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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6813 Posts
Protoss vs Zerg has a 48.7% WR while Zerg vs Terran has a 44% WR so we need to nerf Hydras. And since we are also nerf Mutalisk. The last 3 ASLS semifinals there has been 2 protoss 1 terran 1 zerg. Is clear protoss is not doing well cuz it has to be 4 protoss to guarantee a Protoss winner. TMNT | ||
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Bonyth
Poland595 Posts
While you are at it, do the same for RO8, RO16, RO24. As for the balance whine, I believe if there is about 40% protoss players on the world, then we should have 40% of them being champions, RO4, RO8 and so on (given sample size is big enough). Unfortunately, 40% of them only exist at the bottom of ladder, even on S rank there is already only 30% of them, and then there are top tournaments. There were tables for this, but I'm definitely too lazy to search for them. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6813 Posts
Is also interesting that the WR of protoss has improved a ton since the Kespa era. That means the maps indeed got better after. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 13:39 Ze'ev wrote: lol wtf. You’re making a positive claim about balance — and making a positive claim means you have the burden of proof. Everyone else finds you ridiculous and is expressing skepticism, and you’re refusing to actually substantiate your claim beyond shallow reasoning, data-mining, or insulting people because you can’t back it up and you’re too insecure to back down. You sound like some kid who just takes his first science class and is so eager to apply some terms he's just learned to everything. Matchup balance can only be in either of the two states: balanced or imbalanced. It's not like I'm claiming a new build. It's like when a child is born it can only be a male or a female biologically (excluding the rare genetical cases). The doctor doesn't need to do a genetic test to claim it is a boy or girl, just physical featues are enough. In BW balance there is always a default assumption and it has to be "all non mirror matchups are imbalanced" however small the margin is. It's no bigger of a claim than saying me and you are different people. The 6 points I raised above just further solidify that assumption while also give us a hint of how big the margin is. So the burden of proof, if you want to declare the opposite case, lies on you. Btw why are you acting like I'm the first person in 25 years who make a statement about ZvP imbalance lol? And if you are so obssessed with high level "analysis", then what the fuck did you do here: + Show Spoiler [low level data mining] + On October 30 2025 06:49 Ze'ev wrote: its extremely interesting that: 1) protoss lose on almost every map in every matchup 2) terran win on almost every map in every matchup. it kind of reflects the larger patterns of: zerg has a weak matchup, terran does not. Protoss has a weak matchup and a slightly less weak matchup. When people complain about z>p its not that they're wrong -- rather, its the wrong target. The pvz balance is totally acceptable as long as the pvt balance more closely resembled the strong-weak matchup dichotomy that terran and zerg have. Or rather the myth of; terran has no weak match up and protoss has no strong match up. Itz not zvp thats the problem, its tesagi. edit: sorry that i fucked up the pattern. im always that guy lol. or here: + Show Spoiler [surface commentary on map balance, whe…] + On October 04 2025 22:59 Ze'ev wrote: I actually think roaring currents is zerg favoured tbh. on the continental side of the map: protoss cant really attack into zerg because its across a bridge, up a ramp, or into a choke. Those bases mine out quickly as well which favours zerg. It gives zerg a stable enough of an economy to contest for the islands. The thing about island/air play in broodwar is: zerg is weak because of oppurtunity cost, but actually has the strongest potential. Queens for parasite/ensnare, muta, devourer, scourge, plague, dark swarm, nydus canal, cracklings, lurkers and hydras...this is an amazingly powerful force. Obviously protoss has its own late game technical army (dweb/arbiter/carrier) to contest with buuuut: because the continental bases dry up relatively fast I'm not sure protoss can safely tech transition without giving the zerg initiative. Its basically: you cant punish the zerg on land, which gives them a lot of attacking potential either on your land bases or your islands and you cant be quite sure which way there going to go. If you over-invest in one aspect of defence, you get rolled elsewhere. Your initial air advantage is powerful but will dissipate once zerg is stabilized on four gas, and transitions to higher tech both take a while and expose you in the meantime. I think Bisu's solution was to lean on larva with harass and then hit a timing in order to forestall the zerg economic explosion which he couldn't handle in the late game. Larva showed pretty well why that gameplan isnt something you can really rely on. But what was the alternative? If he hadn't tried for a hanbang and started to transition sooner to late game air, Larva could have contested air that much faster and or started hitting his land bases. After Bisu's timing failed to keep Larva suppressed I feel like he was in a bit of a desperation situation and thats why he kept going for these attacks. He knew how hard a transition would be and gambled his best option was to avoid it. I honestly can understand the decision, giving zerg breathing room on an air map would be fucking terrifying. Ffs turns out you even implied that ZvP imba is true while having an issue with TvZ too lol. So you are just a small time shit stirrer whose sole purpose is personal attack. Once again, fuck off. | ||
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iopq
United States1058 Posts
That's all in the context of what maps we are playing. If the map designers made a lot more Butters and Citadels and Polypoids, we'd be talking about how PvZ is too strong for Protoss It's literally just luck that more maps are Zerg favored. There are randomly maps that are very close to 50% like Neo Sylphid and Pole Star and Apocalypse. I mean, you could choose the ASL map pool out of relatively balanced maps and add a 3 player map with high ground naturals or the 973 blocker ditch in front of it (Tempest 3 player remake or Kick Back 3 player remake). Then add a crazy map and call it a day. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6813 Posts
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 15 2025 22:58 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Important to mention Sylphid was ravaged with later iterations. I think sylphid 1.0 was the best version of it and one of the most fun maps to play to this date. But it was destroyed later on. nahhh, there was one single version with a bunch of neutral buildings. this was when the neutral-buildings-mafia was still much more powerful than today. they still have some influence over map making, just not as much as back then all other changes, from 1.0 to neo sylphid, were rather small and focused on fixing bugs below are all versions that we had, in random order. try to find your favourite one + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/gkB0mFV/5073.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/d/dc/Sylphide.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/6/6c/Neo_Sylphid.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/DH5hwBfq/5056.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/bgSvDC9D/5093.jpg) | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
With this in mind, Apocalypse was created to be kind of a remake of Sylphid, but the center layout was specifically designed to nerf this play style. At least that's what I read once in an interview by Latias, the maker of Apocalypse. | ||
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Comedy
469 Posts
Protoss is relatively 'easy to play', but it's harder to perform with at the very top level. That's why guys like bonyth and dewalt dominate the foreign scene with protoss even though with zerg/terran they wouldn't be nearly as succesful. But when it comes to the top korean level, Protoss, despite being easy to play, has to face a lot of bs builds and timings that top players can abuse to make it harder to win tournaments. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6813 Posts
On November 15 2025 23:43 Kraekkling wrote: nahhh, there was one single version with a bunch of neutral buildings. this was when the neutral-buildings-mafia was still much more powerful than today. they still have some influence over map making, just not as much as back then all other changes, from 1.0 to neo sylphid, were rather small and focused on fixing bugs below are all versions that we had, in random order. try to find your favourite one + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + You are forgetting mineral balanced was changed and made it extremely hard vs terran. Before those changes zerg could play with close expos vs terran. And they introduced countless spots for zealots to get 1 gap traded at basically every natural. Basically every zerg pro complained about sylphid changes and did ask to revert back but changes werent made. I remember pros also wanted that the expanions at the top bottom and mid right were changed so siege tank couldnt kill extractor. | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
On November 16 2025 00:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: You are forgetting mineral balanced was changed and made it extremely hard vs terran. Before those changes zerg could play with close expos vs terran. And they introduced countless spots for zealots to get 1 gap traded at basically every natural. Basically every zerg pro complained about sylphid changes and did ask to revert back but changes werent made. I remember pros also wanted that the expanions at the top bottom and mid right were changed so siege tank couldnt kill extractor. Yea that makes sense. Its usually hard to say whether something really needs fixed, because people will always complain if you take away something they had before, or give their opponents something new. I think in the past we were way worse at tracking stats... really makes you wonder when and how maps were updated. What's interesting (and good) though is, if the changes you mention were able to make or break the balance on the map, this would mean that we have some really good tools to tilt the balance to either side. Because stuff like that can be applied to almost any map. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6813 Posts
And listen i think an important Rule for maps is. Dont break mechanics and dont make it hard to play. Dont make maps that the players is fighting the map instead of his opponent. And then go from there. Thats why i think Roaring Currents has been very balanced and progamers never quit playing it even after ASL is done like it happened with weird maps before that the quit using it right after ASL. The basics of Roaring Currents allow players to play it like a normal map at first then as they game progress and players are forced to fight for island you get different challenges. I think 76 made a huge mistake using that tiny ramp. I think the map had potential already having normal ramps. But we will never know. | ||
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
Dont break mechanics and dont make it hard to play. Dont make maps that the players is fighting the map instead of his opponent. And then go from there. this 10000% the main problem with experimental quirky crazy maps is that they're just shitty to play on. I think this is something a lot of people do not understand who keep asking this type of maps. Its also usually those people who don't even play the game that much... And another reason why we used to have so many experimental quirky crazy maps, was that map makers were afraid of being cliché. Its almost similar to some modern architecture, or parts of modern art, when artists start making shit for the sake of being different and noone has done this before. So we had the equivalents of banana-taped-to-a-wall of broodwar maps again and again | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
On November 15 2025 23:56 Kraekkling wrote: Sylphid was a very pretty and cool map, although it was thought of as a T>Z map by koreans. One of the reasons being that in late TvZ, Terran was able to camp the center of the map with lots of Tanks and inhibit Zerg movement too much. With this in mind, Apocalypse was created to be kind of a remake of Sylphid, but the center layout was specifically designed to nerf this play style. At least that's what I read once in an interview by Latias, the maker of Apocalypse. Apocalypse ended up being one of the best maps ever made. Radeon and Apocalypse are goated. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 22:25 TMNT wrote: The default position in any claim is neutral uncertainty; you want to make a claim about balance but you dont back it up because your bad at starcraft and couldnt give any analysis that wouldnt be laughed at. We are laughing at you anyway. You can stamp your feet like a child and tell me to fuck off all you want; all you are highlighting is that you are an immature, angry, bitter, insecure little man who cant defend the claims he makes. Shifting burden of proof because your a dumbass is the oldest trick on the book on the internet: you made a claim about balance, substantiate it with analysis of decision trees, timings, scout patterns, show how in any given game the balance is skewed by examining it at a high level. You cant because you arent high level. Simple as that. Your pathetic insecurity and rage is the only thing actually happening in this thread. You confuse cherry picking data and surface level commentary for actual analysis; likely because you are stupid, certainly because your incompetent at the game and lack the actual concepts to understand it. You sound like some kid who just takes his first science class and is so eager to apply some terms he's just learned to everything. Matchup balance can only be in either of the two states: balanced or imbalanced. It's not like I'm claiming a new build. It's like when a child is born it can only be a male or a female biologically (excluding the rare genetical cases). The doctor doesn't need to do a genetic test to claim it is a boy or girl, just physical featues are enough. In BW balance there is always a default assumption and it has to be "all non mirror matchups are imbalanced" however small the margin is. It's no bigger of a claim than saying me and you are different people. The 6 points I raised above just further solidify that assumption while also give us a hint of how big the margin is. So the burden of proof, if you want to declare the opposite case, lies on you. Btw why are you acting like I'm the first person in 25 years who make a statement about ZvP imbalance lol? And if you are so obssessed with high level "analysis", then what the fuck did you do here: + Show Spoiler [low level data mining] + On October 30 2025 06:49 Ze'ev wrote: its extremely interesting that: 1) protoss lose on almost every map in every matchup 2) terran win on almost every map in every matchup. it kind of reflects the larger patterns of: zerg has a weak matchup, terran does not. Protoss has a weak matchup and a slightly less weak matchup. When people complain about z>p its not that they're wrong -- rather, its the wrong target. The pvz balance is totally acceptable as long as the pvt balance more closely resembled the strong-weak matchup dichotomy that terran and zerg have. Or rather the myth of; terran has no weak match up and protoss has no strong match up. Itz not zvp thats the problem, its tesagi. edit: sorry that i fucked up the pattern. im always that guy lol. or here: + Show Spoiler [surface commentary on map balance, whe…] + On October 04 2025 22:59 Ze'ev wrote: I actually think roaring currents is zerg favoured tbh. on the continental side of the map: protoss cant really attack into zerg because its across a bridge, up a ramp, or into a choke. Those bases mine out quickly as well which favours zerg. It gives zerg a stable enough of an economy to contest for the islands. The thing about island/air play in broodwar is: zerg is weak because of oppurtunity cost, but actually has the strongest potential. Queens for parasite/ensnare, muta, devourer, scourge, plague, dark swarm, nydus canal, cracklings, lurkers and hydras...this is an amazingly powerful force. Obviously protoss has its own late game technical army (dweb/arbiter/carrier) to contest with buuuut: because the continental bases dry up relatively fast I'm not sure protoss can safely tech transition without giving the zerg initiative. Its basically: you cant punish the zerg on land, which gives them a lot of attacking potential either on your land bases or your islands and you cant be quite sure which way there going to go. If you over-invest in one aspect of defence, you get rolled elsewhere. Your initial air advantage is powerful but will dissipate once zerg is stabilized on four gas, and transitions to higher tech both take a while and expose you in the meantime. I think Bisu's solution was to lean on larva with harass and then hit a timing in order to forestall the zerg economic explosion which he couldn't handle in the late game. Larva showed pretty well why that gameplan isnt something you can really rely on. But what was the alternative? If he hadn't tried for a hanbang and started to transition sooner to late game air, Larva could have contested air that much faster and or started hitting his land bases. After Bisu's timing failed to keep Larva suppressed I feel like he was in a bit of a desperation situation and thats why he kept going for these attacks. He knew how hard a transition would be and gambled his best option was to avoid it. I honestly can understand the decision, giving zerg breathing room on an air map would be fucking terrifying. Ffs turns out you even implied that ZvP imba is true while having an issue with TvZ too lol. So you are just a small time shit stirrer whose sole purpose is personal attack. Once again, fuck off. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6813 Posts
I dont like talking negative on people is not my nature. So i also appreciate how TMNT keeps the daily proleagues thread update. For someone that cant watch every proleague is cool to go there and see if there is something worth checking. But yeah you are dogshit at SC mate. Nothing wrong with that. But i truly wish u played the game so you dont speak all this BS for no reason. | ||
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shakigami
220 Posts
On November 10 2025 07:48 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I cant believe this Terran prick dare to assume how protoss should play. If anything he has won every championship by playing the most stronger faction in Starcraft. On top of that he is way older than Snow so he should set as example and no blaming optimizations from The most strongest protoss this Earth has seen in 20 years. The PvT God. The protoss Bonjwa that never won A ship Cuz zerg and Terran is so imbalanced that is literally impossible for him to win one. On top of that FlaSh had to pick Random and beat him Protoss vs Protoss cuz he knew that playing like a real warrior Protoss vs Protoss he had 0 chance. Hey FlaSH you better go back and make some coins ahh ?? And yeah Him losing vs Rain in ASL Is totally unfair and the final should be replayed now to see who is the real Champion. Snow actually forgot his chocolate bar that day so yeah.. PD: him losing on Blitz Y vs Soulkey a map with 33% win rate for zerg doesnt prove nothing. Snow played fair and square and decided to no use his third gaz the whole game to make a fair game vs Soulkey. Protoss are just like that. Pure souls. Signed: TMNT "Lol, who exactly do you think you are to talk about Flash like that? Eon, you better go archiving something first before demanding the GOAT to do nonsense shit. Everyone gets to choose their race, and once you do, you stick with it and prove yourself. Even Snow admitted it himself, he never blamed imbalance. Funny how you’re the only one doing that. | ||
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Just_a_Moth
Canada1964 Posts
On November 16 2025 02:26 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I dont like talking negative on people is not my nature. On November 16 2025 02:26 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: you are dogshit at SC mate. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
Like when I told how you lot can't read or constantly get facts wrong, I showed proofs and pointed out where you were wrong. Not once have you proved me wrong at anything. I asked questions, you didn't answer. You accused me of something, I replied point by point, you ignored. Then you kept throwing insults. Ze'ev literally hasn't said a word about BW since joining this conversation. The entire content of his posts is bigotry. I quoted his posts showing him doing the exact same thing he's accusing me of. What's his response? Of course he ignored it. This is how an argument between civilized people goes: A: presents point A, backs it up with evidences B: disagrees with point A, explains why point A is invalid, presents counterpoints A: responds to the counterpoints This is how an argument goes for these illiterates: Me: present point A Them: that's wrong, you're dogshit at this Me: where are your arguments? how do you prove A is wrong? and can you explain this? Them: you're dogshit at this Me: literally show quotes that prove them wrong Them: act like they dont' see it What a fucking waste of time trying to be reasonable to this lot. | ||
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