Disclaimer: This thread is a little old now. The "pattern" is only something interesting/fun I noticed back then. This is *not* the official definition of a bonjwa in any way, and a player doesn't need to achieve that to be considered bonjwa. A bonjwa is someone who completely and utterly dominates the game for at least 8-9 months, winning several starleagues in the process. The pattern is only a path they somehow all seem(ed) to follow.
Every four MSL, a progamer wins three out of four MSL and the following OSL, and the bonjwa* story repeats itself... Every X MSLs, a progamer wins three MSL and the following OSL, and a new bonjwa is born.
2002-2003: NaDa 2002 KPGA 2nd Tour*: NaDa wins his 1st MSL 2002 KPGA 3rd Tour: NaDa wins his 2nd MSL 2002 KPGA 4th Tour: NaDa wins his 3rd MSL 2002 Panasonic OSL: NaDa wins his 1st OSL 2003 Stout MSL: Nal_rA wins MSL ... Nada's level of play starts dropping a bit...
[Transition VODs coming soon...]
2003-2004: iloveoov 2003 TriGem MSL: iloveoov beats NaDa and wins his 1st MSL 2004 CEN Game MSL: iloveoov wins his 2nd MSL 2004 SPRIS MSL: iloveoov wins his 3rd MSL 2004 YATGK MSL: Gorush wins MSL 2004 EVER2004 OSL: iloveoov wins his 1st OSL ... iloveoov's level of play starts dropping a bit...
2005-2006: sAviOr 2005 UZOO MSL: sAviOr wins his 1st MSL 2005 CYON MSL: ChoJJa wins MSL 2006 Pringles-1 MSL: sAviOr wins his 2nd MSL 2006 Pringles-2 MSL: sAviOr wins his 3rd MSL 2006 ShinHan2006-3 OSL: sAviOr wins his 1st OSL ... sAviOr's level of play starts dropping a bit...
And meanwhile, a certain Leta, born in November (ah ah) just took down Flash in the current MSL and is now one of the big favorites to win the whole thing and, maybe, take over the pattern.
Notes: 1. sAviOr couldn't take down Oov during UZOO MSL because they never faced each other. Crushed him twice in the following one, though. 2. It's also interesting to note that any bonjwa seems to be automatically jinxed vs the following one: - NaDa is 5-16 against Oov in official games (also lost during some chinese event finals) ; - Oov is 0-6 against Savior (also lost during a chinese event, but won in a SuperFight) ; - Savior is 1-5 against Bisu (something like 2-10 including special events). 3. All bonjwas were born in November (1 chance out of 1728 to happen for any given month if I'm not mistaken). Coincidence?
*OLD*Predictions: 1. Bisu will win the current MSL. 2. Bisu will also win the OSL following the next MSL's finals. 3. In the next MSL, another new bonjwa will take over and win his first starleague ever.
*bonjwa (by rinizim) - This word really is an ugly Korean slang, neither structurely nor grammatically coherent (it just doesn't make sense), but nonetheless used widely to mean the 'best'.
But the way things look, Bisu will win the MSL again lol. But hopefully we get to see a rematch of GomTV S1! Savior and Bisu are on opposite sides of the bracket and their respective opponents don't look like they have much of a chance . WILL SAVIOR FINALLY BREAK THE BISU BUILD? OR WILL HE BE STEAMROLLED AGAIN. (Please not another 3-0 lol)
2003 TriGem MSL: iloveoov beats TNaDa and wins his 1st MSL on his 1st MSL appearance 2005 UZOO MSL: sAviOr wins his 1st MSL on his 1st MSL appearance 2006 GOMTV MSL S1: Bisu beats ZsAviOr and wins his 1st MSL on his 1st MSL appearance
On October 28 2007 05:04 Konni wrote: What's with all the talk about Testie in MSL? He doesn't even go to korea, I thought. Or should it be "lol at the romanian guys"?
No, he's right. Savior is 6-0 vs him in official matches. This was a special event, and only one game anyway. The records are there: any bonjwa seems to be automatically jinxed vs the following one.
Nada is 5-16 against Oov in official games (also lost in some chinese event finals). Oov is 0-6 against Savior (also lost in some chinese event, but won in Superfight). Savior is 0-3 against Bisu (also lost at least twice in special events).
Not jinxed, but the so-called bonjwa seems to standardize a part of his own style among the pros, which leads to the next one to become specialized in dismantling that style.
On October 28 2007 06:32 .dragoon wrote: Not jinxed, but the so-called bonjwa seems to standardize a part of his own style among the pros, which leads to the next one to become specialized in dismantling that style.
The "standardization" is what creates the next bowjwa. The domination of the bowjwa depends on this standardization among the pros from the previous one. So when they crossover (like nada vs savior or oov vs bisu), all bets are off.
And the "level of play starts dropping a bit" really isn't that he's playing worse, but that people around him are playing better because of him.
If you look at Boxer's case, it's different. His era was in the wild.
On October 28 2007 06:41 .dragoon wrote: And the "level of play starts dropping a bit" really isn't that he's playing worse, but that people around him are playing better because of him.
I only partially agree with that. Usually, when these players win the OSL, they have reached the highest (professional) goals they could ever dream of: winning the two most competitive tournaments that exist. You could clearly see that NaDa had lost his "invincibleness" right after Panasonic. He went from extremely determined/confident during Panasonic to sloppy/nervous during Olympus. He was playing significantly worse because of this. He had nothing left to win, only stuff to lose.
Same happened to Oov, while Savior seems to still have "it" since his OSL loss... just a tad less, which makes all the difference.
On October 28 2007 06:56 Last Romantic wrote: That silly Yoon-Yeol is a bit of an anomaly though, because he's won two further OSL to get Golden Mouse.
Well, Oov won another OSL too. There doesn't seem to be a "pattern" anymore after they've won their first OSL. It seems they usually come back later to win a title every once in a while, though without displaying the same kind of domination ever again.
On October 28 2007 06:56 Last Romantic wrote: That silly Yoon-Yeol is a bit of an anomaly though, because he's won two further OSL to get Golden Mouse.
Well, Oov won another OSL too. There doesn't seem to be a "pattern" anymore after they've won their first OSL. It seems they usually come back later to win a title every once in a while, though without displaying the same kind of domination ever again.
That's actually very telling. I remember something TanthalaS said back in the old wc2 kali days.
TanthalaS wrote: Keep in mind that most people occasionally venture outside of their classifications in an effort to get better, but more often than not, when the chips are down, a Repeater will repeat and a Specialist will specialize, etc.
I think the period of domination is them doing what they do best - playing according to their own style. After that it becomes about "venturing" out of their own personality-driven style in an effort to win again. And like forcing yourself to do what you don't like, it's not consistent.
On October 28 2007 06:41 .dragoon wrote: And the "level of play starts dropping a bit" really isn't that he's playing worse, but that people around him are playing better because of him.
I only partially agree with that. Usually, when these players win the OSL, they have reached the highest (professional) goals they could ever dream of: winning the two most competitive tournaments that exist. You could clearly see that NaDa had lost his "invincibleness" right after Panasonic. He went from extremely determined/confident during Panasonic to sloppy/nervous during Olympus. He was playing significantly worse because of this. He had nothing left to win, only stuff to lose.
Same happened to Oov, while Savior seems to still have "it" since his OSL loss... just a tad less, which makes all the difference.
these are the reasons that none of these players will be truly great IMO, if they had more determination they could be much better (if one of them had that determination theyd easily be the GOAT BW player)
GOATS in every sport/game dont get bored of winning, great players do.
An OSL win is the pinnacle of Korean Progaming achievement, it's no surprise that it's so hard to repeat. Progaming requires ridiculous sharpness and practice motivation, and there just isn't much to motivate a champion after he's won the OSL. Every little bit of edge matters so much.
and GiYom if you go by just OSL definition (Hanaro wasn't broadcasted by OGN but its successor tournaments [naver onwards] were OGN broadcasted; so it is an "OSL" but not from royal road context) Plus, whoever won the first OSL was going to be a royal roader no matter what, so it's a bit silly XP
On October 28 2007 06:41 .dragoon wrote: And the "level of play starts dropping a bit" really isn't that he's playing worse, but that people around him are playing better because of him.
I only partially agree with that. Usually, when these players win the OSL, they have reached the highest (professional) goals they could ever dream of: winning the two most competitive tournaments that exist. You could clearly see that NaDa had lost his "invincibleness" right after Panasonic. He went from extremely determined/confident during Panasonic to sloppy/nervous during Olympus. He was playing significantly worse because of this. He had nothing left to win, only stuff to lose.
Same happened to Oov, while Savior seems to still have "it" since his OSL loss... just a tad less, which makes all the difference.
these are the reasons that none of these players will be truly great IMO, if they had more determination they could be much better (if one of them had that determination theyd easily be the GOAT BW player)
GOATS in every sport/game dont get bored of winning, great players do.
how about nada? if anyone, nada is truly great. hes won a major title in every era of progaming and time and time again has improved to keep up with the current gamers. he definitely doesnt seem bored of winning.
and what saviors done so far is pretty insane. looking at his individual games and his play, his level has dropped a bit, but if you look at his results he doesnt show a slump nearly as big as any of the other bonjwas did. after being dethroned by bisu in the first gomtv finals, he made the quarterfinals of both starleagues and now is in another MSL semifinal and he looks to be in an excellent position to make the OSL quarters too. pretty crazy.
Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D NaDa: 1984-11-20 Oov: 1983-11-05 sAviOr: 1987-11-23 Bisu: 1989-11-03 For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
On October 28 2007 23:12 PoP wrote: Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D NaDa: 1984-11-20 Oov: 1983-11-05 sAviOr: 1987-11-23 Bisu: 1989-11-03 For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
WOW I HAVE THE SAME BIRTHDAY AS OOV. (DIFFERNET YEAR)
On October 28 2007 23:12 PoP wrote: Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D NaDa: 1984-11-20 Oov: 1983-11-05 sAviOr: 1987-11-23 Bisu: 1989-11-03 For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
On October 28 2007 23:12 PoP wrote: Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D NaDa: 1984-11-20 Oov: 1983-11-05 sAviOr: 1987-11-23 Bisu: 1989-11-03 For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
I'll be sure to fuck my future wife in Feb. You know for the sake of living vicariously through the pro gaming acheivements of my offspring
On October 28 2007 23:12 PoP wrote: Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D NaDa: 1984-11-20 Oov: 1983-11-05 sAviOr: 1987-11-23 Bisu: 1989-11-03 For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
what a coincidence I'm next bonjwa then I was born in november OMG
Statistically four People born in same month should be like (1/12)^3=1/1728 = 0.06%, the first one has free choice. Before the whole thing begin.
But for four people born all in Nov (given month) it is (1/12)^4=1/20736 = 0,005%. So randomly pick four people that all born in Nov is really very rare 0,005% chance you will success.After 100,000 pick you will get it 5 times.
I know if they are all born in Jan or Dec, it will make the same spectacular. But 0.06% is also really small.
In combination of the MSL domination of those four champions and the fact they almost one after another without break dominate the MSL, it is like someone said before, it is like staged.
umm...that's not the least interesting. it puzzles me how people are looking for patterns exactly everywhere. so what they're all born in the same month? just look at all the things that doesn't add up. they're not born in the same year, not at the same place, not on the same day of a month, they are not equally tall, didn't go to the same school, they don't share the same name, etc. you get the point.
sorry if i got to riled up over a simple joke but sometimes i can't help but suspect that some people really, genuinly, thought this was something amazing.
On November 03 2007 01:19 Aepplet wrote: umm...that's not the least interesting. it puzzles me how people are looking for patterns exactly everywhere. so what they're all born in the same month? just look at all the things that doesn't add up. they're not born in the same year, not at the same place, not on the same day of a month, they are not equally tall, didn't go to the same school, they don't share the same name, etc. you get the point.
sorry if i got to riled up over a simple joke but sometimes i can't help but suspect that some people really, genuinly, thought this was something amazing.
...and? So, in the case of a real conspiracy, you'd say a hypothetical conspiracy couldn't be a conspiracy because of some other random crap that had nothing to do with the matching elements?
Oh wtf I had to have this thread to remind me it was early November and almost my birthday. -_-;;
Actually, Bisu probably has a greater chance than not to win either this or next MSL, which is pretty scary. But when he wins his first OSL if ever? Cute pattern, but yeah. It probably stops here.
On October 28 2007 23:12 PoP wrote: Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D NaDa: 1984-11-20 Oov: 1983-11-05 sAviOr: 1987-11-23 Bisu: 1989-11-03 For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
On November 03 2007 02:22 Myrmidon wrote: Oh wtf I had to have this thread to remind me it was early November and almost my birthday. -_-;;
Actually, Bisu probably has a greater chance than not to win either this or next MSL, which is pretty scary. But when he wins his first OSL if ever? Cute pattern, but yeah. It probably stops here.
So you're saying Bisu probably won't win one of the next OSL (or the current one)? If he can get past the group stage, not many people can stop him in a bo3/5 series these days.
Overall I'd say the 'pattern' is in a pretty damn good shape right now, but we'll see what happens.
About the November thing, I was just trying to find out how old they were when they won their first MSL and that's when I noticed they were all born in the same month. I don't think it's particularly relevant in itself, but when adding up all the stuff written in the OP it's imho pretty intruiguing to say the least.
On November 03 2007 01:19 Aepplet wrote: umm...that's not the least interesting. it puzzles me how people are looking for patterns exactly everywhere. so what they're all born in the same month? just look at all the things that doesn't add up. they're not born in the same year, not at the same place, not on the same day of a month, they are not equally tall, didn't go to the same school, they don't share the same name, etc. you get the point.
sorry if i got to riled up over a simple joke but sometimes i can't help but suspect that some people really, genuinly, thought this was something amazing.
...and? So, in the case of a real conspiracy, you'd say a hypothetical conspiracy couldn't be a conspiracy because of some other random crap that had nothing to do with the matching elements?
you're telling me the month of birth is a relevant element and the things i listed is "random crap"? absolutely ludicrous! Categorically dismissing every factor pointing against a theory as a coincidence while cherry picking elements to support it makes my blood boil.
I don't know why you guys insist so much on that November thing though. It's just a little additional "fun" detail. The pattern is not about this, it's about the 4 MSL "season" thingy.
On October 28 2007 23:12 PoP wrote: Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D NaDa: 1984-11-20 Oov: 1983-11-05 sAviOr: 1987-11-23 Bisu: 1989-11-03 For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
Hmm, someone has been spending too much time on the TLPD
Sadly Savior's chance to interrupt the bonjwa story has now gone for the 3rd time goddamned history repeating bullshit! didn't even let him play against Bisu again
On November 09 2007 08:50 Zelniq wrote: MSL SEASON 3 SEMIFINAL SAVIOR VS MIND SPOILER + Show Spoiler +
Sadly Savior's chance to interrupt the bonjwa story has now gone for the 3rd time goddamned history repeating bullshit! didn't even let him play against Bisu again
That's exactly in line with the history that a previous bonjwa won't be the one to topple the current one, whether he fails in actual execution or that he never gets his chance to.
uhhh just wondering i dont think bisu is 3-0 against savior, this is wat i remember he beat savior 3-0 in Gom TV Finals then he beat him again at the World Wide Invitational at the finals 2-1 so the score is pretty much 5-1 if im not mistaken
I was thinking earlier today while watching a sports news show about football. They always have the craziest statistics and records for even the most ridiculous things. Why don't people keep track of the players or teams who have the most/least zealots created, or the most drones irradiated, or the least units lost in a game, etc.
On November 09 2007 12:18 .Ix wrote: i have the same birthday as oov too O_o
it'll be Mind. mind will break bisu. i rolled a die with one terran on each side.
i have the same birthday as Arnold Swartzenegger thats more pimp :O
next bonjwa, Jaedong if he gets his zvp good? Mind if he is totally crazy and underrated? Flash when he's old enough to have developed a fully functional brain? time will tell
Would be fun to see BestGod becoming a bonjwa. omg seriously wtf is up with his nick
wow i didnt know that november thing but it totally makes sense for me... im a scorpio myself and indeed i have always been better in competition than in practice (been pretty good in table tennis (won a whole bunch of tourneys, even an international one), played tennis for 1 year and quit, still won the clubs trophy after that 1 year). i also would always have described my strength as being mental. It has nothing to do with mechanics or just being technically better, my strength always came from my strong will to fight and win. Im pretty sure all of the bonjwas need to have that mental attitude and I can very much to relate to that feeling when it comes to competition. Its like concentrating ur mind to a rock which only purpose is to crush ur opponent.
On November 12 2007 15:52 samso.. wrote: All bonjwas were born in November...
Why?
Because with the exception of Savior, they are all Scorpio. Scorpios are better than anyone at anything, by definition. Why? Because they're Scorpio.
I'm a Scorpio, that's how I know.
I'm a scorpio too. .
I know this may sound like superstition, but in fact it's the european zodiac. It really works. I checked it in my life, applied it to the persons I know and IT WORKED.
On January 05 2006 13:06 iamke55 wrote: It's official. IPXZerg is the next Nada/Oov, and will win 3 MBCgame starleagues in a row, followed by one OGN, then get owned hard by some old-school player and just be a top 4 guy who does well but always loses when it matters.
He got it pretty much all right except being owned by a old-school player.
On January 10 2006 19:06 Hot_Bid wrote: I predict the next bonjwa's reign will end 0-3 in his best matchup in the finals of a tournament everyone expects him to win. Then he will lose in the next league to a Terran who will perform a ridiculously embarrassing ceremony. Then he will focus on WCG and 1-2 to a foreigner, I'm guessing probably a Chinese player since there are so many of them. Then he will come back to Korea and have a chance to redeem himself but will lose to a young player named Mind. Then a site administrator will create a thread about the eerily similar career paths of the various bonjwas, and I, Hot_Bid, will quote this very post exactly 674 days from now, in that thread, as evidence of my completely average predictive abilities.
On October 28 2007 23:12 PoP wrote: Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D NaDa: 1984-11-20 Oov: 1983-11-05 sAviOr: 1987-11-23 Bisu: 1989-11-03 For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
i think it would be (1/12)^4, and if it is that is a 1/20736 chance which is 0.0048%
On October 28 2007 23:12 PoP wrote: Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D NaDa: 1984-11-20 Oov: 1983-11-05 sAviOr: 1987-11-23 Bisu: 1989-11-03 For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
i think it would be (1/12)^4, and if it is that is a 1/20736 chance which is 0.0048%
no it would actually be 12^(-3) or 1/12^(3) because the first person is already born in the same month as the first person
oh what youre saying is that the chance that the next three are of the same month as the first but what i was thiking is that if you picked four of them randomly then thats the chance, but youre right
On November 15 2007 14:04 SigrUn wrote: Hehe, I found this a thread about Savior vs Oov.
On January 05 2006 13:06 iamke55 wrote: It's official. IPXZerg is the next Nada/Oov, and will win 3 MBCgame starleagues in a row, followed by one OGN, then get owned hard by some old-school player and just be a top 4 guy who does well but always loses when it matters.
He got it pretty much all right except being owned by a old-school player.
On November 15 2007 16:18 We Are Here wrote: oh what youre saying is that the chance that the next three are of the same month as the first but what i was thiking is that if you picked four of them randomly then thats the chance, but youre right
Even if you pick four of them randomly it'd be 1/12^3, because there are 12 months so the birthmonth of the first one you take shouldn't matter, ie he has 100% chances to be born the month he's born in.
Nada is the first Bonjwa and he got 3 MSL and ended up with 3 OSL Oov owns Nada and he's got 2 OSL titles Savior owns oov and he has 1 OSL title Bisu owns Savior and so... I think Bisu really is gonna win his third MSL but he will never achieve the victory at OSL...
I reckon also players need to have played for atleast 2 years before they are capable of being bonjwa.
Bisu had his first 1v1 in SKY 2005 PL R2 Savior had his first 1v1 in a MBC Teamleague in 2004 (I think?) Oov has his first 1v1 in the KTF Ever Cup in 2003 (I think) Nada had his first 1v1 somewhere in 2002.
So the next Bonjwa will have to be debuted in 2006.
On November 16 2007 15:02 GTR-2-Go wrote: I reckon also players need to have played for atleast 2 years before they are capable of being bonjwa.
Bisu had his first 1v1 in SKY 2005 PL R2 Savior had his first 1v1 in a MBC Teamleague in 2004 (I think?) Oov has his first 1v1 in the KTF Ever Cup in 2003 (I think) Nada had his first 1v1 somewhere in 2002.
So the next Bonjwa will have to be debuted in 2006.
Hmm, Nada did play his first official 1v1 in 2002 but the first MSL he won started 2 months later. Same for Oov who had his first 1v1 in 2003. UZOO started started 5 months later. Both Savior and Bisu had been around for about one year and a half though.
So I don't think it's a 'constant', but if there's gonna be a new one it's indeed not impossible that we already know him.
On November 16 2007 14:55 SeBASTa wrote: here's my opinion:
Nada is the first Bonjwa and he got 3 MSL and ended up with 3 OSL Oov owns Nada and he's got 2 OSL titles Savior owns oov and he has 1 OSL title Bisu owns Savior and so... I think Bisu really is gonna win his third MSL but he will never achieve the victory at OSL...
I hope I am right
You are not.
First bonjwa? Grrr, perhaps (though debatable). Boxer was definitely bonjwa and he came before Nada.
On November 16 2007 14:55 SeBASTa wrote: here's my opinion:
Nada is the first Bonjwa and he got 3 MSL and ended up with 3 OSL Oov owns Nada and he's got 2 OSL titles Savior owns oov and he has 1 OSL title Bisu owns Savior and so... I think Bisu really is gonna win his third MSL but he will never achieve the victory at OSL...
I hope I am right
You are not.
First bonjwa? Grrr, perhaps (though debatable). Boxer was definitely bonjwa and he came before Nada.
oh no, the only word that can describe SlayerS_'BoxeR' is HIM. Because he didn't get jinxed by any of the Bonjwas Grrrr...? lol?
On November 16 2007 14:55 SeBASTa wrote: here's my opinion:
Nada is the first Bonjwa and he got 3 MSL and ended up with 3 OSL Oov owns Nada and he's got 2 OSL titles Savior owns oov and he has 1 OSL title Bisu owns Savior and so... I think Bisu really is gonna win his third MSL but he will never achieve the victory at OSL...
I hope I am right
You are not.
First bonjwa? Grrr, perhaps (though debatable). Boxer was definitely bonjwa and he came before Nada.
i think you need to win 3 msls in a row? unless im mistaken
On November 16 2007 14:55 SeBASTa wrote: here's my opinion:
Nada is the first Bonjwa and he got 3 MSL and ended up with 3 OSL Oov owns Nada and he's got 2 OSL titles Savior owns oov and he has 1 OSL title Bisu owns Savior and so... I think Bisu really is gonna win his third MSL but he will never achieve the victory at OSL...
I hope I am right
You are not.
First bonjwa? Grrr, perhaps (though debatable). Boxer was definitely bonjwa and he came before Nada.
i think you need to win 3 msls in a row? unless im mistaken
not absolutely, savior 3 out of 4 MSL, he lost to Chojja in his second shot
yea i remember that osl, oov looked sad to have won it. i think he had even said that he wanted his 'master' to win it, and that marine rush was crazy :O
Until you can demonstrate to me in-depth knowledge of the history of the pro scene in Korea beyond the ability to regurgitate some superficial factoids that you happened across while surfing for vods, I suggest you keep your hopelessly sophomoric opinions to yourself.
Until you can demonstrate to me in-depth knowledge of the history of the pro scene in Korea beyond the ability to regurgitate some superficial factoids that you happened across while surfing for vods, I suggest you keep your hopelessly sophomoric opinions to yourself.
I might not be capable of debating with you, but i wont take your advice
Not sure if he followed progaming during grr's time. I know i didnt but i know he was really good in his prime. Even my friends who casually or dont follow progaming when they think of foreign progamers only one names sticks out. Guillaume(think thats how you spell his name right?)
he's good he was probably the best back then. but I doubt his qualification for being consider as a bonjwa.
But, the only reason I lol@him is, he seemed not concerned when he was going downwards. He fell, not because of his capability, but he did not pay much attention to this game any more. In this regards, Guillaume Patry is not in the same calibre with Lim yo-hwan or any successors
dominating everyone else and never losing when it matters over a certain span of time I think it's hard to find a accurate definition for a figure like this
bonjwa is bonjwa only because most of the people recognize him/her as a bonjwa
I just doubt most of the people will recognize Grrrr... as one
On November 16 2007 21:18 SeBASTa wrote: he's good he was probably the best back then. but I doubt his qualification for being consider as a bonjwa.
But, the only reason I lol@him is, he seemed not concerned when he was going downwards. He fell, not because of his capability, but he did not pay much attention to this game any more. In this regards, Guillaume Patry is not in the same calibre with Lim yo-hwan or any successors
same with all the other bonjwas they started getting fame and dominating then they started going out way more banging fan girls etc buying luxury items and they all went down hill
look at savior now, he bought a car lOL WHY DOES HE NEED A CAR
On November 16 2007 21:18 SeBASTa wrote: he's good he was probably the best back then. but I doubt his qualification for being consider as a bonjwa.
But, the only reason I lol@him is, he seemed not concerned when he was going downwards. He fell, not because of his capability, but he did not pay much attention to this game any more. In this regards, Guillaume Patry is not in the same calibre with Lim yo-hwan or any successors
same with all the other bonjwas they started getting fame and dominating then they started going out way more banging fan girls etc buying luxury items and they all went down hill
look at savior now, he bought a car lOL WHY DOES HE NEED A CAR
They DO concern about their performance they DID NOT disappear even after their completion of becoming a bonjwa
Those who are amazed that these excellent SC players all have a birthday in November shouldn't be. It's an interesting fact, but the calculations people are doing here are off by a lot.
For example, in a group of just seven random people, it is more likely than not that two of them will have a birthday within a week of each other. Also, in a group of 23 people there's a 50% probability that one pair will share the same birthday.
Look up the "birthday problem" or "birthday paradox" to see why. Wikipedia has a nice article on it.
Predictions update: 1. Bisu will win the next MSL. 2. Bisu will not win the current OSL. 3. However, Bisu will grab the OSL following the next MSL's finals. 4. In two MSL, another new bonjwa will take over and win his first starleague ever.
On November 17 2007 19:53 PoP wrote: Predictions update: 1. Bisu will win the next MSL. 2. Bisu will not win the current OSL. 3. However, Bisu will grab the OSL following the next MSL's finals. 4. In two MSL, another new bonjwa will take over and win his first starleague ever.
Still believing.
I think al this may be happening sooner than expected.
Mind just won the first starleague he participated in and Bisu looks like he has a good shot at the OSL title with the way the bracket currently looks.
On November 17 2007 19:53 PoP wrote: Predictions update: 1. Bisu will win the next MSL. 2. Bisu will not win the current OSL. 3. However, Bisu will grab the OSL following the next MSL's finals. 4. In two MSL, another new bonjwa will take over and win his first starleague ever.
Still believing.
Yeah... I'm gonna have to disagree.
And though it hurts me to say this (cus I'm a big July fan), but Bisu's more like July when he made his zvt statement beating the unstoppable oov. Bisu is only really dominate (in the sense of the word itself, and that of bonjwa) in PvZ, which still needs to stand the test of time. His PvP/PvT are all good, but they're not, what's the word.... "transcendental," like a bowjwa ought to be.
He'll be remembered for bringing down Savior just like when July brought down OOv, as well as being the champ of many other starleagues I'm sure, but he's not a bonjwa.
On November 17 2007 19:53 PoP wrote: Predictions update: 1. Bisu will win the next MSL. 2. Bisu will not win the current OSL. 3. However, Bisu will grab the OSL following the next MSL's finals. 4. In two MSL, another new bonjwa will take over and win his first starleague ever.
Still believing.
Yeah... I'm gonna have to disagree.
And though it hurts me to say this (cus I'm a big July fan), but Bisu's more like July when he made his zvt statement beating the unstoppable oov. Bisu is only really dominate (in the sense of the word itself, and that of bonjwa) in PvZ, which still needs to stand the test of time. His PvP/PvT are all good, but they're not, what's the word.... "transcendental," like a bowjwa ought to be.
He'll be remembered for bringing down Savior just like when July brought down OOv, as well as being the champ of many other starleagues I'm sure, but he's not a bonjwa.
Well even if things go according to this scenario Bisu will be considered above July if no toss bonjwa arise after him.
On November 17 2007 20:41 .dragoon wrote: He'll be remembered for bringing down Savior just like when July brought down OOv, as well as being the champ of many other starleagues I'm sure, but he's not a bonjwa.
2 MSL wins and a MSL final out of 3 MSLs, that's pretty much exactly the path Savior took so far, so I would definitely not rule him out just yet.
When Savior got crushed by Chojja 3-1 people were saying his kindof average ZvZ wouldn't allow him to be successful for too long, yet he managed to improve it a lot and even kicked Chojja out of the following MSL.
Bisu has two godly matchups, PvZ and PvP, and a more inconsistent one-- just like Savior at the time. I still believe he has what it takes to follow the same path.
On November 17 2007 20:57 Silent_Marine wrote: What does Bonjwa stand for ? T___T
utterly dominant player. There is no precise sense for it though which allows much flaming.
At the highest level of competition, the unbalance is not of the game but inside the player himself.
Years ago terran domination was such that TvZ was considered to be imbalanced, the timing and the micro required was beyond the ability of those playing at the time. Then lo and behold, a micro-oriented player with godly timing appeared and showed everyone the way to a consistent ZvT streak.
No one person can be everything to everyone. Someone better will always appear. Those who manage to get closest who last the longest are called bonjwa.
On November 17 2007 20:41 .dragoon wrote: He'll be remembered for bringing down Savior just like when July brought down OOv, as well as being the champ of many other starleagues I'm sure, but he's not a bonjwa.
2 MSL wins and a MSL final out of 3 MSLs, that's pretty much exactly the path Savior took so far, so I would definitely not rule him out just yet.
When Savior got crushed by Chojja 3-1 people were saying his kindof average ZvZ wouldn't allow him to be successful for too long, yet he managed to improve it a lot and even kicked Chojja out of the following MSL.
Bisu has two godly matchups, PvZ and PvP, and a more inconsistent one-- just like Savior at the time. I still believe he has what it takes to follow the same path.
In accolades, yes, but in the quality of the gameplaying itself you can see that Bisu's one true MU is PvZ in which he appears to be untouchable, he appears bonjwa.
But that's not all. Other protosses seem to have an issue with copying his build and making it effective. If you remember what we talked about earlier in the thread, OOv made his macro-centric play a trend, so did Savior and his 3gas defiler play. Why can't current protoss imitate Bisu?
Finally, a mirror MU is different from a non-mirror. Every single bonjwa has a relatively weak mirror compare to their non-mirrors where the factor of luck is that much higher. You could call that a sign as well if you want to stretch it (like the birth month thing).
Bisu is good, really good. I hope his presence in progaming will someday lead a period of true protoss domination, where a protoss user will be god. It's hard to imagine a protoss better than Bisu at this moment, I know that. The person doesn't know it yet himself either, but he's out there.
On November 17 2007 21:37 .dragoon wrote: In accolades, yes, but in the quality of the gameplaying itself you can see that Bisu's one true MU is PvZ in which he appears to be untouchable, he appears bonjwa.
Well, If you look at Savior's stats up to when he lost to Chojja in CYON MSL finals, you'll notice that his only scary matchup at the time (stats-wise, at least), was ZvT (21-11, 66% win). His ZvP was very good (15-9, 62%) but far from the level he reached afterwards (man, he had half the ZvP losses he has right now). As for his ZvZ (18-17, 51%), it was no more than average.
Bisu is: - even more impressive in his dominant matchup (PvZ, 28-12, 70%) than Savior's at the time (66%) ; - overall better in his "secondary" matchups as well (58% average, to 55% average).
On top of that, Bisu is playing OSLs at the same time. Savior didn't qualify for one before actually getting his 3 MSL belts.
Don't get me wrong, I know those are just stats/facts. You have the right to think that Savior was overall scarier in his actual play, regardless of win ratios. But you can't deny that he also got a lot better, starleague after starleague. I'm fairly confident Bisu hasn't reached his best level yet.
Nice move, slipping in the word "facts". I don't make it a habit of including stats cus it's hard to argue stats of different MUs. Also Bisu has played in 3 MSL finals, that should pull Savior's stats up to 7/16/06 ending with his Pringles 1 victory in order to compare them fairly (66% ZvT 55% ZvZ 67% ZvP). And I don't think because Savior got better = Bisu is going to. There's no casual relationship there. Bisu may very well get better - when he gets better.
Like I said, Savior lost a mirror matchup. Bisu lost in a PvT, which is inexcusable. Terran is the mainstay of starcraft, outnumbering the other races 2:1. vT games will always outnumber other MUs. Bisu better get a move on getting better at it. In fact when comparing stats, ZvT should be compared to PvT, not dominant to dominant.
Some reasons are hardly worth mentioning, like "Bisu is playing OSLs at the same time." Savior played OSL/MSL at the same time, gold for OSL, silver for MSL. Stork got a bronze for OSL and silver for MSL. By that train Bisu better get at least a bronze in this OSL to match Stork, gold if he wants to match Savior.
But the most important thing is still the play Bisu created. To be bonjwa he better be influencial. Ps better start PvZ winning trend or he's not gonna be bonjwa. The more others imitate him, the more they win, the more bonjwa protects his stay at the top.
Hehe this whole speculative convo is overreaching. When OSL quarterfinal rolls around we'll know if he can take the pumped-up Savior.
-ps PoP can you put those youtube vids in spoilers? Kinda hard to read the OP.
On November 18 2007 04:12 .dragoon wrote: Nice move, slipping in the word "facts". I don't make it a habit of including stats cus it's hard to argue stats of different MUs. Also Bisu has played in 3 MSL finals, that should pull Savior's stats up to 7/16/06 ending with his Pringles 1 victory in order to compare them fairly (66% ZvT 55% ZvZ 67% ZvP). And I don't think because Savior got better = Bisu is going to. There's no casual relationship there. Bisu may very well get better - when he gets better.
Well, my point was to compare them right after they lost their respective MSL, when people may have doubted their ability to come back and win again-- but your comparison is indeed probably more fair.
And I'm not implying Bisu will get better (I do think he will, though). I'm merely pointing out that (imho) Savior, like all the previous bonjwas, didn't reach his best level immediately, but rather progressively. I believe the same process could apply to Bisu as well, but again, time only will tell.
Like I said, Savior lost a mirror matchup. Bisu lost in a PvT, which is inexcusable. Terran is the mainstay of starcraft, outnumbering the other races 2:1. vT games will always outnumber other MUs. Bisu better get a move on getting better at it. In fact when comparing stats, ZvT should be compared to PvT, not dominant to dominant.
I don't really think Bisu's PvT is as bad as it looked today (because let's be honest, although Mind's play was flawless, Bisu's decisions and micro were subpar). Neither did I think Savior was as bad at ZvZ as it looked during that finals vs Chojja. Neither did I think Nada had a problem with TvP when he got newb-raped by Nal_rA.
And I still fail to see how a mirror is any different. It's just a matchup. Players can be as dominant in mirrors (Chojja's ZvZ a while ago, Reach's PvP at some point, FBH's TvT before jinxing himself, etc) as they can in other matchups.
You've got a point on that vT-games-outnumbering-the-rest part though. Didn't even think about it that way.
We'll all agree in any case that Bisu will have to become more consistent at PvT if he's planning to follow his predecessors' steps.
Some reasons are hardly worth mentioning, like "Bisu is playing OSLs at the same time." Savior played OSL/MSL at the same time, gold for OSL, silver for MSL. Stork got a bronze for OSL and silver for MSL. By that train Bisu better get at least a bronze in this OSL to match Stork, gold if he wants to match Savior.
But Savior didn't have to care about OSL while he was owning up the MSL. Bisu had to split his focus this season, although in this particular case it probably didn't have too much of an effect, as he only had PvT's to play on both starleagues lately.
I'm not trying to find him excuses though. I just believe that, so far, he's doing just as good as the former bonjwas, at the very least.
But the most important thing is still the play Bisu created. To be bonjwa he better be influencial. Ps better start PvZ winning trend or he's not gonna be bonjwa. The more others imitate him, the more they win, the more bonjwa protects his stay at the top.
I don't know if he started a "trend" or not, but lately I noticed there's been a lot more PvZ wins than a while ago. Maybe I'm dreaming, so I'll try to gather some stats from the TLPD database to get a better clue.
I'm not sure I'm getting your point though. How would generating a trend help him stay at the top? It's not like he needs other Protosses to kick out the Zergs for him.
-ps PoP can you put those youtube vids in spoilers? Kinda hard to read the OP.
I'm not sure I'm getting your point though. How would generating a trend help him stay at the top?
It wouldn't (quite the opposite, actually, as it lets people gain more experience vs his playing style). But what I think is the point is that it would mark him as an "era-defining player", which is what I think bonjwa truly means (3-time MSL champ + OSL win + subsequent slump is not really an interesting definition, just an interesting and fun trend to note).
If Bisu's playing style, especially his PvZ style, becomes standard then it will mark a whole new era in Starcraft play.
Also to whoever said mirror matchups are about luck, thats not true, its just applied to ZvZ because of the build order uncertainty and the way the game can change on a dime, as well as the fact that ZvZ is just really hard to understand even at a pro level, which leads to lower winning consistency. Even then you have ZvZ dominant players like Chojja who win because they have a deep understanding of the matchup and the necessary skills to play very low econ zerg. PvP isn't anymore luck based than PvZ.
Mind, silly. No.. seriously, he has shown he's a damn good player, but it's not always the next bonjwa that knocks out the current.
I don't think that Bisu would have to do the EXACT same sequence of wins or whatever to really count. Maybe he only gets 2 MSLs and an OSL (probably this season) and then falls from grace.
In a general sense it's more like a trend of winning a lot and then falling out.. so in that sense maybe this is the end for Bisu.
BUT... I don't think so. There's no sign that Bisu is slipping in a general sense. Iris somehow managed to 3:0 Stork last season even though Stork should have owned him. It happens sometimes. 67% winning means you still lose a third of your games.
Anyway, I think that as someone else was saying, the more important thing is yeah, when a player comes in with something new and revolutionizes play. Bisu hasn't exactly changed things majorly, except he has brought a new style of PvZ to the game, and with it forced a new style of ZvP which is currently rebalancing things as players get used to it.
In the sense that a bonjwa represents an era, Bisu is definitely one. For a time he was and still mostly is THE player to beat.
On November 17 2007 08:31 marshmallow wrote: Those who are amazed that these excellent SC players all have a birthday in November shouldn't be. It's an interesting fact, but the calculations people are doing here are off by a lot.
For example, in a group of just seven random people, it is more likely than not that two of them will have a birthday within a week of each other. Also, in a group of 23 people there's a 50% probability that one pair will share the same birthday.
Look up the "birthday problem" or "birthday paradox" to see why. Wikipedia has a nice article on it.
I had the opportunity to listen to a presentation about that @ class, one of my old classmates did it. It's pretty interesting
On December 01 2007 01:02 PoP wrote: Update: Bisu just further demonstrated his bonjwa-ness by, again, convincingly beating Savior (Savior vs Bisu stats updated on OP).
He's still supposed not to win this OSL, though... but who knows.
Yes considering the level he can still lose. But DAMN I hope he will take it. Historical patterns are made to be wrong in the future.
On December 02 2007 03:29 trollbone wrote: i think only STORK or JAEDONG (if Stork beat bisu) has a shot to win this OSL, maybe the prediction will be not true......
Hehe Jaedong stands no chance Stork has a chance of beating bisu Although I have this feeling that Upmagic will pull off upsets and win this OSL
Well i guess it's just natural that a new comer who's kinda better beat the lastest top player. it's kinda normal... if the same player was going to dominate progaming until progaming ends well... that wouldn't be much fun for us and even for the progamers -_-!
Upmagic winning the OSL would be great; he's been around for quite some time and has shown tremendous creativity in the past. I swear Savior should have won I don't think adaption can change bisu's pvz godlyness.
On December 01 2007 01:02 PoP wrote: Update: Bisu just further demonstrated his bonjwa-ness by, again, convincingly beating Savior (Savior vs Bisu stats updated on OP).
As a hard-core saviour fan, I think you are doing Saviour a disservice.
Im going to say this straight up; in my opinion Saviour was beaten by the maps not Bisu. Game one was a convincing win for Saviour
Game two Saviour had it in the bag, his drop completely destroyed Bisus expansion and at the same time Bisus main entrance lost its reaver and both cannons. Saviour was in his base and all over him when suddenly, instead of a stream of hydras to finish the game, the reinforcements dried up. Why ? He was mining from FOUR bases compared to Bisu's ONE.
Because of the way the main and northern expansion were seperated by a short distance for Bisus' corsairs, but the walls forced Saviours' hydras to run about 3 times as far, making it almost impossible to guard his spawning overlords. I still think Saviour should have put up two spore colonies to stop Bisu darting freeing between the two bases, but ultimately Saviour fell foul to the same terrain issus that favour Toss over Terran.
Game three Saviour was beaten by the spawn points, they were as far apart as it is possible to be, by the time saviour could even get to Bisus base he had something like 6 cannons up. Even then Saviour was dominating Bisu until, by luck, Bisu forced saviour to abort a drop in his main which was completely defenceless when his corsairs luckily went past his overlords.
Did Saviour play perfectly ? Hell no, but he was on the same level as Bisu in all 3 games, and ultimately was defeated by the maps because in a match which is so finely balanced, these things play in.
On December 02 2007 04:12 tKd_ wrote: Upmagic winning the OSL would be great; he's been around for quite some time and has shown tremendous creativity in the past. I swear Savior should have won I don't think adaption can change bisu's pvz godlyness.
Bisu forced saviour to abort a drop in his main which was completely defenceless when his corsairs luckily went past his overlords.
If you are calling this part of the game luck you are foolish. Of course Bisu knows the exact drop timing.
Bisu was scouting for any Saviour expansions he had not found and discovered the drop coming from a base he had not previously scouted. That is luck.
No, it's skill. YEAH OKAY AFTER A HUNDRED THOUSAND PVZ PRACTICE GAMES AGAINST TOP ZERG PLAYERS HE'S GOING TO JUST NORMALLY DIE TO SOME RETARDED STANDARD DROP UNLESS HE LUCKILY SCOUTS IT WITH CORSAIRS.
Bisu forced saviour to abort a drop in his main which was completely defenceless when his corsairs luckily went past his overlords.
If you are calling this part of the game luck you are foolish. Of course Bisu knows the exact drop timing.
Bisu was scouting for any Saviour expansions he had not found and discovered the drop coming from a base he had not previously scouted. That is luck.
No, it's skill. YEAH OKAY AFTER A HUNDRED THOUSAND PVZ PRACTICE GAMES AGAINST TOP ZERG PLAYERS HE'S GOING TO JUST NORMALLY DIE TO SOME RETARDED STANDARD DROP UNLESS HE LUCKILY SCOUTS IT WITH CORSAIRS.
ur right bisu gets lucky every time a zerg tries to drop on him he scouts it with corsairs!! gorush and savior would've won if he weren't so lucky!
Wraithlin, when you scout a drop with sairs, it is luck. When Bisu does it, it is skill. No protoss on earth has ever come close to having the timing in PvZ that Bisu does.
You just read the story through using all the first half of the parenthesis for Nada's story, then again reading all the second half of the parenthesis for iloveoov's story and they amazingly match up.
Some of the bonjwa comparisons I made then still hold for Savior and Bisu as well as with Nada and Iloveoov, but every time a new bonjwa comes the similarities will be fewer. Here is a general bonjwa story that holds for everyone so far:
1. Win the MBC league as an unknown, on the way defeating the most dominant Zerg player at the time in 3 games in a row. Savior didn't have to follow this trend because he WAS the dominant Zerg player, but the other 3 bonjwas(all royal roaders of MBC) have all taken 3 consecutive games against the best Zerg in the world at the time during the first MBC league win.
2. Considered the best in the world at all 3 of their matchups at some point in time, hence the dominance.
3. They all dominated the MSL after their first win and won the MBC league twice after (not sure about Bisu yet), but somehow didn't focus on or win the OSL until the third and last MBC title was theirs. (again, not sure about Bisu yet)
4. After finally won the OSL, meaning they had nothing left to prove, their first major wtf moment came when they all got promptly annihilated 3-0 by a Protoss player in the MSL. (yet again, not sure about Bisu yet) In the very next MBC league, they were expected to win again, but then they lost anyways even though they had the luck of not playing that Protoss player again.
5. 3 of them had ironic matchup weakness. Iloveoov's downfall was TvZ, savior's was ZvP, and Bisu's potential downfall against Mind was PvT. Ironic because these have been historically considered the "easy" matchups in the game, and for oov and savior their downfall happened for their most dominant matchup.
6. In contrast, all of them were ridiculously good at their historically "hard" matchup. In fact, they were so good at it that TvP, PvZ, and ZvT are no longer considered "hard" matchups today. The strategy evolution of playing these happened mostly due to these guys showing the rest of the world how to dominate the "hard" matchup.
7. All have been heavy favorites against the previous bonjwa.
On October 28 2007 23:12 PoP wrote: Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D NaDa: 1984-11-20 Oov: 1983-11-05 sAviOr: 1987-11-23 Bisu: 1989-11-03 For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
On November 03 2007 03:29 Last Romantic wrote: Bloody YellOw, Oct 31 birthday...
I notice all the flamers ignore my comments on game 2 ...
Bisu and saviour are playing on an insane level that I willnever fully comprehend, but here is the deal, NEITHER WILL YOU, and believe it or not there is luck in any competition (unless you play chess or Go). Professional footballers get lucky, International poker players get lucky,and sometimes Starcraft players get lucky. Want the most obvious proof; starting positions are random (or are you going to claim Bisu has some gosu skill that lets him determine where players will spawn?).
That does not detract from Bisus play, but to make like he floored Saviour effortless is a massive distortion of the truth. The truth is Saviour had him rocking in both games 2 and 3, and particularly in game 2 Saviour was disadvantaged by the map in my opinion.
On November 17 2007 08:31 marshmallow wrote: Those who are amazed that these excellent SC players all have a birthday in November shouldn't be. It's an interesting fact, but the calculations people are doing here are off by a lot.
For example, in a group of just seven random people, it is more likely than not that two of them will have a birthday within a week of each other. Also, in a group of 23 people there's a 50% probability that one pair will share the same birthday.
Look up the "birthday problem" or "birthday paradox" to see why. Wikipedia has a nice article on it.
Erm, no. The problems and probabilities are entirely different. In a group of 23 people there being a single pair having the same birthday is entirely different for 5-6 people, the only people in the group, to all have the same month birthday. The probability IS very low.
On November 17 2007 08:31 marshmallow wrote: Those who are amazed that these excellent SC players all have a birthday in November shouldn't be. It's an interesting fact, but the calculations people are doing here are off by a lot.
For example, in a group of just seven random people, it is more likely than not that two of them will have a birthday within a week of each other. Also, in a group of 23 people there's a 50% probability that one pair will share the same birthday.
Look up the "birthday problem" or "birthday paradox" to see why. Wikipedia has a nice article on it.
Erm, no. The problems and probabilities are entirely different. In a group of 23 people there being a single pair having the same birthday is entirely different for 5-6 people, the only people in the group, to all have the same month birthday. The probability IS very low.
If Korean school years are like the UK then a november birthday would place them at the top of their age range for a given school grade. That may go someway to explaining the strange conincidence, there may be other cultural reasons that distort the figures; for instance Koreans may prefer to have children in November because it is considered lucky. If there are youth leagues these players may have been the oldest in their age category giving them anatural advantage etc.etc.
On December 02 2007 07:23 Wraithlin wrote: I notice all the flamers ignore my comments on game 2 ...
Bisu and saviour are playing on an insane level that I willnever fully comprehend, but here is the deal, NEITHER WILL YOU, and believe it or not there is luck in any competition (unless you play chess or Go). Professional footballers get lucky, International poker players get lucky,and sometimes Starcraft players get lucky. Want the most obvious proof; starting positions are random (or are you going to claim Bisu has some gosu skill that lets him determine where players will spawn?).
That does not detract from Bisus play, but to make like he floored Saviour effortless is a massive distortion of the truth. The truth is Saviour had him rocking in both games 2 and 3, and particularly in game 2 Saviour was disadvantaged by the map in my opinion.
its savior ffs, not savioUr... god. and wtf is wrong with ur retarded comparisons? starting pos. and drop-timing.
.. Saviour was in his base and all over him when suddenly, instead of a stream of hydras to finish the game, the reinforcements dried up. Why ? He was mining from FOUR bases compared to Bisu's ONE...
no. 3drones at bottom right expo, 0 drones at mid right expo. he had enough gas but no minerals. and he lost many, many lord to cors. its not like savior had 4:1 expo advantage, he had 4 hatcheries but his drone count was never that strong as you claim it was.
Bisu and saviour are playing on an insane level that I willnever fully comprehend, but here is the deal, NEITHER WILL YOU
but it seems ur knowledge is more limited than ours. go watch the vods again.
Except if you read my post (which you clearly didnt) I said that Savior was unlucky because their starting positions were as far away as was possible on that map, which in turn made making a sucessful drop that much harder. If you magically think Bisu knew there was a drop coming from a base he had not even scouted, then that is what you believe Im not going to attack you the way you attack me. Personally I think Bisu was scouting for expansions and spotted the incoming drop, if it had been second alter he wouldnt have know it was coming.
And you still havent answered my comments on game 2.
[e] I could believe Bisu was scouting for Saviours overlords, knowing they were not in his main, and that there were certain areas where Savior was most likely to be hiding them but I dont believe he was explictally looking for a drop.
[ee] Yes, Bisu did an amazing job of killing overlords to stem Saviours flow of reinforcements into his open base after the drop and front attack, I just believe this was made alot easier because of themap terrain allowing him to fly a short route between Saviors main and his expansion just short, while they hydras had to run a long route. I am in no way saying bisu did not play an amazing game, only that they were very very closely matched and that small advantages to bisu from the maps ended up tiping that balance. The post I first replied to implies Bisu wiped the floor with saviour effortlessly.
On December 02 2007 08:01 Wraithlin wrote: Except if you read my post (which you clearly didnt) I said that Savior was unlucky because their starting positions were as far away as was possible on that map, which in turn made making a sucessful drop that much harder. If you magically think Bisu knew there was a drop coming from a base he had not even scouted, then that is what you believe Im not going to attack you the way you attack me. Personally I think Bisu was scouting for expansions and spotted the incoming drop, if it had been second alter he wouldnt have know it was coming.
And you still havent answered my comments on game 2.
[e] I could believe Bisu was scouting for Saviours overlords, knowing they were not in his main, and that there were certain areas where Savior was most likely to be hiding them but I dont believe he was explictally looking for a drop.
Strengths of Corsair build:
1.) Scouting
2.) Air Control
Both of these factor directly into preventing drops. It wasn't that Bisu was lucky in preventing a drop. Its Savior that was lucky to have managed to pull a successful drop all series at all.
On December 02 2007 08:01 Wraithlin wrote: The post I first replied to implies Bisu wiped the floor with saviour effortlessly.
I suppose you mean my post, in which case you totally misread what I said. There's a slight difference between "convincing" and "effortless", isn't there?
On December 02 2007 08:01 Wraithlin wrote: The post I first replied to implies Bisu wiped the floor with saviour effortlessly.
I suppose you mean my post, in which case you totally misread what I said. There's a slight difference between "convincing" and "effortless", isn't there?
That becomes a matter of debating semantics, which is pointless. I am willing to conceede that I saw a different game to everyone else and Bisu was never pushed; I was just posting my opinions. I was devastated to see Savior lose that series, and only hope that he will continue to evolve his game and stay competative against Bisu (and Mind ?).
On November 17 2007 08:31 marshmallow wrote: Those who are amazed that these excellent SC players all have a birthday in November shouldn't be. It's an interesting fact, but the calculations people are doing here are off by a lot.
For example, in a group of just seven random people, it is more likely than not that two of them will have a birthday within a week of each other. Also, in a group of 23 people there's a 50% probability that one pair will share the same birthday.
Look up the "birthday problem" or "birthday paradox" to see why. Wikipedia has a nice article on it.
Erm, no. The problems and probabilities are entirely different. In a group of 23 people there being a single pair having the same birthday is entirely different for 5-6 people, the only people in the group, to all have the same month birthday. The probability IS very low.
If Korean school years are like the UK then a november birthday would place them at the top of their age range for a given school grade. That may go someway to explaining the strange conincidence, there may be other cultural reasons that distort the figures; for instance Koreans may prefer to have children in November because it is considered lucky. If there are youth leagues these players may have been the oldest in their age category giving them anatural advantage etc.etc.
On December 02 2007 08:01 Wraithlin wrote: Except if you read my post (which you clearly didnt) I said that Savior was unlucky because their starting positions were as far away as was possible on that map, which in turn made making a sucessful drop that much harder. If you magically think Bisu knew there was a drop coming from a base he had not even scouted, then that is what you believe Im not going to attack you the way you attack me. Personally I think Bisu was scouting for expansions and spotted the incoming drop, if it had been second alter he wouldnt have know it was coming.
And you still havent answered my comments on game 2.
[e] I could believe Bisu was scouting for Saviours overlords, knowing they were not in his main, and that there were certain areas where Savior was most likely to be hiding them but I dont believe he was explictally looking for a drop.
[ee] Yes, Bisu did an amazing job of killing overlords to stem Saviours flow of reinforcements into his open base after the drop and front attack, I just believe this was made alot easier because of themap terrain allowing him to fly a short route between Saviors main and his expansion just short, while they hydras had to run a long route. I am in no way saying bisu did not play an amazing game, only that they were very very closely matched and that small advantages to bisu from the maps ended up tiping that balance. The post I first replied to implies Bisu wiped the floor with saviour effortlessly.
corsairs basically give you free map hack and will wipe everything out of the air, im quite surprised savior even got a drop-off with that many corsairs flying around and especially how well bisu was playing. i have never seen anyone multi-task so damn well and micro their corsairs so perfectly at the same time. dodging hydras, hunting overlords, tech scouting, checking for expos. etc etc. you may be underestimating the skill of the pros. they practice
quite
a
fair
bit
so i wouldn't be surprised at all if bisu knew from experience, judging from saviors army size, tech level, upgrades, level of aggression, that a drop was cookin.
there was this interview where stork said something like: "we were getting practice help from MBCgame and bisu helped me with my pvz. he told me exactly what sort of battles would break out on which maps, at what time in the game and which units would be involved, where on the map and how many units. when i played later on it happened exactly as he said. afterwards i asked him how he knew but he wouldn't tell me."
i dont know about you but i more or less stopped breathing for a bit when i read that.
ultimately we'll never know if it was luck or skill, but to stubbornly say that it was luck for sure is a little naive and underestimating.
Anyway, with Bisu getting knocked out of the OSL, he is still following the Bonjwa road, is he not? Following the trend, he would have been knocked out of this OSL because he didn't win his 3rd MSL yet, which came true.
On December 02 2007 08:01 Wraithlin wrote: Except if you read my post (which you clearly didnt) I said that Savior was unlucky because their starting positions were as far away as was possible on that map, which in turn made making a sucessful drop that much harder. If you magically think Bisu knew there was a drop coming from a base he had not even scouted, then that is what you believe Im not going to attack you the way you attack me. Personally I think Bisu was scouting for expansions and spotted the incoming drop, if it had been second alter he wouldnt have know it was coming.
And you still havent answered my comments on game 2.
[e] I could believe Bisu was scouting for Saviours overlords, knowing they were not in his main, and that there were certain areas where Savior was most likely to be hiding them but I dont believe he was explictally looking for a drop.
[ee] Yes, Bisu did an amazing job of killing overlords to stem Saviours flow of reinforcements into his open base after the drop and front attack, I just believe this was made alot easier because of themap terrain allowing him to fly a short route between Saviors main and his expansion just short, while they hydras had to run a long route. I am in no way saying bisu did not play an amazing game, only that they were very very closely matched and that small advantages to bisu from the maps ended up tiping that balance. The post I first replied to implies Bisu wiped the floor with saviour effortlessly.
there was this interview where stork said something like: "we were getting practice help from MBCgame and bisu helped me with my pvz. he told me exactly what sort of battles would break out on which maps, at what time in the game and which units would be involved, where on the map and how many units. when i played later on it happened exactly as he said. afterwards i asked him how he knew but he wouldn't tell me."
i dont know about you but i more or less stopped breathing for a bit when i read that.
ultimately we'll never know if it was luck or skill, but to stubbornly say that it was luck for sure is a little naive and underestimating.
I think it's safe to say that Bisu is really from the year 3011 and has designed a time travel device which allows him to play his opponent, review their bo and timing and then go back once again and re-play them with the exact knowledge of what sort of battles will break out, what time they'll take place and which units will be involved.
His hair style is a byproduct of wearing the time travel helmet.
Stork and Bisu reminds me of July and GoRush of the past. Two demi-gods of their race with vastly different styles. July with his flawless army management skills and acute sense of timing and GoRush with his inch perfect overall game management skills. Zerg fans used to say that if only the two would take each others' strengths we would see the perfection of the zerg race. Now days protoss fans are blessed with aruably the best PvT and PvP player ever, and the best PvZ player to grace the progaming scene. Not that their other match ups are subpar, but definately not of "bonjwa" level. Both players have quite some way to go to earn the ultimate title of "bonjwa", and I personally believe that neither will succeed in doing so.
Savior losing to Chojja was way different to Bisu losing to Mind and Stork in succession. Savior gained his reputation as a force to be reckoned with after his 7-0 domination of Oov (who was no longer bonjwa but was in irresistible form in TvZ just like Savior is in irresistible form in ZvP right now if we count Bisu out). He then upgraded his level of domination that gained him 2 MSLs, various minor tournament victories, a very respectable proleague record and capped it off with a dramatic win in the OSL. It's Savior's post-Cyon MSL performance that got him his "bonjwa" status.
Bisu, on the other hand, is already losing pace (he only won 2 matches out of his last 10 matches), after peaking (domination-wise) after his second MSL trophy. His level of domination of never at the level of previous "bonjwas", mainly due to his lackluster proleague record. Bisu does have a nice trophy count (OSL aside), but trophies alone won't get you the "bonjwa" status. Stork arguably outperformed Bisu this season, but his inexperience failed him at the crucial stages, and I don't think he'll be able to continue his hot streak long enough to get him the necessary amount of trophies.
You need to win it all when you're hot, Bisu got the trohpies, but he wasn't hot enough when he did. Stork was hot as hell (MSL finals, OSL semi-finals, proleague MVP and WCG representative) but ultimately failed in the two most important tournaments (in his best two match ups WTF?).
Some people called Bisu the 5th bonjwa, but there was too much arguments made against it. People said "lets wait and see if he rises his level of play, he's almost there", but he ultimately failed to overcome his limitations (PvT, frequent proleague losses, missing OSL title etc). He's still young, so maybe he'll come back even stronger from his recent slump, but I doubt it.
"Semi-bonjwas": Nal_Ra -> July -> Bisu (?)
The best players of their time at one point, but couldn't raise their level of domination to an unstoppable level. Most are starting to classify Bisu as a "semi-bonjwa", which is starting aggrevate a lot of protoss fans who were waiting for their first protoss "bonjwa".
really nice explanation letmelose but i think that bisu can upgrade his skills (to the next leeveelll !! ), we will have to wait the next MSL to see if the predictions will become true !!
In fact, when Savior was named IPXZERG (2 vowels, 5 consonants) he wasn't bonjwa, but once he changed his name he became bonjwa
So according to this, Flash has no chance. Jaedong misses by 1 letter.
Free, though, is a candidate, so is Anytime, so is Sea.
OMG OMG OMG great catch Hot_Bid (and no, clan tags don't count, LDO) I have the same birthday as oov and I obviously own at the vowels/consonants part (4 vs 3)
On November 17 2007 08:31 marshmallow wrote: Those who are amazed that these excellent SC players all have a birthday in November shouldn't be. It's an interesting fact, but the calculations people are doing here are off by a lot.
For example, in a group of just seven random people, it is more likely than not that two of them will have a birthday within a week of each other. Also, in a group of 23 people there's a 50% probability that one pair will share the same birthday.
Look up the "birthday problem" or "birthday paradox" to see why. Wikipedia has a nice article on it.
While the "all in November" thing is just for fun and wrong in so many ways if you take it seriously, you're wrong and the calculations are correct. Try to see how this differs from the birthday paradox.
IMHO bisu never attained the "bonjwa" status.. he was a strong player, yes, but he was never dominating everyone - he was defeated plenty of times during his "reign", including a few games by savior/Mind/Stork (i might add Stork has been competing for that Bonjwa status as well - perhaps the two protoss forces ended up canceling each other out, neither one of them becoming an official "bonjwa")
On January 09 2008 09:42 joohyunee wrote: IMHO bisu never attained the "bonjwa" status.. he was a strong player, yes, but he was never dominating everyone - he was defeated plenty of times during his "reign", including a few games by savior/Mind/Stork (i might add Stork has been competing for that Bonjwa status as well - perhaps the two protoss forces ended up canceling each other out, neither one of them becoming an official "bonjwa")
Shit if they can get together w/ stork's PvP PvT mechanics and Bisu's PvT and PvZ charms it'll be amazing. Why do protss have to... ah well it always has been this way.
Could you put the "Bisu wins next msl prediction" with a slash through it in a spoiler for a while?
I think there is a spoiler tag in the title of the thread? I understand what you mean though, I hate when I'm looking at VODS in the Small Vod Thread and I click on a spoiler tag, assuming it pertains to a game I either already know the results to or don't care about, and then I find out the results to the recent sAviOr game that I wanted to watch Maybe in threads (and maybe titles) we should try harder to make the spoilers + Show Spoiler [what is being spoiled] +
On January 09 2008 04:30 BlackSphinx wrote: I'm just wondering if Bonjwa is just simply the french "Bon joueur", or, good player. That's the kind of things Grrr could say.
And it sounds exactly like how an asian would say it.
Just an idea...
Whoa boy, let me school you.
bonjwa = 本座
Loose translation in English that works the best is probably "The Throne".
Wow really nice write up. This actually explains the bonjwa a lot better to me.
Why in the fucking world do people throw that word around like its nothing...? calling everyone the next bonjwa when they dont even come close to nada,iloveoov,savior
i donno if bonjwa = 本座 but 本座 literally translates to "this seat" in chinese. in ancient times "this seat" is a term for someone in office (usually used by a high ranked monk or buddist) to refer to themselves. you would use it like the words "me" or "i" in a sentence.
the more powerful term is 朕 pronounced "zhen", which also means and can be used as "i" or "me" in a sentence. however, this term is used only by the emperor. anyone else using this term will be executed on charges of treason or insults against the throne.
a more correct term would be 陛下, pronouced "bi xia" in chinese which translates to "his majesty". the japanese term for it is spelt the same, pronouced "heika". the emperors of japan can be formally referred to using "tenno heika" meaning "his majesty the emperor"
Everyone here thought Bisu was going to be the next Bonjwa, but is was for naught. Bisu was the false Bonjwa. We all thought he was the next light, because he defeated Savior, as Savior defeated oov, as oov defeated NaDa, as new Bonjwa defeats old Bonjwa. But now we know the truth. Now we know the true Bonjwa is not Bisu. So who do we see most likely to become the next Bonjwa? I'm saying it right now, if Jaedong kills Savoir this OSL 16, he could be the true Bonjwa. Destined to be great, and destined to fall.
On January 16 2008 11:31 PsycHOTemplar wrote: Everyone here thought Bisu was going to be the next Bonjwa, but is was for naught. Bisu was the false Bonjwa. We all thought he was the next light, because he defeated Savior, as Savior defeated oov, as oov defeated NaDa, as new Bonjwa defeats old Bonjwa. But now we know the truth. Now we know the true Bonjwa is not Bisu. So who do we see most likely to become the next Bonjwa? I'm saying it right now, if Jaedong kills Savoir this OSL 16, he could be the true Bonjwa. Destined to be great, and destined to fall.
:o...
That was so epic that I almost shit myself.
What if Bisu wins the next MSL and OSL? Will he be qualified to claim the Bonjwa name then?
On January 16 2008 11:31 PsycHOTemplar wrote: Everyone here thought Bisu was going to be the next Bonjwa, but is was for naught. Bisu was the false Bonjwa. We all thought he was the next light, because he defeated Savior, as Savior defeated oov, as oov defeated NaDa, as new Bonjwa defeats old Bonjwa. But now we know the truth. Now we know the true Bonjwa is not Bisu. So who do we see most likely to become the next Bonjwa? I'm saying it right now, if Jaedong kills Savoir this OSL 16, he could be the true Bonjwa. Destined to be great, and destined to fall.
:o...
Or this can simply prove that Bonjwas are a silly concoction that people try to use to generalize and romanticize pro-gamers careers.
I'd like to mention that the pattern discussed here is a cute pattern, nothing more. Following this pattern is not the prerequisite for becoming a "bonjwa". Be dominant enough, the titles will follow.
This "will Bisu be bonjwa if he wins the next MSL?" is getting old. If Bisu ever does become "bonjwa", it'll be because he destroyed his opponents left and right (something he never quite managed to do) regardless of the situation.
"Bonjwa" needs to dominate, that's all. And by domination, I mean utter domination, winning against ALL, not just "he was unstoppable in proleagues" or "he may have not done well in proleagues but he got the most titles in individual leagues". Can anyone lay claim to such level of domination currently? Does anyone's play right now just REEK of raw domination? Nope. Can Bisu do it? Maybe. But it won't be because he managed to complete some pattern.
I personally find hope in Jaedong. But I'm biased because I have a soft spot for zerg users.
Out of everyone so far jaedong comes the closest in being a bonjwa. Look at the guy's zvt zvz stats.They scream oov all over. And his zvp is top too and still getting better. Jaedong is a monster. Hes the one to beat. And i think he will until some terran or zerg dominates him like 3-0 in a final.
Out of everyone so far jaedong comes the closest in being a bonjwa. Look at the guy's zvt zvz stats.They scream oov all over. And his zvp is top too and still getting better. Jaedong is a monster. Hes the one to beat. And i think he will until some terran or zerg dominates him like 3-0 in a final.
There is... one other. Inter.Mind :O He crushed through a very diverse number of match ups, and did it without any trouble. He just didn't do it very flashily, and he came out of no where, so no one's gotten a chance to really look at him yet.
Well, you just terrified me for a second, then I read it, It doesn't mean byStarcraft. Although that can be right because Progamers, it's a regular Starcraft game except with like 1000X the stress. And Savior, right now is probably stressed out of his mind 2x
Jaedong is totally the next Bonjwa. He dismantled Bisu. I can't picture another Protoss laying a glove on him, as Free lost to Savior, Ra is in iffy form, and Anytime plays on his team (I think Anytime JD would be a great matchup). Basically, if anybody has a shot at JD it's Anytime. His ZvT is absolutely monstrous. His ZvZ is perfect. Basically, I think that Lux has a shot of eking out a ZvZ win, as Anytime has a chance of beating him, otherwise this MSL belongs to him, and he looks miles ahead of anybody in the OSL.
Jaedong double champion this season, you heard it here first (probably not :|)
This is an awful statement. Jaedong was on the edge of his seat most of the game, and Jaedong miraculously won. Sure, Jaedong did win, but he didn't totally dismantle as you claim. Nevertheless, the game was on Blue Storm, so... ;D
This is an awful statement. Jaedong was on the edge of his seat most of the game, and Jaedong miraculously won. Sure, Jaedong did win, but he didn't totally dismantle as you claim. Nevertheless, the game was on Blue Storm, so... ;D
I'm a JD fan, give me a little artistic freedom
Any other map and JD probably wouldn't have won. But, the case is made. JD can play ZvP in a very big way.
This is so interesting and scary at the same time.
If this article is right progamers are literally burning themselves out.
Multitasking constantly for 10 hours a day 6-7 days a week for a huge portion of the year... thats gotta put so much stress on the nervous system and body.
On January 28 2008 11:48 GeneralStan wrote: Jaedong is totally the next Bonjwa. He dismantled Bisu. I can't picture another Protoss laying a glove on him, as Free lost to Savior, Ra is in iffy form, and Anytime plays on his team (I think Anytime JD would be a great matchup). Basically, if anybody has a shot at JD it's Anytime. His ZvT is absolutely monstrous. His ZvZ is perfect. Basically, I think that Lux has a shot of eking out a ZvZ win, as Anytime has a chance of beating him, otherwise this MSL belongs to him, and he looks miles ahead of anybody in the OSL.
Jaedong double champion this season, you heard it here first (probably not :|)
This is so interesting and scary at the same time.
If this article is right progamers are literally burning themselves out.
Multitasking constantly for 10 hours a day 6-7 days a week for a huge portion of the year... thats gotta put so much stress on the nervous system and body.
Most tasks you perform in BW are incredibly simple in nature. With the amount of practice progamers are getting, almost everything that can be multitasked is done completely mechanically and doesn't require any higher brain functions. I don't think BW multitasking puts a lot of stress on the brain per se.
However progamers don't play casual games. They're trying to push it as far as it will go. You can make any simple task stressful by trying to do it faster, better, stronger, whatever. I don't think burnout results from multitasking as much as from the stress one naturally expects in such a pressure-rich environment.
Theres something wrong with the thing on the front page.. on the Trigem MSL Iloveoov defeated Nada on the semifinals (checked on TLPD) and defeated Yellow on the finals. My Theory It seems like the Bonjwa seems to be going by defeating the last Bonjwa on the semifinals, like Savior beating Iloveoov on the semifinals, and people were thinking Bisu was going to be Bonjwa because he beat Savior on the MSL Finals, but when Mind came and played on GOM TV MSL Season 3 he defeated the last bonjwa (Savior) 3-2 and some reason it seems that Mind could be the next Bonjwa. again this is my theory it could be wrong
On April 01 2008 14:20 Live2Win wrote: imo, Bisu is an OSL title short of having the "Bonjwa" title.
If Bisu had won the Ever OSL, or the Gom3 MSL then maybe. If both, definitely. Bisu was the best player since march and has been the best player up untill the end of the fall season. Winning either of those starleagues would give Bisu almost a whole year of uninterrupted domination over the progaming scene. In other words he'd have been sitting on the "throne" for almost a year.
If Bisu somehow wins a starleague in the future, it would be hard calling him a bonjwa because there will be players like Flash and Jaedong around who are better than him. How can you be called a bonjwa when there are two or more players who are better? He needed long term domination.
I do hope you forgive the bump, but with the new MSL season (and JD playing soon) . . .
I know bonjwas no longer exist cos of the closeness of skill gaps between players, where A classes can take on S classes on a good day, but what if, what if, what if . . .
Jaedong, who already won and OSL and an MSL (out of two straight finals appearances) reverses the trend? Winning an OSL before winning 3 (out of 4) MSLs?
That would be a beautiful, beautiful thing, wouldn't it?
What would be beautiful is if savior stopped going fast hive, got his shit sorted out and came back to win 3 more MSLs...that...that would be beautiful. I wouldn't say the era of Bonjwas is over, we just haven't had one in a while
On September 24 2008 03:42 Kennigit wrote: What would be beautiful is if savior stopped going fast hive, got his shit sorted out and came back to win 3 more MSLs...that...that would be beautiful. I wouldn't say the era of Bonjwas is over, we just haven't had one in a while
I can still see the posts I made way up top. This pattern is simply a coincidence and by no means a requirement. Dominant players winning individual leagues, gee, who'd guess?
So the ultimate million dollar question: What's the next evolution of StarCraft gonna look like, if it's even possible. I don't know, nobody knows. 1 glimpse of a possible breakthrough is the game b/w Bisu and UpMagiC during EVER07 where he pulled off a strategy that completely went against conventional thinking of what an advantage is in SC and how to maximize it. The problem now is how to come up with a pattern of regularity.
He also gave us the 2port wraith TvZ build. God I love UpMagiC.
On September 24 2008 03:42 Kennigit wrote: What would be beautiful is if savior stopped going fast hive, got his shit sorted out and came back to win 3 more MSLs...that...that would be beautiful. I wouldn't say the era of Bonjwas is over, we just haven't had one in a while
One can hope (and I am one of them.) But his last three games broke my heart (not in the way that Yukie Chang broke HonestTea's heart in 10th grade, but more like the way his mom broke his heart when she told him, "No HonestTea, you can't walk through that wardrobe because there is no Narnia.")
On September 24 2008 04:51 Zalfor wrote: the problem is that jaedong doesnt have that aura of domination around him
His ZvZ is understated, yes (but ridiculously win.) His ZvT during 2007 was . . . remember oov before he met July?
But yeah, it seems he polished his ZvP but went a bit sloppy with his vT (relative to his 2007 level, I mean.) So he doesn't appears to be this all-ruling choguling.
On September 24 2008 03:42 Kennigit wrote: What would be beautiful is if savior stopped going fast hive, got his shit sorted out and came back to win 3 more MSLs...that...that would be beautiful. I wouldn't say the era of Bonjwas is over, we just haven't had one in a while
Indeed, sAviOr needs to start making more drones and start massing a little bit more rather than making 3 lurkers and rushing into hive forgetting adrenaline and not having enough units... there isnt any "Lurker HerO vs Midas in Hitchhiker anymore"
On September 24 2008 04:28 .risingdragoon wrote: And one Tornato, one Monster, one Maestro.
I can still see the posts I made way up top. This pattern is simply a coincidence and by no means a requirement. Dominant players winning individual leagues, gee, who'd guess?
So the ultimate million dollar question: What's the next evolution of StarCraft gonna look like, if it's even possible. I don't know, nobody knows. 1 glimpse of a possible breakthrough is the game b/w Bisu and UpMagiC during EVER07 where he pulled off a strategy that completely went against conventional thinking of what an advantage is in SC and how to maximize it. The problem now is how to come up with a pattern of regularity.
He also gave us the 2port wraith TvZ build. God I love UpMagiC.
On September 24 2008 04:28 .risingdragoon wrote: And one Tornato, one Monster, one Maestro.
I can still see the posts I made way up top. This pattern is simply a coincidence and by no means a requirement. Dominant players winning individual leagues, gee, who'd guess?
So the ultimate million dollar question: What's the next evolution of StarCraft gonna look like, if it's even possible. I don't know, nobody knows. 1 glimpse of a possible breakthrough is the game b/w Bisu and UpMagiC during EVER07 where he pulled off a strategy that completely went against conventional thinking of what an advantage is in SC and how to maximize it. The problem now is how to come up with a pattern of regularity.
He also gave us the 2port wraith TvZ build. God I love UpMagiC.
Wait.... what?
I know huh LOL, Boxer used to do it a long time ago ^_^
2port wraith vs standard 3hatch muta circa post-savior, more recently used by lomo
what are you talking about, boxer, what year is that? That game in 05 was 1base no macro vs a 2hatch scourge into lurker. It's nothing like the new timing build.
On September 24 2008 04:41 .risingdragoon wrote: BTW Jaedong is still on the path of Bonjwa. It's been about a year and he's still winning everything in sight.
What he really needs is a few worthy adversaries to meet him in the finals. ForGG for one.
Neither ForGG and Jaedong were born in November. But they are still candidates for non-November Bonjawa, but neither have revolutionized the game enough to justify Bonjawa status. Nada, Oov, and Savior all revolutionized the game in one form or another.
I really hate Mind for screwing up the pattern. What a damn chump. Bisu would have been a great bonjwa as he revolutionized PvZ, and finally shut up the PvZ whiners. He's also the first and only protoss in modern times to win a PvZ final(MSL OSL).
On October 28 2007 06:32 .dragoon wrote: Not jinxed, but the so-called bonjwa seems to standardize a part of his own style among the pros, which leads to the next one to become specialized in dismantling that style.
Yep, to be king, you had to kill the previous one.
Reading Plexa's newspost made me want to bump this thread. I realize the pattern has been taken way too seriously by some people around here so please read the disclaimer I added at the beginning of the OP.
This being said, although the "original" pattern (3 out of 4 MSL into OSL into slump/new bonjwa/repeat) has failed to repeat, only the "out of 4" part has proven to be wrong so far. Bisu just won his third MSL and is in the form of his life, and one of the big favorites to win the current OSL.
Meanwhile, Leta, AGAIN someone born in November, just took down Flash in the MSL, and no one would be really surprised should he win the whole thing. He would make a perfect contender for the next cycle.
Only little "flaw" in all this is Bisu beating Leta in their last encounter. Bisu is supposed to be jinxed against Leta, like Savior has been jinxed vs Bisu, Oov was vs Savior and Nada vs Oov. This is only one game though, and pre-Bisu-OSL-win too, so it might get totally reversed after their next few encounters.
Anyway, the (slightly altered) pattern kind of lives on for now!
On February 26 2009 04:23 PoP wrote: Only little "flaw" in all this is Bisu beating Leta in their last encounter. Bisu is supposed to be jinxed against Leta, like Savior has been jinxed vs Bisu, Oov was vs Savior and Nada vs Oov. This is only one game though, and pre-Bisu-OSL-win too, so it might get totally reversed after their next few encounters.
Bisu has yet to have a winning encounter against GuemChi, though...
I mean really though, if BW is still around competitively in 3-4 years I have to think Flash will either be an unstoppable behemoth or he'll be burned out and gone.
On February 26 2009 04:23 PoP wrote: This being said, although the "original" pattern (3 out of 4 MSL into OSL into slump/new bonjwa/repeat) has failed to repeat, only the "out of 4" part has proven to be wrong so far. Bisu just won his third MSL and is in the form of his life, and a huge favorite to win the current OSL.
Meanwhile, Leta, AGAIN someone born in November, just took down Flash in the MSL, and no one would be really surprised should he win the whole thing. He would make a perfect contender for the next cycle.
The cycle would be a mess if Bisu won OSL and Leta won MSL now. I believe in the past, the new guy would beat the old guy to break the cycle, but if this were to happen, Leta would be starting his cycle while Bisu's is still rolling. There's no knocking down of the old king, and if that were to happen, it would be while both players were in the middle of their cycle.
I don't think Nada/Oov/Savior had the mid-cycle lapse that Bisu was in for the past few seasons, but still, wouldn't it be fun if Bisu were to win OSL?
As meaningless as this cycle is, it sure is fun talking about it
imo i think it's too early to call leta as the upcoming next bonjwa though ;\
Well no one's calling him a bonjwa yet. He's miles away from it. Out of all the rookies though, he's by far the most promising, so who knows.
JangBi will flatten Leta like a pancake am i the only one who thinks so ? Also Bisu is not the favourite , but one of the favourites .There are to many good players left in the OSL to call Bisu the favourite to win it . Bisu could even end up facing Best and geting eliminated not to mention that Jaedong/Luxury are no pushovers either .I'm staying strong to my statement that Jaedong will dismantle Bisu in their upcoming series .
The 1st 3 players you talked about all won their MSLs almost if not in a row. Bisu has done it over a period of 3 years.....
Also, Stork has been almost as successful as Bisu over that same period of time (I know winning the whole thing is much better than 2nd place, but still, 2nd is hardly something to brush off)
On February 26 2009 07:12 Purind wrote: The cycle would be a mess if Bisu won OSL and Leta won MSL now. I believe in the past, the new guy would beat the old guy to break the cycle, but if this were to happen, Leta would be starting his cycle while Bisu's is still rolling. There's no knocking down of the old king, and if that were to happen, it would be while both players were in the middle of their cycle.
Well Bisu started his reign during the first MSL he won which happened at the same time as Savior's OSL iirc (MSL finals happened a few days/weeks later, though).
I believe the situation was similar for previous "transitions" as well.
On February 26 2009 07:14 Jaksiel wrote: I think it's silly to call Bisu a "huge favorite" to win the OSL with Jaedong (and other quality players, of course) still around.
You're right, probably a tad of an overstatement here. I'll edit that to "one of the big favorites".
On February 26 2009 07:29 Trezeguet23 wrote: The 1st 3 players you talked about all won their MSLs almost if not in a row. Bisu has done it over a period of 3 years.....
Actually the first MSL Bisu won had its finals in March 2007. So it's not 3 years but rather about 1 and a half.
I agree pop. Bisu is playing some of the best starcraft I have ever seen right now. I think people when considering how good he really is are forgeting that zerg is truly stronger then protoss and can get tons and tons of wins just because protoss as a race can't scout.
If jaedong doesn't win the osl then I want bisu or (I pray) july do.
man it would be absolutely insane of all these predictions came true (Bisu wins OSL and then gets beat by Leta in the next MSL)
the "November Club" of Bonjwas is eerily similiar enough already without this shit coming true.
also it would confirm that flash and jaedong indeed are demons, sent by the devil himself with unnatural starcraft ability to fuck up the natural order of things.
what everybody seems to forget is that Bisu beetween Gom TV MSL 3 and Club day MSL had a hand injury and his performance after that decreased a lot. I think it was a physical injury but also mental with that and it is why he wasnt capable of doing well post Gom TV MSL 3.
What's your point? That he has potential but it was never realized? Well, bonjwas aren't made on potential but dominance. I don't want to start the argument again, but all we can say it's that it's not Bisu's fault for his decline but we can't offer him anything more than sympathy.
Somehow, this story needs an update. What's the new Bonjwa story like? I can envision it for Flash:
Win OSL Carry team for 2 years Win OSL/Silver MSL Win MSL/Silver OSL Win OSL/MSL Lead team to SPL victory Win MSL Dominate any other player in head to head BoXs
EDIT: Honestly when Flash won his most recent MSL, I found it hard to get excited. It was expected. That's the mark of dominance I think should make him undisputably a Bonjwa...
EPT
NaDa
sAviOr
Bisu
.
. WILL SAVIOR FINALLY BREAK THE BISU BUILD? OR WILL HE BE STEAMROLLED AGAIN. (Please not another 3-0 lol)
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Testie over 
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