EPTFlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
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jinjin5000
United States1477 Posts
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
well, this might be Flash's opinion, but wayyy more people on tl agreed that Snow lost because zvp is inherently unfair. the best way forward would be to collect a lot of money so we can send a donation to Flash while he is streaming to explain to him that he is wrong | ||
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oxKnu
1244 Posts
On November 10 2025 00:47 Kraekkling wrote: thanks for this jinjin! well, this might be Flash's opinion, but wayyy more people on tl agreed that Snow lost because zvp is inherently unfair. the best way forward would be to collect a lot of money so we can send a donation to Flash while he is streaming to explain to him that he is wrong That's a very simplistic way to summarize what people were saying. There were others, like me, who identified that Soma is a terrible match-up for Snow because he is exploiting him to the absolute fullest with his inherent playstyle. Flash's basic argument stems from that. This is pretty obvious, it's something that has to do with Snow but there are also historical reasons to talk about PvZ matchup as imbalanced, what better occasion to do that than the ASL finals? Snow didn't play well in the finals and he is also showcasing that he is not willing to change his mindset re: the matchup. Best for example, although his overall performance might've looked much inferior to Snow's understood two rounds ago that Soma's playstyle is a perfect to antidote to his regular play. Sure, failed to execute on a viable alternative but at least there was real recognition there. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
just some protoss whiners say on this forum it's general pvz imbalance | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 10 2025 01:10 oxKnu wrote: That's a very simplistic way to summarize what people were saying. nah man I'm not trying to summarize anything, I just poke a bit of fun at people who wrote essays on how the loss was due to the nature of the matchup or people making balance change suggestions lol | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
565 Posts
protoss players mad because soma made snow look stupid | ||
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ahwala
Germany418 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia425 Posts
Individual leagues OSL MSL ASL... 11:2 KCM 9:0 What else needs to be said? Flash is free to switch to P and enlighten us all how to dominate PvZ. | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2925 Posts
On November 10 2025 05:32 Rainalcar wrote: ZvP finals Individual leagues OSL MSL ASL... 11:2 KCM 9:0 What else needs to be said? Flash is free to switch to P and enlighten us all how to dominate PvZ. HT's can decimate a Zerg army in seconds with a few well placed storms. | ||
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sc2turtlepants
47 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1673 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2321 Posts
On November 10 2025 05:42 Smorrie wrote: HT's can decimate a Zerg army in seconds with a few well placed storms. if you're playing vs potato... i've played vs soma a few times, good luck killing shit with storms vs that level of player.. btw flash is actually talking about stoping the hydra push, that is the optimization he is talking about (instead of squeezing extra probe, he squeezes extra probe control to annoy zerg kind of stuff), he never addresses the problem that SnOw is probably going to have in a few minutes playing a 50-50 game from the midgame to the late game. Snow has optimization issues : YES Zerg is favorite vs Protoss : YES Can snow play better?: YES Can protoss beat zerg in a consistent fashion?: NO is there an historical unbalance of the match up?: YES can snow win vs #1 z just optimizing better?: I DOUBT IT | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
PD: him losing on Blitz Y vs Soulkey a map with 33% win rate for zerg doesnt prove nothing. Snow played fair and square and decided to no use his third gaz the whole game to make a fair game vs Soulkey. Protoss are just like that. Pure souls. Signed: TMNT | ||
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Bonyth
Poland595 Posts
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Smorrie
Netherlands2925 Posts
On November 10 2025 07:36 XenOsky wrote: if you're playing vs potato... i've played vs soma a few times, good luck killing shit with storms vs that level of player.. btw flash is actually talking about stoping the hydra push, that is the optimization he is talking about (instead of squeezing extra probe, he squeezes extra probe control to annoy zerg kind of stuff), he never addresses the problem that SnOw is probably going to have in a few minutes playing a 50-50 game from the midgame to the late game. Snow has optimization issues : YES Zerg is favorite vs Protoss : YES Can snow play better?: YES Can protoss beat zerg in a consistent fashion?: NO is there an historical unbalance of the match up?: YES can snow win vs #1 z just optimizing better?: I DOUBT IT ya'll gotta chill - i put down a random comment to add to the strawmanning. it seems most of you are misrepresenting the point flash is trying to make in this clip, wanting to push a PvZ imba agenda. The point he's making is about Snow, not PvZ balance. Sure, it's related, so is a HT or a lurker. zzz | ||
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Brett
Australia3822 Posts
On November 10 2025 05:32 Rainalcar wrote: ZvP finals Individual leagues OSL MSL ASL... 11:2 KCM 9:0 What else needs to be said? Flash is free to switch to P and enlighten us all how to dominate PvZ. Nothing. Flash wont do it, and couldn't anyway. | ||
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goody153
44238 Posts
I do believe Flash is somewhat right that Snow has some macro issues which was pointed out by many pro players before but frankly speaking other protosses dont so unless the overwhelming zerg victory vs protoss in almost every finals in a long period of time cant be discounted tbqh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- seriously just make maps that makes hydra busts hard (although some of those maps make lurker contain good as well but that's a tradeoff than hydra bust every game) On November 10 2025 01:22 Soft_General_5023 wrote: snow's playstyle sucks agains soma's just some protoss whiners say on this forum it's general pvz imbalance It's always just "whiners" but nobody could really prove how zerg has been winning all the finals vs protoss all the time. It's one thing for like players who make it multiple times but another when every finals is just a zerg win vs protoss with different people involved and nobody can still win It's not the players anymore On November 10 2025 09:33 Brett wrote: Nothing. Flash wont do it, and couldn't anyway. I heard Flash has good protoss but I doubt he could even if he would show how to beat zerg's best all the time | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
when Snow's first corsair is out on the map, he scouts Soma's third and sees the hydra den go down at 6:37 hydra den build time is 25sec, both hydra upgrades are 63sec each. that's two and a half minutes after the den is started, before Zerg can attack thus in this case, any hydra aggression should come after ~9 minutes at earliest (6:37 + 25 + 63 + 63) however, Snow has 4 (!) cannons finish before 8:30 at his natural so Snow ended up preparing at least 30 seconds early for hydras (which never came in the end) + Show Spoiler + I think there was somewhat of a mind game happening - Soma saw the scouting path of the Corsair and knew that it was going for his third. He already had a drone in place to place the fifth hatch, but instead went hydra den before fifth hatch, like he did in several of the previous games, which implies hydra bust. On the other hand though, whenever Soma really went for hydra busts, in each of the previous games he was extra sneaky with his hydra den placement and hid it every time. VOD:+ Show Spoiler + | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1477 Posts
On November 10 2025 07:36 XenOsky wrote: if you're playing vs potato... i've played vs soma a few times, good luck killing shit with storms vs that level of player.. btw flash is actually talking about stoping the hydra push, that is the optimization he is talking about (instead of squeezing extra probe, he squeezes extra probe control to annoy zerg kind of stuff), he never addresses the problem that SnOw is probably going to have in a few minutes playing a 50-50 game from the midgame to the late game. Snow has optimization issues : YES Zerg is favorite vs Protoss : YES Can snow play better?: YES Can protoss beat zerg in a consistent fashion?: NO is there an historical unbalance of the match up?: YES can snow win vs #1 z just optimizing better?: I DOUBT IT SnOw had much closer game in chinese spon series recently than the finals | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
Like when he said Snow was extremely late to add cannons on Polestar (5s margin). But you can see in the VOD that he spots the hydras at 8:15, but has to pull back zealots and sairs first (obviously), and at 8:17 his screen is already at his nat but of course the probe also has to travel to the spot as well. What kind of "0.5s optimization" possible in this case lol? Having an idle probe always on the spot and leaving your sairs and zealots to die? Or when he said Bisu shouldn't have been in the same place because he'd have more zealots, discounting the fact that Snow's Gate was destroyed in the Ling bust. And strangely no mention of the real issue (Snow's horrible sim city in that game). | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13305 Posts
I’m nowhere near that level so won’t hypothesise why Snow struggles in PvZ. It’s a hard matchup and honestly, Bisu is probably the only guy who you’d take in bo7 vs any of the S tier ZvP guys (hero, SK, Soma). | ||
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Comedy
469 Posts
but on ladder and in foreign leagues, protoss actually looks imbalanced, not zerg lol. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3119 Posts
I've watched SnOw's POV and he is way more than reaver micro. The way he anticipates his opponent and blocks their moves, his army movement, his overall intuition...but at the same time he's another bed-shitter who falls to B-level zergs like Killer, and generally looks uncaffeinated and uninterested in some of his poorer performances. The great thing about Brood War, which is what every game should have in my opinion, is the ability for players to express themselves. Not just skill expression, but personality. All these players are expressive. It's freaking sweet when a player has significant weaknesses but can harness their strengths to pull it back and be exceptional. Like, that's just the coolest thing ever. Cooler than the Fonz. | ||
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SCRVN
135 Posts
At the highest level, Protoss is always seen as the weakest race. At the lowest level, Protoss still as the weakest race too. Because Terran and Zerg players can reach the ASL Ro24 if they work hard enough. Some amateur players like Larva, Soma, and Barrack have even reached the finals or won the ASL, but only former KeSPA Protoss players have managed to do. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia936 Posts
Any place to see spon match stats? Not proleague, actual spons. I wonder how much PvZ Bisu plays, and how much PvT Snow plays, relative to total, when it is +- their choice / what their fans ask of them. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
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Comedy
469 Posts
On November 10 2025 19:45 sas.Sziky wrote: The problem is that those who talk about balance based on these series are just very discredited. Bisu lost 3:4 against a 6 years younger guy and basically lost because a misslick. Snow played so badly but still won 2 games he has family and 2 years older. Sorry guys but with knowing these things and with my experience there is not even close a reason to talking about balance if u did just so dont understand the game and the competition overall. Based on these, everyone could rightly say that P imba too. do you think that it's possible for a guy like you to beat dewalt? If not, is he just so much better? or is it because he is Protoss? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
For one, people having these reactions after each major series is never because of player X losing to player Y. It's about the 11:2 and 9:0 of this world and yet another example of it. But I guess from the opposing point of view, playing it down to "because [this Z player] is better than [this P player]" each time is way easier than explaining why it keeps happening for 20 years. Secondly, two things can be true at the same time: Snow could have played better, but ZvP could still be imbalanced. I've said time and time again that win or loss is not the issue, yet the manner of the win/loss is the real indication of the matchup imbalance. That some people think to be able to find some flaws in Snow's play is a catch-them-all argument for this whole balance discussion is ludicrous. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3119 Posts
I get that it's fun to pore over the numbers and be a vocal spectator on the forums, but when pros don't blame their losses on balance or rile up the discussion, then people on here should take the cue, especially considering the only people that would enlighten such a conversation are the pros—or at the very least the people who play a lot whose mistakes are seldom enough that balance/healthiness plays a relevant role, not their own ineptitude—instead of the forum posters who don't even play and are just scratching at the wall because they have nothing else to do and outrage is seductive lol. Both SnOw's points about his own play AND Flash's critique are far more compelling than the discussions that have gone on here, and they don't mention balance. Hmmmmmmm, very interesting indeed. | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
All of this is true and there can be plenty of healthy discussion on why this is and how it can be fixed. However, the outcome of this series in particular (4-2) is to be solely explained by player skill and how they played during the series: - The stats agree that this outcome is fair (40%WR vs 63% WR) - Snow agrees that this outcome is fair - Flash agrees that this outcome is fair Its not like we saw Shine 4-0 Bisu or something. This specific series is just a terrible data point to make any kind of argument of why the matchup is imbalanced. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 10 2025 22:22 Kraekkling wrote: I personally do think that ZvP is not perfectly balanced, which is due to maps. In general, the further we go back in time, the more imbalanced the maps get. If you look at any map pool during OSL/MSL, the maps were much worse for Protoss compared to maps today. This to me is a big part why we have these historical 11:2 stats. All of this is true and there can be plenty of healthy discussion on why this is and how it can be fixed. However, the outcome of this series in particular (4-2) is to be solely explained by player skill and how they played during the series: - The stats agree that this outcome is fair (40%WR vs 63% WR) - Snow agrees that this outcome is fair - Flash agrees that this outcome is fair Its not like we saw Shine 4-0 Bisu or something. This specific series is just a terrible data point to make any kind of argument of why the matchup is imbalanced. Nah. There's a flaw in this logic. I dont know what win rates you are talking about, but Snow vs Soma in 2025 (the only relevant stats) is 25-28 (47.2%) But the main problem is that the unfairness of the matchup itself creates that 47.2%, so you can't take it as a reference and point back at the outcome and say it's fair. How much Soma beat Snow by skill and how much he relies on the matchup advantage, there's no way to quantify (in the same way that you can't separate Flash and Tesagi). But for sure the outcome of the series is not "solely" explained by skill. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
On November 10 2025 13:20 TMNT wrote: Flash's probably right in a general sense, considering even Snow criticized himself for his performance in the finals. But some of the examples he gave in this video don't even make sense. If a nobody on TL says the same thing he'd be called out lol. Like when he said Snow was extremely late to add cannons on Polestar (5s margin). But you can see in the VOD that he spots the hydras at 8:15, but has to pull back zealots and sairs first (obviously), and at 8:17 his screen is already at his nat but of course the probe also has to travel to the spot as well. What kind of "0.5s optimization" possible in this case lol? Having an idle probe always on the spot and leaving your sairs and zealots to die? Or when he said Bisu shouldn't have been in the same place because he'd have more zealots, discounting the fact that Snow's Gate was destroyed in the Ling bust. And strangely no mention of the real issue (Snow's horrible sim city in that game). He saw hydras 8:13-14. Third cannon on time (8:20 if a pylon is in the right place he can made fourth and fifth cannon 8:21 and sixth around 8:25) instead fourth was late 8:28 . ( also he made 2 cannon on his main but thats okay ).so he made pylons on natural on bad position or was late the right pylon so then late 4-5-6 cannon with bad position. if i would have to guess because the pylon was on wrong postion and he cant build on time cannon on the good position he hesitated and basically when he saw the hydras and his late pylon he already know ok i lost this. So yes those cannon was late and was on the bad position in this situation. + Also i think he not canceled the sixth corsair then it could have been +1 cannoni mean if he has good pylon  | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10328 Posts
On November 10 2025 13:20 TMNT wrote: Flash's probably right in a general sense, considering even Snow criticized himself for his performance in the finals. But some of the examples he gave in this video don't even make sense. If a nobody on TL says the same thing he'd be called out lol. Like when he said Snow was extremely late to add cannons on Polestar (5s margin). But you can see in the VOD that he spots the hydras at 8:15, but has to pull back zealots and sairs first (obviously), and at 8:17 his screen is already at his nat but of course the probe also has to travel to the spot as well. What kind of "0.5s optimization" possible in this case lol? Having an idle probe always on the spot and leaving your sairs and zealots to die? Or when he said Bisu shouldn't have been in the same place because he'd have more zealots, discounting the fact that Snow's Gate was destroyed in the Ling bust. And strangely no mention of the real issue (Snow's horrible sim city in that game). Snow if he had proper building placement and sim city management: enlightenedsociety.jpg The last time a Protoss beat a Zerg in a final was 2007 (Bisu vs Savior). The only other time was 2000 (Garimto vs Skeleton). Idk, seems pretty absurd to say that every single time the Zerg player was just better than the Protoss player. | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
look at how slowly he makes cannons, doesn't even stop probe production still, his cannons were almost on time. if he just pulls probes and gains a few seconds, he is safe and ahead. even the casters thought he was safe ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/0ymK8qkp/Screenshot-20251110-174105-You-Tube.jpg) instead he died to 12 hydras | ||
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Bonyth
Poland595 Posts
Of course, Snow needed to make that 3rd pylon there for the sake of safety at the cost of optimization. I'm also a bit triggered when people quote progamers as if they were oracles or whatever. It is in their interest to have people believe this game is balanced, so just because of that they may be saying that. Another reason could be cultural differences, or some of them could just simply believe that. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland595 Posts
On November 11 2025 01:52 Kraekkling wrote: second game on Dominator, he scouted the hydra bust hours in advance look at how slowly he makes cannons, doesn't even stop probe production still, his cannons were almost on time. if he just pulls probes and gains a few seconds, he is safe and ahead. even the casters thought he was safe instead he died to 12 hydras what are you trying to prove? Did Snow play perfectly? No, of course not. Most of us know that. Hardly anyone argues against that. | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
if we're trying to make general statements about the matchup, we need to consider how good the players are in this matchup if anything, their respective head-to-head count is the worst metric to evaluate the matchup as a whole, since it will be influenced the most by things like personal style and relative strengths and weaknesses what are you trying to prove? Did Snow play perfectly? No, of course not. Most of us know that. Hardly anyone argues against that. I'm just getting triggered by TMNT replies. stopping now | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
A little correction. Bisu was the last Protoss to win a pvz FInal vs Hero. SSL 9  2014 9th SonicTV StarleagueYeah it was before the ASL era but is worth noting that SSL started it all. Then 2 seasons later Hero beat him in the final. If you look at the roster even Jangbi was participating. Hiya was beating Snow (i know yeah..) So for sure it was less competitive than now. It was also more more nostalgic when it came to pick maps. One of the seasons there was only protoss and terran in the round of 8. And the final was sSak vs Last. with a mappool like this Blue Storm Fighting Spirit Return of the King Sin Peaks of Baekdu . I dont think saying Protoss didnt win x finals is such an strong point you all wanna make when they are beating zergs before the final. Btw i havent been able to post and to talk about maps but the reality of making maps for protoss is how greedy we allow them to go. Watch old kespa Games protoss was forced to play with 3 canons minimum if they wanted to survive with such shitty sim city. These days we allow them to defend with 1 canon. Perfect walls. And what happens is they die to rushes. I Swear protoss in the past didnt even die that much too the stuff we are seeing these days. So in a sense while Maps evolution has helped protoss in some aspects they also made it weaker in other fronts. Cuz now they are adapted to defend everything with 1 canons. with 2 zealots. etc How greedy can this player go so he get 150 populations and 9 minutes and shit the floor with zerg . In the mean time giving extremely hard setups for zerg to defend a 4 expansions. I mean shit these days you see zerg doing 20 minutes hive and seeing the first swarm at 21 minutes.. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
On November 11 2025 01:58 Kraekkling wrote: the 40% and the 63% are just their respective win rates in this matchup in ASL if we're trying to make general statements about the matchup, we need to consider how good the players are in this matchup if anything, their respective head-to-head count is the worst metric to evaluate the matchup as a whole, since it will be influenced the most by things like personal style and relative strengths and weaknesses I'm just getting triggered by TMNT replies. stopping now happends to me too  + almost with everyone this why i said in the past how toxic he is. | ||
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G5
United States2921 Posts
But he keeps pointing to "optimize like Bisu" and "compare it to Bisu", whom most consider the gold standard in PvZ, and Bisu still lost to soma making it like... at least the 3rd ASL in a row he's been eliminated by a Zerg. We have 25+ years of data of professional PvZ. I dunno why we're arguing against Zerg having a slight advantage vs Protoss. It's just stupid at this point. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland595 Posts
On November 11 2025 02:53 sas.Sziky wrote: We talking the same game Bonyth ? i am talking about the lowest pylon like a bad pylon ( that was not the second ) that pylon was why not above the nexus and then he can buld easily cannon for the correct postion. I would have to re-watch the game to make sure, but I was talking about the 2nd pylon that he made during the ling attack. Don't remember when that 3rd pylon on the bottom side was built. | ||
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oxKnu
1244 Posts
I won't spoil it but people should watch that to understand the massive contrast compared to the finals. The games were played in such a way that Protoss always had a chance to win from the get-go. Sometimes, (partial spoiler) that goes really bad. However, the sense you get from watching it is not of imminent P loss but rather a continuous knife-fight with some hard-counters. Some P players have not adopted this mindset and will continue on making that awful winrate look even worse if they do not approach this imbalanced match-up differently. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13305 Posts
When it comes to say Snow vs Soma who are pretty equal in skill level, Soma maybe gets a 2-3% bump due to being Z. So maybe Snow has to comparatively play a little better and get a little luckier. But overwhelmingly these series still come down to who plays better on the day. I can't think of any series in recent ASLs where a P has lost simply because of the matchup imbalance. Z has an advantage but it's not so significant that it trumps players skill levels/execution on the day. I think there's still a lot to be explored in the ZvP meta too. Protosses have pretty much been playing the same way since Bisu figured out the quick expo + cair build. There might still be some meat on the bone Ps haven't quite figured out yet. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 11 2025 01:58 Kraekkling wrote: the 40% and the 63% are just their respective win rates in this matchup in ASL if we're trying to make general statements about the matchup, we need to consider how good the players are in this matchup if anything, their respective head-to-head count is the worst metric to evaluate the matchup as a whole, since it will be influenced the most by things like personal style and relative strengths and weaknesses You have to use the right stats though. I don't know why people keep making these misleading and distracting arguments. Just use the right methodology and we're saved from these back and forth replies. The most important factor when choosing these stats is time (only recent data should count, their level 6 years ago has no relevance now). The second is scope (limiting to ASL only creates huge problems because of sample size and bracket luck, that gives you absurd conclusions like Bisu is a better PvT player than PvZ). Their respective PvZ and ZvP win rates in 2025 (all games) are 55.6 and 60.7%. Yes Soma still has the higher win rate but nowhere near the 23% gap you presented. I mean if their relevant win rates are actually 40 and 63% then I'd agree that the skill gap is too big to bring imbalances into the discussion. That's like comparing Snow's 69% in PvT to JYJ's 50% TvP, in which you have the best PvT player vs a tier-3-or-something TvP player and PvT imbalance has no business in the matter. In this case we just have the best (or top 2) PvZ player vs the best (or top 2) ZvP player. So like you said even you believe PvZ is not perfectly balanced, then the 5% win rate gap between them may be (partially) explained by the unfairness of the matchup right? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 11 2025 03:09 sas.Sziky wrote: happends to me too + almost with everyone this why i said in the past how toxic he is.I'm not sure if this is another language problem for you but that's not how you define "toxic". All I have ever done is presenting facts and logics to back up my well articulated arguments. I have very little interest in turning the discussion into personal matters. You may not like the conclusions I make but that's where you should stop. If you want toxic, it's someone like Eonzerg whose keeps delivering personal insults, memes, over-the-top sarcastic comments, and false accusations (because he can't remember things well or get facts right). On November 11 2025 00:59 sas.Sziky wrote: He saw hydras 8:13-14. Third cannon on time (8:20 if a pylon is in the right place he can made fourth and fifth cannon 8:21 and sixth around 8:25) instead fourth was late 8:28 . ( also he made 2 cannon on his main but thats okay ).so he made pylons on natural on bad position or was late the right pylon so then late 4-5-6 cannon with bad position. if i would have to guess because the pylon was on wrong postion and he cant build on time cannon on the good position he hesitated and basically when he saw the hydras and his late pylon he already know ok i lost this. So yes those cannon was late and was on the bad position in this situation. + Also i think he not canceled the sixth corsair then it could have been +1 cannoni mean if he has good pylon Re this point yeah I already acknowledged, his sim city is a mess that's why he can't build cannons faster. But that's not the point Flash made (Flash just implied it's a reaction time problem). | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
On November 11 2025 07:57 Bonyth wrote: I would have to re-watch the game to make sure, but I was talking about the 2nd pylon that he made during the ling attack. Don't remember when that 3rd pylon on the bottom side was built. What does it matter when? anyway 7:45 for no reason with good eco and etc but it is not matter he just forgot build a pylon above the nex. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 11 2025 01:52 Kraekkling wrote: second game on Dominator, he scouted the hydra bust hours in advance look at how slowly he makes cannons, doesn't even stop probe production still, his cannons were almost on time. if he just pulls probes and gains a few seconds, he is safe and ahead. even the casters thought he was safe instead he died to 12 hydras This situation was already addressed in details in my post in the ASL thread: https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28318044 In short, Snow made the exact defense that Bisu made one week earlier against Soma in the same spawn location. In both cases, at the time the busts start, Zerg has 29-30 army supply and Protoss has 18 army supply. In both cases 4 cannons are ready made, but Bisu only has 1 more warping in, while Snow has 3, plus 1 more zealot. I guess that's why casters thought he was safe probably? Because he made the same amount of defense (slightly more actually) that kept Bisu alive, so his response must be more or less standard right? Now there must be something wrong there obviously because he lost, but like Bonyth said, what's the point of picking imperfections in Snow's play? And why are we not doing the same for Soma (I can already count him letting the probe walk right in his main despite the lings guarding in front of the nat)? | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
i am ot sure about one thing, who started the personal matters . But will be honest i dont even know who is you so it was my mistake how i did it. But any case if i started then i have to say a sry for that. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 12 2025 01:34 Ze'ev wrote: I mean: Its hard to really look at Snows micro centric pvz and evaluate how it might've gone against Soma, because thats not even what he showed up and used. He didnt use micro centric builds. Was he trying to pull out some reaver harass and it didnt work? Was he microing his little heart out? No. He did not get the chance to. Usually SnOw wins his PvZ with really good tradinf with his death ball of units. He never got the chance to play like that. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
So my point is that the way that SNow is playing online can actually be detrimental to play offline cuz the pressure or his nerves issues im unsure is actually affecting his in game judgement and no playing like his normal self online. Is not like Snow all of sudden Snow is a terrible player that everyone figured him out cuz optimizations. In fact he destroyed Soma today and Soma played the 20 tricks and optimizations all he wanted but SNow basically made the perfect read. and funny enough also beat Hero with a 2 gateways opening. My point is that even with bad optimizations Snow is freaking Scary online. So there is hope for protoss and Snow particulary cuz he still has a lot of room to improve. Mini also beat Soma in bo7 too recently. in case you wanna see the game of Jd vs SNow i talk about. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 12 2025 06:33 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Btw if you press attention to how Snow play online and how he roll over his opponents. He seems to be predicting and mapping out his opponent a lot. If he wasnt a pro and he wasnt Snow i could literally claim he is actually maphacking online. Cant be stream cheating cuz there is always some kind of delay on Stream to do the stuff he does in game. Where he basically predicts opponent army movement. Counter attacks. Drop plays etc. Take a look at this game what he did vs Jaedong. Basically after the game Jaedong was left speechless how snow predicted such a Drop move. Even to the point to ask his chat LOL. So my point is that the way that SNow is playing online can actually be detrimental to play offline cuz the pressure or his nerves issues im unsure is actually affecting his in game judgement and no playing like his normal self online. Is not like Snow all of sudden Snow is a terrible player that everyone figured him out cuz optimizations. In fact he destroyed Soma today and Soma played the 20 tricks and optimizations all he wanted but SNow basically made the perfect read. and funny enough also beat Hero with a 2 gateways opening. My point is that even with bad optimizations Snow is freaking Scary online. So there is hope for protoss and Snow particulary cuz he still has a lot of room to improve. Mini also beat Soma in bo7 too recently. in case you wanna see the game of Jd vs SNow i talk about. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlt7fsg3XlQ SnOw's decision making, awareness, army movements, and ability to read his opponent with the information he has make him an online behemoth. There is a reason he has won most of the online tournaments stacked with all ASL participants. He has 6 online tournament titles vs the best. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 12 2025 02:21 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: I mean....kind of? a few of the games ended early enough that what you said is true, but not all of them. We saw his gameplan in a few games, it was listless generic shit. It didn't come off like hes a multitasking-micro God. It came off like an untalented and bored stork.He did not get the chance to. Usually SnOw wins his PvZ with really good tradinf with his death ball of units. He never got the chance to play like that. | ||
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Ikirouta
Finland739 Posts
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 13 2025 20:46 Ikirouta wrote: I'd pay 5€ to watch a debate between TMNT and most of TL users + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://en.chessbase.com/Portals/All/2016/Carlsen_hamburg/ff/simul06.jpg) | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://c.tenor.com/5Y_-b8miAtAAAAAd/tenor.gif) were to combine.... + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-cHXOytRoP4y12Wv1-XJ8t3w-t500x500.png) our STREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENGTHHHHHHHHHHHHH + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/f4fcb6b8-67bc-46bc-89ca-c8b39c005446/scale-to-width/370) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://c.tenor.com/1uEFJxi82z4AAAAd/tenor.gif) | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
Most don't embrace the concept of making points and counter points. Some don't follow the basic rules of logic. Some just argue against a strawman argument. A few simply can't collect or use the right facts in the first place. But the worst kind just put in one-liners asserting their belief without justification, and sometimes even telling others they don't know anything, which is essentially the equivalent of jerking off. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 13 2025 23:45 TMNT wrote: Most TL users aren't great in debate though. Most don't embrace the concept of making points and counter points. Some don't follow the basic rules of logic. Some just argue against a strawman argument. A few simply can't collect or use the right facts in the first place. But the worst kind just put in one-liners asserting their belief without justification, and sometimes even telling others they don't know anything, which is essentially the equivalent of jerking off. you think your points are good? cherry picking what you want, to support your emotions about games, mostly snow losing against zerg in offline asl, and ignoring everything else? seriously what balance change you want to make? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 01:06 Soft_General_5023 wrote: you think your points are good? cherry picking what you want, to support your emotions about games, mostly snow losing against zerg in offline asl, and ignoring everything else? seriously what balance change you want to make? That is 100% not the case. In fact the way you present your argument here definitely fits my description above. All are your own conclusions/beliefs. There is absolutely no justifications/evidences to prove that I am cherry picking or ignoring everything else. Like if you want to prove I'm cherry picking, quote the relevant part, explain why this is not correct. No you're not doing it. Very few are doing it (backing up their arguments with proofs and explanation) . For example, in the last page when Kraekling presented the win rates of Snow and Soma as 40 and 63%. I refuted by pointing out how they are the wrong stats to use, and presented the right ones. In that case, maybe the accusation of cherry picking may apply (to Kraekling). | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 13 2025 23:45 TMNT wrote: As opposed to the TMNT route which is to freak out and insult everyone. An inspiration! Most TL users aren't great in debate though. Most don't embrace the concept of making points and counter points. Some don't follow the basic rules of logic. Some just argue against a strawman argument. A few simply can't collect or use the right facts in the first place. But the worst kind just put in one-liners asserting their belief without justification, and sometimes even telling others they don't know anything, which is essentially the equivalent of jerking off. On November 14 2025 01:06 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Dont forget raging like a preteen!you think your points are good? cherry picking what you want, to support your emotions about games, mostly snow losing against zerg in offline asl, and ignoring everything else? seriously what balance change you want to make? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 01:42 Ze'ev wrote: As opposed to the TMNT route which is to freak out and insult everyone. An inspiration! Dont forget raging like a preteen! You can't find a rage post from me in my entire posting history. But thanks for proving my point. You just put yourself in the worst category. Kind of madness that a user who consistently argues with critical thinking, presents accurate information, even provides visual evidences,... are met with such hostility. No one has provided counter arguments to the points made in posts #21 29 32 46 49. Yet false accusations or insults like post #62 and 64, or some sarcastic memes seem suffice. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 12 2025 06:33 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: In fact he destroyed Soma today and Soma played the 20 tricks and optimizations all he wanted but SNow basically made the perfect read. Btw hey eon I didn't understand what game you were referring to here but now I saw it as the KCM game. So in this game Soma dropped a Hydra Den right in front of Snow's eyes, but he also had Lair, then added more Hatch and Evo and looks like he was just about to play a macro game. Snow's reponse was to play a standard game and ignore the thread of Hydra bust, with only 2 Cannons built in front. And he destroyed Soma just by a simple Sair Speedlot rush (because Soma committed to too many things and couldn't afford the necessary defence). Also didn't help Soma that he expanded towards Snow's direction so the initial Zealot pressures did more damage than it should. So what did he read and how did he read here? Or in another timeline Soma could just decide to carry on with the Hydra bust and killed Snow? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
And the Soma vs Snow game wasnt even the most interesting shit i was talking about. Jaedong vs Snow was even more fascinating. Specially if you check Jaedong stream to see post game analysis. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 07:03 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Snow made gateway first then delayed his scouting until very late. He never actually scouted Soma natural but sent 3 zealots to the second hatchery. He played with incompleted information till corsair but delayed his assimilator at the natural to get a faster citadel with zealot speed timing to counter Soma hydras. Im not sure how Soma commited to many things is good here. But then when he does it in a game where he wins it turn out into AH How protoss can know ahh he made spire den at the same time etc. But well. Your skill is dogshit so i can excuse those. I actually understood that well with the queen vs shuttle game. The interesting bit is that you are extremely critical about a zerg losing but never about a protoss. Do you realized that ? We never look at mistakes. We never found blunders. What we do is excuse them as the matchup being imbalanced. And the Soma vs Snow game wasnt even the most interesting shit i was talking about. Jaedong vs Snow was even more fascinating. Specially if you check Jaedong stream to see post game analysis. You understand that in every sport and e-sport out there, there are coaches whose skills are inferior to the players, and on top of that there are also analysts who neither coach nor play, but when it comes to understanding and analysing of the game they are second to none right? Keep talking to yourself that my skill is dogshit is, like I said, just your way of jerking off to the idea that your argument is any better than mine. Notice that when it comes to Bonyth who sides with my argument, you can't play the same card lmao. Also madness that you are still talking about that Shuttle vs Queen game as if I'm the only one who says Queen threw the game. Not just your average TLers, all the fucking pros watching that game said the same thing. I guess their skills are dogshit too? But, move on to the main point. So you're saying you can't explain how Snow "made the perfect read" there? As I don't see it anywhere in your post? Reminder that I want to know how he came to that decision of not building more cannons and go for the sair speedlot timing, not a mere description of what he did (which is what you wrote) (note that I already have an idea of why he did it , but just want to hear your analysis first) | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
565 Posts
On November 13 2025 23:45 TMNT wrote: Most TL users aren't great in debate though. Most don't embrace the concept of making points and counter points. Some don't follow the basic rules of logic. Some just argue against a strawman argument. A few simply can't collect or use the right facts in the first place. But the worst kind just put in one-liners asserting their belief without justification, and sometimes even telling others they don't know anything, which is essentially the equivalent of jerking off. step away from computer and take a walk you are very angry at the moment and ruining this thread | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 14 2025 01:37 TMNT wrote: I refuted by pointing out how they are the wrong stats to use you decide alone what stats are "right", everyrhing else is wrong seriously what balance change you want to make? | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4235 Posts
On November 13 2025 23:45 TMNT wrote: Most TL users aren't great in debate though. Most don't embrace the concept of making points and counter points. Some don't follow the basic rules of logic. Some just argue against a strawman argument. A few simply can't collect or use the right facts in the first place. But the worst kind just put in one-liners asserting their belief without justification, and sometimes even telling others they don't know anything, which is essentially the equivalent of jerking off. Bro, I really admire your tenacity in trying to have a fact based conversation around this topic, but you are wasting your time and energy here. You will achieve nothing, but not because you don't have a point or because you are arguing your point incorrectly.. but because people to whom you're trying to make the point to don't want to listen. It's just that simple. There can't be anything wrong with Brood War, because Brood War is as close to a "perfect game" that there can be, don't you know? So all the stats and analysis in the world will not convince anyone that does not want to be convinced. No matter what you will say, this is a battle already lost. Unfortunately. It is what it is. Have a good one, nonetheless. Cheers  | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 14 2025 09:44 TMNT wrote: You understand that in every sport and e-sport out there, there are coaches whose skills are inferior to the players, and on top of that there are also analysts who neither coach nor play, but when it comes to understanding and analysing of the game they are second to none right? Keep talking to yourself that my skill is dogshit is, like I said, just your way of jerking off to the idea that your argument is any better than mine. Notice that when it comes to Bonyth who sides with my argument, you can't play the same card lmao. Also madness that you are still talking about that Shuttle vs Queen game as if I'm the only one who says Queen threw the game. Not just your average TLers, all the fucking pros watching that game said the same thing. I guess their skills are dogshit too? But, move on to the main point. So you're saying you can't explain how Snow "made the perfect read" there? As I don't see it anywhere in your post? Reminder that I want to know how he came to that decision of not building more cannons and go for the sair speedlot timing, not a mere description of what he did (which is what you wrote) (note that I already have an idea of why he did it , but just want to hear your analysis first) If i understood correctly you consider yourself a very high analytical person that never played the game or got any kind of foot on it. And Then i should respect your opinion cuz you take the stats that matter to you. For example only picking Finals as stats. You and bonyth Do that shit aswell. Protoss beat zerg very well before finals in the same sets of but for some reason we only focus on Finals. huh ? If you dont understand build orders and strategy behind such build orders how are you supossed to understand deep whats going on ? But i found interesting that you claim to understand when zerg loses but u dont when toss doesnt. I mean when zerg loses is mostly cuz he played bad lmao. Is not like you giving a real explanation of a game. Is mostly just a bot saying. HYDRASS GOOOD. And there is nothing wrong with that btw if you act like a casual. The problem is when you and Peaano act like you know shit about the game. I think with Bonyth there is not much to tell since mostly what he does is giving Stork quotes from a jinjinn video that is mostly trolls. But for some reason you take it very serious. Is funny u mention the pros about the queen shuttle when then Snow comes with a video and says my performance was shit nothing to do with balance. Then you dont believe him. And Now we both know you are not agreeing with FlaSh either. Cuz it doesnt help your narrative. You know TMNT Splinter was the sensei cuz he had very high combat skills himself think about that. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 14 2025 17:06 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Bro, I really admire your tenacity in trying to have a fact based conversation around this topic, but you are wasting your time and energy here. You will achieve nothing, but not because you don't have a point or because you are arguing your point incorrectly.. but because people to whom you're trying to make the point to don't want to listen. It's just that simple. There can't be anything wrong with Brood War, because Brood War is as close to a "perfect game" that there can be, don't you know? So all the stats and analysis in the world will not convince anyone that does not want to be convinced. No matter what you will say, this is a battle already lost. Unfortunately. It is what it is. Have a good one, nonetheless. Cheers In a perfect world we wouldnt get negative posts from you all the time you open your mouth. But here we are dont we shocker ? xD Remember when you got banned from that WC3 community cuz you annoyed the organizer with your complains ? This is not an attack to you. But you should be carefull before thinking too high about yourself. | ||
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SCRVN
135 Posts
On November 14 2025 17:06 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Brood War is as close to a "perfect game" that there can be It means Protoss is the weakest race and PvZ is "a bit" unbalanced matchup! People can explain why a game, a series, a Protoss player lose in PvZ but no one can explain why 100% stats show Protoss is the weakest race in more 25 years. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 14:46 Soft_General_5023 wrote: you decide alone what stats are "right", everyrhing else is wrong seriously what balance change you want to make? No I don't decide which one is right. Logic dictates which stats should be used (and I already explained why the stats he used were not correct ones to apply). I can't believe that has to be explained to a person. If I tell you humans need oxygen to stay alive does that sound to you that I just decide that principle? Re balance changes I stated many times it has to be done via maps. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 17:06 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Bro, I really admire your tenacity in trying to have a fact based conversation around this topic, but you are wasting your time and energy here. You will achieve nothing, but not because you don't have a point or because you are arguing your point incorrectly.. but because people to whom you're trying to make the point to don't want to listen. It's just that simple. There can't be anything wrong with Brood War, because Brood War is as close to a "perfect game" that there can be, don't you know? So all the stats and analysis in the world will not convince anyone that does not want to be convinced. No matter what you will say, this is a battle already lost. Unfortunately. It is what it is. Have a good one, nonetheless. Cheers Don't worry I'm totally aware of that. There has never been a person on the internet who is convinced by another person on the internet over a debate (exaggeration of course but you know what it means). It's just kind of my pastime. Also there's the hope that neutral readers may pick up useful information and people who side with us can see the evidences clearer for themselves. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 17:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: If i understood correctly you consider yourself a very high analytical person that never played the game or got any kind of foot on it. And Then i should respect your opinion cuz you take the stats that matter to you. For example only picking Finals as stats. You and bonyth Do that shit aswell. Protoss beat zerg very well before finals in the same sets of but for some reason we only focus on Finals. huh ? If you dont understand build orders and strategy behind such build orders how are you supossed to understand deep whats going on ? But i found interesting that you claim to understand when zerg loses but u dont when toss doesnt. I mean when zerg loses is mostly cuz he played bad lmao. Is not like you giving a real explanation of a game. Is mostly just a bot saying. HYDRASS GOOOD. And there is nothing wrong with that btw if you act like a casual. The problem is when you and Peaano act like you know shit about the game. I think with Bonyth there is not much to tell since mostly what he does is giving Stork quotes from a jinjinn video that is mostly trolls. But for some reason you take it very serious. Is funny u mention the pros about the queen shuttle when then Snow comes with a video and says my performance was shit nothing to do with balance. Then you dont believe him. And Now we both know you are not agreeing with FlaSh either. Cuz it doesnt help your narrative. You know TMNT Splinter was the sensei cuz he had very high combat skills himself think about that. Don't be such a stupid arguer eon. If you want to argue, you always have to do two things: get facts right and respond to the points the others actually make. Instead, what you do most of the times are: get facts wrong, and respond to a misinterpreted version of what the others say (or totally focus on something else). It makes talking to you very unpleasant and the conversation keeps digressing. You may not intend to but that makes you become like a troll. I shouldn't bring him here anyway, but Bonyth has said several times on this board that P is the weakest race at the top level, let alone weaker compared to Z. Let's not act like all he does is posting Stork's video lol. The point about finals stats. No it's not the only thing we focus on. Notice there's the global, lifetime stats that show Z is favored too? Which in your existence you have never addressed. The finals stats are just the more visible one, easier to demonstrate the point. And why don't we look at stats before finals you asked? We do. That's the fucking global progaming stats right there for you. There are also ladder stats if you prefer S rank level analysis. Also, let me explain this to you like for a 10 year old: just because some Ps beat some Zs Ro4 8 16 or 24 doesn't mean you can use that to disprove everything else that shows Z>P. The imbalances are not that huge that no P can ever beat a Z, okay? Tier 1 Ps will always beat tier 2 Zs and vice versa. That's what happens in earlier rounds and that's exactly how the overall win rate of any matchup is always close to, but not quite, 50%. Snow and Bisu (best P at the moment) beating Effort and Larva (both hovering around K League and the low end of Major Proleague) should not indicate anything about balance if you just look at the results and not the gameplay. Now, I literally said in post #21 that Flash's probably right in a general sense, but I disagree with some specific points in the video. In the same post, and a few others, I also acknowledged what Snow messed up in that game (his sim city). I always acknowledge when Protoss loss fair and square (like the Knockout game in the finals). I'm very specific about details and never make bot-like rage posts "hydras good protoss bad" like you describe. If you accuse someone of something, show some fucking evidences. Otherwise you're full of shit. Snow's video is him being critical of himself and not wanting to blame balance for his loss. It's a far more vague concept than assessing the state of a game, as the Shuttle vs Queen video is the real time reactions of their colleagues watching that game. Are you fucking telling me that every single one of them is wrong in thinking Queen was ahead in that game?Not one pro can have a correct read of who's ahead in a PvZ. Not one Korean viewer or TL user either. Only you? Explain that please. And for the million times, don't dodge the question. Please, answer how Snow "made the perfect read" in the KCM S4W2 game above. Because no amount of bullshit you throw here can allow you to chicken out from that. Remember, you have to prove your points by merits. Not by thinking highly of yourself and considering everyone else just knows shit. That's just you jerking off in front of your PC screen. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 14 2025 19:01 TMNT wrote: No I don't decide which one is right. Logic dictates which stats should be used (and I already explained why the stats he used were not correct ones to apply). I can't believe that has to be explained to a person. If I tell you humans need oxygen to stay alive does that sound to you that I just decide that principle? Re balance changes I stated many times it has to be done via maps. So what do you consider balanced maps in pvz? Blitz Y  ? Knockout trench was meant to reduce hydra bust. Is that balanced?In last 2 ASLs we had 2 Protosses in semifinals, this season very nearly PvP finals, be it Bisu not misclicked last game. most ZvP wins were very close 4:3 or so But yeah, ZvP is imba LoL Your favourite Snow loses beacause he played badly, as he himself admitted but you don't believe him and keep saying it was ZvP imba Artosis's pusagi rants are at least funny, and he is an A rank player. "Basement dwellers on TeamLiquid looking like academic journalists" LoL | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
Hmm, what could be the reason? Either (1) it's almost as if one matchup is easier than the other, which suggests imbalances in both matchups, and T>Z and Z>P or (2) no, ZvP is not imba, Z players are just better, but in that case, it means either Ts are just better than Zs too (how come?), or Z=P but T>Z (oh the double standard) It's almost as if anyone who tries to deny ZvP imbalance is just throwing logics out of the window. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
Also we no doing another queen vs shuttle with now this game you slow skill nerd. I never said Queen wasnt ahead in that game. I said he didnt throw the game as u claim. You cant throw a game for no having a +1 attack at that timing. There was more to it. And i explained 2 or 3 times to you and the other low skill fake FlaSh from this forum that it wasnt as easy as you guys see and claim.. So zvp is not as imbalanced as u claim afterall if protoss can beat zerg. I mean shit this game is from 1998 right ? Why do we even have protoss players if the race is so imbalanced. If you think about it all those protoss players could switch and in 4-5 years period they should be a proper zerg of terran if they really wanted dont you think ? You telling me Protoss progamers are earning less money purposely from competing for no reason ? Just switch to Terran or zerg Bro. Get the rewards. Snow could be a 6 ASL champions with zerg if he made the switch when he retired from SC2 by now. I dont even recall a single Protoss progamer saying. fuck this im playing Zerg this season. You know who actually decided to play other races in progaming ? zerg players. Julyzerg beat Chojja with terran. Savior tried vs Gorush but it didnt work out. Light switched to protoss and while he didnt qulify his toss was decent. Shit he beat me lol in that KSL qualifier. And FLaSh that got third place with Random in ASL. I dont remember ever seeing a freaking Protoss picking Terran to play vs zerg. Or pick zerg to play vs zerg. You call me stupid all the time. But Then are Protoss progamers so braindead that they basically giving up their chances of ever winning something cuz they are playing protoss ? There is positive WR for other races over Protoss in championships that is true. At the same time is also the same people winning multiple championships over others. And i can assist stuff like Terran doesnt die if he play perfect. The issue is that is almost impossible to play perfect as terran. When it happens the only you can do is admire it. Anyway im getting bored again with you. See you in the next ASL. And cry over that SNow is losing to idk who this time cuz he will. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 20:52 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Really strong arguments from you here.In last 2 ASLs we had 2 Protosses in semifinals, this season very nearly PvP finals, be it Bisu not misclicked last game. most ZvP wins were very close 4:3 or so But yeah, ZvP is imba LoL Your favourite Snow loses beacause he played badly, as he himself admitted but you don't believe him and keep saying it was ZvP imba I mean, if you're going for the appeal to authority route (aka "your argument is only as valid as your rank on the ladder"), then we have the best foreign player here who also happens to play Protoss and advocates for ZvP imba. You saying? Then the could-haves and would-haves. If we're going that way too Protoss is already on 20 ASLs lmao. Are you also aware that if not for Soma throwing the Dominator game, he could have 4-1'd Bisu too? The players never blame their losses on imbalance. It makes a bad image of them. Snow doesn't want to attribute his loss on ZvP imba (and rightly so), but that doesn't mean imbalances don't exist. I mean Flash even acknowledged TvZ in the past was imba (unloseable for Terrans on those maps - his literal word) So you are a ZvP imba denial. Try to explain my post #80 above then. As for this: So what do you consider balanced maps in pvz? Blitz Y ? Knockout trench was meant to reduce hydra bust. Is that balanced?It has to be looked from both point of view: gameplay and stats (but the former will decide the outcome of the latter). From gamplay pov, it has to eliminate the information ambiguity P has to suffer in the early game. But there is no way to change that unless you modify the game. So the only solution is to make the consequence of such ambiguity less punishing, i.e. not losing the game immediately from hydra bust. So without changing things like cannon building time or hydra upgrade time, the only solution is to make the impact of hydra bust less powerful via maps, i.e. longer rush distance, high ground nat,.. Yes, Knockout is the current mapmaker solution to improve that. Why do you think they are trying to improve ZvP maps if the matchup doesn't have any issue then? If long term we see less stupid Hydra busts and a win rate closer to 50% then it's fine and the map template has to change to revolve around maps like Knockout. But the other two matchups have a say to but that's the story for another day. | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
For example, in the last page when Kraekling presented the win rates of Snow and Soma as 40 and 63%. I refuted by pointing out how they are the wrong stats to use, and presented the right ones. In that case, maybe the accusation of cherry picking may apply (to Kraekling). TMNT, you insist that if only we used the right stats, whatever I was saying was no longer true. But I was just saying, looking at the stats of Soma/Snow, we should expect Soma to win the series. I do not insist that PvZ is perfectly balanced. I don't even know why you disagree with what I said otherwise, other than that you're a disagreeable person. I'm just saying that, given what we know about both players and given how they played in the finals, the 4-2 outcome seems right. + Show Spoiler + Ok, I don't understand what follows from using the other stats. Let's say you're right and the relevant stats are their respective overall 2025 PvZ win rates at 55% and 60%. What does it imply and what does it change? Is the 4-2 in the finals more of an upset? Would 4-3 be more fair? What would it have meant for PvZ balance, had Snow won the finals? How can we use their 2025 win rates to say anything about PvZ balance in general? They probably had different stats in the year before (2024), what can we use those stats for? Can we pick two other players and use their respective stats to make statements about PvZ balance? So like you said even you believe PvZ is not perfectly balanced, then the 5% win rate gap between them may be (partially) explained by the unfairness of the matchup right? Well, yes - it could be - who knows - I don't think its possible to make any statement on this point. I do not insist that PvZ is perfectly balanced. I'm just saying that, given what we know about both players and given how they played in the finals, the 4-2 outcome seems right. However, wouldn't your argument regarding the imbalance be even stronger if you used 63% and 40% win rates instead? This would mean that the imbalance is at 23% which is a bigger number than 5%. if only we used the right stats But what is the statement that you seem to be making an argument for, in regards to this finals, the stats of the players in it, and PvZ balance? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 21:28 Kraekkling wrote: TMNT, you insist that if only we used the right stats, whatever I was saying was no longer true. But I was just saying, looking at the stats of Soma/Snow, we should expect Soma to win the series. I do not insist that PvZ is perfectly balanced. I don't even know why you disagree with what I said otherwise, other than that you're a disagreeable person. I'm just saying that, given what we know about both players and given how they played in the finals, the 4-2 outcome seems right. Let's get this clear first. Because I think we do agree on some points. This is what you said on #31: However, the outcome of this series in particular (4-2) is to be solely explained by player skill and how they played during the series I expected Soma to win the series too (but for different reasons to yours). I said that much before the game too. What I disagree is the word "solely" there. I said that much on #32. Because you seem to imply that with such a discrepancy in win rate in the matchup (40 vs 63%), it's clear Soma should win based on skills. I pointed out that the discrepancy is not that big, and provided a bunch of details and explanation in #46. My point is matchup imbalance plays a role in the loss too. I'm not arguing how much though, as no one can quantify. Read this important part again please: I mean if their relevant win rates are actually 40 and 63% then I'd agree that the skill gap is too big to bring imbalances into the discussion. That's like comparing Snow's 69% in PvT to JYJ's 50% TvP, in which you have the best PvT player vs a tier-3-or-something TvP player and PvT imbalance has no business in the matter. In this case we just have the best (or top 2) PvZ player vs the best (or top 2) ZvP player. Re the part in spoiler: Just like in any sport, you have to use recent stats to judge the quality of players/teams in recent time. That goes without saying honestly. Snow has improved his PvZ significantly in recent years, that using old stats is no longer relevant. Plus, you only used ASL stats, which have limited sample size and are heavily influenced by groups and brackets. You have to use eloboard stats. The score of the finals, be it 4-0 4-1 4-2 4-3 to either side, doesn't matter at all if we're talking about balance in the grand scheme. Scores from best of series vary wildly depending on the day. You can have player A beating player B 4-0 today and losing 0-4 the very next day. You can have Bo9 series when A leads B 4-0 (which if it's a Bo7, the series would end right there and people would say A is superior to B in skill), but then B does a reverse sweep and wins 5-4 (which you'd never see if it's not a Bo9). Forget about the score. And you should never make conclusions about players' overall skill based on one series. And no we shouldn't pick any two players at a given period of time to talk about balance either. We should look at the global stats. And no it's not better to use 40 and 63% lol. For two reasons: one it's not correct, two I'm trying to make the correct assessment of the situation, not cherry picking stats to push an agenda. | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
What I disagree is the word "solely" there. but everyone commenting on the series is pointing out mistakes on Snow's part which lost him the series. Which is why people say, we shouldn't use this series to make an argument about balance. look, if you take the Queens Gambit opening in Chess and you look up the stats, its like 52%-48% in favour of white. Then you have a series of two players playing the Queens Gambit in best of seven, one guy on the White pieces and the other guy always with Black. However, three of the games end because Black blunders a piece during the first 10 moves. This is what the players say in an interview afterwards, and what everyone else saw. Do you agree that we shouldn't use this series to make comments on the Queens Gambit opening? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
As for this point: On November 14 2025 21:47 Kraekkling wrote: but everyone commenting on the series is pointing out mistakes on Snow's part which lost him the series. Which is why people say, we shouldn't use this series to make an argument about balance. Yeah. So why Snow's mistakes are so punishing but Soma's aren't. Isn't that exactly why people complain about the matchup balance? Game 2 on Dominator as I detailed in this post, is that a big mistake, let alone a game ending mistake, considering he made the same defence that Bisu also made and succesfully defended Soma? Game 4 on Polestar, Snow made a huge blunder with his wall, but what was the punishment for Soma's failed Ling bust? But more importantly, note that Protoss' mistakes come from something they can't reliably control (information). The real question is why are they put into such spot (scraping for life against Hydra threat) in the first place? FYI, my take is Soma won game 1 by map and game 6 fairly, while Snow won game 3 fairly and game 5 by build order. These are the games I have less issues with. To sum up, honestly any series with some cheap hydra busts can be used to make an argument about balance yeah. It's an age old problem I don't know why it's that controversial to some here. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
If you ask me Snow strategy in that map was the worst possible thing he could have done and yet you are not even critical of that and is a Map win for zerg. Why ? How can you even tell Soma is not being punish for his mistakes. Wasnt he instant punish for going with mutas to the main in Radeon and also failing to defend early agression that hurt his early game ? So there is a player playing like freaking pure shit in the Final and we should expect also that he punish Soma mistakes on top of that. When Soma makes mistakes in proleague or bo7 online he is instant punish. Hell he was doing a ladder race with Rush the other day and i saw a game vs protoss on knock out that made him sweat so hard i was like This guy played better than SNow.. If you want people to take you serious start to also pointing or astleast try to understand protoss mistakes.Even if it hurt your soul. You will learn more from it instead of sticking to your stats used as you please to prove your points. | ||
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Darkwhite
Norway352 Posts
On November 14 2025 21:47 Kraekkling wrote: but everyone commenting on the series is pointing out mistakes on Snow's part which lost him the series. Which is why people say, we shouldn't use this series to make an argument about balance. look, if you take the Queens Gambit opening in Chess and you look up the stats, its like 52%-48% in favour of white. Then you have a series of two players playing the Queens Gambit in best of seven, one guy on the White pieces and the other guy always with Black. However, three of the games end because Black blunders a piece during the first 10 moves. This is what the players say in an interview afterwards, and what everyone else saw. Do you agree that we shouldn't use this series to make comments on the Queens Gambit opening? "Visible mistakes, so doesn't say anything about balance" is pants on head logic. StarCraft is hard, so even the best players make mistakes all the time, whether they win or lose. Mistakes become extra super visible you lose the game, but they happen all the time. Even when players lose forced blind RPS-style guesses, you can argue that they made the wrong guess. You can't wait for only perfect games with no mistakes to figure out the balance, because those games don't exist. The way StarCraft works, poor balance means that the margin of error is smaller for the disfavored race, i.e. there are more potential mistakes that are harder to avoid, or there are more blind guesses you have to make where the odds are stacked against you. It's very similar to Chess, again: black should probably hold the draw if they make no mistakes, and black can easily win games, but it's harder and smaller mistakes are more punishing for black. There are tons of lines which are equal given perfect engine play, but still are "imbalanced" in the sense that holding on to equality requires much more accurate play from one side. It is true that this series, in isolation, doesn't really say that much balance. There's nothing outrageous about Snow losing to Soma. But as yet another nail in the coffin, on top of PvZ statistics since forever, and seeing how much every top Protoss struggles with the scouting denial hydra bust guessing game against even middling Zerg players, it's hard to not see the pattern. And a totally failed Zergling all-in not being a game-losing mistake should tell you something about where the margin of error is in PvZ. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 20:54 TMNT wrote: There's also this simple fact I'd like to hear the explanation from the Zerg contingent: every single Zerg player out there has much better ZvP than ZvT win rate. Hmm, what could be the reason? Either (1) it's almost as if one matchup is easier than the other, which suggests imbalances in both matchups, and T>Z and Z>P or (2) no, ZvP is not imba, Z players are just better, but in that case, it means either Ts are just better than Zs too (how come?), or Z=P but T>Z (oh the double standard) It's almost as if anyone who tries to deny ZvP imbalance is just throwing logics out of the window. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
I will only reply to this as it's getting too long and this is the only point I raised at the beginning: On November 14 2025 21:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I already adressed the Snow game post above. And how it fit with Snow online predictions and mapping out his opponent compared to offline games. You cant really pick only 1 detail in this situation cuz there is more to it. Is basically an snowballing from his ingame decisions from the get go. And is something that rarely happens in his offline games compared to online. So you still haven't addressed how Snow "made the perfect read" after 3 posts then? Obviously the game snowballs from the early game when Snow's first 3 Zealots deny mining from Soma's 2nd Hatch for so long and even reduce its HP to 50% lol. So it's more of him piling up from his lead rather than the "perfect read" then huh? How can he "read" when even you already admitted that he played with incomplete information lol? There's no way for Snow to know if Soma wouldn't just pull everything he has there and pump Hydras nonstop and kill him. Now his small lead in early game reduce that risk a little bit and probably was the reason behind his bold choice of ignoring the threat of Hydras and delaying 2nd gas. This right here actually shows your lack of empathy for the Protoss side that they have to make choices and take risks in this matchup almost every game to suceed. | ||
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blackmanpl
68 Posts
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
Game 2 on Dominator as I detailed in this post, is that a big mistake, let alone a game ending mistake, considering he made the same defence that Bisu also made and succesfully defended Soma? Well of course. If Soma was able to end the game right there vs Snow, and Snow had perfect information beforehand, Snow must have made an error. IF the game state vs Bisu was exactly the same, and Soma wasn't able to end the game right there, it must have been an error on Soma's part, to not be able to win the game vs Bisu. ESPECIALLY if Snow made no severe error, as you imply. It seems to me much more likely that Soma analyzed his game vs Bisu, thought to himself "I should have been able to end the game in that situation", and then did it vs Snow. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 14 2025 23:30 TMNT wrote: As for Roaring Currents, enough talks about that map being Zerg favored have already taken. We even have Zerg supporters admitting that here too. There are currently no reliable strategies for P on that map. All the P wins outside of ASL come from exchanges in the early or mid game that titls the favor towards the P and it snowballs from there. But if Z turtle on 4 bases like they do in ASL, the late game is heavily in their favor. I will only reply to this as it's getting too long and this is the only point I raised at the beginning: So you still haven't addressed how Snow "made the perfect read" after 3 posts then? Obviously the game snowballs from the early game when Snow's first 3 Zealots deny mining from Soma's 2nd Hatch for so long and even reduce its HP to 50% lol. So it's more of him piling up from his lead rather than the "perfect read" then huh? How can he "read" when even you already admitted that he played with incomplete information lol? There's no way for Snow to know if Soma wouldn't just pull everything he has there and pump Hydras nonstop and kill him. Now his small lead in early game reduce that risk a little bit and probably was the reason behind his bold choice of ignoring the threat of Hydras and delaying 2nd gas. This right here actually shows your lack of empathy for the Protoss side that they have to make choices and take risks in this matchup almost every game to suceed. Since you love stats. Roaring currents Protoss vs zerg PZ: 44 wins, 48 losses (47.8%) Personally those stats are not showing to me that this map is a zerg auto win like you claim. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 14 2025 23:37 Kraekkling wrote: Well of course. If Soma was able to end the game right there vs Snow, and Snow had perfect information beforehand, Snow must have made an error. IF the game state vs Bisu was exactly the same, and Soma wasn't able to end the game right there, it must have been an error on Soma's part, to not be able to win the game vs Bisu. ESPECIALLY if Snow made no severe error, as you imply. It seems to me much more likely that Soma analyzed his game vs Bisu, thought to himself "I should have been able to end the game in that situation", and then did it vs Snow. Both Bisu and Snow didn't have perfect information. That's why the standard response to Hydra bust is to make some cannons first, then add more on the way depending on the ongoing situation. That's why we say the margin for error for Protoss in this matchup is razor thin compared to Zerg. The outcome in each game is different and there are small reasons for that. But my point is that if the matchup is balanced, P shouldn't be put in that spot in the first place. Notice too in the game vs Bisu, after the bust failed, Soma was still ahead but he overdid the Muta harass (after the Hydra bust). He had 4 bases while Bisu was completely all in on 2 bases with garbage probe count, and I have no idea why he let Bisu zone his hydras into a hole and storm the shit out of them. That's the margin for error for Zerg. It's almost as if when you fail you have a second chance but for Protoss when you fail you don't. | ||
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blackmanpl
68 Posts
Right now I'm watching Bisu trash Soma absolutely with standard play Live. 4:1 so far. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
And take them as absolutes lol. The way he talks is like Soma builds never fail or some shit when risk is maximum. This guy is a lost cause anyway. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 00:03 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Yeah i think if he played the game he would understand the bs he is talking. But he love to use stats etc to prove his points. And take them as absolutes lol. The way he talks is like Soma builds never fail or some shit when risk is maximum. This guy is a lost cause anyway. It's the way you misinterpret things, not the way I said. Same with your rant about Protoss players not switching to other races lol. You just keep arguing against a strawman. The game is obviously not balanced but not to the extreme that one race is banished out of existence. Skill gap makes up for the imbalances but it only works up to a certain point, that's why it manifests the most clear at the number of finals and titles. But I guess all of the above is too nuanced for you to understand. Your simple mind can only process as far as "do you play the game, what's your skill". What if I tell you I do play the game? Then you would say my opinions are only valid if I'm at A/S rank. Well my rank is also correlated to other factors like time dedicated, apm, in game decision making, etc. which has nothing to do with the case when we sit here and analyse games from the spectator point of view. What is your rank when you say Snow played like shit then? Do you think you need a progamer license to qualify for saying that? By the way, explain post #80 please. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 00:11 sas.Sziky wrote: just because of the many ignorant people. that was not a ling allin. Yeah you can say so. But this is more a terminology issue. There's no strict rule as to what is an all in. It's not like when you make 12 lings it's not all in but if you make one more it becomes all in. The point is the failed attempt should set him back far enough for him to not have a second chance to kill Protoss a few minutes later. Why? Because that attempt if successful would kill Protoss outright. You wouldn't want a failed DT rush (PvT) or a failed 2 Fac (TvP) that has the ability to follow up with another move that can kill the other race right? That doesn't seem fair. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
On November 15 2025 00:23 TMNT wrote: Yeah you can say so. But this is more a terminology issue. There's no strict rule as to what is an all in. It's not like when you make 12 lings it's not all in but if you make one more it becomes all in. The point is the failed attempt should set him back far enough for him to not have a second chance to kill Protoss a few minutes later. Why? Because that attempt if successful would kill Protoss outright. You wouldn't want a failed DT rush (PvT) or a failed 2 Fac (TvP) that has the ability to follow up with another move that can kill the other race right? That doesn't seem fair. as i said it was not a ling allin and. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
Roaring currents Protoss vs zerg PZ: 44 wins, 48 losses (47.8%) Or we also ignoring that on purpose Donatello be honest. | ||
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Darkwhite
Norway352 Posts
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
It should not be used to refer to builds which just need to do damage, even if falling behind when it fails. After the ling "all in" which Snow defended, he was very ahead. Whether it was 70-30 or 80-20 or whatever, hard to say. But even in a 80-20 situation, the player who is behind wins 2 out of 10 times. It was one of those games. It's literally 26 zerglings at ~28 supply (depending on how you count the dead zerglings). If that's not an all-in then the Zerg margin of error is way too generous. Thats, like, your opinion, man. The koreans don't call every build where Zerg makes units "all-in". If you really insist on crunching numbers, go ahead and calculate how much mining time Zerg is losing due to less drones, and how much Protoss invests into defense. OR you could just watch the game and see how the supply numbers evolve in the few minutes after the failed "all-in" edit: To explain a bit further on this specific timing - we see Soma doing this ling attack at 27 supply. This is btw the typical timing for Protoss to move out with 5 Zealots in a regular game, after a 9gate opening. I know this, because I died often enough to this stuff, specifically when not premaking a fucking overlord and being stuck at 27/27 once you see the Zealots coming. Its mostly up to the Protoss how far he wants to go there. In a normal game, they could either have a safer cannon or a faster Starport. If they went for the cannon, they are free to move out with 5 Zealots and Zerg must have lings ready. If they commit, you need 16-20 lings to defend. So while it might seem like Zerg having 26 lings at 27 supply is outlandish and "all-in", in reality it's not far off from what Zerg is forced to have anyways. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
Thats why i try TMNT to lock in into the games and focus on Snow mistakes but he clearly doesnt have any interest in that. For him Snow is playing as good as a protoss can play so who cares lol. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 14 2025 21:17 TMNT wrote: then we have the best foreign player here who also happens to play Protoss and advocates for ZvP imba. You saying? You mean Bonyth? I though he just quotes Stork in non serious way. If he advocates ZvP imba maybe he should talk his reasons and map/balance solutions himself It's funny though as he kills all foreign zergs with ease. You saying? | ||
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Darkwhite
Norway352 Posts
On November 15 2025 00:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: It was 22 zerglings. Do you need to take in consideration that Soma made 12 hatchery. So you can say Soma could be extra greedy with lings. That said. Soma was aiming to get way and more from that attack for sure. It was not a sucessful ling time from Soma side. So he was behind after this attack. With that said Snow still tried his best to make blunders. For example he gave away later on all his zealots to Soma lings and thats why the hydra timing hit it was over for him so quick. Thats why i try TMNT to lock in into the games and focus on Snow mistakes but he clearly doesnt have any interest in that. For him Snow is playing as good as a protoss can play so who cares lol. 4 extra build back at home during/after the attack. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
1) ignored every request to state his rank 2) ignored every stat that doesnt favour his conclusions and 3) refused to actually analyze the mistakes in a game in-depth so we can understand his indepth criticisms as well as his knowledge basis Almost likes he biased and doesn't know what the fuck hes talking about? hmmm | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
On November 15 2025 00:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: It was 22 zerglings. Do you need to take in consideration that Soma made 12 hatchery. So you can say Soma could be extra greedy with lings. That said. Soma was aiming to get way and more from that attack for sure. It was not a sucessful ling time from Soma side. So he was behind after this attack. With that said Snow still tried his best to make blunders. For example he gave away later on all his zealots to Soma lings and thats why the hydra timing hit it was over for him so quick. Thats why i try TMNT to lock in into the games and focus on Snow mistakes but he clearly doesnt have any interest in that. For him Snow is playing as good as a protoss can play so who cares lol. he made many mistakes but the main was the pylon as i said before. they don't even recognize that. for me they proved what i thought about them | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
zerg has a 44% WR vs Terran. Do you ever see zerg players complaining or screaming imba etc ? And still zerg is finding ways to win ASL. If this mf TMNT saw protoss with a 44% WR he will be asking blizzard to make a balance patch for sure. and 44% with the most insane roster of zerg players this earth knows btw. SK SOMA QUEEN JAEDONG HERO. And protoss is basically Snow Bisu Mini lol. And somehow the WR protoss vs zerg is closer to 50. Cuz Rain is retired or semi retired. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/pMAXpzF.png) If you actually compare talent pool vs talent pool i Swear to god Protoss is doing fantastic. 44% WR zerg vs terran gentleman. And here we are listening to this Surtur Brood player telling us all that bs and manipualting data as he wishes. Holyshit i went to eloboard to check the Roaring currets stats and i was expecting something crazy for protoss. like 20% WR cuz of the way he talks. then the score is so close that i couldnt believe my eyes. | ||
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SCRVN
135 Posts
A truth thing, even no one supports it, it's still true. An incorrect thing, even 100000000000 people support it, it's still wrong. Protoss is created for newbies, not for professional players or players really love the game. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 01:01 Soft_General_5023 wrote: You mean Bonyth? I though he just quotes Stork in non serious way. If he advocates ZvP imba maybe he should talk his reasons and map/balance solutions himself It's funny though as he kills all foreign zergs with ease. You saying? No he didn't. He's said several times on this forum that Protoss is the weakest race at the top level. Maybe you should ask him why he didn't elaborate more (hint: he doesn't like to engage much in forum bickerings like.... well, me) Your sense of logic is absolutely devoid. That he kills foreign Zs has no say in the matter. It's just a matter of who's better. Or maybe if you prefer that Bonyth is not more talented than say Sziky, then maybe at foreign level Protoss is strongest. I dont know. Ask them. None of them are at ASL level btw. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 01:05 Ze'ev wrote: It is telling that TMNT has 1) ignored every request to state his rank 2) ignored every stat that doesnt favour his conclusions and 3) refused to actually analyze the mistakes in a game in-depth so we can understand his indepth criticisms as well as his knowledge basis Almost likes he biased and doesn't know what the fuck hes talking about? hmmm Totally bullshit. Point 1 has no relevance. Point 2 and 3 are completely wrong. I have acknowledged on multiple occasions the mistakes from the Protoss side and the games Zerg won fair and square, and have tried to explain every stats thrown at me. There aren't many stats that don't favor my conclusion anyway lol. Citation please. What's even funnier is all the people arguing with me play Zerg and can you believe the amount of points I made that they ignored ? But yes I'm the biased one lolololol. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 02:06 TMNT wrote: "how good I am has nothing to do with how well I understand something" is obviously false, and even contradictory to your use of stork as a citation. On the one hand: authority means nothing, on the other hand, look at this authority which agrees with me!Totally bullshit. Point 1 has no relevance. Point 2 and 3 are completely wrong. I have acknowledged on multiple occasions the mistakes from the Protoss side and the games Zerg won fair and square, and have tried to explain every stats thrown at me. There aren't many stats that don't favor my conclusion anyway lol. Citation please. What's even funnier is all the people arguing with me play Zerg and can you believe the amount of points I made that they ignored ? But yes I'm the biased one lolololol. Eonzerg already gave you stats that contradicted yorur conclusions and has been talking about that throughout this thread, your literally just ignoring it. @analysis. no. i want real fucking "i know what im talking about" analysis of these games. give a beat for beat of the builds, how and what was misread, specificity. Show you are something more than a bad player with a chip on his shoulder: your claiming to have accurate conclusions about high level gameplay, I expect high level analysis not surface level concessions or claims. You cant do that because you cant play broodwar worth shit. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 00:27 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Can you explain Why do you say Roaring Currents is a zerg win map when the actual scores are these. Roaring currents Protoss vs zerg PZ: 44 wins, 48 losses (47.8%) Or we also ignoring that on purpose Donatello be honest. Because the map favors Zerg in late game but not every game they played come to late. I've never said it's a free win for Zerg on this map. They have to work quite a lot to reach to that stage, in the same way with Death Valley, that the win rate doesn't really reflect the advantage of Zerg here. All the games P won on this map outside of ASL are games in which Z opt for aggression early on but fail, or P secure an advantage early and snowball from there. If Z turtle and grow on 4 bases, like they did in ASL, they have a massive advantage in late game. The downside is the game would last 30 mins and demands a lot of effort. But in online play they mix in the strategy and sometimes the early agression works and sometimes it doesn't, like in a normal map, so the win rate looks more normally. As a Zerg player there's no way you can't admit that free 4 gas with one chokepoint to hold big push and long rush distance (so you're safer from zealot timing) isn't what you want as Zerg lol. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
we can extract data from that function and create a data set of 5 select zergs, terrans, and protoss to determine the winrates amongst player of similar skill tiers. If we can then also extract map data per player we can extract more data to guide our arguments. Also, which maps were bad for zerg but great for Protoss? I remember Troy as being a zerg nightmare. What other maps wete zerg nightmares? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 02:37 Ze'ev wrote: "how good I am has nothing to do with how well I understand something" is obviously false, and even contradictory to your use of stork as a citation. On the one hand: authority means nothing, on the other hand, look at this authority which agrees with me! Eonzerg already gave you stats that contradicted yorur conclusions and has been talking about that throughout this thread, your literally just ignoring it. @analysis. no. i want real fucking "i know what im talking about" analysis of these games. give a beat for beat of the builds, how and what was misread, specificity. Show you are something more than a bad player with a chip on his shoulder: your claiming to have accurate conclusions about high level gameplay, I expect high level analysis not surface level concessions or claims. You cant do that because you cant play broodwar worth shit. I've never used Stork as a citation lol. Learn to fucking read. Stork's claims have only ever been used as a counter response when someone used the authority fallacy, like when they cite a Zerg player saying something . Eon gave one stat on Roaring Currents lol, to which I replied above. There's nothing else that suggests P=Z. Let's say even if he's right on that and I'm wrong, then it's ONE map. But wait a minute, it's you yourself who also says that this map is Zerg favored. So what else do you have? Again. What are the stats that contradict my conclusion? A fucking quote please? Evidences where? Don't just say words and assume they are true, like your entire last paragraph here. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 02:44 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: isnt there a head to head data section in eloboard? we can extract data from that function and create a data set of 5 select zergs, terrans, and protoss to determine the winrates amongst player of similar skill tiers. If we can then also extract map data per player we can extract more data to guide our arguments. Also, which maps were bad for zerg but great for Protoss? I remember Troy as being a zerg nightmare. What other maps wete zerg nightmares? Won't work very well because of several factors. Rain hasn't played enough. If you count the 5th Protoss as Shuttle or Stork then it skews the data. Same for the 4th or 5th player for Terran, hard to decide between Sharp/JYJ/whatever. Flash was absent for long time, as was Soma, Larva, Effort. Some are farming in K League which skews the data a bit too. Then there's this whole thing of players in and out of form, taking breaks, personal matters, etc. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 02:46 TMNT wrote: I've never used Stork as a citation lol. Learn to fucking read. Stork's claims have only ever been used as a counter response when someone used the authority fallacy, like when they cite a Zerg player saying something . Eon gave one stat on Roaring Currents lol, to which I replied above. There's nothing else that suggests P=Z. Let's say even if he's right on that and I'm wrong, then it's ONE map. But wait a minute, it's you yourself who also says that this map is Zerg favored. So what else do you have? Again. What are the stats that contradict my conclusion? A fucking quote please? Evidences where? Don't just say words and assume they are true, like your entire last paragraph here. “we have the best foreign player here who also happens to play Protoss and advocates for ZvP imba. You saying? Using top players as an authority appeal^ “The players never blame their losses on imbalance. It makes a bad image of them.” ^ implicitly using players as an authority appeal (there statements would have authority but for social management reasons they arent saying anything) "Flash even acknowledged TvZ in the past was imba (unloseable for Terrans on those maps – his literal word" authority appeal ^ Eon was bringing up your inconsistent selection of data re ignoring ASL and just gave you a large dump of data showing zvp is only off by 2% Wheres your analysis little man? Your claiming to have the ability to understand the game at a high level; wheres the analysis? All you give is insults (immature, sad) and surface level commentary (a bad player confuses commentary for analysis. do you even know what analysis looks like? no indication you do). You want people to take you seriously give: decision trees, specific timings, explanations of scout patterns in the game, etc. You cant do that because your just a whiny bad player. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 15 2025 01:51 TMNT wrote: I dont know I agree. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 02:59 Ze'ev wrote: “we have the best foreign player here who also happens to play Protoss and advocates for ZvP imba. You saying? Using top players as an authority appeal^ What the actual fuck? You literally deleted the first part of the sentence that says "if you're going for the appeal to authority route (aka "your argument is only as valid as your rank on the ladder")" - I literally used that to the other poster that if he uses authority appeal (because he cited A rank Artosis), he won't win the argument. Like I said, learn to read. “The players never blame their losses on imbalance. It makes a bad image of them.” ^ implicitly using players as an authority appeal (there statements would have authority but for social management reasons they arent saying anything) This has nothing to do with authority appeal. And this is also a response to an authority appeal by the other poster. "Flash even acknowledged TvZ in the past was imba (unloseable for Terrans on those maps – his literal word" authority appeal ^ This is just another fucking response to Sziky appealing to authority by citing a video in which Flash says "skills matter". I pointed out that in the same video Flash also says "TvZ is imba". Eon was bringing up your inconsistent selection of data re ignoring ASL and just gave you a large dump of data showing zvp is only off by 2% I didn't ignore ASL data you idiot. The eloboard data includes recent ASL data in itself. The stats Eon screenshot'd above are not only not contradictory to my point, but they are exactly the ones I have always talked about. That, plus the Kespa win rates. Note that I'm also an advocate of Tesagi and T > Z, for which our guy Eon here was very happy when I posted these horrible win rates for Z in ZvT. I guess when it's ZvT I'm so knowledgable but when it comes to ZvP I'm only talking shite then, but sure I'm the biased one lol. Also it's clearly at this point you haven't followed this matter sufficiently enough to join the conversation. Wheres your analysis little man? Your claiming to have the ability to understand the game at a high level; wheres the analysis? All you give is insults (immature, sad) and surface level commentary (a bad player confuses commentary for analysis. do you even know what analysis looks like? no indication you do). Go ahead and count the insults and see who starts first and who uses more? Go. With the amount of text I've put in this thread if they are all insults I'd have been banned to eternity lol. You want people to take you seriously give: decision trees, specific timings, explanations of scout patterns in the game, etc. You cant do that because your just a whiny bad player. No one has ever done that in this thread . And you yourself haven't done shit so climb off your high horse. Where are your decision trees lmao? The most detailed analyses are just from me and Kraekling. Eon Zerg himself gave fuckall. I asked him like 3 times to explain Snow's decision on that KCM game he couldn't. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
I agree. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
But feel free to make sarcastic posts like a 10 year old. For all our Zerg supporters here, somebody please try to explain how all the Zerg pros have better ZvP than ZvT and the game is still balanced lol? | ||
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Puosu
7003 Posts
On November 15 2025 03:40 TMNT wrote: Im a dork | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/s8lcwIU.png?fb) TMNT is the new MTCN. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10328 Posts
On November 15 2025 01:27 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Look at this shit. zerg has a 44% WR vs Terran. Do you ever see zerg players complaining or screaming imba etc ? And still zerg is finding ways to win ASL. If this mf TMNT saw protoss with a 44% WR he will be asking blizzard to make a balance patch for sure. and 44% with the most insane roster of zerg players this earth knows btw. SK SOMA QUEEN JAEDONG HERO. And protoss is basically Snow Bisu Mini lol. And somehow the WR protoss vs zerg is closer to 50. Cuz Rain is retired or semi retired. If you actually compare talent pool vs talent pool i Swear to god Protoss is doing fantastic. 44% WR zerg vs terran gentleman. And here we are listening to this Surtur Brood player telling us all that bs and manipualting data as he wishes. Holyshit i went to eloboard to check the Roaring currets stats and i was expecting something crazy for protoss. like 20% WR cuz of the way he talks. then the score is so close that i couldnt believe my eyes. In fairness, Soma didnt have to play any Terrans in brackets (though the only terran i would really have him disadvantaged to would be FlaSh), and Soulkey's 4 peat was pretty much all Zergs and Protosses, with only really the big challenge having been a Ro8 match against Light as a serious Terran contender (he was always going to smash Rush and Sharp). So that's why zergs aren't complaining about ZvT right now when there's... not really much to complain about because we have too little sample size and results at the moment in bracket stage in the recent years. | ||
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Malinor
Germany4734 Posts
Game 1 Cannot find a VOD with korean commentary. That is unfortunate. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 04:41 Ze'ev wrote: zzz so no analysis then? No reason to take a newbie seriously if hes just throwing around insults, freaking out like a child, and refusing (and unable) to substantiate his opinion as the least bit credible. Fucking insane that after everything you said was already proved wrong by me, you can keep going on like this. Another one proving me right in this post. Keep jerking off then. Also madness that there are multiple stats laid down that suggest the ZvP imba and none of the Zerg supporters here can explain, yet the one who laid them down is accused of ignoring the stats. You lot are full of shit and are just talking like trolls. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 05:17 TMNT wrote: still no analysis eh? Just admit you can't give analysis and your claim is therefore baseless. If you knew what you were talking about you would just explain: instead I get childish rage and shallow commentary but never any analysis. Fucking insane that after everything you said was already proved wrong by me, you can keep going on like this. Another one proving me right in this post. Keep jerking off then. Also madness that there are multiple stats laid down that suggest the ZvP imba and none of the Zerg supporters here can explain, yet the one who laid them down is accused of ignoring the stats. You lot are full of shit and are just talking like trolls. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 15 2025 07:52 Ze'ev wrote: still no analysis eh? Just admit you can't give analysis and your claim is therefore baseless. If you knew what you were talking about you would just explain: instead I get childish rage and shallow commentary but never any analysis. TMNT battle report ? With his own analitical mind put into it and detailing build orders and counters. No gonna lie that would hit hard. That will prove one thing for sure. Is him the coach that never played the game but he understand it perfectly and can helps others to improve and progress and offer and clear vision of what is happening ? Or is him the guy that pick data from everywhere ( Cuz is not even his data ) and just share it with others but has no idea what it means or cant understand really what to do with it apart from sharing it with someone that actually understand it. Is funny how zerg vs terran WR is so low at 44% yet i never seen this guy saying that zerg need better zerg vs terran maps. Yet Protoss is doing way better but protoss need all the help you can give to them lol. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 07:52 Ze'ev wrote: still no analysis eh? Just admit you can't give analysis and your claim is therefore baseless. If you knew what you were talking about you would just explain: instead I get childish rage and shallow commentary but never any analysis. Analysis of what in the first place lol? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 08:12 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Is funny how zerg vs terran WR is so low at 44% yet i never seen this guy saying that zerg need better zerg vs terran maps. Yet Protoss is doing way better but protoss need all the help you can give to them lol. I distinctively remember you yourself were crying about TvZ maps a while ago along with... guess whom? Me. Can't remember which topic and how to find it back though. But this is what I can find two years ago: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2023 03:34 TMNT wrote: Maybe I should start a new thread on this as well, because I normally was more concerned about P win rate being sub 50% in all matchups. But the last two seasons have me realized that TvZ is also a big problem: http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=map_stac Polypoid: 56.3% Vermeer: 57% Eclipse: 52.6% Sylphid: 59.6% (who let this happen?) Fighting Spirit: 51.9% (and I thought it was the worst map ever) Allegro: 51.4% Ascension: 58.5% Revolver: 54.3% Butter: 53% Largo: 55.1% (that's why you were replaced by Allegro) Nemesis: 56.1% Odyssey: 56.9% Metaverse: 59.7% (sigh) Monopoly: 51.9% 76: 52.3% Neo Arkanoid: 51.6% Retro: 50.4% (there's hope) Goodnight: 47% (finally, but ZvP is broken here) Dark Orgin: 46.5% Heartbreak Ridge: 46.1% (turns out maps need to have a backdoor for Z to beat T) With this stats I'm surprised Zerg players haven't moaned more during the years. Maybe because they still get to beat Protoss? Also hilarious that FS and Eclipse are the two maps Arty hate the most while Vermeer was well made according to him > Once again, when it comes to fact. Get it right first. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 08:53 TMNT wrote: your talking about facts whenI distinctively remember you yourself were crying about TvZ maps a while ago along with... guess whom? Me. Can't remember which topic and how to find it back though. But this is what I can find two years ago: + Show Spoiler + On April 22 2023 03:34 TMNT wrote: Maybe I should start a new thread on this as well, because I normally was more concerned about P win rate being sub 50% in all matchups. But the last two seasons have me realized that TvZ is also a big problem: http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=map_stac Polypoid: 56.3% Vermeer: 57% Eclipse: 52.6% Sylphid: 59.6% (who let this happen?) Fighting Spirit: 51.9% (and I thought it was the worst map ever) Allegro: 51.4% Ascension: 58.5% Revolver: 54.3% Butter: 53% Largo: 55.1% (that's why you were replaced by Allegro) Nemesis: 56.1% Odyssey: 56.9% Metaverse: 59.7% (sigh) Monopoly: 51.9% 76: 52.3% Neo Arkanoid: 51.6% Retro: 50.4% (there's hope) Goodnight: 47% (finally, but ZvP is broken here) Dark Orgin: 46.5% Heartbreak Ridge: 46.1% (turns out maps need to have a backdoor for Z to beat T) With this stats I'm surprised Zerg players haven't moaned more during the years. Maybe because they still get to beat Protoss? Also hilarious that FS and Eclipse are the two maps Arty hate the most while Vermeer was well made according to him > Once again, when it comes to fact. Get it right first. 1) you cant actually show Eon complaining about imbalance by your own admission 2) you cant give any analysis whatsoever on the imbalance 3) the thread you linked barely has any balance complaints at all and certainly nothing of this magnitude in length, or the amount of notable zerg players. wheres that analysis btw? On November 15 2025 08:12 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: TMNT battle report ? With his own analitical mind put into it and detailing build orders and counters. No gonna lie that would hit hard. That will prove one thing for sure. Is him the coach that never played the game but he understand it perfectly and can helps others to improve and progress and offer and clear vision of what is happening ? Or is him the guy that pick data from everywhere ( Cuz is not even his data ) and just share it with others but has no idea what it means or cant understand really what to do with it apart from sharing it with someone that actually understand it. Is funny how zerg vs terran WR is so low at 44% yet i never seen this guy saying that zerg need better zerg vs terran maps. Yet Protoss is doing way better but protoss need all the help you can give to them lol. | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/nqHDZMTD/h.png) | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 09:49 Ze'ev wrote: Do you know where you are? Do you understand the topic, what were discussing? The games, the matchup? Do you need some help? How could you possibly be confused about context? your talking about facts when 1) you cant actually show Eon complaining about imbalance by your own admission 2) you cant give any analysis whatsoever on the imbalance 3) the thread you linked barely has any balance complaints at all and certainly nothing of this magnitude in length, or the amount of notable zerg players. wheres that analysis btw? The link is to a post where I highlighted the imba of TvZ maps - which Eon claimed that he's never seen me saying anything about. Have some reading comprehension. I literally said right there I remember him crying about TvZ maps but can't remember where or how to find the posts. Also quite recently he was crying about PvZ maps being too good for P (more spots to hide zealots). I don't understand what analysis you are demanding. But first of all, why do I have to supply your demand when you yourself have provided fuck all arguments about anything related to BW in this thread since joining this conversation? All you have done up to this point is making personal insults towards me. Where's your response to post #120 when I took the time to point out one by one that all you said was wrong? A meme? More questions? Now, the following post is not directed towards you specifically, as I can't spend all time for people like you. So please fuck off. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
1/ the global ZvP win rate during Kespa is 54.7% (~10k games) 2/ the global ZvP win rate since eloboard was created is 52.4% (~ 26k games) 3/ the ZvP score in SL finals is 11-2 4/ the ZvP score in KCM finals (team game btw) is 10-1 5/ every Zerg players has significantly better win rate in ZvP than ZvT 6/ the gameplay shows a clear disadvantage for Protoss with regards to information in the early game, which leads to the Hydra bust problem - a move that can kill Protoss outright which has repeatedly occurred for years and never been resolved. Any person with more than average IQ and sufficient education would understand that if a mirror matchup is balanced then a non-mirror matchup has to be imba, and if the above 6 points are not enough evidences for you to deduce that the advantage leans towards Z, I don't know what to say. But feel free to provide counterpoints and counter-evidences. Just remember that if our Zerg supporters here want to disprove the ZvP imba, they have to explain why the above 6 points aren't valid. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 11:27 TMNT wrote: Do you even know what burden of proof is? your making a claim; substantiate the claim. zvp is imbalanced and this series proves it: either analyze something in this series or analyze any number of recent games to demonstrate your high level of understanding of zvp and how it is fundamentally imbalanced. Your pretending not to know what im talking about because we both know your a scrub who cant give fuck all in terms of analysis; you cant meet the burden of your claim. The link is to a post where I highlighted the imba of TvZ maps - which Eon claimed that he's never seen me saying anything about. Have some reading comprehension. I literally said right there I remember him crying about TvZ maps but can't remember where or how to find the posts. Also quite recently he was crying about PvZ maps being too good for P (more spots to hide zealots). I don't understand what analysis you are demanding. But first of all, why do I have to supply your demand when you yourself have provided fuck all arguments about anything related to BW in this thread since joining this conversation? All you have done up to this point is making personal insults towards me. Where's your response to post #120 when I took the time to point out one by one that all you said was wrong? A meme? More questions? Now, the following post is not directed towards you specifically, as I can't spend all time for people like you. So please fuck off. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 11:37 TMNT wrote: This isnt analysis its low level data mining and surface level commentary. your clearly a D level scrub loooolNow, the main topic of current conversation is: "Is ZvP imba?" My opinion is yes. And such opinion is supported by the following evidences: 1/ the global ZvP win rate during Kespa is 54.7% (~10k games) 2/ the global ZvP win rate since eloboard was created is 52.4% (~ 26k games) 3/ the ZvP score in SL finals is 11-2 4/ the ZvP score in KCM finals (team game btw) is 10-1 5/ every Zerg players has significantly better win rate in ZvP than ZvT 6/ the gameplay shows a clear disadvantage for Protoss with regards to information in the early game, which leads to the Hydra bust problem - a move that can kill Protoss outright which has repeatedly occurred for years and never been resolved. Any person with more than average IQ and sufficient education would understand that if a mirror matchup is balanced then a non-mirror matchup has to be imba, and if the above 6 points are not enough evidences for you to deduce that the advantage leans towards Z, I don't know what to say. But feel free to provide counterpoints and counter-evidences. Just remember that if our Zerg supporters here want to disprove the ZvP imba, they have to explain why the above 6 points aren't valid. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
Turns out it's actually your responsibility to provide high level data analysis and in depth commentary to prove that the matchup is balanced, starting with disproving the 6 observations above lol. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 13:25 TMNT wrote: lol wtf. You’re making a positive claim about balance — and making a positive claim means you have the burden of proof. Everyone else finds you ridiculous and is expressing skepticism, and you’re refusing to actually substantiate your claim beyond shallow reasoning, data-mining, or insulting people because you can’t back it up and you’re too insecure to back down.The burden of proof actually lies with the side who claims ZvP is balanced, for reason I already stated: if PvP is balanced then PvZ can't be balanced because P and Z are different. Tell me why the default assumption is "balanced"? Turns out it's actually your responsibility to provide high level data analysis and in depth commentary to prove that the matchup is balanced, starting with disproving the 6 observations above lol. | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
see you guys in next ASL | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
Protoss vs Zerg has a 48.7% WR while Zerg vs Terran has a 44% WR so we need to nerf Hydras. And since we are also nerf Mutalisk. The last 3 ASLS semifinals there has been 2 protoss 1 terran 1 zerg. Is clear protoss is not doing well cuz it has to be 4 protoss to guarantee a Protoss winner. TMNT | ||
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Bonyth
Poland595 Posts
While you are at it, do the same for RO8, RO16, RO24. As for the balance whine, I believe if there is about 40% protoss players on the world, then we should have 40% of them being champions, RO4, RO8 and so on (given sample size is big enough). Unfortunately, 40% of them only exist at the bottom of ladder, even on S rank there is already only 30% of them, and then there are top tournaments. There were tables for this, but I'm definitely too lazy to search for them. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
Is also interesting that the WR of protoss has improved a ton since the Kespa era. That means the maps indeed got better after. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 13:39 Ze'ev wrote: lol wtf. You’re making a positive claim about balance — and making a positive claim means you have the burden of proof. Everyone else finds you ridiculous and is expressing skepticism, and you’re refusing to actually substantiate your claim beyond shallow reasoning, data-mining, or insulting people because you can’t back it up and you’re too insecure to back down. You sound like some kid who just takes his first science class and is so eager to apply some terms he's just learned to everything. Matchup balance can only be in either of the two states: balanced or imbalanced. It's not like I'm claiming a new build. It's like when a child is born it can only be a male or a female biologically (excluding the rare genetical cases). The doctor doesn't need to do a genetic test to claim it is a boy or girl, just physical featues are enough. In BW balance there is always a default assumption and it has to be "all non mirror matchups are imbalanced" however small the margin is. It's no bigger of a claim than saying me and you are different people. The 6 points I raised above just further solidify that assumption while also give us a hint of how big the margin is. So the burden of proof, if you want to declare the opposite case, lies on you. Btw why are you acting like I'm the first person in 25 years who make a statement about ZvP imbalance lol? And if you are so obssessed with high level "analysis", then what the fuck did you do here: + Show Spoiler [low level data mining] + On October 30 2025 06:49 Ze'ev wrote: its extremely interesting that: 1) protoss lose on almost every map in every matchup 2) terran win on almost every map in every matchup. it kind of reflects the larger patterns of: zerg has a weak matchup, terran does not. Protoss has a weak matchup and a slightly less weak matchup. When people complain about z>p its not that they're wrong -- rather, its the wrong target. The pvz balance is totally acceptable as long as the pvt balance more closely resembled the strong-weak matchup dichotomy that terran and zerg have. Or rather the myth of; terran has no weak match up and protoss has no strong match up. Itz not zvp thats the problem, its tesagi. edit: sorry that i fucked up the pattern. im always that guy lol. or here: + Show Spoiler [surface commentary on map balance, whe…] + On October 04 2025 22:59 Ze'ev wrote: I actually think roaring currents is zerg favoured tbh. on the continental side of the map: protoss cant really attack into zerg because its across a bridge, up a ramp, or into a choke. Those bases mine out quickly as well which favours zerg. It gives zerg a stable enough of an economy to contest for the islands. The thing about island/air play in broodwar is: zerg is weak because of oppurtunity cost, but actually has the strongest potential. Queens for parasite/ensnare, muta, devourer, scourge, plague, dark swarm, nydus canal, cracklings, lurkers and hydras...this is an amazingly powerful force. Obviously protoss has its own late game technical army (dweb/arbiter/carrier) to contest with buuuut: because the continental bases dry up relatively fast I'm not sure protoss can safely tech transition without giving the zerg initiative. Its basically: you cant punish the zerg on land, which gives them a lot of attacking potential either on your land bases or your islands and you cant be quite sure which way there going to go. If you over-invest in one aspect of defence, you get rolled elsewhere. Your initial air advantage is powerful but will dissipate once zerg is stabilized on four gas, and transitions to higher tech both take a while and expose you in the meantime. I think Bisu's solution was to lean on larva with harass and then hit a timing in order to forestall the zerg economic explosion which he couldn't handle in the late game. Larva showed pretty well why that gameplan isnt something you can really rely on. But what was the alternative? If he hadn't tried for a hanbang and started to transition sooner to late game air, Larva could have contested air that much faster and or started hitting his land bases. After Bisu's timing failed to keep Larva suppressed I feel like he was in a bit of a desperation situation and thats why he kept going for these attacks. He knew how hard a transition would be and gambled his best option was to avoid it. I honestly can understand the decision, giving zerg breathing room on an air map would be fucking terrifying. Ffs turns out you even implied that ZvP imba is true while having an issue with TvZ too lol. So you are just a small time shit stirrer whose sole purpose is personal attack. Once again, fuck off. | ||
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iopq
United States1058 Posts
That's all in the context of what maps we are playing. If the map designers made a lot more Butters and Citadels and Polypoids, we'd be talking about how PvZ is too strong for Protoss It's literally just luck that more maps are Zerg favored. There are randomly maps that are very close to 50% like Neo Sylphid and Pole Star and Apocalypse. I mean, you could choose the ASL map pool out of relatively balanced maps and add a 3 player map with high ground naturals or the 973 blocker ditch in front of it (Tempest 3 player remake or Kick Back 3 player remake). Then add a crazy map and call it a day. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 15 2025 22:58 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Important to mention Sylphid was ravaged with later iterations. I think sylphid 1.0 was the best version of it and one of the most fun maps to play to this date. But it was destroyed later on. nahhh, there was one single version with a bunch of neutral buildings. this was when the neutral-buildings-mafia was still much more powerful than today. they still have some influence over map making, just not as much as back then all other changes, from 1.0 to neo sylphid, were rather small and focused on fixing bugs below are all versions that we had, in random order. try to find your favourite one + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/gkB0mFV/5073.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/d/dc/Sylphide.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/6/6c/Neo_Sylphid.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/DH5hwBfq/5056.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/bgSvDC9D/5093.jpg) | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
With this in mind, Apocalypse was created to be kind of a remake of Sylphid, but the center layout was specifically designed to nerf this play style. At least that's what I read once in an interview by Latias, the maker of Apocalypse. | ||
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Comedy
469 Posts
Protoss is relatively 'easy to play', but it's harder to perform with at the very top level. That's why guys like bonyth and dewalt dominate the foreign scene with protoss even though with zerg/terran they wouldn't be nearly as succesful. But when it comes to the top korean level, Protoss, despite being easy to play, has to face a lot of bs builds and timings that top players can abuse to make it harder to win tournaments. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 15 2025 23:43 Kraekkling wrote: nahhh, there was one single version with a bunch of neutral buildings. this was when the neutral-buildings-mafia was still much more powerful than today. they still have some influence over map making, just not as much as back then all other changes, from 1.0 to neo sylphid, were rather small and focused on fixing bugs below are all versions that we had, in random order. try to find your favourite one + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + You are forgetting mineral balanced was changed and made it extremely hard vs terran. Before those changes zerg could play with close expos vs terran. And they introduced countless spots for zealots to get 1 gap traded at basically every natural. Basically every zerg pro complained about sylphid changes and did ask to revert back but changes werent made. I remember pros also wanted that the expanions at the top bottom and mid right were changed so siege tank couldnt kill extractor. | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 16 2025 00:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: You are forgetting mineral balanced was changed and made it extremely hard vs terran. Before those changes zerg could play with close expos vs terran. And they introduced countless spots for zealots to get 1 gap traded at basically every natural. Basically every zerg pro complained about sylphid changes and did ask to revert back but changes werent made. I remember pros also wanted that the expanions at the top bottom and mid right were changed so siege tank couldnt kill extractor. Yea that makes sense. Its usually hard to say whether something really needs fixed, because people will always complain if you take away something they had before, or give their opponents something new. I think in the past we were way worse at tracking stats... really makes you wonder when and how maps were updated. What's interesting (and good) though is, if the changes you mention were able to make or break the balance on the map, this would mean that we have some really good tools to tilt the balance to either side. Because stuff like that can be applied to almost any map. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
And listen i think an important Rule for maps is. Dont break mechanics and dont make it hard to play. Dont make maps that the players is fighting the map instead of his opponent. And then go from there. Thats why i think Roaring Currents has been very balanced and progamers never quit playing it even after ASL is done like it happened with weird maps before that the quit using it right after ASL. The basics of Roaring Currents allow players to play it like a normal map at first then as they game progress and players are forced to fight for island you get different challenges. I think 76 made a huge mistake using that tiny ramp. I think the map had potential already having normal ramps. But we will never know. | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
Dont break mechanics and dont make it hard to play. Dont make maps that the players is fighting the map instead of his opponent. And then go from there. this 10000% the main problem with experimental quirky crazy maps is that they're just shitty to play on. I think this is something a lot of people do not understand who keep asking this type of maps. Its also usually those people who don't even play the game that much... And another reason why we used to have so many experimental quirky crazy maps, was that map makers were afraid of being cliché. Its almost similar to some modern architecture, or parts of modern art, when artists start making shit for the sake of being different and noone has done this before. So we had the equivalents of banana-taped-to-a-wall of broodwar maps again and again | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 15 2025 23:56 Kraekkling wrote: Sylphid was a very pretty and cool map, although it was thought of as a T>Z map by koreans. One of the reasons being that in late TvZ, Terran was able to camp the center of the map with lots of Tanks and inhibit Zerg movement too much. With this in mind, Apocalypse was created to be kind of a remake of Sylphid, but the center layout was specifically designed to nerf this play style. At least that's what I read once in an interview by Latias, the maker of Apocalypse. Apocalypse ended up being one of the best maps ever made. Radeon and Apocalypse are goated. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 22:25 TMNT wrote: The default position in any claim is neutral uncertainty; you want to make a claim about balance but you dont back it up because your bad at starcraft and couldnt give any analysis that wouldnt be laughed at. We are laughing at you anyway. You can stamp your feet like a child and tell me to fuck off all you want; all you are highlighting is that you are an immature, angry, bitter, insecure little man who cant defend the claims he makes. Shifting burden of proof because your a dumbass is the oldest trick on the book on the internet: you made a claim about balance, substantiate it with analysis of decision trees, timings, scout patterns, show how in any given game the balance is skewed by examining it at a high level. You cant because you arent high level. Simple as that. Your pathetic insecurity and rage is the only thing actually happening in this thread. You confuse cherry picking data and surface level commentary for actual analysis; likely because you are stupid, certainly because your incompetent at the game and lack the actual concepts to understand it. You sound like some kid who just takes his first science class and is so eager to apply some terms he's just learned to everything. Matchup balance can only be in either of the two states: balanced or imbalanced. It's not like I'm claiming a new build. It's like when a child is born it can only be a male or a female biologically (excluding the rare genetical cases). The doctor doesn't need to do a genetic test to claim it is a boy or girl, just physical featues are enough. In BW balance there is always a default assumption and it has to be "all non mirror matchups are imbalanced" however small the margin is. It's no bigger of a claim than saying me and you are different people. The 6 points I raised above just further solidify that assumption while also give us a hint of how big the margin is. So the burden of proof, if you want to declare the opposite case, lies on you. Btw why are you acting like I'm the first person in 25 years who make a statement about ZvP imbalance lol? And if you are so obssessed with high level "analysis", then what the fuck did you do here: + Show Spoiler [low level data mining] + On October 30 2025 06:49 Ze'ev wrote: its extremely interesting that: 1) protoss lose on almost every map in every matchup 2) terran win on almost every map in every matchup. it kind of reflects the larger patterns of: zerg has a weak matchup, terran does not. Protoss has a weak matchup and a slightly less weak matchup. When people complain about z>p its not that they're wrong -- rather, its the wrong target. The pvz balance is totally acceptable as long as the pvt balance more closely resembled the strong-weak matchup dichotomy that terran and zerg have. Or rather the myth of; terran has no weak match up and protoss has no strong match up. Itz not zvp thats the problem, its tesagi. edit: sorry that i fucked up the pattern. im always that guy lol. or here: + Show Spoiler [surface commentary on map balance, whe…] + On October 04 2025 22:59 Ze'ev wrote: I actually think roaring currents is zerg favoured tbh. on the continental side of the map: protoss cant really attack into zerg because its across a bridge, up a ramp, or into a choke. Those bases mine out quickly as well which favours zerg. It gives zerg a stable enough of an economy to contest for the islands. The thing about island/air play in broodwar is: zerg is weak because of oppurtunity cost, but actually has the strongest potential. Queens for parasite/ensnare, muta, devourer, scourge, plague, dark swarm, nydus canal, cracklings, lurkers and hydras...this is an amazingly powerful force. Obviously protoss has its own late game technical army (dweb/arbiter/carrier) to contest with buuuut: because the continental bases dry up relatively fast I'm not sure protoss can safely tech transition without giving the zerg initiative. Its basically: you cant punish the zerg on land, which gives them a lot of attacking potential either on your land bases or your islands and you cant be quite sure which way there going to go. If you over-invest in one aspect of defence, you get rolled elsewhere. Your initial air advantage is powerful but will dissipate once zerg is stabilized on four gas, and transitions to higher tech both take a while and expose you in the meantime. I think Bisu's solution was to lean on larva with harass and then hit a timing in order to forestall the zerg economic explosion which he couldn't handle in the late game. Larva showed pretty well why that gameplan isnt something you can really rely on. But what was the alternative? If he hadn't tried for a hanbang and started to transition sooner to late game air, Larva could have contested air that much faster and or started hitting his land bases. After Bisu's timing failed to keep Larva suppressed I feel like he was in a bit of a desperation situation and thats why he kept going for these attacks. He knew how hard a transition would be and gambled his best option was to avoid it. I honestly can understand the decision, giving zerg breathing room on an air map would be fucking terrifying. Ffs turns out you even implied that ZvP imba is true while having an issue with TvZ too lol. So you are just a small time shit stirrer whose sole purpose is personal attack. Once again, fuck off. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
I dont like talking negative on people is not my nature. So i also appreciate how TMNT keeps the daily proleagues thread update. For someone that cant watch every proleague is cool to go there and see if there is something worth checking. But yeah you are dogshit at SC mate. Nothing wrong with that. But i truly wish u played the game so you dont speak all this BS for no reason. | ||
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shakigami
220 Posts
On November 10 2025 07:48 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I cant believe this Terran prick dare to assume how protoss should play. If anything he has won every championship by playing the most stronger faction in Starcraft. On top of that he is way older than Snow so he should set as example and no blaming optimizations from The most strongest protoss this Earth has seen in 20 years. The PvT God. The protoss Bonjwa that never won A ship Cuz zerg and Terran is so imbalanced that is literally impossible for him to win one. On top of that FlaSh had to pick Random and beat him Protoss vs Protoss cuz he knew that playing like a real warrior Protoss vs Protoss he had 0 chance. Hey FlaSH you better go back and make some coins ahh ?? And yeah Him losing vs Rain in ASL Is totally unfair and the final should be replayed now to see who is the real Champion. Snow actually forgot his chocolate bar that day so yeah.. PD: him losing on Blitz Y vs Soulkey a map with 33% win rate for zerg doesnt prove nothing. Snow played fair and square and decided to no use his third gaz the whole game to make a fair game vs Soulkey. Protoss are just like that. Pure souls. Signed: TMNT "Lol, who exactly do you think you are to talk about Flash like that? Eon, you better go archiving something first before demanding the GOAT to do nonsense shit. Everyone gets to choose their race, and once you do, you stick with it and prove yourself. Even Snow admitted it himself, he never blamed imbalance. Funny how you’re the only one doing that. | ||
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Just_a_Moth
Canada1964 Posts
On November 16 2025 02:26 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I dont like talking negative on people is not my nature. On November 16 2025 02:26 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: you are dogshit at SC mate. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
Like when I told how you lot can't read or constantly get facts wrong, I showed proofs and pointed out where you were wrong. Not once have you proved me wrong at anything. I asked questions, you didn't answer. You accused me of something, I replied point by point, you ignored. Then you kept throwing insults. Ze'ev literally hasn't said a word about BW since joining this conversation. The entire content of his posts is bigotry. I quoted his posts showing him doing the exact same thing he's accusing me of. What's his response? Of course he ignored it. This is how an argument between civilized people goes: A: presents point A, backs it up with evidences B: disagrees with point A, explains why point A is invalid, presents counterpoints A: responds to the counterpoints This is how an argument goes for these illiterates: Me: present point A Them: that's wrong, you're dogshit at this Me: where are your arguments? how do you prove A is wrong? and can you explain this? Them: you're dogshit at this Me: literally show quotes that prove them wrong Them: act like they dont' see it What a fucking waste of time trying to be reasonable to this lot. | ||
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Puosu
7003 Posts
On November 16 2025 04:42 TMNT wrote: waste of time just stop posting | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
instead he spends his time here | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
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SCRVN
135 Posts
PvZ is unbalanced at every thing. Gameplay: It doesn't matter win or lose, Z always active and easier to play than P. Units: Z is flexible, mobile than P. Hydras can be useful in all situation and all stage game. Duration: At early, Z is the king of StarCraft land. At mid, Z will use Hydras + O last forever if Z wants. At late, Z has some units that can burn so much resource if necessary. Strategy: "all in" whenever or switch to macro game without high risk. When Protoss chooses a build order they can't switch to another one. And there are always some points of weakness for Z abuses. We can watch some P win games randomly or even all of P's winning games. We will see that winnable of P is almost impossible for P to win. Example: some nice stormru, sneaky DT then kill 50 Drones, micro at Bisu's level, timing push. Whatelse? Are they easy to do? | ||
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iopq
United States1058 Posts
On November 16 2025 12:34 SCRVN wrote: ^ why does only Protoss make mistake in 25 years but not Terran or Zerg? Bisu exploited the common Zerg builds to win a star league much less than 25 years ago. Going hatch first every game is most definitely a mistake (ez 13 nex every game) and ZvP didn't get a change since 1.16.1 so it's basically same patch and shitty maps for Protoss (Kick back and such are better for Protoss these days) Also, sample size. We have 3 ASLs a year, and people whine about 6 or 7 games in a final match. Guess what, 100 games would be a SHITTY sample size for a matchup that's like ~53% overall recently. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
if you advocate/claim zvp imbalance, can you maybe publish and comment video/replays of you losing to zerg because of you think it was an imbalance? surely you have lot of plain hydra bust loses replays of yours i am happy to pay/make some donation to you stream for such a content spice up your life! | ||
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Bonyth
Poland595 Posts
True imba exists only at the highest level, where the gains from spending more time to get better at this game become smaller and smaller. In foreign scene (or below pro level), the imbalance exists only in the time u need to spend to get better. For example, for protoss player it would take the least time to start adventure with the game and get to B rank. Of course, mastering the game is not just about the time but also other factors, like intelligence (how fast u can learn the game / progress at it compared to other players). Either way, it's near impossible to say if player A won vs player B because of imba, or because he mastered the game better. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
Quality of Quantity of time spent + talent = quantity and quality of improvement. | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada125 Posts
I'd take Best, Bisu, Rain, and Mini all over him against a Z | ||
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TornadoSteve
1109 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1867 Posts
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Ikirouta
Finland739 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 17 2025 10:40 ruhtraeel wrote: I said it a bunch but I'll say it again, Snow is amazing in PvP and PvT but he's probably the weakest P out of the top 5 against Z, which will always hold him back in becoming a champion I'd take Best, Bisu, Rain, and Mini all over him against a Z the stats online imply otherwise. SnOw fumbled against SoMa in the finals. Online SnOw is 2nd only to Bisu in PvZ. his PvZ being weak is not reflected in the data. SnOw has 53%-56%+ winrate vs all zergs except Soulkey (45%) and SoMa (39%). SoMa and Soulkey respectively are UP on all protoss. Soma 1,134 wins, 721 losses 61%. Soulkey 874 wins, 549 losses 61%. SnOw has 1,582 wins, 1,240 losses vs Zerg. that is 56%. This is second only to Bisu's 996 wins, 746 losses, which is 57%. Rain is the 3rd best with 330-302. Best with 1,102 wins, 1,101 losses Mini with 1,416 wins, 1,420 losses The stats imply SnOw is really good at PvZ, second only to Bisu. Snow is so unreasonably good at Pvt and Pvp that his statistically good Pvz looks weak. But it isnt. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 17 2025 19:21 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: The stats imply SnOw is really good at PvZ, second only to Bisu. Online, yes. He was unbeatable online about 2 years ago, i remember him having like like 30 consecutive wins in eloboard. Now he is bit worse online and better in offline/asl for some reason. But in ASL i prefer Bisu and Mini PvZ. Current ASL results are about right IMO ( Bisu equal or better to top zergs, Snow is not). | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 17 2025 19:43 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Online, yes. He was unbeatable online about 2 years ago, i remember him having like like 30 consecutive wins in eloboard. Now he is bit worse online and better in offline/asl for some reason. But in ASL i prefer Bisu and Mini PvZ. Current ASL results are about right IMO ( Bisu equal or better to top zergs, Snow is not). SnOw went like 75-8 at one point which got him to the highest ELO rating in online BW history.(since 2016) | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
Mini's consecutive 4-1 wins over Queen many seasons ago skew people's perception of his PvZ so much. His overall PvZ record is in fact just barely better than Best and far behind Snow and Bisu. Bisu also hasn't done well against top Zergs in recent seasons in ASL, having lost all his Bo3, 5, 7 against Hero, Soulkey, Soma. Last season he even got KO'd 0-2 by Action. In fact his win over Larva this season was the first time he won a Bo series against a 'top' Zerg since ASL13 so not sure where the 'equal or better to top Zergs' shout comes from. (Larva, Action and Effort are not top tier Zerg mind) | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 17 2025 16:22 Ikirouta wrote: Im sipping a cup of coffee and reading through this on a monday morning, humanity is very cool! man I love posting on our stupid lil' forum about our stupid lil' game | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
Bisu: 6-8 (Soma), 1-4 (Hero), 2-6 (Soulkey) Snow: 3-4 (Soma), 1-6 (Hero), 5-14 (Soulkey) Mini: 0-2 (Soma), 2-3 (Hero), 3-7 (Soulkey) "equal or better" though. Ironically, Best, who is considered the worst PvZer among them, is 4-5 (Soma), 0-0 (Hero), 4-4 (Soulkey). But I guess it's just a matter of not meeting them at the right (wrong) time. Likewise Snow looks worst here but mainly because of playing them the most. Somebody was saying something about counting only finals but not Ro4, 8, 16...? | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 17 2025 22:22 TMNT wrote: Head to head records in the last 10 ASL seasons between top 3 PvZers and top 3 ZvPers: Bisu: 6-8 (Soma), 1-4 (Hero), 2-6 (Soulkey) Snow: 3-4 (Soma), 1-6 (Hero), 5-14 (Soulkey) Mini: 0-2 (Soma), 2-3 (Hero), 3-7 (Soulkey) "equal or better" though. Ironically, Best, who is considered the worst PvZer among them, is 4-5 (Soma), 0-0 (Hero), 4-4 (Soulkey). But I guess it's just a matter of not meeting them at the right (wrong) time. Likewise Snow looks worst here but mainly because of playing them the most. Somebody was saying something about counting only finals but not Ro4, 8, 16...? Can you name of above, the serie, or the game where you think that protoss loss due ZvP imbalance? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
TMNT no one was asking for the BS you posted. Please put actual results of zvp series starting from Round of 8 and show why protoss can beat them except the Final. You are boring with the same rethoric and stats manipulation homie. And funny enough Soma and SNow were 3-3 before the final ? Damn TMNT. So we can absolute guess that every Soma series he won is cuz zerg is imbalanced and Snow only win fair and square. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
Snow and Soma map score is 3-4 in the last 10 seasons. They only played 1 game before the last final, when Snow won. Then you add the 2-4 and get 3-4. Do you think Snow and Soma have played 7 series in ASL. And Snow and Soulkey have played 19? Where's your brain? I mean it's really not that hard to fact check yourself, if you don't remember. You never do so, yet you jump to your conclusion with incredible arrogance and aggression, and by doing so just exposes your stupidity. More on other points later. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 18 2025 01:19 TMNT wrote: Your stupidity is beyond comprehension eon. Snow and Soma map score is 3-4 in the last 10 seasons. They only played 1 game before the last final, when Snow won. Then you add the 2-4 and get 3-4. Do you think Snow and Soma have played 7 series in ASL. And Snow and Soulkey have played 19? Where's your brain? I mean it's really not that hard to fact check yourself, if you don't remember. You never do so, yet you jump to your conclusion with incredible arrogance and aggression, and by doing so just exposes your stupidity. More on other points later. I gave you too much credit in my Mind cuz there is no way we arguing that Protoss cant beat zerg in series but you came with the great idea of putting single maps. I thought the SK vs SNow number was odd but still could be from groups stages who knows. So i guess the debate of Protoss beating zerg in a series is not important anymore right TMNT ZHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA | ||
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Darkwhite
Norway352 Posts
On November 18 2025 00:50 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Can you name of above, the serie, or the game where you think that protoss loss due ZvP imbalance? Try doing this for chess. Can you point to a game where black lost "beacuse of imbalance"? If not, does this mean that chess is "balanced" for black? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 15 2025 18:35 Bonyth wrote: I believe if there is about 40% protoss players on the world, then we should have 40% of them being champions well that sounds pretty woke to me. There could be some underlying variable which makes someone more likely to pick Protoss, which at the same time makes them less likely to become champions? There's somewhat of a sentiment amongst the community that Protoss players are kinda retarded. We don't say that about Terran or Zerg players. Picking Protoss does not make you retarded, but, on average, Protoss players could be more retarded, so they don't become champions as often as we'd naively expect. Then we also have Stereotype threat. All these discussions that we have about Protoss being weaker makes Protoss players believe it themselves, which results in them performing worse. This is a well documented and accepted finding. So in fact, all the people arguing against ZvP imba are helping Protoss players to perform better in the future. or...+ Show Spoiler + it's the maps | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 01:54 Kraekkling wrote: well that sounds pretty woke to me. There could be some underlying variable which makes someone more likely to pick Protoss, which at the same time makes them less likely to become champions? There's somewhat of a sentiment amongst the community that Protoss players are kinda retarded. We don't say that about Terran or Zerg players. Picking Protoss does not make you retarded, but, on average, Protoss players could be more retarded, so they don't become champions as often as we'd naively expect. Then we also have Stereotype threat. All these discussions that we have about Protoss being weaker makes Protoss players believe it themselves, which results in them performing worse. This is a well documented and accepted finding. So in fact, all the people arguing against ZvP imba are helping Protoss players to perform better in the future. or...+ Show Spoiler + it's the maps I hope this is satirical, otherwise you'd have to provide analyses to prove it, as you have the burden of proof or something like that, I don't know.... And to expand on the second point, I believe when players whose original race is Terran or Zerg switch to Protoss, they become retarded too. So it's pretty much something to do with the race itself rather than the players. I dont have the necessary analysis to back it up tho. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 18 2025 01:36 Darkwhite wrote: Try doing this for chess. Can you point to a game where black lost "beacuse of imbalance"? If not, does this mean that chess is "balanced" for black? In chess if black mirrors the white, it will lose in 4 moves, technically black did nothing wrong just did exactly as good as white. Imbalance Not sure it applies to protoss lol | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 01:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I gave you too much credit in my Mind cuz there is no way we arguing that Protoss cant beat zerg in series but you came with the great idea of putting single maps. I thought the SK vs SNow number was odd but still could be from groups stages who knows. So i guess the debate of Protoss beating zerg in a series is not important anymore right TMNT ZHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Honestly your behavior is fucking disgusting as a grown man. Your shamelessnes knows no bound. Everytime I point out that you're factually wrong about something, instead of admitting the mistake, you just gloss over, ignore it, pretend like it never happens. Never a single "my bad I got it wrong". Just keep doubling down or diverting into something else. Like the last time you accused me of claiming Snow was the best Protoss ever, while in fact I said he has the best peak in PvT. Then you followed up by acting like they are the same concept lmao. So much for "high skill". So because you thought it was series scores that you wrote the whole part about group stage, Ro16 and MSL? Makes yourself look like a mug now. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 01:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Let me explain to you what TMNT did there. Cuz we already know how his tricks works cuz is been a while. Do you see how he purposefully included round of 16 in the mix ? WHen no one is asking for group stage ? Round of 16 should be relevant to a Tournament like MSL (But they also changed the format few times so it has to be for only the seasons they used such format.Or Gomtv STarleague) But since our friend TMNT is cherrypicking like Usual. What he did is picking the best players of Now. ANd counted every round since group stage LMAO. ANd totally ignored that SNow has been godlike past 2 years. Maybe 3. He totally ignored Rain peak and deleted his pvz results. TMNT no one was asking for the BS you posted. Please put actual results of zvp series starting from Round of 8 and show why protoss can beat them except the Final. You are boring with the same rethoric and stats manipulation homie. And funny enough Soma and SNow were 3-3 before the final ? Damn TMNT. So we can absolute guess that every Soma series he won is cuz zerg is imbalanced and Snow only win fair and square. Now onto the Starcraft part. What's the issue with including group stage? There're Bo3s in Ro16 of ASL just like MSL. What's the problem? What's the problem with counting map score anyway? Are they not games you can't lose? By the way the overall series score of Bisu Snow Mini vs Soulkey Soma Hero in the last 10 seasons is 1-16 (the one single win by Bisu). Does that look any better compared to map score now for your agenda? Feel free to add Rain's run in ASL13 to the mix and even remove Snow entirely (not that it's the right methodology mind - that's actually manipulating the data to make Protoss look slightly less worse - as if Rain would beat Soulkey in his threepeat lol) and we get to 3-9. And what's wrong with picking those 3 players by the way? Are they not the best of each race in the last 10 seasons? Pick any time frame you want and with the score being 1-16 there's no way you can manipulate it to make Protoss look better lol. Also feel free to propose your data choosing method and explain why it is appropriate. But remember that the reason I made this post is actually a response to Soft_General's post where he said: But in ASL i prefer Bisu and Mini PvZ. Current ASL results are about right IMO ( Bisu equal or better to top zergs, Snow is not). So I just wanted to explore if Bisu is really equal or better to top Zergs in ASL. The result: he's not. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 18 2025 03:06 TMNT wrote: So I just wanted to explore if Bisu is really equal or better to top Zergs in ASL. The result: he's not. In current ASL : Now, current time/mappool/meta/form he is better at PvZ than Snow. Especially offline as it's Snow's weakness. Look at eloboard. Bisu just destroyed Soma 4:1. But who is best PvZ player right now is separate issue than general ZvP imbalance. Alleged. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 03:33 Soft_General_5023 wrote: In current ASL : Now, current time/mappool/meta/form he is better at PvZ than Snow. Especially offline as it's Snow's weakness. Look at eloboard. Bisu just destroyed Soma 4:1. But who is best PvZ player right now is separate issue than general ZvP imbalance. Alleged. But you just said ASL in the first sentence and in the very next sentence referred to an online result. Also you wrote "Bisu equal or better to top zergs, Snow is not", which means you were comparing Bisu vs Zergs. Bisu's records vs 'top' Zergs in recent ASL seasons: - ASL20: 3-4 Soma, 4-1 Larva, 1-0 Queen - ASL19: 0-1 Queen, 0-2 Action - ASL18: 1-2 Hero, 1-0 JD - ASL17: 0-2 Soulkey - ASL16: 0-1 Soulkey - ASL15: 0-2 Hero Only wins are vs tier 2 Zergs (Larva, JD), even one loss vs tier 2 (Action) and tie 1-1 vs tier 1.5 (Queen). That's best PvZ player in ASL for you. Snow's results are not better mind, but he's been mostly playing Soulkey in ASL. I don't deny their online results are much better though. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
IMO Bisu is best PvZ right now. Soma is best ZvP. Soulkey is AWOL. In ASL just last month Bisu lost in last game to unfortunate misclick to ling all in. Snow lost with uninspiring performance. Just few days ago Bisu won easily vs Soma in sponsored BO7. To me at top level right now ZvP is balanced good enough. Whatever the word "balance" means to you. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 18 2025 03:06 TMNT wrote: Now onto the Starcraft part. What's the issue with including group stage? There're Bo3s in Ro16 of ASL just like MSL. What's the problem? What's the problem with counting map score anyway? Are they not games you can't lose? By the way the overall series score of Bisu Snow Mini vs Soulkey Soma Hero in the last 10 seasons is 1-16 (the one single win by Bisu). Does that look any better compared to map score now for your agenda? Feel free to add Rain's run in ASL13 to the mix and even remove Snow entirely (not that it's the right methodology mind - that's actually manipulating the data to make Protoss look slightly less worse - as if Rain would beat Soulkey in his threepeat lol) and we get to 3-9. And what's wrong with picking those 3 players by the way? Are they not the best of each race in the last 10 seasons? Pick any time frame you want and with the score being 1-16 there's no way you can manipulate it to make Protoss look better lol. Also feel free to propose your data choosing method and explain why it is appropriate. But remember that the reason I made this post is actually a response to Soft_General's post where he said: So I just wanted to explore if Bisu is really equal or better to top Zergs in ASL. The result: he's not. Do i really need to explain to you whats means preparing for a group stage and preparing for a bracket with a bo5/bo7 format ? Even if you said yes i will not explain. thats on you. And if you think both are the same then we are cook. That said in a bo7 Mindgames from map to map are way stronger compared to a bo3 and can heavily affect result. Think Rush vs SOulkey with the mass 9pools and 14 CC. I bet you have never seen such thing again. Or Larva vs Mini final game. etc I dont even know why waste energy into this if the freakin argument is that Protoss cant beat zerg in a Final for 20 years. All of sudden we picking everygame possible but with selective players and also selective periods. For example Rain been onfire beating everyone but terran in the final. Same applies to Mini beating everyone but Terran in the Final. And you make it sound great that Snow been losing to X X and X when he was also eliminated in group Stages by Ggaemo. If we compare type of Class player that doesnt make any freakin sense right ? So who do we blame. Format balance player . other ? If you actually think there is no difference then i cant help but agree that protoss is indeed extremely weak compared to zerg. Another detail you are not going to like. Is the first season Bisu actually competed full screen after playing every freaking ASL season with a tiny small screen and you already could see the results. Semifinal and 1 game away with an insane blunder to make it to the final. And trust me im happy Soma won the ASL but would have been amazing to see a protoss FInal to have better maps next season. Anyway still interested to see your recopilate data from every Round of 8 onwards from every OSL/MSL/ASL/KSL to see the scores of zvp series. But if you dont wanna do it just stick to ASL. That will be fine with me too. SERIES no single maps. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 04:35 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Bisu is currently equal or better to top zergs, Snow online as well. Why he performs worse offline/ASL ask him. IMO Bisu is best PvZ right now. Soma is best ZvP. Soulkey is AWOL. In ASL just last month Bisu lost in last game to unfortunate misclick to ling all in. Snow lost with uninspiring performance. Just few days ago Bisu won easily vs Soma in sponsored BO7. To me at top level right now ZvP is balanced good enough. Whatever the word "balance" means to you. I don't mind people having their own opinions, but if this is the kind of logic you follow and at the same time you talk shite about me for having a different opinion to you, then next time you better just offer what you think and shut up after that. Basically you just described that since you saw player X beat player Y during a specific and very short amount of time, then that's enough evidence for you to show this matchup is balanced. What about sample size? What about long term, accumulated results? What about common trends? I guess this topic ends here though. Enough has been said. | ||
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88)trAncE
7 Posts
He's often away for 3 days, 4 days, 5 days, or even weeks/months, and even when he does play, he doesn't play at full capacity. All the recent ASL winners trained like crazy, unlike Bisu who doesn't train. That's why he'll never win the ASL, or at least not if he doesn't train like soma did or soulkey did last ASL. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 04:52 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Do i really need to explain to you whats means preparing for a group stage and preparing for a bracket with a bo5/bo7 format ? Even if you said yes i will not explain. thats on you. And if you think both are the same then we are cook. That said in a bo7 Mindgames from map to map are way stronger compared to a bo3 and can heavily affect result. Think Rush vs SOulkey with the mass 9pools and 14 CC. I bet you have never seen such thing again. Or Larva vs Mini final game. etc You have no method yourself. You're just trying to throw as much interferences as possible, however ridiculouse they are, into my method to discredit it, because my method points to the conclusion you don't like. Preparation may be different, but for the purpose of collecting data, all games are considered equal. Is there a game they can afford to lose lol? Also if we follow your kind of logic, then the importance of data will go like this: final > Ro4 > Ro8 > Ro16 > Ro24. Well, guess what final stats you don't like? I dont even know why waste energy into this if the freakin argument is that Protoss cant beat zerg in a Final for 20 years. All of sudden we picking everygame possible but with selective players and also selective periods. Selective players = top 3 of each race in that matchup. That's a solid criterion. What's the problem with that? Do you want to do top 4 5 6 7? I'm not against that either. But you have to explain why you choose the value. Keep in mind that (i) the further you expand, the closer you'll get to the global win rate of the match up, and (ii) outside the top 5, other Protoss players barely get into Ro8 anyway. Selective period = recent years. It's not like I picked an arbitrary time huh? Also originally it was a response to Soft_General's post. Once again, feel free to propose your time frame and explain why. For example Rain been onfire beating everyone but terran in the final. Same applies to Mini beating everyone but Terran in the Final. What the fuck? Rain only beat Ps in finals, never faced a Z in finals. Mini only beat Rush, lost to Z twice and T once in finals. You need a head check. And you make it sound great that Snow been losing to X X and X when he was also eliminated in group Stages by Ggaemo. If we compare type of Class player that doesnt make any freakin sense right ? So who do we blame. Format balance player . other ? Upsets happen in ASL. Players have ups and downs. Some players weren't good before but have been improving. Surprise? What about Soma exiting Ro24 by Ample then? Also, what's even your point here? You're so focused on throwing red herrings into the conversation you don't even realize you don't have a point or you're contradicting yourself. So you're suggesting because Snow lost to a low tier player like ggaemo, that means he's bad against Zerg. But on other posts when you want to show ZvP is balanced, you'd say Snow is godlike and is only losing narrowly to top Zergs. So wtf is your point then? If you actually think there is no difference then i cant help but agree that protoss is indeed extremely weak compared to zerg. Another detail you are not going to like. Is the first season Bisu actually competed full screen after playing every freaking ASL season with a tiny small screen and you already could see the results. Semifinal and 1 game away with an insane blunder to make it to the final. And trust me im happy Soma won the ASL but would have been amazing to see a protoss FInal to have better maps next season. This is clutching at straw territory. I hope for god's sake that he's improving because of the fullscreen lol. But it's not like Bisu has never had a run where he beat the likes Speed, TY, Queen, BTS and Larva to enter semifinals. And he both beat and lost to Soma in a series before lol. Anyway still interested to see your recopilate data from every Round of 8 onwards from every OSL/MSL/ASL/KSL to see the scores of zvp series. But if you dont wanna do it just stick to ASL. That will be fine with me too. SERIES no single maps. The 1-16 score above is that series result for you in the past 10 seasons of the top 3 vs top 3 There is no reason to discard the Bo3 results in Ro16. They are elimination games ffs. Even in the old ASL and OSL/MSL, they just had Bo3 in Ro8 lol. Note that I'm not including Ro16 (or the rare games in Ro24) to support my argument. It's just for the integrity of the method. As if P wins more in Ro8 onwards and lose more in Ro16 so that I manipulated the data that way to make Protoss look worse lol. Also you have to do top 3 vs top 3, or top 4 vs top 4, and so on... to be fair. If you're smart enough you would no why. If you don't I can explain. Funny that for someone accusing me of manipulating the data, you're trying to twist data sooooo hard in the hope that it would tilt in favor of the result you hope for. Pathetic. But as some kind of charity work for you: if we include Rain and Queen (only good for your side of argument as Queen took some beatdowns) to make it top 4 vs top 4, the series score for PvZ the last 10 seasons is: - 8-18 including the Bo3s in Ro16 (yes, Queen alone is responsible for 5 of the 8 series losses for Z, just like Snow for 8 of the 18 for P) - 5-10 from Ro8 only. - 7-13 if we extend to all 21 ASL seasons, Ro8 only - 9-14 if we count KSL too, Ro8 only Do the same math but extending to top 5 vs top 5, including Best and Effort in the equation, we get: - 12-20 in ASL from Ro8 only - 14-22 if we add KSL Looks like even if we manipulate the data your way, you still can't find the results you want. | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada125 Posts
Snow can be amazing online because people just mindlessly do generic builds, and Snow can just out micro people But in a tournament setting, he's terrible at planning, which often times matters way more Like Mini won an ASL just by out planning everyone I feel like Snow is getting the same treatment as Rain did back then, when people were so hyped about his godly PvP and calling him like the most talented Protoss ever which overshadowed how mediocre his PvT has always been (Also because people seem to really, really agree with Artosis' takes on just about everything) | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1477 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
Total series from Ro8 in ASL history (counting Vants starleague ) Zerg vs Protoss 26-22 Take in Mind Soulkey kinda destroyed the stats Take in Mind there was a season were the maps were extremely bad for zerg and not many zergs made it to Ro8. Funny enough that season the only zvp win is a third place match between Hero vs Mini haha.. I guess those stats scream imbalanced. | ||
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SCRVN
135 Posts
In 2025, I think 99% of Terran players have TvZ better than TvP; 99% of Zerg players have ZvP better than ZvT; 99% of Protoss players have PvT better than PvZ at all level. In 2050, if StarCraft will be still alive, I guess that 99% of Terran players have TvZ better than TvP; 99% of Zerg players have ZvP better than ZvT; 99% of Protoss players have PvT better than PvZ at all level. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 18 2025 14:31 jinjin5000 wrote: :^) Jinjin, you're to blame as you translated Snow's video saying he lost because he played badly, and Flash confirming it. Yet apparently it does not matter Game is still fun to watch balanced or not. Thanks for the translation. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 18 2025 04:35 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Bisu is currently equal or better to top zergs, Snow online as well. Why he performs worse offline/ASL ask him. IMO Bisu is best PvZ right now. Soma is best ZvP. Soulkey is AWOL. In ASL just last month Bisu lost in last game to unfortunate misclick to ling all in. Snow lost with uninspiring performance. Just few days ago Bisu won easily vs Soma in sponsored BO7. To me at top level right now ZvP is balanced good enough. Whatever the word "balance" means to you. I also keep track of the undocumented sponsor sets that the chinese organize but arent added to eloboard. Soma has played Bisu and SnOw multiple times since ASL ended. SnOw has about the same score. I can check later what the exact score and series count is. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 18:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: So you just said there is no difference in A group stage where players need to prepare for different players in the same day compared to a brack where u put all effort to prepare for 1 player in multiple maps. I think we just solved one of the big issues with your game understanding. Great news TMNT. Ah, same old eon. Incapable of responding to my argument. Pretend like you don't see anything. Keep repeating your rhetoric. It's literally written in my post that: Preparation may be different, but for the purpose of collecting data, all games are considered equal. Is there a game they can afford to lose lol? Plus, how does difference in preparation justify the removal of games in the group stage but not bracket stage? Does that mean Protoss win more or Zerg win more in group stage than bracket? Are games in group stage worthless? Last I check if you don't win in Ro16 you can't enter Ro8 lol. Can you elaborate? Then after that, verify your hypothesis with actual data (as if games in Ro16 skew the data in either way)? No you can't. You're just throwing shit into the conversation. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
That said your argument shifted with this new vision and now this means that Protoss cant beat zerg even in bo3. Honestly that is perfect for me. You either proved the imbalanced or you are just a clown. The reality is that zerg vs protoss from the Ro8 in ASL score is : Zerg vs Protoss 26-22 . is zerg leading ? for sure. But is zerg unbeatable like the number of champinships claim ? Nope. Is selective data manipulation by the protoss Cult. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 18:34 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Btw i did the work. Total series from Ro8 in ASL history (counting Vants starleague ) Zerg vs Protoss 26-22 Take in Mind Soulkey kinda destroyed the stats Take in Mind there was a season were the maps were extremely bad for zerg and not many zergs made it to Ro8. Funny enough that season the only zvp win is a third place match between Hero vs Mini haha.. I guess those stats scream imbalanced. Yes you manipulated the data. Nice. As said in my previous post, you have to do top 4 vs top 4, or top 5 vs top 5 only. But of course you ignored it. To explain to you like a 10 year old: let's say Dewalt were actually a Zerg player who were as good as Bonyth, so their head to head would be 50/50 (we don't care about balance here in this hypothetical situation) and the PvZ win rate would be 50%. Now throw you into the Zerg side but on the Protoss side there were still only Bonyth. Suddenly the PvZ win rate became 75% because Bonyth would beat you all the time but Dewalt only 50% of the time. You point to that and scream PvZ imba. But the data was skewed because you don't use the same population size for each race. When you work with such small sample sizes you have to control your groups carefully. There were 4 times a Protoss outside of top 5 entered the Ro8. There were 14 times for Zerg. So there's more chance for a top 5 P to beat an outside of top 5 Z than the reverse case. That's why when you do top 5 vs top 5 the score is 12-20 but when you include the whole population the score is 22-26. Compared to top 4 vs top 4, then top 3 vs top 3, don't you notice the more we increase the size the better it looks for Protoss? That's because as we increase the population, there are more lower tier Zergs for Protoss to beat to even out the stats. Actually when we talk about the global win rate of any matchup, we kinda accept this skewing of the data (mainly because it's difficult to refine it) but it's kinda more acceptable because global win rate = huge sample size. Not tiny like this case. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 20:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: We are arguing that Protoss cant never beat zerg in a Final. So what is the difference from Ro8 to the Final then. WHy protoss can beat zerg every round but the FInal. Because the Zergs in other rounds are not always as strong as the Zergs in the finals lol. Refer to my post above for more explanation. I'll give you another example: Bisu is the no.1 PvZ. So realitiscally he's only afraid of the top 3 Zergs for example. From top 4 and below he can overcome the matchup imbalance to beat them with skills. If he's given a run of Sacsri (Ro16), Action (Ro8) and Larva (Ro4), he'd beat them all. Does that already answer your question about why Protoss can beat Zerg in every round? Then in the finals Bisu meets either Soulkey, Soma or Hero where the skill gap is not that big for him to easily overcome the matchup imbalance. That's why you have to balance your data selection. Same size of group for each race okay? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 18 2025 20:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: There is bo1 in the mix. There are more opportunities to try stuff cuz you are not eliminated right away. Also I have to single this bit out as it's incredibly stupid lol. For a guy talking so much about skill and understanding of the game =) "You're not eliminated right away" lmao You're closer to being eliminated if you lose a map in Ro24 than you are in Ro8. And that's not even counting the fact that the shame that comes with being eliminated in Ro24 is much bigger lol. And yes historically the best players try stuff more in group stage Bo1s against weaker players that they can easily beat with standard play =) You're trying to twist reality so hard you end up making a clown of yourself. See people, this is what happens when you're more concerned with a personal agenda against another person rather than thinking with your brain to find the truth. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1109 Posts
Enough please | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
565 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3119 Posts
On November 18 2025 22:44 TornadoSteve wrote: Boring&pathetic. Enough please On November 19 2025 01:15 CHEONSOYUN wrote: yes please stop posting and go outside Music. IDK why TMNT routinely turns these threads into his personal text chain as if we're meant to be an eager audience to these unending arguments that have no good outcomes. Like I get that forum discourse has a ceiling but idk why it has to be brought down to ankle height. Like if you truly cared that much about the state of the game (enough to bring it up in every thread), there's so much you could say and do to open up the discussion and include people instead of making them want to throw you into solitary confinement with a bag over your head. Like hey I drew some shit on a tileset that I think would help against hydra busts, or hey here's my map idea, or my silly patch notes. Instead we're just frothing at the mouth like that guy in The Fugitive who pretends to have a seizure so he can escape, in that bus/train scene. Like when he bends over and puts the tablet in his mouth and starts convulsing cottage cheese. Anyways that guy immediately gets shot in the chest with a shotgun. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland595 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 19 2025 18:56 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: does anyone still know where the thread is with the winrates based on gametime per match up? i think u are talking about the thread showed on this video ? apparently is a kraekling thread. | ||
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rotta
5599 Posts
On November 19 2025 18:56 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: does anyone still know where the thread is with the winrates based on gametime per match up? https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617209-data-analysis-on-8-million-games https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/617591-lots-of-stats-from-the-asl-ksl-era-of-pro-broodwar | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On October 11 2023 07:16 Kraekkling wrote: Influence by level of play based on MMR. Here, MMR data is used to examine the balance. A match-mmr is determined by taking the average MMR of the two players (initial MMR values before the match was played). Several brackets of games are defined and compared. Additionally, a requirement is imposed on the max difference of player MMR, to ensure only games of a meaningful skill difference are taken into account. For example, in red are games with - match-mmr below 1800, and difference of MMR of both player is below 200 The requirements are somewhat loosened as games of higher level are examined, as can be seen in the labels. Take note of the big error bars in some of the brackets in the later stages of the game; that is don't draw too many conclusions from those data points. PvT+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/nmZ06cJ/racial-win-rate-vs-time-pvt-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png) The game balance is even at an MMR above 1800 and tils slowly towards Terran the higher we go. At the highest level the matchup is roughly 52% in Terrans favour. PvZ+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/Qb40CXm/racial-win-rate-vs-time-pvz-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png) Protoss is behind in all brackets and gets dominated at the highest levels where they achieve an overall win rate of 46%. TvZ+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/RCDHCv2/racial-win-rate-vs-time-tvz-selectioncomparison-MMR-Groups.png) Again we see a clear trend where the matchup becomes more favoured towards Terran as player skill increases. It looks like high-level Zerg vs Terran is the hardest matchup in broodwar. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 19 2025 15:01 RogerChillingworth wrote: Music. IDK why TMNT routinely turns these threads into his personal text chain as if we're meant to be an eager audience to these unending arguments that have no good outcomes. Like I get that forum discourse has a ceiling but idk why it has to be brought down to ankle height. Like if you truly cared that much about the state of the game (enough to bring it up in every thread), there's so much you could say and do to open up the discussion and include people instead of making them want to throw you into solitary confinement with a bag over your head. Like hey I drew some shit on a tileset that I think would help against hydra busts, or hey here's my map idea, or my silly patch notes. Instead we're just frothing at the mouth like that guy in The Fugitive who pretends to have a seizure so he can escape, in that bus/train scene. Like when he bends over and puts the tablet in his mouth and starts convulsing cottage cheese. Anyways that guy immediately gets shot in the chest with a shotgun. I don't like wall of text either but what do I have to do when there are people constantly attacking me with baseless arguments? Like when I posted some H2H ASL stats between the top 3 players of each race in #179, which is just presenting information like what RJBTV did in #174. Then eonzerg dived in and spouted a load of shite about me and my posts. In which case I have the rights / need to defense myself, which unfortunately leads to a lot of unnecessary back and forth. I don't like staying silent because that would imply I have no arguments or in the wrong. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1109 Posts
I don't like staying silent because that would imply I have no arguments or in the wrong. Sounds like my gf lol | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
565 Posts
On November 19 2025 22:02 TMNT wrote: I don't like staying silent because that would imply I have no arguments or in the wrong. nobody cares especially after 55+ whiny posts | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 19 2025 19:09 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: apparently is a kraekling thread. I've been putting off doing an update on this since forever... will do soon. I'll be adding some new stuff as well, if anyone has specific ideas or wishes - write them here - I might include it 44 MILLION new replays on repmastered in 2025 alone!! ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/QvQ9xrDQ/repamster.png) btw boys, consider donating an € or a dollar to repmastered, this is literally our library of alexandria and icza is doing this for free and hosting does cost money | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 19 2025 22:59 TornadoSteve wrote: I don't like staying silent because that would imply I have no arguments or in the wrong. Sounds like my gf lol What a stupid thing to say because (i) you are implying your gf behaviour is negative thing, thus disrespecting her and/or being misogynistic, and (ii) more importantly, I'm not in a relationship or have friendship with anyone here so why do I have to refrain. I swear these lot who go around in forums making comments about other people instead of the topic are not very smart, hence their contributions are absolutely worthless. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 19 2025 23:32 CHEONSOYUN wrote: nobody cares especially after 55+ whiny posts Since when providing information and making arguments based on that is considered whiny? Like if I say Protoss has inferior win rate to Zerg is that whiny or I'm just stating a fact? Also what a coincidence the majority of people who have a problem with my posts are... guess what? Zerg supporters or players. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 19 2025 23:33 Kraekkling wrote: I've been putting off doing an update on this since forever... will do soon. I'll be adding some new stuff as well, if anyone has specific ideas or wishes - write them here - I might include it 44 MILLION new replays on repmastered in 2025 alone!! I will think about it and see if there is something worth adding. Its me or this amount of replays could be an indicative of Broodwar popolarity rising the past years ? BTW something interesting about late game balance is that zerg has to be very well stablish mid game not getting major damage no blundering costly units etc to be able to hold protoss and get use of hive tech. WHile protoss as long as the game is equal Mid game the have an advantage going into late game. Another interesting thing is that early game if Protoss plays a high risk high reward build. Lets say 1 gate nexus or nexus first into forge 1 canon there is always the chance for the game to end really quick. Either by micro mistakes or by just no sending enough workers to block the lings and ending up dying cuz of 1 canon. maybe in the future build orders will be part of stats too. | ||
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Malinor
Germany4734 Posts
On November 19 2025 23:33 Kraekkling wrote: I've been putting off doing an update on this since forever... will do soon. I'll be adding some new stuff as well, if anyone has specific ideas or wishes - write them here - I might include it 44 MILLION new replays on repmastered in 2025 alone!! btw boys, consider donating an € or a dollar to repmastered, this is literally our library of alexandria and icza is doing this for free and hosting does cost money The game is 27 years old and there are new replays of 44 Million 1v1s from 2025 alone. This makes me so happy, I could cry. What a game. Re-visiting Kraekklings analysis from back in the day also revealed again to me, what a masterpiece of balance bw is. Three totally different match-ups and you arrive on aggregate at win percentages of 48-52%... absolutely masterful. It is very unfortunate, that on the very highest level, Protoss percentages drop by an observable margin. I know there are people out there saying, only the matchups at the very top matters to evaluate balance. But I am not of that opinion. The game would not be beloved in the way it is, if you would not have a decent shot at winning on nearly every map at every level (and even 40:60 are still very decent odds). edit: just donated to RepMastered. Thank you for making me aware that this site exists. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 19 2025 23:33 Kraekkling wrote: I've been putting off doing an update on this since forever... will do soon. I'll be adding some new stuff as well, if anyone has specific ideas or wishes - write them here - I might include it can you do similar stats based on available data in eloboard results, which only registers top level korean players official games? only maps names and players/races are published there though https://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=bat maybe some basic race/map winrates can done within that site, but i am no korean speaker | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3119 Posts
On November 19 2025 22:02 TMNT wrote: I don't like wall of text either but what do I have to do when there are people constantly attacking me with baseless arguments? Like when I posted some H2H ASL stats between the top 3 players of each race in #179, which is just presenting information like what RJBTV did in #174. Then eonzerg dived in and spouted a load of shite about me and my posts. In which case I have the rights / need to defense myself, which unfortunately leads to a lot of unnecessary back and forth. I don't like staying silent because that would imply I have no arguments or in the wrong. I feel like you attract the arguments because you go hard into debate with everyone. If you focused more on being constructive, as corny as it sounds, and positing some clever solutions, the nature of the discussion would shift dramatically away from balance debate into something much more engaging (I would like to show some examples but I don't have the time atm). Otherwise it just seems like the goal isn't to make the game better or increase understanding of it, but to be right in an argument. Which is all good sometimes. Who doesn't enjoy a good evisceration. But the discussions could be better. Even now you are responding to people yet again and arguing the same points. There is nothing to gain from it. If I were you I'd go learn the piano or something. Like seriously, not trying to be condescending, just take it from a 90 year old. Time is valuable. Don't waste it on this BS. : ) | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
will do soon man what If I told you that I'm looking at stuff right now that will blow everyones mind. at least I am very surprised to see what I see... need to do some sanity checks and stuff like that first. also I'm on the 2024 dataset right now, gonna get the most recent one in the next few days from icza, but this shouldn't change anything now, until I show you the new data, please ponder on the very simple question: how balanced are spawn locations? | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 20 2025 01:33 Soft_General_5023 wrote: can you do similar stats based on available data in eloboard results, which only registers top level korean players official games? only maps names and players/races are published there though https://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=bat maybe some basic race/map winrates can done within that site, but i am no korean speaker unfortunately no, because they track only some data by hand for these games. but you can at least see data for specific maps here. use the auto translate of your browser (or some extension) to go from korean->english for the map names from repmastered I can get much more data since the actual game replays were processed also in general we're talking about several orders of magnitute of difference in statistics, so its not really comparable | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
On November 20 2025 01:39 Kraekkling wrote: man what If I told you that I'm looking at stuff right now that will blow everyones mind. at least I am very surprised to see what I see... need to do some sanity checks and stuff like that first. also I'm on the 2024 dataset right now, gonna get the most recent one in the next few days from icza, but this shouldn't change anything now, until I show you the new data, please ponder on the very simple question: how balanced are spawn locations? Well many years ago i played a friend and the game was lagging so we had to leave it. Then he was kinda mad cuz he got the best spawn on FS (Top rigth) but i didnt know what the hell he was talking about, And that day i learnt that top right on FS was insane eco for Protoss. So would notice in games faster sair. faster zealot speed. And even more minerals to defend hydra rush. So that day i learnt how it was so hard to beat protoss on that spawn particulary. cuz before that i noticed how hard it always was but i didnt have an explanation. Saying that Ofc the way you do timings and the way you attack is super important when do you spawn And even the defense is also different depending where do you spawn. In recent times Before the nerf Sylphid top spawn was great for zerg cuz your get your 9pool at 0.59 xD . Depending on Spawns you are giving up on builds you can execute pretty much. I guess thats what happened to Snow in the final vs Soma and his explanation. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 20 2025 01:44 Kraekkling wrote: unfortunately no, because they track only some data by hand for these games. but you can at least see data for specific maps here. use the auto translate of your browser (or some extension) to go from korean->english for the map names from repmastered I can get much more data since the actual game replays were processed also in general we're talking about several orders of magnitute of difference in statistics, so its not really comparable thank you, that map stat link is quite helpful, didn't know that Vermeer and Polestar are such a Terran favoured maps. On all 20 most played maps, Terran has over 50% winrate, Artosis, where art thou? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 20 2025 01:34 RogerChillingworth wrote: I feel like you attract the arguments because you go hard into debate with everyone. If you focused more on being constructive, as corny as it sounds, and positing some clever solutions, the nature of the discussion would shift dramatically away from balance debate into something much more engaging (I would like to show some examples but I don't have the time atm). Otherwise it just seems like the goal isn't to make the game better or increase understanding of it, but to be right in an argument. Which is all good sometimes. Who doesn't enjoy a good evisceration. But the discussions could be better. Even now you are responding to people yet again and arguing the same points. There is nothing to gain from it. If I were you I'd go learn the piano or something. Like seriously, not trying to be condescending, just take it from a 90 year old. Time is valuable. Don't waste it on this BS. : ) TMNT's problem in his methodology he does not stick to purely objectively and neutrally responding only to the argument being made. He gets baited into all the opinionated fluff around the argument. the correct play is to ignore it and stick to just the argument. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 20 2025 02:36 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: TMNT's problem in his methodology he does not stick to purely objectively and neutrally responding only to the argument being made. Snow explicitly said that there is no ZvP imbalance and he lost due to playing badly. What is Snow's problem in his methodology in your opinion? TMNT is saying that Snow is lying because of "image". | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 20 2025 01:34 RogerChillingworth wrote: I feel like you attract the arguments because you go hard into debate with everyone. If you focused more on being constructive, as corny as it sounds, and positing some clever solutions, the nature of the discussion would shift dramatically away from balance debate into something much more engaging (I would like to show some examples but I don't have the time atm). Otherwise it just seems like the goal isn't to make the game better or increase understanding of it, but to be right in an argument. Which is all good sometimes. Who doesn't enjoy a good evisceration. But the discussions could be better. Even now you are responding to people yet again and arguing the same points. There is nothing to gain from it. If I were you I'd go learn the piano or something. Like seriously, not trying to be condescending, just take it from a 90 year old. Time is valuable. Don't waste it on this BS. : ) I don't deny that the bold parts are mostly true. But it doesn't help me that the people who argue with me are neither being constructive nor respectful. The main culprit is eonzerg. Like what you're gonna do when you post something then eonzerg dives in talking shite about you on a personal level, while misunderstanding what you say, using flawed logic, and posting wrong facts, all at the same time? My method is to point out one by one every single thing he's wrong about. To be honest I know he's gonna ignore all of them again and again lol, but it just feels wrong to me to not do it. (Well, when I have time of course, which at the moment is quite plenty) | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 20 2025 03:17 TMNT wrote: (Well, when I have time of course, which at the moment is quite plenty) If you have plenty of time then maybe, as suggested, you could learn to how to play piano, chess .. Or, dare to say, some obscure almost 30 year old RTS game? | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway764 Posts
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 20 2025 04:43 Soft_General_5023 wrote: If you have plenty of time then maybe, as suggested, you could learn to how to play piano, chess .. Or, dare to say, some obscure almost 30 year old RTS game? How do you know I don't play the game? All of us here probably used to play or are still playing to some capacity. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 20 2025 02:47 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Snow explicitly said that there is no ZvP imbalance and he lost due to playing badly. What is Snow's problem in his methodology in your opinion? TMNT is saying that Snow is lying because of "image". Both can be true. There can both be a minor imbalance and Snow playing bad. One does not cancel out the other. That part of your argument is you assuming and inducing too much without there being logical ground to conclude that much. This makes your argument a fallacy. TMNT is right in that It is true that in Korean culture it is considered shameful to blame or say something that would depict another in a negative light. Claiming there's imbalance that caused SoMa to win would be exactly that. It would reflect poorly on both Soma and SnOw. However, this does not eliminate the possibility, which is very likely, that SnOw sincerely does not believe there is any imbalance. However, SnOw saying there is or is no imbalance, does not serve as evidence that there is or is not. Whatever SnOw believes would be subjective opinion, an anecdote of sorts. Anecdotal evidence is a fallacy and can not be considered robust enough to support a notion. Neither SnOw being for or against the notion of there being imbalance proves or disproves either. It is really just an opinion, which we can take into consideration, but which we can not lend more credence to than that. Hence we must rely on data and data interpretation. The more data we have, the more we can interpreted and extrapolate from said data. However we must tread carefully not to induce too much into said datasets, because then it would become too opinionated, and as stated above, an opinion that relies too heavily on induction, not deduction, would be disqualified for being a fallacy. Need help determining all fallacies? https://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/engl1311/fallacies.htm | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
Yes this thread deteriorated from the debate of the game balance to the debate of a person balance. And no one is any wiser I think. I am sorry and out. Maybe more constructive posts can be made in this thread asking map makers, as the game can be only balanced by maps now. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 20 2025 13:55 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Time to end the debate when ChatGPT steps in, LoL Yes this thread deteriorated from the debate of the game balance to the debate of a person balance. And no one is any wiser I think. I am sorry and out. Maybe more constructive posts can be made in this thread asking map makers, as the game can be only balanced by maps now. ChatGPT commands thee to return to productivity! | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem. In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things. Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct  ). | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 20 2025 21:59 darktreb wrote: Haven't posted in forever in part because TMNT singlehandedly makes TL forums 50% worse. Won't post again any time soon for this same reason. Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem. In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things. Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct ).four steps: be polite stick to the message, ignore noise be open minded and contemplate alternatives to your own argument. try to see it from another perspective. don't argue in absolutes and certainties. knowledge and perspectives and data interpretation are subjective. they lead us closer to a potential truth, but we can rarely be certain it is the objective truth. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 20 2025 21:59 darktreb wrote: Haven't posted in forever in part because TMNT singlehandedly makes TL forums 50% worse. Won't post again any time soon for this same reason. Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem. In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things. Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct ).If I'm not mistaken, you seem to imply that "the way I argue" is only about style but not substance? As if my argumentative posts don't contain logical reasoning and facts (even visual aids lol)? And how is your statement in the last paragraph (which is an ad hominem btw) accurate when you've provided fuck all argument to support it? Basically you've spouted a lot of shite without showing any evidences to prove it in your entire post, while committingat least 2 logical fallacies, yet your statements are "accurate" by default and everyone should focus on that huh? I was about to write some insulting comments using the same logic you've used here to say about me, but then I thought this dude is probably baiting me to get a ban. So nah ah. But I'm sure you know what I'd say. | ||
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BulgarianToss
Bulgaria490 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3119 Posts
On November 26 2025 04:58 BulgarianToss wrote: I think Flash hinted at something about optimization issue and overreliance on reaver micro, but i cannot be sure. I will take him seriously when he comes back competing and wins ASL as Protoss to show them all how optimized play makes Protoss a great race again. Would love to see this but Terran also needs its heroes these days. | ||
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SiarX
132 Posts
On November 20 2025 02:47 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Snow explicitly said that there is no ZvP imbalance and he lost due to playing badly. Korean pros almost never blame balance for defeats. It is considered a bad tone. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey659 Posts
On November 20 2025 21:59 darktreb wrote: Haven't posted in forever in part because TMNT singlehandedly makes TL forums 50% worse. Won't post again any time soon for this same reason. Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem. In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things. Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct ).I guess you cannot blame someone for not coming to the point already when they have previously pointed out they have too much free time on their hands. Some people choose to make it hard on themselves and there is nothing you can do about it other than witnessing endless walls of texts that go absolutely nowhere. On November 26 2025 04:58 BulgarianToss wrote: I think Flash hinted at something about optimization issue and overreliance on reaver micro, but i cannot be sure. I will take him seriously when he comes back competing and wins ASL as Protoss to show them all how optimized play makes Protoss a great race again. Flash means Snow cannot macro and it is true. There are much better macro protoss players like Best who max out at 12 minutes or something. However Snow's weakness is not that he microes hard, it is that it becomes predictable which is the primary reason ASL runner ups and champions get toppled and enter a slump because everyone can copy the winning strategy afterwards. What is great about Flash is he is a bit like Rain, unpredictable. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On December 15 2025 21:21 mtcn77 wrote: I guess you cannot blame someone for not coming to the point already when they have previously pointed out they have too much free time on their hands. Some people choose to make it hard on themselves and there is nothing you can do about it other than witnessing endless walls of texts that go absolutely nowhere. Flash means Snow cannot macro and it is true. There are much better macro protoss players like Best who max out at 12 minutes or something. However Snow's weakness is not that he microes hard, it is that it becomes predictable which is the primary reason ASL runner ups and champions get toppled and enter a slump because everyone can copy the winning strategy afterwards. What is great about Flash is he is a bit like Rain, unpredictable. SnOw is not bad at macro at all, but he consciously decides to prioritize micro over macro because he excells specifically at micro. His micro is better than anyone else's, and focusing on micro tends to benefit him. But his focus on micro does come at the cost of losing out on macro. due to the finite input over time nature of broodwar all playstyles have pros and cons. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey659 Posts
On December 16 2025 00:57 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: SnOw is not bad at macro at all, but he consciously decides to prioritize micro over macro because he excells specifically at micro. His micro is better than anyone else's, and focusing on micro tends to benefit him. But his focus on micro does come at the cost of losing out on macro. due to the finite input over time nature of broodwar all playstyles have pros and cons. That is why I brought Flash into the discussion. He can play random. He is the 4th race. No one can replicate it in a single race. You are just not random enough to warrant a bog standard blind opener like Flash does. In the end information asymmetry is what wins Starcraft games. Everybody can play micro, or macro. Random; now that is totally out of the blue. | ||
ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1706 Posts
Watching this does make me think how great it must be within the scene to have very high level coaching and knowledge in such abundance now. The idea of having Flash's thoughts on how another top-level pro could play better and win in the biggest stage in BW is just a great resource. | ||
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TornadoSteve
1109 Posts
On December 16 2025 00:57 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:but he consciously decides to prioritize micro over macro ding ding ding | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
Ding dong ding! | ||
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HaFnium
United Kingdom1076 Posts
On December 18 2025 00:23 ImbaTosS wrote: It would be interesting to me if FlaSh did just pick a different race! Actually full on switched. Not that I actually give a fuck about this endless balance bullshit, it would just be fun to see the greatest ever player just do something different, again. Watching this does make me think how great it must be within the scene to have very high level coaching and knowledge in such abundance now. The idea of having Flash's thoughts on how another top-level pro could play better and win in the biggest stage in BW is just a great resource. I agree. Whilst his random run was impressive I'd like to see how he well he can play protoss and hopefuly lead to some meta change. If I'm not wrong he demonstrated mass shuttle plays which were not the meta back then. Playing protoss is harder than playing random IMO... | ||
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jefferymoris
United States1 Post
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Jealous
10285 Posts
On December 19 2025 06:08 HaFnium wrote: I agree. Whilst his random run was impressive I'd like to see how he well he can play protoss and hopefuly lead to some meta change. If I'm not wrong he demonstrated mass shuttle plays which were not the meta back then. Playing protoss is harder than playing random IMO... Mass Shuttle was at least a year old at that point IIRC but someone more versed, please feel free to correct. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia936 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6812 Posts
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1706 Posts
On December 19 2025 06:08 HaFnium wrote: I agree. Whilst his random run was impressive I'd like to see how he well he can play protoss and hopefuly lead to some meta change. If I'm not wrong he demonstrated mass shuttle plays which were not the meta back then. Playing protoss is harder than playing random IMO... Random definitely does throw a very different curveball into the mix for your opponent, so I can see that playing random and getting protoss is a different ballgame than picking protoss. Harder or not thought, I'm not sure. Perhaps, since Korean pros seem to generally be pretty decent at all their offraces anyhow. | ||
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SiarX
132 Posts
On December 16 2025 01:51 mtcn77 wrote: That is why I brought Flash into the discussion. He can play random. He is the 4th race. No one can replicate it in a single race. You are just not random enough to warrant a bog standard blind opener like Flash does. In the end information asymmetry is what wins Starcraft games. Everybody can play micro, or macro. Random; now that is totally out of the blue. While effective random play is hard indeed, it also has huge advantage of throwing off opponent`s plans. Besides, we did not see much of Flash as random player, how consistent and strong his perfomance would have been? No one knows, a single run is not enough. | ||
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