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Who's the THIRD best Brood War player of all time?

Forum Index > BW General
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LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1464 Posts
December 18 2022 11:28 GMT
#1
This title was tough with the 50 characters max let me tell ya! ^_._^

Should we be nice to Protoss and give em number 3 at least? ; D
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4208 Posts
December 18 2022 12:36 GMT
#2
NaDa imo

maybe iloveoov
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2277 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-18 13:05:15
December 18 2022 13:02 GMT
#3
jaedong/savior

#1 protoss (aka bisu) is arround 6 or 7 imo.
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2842 Posts
December 18 2022 13:41 GMT
#4
How can we decide this when we haven't been able to decide who's the second yet
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1464 Posts
December 18 2022 13:45 GMT
#5
On December 18 2022 22:41 TMNT wrote:
How can we decide this when we haven't been able to decide who's the second yet


So true! I mean I think it's clearly Flash. First place would be the eventual AI takeover.
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands5130 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-18 16:56:43
December 18 2022 16:41 GMT
#6
On December 18 2022 22:41 TMNT wrote:
How can we decide this when we haven't been able to decide who's the second yet

[image loading]

The poll result very clearly shows JD as favorite for 2nd best.

I counted/gauged the votes in the thread of people who bothered enough about the poll to write in the thread and there JD is also the favorite (by 1 over Nada) with Boxer/Savior as tied 3rd (if I recall correctly). I counted about a week ago and didn't feel like bumping the thread again, but it was like 19 JD vs 18 Nada.

From those people that bothered to post in previous thread it is clear Nada should be 3rd, but if you look at the poll this should be about Boxer vs Nada? Since the original poll was on TL's main page, one can argue SC2 fans with little to no knowledge about BW skewed the poll in favor of JD...

This all calls for a new poll to vote 3rd best, but OP rather be clowning
FBH #1!
CHEONSOYUN
Profile Joined August 2017
536 Posts
December 18 2022 17:02 GMT
#7
it’s Jaedong (3rd) not enough people were around to appreciate or understand why Nada was so good.
JAEDONG...!!! EFFORT IS ANGRY. ZERG...?!
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
December 18 2022 17:09 GMT
#8
1. FanTaSy
2. FlaSh
3. Jaedong

Don't @ me
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
hiro protagonist
Profile Joined January 2009
1294 Posts
December 18 2022 17:52 GMT
#9
Bisu is clearly #3 in my mind.

Only other players I would give a slot to here are effort and Julyzerg
"I guess if you climb enough off-widths, one of these days, your gonna get your knee stuck and shit your pants. Its just an odds thing really" -Jason Kruk
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8290 Posts
December 18 2022 18:22 GMT
#10
My baby JD is clearly second!
I have 3 pick for 3rd place: Bisu , Fantasy and Effort..

I rank Nada and Rain very high in terms of pure talent.

Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8290 Posts
December 18 2022 18:32 GMT
#11
I thought about which players are good at a specific thing, like early game , micro , macro or one unit control
Here it is:

wraiths: Leta
reavers: Snow
dts: Bisu
carriers: Stork
macro: Best and OOV
vulture harassing: Fantasy
Muta control: JD
lings control: JD and Kwanro
early game: Mini (probably the best ever at early game)
game plan and execution: Flash
defiler: savior
m&m micro: Boxer (he still has it!)
good effective APM: soulkey
Very high APM(unfortunately not so effcient): Hyuk
Nice building placemen: Horang2

the most handsome: JD
the best chef: JD
the most talented at singing and dancing: JD

Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1464 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-18 20:22:54
December 18 2022 20:17 GMT
#12
On December 19 2022 01:41 Peeano wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2022 22:41 TMNT wrote:
How can we decide this when we haven't been able to decide who's the second yet

[image loading]

The poll result very clearly shows JD as favorite for 2nd best.

I counted/gauged the votes in the thread of people who bothered enough about the poll to write in the thread and there JD is also the favorite (by 1 over Nada) with Boxer/Savior as tied 3rd (if I recall correctly). I counted about a week ago and didn't feel like bumping the thread again, but it was like 19 JD vs 18 Nada.

From those people that bothered to post in previous thread it is clear Nada should be 3rd, but if you look at the poll this should be about Boxer vs Nada? Since the original poll was on TL's main page, one can argue SC2 fans with little to no knowledge about BW skewed the poll in favor of JD...

This all calls for a new poll to vote 3rd best, but OP rather be clowning


Polls restrict options thus shaping and constraining people's opinions unless ALL possible options are included in the poll (and all answers are presented equally which is impossible). Since there are no criteria we've agreed to judge by threads are a much better way to express one's opinion. If people want to say Artosis is greatest BW player they have the right to do so!
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1464 Posts
December 18 2022 20:19 GMT
#13
On December 19 2022 03:32 prosatan wrote:
I thought about which players are good at a specific thing, like early game , micro , macro or one unit control
Here it is:

wraiths: Leta
reavers: Snow
dts: Bisu
carriers: Stork
macro: Best and OOV
vulture harassing: Fantasy
Muta control: JD
lings control: JD and Kwanro
early game: Mini (probably the best ever at early game)
game plan and execution: Flash
defiler: savior
m&m micro: Boxer (he still has it!)
good effective APM: soulkey
Very high APM(unfortunately not so effcient): Hyuk
Nice building placemen: Horang2

the most handsome: JD
the best chef: JD
the most talented at singing and dancing: JD



Now THIS comment is much closer to the truth! You sure you are Protoss? kek
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1464 Posts
December 18 2022 20:21 GMT
#14
On December 18 2022 22:02 XenOsky wrote:
jaedong/savior

#1 protoss (aka bisu) is arround 6 or 7 imo.


Harsh!
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3615 Posts
December 18 2022 20:26 GMT
#15
If we're postulating 1. Flash 2. Jaedong there's a certain elegance to rounding out with 3. Bisu, but a list that's put Jaedong second really is building into more of a peak skill list (at minimum a peak-of-era list), and I think that would have to go to Nada.

Or it's an intimidation factor list, and you could make a strong argument for any of half a dozen players - Bisu, July, Nada, oov, Boxer, and savior.
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8290 Posts
December 18 2022 21:11 GMT
#16
On December 19 2022 05:19 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 03:32 prosatan wrote:
I thought about which players are good at a specific thing, like early game , micro , macro or one unit control
Here it is:

wraiths: Leta
reavers: Snow
dts: Bisu
carriers: Stork
macro: Best and OOV
vulture harassing: Fantasy
Muta control: JD
lings control: JD and Kwanro
early game: Mini (probably the best ever at early game)
game plan and execution: Flash
defiler: savior
m&m micro: Boxer (he still has it!)
good effective APM: soulkey
Very high APM(unfortunately not so effcient): Hyuk
Nice building placemen: Horang2

the most handsome: JD
the best chef: JD
the most talented at singing and dancing: JD



Now THIS comment is much closer to the truth! You sure you are Protoss? kek

yesss ! Protoss FTW!
Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-19 03:38:39
December 19 2022 03:35 GMT
#17
There would be no terran without the Emperor, there would be no FlaSh without BoxeR on television. You guys should read "Crazy As Me" to understand why Lim Yo Hwan is one of the greatest progamers.

https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/46384-boxers-biography-crazy-as-me
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/288614-boxers-autobio-crazy-as-mepdf-for-kindle-3
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1urw5e/lim_yohwans_boxer_autobiography_crazy_as_me/ (download here book if links are broken)
sunbeams are never made like me...
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
December 19 2022 14:46 GMT
#18
Terms aren't defined.

3rd best peak skill?

3rd best in terms of accomplishments?

3rd best in terms of accomplishments weighted based on estimated depth of talent?

etc.

The answers to each question are quite different.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
Marl
Profile Joined January 2010
United States692 Posts
December 19 2022 15:26 GMT
#19
On December 19 2022 03:32 prosatan wrote:
I thought about which players are good at a specific thing, like early game , micro , macro or one unit control
Here it is:

wraiths: Leta
reavers: Snow
dts: Bisu
carriers: Stork
macro: Best and OOV
vulture harassing: Fantasy
Muta control: JD
lings control: JD and Kwanro
early game: Mini (probably the best ever at early game)
game plan and execution: Flash
defiler: savior
m&m micro: Boxer (he still has it!)
good effective APM: soulkey
Very high APM(unfortunately not so effcient): Hyuk
Nice building placemen: Horang2

the most handsome: JD
the best chef: JD
the most talented at singing and dancing: JD


storms: jangbi
PhilGood2DaY
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany7424 Posts
December 19 2022 15:38 GMT
#20
1. Flash
2. NaDa
3. Jeadong


(truth)
hatred outlives the hateful
kaspa84
Profile Joined July 2016
Brazil169 Posts
December 19 2022 16:17 GMT
#21
If Broodwar ended at 2.012 with the KeSPA end, Jaedong would have a reasonable case for being the GoaT, I think it's fairly obvious he was at least the second best of all time by both accolades and skill level.
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1464 Posts
December 19 2022 16:42 GMT
#22
On December 20 2022 01:17 kaspa84 wrote:
If Broodwar ended at 2.012 with the KeSPA end, Jaedong would have a reasonable case for being the GoaT, I think it's fairly obvious he was at least the second best of all time by both accolades and skill level.


I've always respected KESPA opinions! I blame SC2 for JD's fall..
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
Mutaller
Profile Blog Joined July 2013
United States1051 Posts
December 19 2022 16:55 GMT
#23
On December 20 2022 01:42 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 20 2022 01:17 kaspa84 wrote:
If Broodwar ended at 2.012 with the KeSPA end, Jaedong would have a reasonable case for being the GoaT, I think it's fairly obvious he was at least the second best of all time by both accolades and skill level.


I've always respected KESPA opinions! I blame SC2 for JD's fall..


He wasn't bad, I think he would have had a better SC2 career if he stayed on a KeSPA team. But EG was probably the best thing for him growing up and experiencing a world outside of Korea, and the KeSPA organization. I clearly consider him 2nd best and the best zerg in BW. Even if BW tournaments ended I still think it would be FlaSh as #1
"To practice isn't for you to get better now in the present. Practice will never betray you and will always come back for you in the future." -Jaedong
Puosu
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
6985 Posts
December 19 2022 17:10 GMT
#24
On December 20 2022 00:38 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
1. Flash
2. NaDa
3. Jeadong


(truth)

seems p clear that this is indeed the truth
A.Alm
Profile Joined September 2012
Sweden527 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-19 18:44:42
December 19 2022 18:31 GMT
#25
My bw experience started i think 1-2~ years before GomTV (2008~) when Savior was dominant and Flash was an up-and-comer, so for me it's:

1) Flash
2) Jaedong
3) Bisu

I have such fond memories of waking up on Sunday's watching Tastless cast GomTV (first english commentator in korea casting at location i think?) with some wonky GomTV-player streaming 240p quality.
prosatan
Profile Joined September 2009
Romania8290 Posts
December 19 2022 18:59 GMT
#26
On December 20 2022 00:26 Marl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 19 2022 03:32 prosatan wrote:
I thought about which players are good at a specific thing, like early game , micro , macro or one unit control
Here it is:

wraiths: Leta
reavers: Snow
dts: Bisu
carriers: Stork
macro: Best and OOV
vulture harassing: Fantasy
Muta control: JD
lings control: JD and Kwanro
early game: Mini (probably the best ever at early game)
game plan and execution: Flash
defiler: savior
m&m micro: Boxer (he still has it!)
good effective APM: soulkey
Very high APM(unfortunately not so effcient): Hyuk
Nice building placemen: Horang2

the most handsome: JD
the best chef: JD
the most talented at singing and dancing: JD


storms: jangbi


Of course!!!! How could I forget that ?!
Lee JaeDong Fighting! The only church that illuminates is the one that burns.
CHEONSOYUN
Profile Joined August 2017
536 Posts
December 19 2022 19:19 GMT
#27
On December 20 2022 00:38 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
1. Flash
2. NaDa
3. Jeadong


(truth)


greatness yes there’s almost zero argument between 1-2. jaedong you could maybe replace with someone else but it’s flash-nada.

skill-wise open debate fantasy would probably be somewhere in the top 3 but i don’t see anyone mentioning him lol
JAEDONG...!!! EFFORT IS ANGRY. ZERG...?!
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19267 Posts
December 19 2022 20:13 GMT
#28
Hope this helps out!

Elo Peak Overall
[image loading]

Elo Peak vT
[image loading]

Elo Peak vZ
[image loading]

Elo Peak vP
[image loading]


Additionally on Protoss:

+ Show Spoiler +

For a deeper dive and big shoutout to letmelose, here are great articles to better shape your thoughts by looking at all data:




https://tl.net/blogs/536313-professional-non-major-tournament-career-ranking

5. Bisu

Champion of GomTV Classic S2: 176 professionals participating
Champion of WCG 2009 Korea: 24 professionals participating

Sum total of participating professionals from all the triumphs: 200

Comments: Bisu was not only the most decorated protoss player in the major individual leagues, he also happened to have great success outside of it, his greatest non-major triumph being GomTV Classic S2, which was the largest in scale out of all the GomTV Classics (in terms of player participation, because teams like SK Telecom T1 didn't allow their players to compete in the other GomTV Classics).




https://tl.net/blogs/535759-five-traits-of-competitive-brood-war
2. Gaming athleticism

Definition: Aptitude for playing Brood War at a physical level. The hardware prototype of the perfect Brood War gamer, just like how there is a desirable physical prototype for any competitive athletic fields. Some of the more hardware oriented attributes would include the ability to maximize inputs within a short span of time (a metric that can be somewhat measured by eAPM), having a shorter reaction time, having more accurate mouse clicking abilities, and being in possession of larger than average hand-span to make full usage of all control-groups.

How high levels of gaming athleticism tends to manifest within competitive Brood War: Players with innate levels of high dexterity involving the mouse and keyboard are able to hit great levels of micro-management and macro-management even without having the best build orders, or the most dedicated practice schedule towards mastering all the intricacies of the units being handled.

I would guess that players who are naturally built for accurate and rapid manipulation of the mouse and keyboard would excel in other genres of video-gaming, especially first-person shooter games. Which is perhaps why NaDa (one of the most gifted gamers from a physical perspective) had such keen interest in playing Sudden Attack (a first-person shooter game) during his time as a professional. Terror[fOu] was prodigious talent known for his somewhat rigid, but mechanically solid mutalisk micro-managament based play during his amateur days, and now is known for his decent aiming abilities when he plays PUBG.

Downside of high levels of conscientiousness: Not much I can think of. Although there is a much lower return for being more physically suited for competitive Brood War than some of the other traits, having better physical attributes does not have any negative attributes that tend to tag alongside it, such as extremely high levels of creativity often being associated with low levels of conscientiousness.

Epitome of this trait: JangBi.

JangBi was a phenomenonally gifted protoss player who was blessed with a quick reaction times, accurate and rapid point and clicking ability indicative of an high end hand-eye coordination, and ability to sustain high eAPM levels even without much dedication or practice. When people discussed professional players with the fastest reaction times, JangBi was always the one of the first names to spring up in the conversation. Stork always said that he never saw a player who clicked units from his gateways faster than JangBi.

His natural talents allowed JangBi to quickly possess a delicate handling of all of the available protoss arsenal, ability to pump units from his numerous gateways with only a fraction of the time required for the average protoss user, which in turn allowed JangBi to focus more heavily on his playmaking with his units.

While I personally felt like JangBi never allocated his concentration to multiple screens effectively, or had necessary speed of thought combined with his fantastic gaming athleticism, JangBi in my eyes had the perfect hardware prototype for a great Brood War player.

Jaedong, another mechanical monster, had hands that were way too small (his hand-span was merely 18cm, which is why his mechanical prowess spiked earlier than most players, whereas JangBi's mechanical prowess remained top notch whether it involved handling a handful of units, or orchestrating a fully maxed out army), while Bisu, another player who stood out in terms of his hardware, had trouble differentiating himself when he focused his play within a single screen. Bisu's unmatched multi-tasking prowess had an element of great screen management and knowing exactly where and when to look next (mostly within the protoss-versus-zerg match-up), which is slightly different from being the sheer physical act of being able to click fast and accurately while hammering away ceaselessly on the keyboard pumping out units.



https://tl.net/blogs/534635-adjusting-for-proleague-schedule-inflation
2. Stork

1) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 1: 6-5
10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 13-11
2) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 2: 7-6
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 9-7
3) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 1: 3-5
10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 7-11
4) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 2: 3-4
10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 7-9
5) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 1: 15-4
6) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 2: 15-6
7) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 1: 11-8
8) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 2: 13-8
9) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 1: 12-6
10) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 2: 5-3
11) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 1: 10-6
12) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 2: 12-7
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 15-9
13) Shinhan 2011 ProLeague Round 1: 9-12
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 11-15

Schedule adjusted regular season ProLeague record: 143-103 (58.13%)

Comments: Stork's best ProLeague years were from 2007, but his 2005 rookie performance is vastly underrated due to the lack of schedule there was back then. Once we re-adjust the numbers to equalize the scheduling constraints, Stork was already hitting double digits per season in his rookie season.


5. Bisu

1) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 1: 0-0
2) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 2: 2-1
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 2-1
3) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 1: 0-0
4) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 2: 4-2
10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 9-4
5) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 1: 6-5
6) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 2: 3-3
7) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 1: 6-7
8) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 2: 15-3
9) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 1: 18-5
10) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 2: 7-2
11) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 1: 5-9
12) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 2: 17-2
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 21-2
13) Shinhan 2011 ProLeague Round 1: 18-3
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 22-4

Schedule adjusted regular season ProLeague record: 114-45 (71.70%)

Comments: Bisu doesn't have many double digit seasons, but what we lacks in number, he makes up with sheer quality in the seasons he was in form. In particular, his performance during Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague was astounding, with Bisu hitting great numbers despite the number of teams participating being reduced (leading to less number of regular ProLeague matches), and once we adjust for the scheduling restraints, we can see that he actually got over twenty ProLeague victories for two consecutive seasons.




https://tl.net/blogs/533176-greatest-high-profile-best-of-series-players
3. Stork

[image loading]

Overall record: 91-71 (56.17%)
Record versus terran players: 41-21 (66.13%)
Record versus zerg players: 23-29 (44.23%)
Record versus protoss players: 29-25 (53.70%)

Stork has been the player who participated in more best-of-series, the most out of any protoss players in history unless I am mistaken. This is something that hold true regardless of whether the records are confined to the major individual leagues, or expanded to include major side tournaments such as GomTV Classics or WCG Korea.

However, Stork also is the player that lost more within a high profile best-of-series setting, than any other modern day player (71 defeats suffered within a high profile best-of-series setting), most famously for his tendencies to come second place at any large scale domestic tournaments. Due to his large collection of failures, as well as poor performance versus the top zerg players of his era, Stork is often remembered more as a successful loser, rather than a memorable winner.

4. Bisu

[image loading]

Overall record: 76-50 (60.32%)
Record versus terran players: 37-33 (52.86%)
Record versus zerg players: 15-2 (88.24%)
Record versus protoss players: 24-15 (61.54%)

The most famous protoss player, probably in all of history, managed less overall victories within a best-of-series setting than Stork (even if the parameters are changed to just include the two major individual leagues), mainly due to his erratic form, but also managed great success in a couple of key tournaments to make up for the kind of longetivity Stork boasted.

Since the MBC Game StarLeague was Bisu's homeground, and Ongamenet StarLeague was Stork's, it may be interesting to compare the performances of these two players in a more neutral tournament that lasted for many years, WCG Korea.

Bisu may have only represented Korea once, but he won WCG 2009. Stork on the other hand had longetivity on his side, and represented Korea a record three times (a record he shares with Jaedong), but never won a single WCG Korea title (he came second place three years in a row from 2007 to 2009).

5. JangBi

[image loading]


Overall record: 61-40 (60.40%)
Record versus terran players: 25-11 (69.44%)
Record versus zerg players: 15-12 (55.56%)
Record versus protoss players: 21-17 (55.26%)

I was personally expecting FanTaSy, widely regarded as the fifth greatest player of the modern generation of Brood War professionals, to place fifth on this list.

However, while FanTaSy was generall way more consistent in terms of qualifying for the lower bracket-stages, JangBi was the best best-of-series player outside of the Taek-Beng-LeeSsang quartet, as evidenced by his two OGN StarLeague championships, as well as numerous second place finishes in the MBC Game StarLeague, GomTV Classic, and 2007 Seoul e-Sports Festival.

While JangBi isn't even the top ten ProLeague players of his era (in fact, JangBi has the worst ProLeague records out of the Six Dragons), JangBi was able to mark his name in history with a few short bursts of magic, that mostly had him run circles round his terran foes, with a success rate that even oveshadowed Stork's, generally considered the greatest protoss-versus-terran player of all-time.




https://tl.net/blogs/533041-players-with-the-widest-effective-map-pools
3. Stork

[image loading]

Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,100 ELO points: 10
Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,150 ELO points: 1
Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,200 ELO points: 0

Due to his extensive career, Stork has by far the most flexibility from a time-line perspective, having success on maps such as Neo Guillotine, as well as the more recent maps such as Aztec.

Stork seemed to have a preference for two player maps, which were used less frequently in the professional scene than four player maps, but consisted half of maps where Stork scored over 2,100 ELO points. One could theorize that two player maps lessened the burden on Stork's mediocre multi-tasking, and accentuated Stork's stellar micro-management abilities.

4. Bisu

[image loading]

Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,100 ELO points: 9
Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,150 ELO points: 2
Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,200 ELO points: 2

Bisu is the only player on this list to score over 2,200 ELO points on this list, an accomplishment something even Jaedong or Flash cannot boast. However, his effective map pool was not as large as one might expect for a player of such talents.

Bisu seemed to have a soft spot for three player maps, despite it being the rarest form out of the usual competitive maps, excelling on maps such as Medusa, Aztec, and Longinus II. Three player maps, due to its rotational nature and difficulty in splitting the map in half, often lended way to fast paced multi-tasking warfares, which was Bisu's strong point.




https://tl.net/blogs/532756-great-players-with-lopsided-careers
5. Stork

First ever round of 16 appearance: 2005
Reached the finals in: 2007, 2008, 2011
Final round of 16 appearance: 2012
Overall career points: 78 points
Ongamenet StarLeague points: 59 points (75.64%)

Possible reasons for the lopsidedness: Stork holds the record for the most round of 16 appearances within the Ongamenet StarLeague, and has appeared in four finals spanning across nearly four years. Even though he has only won a single championship, few would question his claim as the greatest protoss performer within the Ongamenet StarLeague.

While he was insanely close to winning the MBC Game StarLeague in 2007, he never quite found his mojo when playing from the MBC Game studios. While he was the epitome of consistency within the Ongamenet StarLeague, his MBC Game StarLeague legacy had much to be desired.

While his protoss-versus-terran win rate within the MBC Game StarLeague games is a very respectable 72.4%, his protoss-verus-zerg win rate pales in comparison with a completely lackluster 27.8% win rate, and may have been the root cause of his relatively mediocre showings in the MBC Game StarLeague.

Just as a side note, Bisu's career is basically Stork's career turned in the other direction (60 points earned within the MBC Game StarLeague out of a career total of 80 points, which makes him have a slightly more balanced career).

ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Puosu
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
6985 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-19 21:25:47
December 19 2022 21:13 GMT
#29
KeSPA ranking history (liquipedia.net) also provides a perspective

e.g.
[image loading]
[image loading]
Simplistik
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
2050 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-19 22:19:31
December 19 2022 22:17 GMT
#30
We're saying "greatest," right? Not "best"...

Yeah, although it pains my Protoss heart, this is probably between Nada and Boxer. I'd give it to Nada, because for a time he looked unbeatable.

On the other hand, Protoss seems to be somehow at a little disadvantage, and Bisu did really show that Protoss can dominate and remade a whole match-up. That's gotta count for something! RIGHT?!
Dear BW Gods, it IS now autumn, so...
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1464 Posts
December 19 2022 22:27 GMT
#31
On December 20 2022 01:55 Mutaller wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 20 2022 01:42 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
On December 20 2022 01:17 kaspa84 wrote:
If Broodwar ended at 2.012 with the KeSPA end, Jaedong would have a reasonable case for being the GoaT, I think it's fairly obvious he was at least the second best of all time by both accolades and skill level.


I've always respected KESPA opinions! I blame SC2 for JD's fall..


He wasn't bad, I think he would have had a better SC2 career if he stayed on a KeSPA team. But EG was probably the best thing for him growing up and experiencing a world outside of Korea, and the KeSPA organization. I clearly consider him 2nd best and the best zerg in BW. Even if BW tournaments ended I still think it would be FlaSh as #1


Sadly JD has been underwhelming in the current ASL era while Flash is as dominant as ever! And many others have stepped up..
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1464 Posts
December 19 2022 22:32 GMT
#32
On December 20 2022 05:13 BisuDagger wrote:
Hope this helps out!

Elo Peak Overall
[image loading]

Elo Peak vT
[image loading]

Elo Peak vZ
[image loading]

Elo Peak vP
[image loading]


Additionally on Protoss:

+ Show Spoiler +

For a deeper dive and big shoutout to letmelose, here are great articles to better shape your thoughts by looking at all data:




https://tl.net/blogs/536313-professional-non-major-tournament-career-ranking

5. Bisu

Champion of GomTV Classic S2: 176 professionals participating
Champion of WCG 2009 Korea: 24 professionals participating

Sum total of participating professionals from all the triumphs: 200

Comments: Bisu was not only the most decorated protoss player in the major individual leagues, he also happened to have great success outside of it, his greatest non-major triumph being GomTV Classic S2, which was the largest in scale out of all the GomTV Classics (in terms of player participation, because teams like SK Telecom T1 didn't allow their players to compete in the other GomTV Classics).




https://tl.net/blogs/535759-five-traits-of-competitive-brood-war
2. Gaming athleticism

Definition: Aptitude for playing Brood War at a physical level. The hardware prototype of the perfect Brood War gamer, just like how there is a desirable physical prototype for any competitive athletic fields. Some of the more hardware oriented attributes would include the ability to maximize inputs within a short span of time (a metric that can be somewhat measured by eAPM), having a shorter reaction time, having more accurate mouse clicking abilities, and being in possession of larger than average hand-span to make full usage of all control-groups.

How high levels of gaming athleticism tends to manifest within competitive Brood War: Players with innate levels of high dexterity involving the mouse and keyboard are able to hit great levels of micro-management and macro-management even without having the best build orders, or the most dedicated practice schedule towards mastering all the intricacies of the units being handled.

I would guess that players who are naturally built for accurate and rapid manipulation of the mouse and keyboard would excel in other genres of video-gaming, especially first-person shooter games. Which is perhaps why NaDa (one of the most gifted gamers from a physical perspective) had such keen interest in playing Sudden Attack (a first-person shooter game) during his time as a professional. Terror[fOu] was prodigious talent known for his somewhat rigid, but mechanically solid mutalisk micro-managament based play during his amateur days, and now is known for his decent aiming abilities when he plays PUBG.

Downside of high levels of conscientiousness: Not much I can think of. Although there is a much lower return for being more physically suited for competitive Brood War than some of the other traits, having better physical attributes does not have any negative attributes that tend to tag alongside it, such as extremely high levels of creativity often being associated with low levels of conscientiousness.

Epitome of this trait: JangBi.

JangBi was a phenomenonally gifted protoss player who was blessed with a quick reaction times, accurate and rapid point and clicking ability indicative of an high end hand-eye coordination, and ability to sustain high eAPM levels even without much dedication or practice. When people discussed professional players with the fastest reaction times, JangBi was always the one of the first names to spring up in the conversation. Stork always said that he never saw a player who clicked units from his gateways faster than JangBi.

His natural talents allowed JangBi to quickly possess a delicate handling of all of the available protoss arsenal, ability to pump units from his numerous gateways with only a fraction of the time required for the average protoss user, which in turn allowed JangBi to focus more heavily on his playmaking with his units.

While I personally felt like JangBi never allocated his concentration to multiple screens effectively, or had necessary speed of thought combined with his fantastic gaming athleticism, JangBi in my eyes had the perfect hardware prototype for a great Brood War player.

Jaedong, another mechanical monster, had hands that were way too small (his hand-span was merely 18cm, which is why his mechanical prowess spiked earlier than most players, whereas JangBi's mechanical prowess remained top notch whether it involved handling a handful of units, or orchestrating a fully maxed out army), while Bisu, another player who stood out in terms of his hardware, had trouble differentiating himself when he focused his play within a single screen. Bisu's unmatched multi-tasking prowess had an element of great screen management and knowing exactly where and when to look next (mostly within the protoss-versus-zerg match-up), which is slightly different from being the sheer physical act of being able to click fast and accurately while hammering away ceaselessly on the keyboard pumping out units.



https://tl.net/blogs/534635-adjusting-for-proleague-schedule-inflation
2. Stork

1) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 1: 6-5
10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 13-11
2) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 2: 7-6
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 9-7
3) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 1: 3-5
10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 7-11
4) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 2: 3-4
10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 7-9
5) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 1: 15-4
6) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 2: 15-6
7) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 1: 11-8
8) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 2: 13-8
9) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 1: 12-6
10) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 2: 5-3
11) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 1: 10-6
12) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 2: 12-7
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 15-9
13) Shinhan 2011 ProLeague Round 1: 9-12
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 11-15

Schedule adjusted regular season ProLeague record: 143-103 (58.13%)

Comments: Stork's best ProLeague years were from 2007, but his 2005 rookie performance is vastly underrated due to the lack of schedule there was back then. Once we re-adjust the numbers to equalize the scheduling constraints, Stork was already hitting double digits per season in his rookie season.


5. Bisu

1) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 1: 0-0
2) SKY 2005 ProLeague Round 2: 2-1
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 2-1
3) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 1: 0-0
4) SKY 2006 ProLeague Round 2: 4-2
10 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 9-4
5) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 1: 6-5
6) Shinhan 2007 ProLeague Round 2: 3-3
7) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 1: 6-7
8) Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Round 2: 15-3
9) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 1: 18-5
10) Shinhan 2009 ProLeague Round 2: 7-2
11) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 1: 5-9
12) Shinhan 2010 ProLeague Round 2: 17-2
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 21-2
13) Shinhan 2011 ProLeague Round 1: 18-3
18 available match days -> Record re-adjusted for 22 available match days: 22-4

Schedule adjusted regular season ProLeague record: 114-45 (71.70%)

Comments: Bisu doesn't have many double digit seasons, but what we lacks in number, he makes up with sheer quality in the seasons he was in form. In particular, his performance during Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague was astounding, with Bisu hitting great numbers despite the number of teams participating being reduced (leading to less number of regular ProLeague matches), and once we adjust for the scheduling restraints, we can see that he actually got over twenty ProLeague victories for two consecutive seasons.




https://tl.net/blogs/533176-greatest-high-profile-best-of-series-players
3. Stork

[image loading]


Overall record: 91-71 (56.17%)
Record versus terran players: 41-21 (66.13%)
Record versus zerg players: 23-29 (44.23%)
Record versus protoss players: 29-25 (53.70%)

Stork has been the player who participated in more best-of-series, the most out of any protoss players in history unless I am mistaken. This is something that hold true regardless of whether the records are confined to the major individual leagues, or expanded to include major side tournaments such as GomTV Classics or WCG Korea.

However, Stork also is the player that lost more within a high profile best-of-series setting, than any other modern day player (71 defeats suffered within a high profile best-of-series setting), most famously for his tendencies to come second place at any large scale domestic tournaments. Due to his large collection of failures, as well as poor performance versus the top zerg players of his era, Stork is often remembered more as a successful loser, rather than a memorable winner.

4. Bisu

[image loading]

Overall record: 76-50 (60.32%)
Record versus terran players: 37-33 (52.86%)
Record versus zerg players: 15-2 (88.24%)
Record versus protoss players: 24-15 (61.54%)

The most famous protoss player, probably in all of history, managed less overall victories within a best-of-series setting than Stork (even if the parameters are changed to just include the two major individual leagues), mainly due to his erratic form, but also managed great success in a couple of key tournaments to make up for the kind of longetivity Stork boasted.

Since the MBC Game StarLeague was Bisu's homeground, and Ongamenet StarLeague was Stork's, it may be interesting to compare the performances of these two players in a more neutral tournament that lasted for many years, WCG Korea.

Bisu may have only represented Korea once, but he won WCG 2009. Stork on the other hand had longetivity on his side, and represented Korea a record three times (a record he shares with Jaedong), but never won a single WCG Korea title (he came second place three years in a row from 2007 to 2009).

5. JangBi

[image loading]


Overall record: 61-40 (60.40%)
Record versus terran players: 25-11 (69.44%)
Record versus zerg players: 15-12 (55.56%)
Record versus protoss players: 21-17 (55.26%)

I was personally expecting FanTaSy, widely regarded as the fifth greatest player of the modern generation of Brood War professionals, to place fifth on this list.

However, while FanTaSy was generall way more consistent in terms of qualifying for the lower bracket-stages, JangBi was the best best-of-series player outside of the Taek-Beng-LeeSsang quartet, as evidenced by his two OGN StarLeague championships, as well as numerous second place finishes in the MBC Game StarLeague, GomTV Classic, and 2007 Seoul e-Sports Festival.

While JangBi isn't even the top ten ProLeague players of his era (in fact, JangBi has the worst ProLeague records out of the Six Dragons), JangBi was able to mark his name in history with a few short bursts of magic, that mostly had him run circles round his terran foes, with a success rate that even oveshadowed Stork's, generally considered the greatest protoss-versus-terran player of all-time.




https://tl.net/blogs/533041-players-with-the-widest-effective-map-pools
3. Stork

[image loading]

Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,100 ELO points: 10
Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,150 ELO points: 1
Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,200 ELO points: 0

Due to his extensive career, Stork has by far the most flexibility from a time-line perspective, having success on maps such as Neo Guillotine, as well as the more recent maps such as Aztec.

Stork seemed to have a preference for two player maps, which were used less frequently in the professional scene than four player maps, but consisted half of maps where Stork scored over 2,100 ELO points. One could theorize that two player maps lessened the burden on Stork's mediocre multi-tasking, and accentuated Stork's stellar micro-management abilities.

4. Bisu

[image loading]

Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,100 ELO points: 9
Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,150 ELO points: 2
Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,200 ELO points: 2

Bisu is the only player on this list to score over 2,200 ELO points on this list, an accomplishment something even Jaedong or Flash cannot boast. However, his effective map pool was not as large as one might expect for a player of such talents.

Bisu seemed to have a soft spot for three player maps, despite it being the rarest form out of the usual competitive maps, excelling on maps such as Medusa, Aztec, and Longinus II. Three player maps, due to its rotational nature and difficulty in splitting the map in half, often lended way to fast paced multi-tasking warfares, which was Bisu's strong point.




https://tl.net/blogs/532756-great-players-with-lopsided-careers
5. Stork

First ever round of 16 appearance: 2005
Reached the finals in: 2007, 2008, 2011
Final round of 16 appearance: 2012
Overall career points: 78 points
Ongamenet StarLeague points: 59 points (75.64%)

Possible reasons for the lopsidedness: Stork holds the record for the most round of 16 appearances within the Ongamenet StarLeague, and has appeared in four finals spanning across nearly four years. Even though he has only won a single championship, few would question his claim as the greatest protoss performer within the Ongamenet StarLeague.

While he was insanely close to winning the MBC Game StarLeague in 2007, he never quite found his mojo when playing from the MBC Game studios. While he was the epitome of consistency within the Ongamenet StarLeague, his MBC Game StarLeague legacy had much to be desired.

While his protoss-versus-terran win rate within the MBC Game StarLeague games is a very respectable 72.4%, his protoss-verus-zerg win rate pales in comparison with a completely lackluster 27.8% win rate, and may have been the root cause of his relatively mediocre showings in the MBC Game StarLeague.

Just as a side note, Bisu's career is basically Stork's career turned in the other direction (60 points earned within the MBC Game StarLeague out of a career total of 80 points, which makes him have a slightly more balanced career).



Good case for Bisu... I should have expected this..
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1464 Posts
December 19 2022 22:33 GMT
#33
On December 20 2022 07:17 Simplistik wrote:
We're saying "greatest," right? Not "best"...

Yeah, although it pains my Protoss heart, this is probably between Nada and Boxer. I'd give it to Nada, because for a time he looked unbeatable.

On the other hand, Protoss seems to be somehow at a little disadvantage, and Bisu did really show that Protoss can dominate and remade a whole match-up. That's gotta count for something! RIGHT?!


I can't make a long title like TL.bot for example so I had to cram it in 50 letters or less kek...
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
RJBTV
Profile Joined December 2022
194 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-20 00:18:23
December 20 2022 00:09 GMT
#34
All time achievements? Peak skill achieved? Time-span of dominance?

In my opinion, players reached near peak skill potential during the last three Kespa years given the limitations of the practice accessability and environment back then. Remastered improved the practice environment changing online turnrate to 24 priorly only available in LAN. It also made the game function more smoothly with other options such as hardware cursor etc.

Pros now have the option to practice against any other top level pro online under their respective favorite playing conditions(at home) with TR 24 Low. They are able to get better practice by having access to the best players much more easily instead of being limited to largely their inhouse LAN practice partners. I think some players, who were due to the limits of their direct practice environment in Kespa era unable to reach their max potential, are now closer to their max potential, while some others who now have Carpal Tunnel are further away from their Kespa era peak from a mechanical stand point.

That all aside though, purely based off timespan of dominance during peak skill years competition wide, Flash takes first and Jaedong second. Third place I'd give to Bisu or Fantasy.

Based off of maximum reached skill potential, Flash, then Jangbi and lastly I'd put Light there with how dominant Light was in 2020 and 2021 online play. He was matched only by Flash in online play.

Downside of looking only at Kespa era is that it ignores the KSL+ASL+KCM+Ultimate Battle Era. Ultimate Battle, Proleague KCM performance is in my opinion the BEST indicator of present day dominance. Much better than ASL.

For present day ELO tracking:
http://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=rank_list
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8694 Posts
December 20 2022 03:54 GMT
#35
bisu. end of story
bonus points because hes the only protoss player to even be in discussion about best/greatest. the list is otherwise dominated by terran/zerg
Simplistik
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
2050 Posts
December 20 2022 10:25 GMT
#36
On December 20 2022 07:33 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 20 2022 07:17 Simplistik wrote:
We're saying "greatest," right? Not "best"...

Yeah, although it pains my Protoss heart, this is probably between Nada and Boxer. I'd give it to Nada, because for a time he looked unbeatable.

On the other hand, Protoss seems to be somehow at a little disadvantage, and Bisu did really show that Protoss can dominate and remade a whole match-up. That's gotta count for something! RIGHT?!


I can't make a long title like TL.bot for example so I had to cram it in 50 letters or less kek...

"kek" indeed!

If we were actually considering "best", then do people feel current ASL/KCM era players are better than Kespa era players?

Would late ASL Light/RoyaL/Zero/Mini beat late kespa JD/Fantasy/Jangbi? (Leaving Flash out, cause, yeah.)
Dear BW Gods, it IS now autumn, so...
LUCKY_NOOB
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Bulgaria1464 Posts
December 20 2022 11:33 GMT
#37
On December 20 2022 19:25 Simplistik wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 20 2022 07:33 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
On December 20 2022 07:17 Simplistik wrote:
We're saying "greatest," right? Not "best"...

Yeah, although it pains my Protoss heart, this is probably between Nada and Boxer. I'd give it to Nada, because for a time he looked unbeatable.

On the other hand, Protoss seems to be somehow at a little disadvantage, and Bisu did really show that Protoss can dominate and remade a whole match-up. That's gotta count for something! RIGHT?!


I can't make a long title like TL.bot for example so I had to cram it in 50 letters or less kek...

"kek" indeed!

If we were actually considering "best", then do people feel current ASL/KCM era players are better than Kespa era players?

Would late ASL Light/RoyaL/Zero/Mini beat late kespa JD/Fantasy/Jangbi? (Leaving Flash out, cause, yeah.)


KESPA era players were better because they practiced much more. The new, updated and optimal builds may give the victory to the ASL era players at first but this will quickly go away (unless they are to practice the same amount of time). That's what I've been told anyway.
ko-fi.com/luckynoob
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19267 Posts
December 20 2022 14:40 GMT
#38
Kespa Only Stats here. Source from LetMeLose posts.

Protoss Individual League Comparison
+ Show Spoiler +

Stork

35 individual leagues attended
23 RO16s (65.71% success rate)
11 RO8s (31.42%)
8 RO4s (22.86%)
5 Finals (14.29%)
1 Championship (2.78%)

Bisu

29 individual leagues attended
14 RO16s (48.28% success rate)
9 RO8s (31.03%)
6 RO4s (20.69%)
4 Finals (13.79%)
3 Championships (10.34%)


Protoss Win Rates:
+ Show Spoiler +

PvT: 5 players with career win rates over 60%

1. Stork: 187-101 (64.93%)
2. Reach: 164-153 (51.74%)
3. Bisu: 159-90 (63.86%)
4. Nal_rA: 143-93 (60.59%)
5. ZeuS: 128-109 (54.01%)
6. PuSan: 124-91 (57.67%)
7. fOru: 124-107 (52.68%)
8. free: 122-97 (55.71%)
9. JangBi: 119-72 (62.30%)
10. Anytime: 114-89 (56.16%)
11. BeSt: 110-57 (65.87%)
12. Kal: 110-82 (57.29%)

PvZ: 1 player with a career win rate over 60%

1. Reach: 190-180 (51.35%)
2. Stork: 156-121 (56.32%)
3. Bisu: 155-69 (69.20%)
4. Nal_rA: 123-107 (53.48%)
5. free: 118-90 (56.73%)
6. Kal: 118-95 (55.40%)
7. ZeuS: 111-120 (48.05%)
8. JangBi: 109-94 (53.69%)
9. fOru: 105-111 (48.61%)
10. Anytime: 102-109 (48.34%)

PvP: 2 players with career win rates over 60%

1. Stork: 135-84 (61.64%)
2. Bisu: 122-71 (63.21%)


All Kills
+ Show Spoiler +

1. Jaedong

Total number of all-kill attempts: 13
Total number of successful all-kills: 5 (38.46%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 4
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 0
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 3
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 1

In 69% of the cases where Jaedong appeared in a Winner's League match with the intentions of all-killing the enemy team, Jaedong managed a minimum of three kills. This is why Jaedong was known as the all-kill king of Winner's League.

2. Bisu

Total number of all-kill attempts: 17
Total number of successful all-kills: 5 (29.41%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 1
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 4
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 2
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 5

Bisu is tied with Jaedong for the most number of completed all-kills, but needed more attempts to do so. Bisu only managed to secure three kills or more, when he actively sought out an all-kill, only 35% of the time, and actually had multiple botched up attempts where he ended up with zero victories to his name.

3. Flash

Total number of all-kill attempts: 12
Total number of successful all-kills: 3 (25.00%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 2
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 2
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 3
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 2

In contrast to Jaedong, Flash tended to be more successful as a closer rather than an actual all-kill threat, and was not that successful when he actively attempted an all-kill, securing three or more victories only 42% of the time.



Map Proficiency
+ Show Spoiler +

Top Five Modern Players With The Widest Effective Map Pools

This ranks all the players in history by the number of maps they had an ELO point of 2,100 or above.

1. Jaedong

Total number of maps where Jaedong scored over 2,100 ELO points: 18
Total number of maps where Jaedong scored over 2,150 ELO points: 7
Total number of maps where Jaedong scored over 2,200 ELO points: 1


2. Flash

Total number of maps where Flash scored over 2,100 ELO points: 18
Total number of maps where Flash scored over 2,150 ELO points: 4
Total number of maps where Flash scored over 2,200 ELO points: 1


3. Stork

Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,100 ELO points: 10
Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,150 ELO points: 1
Total number of maps where Stork scored over 2,200 ELO points: 0

4. Bisu

Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,100 ELO points: 9
Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,150 ELO points: 2
Total number of maps where Bisu scored over 2,200 ELO points: 2

5. Light

Total number of maps where Light scored over 2100 ELO points: 6
Total number of maps where Light scored over 2150 ELO points: 1
Total number of maps where Lightscored over 2200 ELO points: 0


Proleague Achievements
+ Show Spoiler +

This is the debut years of Brood War players who reached at least two or more individual league finals, with their year of birth in brackets:

1999: BoxeR (1980), H.O.T-Forever (1981)
2000: GARIMTO (1981), YellOw (1982), Kingdom (1983), ChoJJa (1984), NaDa (1984)
2001: Nal_rA (1982), Reach (1983)
2002: Anyime (1986), July (1986)
2003: iloveoov (1983), sAviOr (1987)
2004: Stork (1988)
2005: Bisu (1989)
2006: JangBi (1989), Jaedong (1990)
2007: FanTaSy (1991), Flash (1992)
2008:
2009:
2010:
2011:
2012:

One single player (Hydra) managed to make the individual league finals out of all the players who made their debut after 2008. Even if we take the several years it usually takes for debutants to truly become terrifying competitors, and the eventual demise of professional Brood War that took place in 2012, it doesn't quite explain the sudden disappearance of super-rookies to full satisfaction.


Total wins
Players who have made their professional debut after the implementation of the drafting system
Jaedong: 240 ProLeague one-versus-one victories
Flash: 233 ProLeague one-versus-one victories
Bisu: 192 ProLeague one-versus-one victories
Sea: 172 ProLeague one-versus-one victories
FanTaSy: 144 ProLeague one-versus-one victories



The 10-100 Club
+ Show Spoiler +

The 10-100 club is a very exclusive collection of players, only having eight players having the necessary credentials to join the club. The one consistent factor that co-exists amongst these eight players is these players' uncanny ability to thwart players below their level.

1. Players with the most victories within major individual leagues from the round of sixteen onwards

1. Flash: 124 victories
2. Jaedong: 117 victories
3. Stork: 92 victories
4. Bisu: 78 victories
5. FanTaSy: 68 victories
6. ZerO: 40 victories
7. Kal: 37 victories
8. Sea: 16 victories

2. Players with the highest win rate within individual leagues from the round of sixteen onwards

1. Flash: 65.26%
2. Jaedong: 65.00%
3. FanTaSy: 63.55%
4. Bisu: 59.54%
5. Stork: 54.76%
6. ZerO: 53.33%
7. Kal: 48.05%
8. Sea: 34.78%


3. Players with the most victories within qualifying stages leading up to the round of sixteen

1. Sea: 132 wins
2. Stork: 118 wins
3. Bisu: 111 wins
4. Jaedong: 104 wins
5. Kal: 87 wins
6. ZerO: 79 wins
7. Flash: 64 wins
8. FanTaSy: 63 wins

4. Players with the highest win rates within qualifying stages leading up to the round of sixteen

1. Flash: 76.19%
2. Stork: 69.01%
3. Bisu: 68.52%
4. Jaedong: 67.80%
5. Kal: 64.75%
6. ZerO: 64.75%
7. FanTaSy: 64.29%
8. Sea: 62.86%

5. Players with the highest portion of games played within the qualifying stages leading up to the round of 16, out of their overall number of games played within the major individual leagues

1. Sea: 82.03%
2. Kal: 64.68%
3. ZerO: 61.93%
4. Bisu: 55.29%
5. Stork: 50.44%
6. FanTaSy: 47.80%
7. Jaedong: 45.29%
8. Flash: 30.66%

6. Players with the highest discrepancy in win rate when comparing their win rates in the round of sixteen and above, and their win rate from the qualifying rounds leading up to that point

1. Sea: 28.08 percentage difference
2. Stork: 14.25 percentage difference
3. Kal: 13.65 percentage difference
4. ZerO: 11.42 percentage difference
5. Flash: 10.93 percentage difference
6. Bisu: 8.98 percentage difference
7. Jaedong: 2.80 percentage difference
8. FanTaSy: 0.74 percentage difference

The major tournament records of the above eight players for clarity's sake, ranked by their overall number of victories earned from the round of sixteen onwards:

1. Flash

Tournament record from the round of sixteen onwards: 124-66 (65.26%)
Tournament record leading up to the round of sixteen: 64-20 (76.19%)

2. Jaedong

Tournament record from the round of sixteen onwards: 117-63 (65.00%)
Tournament record leading up to the round of sixteen: 104-45 (67.80%)

3. Stork

Tournament record from the round of sixteen onwards: 92-76 (54.76%)
Tournament record leading up to the round of sixteen: 118-53 (69.01%)

4. Bisu

Tournament record from the round of sixteen onwards: 78-53 (59.54%)
Tournament record leading up to the round of sixteen: 111-51 (68.52%)

5. FanTaSy

Tournament record from the round of sixteen onwards: 68-39 (63.55%)
Tournament record leading up to the round of sixteen: 63-35 (64.29%)

6. ZerO

Tournament record from the round of sixteen onwards: 40-35 (53.33%)
Tournament record leading up to the round of sixteen: 79-43 (64.75%)

7. Kal

Tournament record from the round of sixteen onwards: 37-40 (48.05%)
Tournament record leading up to the round of sixteen: 87-54 (61.70%)

8. Sea

Tournament record from the round of sixteen onwards: 16-30 (34.78%)
Tournament record leading up to the round of sixteen: 132-78 (62.86%)

ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8122 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-20 15:25:31
December 20 2022 15:23 GMT
#39
Yea I would probably give #3 to Bisu, just wish he had slightly better individual league performance post 2009. He was a monster in Proleague but just kept blowing it early in OSL/MSL after he won Club Day MSL / GomTV S2 at the same time (very impressive achievement btw).

I don't think he's made it past the Ro4 in ASL or KSL either, right? Although he did make the finals of some pre-ASL tournaments in the post kespa era IIRC.

If not Bisu then definitely Nada.

And in an alternate reality where KESPA never switched to SC2, maybe fantasy and jangbi could have really made legacies for themselves, who knows. Fantasy having the #4 ELO peak of all-time is pretty insane.
Free Palestine
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6179 Posts
December 20 2022 17:02 GMT
#40
Bisu
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands5130 Posts
December 20 2022 20:50 GMT
#41
*insert Bisu excited bouncing clip*
FBH #1!
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