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Lets create a hall of fame for gosu foreigners!
yesterday i heard a rant of Daniel Negreanu about the Poker Hall Of Fame, system. which led me to think why dont we create a Foreigner BW hall of fame?
these are my nominees
Poll: Hall of fame nomineesGrrrr (34) 29% Mondragon (23) 19% Draco (11) 9% ElkY (10) 8% White-Ra (8) 7% IdrA (7) 6% NonY (7) 6% Slayer (6) 5% Legionnaire (4) 3% Eriador (2) 2% Testie (2) 2% Rekrul (1) 1% Pj (1) 1% SEn (1) 1% Nazgul (1) 1% Maynard (1) 1% Assem (0) 0% Lx (0) 0% 119 total votes Your vote: Hall of fame nominees (Vote): Grrrr
(Vote): ElkY
(Vote): Legionnaire
(Vote): Assem
(Vote): Maynard
(Vote): Slayer
(Vote): Mondragon
(Vote): Draco
(Vote): Testie
(Vote): SEn
(Vote): IdrA
(Vote): White-Ra
(Vote): NonY
(Vote): Nazgul
(Vote): Rekrul
(Vote): Eriador
(Vote): Pj
(Vote): Lx
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So what do we vote?
I would also add FiSheYe and Androide to your list.
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On April 02 2021 04:01 asel wrote:
So what do we vote?
I would also add FiSheYe and Androide to your list.
is it possible to edit a poll?
FiSheYe and Androide are good candidates, u're completly right
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Bisutopia19327 Posts
Only having one poll/vote won't allow us to build a list. It will just be a party of 1 at the end of it all. Just put a comprehensive list of candidates in the OP and then we can discuss a way to elect them in.
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Sziky should be in the hof, while his peak might have been after the release of sc2, he was the most dominant foreigner of all time probably
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The best way to do this would probably be a strawpoll with the ability to vote for options, this kind of voting structure makes no sense for what you are trying to achieve.
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Only voting for 1 person is kinda bad. Technically Grrrrr... should get the vote from everyone. Because winning an OSL is the biggest achievement you can have. Obviously in terms of raw playing ability he is not on the same level as a prime Mondragon (e.g).
I think the most skilled/gifted foreigner ever is Slayer. I saw his speed/control in a youtube video about the KBK tournament documentary and it is truly baffling how gifted he was for that time. Basically ~2,3 years after SC BW became an Esport in korea.
The biggest achievements obviously Grrrrr... he won an OSL. He was the first real (and only real) foreign SC BW Pro gamer and even the best overall SC BW gamer for ~1-2 years.
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Majority of those guys on that list would struggle to break A rank, even if fully practiced..
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51576 Posts
On April 02 2021 06:01 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
The biggest achievements obviously Grrrrr... he won an OSL. He was the first real (and only real) foreign SC BW Pro gamer and even the best overall SC BW gamer for ~1-2 years.
did you forget elky who was sponsored by an internet cafe, got top 4 in an osl and stayed relevant in the scene longer than giyom?
for me personally, idra, draco and mondragon would be theoretical shoe-ins.
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On April 02 2021 06:18 oxKnu wrote:
Majority of those guys on that list would struggle to break A rank, even if fully practiced..
I think almost all of them could reach A rank with little to no practice. Grrrrr, Nazgul and Maynard would probably have the hardest time given the era they played in.
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On April 02 2021 04:35 BisuDagger wrote:
Only having one poll/vote won't allow us to build a list. It will just be a party of 1 at the end of it all. Just put a comprehensive list of candidates in the OP and then we can discuss a way to elect them in.
Makes sense;;
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White-Ra was quickly getting into low S, when he made his brief comebacks to BW, stalling after that. Most of the list is from his era(and had an edge on him), so struggling to break A rank is nonsense.
They'd struggle to break 2400, but most could do it given enough practice.
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I vote for Mondragon.
However, I think Bonyth have a fair claim to have the ability to reach even greater highs. If only WCG:BW was sill around...
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I agree with Phil. Grrrr... and Slayer (hasulurker) are probably the only foreigners to ever win a major tournament in Korea.
Those are unrivaled accomplishments.
Elky was a top foreign-player and you could make a case he was a better player (because skill-level kept increasing), but he certainly didn't have the impact that Grrrr... had. Guillaume was and still is a celebrity in Korea and he was among the top in many different tournaments over the years. So it's not like he was a one-hit-wonder.
I think Slayer could've gone the progamer-route and he obviously got the invites after winning KBK, but he didn't choose to. I don't know when he stopped playing but I remember every Korean wanted to play him. He won KBK at a time when most Korean Pros were playing Zerg and the game was considered in favor of Zerg but he was "slaying" one after the other with his own playstyle. It was great to watch, I was actually at that tournament watching over the shoulders. Very humble and great guy, too.
In your list you should include NTT.
He was a special one. Succesful and very unique play-style... and notorious for busting lamers!
Asmodey was also a top-foreigner for quite some time, and could compete with some koreans.
You could make a case for the likes of Saft, Blackman or Froz who may didn't win big tournaments internationally, but were top-notch foreign-players.
If you go really old school like Maynard, you probably should put Pillars, Thor, Tsunami, {PH}Boo!, Jolly, Kain-the-Feared and the likes in the conversation. But I don't know who ever saw them play, reputation was based on tournament results, ladder standings (w fixed speed "fast") and hearsay... there were no streams, VODs or replays, just battle reports and mostly private bnet/kali-channels!
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Also missing Smuft, NTT, maybe Strelok and Brat-ok
For SA it's worth mentioning hellghost and darki
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I throw my vote in for Pro7ect
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Russian Federation378 Posts
You don’t need poll for that. Liquipedia page views for all time will tell you that.
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Slayer
Facts
He was a racepicker and usually played TvZ, ZvP and TvT.
i dig him
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United States43868 Posts
On April 02 2021 06:18 oxKnu wrote:
Majority of those guys on that list would struggle to break A rank, even if fully practiced..
That’s ridiculous. Any of them could get A in a single day of practice. Coming back to bw after a decade isn’t that hard.
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NTT ainec for me
Then, prolly FroZ
Those 2 players are the definition of pure talent.
I never won a single game against NTT and FroZ probably has a 90% winning ratio against me, and they were barely playing the game.
Sure, Testie and Mondragon are probably in any safe top3 of my era but they were online 24/7 (source: i also, duh).
NTT is the most intelligent and reactive player that i ever played with. It would be fun to add some legendary replays to this thread, and if anyone has NTT replays, please share them.
On the other hand, FroZ was so strong. Unless he was practicing secretly, it looks like he was barely playing; a few games a week, sometimes he would disappear for a month, come back and toying with literally everyone.
Both of these guys had a bw career too short to be nominated, but they both should be remembered.
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is awesome32278 Posts
Should probably separate by periods...
From the oldschools you also have sVEN, though he is behind others.
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Anyone that went pro in Korea, Mondragon, Maynard, NTT, Slayer, Sven, Yosh, Fisheye, Asmodey, Androide, Froz, Day9
People should also remember there was a time when there weren't standard unit compositions in each match up (mech in tvp) so you should consider people like Heartcutter.
If you can only vote once, you obviously vote Grrrr.
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what does a foreigner after 2010 has to do to get into this list?
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On April 02 2021 12:28 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2021 06:18 oxKnu wrote:
Majority of those guys on that list would struggle to break A rank, even if fully practiced.. That’s ridiculous. Any of them could get A in a single day of practice. Coming back to bw after a decade isn’t that hard.
Ehhh.
One day I was watching BoxeR (yes, the Korean legend) mass up ladder games in barely A rank.
Later that day I caught Bonyth streaming and he matched up with Boxer and he spanked him so hard it wasn't even funny.
People's nostalgia is surely getting in the way of evaluating absolute skill in this game.
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
Who is the best foreigner in terms of outright level achieved?
In terms of achievement, looking back Grr winning a Starleague is huge, but then again that’s kind of looking back through the prestige and the sheer skill level that Starleague Champions later embodied.
I’m an enthusiastic noob who missed BW’s heyday and have cursed myself every day since. Do try to brush up on the history though.
How do say Nony nearly getting through the Challenge League, or Idra being a relative monster mechanically vs the competition compare to the levels of the modern top foreigners? Curious to the thoughts of the experts.
Such radically different eras, hard but interesting to compare. The early years where so much was yet to be figured out, the real fleshing out and huge mechanical skill brought about by the supremacy of the Kespa regime and how hard it was to compete with that, and the post-Kespa regime where the structure wasn’t there but incredible access to information in terms of streams etc became available.
A Grr or an Elky had success in a game much less figured out, an Idra or a Ret had access to the team environment but when information was much closed off, and the modern ballers have much more information to learn off but not the environment to grind as previous generations did.
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
On April 02 2021 16:07 nyoken wrote:
Anyone that went pro in Korea, Mondragon, Maynard, NTT, Slayer, Sven, Yosh, Fisheye, Asmodey, Androide, Froz, Day9
People should also remember there was a time when there weren't standard unit compositions in each match up (mech in tvp) so you should consider people like Heartcutter.
If you can only vote once, you obviously vote Grrrr.
Maynard, what a guy.
My friend managed to pass the word ‘Maynarding’ in an English undergrad poetry essay. And by pass I don’t mean any subterfuge, he genuinely just thought it was an actual word. Apparently so did his lecturer.
Someone else would have figured it out, but a real revolutionary discovery in RTS. The kind of thing that makes the genre so cool, you yourself may not be the greatest player in the world, but you can experiment and unravel things that really shape the game. Destiny’s unholy abuse of Infestors definitely pushed their adoption by better players along for example.
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On April 02 2021 16:41 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2021 12:28 KwarK wrote:On April 02 2021 06:18 oxKnu wrote:
Majority of those guys on that list would struggle to break A rank, even if fully practiced.. That’s ridiculous. Any of them could get A in a single day of practice. Coming back to bw after a decade isn’t that hard. Ehhh. One day I was watching BoxeR (yes, the Korean legend) mass up ladder games in barely A rank. Later that day I caught Bonyth streaming and he matched up with Boxer and he spanked him so hard it wasn't even funny. People's nostalgia is surely getting in the way of evaluating absolute skill in this game.
Obv skill increased. Boxer is a oldschool pro. You can not compare different eras, really. But how active you are plays a massive role too (in that regards Kwark is completely correct)
But the Hall of Fame is called Hall of Fame for a reason (and not Hall of most skilled/technically sound). If the latter was the case Grrrrr... wouldnt even make it in and people like Mondragon, ret, Bonyth, Dewalt, Slayer(hasulurker) would make that list easily.
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You'd have to divide it by era for sure.
Not to mention it'd be hard to rate people based on tournament winnings, because in the past we didn't have many tournaments to begin with (+most were online and the prize pools were extremely small compared to what we have today in esports).
The playerbase around ~2003-2006 was probably the biggest in the entire history of foreign broodwar* - I can easily think of 50+ players deserving to go on the HoF list from that era alone.
* Example: At it's biggest, there were ~80 all-Polish teams participating in a given seaosn of LigaCW - a clan league hosted by Netwars). Each match that season was played in a 7x1v1 + 3x 2v2 format, so the rosters were quite deep. It wasn't weird for a clan to have 15-20 members, or even two teams. Germany had the BWCL, which was probably just as big, if not bigger. As much as I love BW we'd be lucky to have 1/10th of the player base from that time.
https://web.archive.org/web/20060222061141/http://www.netwars.pl/modules.php?name=news&dzial=3&data=&kategoria=&autor=&tytul=&tresc=&start=10
Good times 
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Northern Ireland26535 Posts
On April 02 2021 17:01 MaGic~PhiL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2021 16:41 oxKnu wrote:On April 02 2021 12:28 KwarK wrote:On April 02 2021 06:18 oxKnu wrote:
Majority of those guys on that list would struggle to break A rank, even if fully practiced.. That’s ridiculous. Any of them could get A in a single day of practice. Coming back to bw after a decade isn’t that hard. Ehhh. One day I was watching BoxeR (yes, the Korean legend) mass up ladder games in barely A rank. Later that day I caught Bonyth streaming and he matched up with Boxer and he spanked him so hard it wasn't even funny. People's nostalgia is surely getting in the way of evaluating absolute skill in this game. Obv skill increased. Boxer is a oldschool pro. You can not compare different eras, really. But how active you are plays a massive role too (in that regards Kwark is completely correct) But the Hall of Fame is called Hall of Fame for a reason (and not Hall of most skilled/technically sound). If the latter was the case Grrrrr... wouldnt even make it in and people like Mondragon, ret, Bonyth, Dewalt, Slayer(hasulurker) would make that list easily.
Yeah I mean every decent piano student can give a solid Bach recital, doesn’t mean they’re on his level, or anywhere near.
Such is RTS though, all it takes is one person to copy your strategic innovation and execute it better and hey you’re supplanted.
Not taking away from any of those folks at all. To have a strategic genius constantly be ahead of better mechanical players the game would have to be in a constant state of change, which would be an absolute pain to either play or follow.
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I'd add didi8 for some of the most entertaining games of all times vs Boxer!
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For me most iconic is White motherfucking Ra! Speshial tektiks! And where's Day[9]?
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On April 02 2021 17:15 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2021 17:01 MaGic~PhiL wrote:On April 02 2021 16:41 oxKnu wrote:On April 02 2021 12:28 KwarK wrote:On April 02 2021 06:18 oxKnu wrote:
Majority of those guys on that list would struggle to break A rank, even if fully practiced.. That’s ridiculous. Any of them could get A in a single day of practice. Coming back to bw after a decade isn’t that hard. Ehhh. One day I was watching BoxeR (yes, the Korean legend) mass up ladder games in barely A rank. Later that day I caught Bonyth streaming and he matched up with Boxer and he spanked him so hard it wasn't even funny. People's nostalgia is surely getting in the way of evaluating absolute skill in this game. Obv skill increased. Boxer is a oldschool pro. You can not compare different eras, really. But how active you are plays a massive role too (in that regards Kwark is completely correct) But the Hall of Fame is called Hall of Fame for a reason (and not Hall of most skilled/technically sound). If the latter was the case Grrrrr... wouldnt even make it in and people like Mondragon, ret, Bonyth, Dewalt, Slayer(hasulurker) would make that list easily. Yeah I mean every decent piano student can give a solid Bach recital, doesn’t mean they’re on his level, or anywhere near. Such is RTS though, all it takes is one person to copy your strategic innovation and execute it better and hey you’re supplanted. Not taking away from any of those folks at all. To have a strategic genius constantly be ahead of better mechanical players the game would have to be in a constant state of change, which would be an absolute pain to either play or follow.
Yeah it is very nuanced. We have to remember there was an era without replays. So being naturally skilled mattered even more back then compared to simply being techincal in your play.
Grrrr... excelled at that for example. I mean recently I remembered something pretty insane. In ~99-02 iirc Giyom basically invented the "Grrrr... Strat" (PvZ) which was basically 1 gate into expansion. Which crazily enough is the consens best PvZ build in 2021. How crazy is that.
Additionally he used Dts in PvZ to snipe drones in his OSL victory over TheBoy. That was more than a decade before Bisu did it and everyone called it a revolution of the match up (I know it kinda was regardless obv).
In terms of offline success Fisheye is up there as well and probably a worthy inclusion (getting 2nd ad WCG Grand Finals is no small feat).
Mondragon was the dominant non korean zerg/player for a couple of years. Also worthy obv.
Elky worthy as well without a doubt. He is one of the very very few foreigners who was a "real" pro gamer. But in terms of success and impact.. Elky does not even come close to what Giyom has achieved.
Well interesting stuff.. really reminds me of how much I loved that stuff back in the day.
Tankful BSL is bringing back these vibes somewhat. But unfortunately the golden days are kinda over.
I always dream that a Billionaire likes the game and simply funds tournaments with hundreds of thousand of dollars. How dope would that be D:
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Russian Federation347 Posts
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South Korea2106 Posts
On April 02 2021 16:30 Bakuryu wrote:
what does a foreigner after 2010 has to do to get into this list?
qualify for an ASL (mb ASTL?) i guess?
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Just being dominant after 2010? (e.g Bonyth Dewalt at this point are Hof worthy kinda??)
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I really like Day9 but this is ridiculous...
didi8 ?! Iefnaij ???? Come on..
Yosh is disqualified obviously
ret is another talented guy from my era that i forgot
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On April 02 2021 19:00 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Just being dominant after 2010? (e.g Bonyth Dewalt at this point are Hof worthy kinda??)
They have to be. Bonyth and Dewalt are by far the highest level of skill a foreigner has gotten at the game.
Another factor is the state of the game. Highly unlikely BW becomes significantly more popular to usher in a new era with new styles/new players etc that would re-assemble the hierarchy so to speak.
It's obviously possible that another player that is active now keeps improving and does something special (qualifying for ASL for example) and gains enough reputation to do that but given the parameters - rather improbable.
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Why isn’t CombatEx on the list?
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Looking forward to CrazyJim (aka GoodNewsJim) jumping into this thread to again claim that he was better than Grrrr and was the actual best BW player of all time.
Yes, he does kind of live in my head rent-free. But after seeing his insane ravings whenever the name Grrrr is mentioned I now think of him.
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On April 02 2021 20:49 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2021 19:00 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Just being dominant after 2010? (e.g Bonyth Dewalt at this point are Hof worthy kinda??) They have to be. Bonyth and Dewalt are by far the highest level of skill a foreigner has gotten at the game.
I'm not absolutely sure about that. You're probably right, but definitely not by far. 2009 had high peak skill, though less overall game knowledge, but high competition and skill. Much more competition than BSL is nowadays, where the same 8 foreigners who are not even playing full time just take turns beating each other. (Bonyth or dewalt usually win).
Most participants are well over 30 years old too. I think it's much more difficult to compare to the pre sc2 days in terms of skills than you believe.
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On April 02 2021 22:19 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2021 20:49 oxKnu wrote:On April 02 2021 19:00 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Just being dominant after 2010? (e.g Bonyth Dewalt at this point are Hof worthy kinda??) They have to be. Bonyth and Dewalt are by far the highest level of skill a foreigner has gotten at the game. I'm not absolutely sure about that. You're probably right, but definitely not by far. 2009 had high peak skill, though less overall game knowledge, but high competition and skill. Much more competition than BSL is nowadays, where the same 8 foreigners who are not even playing full time just take turns beating each other. (Bonyth or dewalt usually win). Most participants are well over 30 years old too. I think it's much more difficult to compare to the pre sc2 days in terms of skills than you believe.
2008-2011-ish era is indeed the era second to the Remastered era (not just foreigners, koreans too) in terms of absolute level. Even if you account for meta-game changes.
I would still gladly take the level of the top players 1.5 years into the Remastered era than the pre-SC2 period.
Simply just way more game-knowledge in the open, every single person that has been top level at this game has streamed a ridiculous amount of hours at this point and that has improved the player-pool tremendously.
Even if that pool is much smaller than what it was 10-12 years ago. We're still taking about that 1% when comparing for preak skill.
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Definitely need to have these periods as break points
1999-2005
2006-2010
2011-current
imo
Interesting topic, actually.
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On April 03 2021 00:20 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
Definitely need to have these periods as break points
1999-2005
2006-2010
2011-current
imo
Interesting topic, actually.
Cool idea, i'd share a top 3 for each period but need to think about it. There are so many great games and players.
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I think what people also need to consider is the mental strength it takes to win a tournament and to play consistently at a high level.
No matter which era, if you're playing a finals you've got to handle a lot of pressure.
Some players excel at that and others don't have that clutchness.
There's also the sense of competitiveness and dedication. There were lots of foreign gamers who were talented and good at the game, but it takes another step to actually live the life of a pro-gamer and compete at the highest level persistently. Most pros are not playing at 100% in non-tournament games, so it doesn't mean much if you take a few games off of them.
HOFers are normally related to their time. It doesn't include players that are mediocre in their own time but may be better compared to players of the past.
And you can't deny that invention is the mother of skill.
Great players are able to read their opponents and trends in the game. If you watch an old replay you may have no clue what was going on in the scene and in the players' minds at the time. There's an energy and flow to each time and that will always keep changing. Salute to the players who are riding these waves and keep creating!
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Cadenzie should be in the HOF aswell.
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Mondie always the best 
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We need a poll that allows us to select X number of people where X is 10 or whatever. If I truly only had one vote would probably go White-Ra.
Better yet separate it into time periods with 10 options each, vote for 4 of them per period or something.
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Did you really make a list of Hall of fame without including Androide ? O_O
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is awesome32278 Posts
Yosh cheated/abused a bunch of times. I would leave him out.
Also some lists here at too US centric, when at some point europe was so far ahead that it's not even funny. Just check out [pG], ToT, MYM, etc lineups. Teams that dominated were mainly european.
To grab the best players of the old era you probably need the input of someone that played regularly at that time, as there isn't much written about it.
Need to call people like Nazgul, Rekrul, Leggionaire to this thread
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No Ret? He was probably the most naturally gifted BW player we had in an era when the competition was greatest (pre-SC2).
Not saying he is the all time best. But he deserves a spot on the list
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Androide, Beast, Didi8, Blackman...
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Ret definitely should be on the list.
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EPT
