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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6771 Posts
TMNT no one was asking for the BS you posted. Please put actual results of zvp series starting from Round of 8 and show why protoss can beat them except the Final. You are boring with the same rethoric and stats manipulation homie. And funny enough Soma and SNow were 3-3 before the final ? Damn TMNT. So we can absolute guess that every Soma series he won is cuz zerg is imbalanced and Snow only win fair and square. | ||
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TMNT
3082 Posts
Snow and Soma map score is 3-4 in the last 10 seasons. They only played 1 game before the last final, when Snow won. Then you add the 2-4 and get 3-4. Do you think Snow and Soma have played 7 series in ASL. And Snow and Soulkey have played 19? Where's your brain? I mean it's really not that hard to fact check yourself, if you don't remember. You never do so, yet you jump to your conclusion with incredible arrogance and aggression, and by doing so just exposes your stupidity. More on other points later. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6771 Posts
On November 18 2025 01:19 TMNT wrote: Your stupidity is beyond comprehension eon. Snow and Soma map score is 3-4 in the last 10 seasons. They only played 1 game before the last final, when Snow won. Then you add the 2-4 and get 3-4. Do you think Snow and Soma have played 7 series in ASL. And Snow and Soulkey have played 19? Where's your brain? I mean it's really not that hard to fact check yourself, if you don't remember. You never do so, yet you jump to your conclusion with incredible arrogance and aggression, and by doing so just exposes your stupidity. More on other points later. I gave you too much credit in my Mind cuz there is no way we arguing that Protoss cant beat zerg in series but you came with the great idea of putting single maps. I thought the SK vs SNow number was odd but still could be from groups stages who knows. So i guess the debate of Protoss beating zerg in a series is not important anymore right TMNT ZHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA | ||
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Darkwhite
Norway352 Posts
On November 18 2025 00:50 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Can you name of above, the serie, or the game where you think that protoss loss due ZvP imbalance? Try doing this for chess. Can you point to a game where black lost "beacuse of imbalance"? If not, does this mean that chess is "balanced" for black? | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6771 Posts
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Kraekkling
559 Posts
On November 15 2025 18:35 Bonyth wrote: I believe if there is about 40% protoss players on the world, then we should have 40% of them being champions well that sounds pretty woke to me. There could be some underlying variable which makes someone more likely to pick Protoss, which at the same time makes them less likely to become champions? There's somewhat of a sentiment amongst the community that Protoss players are kinda retarded. We don't say that about Terran or Zerg players. Picking Protoss does not make you retarded, but, on average, Protoss players could be more retarded, so they don't become champions as often as we'd naively expect. Then we also have Stereotype threat. All these discussions that we have about Protoss being weaker makes Protoss players believe it themselves, which results in them performing worse. This is a well documented and accepted finding. So in fact, all the people arguing against ZvP imba are helping Protoss players to perform better in the future. or...+ Show Spoiler + it's the maps | ||
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TMNT
3082 Posts
On November 18 2025 01:54 Kraekkling wrote: well that sounds pretty woke to me. There could be some underlying variable which makes someone more likely to pick Protoss, which at the same time makes them less likely to become champions? There's somewhat of a sentiment amongst the community that Protoss players are kinda retarded. We don't say that about Terran or Zerg players. Picking Protoss does not make you retarded, but, on average, Protoss players could be more retarded, so they don't become champions as often as we'd naively expect. Then we also have Stereotype threat. All these discussions that we have about Protoss being weaker makes Protoss players believe it themselves, which results in them performing worse. This is a well documented and accepted finding. So in fact, all the people arguing against ZvP imba are helping Protoss players to perform better in the future. or...+ Show Spoiler + it's the maps I hope this is satirical, otherwise you'd have to provide analyses to prove it, as you have the burden of proof or something like that, I don't know.... And to expand on the second point, I believe when players whose original race is Terran or Zerg switch to Protoss, they become retarded too. So it's pretty much something to do with the race itself rather than the players. I dont have the necessary analysis to back it up tho. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
100 Posts
On November 18 2025 01:36 Darkwhite wrote: Try doing this for chess. Can you point to a game where black lost "beacuse of imbalance"? If not, does this mean that chess is "balanced" for black? In chess if black mirrors the white, it will lose in 4 moves, technically black did nothing wrong just did exactly as good as white. Imbalance Not sure it applies to protoss lol | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1032 Posts
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TMNT
3082 Posts
On November 18 2025 01:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I gave you too much credit in my Mind cuz there is no way we arguing that Protoss cant beat zerg in series but you came with the great idea of putting single maps. I thought the SK vs SNow number was odd but still could be from groups stages who knows. So i guess the debate of Protoss beating zerg in a series is not important anymore right TMNT ZHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA Honestly your behavior is fucking disgusting as a grown man. Your shamelessnes knows no bound. Everytime I point out that you're factually wrong about something, instead of admitting the mistake, you just gloss over, ignore it, pretend like it never happens. Never a single "my bad I got it wrong". Just keep doubling down or diverting into something else. Like the last time you accused me of claiming Snow was the best Protoss ever, while in fact I said he has the best peak in PvT. Then you followed up by acting like they are the same concept lmao. So much for "high skill". So because you thought it was series scores that you wrote the whole part about group stage, Ro16 and MSL? Makes yourself look like a mug now. | ||
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TMNT
3082 Posts
On November 18 2025 01:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Let me explain to you what TMNT did there. Cuz we already know how his tricks works cuz is been a while. Do you see how he purposefully included round of 16 in the mix ? WHen no one is asking for group stage ? Round of 16 should be relevant to a Tournament like MSL (But they also changed the format few times so it has to be for only the seasons they used such format.Or Gomtv STarleague) But since our friend TMNT is cherrypicking like Usual. What he did is picking the best players of Now. ANd counted every round since group stage LMAO. ANd totally ignored that SNow has been godlike past 2 years. Maybe 3. He totally ignored Rain peak and deleted his pvz results. TMNT no one was asking for the BS you posted. Please put actual results of zvp series starting from Round of 8 and show why protoss can beat them except the Final. You are boring with the same rethoric and stats manipulation homie. And funny enough Soma and SNow were 3-3 before the final ? Damn TMNT. So we can absolute guess that every Soma series he won is cuz zerg is imbalanced and Snow only win fair and square. Now onto the Starcraft part. What's the issue with including group stage? There're Bo3s in Ro16 of ASL just like MSL. What's the problem? What's the problem with counting map score anyway? Are they not games you can't lose? By the way the overall series score of Bisu Snow Mini vs Soulkey Soma Hero in the last 10 seasons is 1-16 (the one single win by Bisu). Does that look any better compared to map score now for your agenda? Feel free to add Rain's run in ASL13 to the mix and even remove Snow entirely (not that it's the right methodology mind - that's actually manipulating the data to make Protoss look slightly less worse - as if Rain would beat Soulkey in his threepeat lol) and we get to 3-9. And what's wrong with picking those 3 players by the way? Are they not the best of each race in the last 10 seasons? Pick any time frame you want and with the score being 1-16 there's no way you can manipulate it to make Protoss look better lol. Also feel free to propose your data choosing method and explain why it is appropriate. But remember that the reason I made this post is actually a response to Soft_General's post where he said: But in ASL i prefer Bisu and Mini PvZ. Current ASL results are about right IMO ( Bisu equal or better to top zergs, Snow is not). So I just wanted to explore if Bisu is really equal or better to top Zergs in ASL. The result: he's not. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
100 Posts
On November 18 2025 03:06 TMNT wrote: So I just wanted to explore if Bisu is really equal or better to top Zergs in ASL. The result: he's not. In current ASL : Now, current time/mappool/meta/form he is better at PvZ than Snow. Especially offline as it's Snow's weakness. Look at eloboard. Bisu just destroyed Soma 4:1. But who is best PvZ player right now is separate issue than general ZvP imbalance. Alleged. | ||
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TMNT
3082 Posts
On November 18 2025 03:33 Soft_General_5023 wrote: In current ASL : Now, current time/mappool/meta/form he is better at PvZ than Snow. Especially offline as it's Snow's weakness. Look at eloboard. Bisu just destroyed Soma 4:1. But who is best PvZ player right now is separate issue than general ZvP imbalance. Alleged. But you just said ASL in the first sentence and in the very next sentence referred to an online result. Also you wrote "Bisu equal or better to top zergs, Snow is not", which means you were comparing Bisu vs Zergs. Bisu's records vs 'top' Zergs in recent ASL seasons: - ASL20: 3-4 Soma, 4-1 Larva, 1-0 Queen - ASL19: 0-1 Queen, 0-2 Action - ASL18: 1-2 Hero, 1-0 JD - ASL17: 0-2 Soulkey - ASL16: 0-1 Soulkey - ASL15: 0-2 Hero Only wins are vs tier 2 Zergs (Larva, JD), even one loss vs tier 2 (Action) and tie 1-1 vs tier 1.5 (Queen). That's best PvZ player in ASL for you. Snow's results are not better mind, but he's been mostly playing Soulkey in ASL. I don't deny their online results are much better though. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
100 Posts
IMO Bisu is best PvZ right now. Soma is best ZvP. Soulkey is AWOL. In ASL just last month Bisu lost in last game to unfortunate misclick to ling all in. Snow lost with uninspiring performance. Just few days ago Bisu won easily vs Soma in sponsored BO7. To me at top level right now ZvP is balanced good enough. Whatever the word "balance" means to you. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6771 Posts
On November 18 2025 03:06 TMNT wrote: Now onto the Starcraft part. What's the issue with including group stage? There're Bo3s in Ro16 of ASL just like MSL. What's the problem? What's the problem with counting map score anyway? Are they not games you can't lose? By the way the overall series score of Bisu Snow Mini vs Soulkey Soma Hero in the last 10 seasons is 1-16 (the one single win by Bisu). Does that look any better compared to map score now for your agenda? Feel free to add Rain's run in ASL13 to the mix and even remove Snow entirely (not that it's the right methodology mind - that's actually manipulating the data to make Protoss look slightly less worse - as if Rain would beat Soulkey in his threepeat lol) and we get to 3-9. And what's wrong with picking those 3 players by the way? Are they not the best of each race in the last 10 seasons? Pick any time frame you want and with the score being 1-16 there's no way you can manipulate it to make Protoss look better lol. Also feel free to propose your data choosing method and explain why it is appropriate. But remember that the reason I made this post is actually a response to Soft_General's post where he said: So I just wanted to explore if Bisu is really equal or better to top Zergs in ASL. The result: he's not. Do i really need to explain to you whats means preparing for a group stage and preparing for a bracket with a bo5/bo7 format ? Even if you said yes i will not explain. thats on you. And if you think both are the same then we are cook. That said in a bo7 Mindgames from map to map are way stronger compared to a bo3 and can heavily affect result. Think Rush vs SOulkey with the mass 9pools and 14 CC. I bet you have never seen such thing again. Or Larva vs Mini final game. etc I dont even know why waste energy into this if the freakin argument is that Protoss cant beat zerg in a Final for 20 years. All of sudden we picking everygame possible but with selective players and also selective periods. For example Rain been onfire beating everyone but terran in the final. Same applies to Mini beating everyone but Terran in the Final. And you make it sound great that Snow been losing to X X and X when he was also eliminated in group Stages by Ggaemo. If we compare type of Class player that doesnt make any freakin sense right ? So who do we blame. Format balance player . other ? If you actually think there is no difference then i cant help but agree that protoss is indeed extremely weak compared to zerg. Another detail you are not going to like. Is the first season Bisu actually competed full screen after playing every freaking ASL season with a tiny small screen and you already could see the results. Semifinal and 1 game away with an insane blunder to make it to the final. And trust me im happy Soma won the ASL but would have been amazing to see a protoss FInal to have better maps next season. Anyway still interested to see your recopilate data from every Round of 8 onwards from every OSL/MSL/ASL/KSL to see the scores of zvp series. But if you dont wanna do it just stick to ASL. That will be fine with me too. SERIES no single maps. | ||
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TMNT
3082 Posts
On November 18 2025 04:35 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Bisu is currently equal or better to top zergs, Snow online as well. Why he performs worse offline/ASL ask him. IMO Bisu is best PvZ right now. Soma is best ZvP. Soulkey is AWOL. In ASL just last month Bisu lost in last game to unfortunate misclick to ling all in. Snow lost with uninspiring performance. Just few days ago Bisu won easily vs Soma in sponsored BO7. To me at top level right now ZvP is balanced good enough. Whatever the word "balance" means to you. I don't mind people having their own opinions, but if this is the kind of logic you follow and at the same time you talk shite about me for having a different opinion to you, then next time you better just offer what you think and shut up after that. Basically you just described that since you saw player X beat player Y during a specific and very short amount of time, then that's enough evidence for you to show this matchup is balanced. What about sample size? What about long term, accumulated results? What about common trends? I guess this topic ends here though. Enough has been said. | ||
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88)trAncE
5 Posts
He's often away for 3 days, 4 days, 5 days, or even weeks/months, and even when he does play, he doesn't play at full capacity. All the recent ASL winners trained like crazy, unlike Bisu who doesn't train. That's why he'll never win the ASL, or at least not if he doesn't train like soma did or soulkey did last ASL. | ||
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TMNT
3082 Posts
On November 18 2025 04:52 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Do i really need to explain to you whats means preparing for a group stage and preparing for a bracket with a bo5/bo7 format ? Even if you said yes i will not explain. thats on you. And if you think both are the same then we are cook. That said in a bo7 Mindgames from map to map are way stronger compared to a bo3 and can heavily affect result. Think Rush vs SOulkey with the mass 9pools and 14 CC. I bet you have never seen such thing again. Or Larva vs Mini final game. etc You have no method yourself. You're just trying to throw as much interferences as possible, however ridiculouse they are, into my method to discredit it, because my method points to the conclusion you don't like. Preparation may be different, but for the purpose of collecting data, all games are considered equal. Is there a game they can afford to lose lol? Also if we follow your kind of logic, then the importance of data will go like this: final > Ro4 > Ro8 > Ro16 > Ro24. Well, guess what final stats you don't like? I dont even know why waste energy into this if the freakin argument is that Protoss cant beat zerg in a Final for 20 years. All of sudden we picking everygame possible but with selective players and also selective periods. Selective players = top 3 of each race in that matchup. That's a solid criterion. What's the problem with that? Do you want to do top 4 5 6 7? I'm not against that either. But you have to explain why you choose the value. Keep in mind that (i) the further you expand, the closer you'll get to the global win rate of the match up, and (ii) outside the top 5, other Protoss players barely get into Ro8 anyway. Selective period = recent years. It's not like I picked an arbitrary time huh? Also originally it was a response to Soft_General's post. Once again, feel free to propose your time frame and explain why. For example Rain been onfire beating everyone but terran in the final. Same applies to Mini beating everyone but Terran in the Final. What the fuck? Rain only beat Ps in finals, never faced a Z in finals. Mini only beat Rush, lost to Z twice and T once in finals. You need a head check. And you make it sound great that Snow been losing to X X and X when he was also eliminated in group Stages by Ggaemo. If we compare type of Class player that doesnt make any freakin sense right ? So who do we blame. Format balance player . other ? Upsets happen in ASL. Players have ups and downs. Some players weren't good before but have been improving. Surprise? What about Soma exiting Ro24 by Ample then? Also, what's even your point here? You're so focused on throwing red herrings into the conversation you don't even realize you don't have a point or you're contradicting yourself. So you're suggesting because Snow lost to a low tier player like ggaemo, that means he's bad against Zerg. But on other posts when you want to show ZvP is balanced, you'd say Snow is godlike and is only losing narrowly to top Zergs. So wtf is your point then? If you actually think there is no difference then i cant help but agree that protoss is indeed extremely weak compared to zerg. Another detail you are not going to like. Is the first season Bisu actually competed full screen after playing every freaking ASL season with a tiny small screen and you already could see the results. Semifinal and 1 game away with an insane blunder to make it to the final. And trust me im happy Soma won the ASL but would have been amazing to see a protoss FInal to have better maps next season. This is clutching at straw territory. I hope for god's sake that he's improving because of the fullscreen lol. But it's not like Bisu has never had a run where he beat the likes Speed, TY, Queen, BTS and Larva to enter semifinals. And he both beat and lost to Soma in a series before lol. Anyway still interested to see your recopilate data from every Round of 8 onwards from every OSL/MSL/ASL/KSL to see the scores of zvp series. But if you dont wanna do it just stick to ASL. That will be fine with me too. SERIES no single maps. The 1-16 score above is that series result for you in the past 10 seasons of the top 3 vs top 3 There is no reason to discard the Bo3 results in Ro16. They are elimination games ffs. Even in the old ASL and OSL/MSL, they just had Bo3 in Ro8 lol. Note that I'm not including Ro16 (or the rare games in Ro24) to support my argument. It's just for the integrity of the method. As if P wins more in Ro8 onwards and lose more in Ro16 so that I manipulated the data that way to make Protoss look worse lol. Also you have to do top 3 vs top 3, or top 4 vs top 4, and so on... to be fair. If you're smart enough you would no why. If you don't I can explain. Funny that for someone accusing me of manipulating the data, you're trying to twist data sooooo hard in the hope that it would tilt in favor of the result you hope for. Pathetic. But as some kind of charity work for you: if we include Rain and Queen (only good for your side of argument as Queen took some beatdowns) to make it top 4 vs top 4, the series score for PvZ the last 10 seasons is: - 8-18 including the Bo3s in Ro16 (yes, Queen alone is responsible for 5 of the 8 series losses for Z, just like Snow for 8 of the 18 for P) - 5-10 from Ro8 only. - 7-13 if we extend to all 21 ASL seasons, Ro8 only - 9-14 if we count KSL too, Ro8 only Do the same math but extending to top 5 vs top 5, including Best and Effort in the equation, we get: - 12-20 in ASL from Ro8 only - 14-22 if we add KSL Looks like even if we manipulate the data your way, you still can't find the results you want. | ||
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ruhtraeel
Canada125 Posts
Snow can be amazing online because people just mindlessly do generic builds, and Snow can just out micro people But in a tournament setting, he's terrible at planning, which often times matters way more Like Mini won an ASL just by out planning everyone I feel like Snow is getting the same treatment as Rain did back then, when people were so hyped about his godly PvP and calling him like the most talented Protoss ever which overshadowed how mediocre his PvT has always been (Also because people seem to really, really agree with Artosis' takes on just about everything) | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1462 Posts
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