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On December 02 2007 06:49 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2007 06:45 Wraithlin wrote:On December 02 2007 05:59 Rekrul wrote:Bisu forced saviour to abort a drop in his main which was completely defenceless when his corsairs luckily went past his overlords. If you are calling this part of the game luck you are foolish. Of course Bisu knows the exact drop timing. Bisu was scouting for any Saviour expansions he had not found and discovered the drop coming from a base he had not previously scouted. That is luck. No, it's skill. YEAH OKAY AFTER A HUNDRED THOUSAND PVZ PRACTICE GAMES AGAINST TOP ZERG PLAYERS HE'S GOING TO JUST NORMALLY DIE TO SOME RETARDED STANDARD DROP UNLESS HE LUCKILY SCOUTS IT WITH CORSAIRS. ur right bisu gets lucky every time a zerg tries to drop on him he scouts it with corsairs!! gorush and savior would've won if he weren't so lucky!
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Wraithlin, when you scout a drop with sairs, it is luck. When Bisu does it, it is skill.
No protoss on earth has ever come close to having the timing in PvZ that Bisu does.
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On October 29 2007 00:22 CultureMisfits wrote:
things like this make me believe starcraft progaming is staged
If you think a few coincidences here make starcraft progaming staged, check my detailed comparison between Nada and iloveoov a long time ago here: (don't bump old thread) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=29320
You just read the story through using all the first half of the parenthesis for Nada's story, then again reading all the second half of the parenthesis for iloveoov's story and they amazingly match up.
Some of the bonjwa comparisons I made then still hold for Savior and Bisu as well as with Nada and Iloveoov, but every time a new bonjwa comes the similarities will be fewer. Here is a general bonjwa story that holds for everyone so far:
1. Win the MBC league as an unknown, on the way defeating the most dominant Zerg player at the time in 3 games in a row. Savior didn't have to follow this trend because he WAS the dominant Zerg player, but the other 3 bonjwas(all royal roaders of MBC) have all taken 3 consecutive games against the best Zerg in the world at the time during the first MBC league win.
2. Considered the best in the world at all 3 of their matchups at some point in time, hence the dominance.
3. They all dominated the MSL after their first win and won the MBC league twice after (not sure about Bisu yet), but somehow didn't focus on or win the OSL until the third and last MBC title was theirs. (again, not sure about Bisu yet)
4. After finally won the OSL, meaning they had nothing left to prove, their first major wtf moment came when they all got promptly annihilated 3-0 by a Protoss player in the MSL. (yet again, not sure about Bisu yet) In the very next MBC league, they were expected to win again, but then they lost anyways even though they had the luck of not playing that Protoss player again.
5. 3 of them had ironic matchup weakness. Iloveoov's downfall was TvZ, savior's was ZvP, and Bisu's potential downfall against Mind was PvT. Ironic because these have been historically considered the "easy" matchups in the game, and for oov and savior their downfall happened for their most dominant matchup.
6. In contrast, all of them were ridiculously good at their historically "hard" matchup. In fact, they were so good at it that TvP, PvZ, and ZvT are no longer considered "hard" matchups today. The strategy evolution of playing these happened mostly due to these guys showing the rest of the world how to dominate the "hard" matchup.
7. All have been heavy favorites against the previous bonjwa.
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yakii
Korea (South)1448 Posts
On October 28 2007 23:12 PoP wrote:
Bonjwas have all been considered newcomers at the time they won their first starleague, which means if there's gonna be a new one, I'm pretty sure we've almost never heard of him yet... or just a little.
Btw, it's also interesting to note that ALL BONJWAS WERE BORN ON NOVEMBER. :D
NaDa: 1984-11-20
Oov: 1983-11-05
sAviOr: 1987-11-23
Bisu: 1989-11-03
For 4 persons to be born on the same month, it's a (1/12)^3 = 1/1728 = 0.06% chance of happening if I'm not mistaken. -_-
On November 03 2007 03:29 Last Romantic wrote:
Bloody YellOw, Oct 31 birthday...
one day later...
... T-T
poor yellow T.T
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On December 02 2007 06:45 Wraithlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2007 05:59 Rekrul wrote:Bisu forced saviour to abort a drop in his main which was completely defenceless when his corsairs luckily went past his overlords. If you are calling this part of the game luck you are foolish. Of course Bisu knows the exact drop timing. Bisu was scouting for any Saviour expansions he had not found and discovered the drop coming from a base he had not previously scouted. That is luck.
GTFO
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I notice all the flamers ignore my comments on game 2 ...
Bisu and saviour are playing on an insane level that I willnever fully comprehend, but here is the deal, NEITHER WILL YOU, and believe it or not there is luck in any competition (unless you play chess or Go). Professional footballers get lucky, International poker players get lucky,and sometimes Starcraft players get lucky. Want the most obvious proof; starting positions are random (or are you going to claim Bisu has some gosu skill that lets him determine where players will spawn?).
That does not detract from Bisus play, but to make like he floored Saviour effortless is a massive distortion of the truth. The truth is Saviour had him rocking in both games 2 and 3, and particularly in game 2 Saviour was disadvantaged by the map in my opinion.
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On November 17 2007 08:31 marshmallow wrote:
Those who are amazed that these excellent SC players all have a birthday in November shouldn't be. It's an interesting fact, but the calculations people are doing here are off by a lot.
For example, in a group of just seven random people, it is more likely than not that two of them will have a birthday within a week of each other. Also, in a group of 23 people there's a 50% probability that one pair will share the same birthday.
Look up the "birthday problem" or "birthday paradox" to see why. Wikipedia has a nice article on it.
Erm, no. The problems and probabilities are entirely different. In a group of 23 people there being a single pair having the same birthday is entirely different for 5-6 people, the only people in the group, to all have the same month birthday. The probability IS very low.
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On December 02 2007 07:24 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2007 08:31 marshmallow wrote:
Those who are amazed that these excellent SC players all have a birthday in November shouldn't be. It's an interesting fact, but the calculations people are doing here are off by a lot.
For example, in a group of just seven random people, it is more likely than not that two of them will have a birthday within a week of each other. Also, in a group of 23 people there's a 50% probability that one pair will share the same birthday.
Look up the "birthday problem" or "birthday paradox" to see why. Wikipedia has a nice article on it. Erm, no. The problems and probabilities are entirely different. In a group of 23 people there being a single pair having the same birthday is entirely different for 5-6 people, the only people in the group, to all have the same month birthday. The probability IS very low.
If Korean school years are like the UK then a november birthday would place them at the top of their age range for a given school grade. That may go someway to explaining the strange conincidence, there may be other cultural reasons that distort the figures; for instance Koreans may prefer to have children in November because it is considered lucky. If there are youth leagues these players may have been the oldest in their age category giving them anatural advantage etc.etc.
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On December 02 2007 07:23 Wraithlin wrote:
I notice all the flamers ignore my comments on game 2 ...
Bisu and saviour are playing on an insane level that I willnever fully comprehend, but here is the deal, NEITHER WILL YOU, and believe it or not there is luck in any competition (unless you play chess or Go). Professional footballers get lucky, International poker players get lucky,and sometimes Starcraft players get lucky. Want the most obvious proof; starting positions are random (or are you going to claim Bisu has some gosu skill that lets him determine where players will spawn?).
That does not detract from Bisus play, but to make like he floored Saviour effortless is a massive distortion of the truth. The truth is Saviour had him rocking in both games 2 and 3, and particularly in game 2 Saviour was disadvantaged by the map in my opinion.
its savior ffs, not savioUr... god.
and wtf is wrong with ur retarded comparisons? starting pos. and drop-timing.
.. Saviour was in his base and all over him when suddenly, instead of a stream of hydras to finish the game, the reinforcements dried up. Why ? He was mining from FOUR bases compared to Bisu's ONE...
no. 3drones at bottom right expo, 0 drones at mid right expo. he had enough gas but no minerals. and he lost many, many lord to cors. its not like savior had 4:1 expo advantage, he had 4 hatcheries but his drone count was never that strong as you claim it was.
Bisu and saviour are playing on an insane level that I willnever fully comprehend, but here is the deal, NEITHER WILL YOU
but it seems ur knowledge is more limited than ours. go watch the vods again.
edit: i did, press f5.
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Except if you read my post (which you clearly didnt) I said that Savior was unlucky because their starting positions were as far away as was possible on that map, which in turn made making a sucessful drop that much harder. If you magically think Bisu knew there was a drop coming from a base he had not even scouted, then that is what you believe Im not going to attack you the way you attack me. Personally I think Bisu was scouting for expansions and spotted the incoming drop, if it had been second alter he wouldnt have know it was coming.
And you still havent answered my comments on game 2.
[e]
I could believe Bisu was scouting for Saviours overlords, knowing they were not in his main, and that there were certain areas where Savior was most likely to be hiding them but I dont believe he was explictally looking for a drop.
[ee]
Yes, Bisu did an amazing job of killing overlords to stem Saviours flow of reinforcements into his open base after the drop and front attack, I just believe this was made alot easier because of themap terrain allowing him to fly a short route between Saviors main and his expansion just short, while they hydras had to run a long route. I am in no way saying bisu did not play an amazing game, only that they were very very closely matched and that small advantages to bisu from the maps ended up tiping that balance. The post I first replied to implies Bisu wiped the floor with saviour effortlessly.
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Canada9720 Posts
On December 02 2007 07:45 HiTexas wrote:
its savior ffs, not savioUr... god.
leave off him will you. while savior is the guy's ID, saviour is the correct british spelling
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On December 02 2007 08:01 Wraithlin wrote:
Except if you read my post (which you clearly didnt) I said that Savior was unlucky because their starting positions were as far away as was possible on that map, which in turn made making a sucessful drop that much harder. If you magically think Bisu knew there was a drop coming from a base he had not even scouted, then that is what you believe Im not going to attack you the way you attack me. Personally I think Bisu was scouting for expansions and spotted the incoming drop, if it had been second alter he wouldnt have know it was coming.
And you still havent answered my comments on game 2.
[e]
I could believe Bisu was scouting for Saviours overlords, knowing they were not in his main, and that there were certain areas where Savior was most likely to be hiding them but I dont believe he was explictally looking for a drop.
Strengths of Corsair build:
1.) Scouting
2.) Air Control
Both of these factor directly into preventing drops. It wasn't that Bisu was lucky in preventing a drop. Its Savior that was lucky to have managed to pull a successful drop all series at all.
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On December 02 2007 08:01 Wraithlin wrote:
The post I first replied to implies Bisu wiped the floor with saviour effortlessly.
I suppose you mean my post, in which case you totally misread what I said. There's a slight difference between "convincing" and "effortless", isn't there?
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On December 02 2007 08:40 PoP wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2007 08:01 Wraithlin wrote:
The post I first replied to implies Bisu wiped the floor with saviour effortlessly. I suppose you mean my post, in which case you totally misread what I said. There's a slight difference between "convincing" and "effortless", isn't there?
That becomes a matter of debating semantics, which is pointless.
I am willing to conceede that I saw a different game to everyone else and Bisu was never pushed; I was just posting my opinions. I was devastated to see Savior lose that series, and only hope that he will continue to evolve his game and stay competative against Bisu (and Mind ?).
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Based on this, I'm predicting right now that Bisu gets 3-0'd by Much.
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On December 02 2007 07:33 Wraithlin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2007 07:24 Aphelion wrote:On November 17 2007 08:31 marshmallow wrote:
Those who are amazed that these excellent SC players all have a birthday in November shouldn't be. It's an interesting fact, but the calculations people are doing here are off by a lot.
For example, in a group of just seven random people, it is more likely than not that two of them will have a birthday within a week of each other. Also, in a group of 23 people there's a 50% probability that one pair will share the same birthday.
Look up the "birthday problem" or "birthday paradox" to see why. Wikipedia has a nice article on it. Erm, no. The problems and probabilities are entirely different. In a group of 23 people there being a single pair having the same birthday is entirely different for 5-6 people, the only people in the group, to all have the same month birthday. The probability IS very low. If Korean school years are like the UK then a november birthday would place them at the top of their age range for a given school grade. That may go someway to explaining the strange conincidence, there may be other cultural reasons that distort the figures; for instance Koreans may prefer to have children in November because it is considered lucky. If there are youth leagues these players may have been the oldest in their age category giving them anatural advantage etc.etc.
Korean school years begin at March.
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On December 02 2007 08:01 Wraithlin wrote:
Except if you read my post (which you clearly didnt) I said that Savior was unlucky because their starting positions were as far away as was possible on that map, which in turn made making a sucessful drop that much harder. If you magically think Bisu knew there was a drop coming from a base he had not even scouted, then that is what you believe Im not going to attack you the way you attack me. Personally I think Bisu was scouting for expansions and spotted the incoming drop, if it had been second alter he wouldnt have know it was coming.
And you still havent answered my comments on game 2.
[e]
I could believe Bisu was scouting for Saviours overlords, knowing they were not in his main, and that there were certain areas where Savior was most likely to be hiding them but I dont believe he was explictally looking for a drop.
[ee]
Yes, Bisu did an amazing job of killing overlords to stem Saviours flow of reinforcements into his open base after the drop and front attack, I just believe this was made alot easier because of themap terrain allowing him to fly a short route between Saviors main and his expansion just short, while they hydras had to run a long route. I am in no way saying bisu did not play an amazing game, only that they were very very closely matched and that small advantages to bisu from the maps ended up tiping that balance. The post I first replied to implies Bisu wiped the floor with saviour effortlessly.
corsairs basically give you free map hack and will wipe everything out of the air, im quite surprised savior even got a drop-off with that many corsairs flying around and especially how well bisu was playing. i have never seen anyone multi-task so damn well and micro their corsairs so perfectly at the same time. dodging hydras, hunting overlords, tech scouting, checking for expos. etc etc.
you may be underestimating the skill of the pros. they practice
quite
a
fair
bit
so i wouldn't be surprised at all if bisu knew from experience, judging from saviors army size, tech level, upgrades, level of aggression, that a drop was cookin.
there was this interview where stork said something like:
"we were getting practice help from MBCgame and bisu helped me with my pvz. he told me exactly what sort of battles would break out on which maps, at what time in the game and which units would be involved, where on the map and how many units. when i played later on it happened exactly as he said. afterwards i asked him how he knew but he wouldn't tell me."
i dont know about you but i more or less stopped breathing for a bit when i read that.
ultimately we'll never know if it was luck or skill, but to stubbornly say that it was luck for sure is a little naive and underestimating.
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Spoilers obviously, and its in the thread title.
Anyway, with Bisu getting knocked out of the OSL, he is still following the Bonjwa road, is he not? Following the trend, he would have been knocked out of this OSL because he didn't win his 3rd MSL yet, which came true.
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silly question, maybe it's been answered before:
are/were any of these people (except savior obviously) actually referred to as bonjwa (not in this thread, i mean in korea)?
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EPT
