EPTFlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
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jinjin5000
United States1458 Posts
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Kraekkling
540 Posts
well, this might be Flash's opinion, but wayyy more people on tl agreed that Snow lost because zvp is inherently unfair. the best way forward would be to collect a lot of money so we can send a donation to Flash while he is streaming to explain to him that he is wrong | ||
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oxKnu
1239 Posts
On November 10 2025 00:47 Kraekkling wrote: thanks for this jinjin! well, this might be Flash's opinion, but wayyy more people on tl agreed that Snow lost because zvp is inherently unfair. the best way forward would be to collect a lot of money so we can send a donation to Flash while he is streaming to explain to him that he is wrong That's a very simplistic way to summarize what people were saying. There were others, like me, who identified that Soma is a terrible match-up for Snow because he is exploiting him to the absolute fullest with his inherent playstyle. Flash's basic argument stems from that. This is pretty obvious, it's something that has to do with Snow but there are also historical reasons to talk about PvZ matchup as imbalanced, what better occasion to do that than the ASL finals? Snow didn't play well in the finals and he is also showcasing that he is not willing to change his mindset re: the matchup. Best for example, although his overall performance might've looked much inferior to Snow's understood two rounds ago that Soma's playstyle is a perfect to antidote to his regular play. Sure, failed to execute on a viable alternative but at least there was real recognition there. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
82 Posts
just some protoss whiners say on this forum it's general pvz imbalance | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary321 Posts
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Kraekkling
540 Posts
On November 10 2025 01:10 oxKnu wrote: That's a very simplistic way to summarize what people were saying. nah man I'm not trying to summarize anything, I just poke a bit of fun at people who wrote essays on how the loss was due to the nature of the matchup or people making balance change suggestions lol | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
554 Posts
protoss players mad because soma made snow look stupid | ||
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ahwala
Germany402 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia422 Posts
Individual leagues OSL MSL ASL... 11:2 KCM 9:0 What else needs to be said? Flash is free to switch to P and enlighten us all how to dominate PvZ. | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2925 Posts
On November 10 2025 05:32 Rainalcar wrote: ZvP finals Individual leagues OSL MSL ASL... 11:2 KCM 9:0 What else needs to be said? Flash is free to switch to P and enlighten us all how to dominate PvZ. HT's can decimate a Zerg army in seconds with a few well placed storms. | ||
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sc2turtlepants
45 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1656 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2288 Posts
On November 10 2025 05:42 Smorrie wrote: HT's can decimate a Zerg army in seconds with a few well placed storms. if you're playing vs potato... i've played vs soma a few times, good luck killing shit with storms vs that level of player.. btw flash is actually talking about stoping the hydra push, that is the optimization he is talking about (instead of squeezing extra probe, he squeezes extra probe control to annoy zerg kind of stuff), he never addresses the problem that SnOw is probably going to have in a few minutes playing a 50-50 game from the midgame to the late game. Snow has optimization issues : YES Zerg is favorite vs Protoss : YES Can snow play better?: YES Can protoss beat zerg in a consistent fashion?: NO is there an historical unbalance of the match up?: YES can snow win vs #1 z just optimizing better?: I DOUBT IT | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6739 Posts
PD: him losing on Blitz Y vs Soulkey a map with 33% win rate for zerg doesnt prove nothing. Snow played fair and square and decided to no use his third gaz the whole game to make a fair game vs Soulkey. Protoss are just like that. Pure souls. Signed: TMNT | ||
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Bonyth
Poland585 Posts
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Smorrie
Netherlands2925 Posts
On November 10 2025 07:36 XenOsky wrote: if you're playing vs potato... i've played vs soma a few times, good luck killing shit with storms vs that level of player.. btw flash is actually talking about stoping the hydra push, that is the optimization he is talking about (instead of squeezing extra probe, he squeezes extra probe control to annoy zerg kind of stuff), he never addresses the problem that SnOw is probably going to have in a few minutes playing a 50-50 game from the midgame to the late game. Snow has optimization issues : YES Zerg is favorite vs Protoss : YES Can snow play better?: YES Can protoss beat zerg in a consistent fashion?: NO is there an historical unbalance of the match up?: YES can snow win vs #1 z just optimizing better?: I DOUBT IT ya'll gotta chill - i put down a random comment to add to the strawmanning. it seems most of you are misrepresenting the point flash is trying to make in this clip, wanting to push a PvZ imba agenda. The point he's making is about Snow, not PvZ balance. Sure, it's related, so is a HT or a lurker. zzz | ||
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Brett
Australia3822 Posts
On November 10 2025 05:32 Rainalcar wrote: ZvP finals Individual leagues OSL MSL ASL... 11:2 KCM 9:0 What else needs to be said? Flash is free to switch to P and enlighten us all how to dominate PvZ. Nothing. Flash wont do it, and couldn't anyway. | ||
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goody153
44230 Posts
I do believe Flash is somewhat right that Snow has some macro issues which was pointed out by many pro players before but frankly speaking other protosses dont so unless the overwhelming zerg victory vs protoss in almost every finals in a long period of time cant be discounted tbqh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- seriously just make maps that makes hydra busts hard (although some of those maps make lurker contain good as well but that's a tradeoff than hydra bust every game) On November 10 2025 01:22 Soft_General_5023 wrote: snow's playstyle sucks agains soma's just some protoss whiners say on this forum it's general pvz imbalance It's always just "whiners" but nobody could really prove how zerg has been winning all the finals vs protoss all the time. It's one thing for like players who make it multiple times but another when every finals is just a zerg win vs protoss with different people involved and nobody can still win It's not the players anymore On November 10 2025 09:33 Brett wrote: Nothing. Flash wont do it, and couldn't anyway. I heard Flash has good protoss but I doubt he could even if he would show how to beat zerg's best all the time | ||
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Kraekkling
540 Posts
when Snow's first corsair is out on the map, he scouts Soma's third and sees the hydra den go down at 6:37 hydra den build time is 25sec, both hydra upgrades are 63sec each. that's two and a half minutes after the den is started, before Zerg can attack thus in this case, any hydra aggression should come after ~9 minutes at earliest (6:37 + 25 + 63 + 63) however, Snow has 4 (!) cannons finish before 8:30 at his natural so Snow ended up preparing at least 30 seconds early for hydras (which never came in the end) + Show Spoiler + I think there was somewhat of a mind game happening - Soma saw the scouting path of the Corsair and knew that it was going for his third. He already had a drone in place to place the fifth hatch, but instead went hydra den before fifth hatch, like he did in several of the previous games, which implies hydra bust. On the other hand though, whenever Soma really went for hydra busts, in each of the previous games he was extra sneaky with his hydra den placement and hid it every time. VOD:+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1458 Posts
On November 10 2025 07:36 XenOsky wrote: if you're playing vs potato... i've played vs soma a few times, good luck killing shit with storms vs that level of player.. btw flash is actually talking about stoping the hydra push, that is the optimization he is talking about (instead of squeezing extra probe, he squeezes extra probe control to annoy zerg kind of stuff), he never addresses the problem that SnOw is probably going to have in a few minutes playing a 50-50 game from the midgame to the late game. Snow has optimization issues : YES Zerg is favorite vs Protoss : YES Can snow play better?: YES Can protoss beat zerg in a consistent fashion?: NO is there an historical unbalance of the match up?: YES can snow win vs #1 z just optimizing better?: I DOUBT IT SnOw had much closer game in chinese spon series recently than the finals | ||
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TMNT
3022 Posts
Like when he said Snow was extremely late to add cannons on Polestar (5s margin). But you can see in the VOD that he spots the hydras at 8:15, but has to pull back zealots and sairs first (obviously), and at 8:17 his screen is already at his nat but of course the probe also has to travel to the spot as well. What kind of "0.5s optimization" possible in this case lol? Having an idle probe always on the spot and leaving your sairs and zealots to die? Or when he said Bisu shouldn't have been in the same place because he'd have more zealots, discounting the fact that Snow's Gate was destroyed in the Ling bust. And strangely no mention of the real issue (Snow's horrible sim city in that game). | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13292 Posts
I’m nowhere near that level so won’t hypothesise why Snow struggles in PvZ. It’s a hard matchup and honestly, Bisu is probably the only guy who you’d take in bo7 vs any of the S tier ZvP guys (hero, SK, Soma). | ||
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Comedy
463 Posts
but on ladder and in foreign leagues, protoss actually looks imbalanced, not zerg lol. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3073 Posts
I've watched SnOw's POV and he is way more than reaver micro. The way he anticipates his opponent and blocks their moves, his army movement, his overall intuition...but at the same time he's another bed-shitter who falls to B-level zergs like Killer, and generally looks uncaffeinated and uninterested in some of his poorer performances. The great thing about Brood War, which is what every game should have in my opinion, is the ability for players to express themselves. Not just skill expression, but personality. All these players are expressive. It's freaking sweet when a player has significant weaknesses but can harness their strengths to pull it back and be exceptional. Like, that's just the coolest thing ever. Cooler than the Fonz. | ||
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SCRVN
107 Posts
At the highest level, Protoss is always seen as the weakest race. At the lowest level, Protoss still as the weakest race too. Because Terran and Zerg players can reach the ASL Ro24 if they work hard enough. Some amateur players like Larva, Soma, and Barrack have even reached the finals or won the ASL, but only former KeSPA Protoss players have managed to do. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia934 Posts
Any place to see spon match stats? Not proleague, actual spons. I wonder how much PvZ Bisu plays, and how much PvT Snow plays, relative to total, when it is +- their choice / what their fans ask of them. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary321 Posts
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Comedy
463 Posts
On November 10 2025 19:45 sas.Sziky wrote: The problem is that those who talk about balance based on these series are just very discredited. Bisu lost 3:4 against a 6 years younger guy and basically lost because a misslick. Snow played so badly but still won 2 games he has family and 2 years older. Sorry guys but with knowing these things and with my experience there is not even close a reason to talking about balance if u did just so dont understand the game and the competition overall. Based on these, everyone could rightly say that P imba too. do you think that it's possible for a guy like you to beat dewalt? If not, is he just so much better? or is it because he is Protoss? | ||
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TMNT
3022 Posts
For one, people having these reactions after each major series is never because of player X losing to player Y. It's about the 11:2 and 9:0 of this world and yet another example of it. But I guess from the opposing point of view, playing it down to "because [this Z player] is better than [this P player]" each time is way easier than explaining why it keeps happening for 20 years. Secondly, two things can be true at the same time: Snow could have played better, but ZvP could still be imbalanced. I've said time and time again that win or loss is not the issue, yet the manner of the win/loss is the real indication of the matchup imbalance. That some people think to be able to find some flaws in Snow's play is a catch-them-all argument for this whole balance discussion is ludicrous. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3073 Posts
I get that it's fun to pore over the numbers and be a vocal spectator on the forums, but when pros don't blame their losses on balance or rile up the discussion, then people on here should take the cue, especially considering the only people that would enlighten such a conversation are the pros—or at the very least the people who play a lot whose mistakes are seldom enough that balance/healthiness plays a relevant role, not their own ineptitude—instead of the forum posters who don't even play and are just scratching at the wall because they have nothing else to do and outrage is seductive lol. Both SnOw's points about his own play AND Flash's critique are far more compelling than the discussions that have gone on here, and they don't mention balance. Hmmmmmmm, very interesting indeed. | ||
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Kraekkling
540 Posts
All of this is true and there can be plenty of healthy discussion on why this is and how it can be fixed. However, the outcome of this series in particular (4-2) is to be solely explained by player skill and how they played during the series: - The stats agree that this outcome is fair (40%WR vs 63% WR) - Snow agrees that this outcome is fair - Flash agrees that this outcome is fair Its not like we saw Shine 4-0 Bisu or something. This specific series is just a terrible data point to make any kind of argument of why the matchup is imbalanced. | ||
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TMNT
3022 Posts
On November 10 2025 22:22 Kraekkling wrote: I personally do think that ZvP is not perfectly balanced, which is due to maps. In general, the further we go back in time, the more imbalanced the maps get. If you look at any map pool during OSL/MSL, the maps were much worse for Protoss compared to maps today. This to me is a big part why we have these historical 11:2 stats. All of this is true and there can be plenty of healthy discussion on why this is and how it can be fixed. However, the outcome of this series in particular (4-2) is to be solely explained by player skill and how they played during the series: - The stats agree that this outcome is fair (40%WR vs 63% WR) - Snow agrees that this outcome is fair - Flash agrees that this outcome is fair Its not like we saw Shine 4-0 Bisu or something. This specific series is just a terrible data point to make any kind of argument of why the matchup is imbalanced. Nah. There's a flaw in this logic. I dont know what win rates you are talking about, but Snow vs Soma in 2025 (the only relevant stats) is 25-28 (47.2%) But the main problem is that the unfairness of the matchup itself creates that 47.2%, so you can't take it as a reference and point back at the outcome and say it's fair. How much Soma beat Snow by skill and how much he relies on the matchup advantage, there's no way to quantify (in the same way that you can't separate Flash and Tesagi). But for sure the outcome of the series is not "solely" explained by skill. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary321 Posts
On November 10 2025 13:20 TMNT wrote: Flash's probably right in a general sense, considering even Snow criticized himself for his performance in the finals. But some of the examples he gave in this video don't even make sense. If a nobody on TL says the same thing he'd be called out lol. Like when he said Snow was extremely late to add cannons on Polestar (5s margin). But you can see in the VOD that he spots the hydras at 8:15, but has to pull back zealots and sairs first (obviously), and at 8:17 his screen is already at his nat but of course the probe also has to travel to the spot as well. What kind of "0.5s optimization" possible in this case lol? Having an idle probe always on the spot and leaving your sairs and zealots to die? Or when he said Bisu shouldn't have been in the same place because he'd have more zealots, discounting the fact that Snow's Gate was destroyed in the Ling bust. And strangely no mention of the real issue (Snow's horrible sim city in that game). He saw hydras 8:13-14. Third cannon on time (8:20 if a pylon is in the right place he can made fourth and fifth cannon 8:21 and sixth around 8:25) instead fourth was late 8:28 . ( also he made 2 cannon on his main but thats okay ).so he made pylons on natural on bad position or was late the right pylon so then late 4-5-6 cannon with bad position. if i would have to guess because the pylon was on wrong postion and he cant build on time cannon on the good position he hesitated and basically when he saw the hydras and his late pylon he already know ok i lost this. So yes those cannon was late and was on the bad position in this situation. + Also i think he not canceled the sixth corsair then it could have been +1 cannoni mean if he has good pylon  | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10233 Posts
On November 10 2025 13:20 TMNT wrote: Flash's probably right in a general sense, considering even Snow criticized himself for his performance in the finals. But some of the examples he gave in this video don't even make sense. If a nobody on TL says the same thing he'd be called out lol. Like when he said Snow was extremely late to add cannons on Polestar (5s margin). But you can see in the VOD that he spots the hydras at 8:15, but has to pull back zealots and sairs first (obviously), and at 8:17 his screen is already at his nat but of course the probe also has to travel to the spot as well. What kind of "0.5s optimization" possible in this case lol? Having an idle probe always on the spot and leaving your sairs and zealots to die? Or when he said Bisu shouldn't have been in the same place because he'd have more zealots, discounting the fact that Snow's Gate was destroyed in the Ling bust. And strangely no mention of the real issue (Snow's horrible sim city in that game). Snow if he had proper building placement and sim city management: enlightenedsociety.jpg The last time a Protoss beat a Zerg in a final was 2007 (Bisu vs Savior). The only other time was 2000 (Garimto vs Skeleton). Idk, seems pretty absurd to say that every single time the Zerg player was just better than the Protoss player. | ||
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Kraekkling
540 Posts
look at how slowly he makes cannons, doesn't even stop probe production still, his cannons were almost on time. if he just pulls probes and gains a few seconds, he is safe and ahead. even the casters thought he was safe ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/0ymK8qkp/Screenshot-20251110-174105-You-Tube.jpg) instead he died to 12 hydras | ||
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Bonyth
Poland585 Posts
Of course, Snow needed to make that 3rd pylon there for the sake of safety at the cost of optimization. I'm also a bit triggered when people quote progamers as if they were oracles or whatever. It is in their interest to have people believe this game is balanced, so just because of that they may be saying that. Another reason could be cultural differences, or some of them could just simply believe that. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland585 Posts
On November 11 2025 01:52 Kraekkling wrote: second game on Dominator, he scouted the hydra bust hours in advance look at how slowly he makes cannons, doesn't even stop probe production still, his cannons were almost on time. if he just pulls probes and gains a few seconds, he is safe and ahead. even the casters thought he was safe instead he died to 12 hydras what are you trying to prove? Did Snow play perfectly? No, of course not. Most of us know that. Hardly anyone argues against that. | ||
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Kraekkling
540 Posts
if we're trying to make general statements about the matchup, we need to consider how good the players are in this matchup if anything, their respective head-to-head count is the worst metric to evaluate the matchup as a whole, since it will be influenced the most by things like personal style and relative strengths and weaknesses what are you trying to prove? Did Snow play perfectly? No, of course not. Most of us know that. Hardly anyone argues against that. I'm just getting triggered by TMNT replies. stopping now | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6739 Posts
A little correction. Bisu was the last Protoss to win a pvz FInal vs Hero. SSL 9  2014 9th SonicTV StarleagueYeah it was before the ASL era but is worth noting that SSL started it all. Then 2 seasons later Hero beat him in the final. If you look at the roster even Jangbi was participating. Hiya was beating Snow (i know yeah..) So for sure it was less competitive than now. It was also more more nostalgic when it came to pick maps. One of the seasons there was only protoss and terran in the round of 8. And the final was sSak vs Last. with a mappool like this Blue Storm Fighting Spirit Return of the King Sin Peaks of Baekdu . I dont think saying Protoss didnt win x finals is such an strong point you all wanna make when they are beating zergs before the final. Btw i havent been able to post and to talk about maps but the reality of making maps for protoss is how greedy we allow them to go. Watch old kespa Games protoss was forced to play with 3 canons minimum if they wanted to survive with such shitty sim city. These days we allow them to defend with 1 canon. Perfect walls. And what happens is they die to rushes. I Swear protoss in the past didnt even die that much too the stuff we are seeing these days. So in a sense while Maps evolution has helped protoss in some aspects they also made it weaker in other fronts. Cuz now they are adapted to defend everything with 1 canons. with 2 zealots. etc How greedy can this player go so he get 150 populations and 9 minutes and shit the floor with zerg . In the mean time giving extremely hard setups for zerg to defend a 4 expansions. I mean shit these days you see zerg doing 20 minutes hive and seeing the first swarm at 21 minutes.. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary321 Posts
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sas.Sziky
Hungary321 Posts
On November 11 2025 01:58 Kraekkling wrote: the 40% and the 63% are just their respective win rates in this matchup in ASL if we're trying to make general statements about the matchup, we need to consider how good the players are in this matchup if anything, their respective head-to-head count is the worst metric to evaluate the matchup as a whole, since it will be influenced the most by things like personal style and relative strengths and weaknesses I'm just getting triggered by TMNT replies. stopping now happends to me too  + almost with everyone this why i said in the past how toxic he is. | ||
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G5
United States2919 Posts
But he keeps pointing to "optimize like Bisu" and "compare it to Bisu", whom most consider the gold standard in PvZ, and Bisu still lost to soma making it like... at least the 3rd ASL in a row he's been eliminated by a Zerg. We have 25+ years of data of professional PvZ. I dunno why we're arguing against Zerg having a slight advantage vs Protoss. It's just stupid at this point. | ||
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