EPTRoaring currents Protoss vs zerg
PZ: 44 wins, 48 losses (47.8%)
Or we also ignoring that on purpose Donatello be honest.
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle - Page 6
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6813 Posts
Roaring currents Protoss vs zerg PZ: 44 wins, 48 losses (47.8%) Or we also ignoring that on purpose Donatello be honest. | ||
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Darkwhite
Norway352 Posts
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Kraekkling
624 Posts
It should not be used to refer to builds which just need to do damage, even if falling behind when it fails. After the ling "all in" which Snow defended, he was very ahead. Whether it was 70-30 or 80-20 or whatever, hard to say. But even in a 80-20 situation, the player who is behind wins 2 out of 10 times. It was one of those games. It's literally 26 zerglings at ~28 supply (depending on how you count the dead zerglings). If that's not an all-in then the Zerg margin of error is way too generous. Thats, like, your opinion, man. The koreans don't call every build where Zerg makes units "all-in". If you really insist on crunching numbers, go ahead and calculate how much mining time Zerg is losing due to less drones, and how much Protoss invests into defense. OR you could just watch the game and see how the supply numbers evolve in the few minutes after the failed "all-in" edit: To explain a bit further on this specific timing - we see Soma doing this ling attack at 27 supply. This is btw the typical timing for Protoss to move out with 5 Zealots in a regular game, after a 9gate opening. I know this, because I died often enough to this stuff, specifically when not premaking a fucking overlord and being stuck at 27/27 once you see the Zealots coming. Its mostly up to the Protoss how far he wants to go there. In a normal game, they could either have a safer cannon or a faster Starport. If they went for the cannon, they are free to move out with 5 Zealots and Zerg must have lings ready. If they commit, you need 16-20 lings to defend. So while it might seem like Zerg having 26 lings at 27 supply is outlandish and "all-in", in reality it's not far off from what Zerg is forced to have anyways. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6813 Posts
Thats why i try TMNT to lock in into the games and focus on Snow mistakes but he clearly doesnt have any interest in that. For him Snow is playing as good as a protoss can play so who cares lol. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 14 2025 21:17 TMNT wrote: then we have the best foreign player here who also happens to play Protoss and advocates for ZvP imba. You saying? You mean Bonyth? I though he just quotes Stork in non serious way. If he advocates ZvP imba maybe he should talk his reasons and map/balance solutions himself It's funny though as he kills all foreign zergs with ease. You saying? | ||
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Darkwhite
Norway352 Posts
On November 15 2025 00:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: It was 22 zerglings. Do you need to take in consideration that Soma made 12 hatchery. So you can say Soma could be extra greedy with lings. That said. Soma was aiming to get way and more from that attack for sure. It was not a sucessful ling time from Soma side. So he was behind after this attack. With that said Snow still tried his best to make blunders. For example he gave away later on all his zealots to Soma lings and thats why the hydra timing hit it was over for him so quick. Thats why i try TMNT to lock in into the games and focus on Snow mistakes but he clearly doesnt have any interest in that. For him Snow is playing as good as a protoss can play so who cares lol. 4 extra build back at home during/after the attack. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
1) ignored every request to state his rank 2) ignored every stat that doesnt favour his conclusions and 3) refused to actually analyze the mistakes in a game in-depth so we can understand his indepth criticisms as well as his knowledge basis Almost likes he biased and doesn't know what the fuck hes talking about? hmmm | ||
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sas.Sziky
Hungary333 Posts
On November 15 2025 00:59 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: It was 22 zerglings. Do you need to take in consideration that Soma made 12 hatchery. So you can say Soma could be extra greedy with lings. That said. Soma was aiming to get way and more from that attack for sure. It was not a sucessful ling time from Soma side. So he was behind after this attack. With that said Snow still tried his best to make blunders. For example he gave away later on all his zealots to Soma lings and thats why the hydra timing hit it was over for him so quick. Thats why i try TMNT to lock in into the games and focus on Snow mistakes but he clearly doesnt have any interest in that. For him Snow is playing as good as a protoss can play so who cares lol. he made many mistakes but the main was the pylon as i said before. they don't even recognize that. for me they proved what i thought about them  | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6813 Posts
zerg has a 44% WR vs Terran. Do you ever see zerg players complaining or screaming imba etc ? And still zerg is finding ways to win ASL. If this mf TMNT saw protoss with a 44% WR he will be asking blizzard to make a balance patch for sure. and 44% with the most insane roster of zerg players this earth knows btw. SK SOMA QUEEN JAEDONG HERO. And protoss is basically Snow Bisu Mini lol. And somehow the WR protoss vs zerg is closer to 50. Cuz Rain is retired or semi retired. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/pMAXpzF.png) If you actually compare talent pool vs talent pool i Swear to god Protoss is doing fantastic. 44% WR zerg vs terran gentleman. And here we are listening to this Surtur Brood player telling us all that bs and manipualting data as he wishes. Holyshit i went to eloboard to check the Roaring currets stats and i was expecting something crazy for protoss. like 20% WR cuz of the way he talks. then the score is so close that i couldnt believe my eyes. | ||
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SCRVN
135 Posts
A truth thing, even no one supports it, it's still true. An incorrect thing, even 100000000000 people support it, it's still wrong. Protoss is created for newbies, not for professional players or players really love the game. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 01:01 Soft_General_5023 wrote: You mean Bonyth? I though he just quotes Stork in non serious way. If he advocates ZvP imba maybe he should talk his reasons and map/balance solutions himself It's funny though as he kills all foreign zergs with ease. You saying? No he didn't. He's said several times on this forum that Protoss is the weakest race at the top level. Maybe you should ask him why he didn't elaborate more (hint: he doesn't like to engage much in forum bickerings like.... well, me) Your sense of logic is absolutely devoid. That he kills foreign Zs has no say in the matter. It's just a matter of who's better. Or maybe if you prefer that Bonyth is not more talented than say Sziky, then maybe at foreign level Protoss is strongest. I dont know. Ask them. None of them are at ASL level btw. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 01:05 Ze'ev wrote: It is telling that TMNT has 1) ignored every request to state his rank 2) ignored every stat that doesnt favour his conclusions and 3) refused to actually analyze the mistakes in a game in-depth so we can understand his indepth criticisms as well as his knowledge basis Almost likes he biased and doesn't know what the fuck hes talking about? hmmm Totally bullshit. Point 1 has no relevance. Point 2 and 3 are completely wrong. I have acknowledged on multiple occasions the mistakes from the Protoss side and the games Zerg won fair and square, and have tried to explain every stats thrown at me. There aren't many stats that don't favor my conclusion anyway lol. Citation please. What's even funnier is all the people arguing with me play Zerg and can you believe the amount of points I made that they ignored ? But yes I'm the biased one lolololol. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 02:06 TMNT wrote: "how good I am has nothing to do with how well I understand something" is obviously false, and even contradictory to your use of stork as a citation. On the one hand: authority means nothing, on the other hand, look at this authority which agrees with me!Totally bullshit. Point 1 has no relevance. Point 2 and 3 are completely wrong. I have acknowledged on multiple occasions the mistakes from the Protoss side and the games Zerg won fair and square, and have tried to explain every stats thrown at me. There aren't many stats that don't favor my conclusion anyway lol. Citation please. What's even funnier is all the people arguing with me play Zerg and can you believe the amount of points I made that they ignored ? But yes I'm the biased one lolololol. Eonzerg already gave you stats that contradicted yorur conclusions and has been talking about that throughout this thread, your literally just ignoring it. @analysis. no. i want real fucking "i know what im talking about" analysis of these games. give a beat for beat of the builds, how and what was misread, specificity. Show you are something more than a bad player with a chip on his shoulder: your claiming to have accurate conclusions about high level gameplay, I expect high level analysis not surface level concessions or claims. You cant do that because you cant play broodwar worth shit. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 00:27 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Can you explain Why do you say Roaring Currents is a zerg win map when the actual scores are these. Roaring currents Protoss vs zerg PZ: 44 wins, 48 losses (47.8%) Or we also ignoring that on purpose Donatello be honest. Because the map favors Zerg in late game but not every game they played come to late. I've never said it's a free win for Zerg on this map. They have to work quite a lot to reach to that stage, in the same way with Death Valley, that the win rate doesn't really reflect the advantage of Zerg here. All the games P won on this map outside of ASL are games in which Z opt for aggression early on but fail, or P secure an advantage early and snowball from there. If Z turtle and grow on 4 bases, like they did in ASL, they have a massive advantage in late game. The downside is the game would last 30 mins and demands a lot of effort. But in online play they mix in the strategy and sometimes the early agression works and sometimes it doesn't, like in a normal map, so the win rate looks more normally. As a Zerg player there's no way you can't admit that free 4 gas with one chokepoint to hold big push and long rush distance (so you're safer from zealot timing) isn't what you want as Zerg lol. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1125 Posts
we can extract data from that function and create a data set of 5 select zergs, terrans, and protoss to determine the winrates amongst player of similar skill tiers. If we can then also extract map data per player we can extract more data to guide our arguments. Also, which maps were bad for zerg but great for Protoss? I remember Troy as being a zerg nightmare. What other maps wete zerg nightmares? | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 02:37 Ze'ev wrote: "how good I am has nothing to do with how well I understand something" is obviously false, and even contradictory to your use of stork as a citation. On the one hand: authority means nothing, on the other hand, look at this authority which agrees with me! Eonzerg already gave you stats that contradicted yorur conclusions and has been talking about that throughout this thread, your literally just ignoring it. @analysis. no. i want real fucking "i know what im talking about" analysis of these games. give a beat for beat of the builds, how and what was misread, specificity. Show you are something more than a bad player with a chip on his shoulder: your claiming to have accurate conclusions about high level gameplay, I expect high level analysis not surface level concessions or claims. You cant do that because you cant play broodwar worth shit. I've never used Stork as a citation lol. Learn to fucking read. Stork's claims have only ever been used as a counter response when someone used the authority fallacy, like when they cite a Zerg player saying something . Eon gave one stat on Roaring Currents lol, to which I replied above. There's nothing else that suggests P=Z. Let's say even if he's right on that and I'm wrong, then it's ONE map. But wait a minute, it's you yourself who also says that this map is Zerg favored. So what else do you have? Again. What are the stats that contradict my conclusion? A fucking quote please? Evidences where? Don't just say words and assume they are true, like your entire last paragraph here. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 02:44 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: isnt there a head to head data section in eloboard? we can extract data from that function and create a data set of 5 select zergs, terrans, and protoss to determine the winrates amongst player of similar skill tiers. If we can then also extract map data per player we can extract more data to guide our arguments. Also, which maps were bad for zerg but great for Protoss? I remember Troy as being a zerg nightmare. What other maps wete zerg nightmares? Won't work very well because of several factors. Rain hasn't played enough. If you count the 5th Protoss as Shuttle or Stork then it skews the data. Same for the 4th or 5th player for Terran, hard to decide between Sharp/JYJ/whatever. Flash was absent for long time, as was Soma, Larva, Effort. Some are farming in K League which skews the data a bit too. Then there's this whole thing of players in and out of form, taking breaks, personal matters, etc. | ||
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Ze'ev
151 Posts
On November 15 2025 02:46 TMNT wrote: I've never used Stork as a citation lol. Learn to fucking read. Stork's claims have only ever been used as a counter response when someone used the authority fallacy, like when they cite a Zerg player saying something . Eon gave one stat on Roaring Currents lol, to which I replied above. There's nothing else that suggests P=Z. Let's say even if he's right on that and I'm wrong, then it's ONE map. But wait a minute, it's you yourself who also says that this map is Zerg favored. So what else do you have? Again. What are the stats that contradict my conclusion? A fucking quote please? Evidences where? Don't just say words and assume they are true, like your entire last paragraph here. “we have the best foreign player here who also happens to play Protoss and advocates for ZvP imba. You saying? Using top players as an authority appeal^ “The players never blame their losses on imbalance. It makes a bad image of them.” ^ implicitly using players as an authority appeal (there statements would have authority but for social management reasons they arent saying anything) "Flash even acknowledged TvZ in the past was imba (unloseable for Terrans on those maps – his literal word" authority appeal ^ Eon was bringing up your inconsistent selection of data re ignoring ASL and just gave you a large dump of data showing zvp is only off by 2% Wheres your analysis little man? Your claiming to have the ability to understand the game at a high level; wheres the analysis? All you give is insults (immature, sad) and surface level commentary (a bad player confuses commentary for analysis. do you even know what analysis looks like? no indication you do). You want people to take you seriously give: decision trees, specific timings, explanations of scout patterns in the game, etc. You cant do that because your just a whiny bad player. | ||
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Soft_General_5023
110 Posts
On November 15 2025 01:51 TMNT wrote: I dont know I agree. | ||
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TMNT
3118 Posts
On November 15 2025 02:59 Ze'ev wrote: “we have the best foreign player here who also happens to play Protoss and advocates for ZvP imba. You saying? Using top players as an authority appeal^ What the actual fuck? You literally deleted the first part of the sentence that says "if you're going for the appeal to authority route (aka "your argument is only as valid as your rank on the ladder")" - I literally used that to the other poster that if he uses authority appeal (because he cited A rank Artosis), he won't win the argument. Like I said, learn to read. “The players never blame their losses on imbalance. It makes a bad image of them.” ^ implicitly using players as an authority appeal (there statements would have authority but for social management reasons they arent saying anything) This has nothing to do with authority appeal. And this is also a response to an authority appeal by the other poster. "Flash even acknowledged TvZ in the past was imba (unloseable for Terrans on those maps – his literal word" authority appeal ^ This is just another fucking response to Sziky appealing to authority by citing a video in which Flash says "skills matter". I pointed out that in the same video Flash also says "TvZ is imba". Eon was bringing up your inconsistent selection of data re ignoring ASL and just gave you a large dump of data showing zvp is only off by 2% I didn't ignore ASL data you idiot. The eloboard data includes recent ASL data in itself. The stats Eon screenshot'd above are not only not contradictory to my point, but they are exactly the ones I have always talked about. That, plus the Kespa win rates. Note that I'm also an advocate of Tesagi and T > Z, for which our guy Eon here was very happy when I posted these horrible win rates for Z in ZvT. I guess when it's ZvT I'm so knowledgable but when it comes to ZvP I'm only talking shite then, but sure I'm the biased one lol. Also it's clearly at this point you haven't followed this matter sufficiently enough to join the conversation. Wheres your analysis little man? Your claiming to have the ability to understand the game at a high level; wheres the analysis? All you give is insults (immature, sad) and surface level commentary (a bad player confuses commentary for analysis. do you even know what analysis looks like? no indication you do). Go ahead and count the insults and see who starts first and who uses more? Go. With the amount of text I've put in this thread if they are all insults I'd have been banned to eternity lol. You want people to take you seriously give: decision trees, specific timings, explanations of scout patterns in the game, etc. You cant do that because your just a whiny bad player. No one has ever done that in this thread . And you yourself haven't done shit so climb off your high horse. Where are your decision trees lmao? The most detailed analyses are just from me and Kraekling. Eon Zerg himself gave fuckall. I asked him like 3 times to explain Snow's decision on that KCM game he couldn't. | ||
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