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On November 20 2025 13:55 Soft_General_5023 wrote:Time to end the debate when ChatGPT steps in, LoL Yes this thread deteriorated from the debate of the game balance to the debate of a person balance. And no one is any wiser I think. I am sorry and out. Maybe more constructive posts can be made in this thread asking map makers, as the game can be only balanced by maps now.
ChatGPT commands thee to return to productivity!
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Haven't posted in forever in part because TMNT singlehandedly makes TL forums 50% worse. Won't post again any time soon for this same reason.
Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem.
In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things.
Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct  ).
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On November 20 2025 21:59 darktreb wrote:Haven't posted in forever in part because TMNT singlehandedly makes TL forums 50% worse. Won't post again any time soon for this same reason. Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem. In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things. Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct ).
four steps:
be polite
stick to the message, ignore noise
be open minded and contemplate alternatives to your own argument. try to see it from another perspective.
don't argue in absolutes and certainties. knowledge and perspectives and data interpretation are subjective. they lead us closer to a potential truth, but we can rarely be certain it is the objective truth.
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On November 20 2025 21:59 darktreb wrote:Haven't posted in forever in part because TMNT singlehandedly makes TL forums 50% worse. Won't post again any time soon for this same reason. Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem. In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things. Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct ).
If I'm not mistaken, you seem to imply that "the way I argue" is only about style but not substance? As if my argumentative posts don't contain logical reasoning and facts (even visual aids lol)?
And how is your statement in the last paragraph (which is an ad hominem btw) accurate when you've provided fuck all argument to support it? Basically you've spouted a lot of shite without showing any evidences to prove it in your entire post, while committingat least 2 logical fallacies, yet your statements are "accurate" by default and everyone should focus on that huh?
I was about to write some insulting comments using the same logic you've used here to say about me, but then I thought this dude is probably baiting me to get a ban. So nah ah. But I'm sure you know what I'd say.
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I think Flash hinted at something about optimization issue and overreliance on reaver micro, but i cannot be sure. I will take him seriously when he comes back competing and wins ASL as Protoss to show them all how optimized play makes Protoss a great race again.
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On November 26 2025 04:58 BulgarianToss wrote:
I think Flash hinted at something about optimization issue and overreliance on reaver micro, but i cannot be sure. I will take him seriously when he comes back competing and wins ASL as Protoss to show them all how optimized play makes Protoss a great race again.
Would love to see this but Terran also needs its heroes these days.
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As if Flash would have performed any better as protoss. He was wise to choose race with strongest consistent perfomance and no bad matchups, otherwise he would have never become bonjwa as protoss... PvZ is the most violatile matchup along with ZvZ.
On November 20 2025 02:47 Soft_General_5023 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2025 02:36 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
TMNT's problem in his methodology he does not stick to purely objectively and neutrally responding only to the argument being made. Snow explicitly said that there is no ZvP imbalance and he lost due to playing badly.
Korean pros almost never blame balance for defeats. It is considered a bad tone.
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On November 20 2025 21:59 darktreb wrote:Haven't posted in forever in part because TMNT singlehandedly makes TL forums 50% worse. Won't post again any time soon for this same reason. Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem. In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things. Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct ).
I guess you cannot blame someone for not coming to the point already when they have previously pointed out they have too much free time on their hands. Some people choose to make it hard on themselves and there is nothing you can do about it other than witnessing endless walls of texts that go absolutely nowhere.
On November 26 2025 04:58 BulgarianToss wrote:
I think Flash hinted at something about optimization issue and overreliance on reaver micro, but i cannot be sure. I will take him seriously when he comes back competing and wins ASL as Protoss to show them all how optimized play makes Protoss a great race again.
Flash means Snow cannot macro and it is true. There are much better macro protoss players like Best who max out at 12 minutes or something. However Snow's weakness is not that he microes hard, it is that it becomes predictable which is the primary reason ASL runner ups and champions get toppled and enter a slump because everyone can copy the winning strategy afterwards.
What is great about Flash is he is a bit like Rain, unpredictable.
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On December 15 2025 21:21 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2025 21:59 darktreb wrote:Haven't posted in forever in part because TMNT singlehandedly makes TL forums 50% worse. Won't post again any time soon for this same reason. Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem. In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things. Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct ). I guess you cannot blame someone for not coming to the point already when they have previously pointed out they have too much free time on their hands. Some people choose to make it hard on themselves and there is nothing you can do about it other than witnessing endless walls of texts that go absolutely nowhere. Show nested quote +On November 26 2025 04:58 BulgarianToss wrote:
I think Flash hinted at something about optimization issue and overreliance on reaver micro, but i cannot be sure. I will take him seriously when he comes back competing and wins ASL as Protoss to show them all how optimized play makes Protoss a great race again. Flash means Snow cannot macro and it is true. There are much better macro protoss players like Best who max out at 12 minutes or something. However Snow's weakness is not that he microes hard, it is that it becomes predictable which is the primary reason ASL runner ups and champions get toppled and enter a slump because everyone can copy the winning strategy afterwards. What is great about Flash is he is a bit like Rain, unpredictable.
SnOw is not bad at macro at all, but he consciously decides to prioritize micro over macro because he excells specifically at micro. His micro is better than anyone else's, and focusing on micro tends to benefit him. But his focus on micro does come at the cost of losing out on macro. due to the finite input over time nature of broodwar all playstyles have pros and cons.
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On December 16 2025 00:57 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2025 21:21 mtcn77 wrote:On November 20 2025 21:59 darktreb wrote:Haven't posted in forever in part because TMNT singlehandedly makes TL forums 50% worse. Won't post again any time soon for this same reason. Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem. In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things. Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct ). I guess you cannot blame someone for not coming to the point already when they have previously pointed out they have too much free time on their hands. Some people choose to make it hard on themselves and there is nothing you can do about it other than witnessing endless walls of texts that go absolutely nowhere. On November 26 2025 04:58 BulgarianToss wrote:
I think Flash hinted at something about optimization issue and overreliance on reaver micro, but i cannot be sure. I will take him seriously when he comes back competing and wins ASL as Protoss to show them all how optimized play makes Protoss a great race again. Flash means Snow cannot macro and it is true. There are much better macro protoss players like Best who max out at 12 minutes or something. However Snow's weakness is not that he microes hard, it is that it becomes predictable which is the primary reason ASL runner ups and champions get toppled and enter a slump because everyone can copy the winning strategy afterwards. What is great about Flash is he is a bit like Rain, unpredictable. SnOw is not bad at macro at all, but he consciously decides to prioritize micro over macro because he excells specifically at micro. His micro is better than anyone else's, and focusing on micro tends to benefit him. But his focus on micro does come at the cost of losing out on macro. due to the finite input over time nature of broodwar all playstyles have pros and cons.
That is why I brought Flash into the discussion. He can play random. He is the 4th race. No one can replicate it in a single race. You are just not random enough to warrant a bog standard blind opener like Flash does. In the end information asymmetry is what wins Starcraft games. Everybody can play micro, or macro. Random; now that is totally out of the blue.
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United Kingdom1706 Posts
It would be interesting to me if FlaSh did just pick a different race! Actually full on switched. Not that I actually give a fuck about this endless balance bullshit, it would just be fun to see the greatest ever player just do something different, again.
Watching this does make me think how great it must be within the scene to have very high level coaching and knowledge in such abundance now. The idea of having Flash's thoughts on how another top-level pro could play better and win in the biggest stage in BW is just a great resource.
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On December 16 2025 00:57 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:but he consciously decides to prioritize micro over macro
ding ding ding
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On December 18 2025 13:56 TornadoSteve wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2025 00:57 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:but he consciously decides to prioritize micro over macro
ding ding ding
Ding dong ding!
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On December 18 2025 00:23 ImbaTosS wrote:
It would be interesting to me if FlaSh did just pick a different race! Actually full on switched. Not that I actually give a fuck about this endless balance bullshit, it would just be fun to see the greatest ever player just do something different, again.
Watching this does make me think how great it must be within the scene to have very high level coaching and knowledge in such abundance now. The idea of having Flash's thoughts on how another top-level pro could play better and win in the biggest stage in BW is just a great resource.
I agree. Whilst his random run was impressive I'd like to see how he well he can play protoss and hopefuly lead to some meta change. If I'm not wrong he demonstrated mass shuttle plays which were not the meta back then.
Playing protoss is harder than playing random IMO...
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On December 19 2025 06:08 HaFnium wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2025 00:23 ImbaTosS wrote:
It would be interesting to me if FlaSh did just pick a different race! Actually full on switched. Not that I actually give a fuck about this endless balance bullshit, it would just be fun to see the greatest ever player just do something different, again.
Watching this does make me think how great it must be within the scene to have very high level coaching and knowledge in such abundance now. The idea of having Flash's thoughts on how another top-level pro could play better and win in the biggest stage in BW is just a great resource. I agree. Whilst his random run was impressive I'd like to see how he well he can play protoss and hopefuly lead to some meta change. If I'm not wrong he demonstrated mass shuttle plays which were not the meta back then. Playing protoss is harder than playing random IMO...
Mass Shuttle was at least a year old at that point IIRC but someone more versed, please feel free to correct.
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Mini was certainly using that for a while by that time, don't remember about others.
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What FlaSh really introduced was mass shuttles with HT harassing. While HT harassing was a thing even from Kespa days. He made it part of the build contrary to the old days where protoss just happened to be ahead and will use shuttles to do that move.
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United Kingdom1706 Posts
On December 19 2025 06:08 HaFnium wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2025 00:23 ImbaTosS wrote:
It would be interesting to me if FlaSh did just pick a different race! Actually full on switched. Not that I actually give a fuck about this endless balance bullshit, it would just be fun to see the greatest ever player just do something different, again.
Watching this does make me think how great it must be within the scene to have very high level coaching and knowledge in such abundance now. The idea of having Flash's thoughts on how another top-level pro could play better and win in the biggest stage in BW is just a great resource. I agree. Whilst his random run was impressive I'd like to see how he well he can play protoss and hopefuly lead to some meta change. If I'm not wrong he demonstrated mass shuttle plays which were not the meta back then. Playing protoss is harder than playing random IMO...
Random definitely does throw a very different curveball into the mix for your opponent, so I can see that playing random and getting protoss is a different ballgame than picking protoss. Harder or not thought, I'm not sure. Perhaps, since Korean pros seem to generally be pretty decent at all their offraces anyhow.
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On December 16 2025 01:51 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2025 00:57 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On December 15 2025 21:21 mtcn77 wrote:On November 20 2025 21:59 darktreb wrote:Haven't posted in forever in part because TMNT singlehandedly makes TL forums 50% worse. Won't post again any time soon for this same reason. Everyone knows a person like this who thinks the way they argue is what makes an argument valid. Who thinks stuff like being good at debate is a concept that matters beyond places like high school. This is a far more pernicious form of toxicity than stuff debate nerds care about, like ad hominem. In the real world what actually matters far more is whether you are more likely to be accurate, not the particular tactical approach to saying things. Of course this a Starcraft forum not the real world so do what you do. If TMNT was effective at anything in the real world he wouldn't be here all the time singlehandedly ruining these forums (TMNT will call this accurate statement a bad debate tactic instead of focusing on whether it is simply correct ). I guess you cannot blame someone for not coming to the point already when they have previously pointed out they have too much free time on their hands. Some people choose to make it hard on themselves and there is nothing you can do about it other than witnessing endless walls of texts that go absolutely nowhere. On November 26 2025 04:58 BulgarianToss wrote:
I think Flash hinted at something about optimization issue and overreliance on reaver micro, but i cannot be sure. I will take him seriously when he comes back competing and wins ASL as Protoss to show them all how optimized play makes Protoss a great race again. Flash means Snow cannot macro and it is true. There are much better macro protoss players like Best who max out at 12 minutes or something. However Snow's weakness is not that he microes hard, it is that it becomes predictable which is the primary reason ASL runner ups and champions get toppled and enter a slump because everyone can copy the winning strategy afterwards. What is great about Flash is he is a bit like Rain, unpredictable. SnOw is not bad at macro at all, but he consciously decides to prioritize micro over macro because he excells specifically at micro. His micro is better than anyone else's, and focusing on micro tends to benefit him. But his focus on micro does come at the cost of losing out on macro. due to the finite input over time nature of broodwar all playstyles have pros and cons. That is why I brought Flash into the discussion. He can play random. He is the 4th race. No one can replicate it in a single race. You are just not random enough to warrant a bog standard blind opener like Flash does. In the end information asymmetry is what wins Starcraft games. Everybody can play micro, or macro. Random; now that is totally out of the blue.
While effective random play is hard indeed, it also has huge advantage of throwing off opponent`s plans.
Besides, we did not see much of Flash as random player, how consistent and strong his perfomance would have been? No one knows, a single run is not enough.
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EPT
