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Flash's probably right in a general sense, considering even Snow criticized himself for his performance in the finals. But some of the examples he gave in this video don't even make sense. If a nobody on TL says the same thing he'd be called out lol.
Like when he said Snow was extremely late to add cannons on Polestar (5s margin). But you can see in the VOD that he spots the hydras at 8:15, but has to pull back zealots and sairs first (obviously), and at 8:17 his screen is already at his nat but of course the probe also has to travel to the spot as well. What kind of "0.5s optimization" possible in this case lol? Having an idle probe always on the spot and leaving your sairs and zealots to die?
Or when he said Bisu shouldn't have been in the same place because he'd have more zealots, discounting the fact that Snow's Gate was destroyed in the Ling bust.
And strangely no mention of the real issue (Snow's horrible sim city in that game).
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This is a bit dickish from Flash. Snow’s really good with reavers obviously but it’s not like he falls apart in long PvTs when reavers become less useful.
I’m nowhere near that level so won’t hypothesise why Snow struggles in PvZ. It’s a hard matchup and honestly, Bisu is probably the only guy who you’d take in bo7 vs any of the S tier ZvP guys (hero, SK, Soma).
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the very best players in the world always seem to find a way to abuse protoss when it comes to finals and big moments with a lot of preparation time.
but on ladder and in foreign leagues, protoss actually looks imbalanced, not zerg lol.
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It's funny because as a viewer I admire the optimization of Mini or Flash but as a player I'm more like SnOw, hoping micro will make up for a lack of refinement elsewhere. Optimizing a build order is fun but not to the degree some of these guys do. Talk about stress hives.
I've watched SnOw's POV and he is way more than reaver micro. The way he anticipates his opponent and blocks their moves, his army movement, his overall intuition...but at the same time he's another bed-shitter who falls to B-level zergs like Killer, and generally looks uncaffeinated and uninterested in some of his poorer performances.
The great thing about Brood War, which is what every game should have in my opinion, is the ability for players to express themselves. Not just skill expression, but personality. All these players are expressive. It's freaking sweet when a player has significant weaknesses but can harness their strengths to pull it back and be exceptional. Like, that's just the coolest thing ever. Cooler than the Fonz.
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The only way for a Protoss to win an ASL is probably by playing on TR 4 | Extra High latency.
At the highest level, Protoss is always seen as the weakest race.
At the lowest level, Protoss still as the weakest race too. Because Terran and Zerg players can reach the ASL Ro24 if they work hard enough. Some amateur players like Larva, Soma, and Barrack have even reached the finals or won the ASL, but only former KeSPA Protoss players have managed to do.
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This makes me wonder.
Any place to see spon match stats?
Not proleague, actual spons.
I wonder how much PvZ Bisu plays, and how much PvT Snow plays, relative to total, when it is +- their choice / what their fans ask of them.
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The problem is that those who talk about balance based on these series are just very discredited. Bisu lost 3:4 against a 6 years younger guy and basically lost because a misslick. Snow played so badly but still won 2 games he has family and 2 years older. Sorry guys but with knowing these things and with my experience there is not even close a reason to talking about balance if u did just so dont understand the game and the competition overall. Based on these, everyone could rightly say that P imba too.
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On November 10 2025 19:45 sas.Sziky wrote:
The problem is that those who talk about balance based on these series are just very discredited. Bisu lost 3:4 against a 6 years younger guy and basically lost because a misslick. Snow played so badly but still won 2 games he has family and 2 years older. Sorry guys but with knowing these things and with my experience there is not even close a reason to talking about balance if u did just so dont understand the game and the competition overall. Based on these, everyone could rightly say that P imba too.
do you think that it's possible for a guy like you to beat dewalt? If not, is he just so much better? or is it because he is Protoss?
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Sziky's post #27 or Kraekling's post #2 and many other similar posts are just strawman argument and never address the real issue. The conversation's just going in circle like that every time.
For one, people having these reactions after each major series is never because of player X losing to player Y. It's about the 11:2 and 9:0 of this world and yet another example of it. But I guess from the opposing point of view, playing it down to "because [this Z player] is better than [this P player]" each time is way easier than explaining why it keeps happening for 20 years.
Secondly, two things can be true at the same time: Snow could have played better, but ZvP could still be imbalanced. I've said time and time again that win or loss is not the issue, yet the manner of the win/loss is the real indication of the matchup imbalance. That some people think to be able to find some flaws in Snow's play is a catch-them-all argument for this whole balance discussion is ludicrous.
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Healthiness is way more important and interesting than balance. Early game ZvP is volatile and the hydra bust shit is old and clearly unhealthy. But it's not a question of balance at all imo. The power spikes in the matchup go back and forth, with P spiking big in the mid game and very late game. It's just that the early game feels Z favored when it comes to information obfuscation especially and if the game ends early then we don't see those later game spikes for P, ergo unhealthy. It skews the discussion and the stats. Then again, I don't give a fuck.
I get that it's fun to pore over the numbers and be a vocal spectator on the forums, but when pros don't blame their losses on balance or rile up the discussion, then people on here should take the cue, especially considering the only people that would enlighten such a conversation are the pros—or at the very least the people who play a lot whose mistakes are seldom enough that balance/healthiness plays a relevant role, not their own ineptitude—instead of the forum posters who don't even play and are just scratching at the wall because they have nothing else to do and outrage is seductive lol.
Both SnOw's points about his own play AND Flash's critique are far more compelling than the discussions that have gone on here, and they don't mention balance. Hmmmmmmm, very interesting indeed.
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I personally do think that ZvP is not perfectly balanced, which is due to maps. In general, the further we go back in time, the more imbalanced the maps get. If you look at any map pool during OSL/MSL, the maps were much worse for Protoss compared to maps today. This to me is a big part why we have these historical 11:2 stats.
All of this is true and there can be plenty of healthy discussion on why this is and how it can be fixed.
However, the outcome of this series in particular (4-2) is to be solely explained by player skill and how they played during the series:
- The stats agree that this outcome is fair (40%WR vs 63% WR)
- Snow agrees that this outcome is fair
- Flash agrees that this outcome is fair
Its not like we saw Shine 4-0 Bisu or something. This specific series is just a terrible data point to make any kind of argument of why the matchup is imbalanced.
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On November 10 2025 22:22 Kraekkling wrote:
I personally do think that ZvP is not perfectly balanced, which is due to maps. In general, the further we go back in time, the more imbalanced the maps get. If you look at any map pool during OSL/MSL, the maps were much worse for Protoss compared to maps today. This to me is a big part why we have these historical 11:2 stats.
All of this is true and there can be plenty of healthy discussion on why this is and how it can be fixed.
However, the outcome of this series in particular (4-2) is to be solely explained by player skill and how they played during the series:
- The stats agree that this outcome is fair (40%WR vs 63% WR)
- Snow agrees that this outcome is fair
- Flash agrees that this outcome is fair
Its not like we saw Shine 4-0 Bisu or something. This specific series is just a terrible data point to make any kind of argument of why the matchup is imbalanced.
Nah. There's a flaw in this logic.
I dont know what win rates you are talking about, but Snow vs Soma in 2025 (the only relevant stats) is 25-28 (47.2%)
But the main problem is that the unfairness of the matchup itself creates that 47.2%, so you can't take it as a reference and point back at the outcome and say it's fair.
How much Soma beat Snow by skill and how much he relies on the matchup advantage, there's no way to quantify (in the same way that you can't separate Flash and Tesagi). But for sure the outcome of the series is not "solely" explained by skill.
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On November 10 2025 13:20 TMNT wrote:
Flash's probably right in a general sense, considering even Snow criticized himself for his performance in the finals. But some of the examples he gave in this video don't even make sense. If a nobody on TL says the same thing he'd be called out lol.
Like when he said Snow was extremely late to add cannons on Polestar (5s margin). But you can see in the VOD that he spots the hydras at 8:15, but has to pull back zealots and sairs first (obviously), and at 8:17 his screen is already at his nat but of course the probe also has to travel to the spot as well. What kind of "0.5s optimization" possible in this case lol? Having an idle probe always on the spot and leaving your sairs and zealots to die?
Or when he said Bisu shouldn't have been in the same place because he'd have more zealots, discounting the fact that Snow's Gate was destroyed in the Ling bust.
And strangely no mention of the real issue (Snow's horrible sim city in that game).
He saw hydras 8:13-14. Third cannon on time (8:20 if a pylon is in the right place he can made fourth and fifth cannon 8:21 and sixth around 8:25) instead fourth was late 8:28 . ( also he made 2 cannon on his main but thats okay ).so he made pylons on natural on bad position or was late the right pylon so then late 4-5-6 cannon with bad position. if i would have to guess because the pylon was on wrong postion and he cant build on time cannon on the good position he hesitated and basically when he saw the hydras and his late pylon he already know ok i lost this. So yes those cannon was late and was on the bad position in this situation. + Also i think he not canceled the sixth corsair then it could have been +1 cannoni mean if he has good pylon 
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United States10328 Posts
On November 10 2025 13:20 TMNT wrote:
Flash's probably right in a general sense, considering even Snow criticized himself for his performance in the finals. But some of the examples he gave in this video don't even make sense. If a nobody on TL says the same thing he'd be called out lol.
Like when he said Snow was extremely late to add cannons on Polestar (5s margin). But you can see in the VOD that he spots the hydras at 8:15, but has to pull back zealots and sairs first (obviously), and at 8:17 his screen is already at his nat but of course the probe also has to travel to the spot as well. What kind of "0.5s optimization" possible in this case lol? Having an idle probe always on the spot and leaving your sairs and zealots to die?
Or when he said Bisu shouldn't have been in the same place because he'd have more zealots, discounting the fact that Snow's Gate was destroyed in the Ling bust.
And strangely no mention of the real issue (Snow's horrible sim city in that game).
Snow if he had proper building placement and sim city management: enlightenedsociety.jpg
The last time a Protoss beat a Zerg in a final was 2007 (Bisu vs Savior). The only other time was 2000 (Garimto vs Skeleton). Idk, seems pretty absurd to say that every single time the Zerg player was just better than the Protoss player.
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second game on Dominator, he scouted the hydra bust hours in advance
look at how slowly he makes cannons, doesn't even stop probe production
still, his cannons were almost on time. if he just pulls probes and gains a few seconds, he is safe and ahead. even the casters thought he was safe
instead he died to 12 hydras
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there was no bad pylon position. The 2nd pylon was made during the ling "all-in" to power cannon in case Soma attacks the 1st pylon. At that point, making yet another pylon would be (Flash's fav word) - bad optimization.
Of course, Snow needed to make that 3rd pylon there for the sake of safety at the cost of optimization.
I'm also a bit triggered when people quote progamers as if they were oracles or whatever. It is in their interest to have people believe this game is balanced, so just because of that they may be saying that. Another reason could be cultural differences, or some of them could just simply believe that.
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On November 11 2025 01:52 Kraekkling wrote:second game on Dominator, he scouted the hydra bust hours in advance look at how slowly he makes cannons, doesn't even stop probe production still, his cannons were almost on time. if he just pulls probes and gains a few seconds, he is safe and ahead. even the casters thought he was safe instead he died to 12 hydras
what are you trying to prove? Did Snow play perfectly? No, of course not. Most of us know that. Hardly anyone argues against that.
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the 40% and the 63% are just their respective win rates in this matchup in ASL
if we're trying to make general statements about the matchup, we need to consider how good the players are in this matchup
if anything, their respective head-to-head count is the worst metric to evaluate the matchup as a whole, since it will be influenced the most by things like personal style and relative strengths and weaknesses
what are you trying to prove? Did Snow play perfectly? No, of course not. Most of us know that. Hardly anyone argues against that.
I'm just getting triggered by TMNT replies. stopping now
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So can someone explain why we only take The final of a tournament to put this narrative that protoss cant beat zerg ? Why dont we look at semis ? Round of 8 ? I always found curious that Protoss beat zerg every freaking round before a final and all of sudden is like they got nerfed to the ground ?. Do u know something funny ? In the last OSL . There was 5 zergs in the round of 8. The final of the tournament was a Terran vs Protoss.
A little correction. Bisu was the last Protoss to win a pvz FInal vs Hero. SSL 9
 2014 9th SonicTV Starleague
Yeah it was before the ASL era but is worth noting that SSL started it all. Then 2 seasons later Hero beat him in the final.
If you look at the roster even Jangbi was participating. Hiya was beating Snow (i know yeah..) So for sure it was less competitive than now. It was also more more nostalgic when it came to pick maps. One of the seasons there was only protoss and terran in the round of 8. And the final was sSak vs Last. with a mappool like this
Blue Storm Fighting Spirit Return of the King Sin Peaks of Baekdu .
I dont think saying Protoss didnt win x finals is such an strong point you all wanna make when they are beating zergs before the final.
Btw i havent been able to post and to talk about maps but the reality of making maps for protoss is how greedy we allow them to go. Watch old kespa Games protoss was forced to play with 3 canons minimum if they wanted to survive with such shitty sim city. These days we allow them to defend with 1 canon. Perfect walls. And what happens is they die to rushes. I Swear protoss in the past didnt even die that much too the stuff we are seeing these days. So in a sense while Maps evolution has helped protoss in some aspects they also made it weaker in other fronts. Cuz now they are adapted to defend everything with 1 canons. with 2 zealots. etc How greedy can this player go so he get 150 populations and 9 minutes and shit the floor with zerg . In the mean time giving extremely hard setups for zerg to defend a 4 expansions. I mean shit these days you see zerg doing 20 minutes hive and seeing the first swarm at 21 minutes..
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We talking the same game Bonyth ? i am talking about the lowest pylon like a bad pylon ( that was not the second ) that pylon was why not above the nexus and then he can buld easily cannon for the correct postion.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/0ymK8qkp/Screenshot-20251110-174105-You-Tube.jpg)
