalent of jerking off. step away from computer and take a walk you are very angry at the moment and ruining this thread | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 14 2025 01:37 TMNT wrote: I refuted by pointing out how they are the wrong stats to use you decide alone what stats are "right", everyrhing else is wrong seriously what balance change you want to make? | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4235 Posts
On November 13 2025 23:45 TMNT wrote: Most TL users aren't great in debate though. Most don't embrace the concept of making points and counter points. Some don't follow the basic rules of logic. Some just argue against a strawman argument. A few simply can't collect or use the right facts in the first place. But the worst kind just put in one-liners asserting their belief without justification, and sometimes even telling others they don't know anything, which is essentially the equivalent of jerking off. Bro, I really admire your tenacity in trying to have a fact based conversation around this topic, but you are wasting your time and energy here. You will achieve nothing, but not because you don't have a point or because you are arguing your point incorrectly.. but because people to whom you're trying to make the point to don't want to listen. It's just that simple. There can't be anything wrong with Brood War, because Brood War is as close to a "perfect game" that there can be, don't you know? So all the stats and analysis in the world will not convince anyone that does not want to be convinced. No matter what you will say, this is a battle already lost. Unfortunately. It is what it is. Have a good one, nonetheless. Cheers  | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 14 2025 09:44 TMNT wrote: You understand that in every sport and e-sport out there, there are coaches whose skills are inferior to the players, and on top of that there are also analysts who neither coach nor play, but when it comes to understanding and analysing of the game they are second to none right? Keep talking to yourself that my skill is dogshit is, like I said, just your way of jerking off to the idea that your argument is any better than mine. Notice that when it comes to Bonyth who sides with my argument, you can't play the same card lmao. Also madness that you are still talking about that Shuttle vs Queen game as if I'm the only one who says Queen threw the game. Not just your average TLers, all the fucking pros watching that game said the same thing. I guess their skills are dogshit too? But, move on to the main point. So you're saying you can't explain how Snow "made the perfect read" there? As I don't see it anywhere in your post? Reminder that I want to know how he came to that decision of not building more cannons and go for the sair speedlot timing, not a mere description of what he did (which is what you wrote) (note that I already have an idea of why he did it , but just want to hear your analysis first) If i understood correctly you consider yourself a very high analytical person that never played the game or got any kind of foot on it. And Then i should respect your opinion cuz you take the stats that matter to you. For example only picking Finals as stats. You and bonyth Do that shit aswell. Protoss beat zerg very well before finals in the same sets of but for some reason we only focus on Finals. huh ? If you dont understand build orders and strategy behind such build orders how are you supossed to understand deep whats going on ? But i found interesting that you claim to understand when zerg loses but u dont when toss doesnt. I mean when zerg loses is mostly cuz he played bad lmao. Is not like you giving a real explanation of a game. Is mostly just a bot saying. HYDRASS GOOOD. And there is nothing wrong with that btw if you act like a casual. The problem is when you and Peaano act like you know shit about the game. I think with Bonyth there is not much to tell since mostly what he does is giving Stork quotes from a jinjinn video that is mostly trolls. But for some reason you take it very serious. Is funny u mention the pros about the queen shuttle when then Snow comes with a video and says my performance was shit nothing to do with balance. Then you dont believe him. And Now we both know you are not agreeing with FlaSh either. Cuz it doesnt help your narrative. You know TMNT Splinter was the sensei cuz he had very high combat skills himself think about that. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 14 2025 17:06 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Bro, I really admire your tenacity in trying to have a fact based conversation around this topic, but you are wasting your time and energy here. You will achieve nothing, but not because you don't have a point or because you are arguing your point incorrectly.. but because people to whom you're trying to make the point to don't want to listen. It's just that simple. There can't be anything wrong with Brood War, because Brood War is as close to a "perfect game" that there can be, don't you know? So all the stats and analysis in the world will not convince anyone that does not want to be convinced. No matter what you will say, this is a battle already lost. Unfortunately. It is what it is. Have a good one, nonetheless. Cheers In a perfect world we wouldnt get negative posts from you all the time you open your mouth. But here we are dont we shocker ? xD Remember when you got banned from that WC3 community cuz you annoyed the organizer with your complains ? This is not an attack to you. But you should be carefull before thinking too high about yourself. | ||
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SCRVN
135 Posts
On November 14 2025 17:06 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Brood War is as close to a "perfect game" that there can be It means Protoss is the weakest race and PvZ is "a bit" unbalanced matchup! People can explain why a game, a series, a Protoss player lose in PvZ but no one can explain why 100% stats show Protoss is the weakest race in more 25 years. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 14:46 Soft_General_5023 wrote: you decide alone what stats are "right", everyrhing else is wrong seriously what balance change you want to make? No I don't decide which one is right. Logic dictates which stats should be used (and I already explained why the stats he used were not correct ones to apply). I can't believe that has to be explained to a person. If I tell you humans need oxygen to stay alive does that sound to you that I just decide that principle? Re balance changes I stated many times it has to be done via maps. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 17:06 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Bro, I really admire your tenacity in trying to have a fact based conversation around this topic, but you are wasting your time and energy here. You will achieve nothing, but not because you don't have a point or because you are arguing your point incorrectly.. but because people to whom you're trying to make the point to don't want to listen. It's just that simple. There can't be anything wrong with Brood War, because Brood War is as close to a "perfect game" that there can be, don't you know? So all the stats and analysis in the world will not convince anyone that does not want to be convinced. No matter what you will say, this is a battle already lost. Unfortunately. It is what it is. Have a good one, nonetheless. Cheers Don't worry I'm totally aware of that. There has never been a person on the internet who is convinced by another person on the internet over a debate (exaggeration of course but you know what it means). It's just kind of my pastime. Also there's the hope that neutral readers may pick up useful information and people who side with us can see the evidences clearer for themselves. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 17:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: If i understood correctly you consider yourself a very high analytical person that never played the game or got any kind of foot on it. And Then i should respect your opinion cuz you take the stats that matter to you. For example only picking Finals as stats. You and bonyth Do that shit aswell. Protoss beat zerg very well before finals in the same sets of but for some reason we only focus on Finals. huh ? If you dont understand build orders and strategy behind such build orders how are you supossed to understand deep whats going on ? But i found interesting that you claim to understand when zerg loses but u dont when toss doesnt. I mean when zerg loses is mostly cuz he played bad lmao. Is not like you giving a real explanation of a game. Is mostly just a bot saying. HYDRASS GOOOD. And there is nothing wrong with that btw if you act like a casual. The problem is when you and Peaano act like you know shit about the game. I think with Bonyth there is not much to tell since mostly what he does is giving Stork quotes from a jinjinn video that is mostly trolls. But for some reason you take it very serious. Is funny u mention the pros about the queen shuttle when then Snow comes with a video and says my performance was shit nothing to do with balance. Then you dont believe him. And Now we both know you are not agreeing with FlaSh either. Cuz it doesnt help your narrative. You know TMNT Splinter was the sensei cuz he had very high combat skills himself think about that. Don't be such a stupid arguer eon. If you want to argue, you always have to do two things: get facts right and respond to the points the others actually make. Instead, what you do most of the times are: get facts wrong, and respond to a misinterpreted version of what the others say (or totally focus on something else). It makes talking to you very unpleasant and the conversation keeps digressing. You may not intend to but that makes you become like a troll. I shouldn't bring him here anyway, but Bonyth has said several times on this board that P is the weakest race at the top level, let alone weaker compared to Z. Let's not act like all he does is posting Stork's video lol. The point about finals stats. No it's not the only thing we focus on. Notice there's the global, lifetime stats that show Z is favored too? Which in your existence you have never addressed. The finals stats are just the more visible one, easier to demonstrate the point. And why don't we look at stats before finals you asked? We do. That's the fucking global progaming stats right there for you. There are also ladder stats if you prefer S rank level analysis. Also, let me explain this to you like for a 10 year old: just because some Ps beat some Zs Ro4 8 16 or 24 doesn't mean you can use that to disprove everything else that shows Z>P. The imbalances are not that huge that no P can ever beat a Z, okay? Tier 1 Ps will always beat tier 2 Zs and vice versa. That's what happens in earlier rounds and that's exactly how the overall win rate of any matchup is always close to, but not quite, 50%. Snow and Bisu (best P at the moment) beating Effort and Larva (both hovering around K League and the low end of Major Proleague) should not indicate anything about balance if you just look at the results and not the gameplay. Now, I literally said in post #21 that Flash's probably right in a general sense, but I disagree with some specific points in the video. In the same post, and a few others, I also acknowledged what Snow messed up in that game (his sim city). I always acknowledge when Protoss loss fair and square (like the Knockout game in the finals). I'm very specific about details and never make bot-like rage posts "hydras good protoss bad" like you describe. If you accuse someone of something, show some fucking evidences. Otherwise you're full of shit. Snow's video is him being critical of himself and not wanting to blame balance for his loss. It's a far more vague concept than assessing the state of a game, as the Shuttle vs Queen video is the real time reactions of their colleagues watching that game. Are you fucking telling me that every single one of them is wrong in thinking Queen was ahead in that game?Not one pro can have a correct read of who's ahead in a PvZ. Not one Korean viewer or TL user either. Only you? Explain that please. And for the million times, don't dodge the question. Please, answer how Snow "made the perfect read" in the KCM S4W2 game above. Because no amount of bullshit you throw here can allow you to chicken out from that. Remember, you have to prove your points by merits. Not by thinking highly of yourself and considering everyone else just knows shit. That's just you jerking off in front of your PC screen. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 14 2025 19:01 TMNT wrote: No I don't decide which one is right. Logic dictates which stats should be used (and I already explained why the stats he used were not correct ones to apply). I can't believe that has to be explained to a person. If I tell you humans need oxygen to stay alive does that sound to you that I just decide that principle? Re balance changes I stated many times it has to be done via maps. So what do you consider balanced maps in pvz? Blitz Y  ? Knockout trench was meant to reduce hydra bust. Is that balanced?In last 2 ASLs we had 2 Protosses in semifinals, this season very nearly PvP finals, be it Bisu not misclicked last game. most ZvP wins were very close 4:3 or so But yeah, ZvP is imba LoL Your favourite Snow loses beacause he played badly, as he himself admitted but you don't believe him and keep saying it was ZvP imba Artosis's pusagi rants are at least funny, and he is an A rank player. "Basement dwellers on TeamLiquid looking like academic journalists" LoL | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
Hmm, what could be the reason? Either (1) it's almost as if one matchup is easier than the other, which suggests imbalances in both matchups, and T>Z and Z>P or (2) no, ZvP is not imba, Z players are just better, but in that case, it means either Ts are just better than Zs too (how come?), or Z=P but T>Z (oh the double standard) It's almost as if anyone who tries to deny ZvP imbalance is just throwing logics out of the window. | ||
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