EPTYou may of course state your opinion here or show support to whichever side you believe is right. However, you don't need a dozen of posts to do so. Replying back and forth about small shit is not helpful, but just polluting the thread.
Community TO statement about Rapid and BSL - Page 4
| Forum Index > BW General |
BSL Statement about Rapid Casting: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/618964-bsl-statement-about-rapid-casting-in-lan | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5671 Posts
You may of course state your opinion here or show support to whichever side you believe is right. However, you don't need a dozen of posts to do so. Replying back and forth about small shit is not helpful, but just polluting the thread. | ||
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psd
France94 Posts
Wait... That is actually not quite true. Ofc we know that Gandi is trolling to point out that believing every story is stupid, but I wonder how would you defend from 20 women saying something Me too ! i belive there is a shadow cabal of angry women going around nuking down starcraft commentator internet reputation. Those damn women realy. Jesus this argument is hilarious. | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1206 Posts
On December 13 2023 23:08 psd wrote: Me too ! i belive there is a shadow cabal of angry women going around nuking down starcraft commentator internet reputation. Those damn women realy. Jesus this argument is hilarious. Glad you're finding entertainment in this. If posts like this continue to keep this topic at the top of the forum I'm ok with that. There's plenty of substance within this thread to read from like responses from guys like g5 who regularly keeps up with the community in a passive capacity, to tec27 who is the developer of shield battery. | ||
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TT1
Canada10045 Posts
The problem here is having to pick a side when really I don't think there is one, stuff like this should be examined case by case and the onus is on the accused to take action (to many this should be common sense but this point alone could cause divisiveness.. i think it's by far the best route, Johnny Depp = legend ^^). Before anything that's the first step and people's views will be pretty much set on the matter from that decision alone. 1 thing I've always regretted back in the day was not addressing my situation head on with an open letter to the community (I did write a letter before TSL2 but it was an internal letter to the TL staff, i should have made it public). I always wanted my actions to do the talking for me but in hindsight not being open about it left some ill will around with certain people I'm sure. Back to this topic, yes it's a shitty situation because what we're talking about here is much bigger. Every accused person faces a life changing situation, some are rightfully accused and others aren't. I think many people arguing against stuff like this are thinking about all the other people who are wrongfully accused and have to deal with what ends up being a nightmare scenario (character assassination). When matters like this stay in limbo it becomes bigger and starts to cause divisiveness/tribalism, which isn't healthy. It's not the same as back when we were kids because now we associate these situations with our other beliefs/values and that becomes our unyielding position. I understand both point of views but this situation imo isn't as much about the person in question (it is but it's mainly about association and how it makes the supporters feel) but more about BSL. BSL is viewed as an organization (and let's be honest this is new to a lot of people and they're possibly learning on the fly), as an organization you carry the values of the entire community. You can have your views on this topic from an individual level but at an organizational level you have responsibilities/obligations to the people who support you. It's obvious to see that many people in the community feel like they've been wronged but I think we should just take a step back and give ZZZero the time he needs to make his statement on the matter, I think he's earned that much from us. | ||
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kaby
Russian Federation195 Posts
On December 13 2023 21:11 quaristice wrote: there's tons of people who are better at commentary than rapid in the community, off the top of my head, apologies if i missed anyone: zzzero, artosis, bonyth, saiyan. listed those 4 first since they are physically at the event, dunno who else is there but i suspect basically anyone else there who knows about starcraft would do a better job. Everybody think of commentating in the first place. But actually, commentating is the less and easiest part of work that has to be done on LAN. You can notice that Rus_Brain listed the other work Rapid did too. Anyway, I'm not there and I can't tell what competencies are required in particular. All in all, usually on LANs, you need someone who knows what to do, not someone who has to be told what to do. And not someone who's just good at speaking in a microphone. And preferably, if you are not flooded with money from SA or whoever, you also need it for nearly free. And here is where the list is shrinking. | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States689 Posts
On December 13 2023 23:40 TT1 wrote: I'll talk from experience on this matter because I lived the baby version of this (maphack but bigger picture it's about trust/letting people around you down). We're at the grown up version of it now, they're both moral issues but of course the scale and impact are much different.. but I hope it'll help in some way. The problem here is having to pick a side when really I don't think there is one, stuff like this should be examined case by case and the onus is on the accused to take action (to many this should be common sense but this point alone could cause divisiveness.. i think it's by far the best route, Johnny Depp = legend ^^). Before anything that's the first step and people's views will be pretty much set on the matter from that decision alone. 1 thing I've always regretted back in the day was not addressing my situation head on with an open letter to the community (I did write a letter before TSL2 but it was an internal letter to the TL staff, i should have made it public). I always wanted my actions to do the talking for me but in hindsight not being open about it left some ill will around with certain people I'm sure. Back to this topic, yes it's a shitty situation because what we're talking about here is much bigger. Every accused person faces a life changing situation, some are rightfully accused and others aren't. I think many people arguing against stuff like this are thinking about all the other people who are wrongfully accused and have to deal with what ends up being a nightmare scenario (character assassination). When matters like this stay in limbo it becomes bigger and starts to cause divisiveness/tribalism, which isn't healthy. It's not the same as back when we were kids because now we associate these situations with our other beliefs/values and that becomes our unyielding position. I understand both point of views but this situation imo isn't as much about the person in question (it is but it's mainly about association and how it makes the supporters feel) but more about BSL. BSL is viewed as an organization (and let's be honest this is new to a lot of people and they're possibly learning on the fly), as an organization you carry the values of the entire community. You can have your views on this topic from an individual level but at an organizational level you have responsibilities/obligations to the people who support you. It's obvious to see that many people in the community feel like they've been wronged but I think we should just take a step back and give ZZZero the time he needs to make his statement on the matter, I think he's earned that much from us. xD Respect, and yes, it's a complicated matter. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10516 Posts
On December 13 2023 12:36 Rus_Brain wrote: It is quite evident to me that those undersigned were well aware of ZZZero's presence in Phuket until this week's end, engaged in a demanding schedule to provide top-tier content to a multi-hundred audience. Nevertheless, there appeared to be a desire to divert ZZZero's attention to satisfy the demands of a vocal minority seeking a statement. When an immediate response was not forthcoming, they publicly addressed the matter without affording ZZZero an opportunity to clarify. The act of plotting behind one's back raises genuine concerns regarding integrity. I myself took note of the ongoing discussions regarding the Rapid rage topic on this forum. In response, I chose to shield ZZZero from this discourse for a few compelling reasons: Firstly, I sought to prevent any distractions that might impede his commitment to delivering online content. I offered him the option of refraining from casting this tournament from the very beginning, however, ZZZero is a man of his word, and he proceeded with the online cast as he comitted years ago. Secondly, I aimed to safeguard ZZZero's emotional well-being and overall mood, unti at least he transit from the warmth of Phuket to the harsh winter in Poland. While I do hold in high regard the combined collective represented in this platform, it appears that some may lack firsthand experience in organizing events of such a scale, let alone offline tournaments. One must question the basis for calling for someone's removal solely on the grounds of criticism in a forum. The offline segment of the tournament fell under my purview, with Rapid providing valuable support by facilitating the participation of Sharp and offering outstanding photography services, among other contributions. It would be a misjudgment to conclude that acknowledging this part of the statement absolves Rapid of any responsibility for his past actions. However, making these past actions public can serve as a means of accountability, at least until such actions might potentially recur. Let me now consider the situation from an alternative perspective. Suppose, for the sake of argument, that every facet of the event was ZZZero's sole responsibility. In such a scenario, overlooking Rapid's involvement as a caster could be viewed as a form of negligence. Having had the privilege of collaborating with some of you in the past, however, I am aware that certain individuals have displayed a level of neglect in fulfilling their responsibilities that could have warranted legal action. In comparison, ZZZero's lapses appear far less severe. In the words of the Bible, as found in Matthew 7:1 it is essential to reflect upon our own actions before casting judgment upon others. As for matters of finance, let us not forget that, in the grand scheme of existence, money is but a fleeting concern. When we depart this world, our possessions will hold no sway. And for those who may have missed it, Geoff, at the very least, has departed during the time from the 20th Anniversary to the 25th Anniversary. Let us strive for understanding, empathy, and unity in our interactions, both online and offline. All I can say to you is, fuck off. Imagine serious bringing Bible verses and even uttering Geoff's name to try to score some sympathy points. Actually fuck off, what a disgusting person you are for trying to pull that shit. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3504 Posts
Poor Zzzero couldnt check anything online with barely 20ppl and 4 groups played over 4 days? Why? Did you take his phone from him? Is that how you shielded him? Was ZZZero not even raising the possibility this might be a terrible decision to you? You re comparing a cute little LAN of barely 20ppl in Thailand in a place you essentially own, where several people including your caster made their own travel plan to attend, with a few streams, to actual past international (or indeed national) tournaments? Hilarious stuff. Keep telling yourself that~ BSL isnt even top 3 foreign tournament in terms of numbers of players (and i m not even counting china), and that's in this day and age of a much reduced community size. The one thing it leads is in having money, so we d expect a higher standard, and yet the tournament rules are terrible, organization is amateur at best and not on par with most other tournaments, most of them ran for free on a voluntary basis by people with full time jobs and with kids. It s good that you posted to explain the situation a bit more. But ZZZero is a responsible adult (or so I hope) and should be able to think for himself. And if he wasn't for whatever reason then say it here it was your idea, you forced ZZZero into it against his strong wishes by presenting a fait accompli, and this event was 100% you giving the orders with ZZZero as your underling. Is that what it is? | ||
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des
United States507 Posts
On December 13 2023 12:36 Rus_Brain wrote: It is quite evident to me that those undersigned were well aware of ZZZero's presence in Phuket until this week's end, engaged in a demanding schedule to provide top-tier content to a multi-hundred audience. Nevertheless, there appeared to be a desire to divert ZZZero's attention to satisfy the demands of a vocal minority seeking a statement. When an immediate response was not forthcoming, they publicly addressed the matter without affording ZZZero an opportunity to clarify. The act of plotting behind one's back raises genuine concerns regarding integrity. I myself took note of the ongoing discussions regarding the Rapid rage topic on this forum. In response, I chose to shield ZZZero from this discourse for a few compelling reasons: Firstly, I sought to prevent any distractions that might impede his commitment to delivering online content. I offered him the option of refraining from casting this tournament from the very beginning, however, ZZZero is a man of his word, and he proceeded with the online cast as he comitted years ago. Secondly, I aimed to safeguard ZZZero's emotional well-being and overall mood, unti at least he transit from the warmth of Phuket to the harsh winter in Poland. Shielding ZZZero by *checks notes* shitposting and taking swipes at other community members. Your shielding made ZZZero look worse. If Rapid coming to the event was your decision you could just own it and say ZZZero had nothing to do with it and that would protect him better. On December 13 2023 20:44 WolFix wrote: Hm ok, so i just want to confirm this: Its not like we have proofs, screenshots, anything. We have stories which - I have no fucking idea why - were not addressed. Rapid apparently doesnt care about his reputation, is guilty or there is another reason i dont know about. I dont want to defend Rapid. Id like to stay with the facts so I can draw out my own conclusions. Please point out where I am incorrect. Even in a court of law, testimony is considered direct evidence, and if it isn't contradicted by other evidence is sufficient to conclude guilt. That multiple corroborating testimonies of Rapid's guilt across three communities is insufficient evidence just indicates bad faith, not any desire to treat people as innocent until proven guilty. | ||
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Gandi
Poland14 Posts
Even in a court of law, testimony is considered direct evidence, and if it isn't contradicted by other evidence is sufficient to conclude guilt. That multiple corroborating testimonies of Rapid's guilt across three communities is insufficient evidence just indicates bad faith, not any desire to treat people as innocent until proven guilty. This is false. It requires more than just not being contradicted by real evidence. It has to be given under oath and requires open court. Only then becomes "testimonial evidence" - not even a real evidence, because its worth is still based on its credibility. It works like that in US, Poland and probably in whole western world. What we get is just some story, not a direct evidence. Not even a testimony itself. | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1206 Posts
On December 14 2023 02:06 Gandi wrote: This is false. It requires more than just not being contradicted by real evidence. It has to be given under oath and requires open court. Only then becomes "testimonial evidence" - not even a real evidence, because its worth is still based on its credibility. It works like that in US, Poland and probably in whole western world. What we get is just some story, not a direct evidence. Not even a testimony itself. Tell us Gandi I want to hear your opinion. Do you think Rapid is a good person? If it's ambiguous how many opportunities should a person get? | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10516 Posts
On December 14 2023 02:06 Gandi wrote: This is false. It requires more than just not being contradicted by real evidence. It has to be given under oath and requires open court. Only then becomes "testimonial evidence" - not even a real evidence, because its worth is still based on its credibility. It works like that in US, Poland and probably in whole western world. What we get is just some story, not a direct evidence. Not even a testimony itself. Jesus christ this isn't a court of law. This is the court of public perception and the community. The burden of proof is not the same in a court room get over your head. I need some @BadLegalTakes from twitter in here to make a mockery out of people like you who keep bringing up this point over and over again as if we somehow need to find a judge and hash this out. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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redknights
206 Posts
Not really sure what the point of discussing legal admissibility of evidence is here, internet situations like these are notoriously difficult from a legal standpoint, especially regarding jurisdiction and enforcement. my two cents is that focusing on the legal details is pointless, people can "legally" do a whole bunch of things. Legal does not equal good. There are plenty of "legal" actions that are bad or unwise. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10516 Posts
On December 14 2023 02:41 redknights wrote: Legal professional here, the bad legal takes are making my head spin lol. Not really sure what the point of discussing legal admissibility of evidence is here, internet situations like these are notoriously difficult from a legal standpoint, especially regarding jurisdiction and enforcement. my two cents is that focusing on the legal details is pointless, people can "legally" do a whole bunch of things. Legal does not equal good. There are plenty of "legal" actions that are bad or unwise. Not to mention not even making any response or reaction is analogous to not answering a summons and thus a directed verdict anyways. | ||
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Gandi
Poland14 Posts
Tell us Gandi I want to hear your opinion. Do you think Rapid is a good person? If it's ambiguous how many opportunities should a person get? I don't know. I'm no authority to judge, but certainly people here have no issue with witchhunt and just want to see blood. Even if someone MIGHT be falsely accused. You all have no issue with ruining peoples life based on opinion or emotions. Jesus christ this isn't a court of law. This is the court of public perception and the community. The burden of proof is not the same in a court room get over your head. I need some @BadLegalTakes from twitter in here to make a mockery out of people like you who keep bringing up this point over and over again as if we somehow need to find a judge and hash this out. I'm not the one who started the court arugment. On December 14 2023 02:30 JimmiC wrote: Look at his post count, stop feeding the trolls. We already had a guy that based the truthfulness on response speed. Now we have one that bases it on how much shitposts you have created. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3504 Posts
On December 14 2023 02:50 Gandi wrote: I don't know. I'm no authority to judge, but certainly people here have no issue with witchhunt and just want to see blood. Even if someone MIGHT be falsely accused. You all have no issue with ruining peoples life based on opinion or emotions. I'm not the one who started the court arugment. We already had a guy that based the truthfulness on response speed. Now we have one that bases it on how much shitposts you have created. Is there a literacy problem in Poland? The OP isn't arguing whether or not Rapid s ban was fair in the first place. This is an argument you d have to bring to Zzzero about his decision back then. Feel free to bump those threads, in fact where were all of you at the time? Why now and not then? But i highly doubt stopping someone from casting after they didnt anyway for 3+ years is ruining their lives. But again this is besides the point. However since none of you seem to be willing to discuss the actual point, it s probably because you know it is correct. | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2610 Posts
Lol all the people attacking ZZZero in this thread are absolutely insane and need to get down on earth. Like for real... Was it a horrible idea to let Rapid into the event? Yes, for sure. No doubt in that and I am sure ZZZero is well aware of this by now. Does this really warrant the flak towards ZZZero though? For fucks sake no. And anybody saying dumb shit like "BSL is amateur tournament", "not even top 3" or some other stupid ass statement, need to wake the fuck up... The most important thing to say is: Thank you ZZZero for bringing us such a nice tournament and keeping foreign BW alive. Please do not invite ppl like Rapid anymore! But thank you anyway for all the hard work and effort you put into our mutual hobby, even quitting your day job to keep supporting Broodwar. | ||
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Gandi
Poland14 Posts
Is there a literacy problem in Poland? Any other racist comment? I think it's enough internet for you today. Apart from me being polish I'm also black. Want to make comment about black people being unable to read too? | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5838 Posts
On December 14 2023 03:05 chrisolo wrote: Holy shit, some people in this thread are dumb.... Lol all the people attacking ZZZero in this thread are absolutely insane and need to get down on earth. Like for real... Was it a horrible idea to let Rapid into the event? Yes, for sure. No doubt in that and I am sure ZZZero is well aware of this by now. Does this really warrant the flak towards ZZZero though? For fucks sake no. And anybody saying dumb shit like "BSL is amateur tournament", "not even top 3" or some other stupid ass statement, need to wake the fuck up... The most important thing to say is: Thank you ZZZero for bringing us such a nice tournament and keeping foreign BW alive. Please do not invite ppl like Rapid anymore! But thank you anyway for all the hard work and effort you put into our mutual hobby, even quitting your day job to keep supporting Broodwar. Who are those people attacking ZZZero? I literally don't see any posts attacking him. | ||
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