EPTFlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle - Page 11
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
Total series from Ro8 in ASL history (counting Vants starleague ) Zerg vs Protoss 26-22 Take in Mind Soulkey kinda destroyed the stats Take in Mind there was a season were the maps were extremely bad for zerg and not many zergs made it to Ro8. Funny enough that season the only zvp win is a third place match between Hero vs Mini haha.. I guess those stats scream imbalanced. | ||
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SCRVN
135 Posts
In 2025, I think 99% of Terran players have TvZ better than TvP; 99% of Zerg players have ZvP better than ZvT; 99% of Protoss players have PvT better than PvZ at all level. In 2050, if StarCraft will be still alive, I guess that 99% of Terran players have TvZ better than TvP; 99% of Zerg players have ZvP better than ZvT; 99% of Protoss players have PvT better than PvZ at all level. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 18 2025 14:31 jinjin5000 wrote: :^) Jinjin, you're to blame as you translated Snow's video saying he lost because he played badly, and Flash confirming it. Yet apparently it does not matter  Game is still fun to watch balanced or not. Thanks for the translation. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 18 2025 04:35 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Bisu is currently equal or better to top zergs, Snow online as well. Why he performs worse offline/ASL ask him. IMO Bisu is best PvZ right now. Soma is best ZvP. Soulkey is AWOL. In ASL just last month Bisu lost in last game to unfortunate misclick to ling all in. Snow lost with uninspiring performance. Just few days ago Bisu won easily vs Soma in sponsored BO7. To me at top level right now ZvP is balanced good enough. Whatever the word "balance" means to you. I also keep track of the undocumented sponsor sets that the chinese organize but arent added to eloboard. Soma has played Bisu and SnOw multiple times since ASL ended. SnOw has about the same score. I can check later what the exact score and series count is. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 18:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: So you just said there is no difference in A group stage where players need to prepare for different players in the same day compared to a brack where u put all effort to prepare for 1 player in multiple maps. I think we just solved one of the big issues with your game understanding. Great news TMNT. Ah, same old eon. Incapable of responding to my argument. Pretend like you don't see anything. Keep repeating your rhetoric. It's literally written in my post that: Preparation may be different, but for the purpose of collecting data, all games are considered equal. Is there a game they can afford to lose lol? Plus, how does difference in preparation justify the removal of games in the group stage but not bracket stage? Does that mean Protoss win more or Zerg win more in group stage than bracket? Are games in group stage worthless? Last I check if you don't win in Ro16 you can't enter Ro8 lol. Can you elaborate? Then after that, verify your hypothesis with actual data (as if games in Ro16 skew the data in either way)? No you can't. You're just throwing shit into the conversation. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
That said your argument shifted with this new vision and now this means that Protoss cant beat zerg even in bo3. Honestly that is perfect for me. You either proved the imbalanced or you are just a clown. The reality is that zerg vs protoss from the Ro8 in ASL score is : Zerg vs Protoss 26-22 . is zerg leading ? for sure. But is zerg unbeatable like the number of champinships claim ? Nope. Is selective data manipulation by the protoss Cult. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 18:34 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Btw i did the work. Total series from Ro8 in ASL history (counting Vants starleague ) Zerg vs Protoss 26-22 Take in Mind Soulkey kinda destroyed the stats Take in Mind there was a season were the maps were extremely bad for zerg and not many zergs made it to Ro8. Funny enough that season the only zvp win is a third place match between Hero vs Mini haha.. I guess those stats scream imbalanced. Yes you manipulated the data. Nice. As said in my previous post, you have to do top 4 vs top 4, or top 5 vs top 5 only. But of course you ignored it. To explain to you like a 10 year old: let's say Dewalt were actually a Zerg player who were as good as Bonyth, so their head to head would be 50/50 (we don't care about balance here in this hypothetical situation) and the PvZ win rate would be 50%. Now throw you into the Zerg side but on the Protoss side there were still only Bonyth. Suddenly the PvZ win rate became 75% because Bonyth would beat you all the time but Dewalt only 50% of the time. You point to that and scream PvZ imba. But the data was skewed because you don't use the same population size for each race. When you work with such small sample sizes you have to control your groups carefully. There were 4 times a Protoss outside of top 5 entered the Ro8. There were 14 times for Zerg. So there's more chance for a top 5 P to beat an outside of top 5 Z than the reverse case. That's why when you do top 5 vs top 5 the score is 12-20 but when you include the whole population the score is 22-26. Compared to top 4 vs top 4, then top 3 vs top 3, don't you notice the more we increase the size the better it looks for Protoss? That's because as we increase the population, there are more lower tier Zergs for Protoss to beat to even out the stats. Actually when we talk about the global win rate of any matchup, we kinda accept this skewing of the data (mainly because it's difficult to refine it) but it's kinda more acceptable because global win rate = huge sample size. Not tiny like this case. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 20:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: We are arguing that Protoss cant never beat zerg in a Final. So what is the difference from Ro8 to the Final then. WHy protoss can beat zerg every round but the FInal. Because the Zergs in other rounds are not always as strong as the Zergs in the finals lol. Refer to my post above for more explanation. I'll give you another example: Bisu is the no.1 PvZ. So realitiscally he's only afraid of the top 3 Zergs for example. From top 4 and below he can overcome the matchup imbalance to beat them with skills. If he's given a run of Sacsri (Ro16), Action (Ro8) and Larva (Ro4), he'd beat them all. Does that already answer your question about why Protoss can beat Zerg in every round? Then in the finals Bisu meets either Soulkey, Soma or Hero where the skill gap is not that big for him to easily overcome the matchup imbalance. That's why you have to balance your data selection. Same size of group for each race okay? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 20:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: There is bo1 in the mix. There are more opportunities to try stuff cuz you are not eliminated right away. Also I have to single this bit out as it's incredibly stupid lol. For a guy talking so much about skill and understanding of the game =) "You're not eliminated right away" lmao You're closer to being eliminated if you lose a map in Ro24 than you are in Ro8. And that's not even counting the fact that the shame that comes with being eliminated in Ro24 is much bigger lol. And yes historically the best players try stuff more in group stage Bo1s against weaker players that they can easily beat with standard play =) You're trying to twist reality so hard you end up making a clown of yourself. See people, this is what happens when you're more concerned with a personal agenda against another person rather than thinking with your brain to find the truth. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1109 Posts
Enough please | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
565 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3119 Posts
On November 18 2025 22:44 TornadoSteve wrote: Boring&pathetic. Enough please On November 19 2025 01:15 CHEONSOYUN wrote: yes please stop posting and go outside Music. IDK why TMNT routinely turns these threads into his personal text chain as if we're meant to be an eager audience to these unending arguments that have no good outcomes. Like I get that forum discourse has a ceiling but idk why it has to be brought down to ankle height. Like if you truly cared that much about the state of the game (enough to bring it up in every thread), there's so much you could say and do to open up the discussion and include people instead of making them want to throw you into solitary confinement with a bag over your head. Like hey I drew some shit on a tileset that I think would help against hydra busts, or hey here's my map idea, or my silly patch notes. Instead we're just frothing at the mouth like that guy in The Fugitive who pretends to have a seizure so he can escape, in that bus/train scene. Like when he bends over and puts the tablet in his mouth and starts convulsing cottage cheese. Anyways that guy immediately gets shot in the chest with a shotgun. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland595 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 19 2025 18:56 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: does anyone still know where the thread is with the winrates based on gametime per match up? i think u are talking about the thread showed on this video ? apparently is a kraekling thread. | ||
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rotta
5599 Posts
On November 19 2025 18:56 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: does anyone still know where the thread is with the winrates based on gametime per match up? https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617209-data-analysis-on-8-million-games https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617591-lots-of-stats-from-the-asl-ksl-era-of-pro-broodwar | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On October 11 2023 07:16 Kraekkling wrote: Influence by level of play based on MMR. Here, MMR data is used to examine the balance. A match-mmr is determined by taking the average MMR of the two players (initial MMR values before the match was played). Several brackets of games are defined and compared. Additionally, a requirement is imposed on the max difference of player MMR, to ensure only games of a meaningful skill difference are taken into account. For example, in red are games with - match-mmr below 1800, and difference of MMR of both player is below 200 The requirements are somewhat loosened as games of higher level are examined, as can be seen in the labels. Take note of the big error bars in some of the brackets in the later stages of the game; that is don't draw too many conclusions from those data points. PvT+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/nmZ06cJ/racial-win-rate-vs-time-pvt-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png) The game balance is even at an MMR above 1800 and tils slowly towards Terran the higher we go. At the highest level the matchup is roughly 52% in Terrans favour. PvZ+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/Qb40CXm/racial-win-rate-vs-time-pvz-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png) Protoss is behind in all brackets and gets dominated at the highest levels where they achieve an overall win rate of 46%. TvZ+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/RCDHCv2/racial-win-rate-vs-time-tvz-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png) Again we see a clear trend where the matchup becomes more favoured towards Terran as player skill increases. It looks like high-level Zerg vs Terran is the hardest matchup in broodwar. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 19 2025 15:01 RogerChillingworth wrote: Music. IDK why TMNT routinely turns these threads into his personal text chain as if we're meant to be an eager audience to these unending arguments that have no good outcomes. Like I get that forum discourse has a ceiling but idk why it has to be brought down to ankle height. Like if you truly cared that much about the state of the game (enough to bring it up in every thread), there's so much you could say and do to open up the discussion and include people instead of making them want to throw you into solitary confinement with a bag over your head. Like hey I drew some shit on a tileset that I think would help against hydra busts, or hey here's my map idea, or my silly patch notes. Instead we're just frothing at the mouth like that guy in The Fugitive who pretends to have a seizure so he can escape, in that bus/train scene. Like when he bends over and puts the tablet in his mouth and starts convulsing cottage cheese. Anyways that guy immediately gets shot in the chest with a shotgun. I don't like wall of text either but what do I have to do when there are people constantly attacking me with baseless arguments? Like when I posted some H2H ASL stats between the top 3 players of each race in #179, which is just presenting information like what RJBTV did in #174. Then eonzerg dived in and spouted a load of shite about me and my posts. In which case I have the rights / need to defense myself, which unfortunately leads to a lot of unnecessary back and forth. I don't like staying silent because that would imply I have no arguments or in the wrong. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1109 Posts
I don't like staying silent because that would imply I have no arguments or in the wrong. Sounds like my gf lol | ||
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