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On November 16 2007 22:16 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2007 21:18 SeBASTa wrote:
he's good
he was probably the best back then. but I doubt his qualification for being consider as a bonjwa.
But, the only reason I lol@him is, he seemed not concerned when he was going downwards. He fell, not because of his capability, but he did not pay much attention to this game any more. In this regards, Guillaume Patry is not in the same calibre with Lim yo-hwan or any successors same with all the other bonjwas they started getting fame and dominating then they started going out way more banging fan girls etc buying luxury items and they all went down hill look at savior now, he bought a car lOL WHY DOES HE NEED A CAR
They DO concern about their performance they DID NOT disappear even after their completion of becoming a bonjwa
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Those who are amazed that these excellent SC players all have a birthday in November shouldn't be. It's an interesting fact, but the calculations people are doing here are off by a lot.
For example, in a group of just seven random people, it is more likely than not that two of them will have a birthday within a week of each other. Also, in a group of 23 people there's a 50% probability that one pair will share the same birthday.
Look up the "birthday problem" or "birthday paradox" to see why. Wikipedia has a nice article on it.
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Predictions update:
1. Bisu will win the next MSL.
2. Bisu will not win the current OSL.
3. However, Bisu will grab the OSL following the next MSL's finals.
4. In two MSL, another new bonjwa will take over and win his first starleague ever.
Still believing. 
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hehe keep dreaming. Bisu is a villain. He's not destined for bonjwa.
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On November 17 2007 20:09 bine wrote:
hehe keep dreaming. Bisu is a villain. He's not destined for bonjwa.
Savior had much more of a "villain"-like personality than Bisu imho. :p
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Yes I still have faith too.
This can't already be over for protoss. 
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United States7488 Posts
On November 17 2007 19:53 PoP wrote:Predictions update: 1. Bisu will win the next MSL. 2. Bisu will not win the current OSL. 3. However, Bisu will grab the OSL following the next MSL's finals. 4. In two MSL, another new bonjwa will take over and win his first starleague ever. Still believing.
I think al this may be happening sooner than expected.
Mind just won the first starleague he participated in and Bisu looks like he has a good shot at the OSL title with the way the bracket currently looks.
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On November 17 2007 19:53 PoP wrote:Predictions update: 1. Bisu will win the next MSL. 2. Bisu will not win the current OSL. 3. However, Bisu will grab the OSL following the next MSL's finals. 4. In two MSL, another new bonjwa will take over and win his first starleague ever. Still believing.
Yeah... I'm gonna have to disagree.
And though it hurts me to say this (cus I'm a big July fan), but Bisu's more like July when he made his zvt statement beating the unstoppable oov. Bisu is only really dominate (in the sense of the word itself, and that of bonjwa) in PvZ, which still needs to stand the test of time. His PvP/PvT are all good, but they're not, what's the word.... "transcendental," like a bowjwa ought to be.
He'll be remembered for bringing down Savior just like when July brought down OOv, as well as being the champ of many other starleagues I'm sure, but he's not a bonjwa.
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On November 17 2007 20:41 .dragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2007 19:53 PoP wrote:Predictions update: 1. Bisu will win the next MSL. 2. Bisu will not win the current OSL. 3. However, Bisu will grab the OSL following the next MSL's finals. 4. In two MSL, another new bonjwa will take over and win his first starleague ever. Still believing. Yeah... I'm gonna have to disagree. And though it hurts me to say this (cus I'm a big July fan), but Bisu's more like July when he made his zvt statement beating the unstoppable oov. Bisu is only really dominate (in the sense of the word itself, and that of bonjwa) in PvZ, which still needs to stand the test of time. His PvP/PvT are all good, but they're not, what's the word.... "transcendental," like a bowjwa ought to be. He'll be remembered for bringing down Savior just like when July brought down OOv, as well as being the champ of many other starleagues I'm sure, but he's not a bonjwa.
Well even if things go according to this scenario Bisu will be considered above July if no toss bonjwa arise after him.
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What does Bonjwa stand for ? T___T
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On November 17 2007 20:57 Silent_Marine wrote:
What does Bonjwa stand for ? T___T
utterly dominant player.
There is no precise sense for it though which allows much flaming.
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On November 17 2007 20:41 .dragoon wrote:
He'll be remembered for bringing down Savior just like when July brought down OOv, as well as being the champ of many other starleagues I'm sure, but he's not a bonjwa.
2 MSL wins and a MSL final out of 3 MSLs, that's pretty much exactly the path Savior took so far, so I would definitely not rule him out just yet.
When Savior got crushed by Chojja 3-1 people were saying his kindof average ZvZ wouldn't allow him to be successful for too long, yet he managed to improve it a lot and even kicked Chojja out of the following MSL.
Bisu has two godly matchups, PvZ and PvP, and a more inconsistent one-- just like Savior at the time. I still believe he has what it takes to follow the same path.
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On November 17 2007 21:01 boudiou wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2007 20:57 Silent_Marine wrote:
What does Bonjwa stand for ? T___T utterly dominant player. There is no precise sense for it though which allows much flaming.
At the highest level of competition, the unbalance is not of the game but inside the player himself.
Years ago terran domination was such that TvZ was considered to be imbalanced, the timing and the micro required was beyond the ability of those playing at the time. Then lo and behold, a micro-oriented player with godly timing appeared and showed everyone the way to a consistent ZvT streak.
No one person can be everything to everyone. Someone better will always appear. Those who manage to get closest who last the longest are called bonjwa.
On November 17 2007 21:15 PoP wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2007 20:41 .dragoon wrote:
He'll be remembered for bringing down Savior just like when July brought down OOv, as well as being the champ of many other starleagues I'm sure, but he's not a bonjwa. 2 MSL wins and a MSL final out of 3 MSLs, that's pretty much exactly the path Savior took so far, so I would definitely not rule him out just yet. When Savior got crushed by Chojja 3-1 people were saying his kindof average ZvZ wouldn't allow him to be successful for too long, yet he managed to improve it a lot and even kicked Chojja out of the following MSL. Bisu has two godly matchups, PvZ and PvP, and a more inconsistent one-- just like Savior at the time. I still believe he has what it takes to follow the same path.
In accolades, yes, but in the quality of the gameplaying itself you can see that Bisu's one true MU is PvZ in which he appears to be untouchable, he appears bonjwa.
But that's not all. Other protosses seem to have an issue with copying his build and making it effective. If you remember what we talked about earlier in the thread, OOv made his macro-centric play a trend, so did Savior and his 3gas defiler play. Why can't current protoss imitate Bisu?
Finally, a mirror MU is different from a non-mirror. Every single bonjwa has a relatively weak mirror compare to their non-mirrors where the factor of luck is that much higher. You could call that a sign as well if you want to stretch it (like the birth month thing).
Bisu is good, really good. I hope his presence in progaming will someday lead a period of true protoss domination, where a protoss user will be god. It's hard to imagine a protoss better than Bisu at this moment, I know that. The person doesn't know it yet himself either, but he's out there.
It'll happen.
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If he beats Savior in the current OSL I think hes going to win the OSL. Then he will claim his 3rd MSL later.
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People, don't be absurd and stupid and say Mind is the next Bonjwa, he is far from it and he has much to prove still down the road.
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NaDa has much more archievements.. in 2006 also.. etc.
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On November 17 2007 21:37 .dragoon wrote:
In accolades, yes, but in the quality of the gameplaying itself you can see that Bisu's one true MU is PvZ in which he appears to be untouchable, he appears bonjwa.
Well, If you look at Savior's stats up to when he lost to Chojja in CYON MSL finals, you'll notice that his only scary matchup at the time (stats-wise, at least), was ZvT (21-11, 66% win). His ZvP was very good (15-9, 62%) but far from the level he reached afterwards (man, he had half the ZvP losses he has right now). As for his ZvZ (18-17, 51%), it was no more than average.
Bisu is:
- even more impressive in his dominant matchup (PvZ, 28-12, 70%) than Savior's at the time (66%) ;
- overall better in his "secondary" matchups as well (58% average, to 55% average).
On top of that, Bisu is playing OSLs at the same time. Savior didn't qualify for one before actually getting his 3 MSL belts.
Don't get me wrong, I know those are just stats/facts. You have the right to think that Savior was overall scarier in his actual play, regardless of win ratios. But you can't deny that he also got a lot better, starleague after starleague. I'm fairly confident Bisu hasn't reached his best level yet.
Well, I guess time will tell.
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Nice move, slipping in the word "facts". I don't make it a habit of including stats cus it's hard to argue stats of different MUs. Also Bisu has played in 3 MSL finals, that should pull Savior's stats up to 7/16/06 ending with his Pringles 1 victory in order to compare them fairly (66% ZvT 55% ZvZ 67% ZvP). And I don't think because Savior got better = Bisu is going to. There's no casual relationship there. Bisu may very well get better - when he gets better.
Like I said, Savior lost a mirror matchup. Bisu lost in a PvT, which is inexcusable. Terran is the mainstay of starcraft, outnumbering the other races 2:1. vT games will always outnumber other MUs. Bisu better get a move on getting better at it. In fact when comparing stats, ZvT should be compared to PvT, not dominant to dominant.
Some reasons are hardly worth mentioning, like "Bisu is playing OSLs at the same time." Savior played OSL/MSL at the same time, gold for OSL, silver for MSL. Stork got a bronze for OSL and silver for MSL. By that train Bisu better get at least a bronze in this OSL to match Stork, gold if he wants to match Savior.
But the most important thing is still the play Bisu created. To be bonjwa he better be influencial. Ps better start PvZ winning trend or he's not gonna be bonjwa. The more others imitate him, the more they win, the more bonjwa protects his stay at the top.
Hehe this whole speculative convo is overreaching. When OSL quarterfinal rolls around we'll know if he can take the pumped-up Savior.
-ps PoP can you put those youtube vids in spoilers? Kinda hard to read the OP.
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On November 18 2007 04:12 .dragoon wrote:
Nice move, slipping in the word "facts". I don't make it a habit of including stats cus it's hard to argue stats of different MUs. Also Bisu has played in 3 MSL finals, that should pull Savior's stats up to 7/16/06 ending with his Pringles 1 victory in order to compare them fairly (66% ZvT 55% ZvZ 67% ZvP). And I don't think because Savior got better = Bisu is going to. There's no casual relationship there. Bisu may very well get better - when he gets better.
Well, my point was to compare them right after they lost their respective MSL, when people may have doubted their ability to come back and win again-- but your comparison is indeed probably more fair.
And I'm not implying Bisu will get better (I do think he will, though). I'm merely pointing out that (imho) Savior, like all the previous bonjwas, didn't reach his best level immediately, but rather progressively. I believe the same process could apply to Bisu as well, but again, time only will tell.
Like I said, Savior lost a mirror matchup. Bisu lost in a PvT, which is inexcusable. Terran is the mainstay of starcraft, outnumbering the other races 2:1. vT games will always outnumber other MUs. Bisu better get a move on getting better at it. In fact when comparing stats, ZvT should be compared to PvT, not dominant to dominant.
I don't really think Bisu's PvT is as bad as it looked today (because let's be honest, although Mind's play was flawless, Bisu's decisions and micro were subpar). Neither did I think Savior was as bad at ZvZ as it looked during that finals vs Chojja. Neither did I think Nada had a problem with TvP when he got newb-raped by Nal_rA.
And I still fail to see how a mirror is any different. It's just a matchup. Players can be as dominant in mirrors (Chojja's ZvZ a while ago, Reach's PvP at some point, FBH's TvT before jinxing himself, etc) as they can in other matchups.
You've got a point on that vT-games-outnumbering-the-rest part though. Didn't even think about it that way.
We'll all agree in any case that Bisu will have to become more consistent at PvT if he's planning to follow his predecessors' steps.
Some reasons are hardly worth mentioning, like "Bisu is playing OSLs at the same time." Savior played OSL/MSL at the same time, gold for OSL, silver for MSL. Stork got a bronze for OSL and silver for MSL. By that train Bisu better get at least a bronze in this OSL to match Stork, gold if he wants to match Savior.
But Savior didn't have to care about OSL while he was owning up the MSL. Bisu had to split his focus this season, although in this particular case it probably didn't have too much of an effect, as he only had PvT's to play on both starleagues lately.
I'm not trying to find him excuses though. I just believe that, so far, he's doing just as good as the former bonjwas, at the very least.
But the most important thing is still the play Bisu created. To be bonjwa he better be influencial. Ps better start PvZ winning trend or he's not gonna be bonjwa. The more others imitate him, the more they win, the more bonjwa protects his stay at the top.
I don't know if he started a "trend" or not, but lately I noticed there's been a lot more PvZ wins than a while ago. Maybe I'm dreaming, so I'll try to gather some stats from the TLPD database to get a better clue.
I'm not sure I'm getting your point though. How would generating a trend help him stay at the top? It's not like he needs other Protosses to kick out the Zergs for him.
-ps PoP can you put those youtube vids in spoilers? Kinda hard to read the OP.
K.
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EPT
