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CHEONSOYUN
565 Posts
On November 19 2025 22:02 TMNT wrote: I don't like staying silent because that would imply I have no arguments or in the wrong. nobody cares especially after 55+ whiny posts | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 19 2025 19:09 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: apparently is a kraekling thread. I've been putting off doing an update on this since forever... will do soon. I'll be adding some new stuff as well, if anyone has specific ideas or wishes - write them here - I might include it 44 MILLION new replays on repmastered in 2025 alone!! ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/QvQ9xrDQ/repamster.png) btw boys, consider donating an € or a dollar to repmastered, this is literally our library of alexandria and icza is doing this for free and hosting does cost money | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 19 2025 22:59 TornadoSteve wrote: I don't like staying silent because that would imply I have no arguments or in the wrong. Sounds like my gf lol What a stupid thing to say because (i) you are implying your gf behaviour is negative thing, thus disrespecting her and/or being misogynistic, and (ii) more importantly, I'm not in a relationship or have friendship with anyone here so why do I have to refrain. I swear these lot who go around in forums making comments about other people instead of the topic are not very smart, hence their contributions are absolutely worthless. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 19 2025 23:32 CHEONSOYUN wrote: nobody cares especially after 55+ whiny posts Since when providing information and making arguments based on that is considered whiny? Like if I say Protoss has inferior win rate to Zerg is that whiny or I'm just stating a fact? Also what a coincidence the majority of people who have a problem with my posts are... guess what? Zerg supporters or players. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 19 2025 23:33 Kraekkling wrote: I've been putting off doing an update on this since forever... will do soon. I'll be adding some new stuff as well, if anyone has specific ideas or wishes - write them here - I might include it 44 MILLION new replays on repmastered in 2025 alone!! I will think about it and see if there is something worth adding. Its me or this amount of replays could be an indicative of Broodwar popolarity rising the past years ? BTW something interesting about late game balance is that zerg has to be very well stablish mid game not getting major damage no blundering costly units etc to be able to hold protoss and get use of hive tech. WHile protoss as long as the game is equal Mid game the have an advantage going into late game. Another interesting thing is that early game if Protoss plays a high risk high reward build. Lets say 1 gate nexus or nexus first into forge 1 canon there is always the chance for the game to end really quick. Either by micro mistakes or by just no sending enough workers to block the lings and ending up dying cuz of 1 canon. maybe in the future build orders will be part of stats too. | ||
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Malinor
Germany4734 Posts
On November 19 2025 23:33 Kraekkling wrote: I've been putting off doing an update on this since forever... will do soon. I'll be adding some new stuff as well, if anyone has specific ideas or wishes - write them here - I might include it 44 MILLION new replays on repmastered in 2025 alone!! btw boys, consider donating an € or a dollar to repmastered, this is literally our library of alexandria and icza is doing this for free and hosting does cost money The game is 27 years old and there are new replays of 44 Million 1v1s from 2025 alone. This makes me so happy, I could cry. What a game. Re-visiting Kraekklings analysis from back in the day also revealed again to me, what a masterpiece of balance bw is. Three totally different match-ups and you arrive on aggregate at win percentages of 48-52%... absolutely masterful. It is very unfortunate, that on the very highest level, Protoss percentages drop by an observable margin. I know there are people out there saying, only the matchups at the very top matters to evaluate balance. But I am not of that opinion. The game would not be beloved in the way it is, if you would not have a decent shot at winning on nearly every map at every level (and even 40:60 are still very decent odds). edit: just donated to RepMastered. Thank you for making me aware that this site exists. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 19 2025 23:33 Kraekkling wrote: I've been putting off doing an update on this since forever... will do soon. I'll be adding some new stuff as well, if anyone has specific ideas or wishes - write them here - I might include it can you do similar stats based on available data in eloboard results, which only registers top level korean players official games? only maps names and players/races are published there though https://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=bat maybe some basic race/map winrates can done within that site, but i am no korean speaker | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3119 Posts
On November 19 2025 22:02 TMNT wrote: I don't like wall of text either but what do I have to do when there are people constantly attacking me with baseless arguments? Like when I posted some H2H ASL stats between the top 3 players of each race in #179, which is just presenting information like what RJBTV did in #174. Then eonzerg dived in and spouted a load of shite about me and my posts. In which case I have the rights / need to defense myself, which unfortunately leads to a lot of unnecessary back and forth. I don't like staying silent because that would imply I have no arguments or in the wrong. I feel like you attract the arguments because you go hard into debate with everyone. If you focused more on being constructive, as corny as it sounds, and positing some clever solutions, the nature of the discussion would shift dramatically away from balance debate into something much more engaging (I would like to show some examples but I don't have the time atm). Otherwise it just seems like the goal isn't to make the game better or increase understanding of it, but to be right in an argument. Which is all good sometimes. Who doesn't enjoy a good evisceration. But the discussions could be better. Even now you are responding to people yet again and arguing the same points. There is nothing to gain from it. If I were you I'd go learn the piano or something. Like seriously, not trying to be condescending, just take it from a 90 year old. Time is valuable. Don't waste it on this BS. : ) | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
will do soon man what If I told you that I'm looking at stuff right now that will blow everyones mind. at least I am very surprised to see what I see... need to do some sanity checks and stuff like that first. also I'm on the 2024 dataset right now, gonna get the most recent one in the next few days from icza, but this shouldn't change anything now, until I show you the new data, please ponder on the very simple question: how balanced are spawn locations? | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 20 2025 01:33 Soft_General_5023 wrote: can you do similar stats based on available data in eloboard results, which only registers top level korean players official games? only maps names and players/races are published there though https://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=bat maybe some basic race/map winrates can done within that site, but i am no korean speaker unfortunately no, because they track only some data by hand for these games. but you can at least see data for specific maps here. use the auto translate of your browser (or some extension) to go from korean->english for the map names from repmastered I can get much more data since the actual game replays were processed also in general we're talking about several orders of magnitute of difference in statistics, so its not really comparable | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 20 2025 01:39 Kraekkling wrote: man what If I told you that I'm looking at stuff right now that will blow everyones mind. at least I am very surprised to see what I see... need to do some sanity checks and stuff like that first. also I'm on the 2024 dataset right now, gonna get the most recent one in the next few days from icza, but this shouldn't change anything now, until I show you the new data, please ponder on the very simple question: how balanced are spawn locations? Well many years ago i played a friend and the game was lagging so we had to leave it. Then he was kinda mad cuz he got the best spawn on FS (Top rigth) but i didnt know what the hell he was talking about, And that day i learnt that top right on FS was insane eco for Protoss. So would notice in games faster sair. faster zealot speed. And even more minerals to defend hydra rush. So that day i learnt how it was so hard to beat protoss on that spawn particulary. cuz before that i noticed how hard it always was but i didnt have an explanation. Saying that Ofc the way you do timings and the way you attack is super important when do you spawn And even the defense is also different depending where do you spawn. In recent times Before the nerf Sylphid top spawn was great for zerg cuz your get your 9pool at 0.59 xD . Depending on Spawns you are giving up on builds you can execute pretty much. I guess thats what happened to Snow in the final vs Soma and his explanation. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 20 2025 01:44 Kraekkling wrote: unfortunately no, because they track only some data by hand for these games. but you can at least see data for specific maps here. use the auto translate of your browser (or some extension) to go from korean->english for the map names from repmastered I can get much more data since the actual game replays were processed also in general we're talking about several orders of magnitute of difference in statistics, so its not really comparable thank you, that map stat link is quite helpful, didn't know that Vermeer and Polestar are such a Terran favoured maps. On all 20 most played maps, Terran has over 50% winrate, Artosis, where art thou? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 20 2025 01:34 RogerChillingworth wrote: I feel like you attract the arguments because you go hard into debate with everyone. If you focused more on being constructive, as corny as it sounds, and positing some clever solutions, the nature of the discussion would shift dramatically away from balance debate into something much more engaging (I would like to show some examples but I don't have the time atm). Otherwise it just seems like the goal isn't to make the game better or increase understanding of it, but to be right in an argument. Which is all good sometimes. Who doesn't enjoy a good evisceration. But the discussions could be better. Even now you are responding to people yet again and arguing the same points. There is nothing to gain from it. If I were you I'd go learn the piano or something. Like seriously, not trying to be condescending, just take it from a 90 year old. Time is valuable. Don't waste it on this BS. : ) TMNT's problem in his methodology he does not stick to purely objectively and neutrally responding only to the argument being made. He gets baited into all the opinionated fluff around the argument. the correct play is to ignore it and stick to just the argument. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 20 2025 02:36 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: TMNT's problem in his methodology he does not stick to purely objectively and neutrally responding only to the argument being made. Snow explicitly said that there is no ZvP imbalance and he lost due to playing badly. What is Snow's problem in his methodology in your opinion? TMNT is saying that Snow is lying because of "image". | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 20 2025 01:34 RogerChillingworth wrote: I feel like you attract the arguments because you go hard into debate with everyone. If you focused more on being constructive, as corny as it sounds, and positing some clever solutions, the nature of the discussion would shift dramatically away from balance debate into something much more engaging (I would like to show some examples but I don't have the time atm). Otherwise it just seems like the goal isn't to make the game better or increase understanding of it, but to be right in an argument. Which is all good sometimes. Who doesn't enjoy a good evisceration. But the discussions could be better. Even now you are responding to people yet again and arguing the same points. There is nothing to gain from it. If I were you I'd go learn the piano or something. Like seriously, not trying to be condescending, just take it from a 90 year old. Time is valuable. Don't waste it on this BS. : ) I don't deny that the bold parts are mostly true. But it doesn't help me that the people who argue with me are neither being constructive nor respectful. The main culprit is eonzerg. Like what you're gonna do when you post something then eonzerg dives in talking shite about you on a personal level, while misunderstanding what you say, using flawed logic, and posting wrong facts, all at the same time? My method is to point out one by one every single thing he's wrong about. To be honest I know he's gonna ignore all of them again and again lol, but it just feels wrong to me to not do it. (Well, when I have time of course, which at the moment is quite plenty) | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 20 2025 03:17 TMNT wrote: (Well, when I have time of course, which at the moment is quite plenty) If you have plenty of time then maybe, as suggested, you could learn to how to play piano, chess .. Or, dare to say, some obscure almost 30 year old RTS game? | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway764 Posts
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 20 2025 04:43 Soft_General_5023 wrote: If you have plenty of time then maybe, as suggested, you could learn to how to play piano, chess .. Or, dare to say, some obscure almost 30 year old RTS game? How do you know I don't play the game? All of us here probably used to play or are still playing to some capacity. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 20 2025 02:47 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Snow explicitly said that there is no ZvP imbalance and he lost due to playing badly. What is Snow's problem in his methodology in your opinion? TMNT is saying that Snow is lying because of "image". Both can be true. There can both be a minor imbalance and Snow playing bad. One does not cancel out the other. That part of your argument is you assuming and inducing too much without there being logical ground to conclude that much. This makes your argument a fallacy. TMNT is right in that It is true that in Korean culture it is considered shameful to blame or say something that would depict another in a negative light. Claiming there's imbalance that caused SoMa to win would be exactly that. It would reflect poorly on both Soma and SnOw. However, this does not eliminate the possibility, which is very likely, that SnOw sincerely does not believe there is any imbalance. However, SnOw saying there is or is no imbalance, does not serve as evidence that there is or is not. Whatever SnOw believes would be subjective opinion, an anecdote of sorts. Anecdotal evidence is a fallacy and can not be considered robust enough to support a notion. Neither SnOw being for or against the notion of there being imbalance proves or disproves either. It is really just an opinion, which we can take into consideration, but which we can not lend more credence to than that. Hence we must rely on data and data interpretation. The more data we have, the more we can interpreted and extrapolate from said data. However we must tread carefully not to induce too much into said datasets, because then it would become too opinionated, and as stated above, an opinion that relies too heavily on induction, not deduction, would be disqualified for being a fallacy. Need help determining all fallacies? https://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/engl1311/fallacies.htm | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
Yes this thread deteriorated from the debate of the game balance to the debate of a person balance. And no one is any wiser I think. I am sorry and out. Maybe more constructive posts can be made in this thread asking map makers, as the game can be only balanced by maps now. | ||
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