On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
Eh, its sort of a valid question if you think about it.
Advertisement middlemen are really smart these days and pay a lot of attention to the demographic of the viewer-base. Targeting ads at the right people is a metric.
What's more problematic is that Afreeca can't find a cost effective way to monetize their product to an international audience. Sure it won't bring them any huge returns but completely dismissing that market seems like a huge mistake.
I think this whole situation is also due to a language and culture barrier.
This is ignoring the cost of providing the service. We would somehow need to generate enough value to pay Tastosis as well as all of the costs that go into providing the cast - camera and audio crew, set construction, make-up, bandwidth, etc. Furthermore, I read during the Gillette-sponsored tournament (I forget which one it was now) that the advertiser is Gillette of Korea, meaning that even if you go to the grocery store and buy a hundred Gillette products, the Korean sponsor doesn't get any return. I imagine this is the situation for most of their advertisers and sponsors.
So, what would be the way to generate revenue? I guess there could be a subscription model for international users only, but I find it hard to believe that Afreeca simply made a "mistake" and don't have a team of financial and marketing specialists whose job is precisely determining the viability and profitability of various products and services. There would, of course, be an initial investment into a service of this nature, which in turn would require English-speaking customer service and other longterm expenses. This would also immediately alienate all of the international viewers who can't afford a subscription, who can't use the Afreeca platform consistently, etc. To assume that they didn't consider how to profit from English casts is horribly naive IMO - especially given the fact that Artosis said that him and Tasteless have been trying to negotiate with Afreeca for a while, presumably months. Do you think that Afreeca just waved their proverbial hand at them without considering their arguments (or without having already considered them)?
No organization of such size would make a decision to stop a service they already provide arbitrarily. The more I consider the overall situation, the more I get the impression that Afreeca has provided 10 seasons of English entertainment at a loss, and after going over the numbers, decided it wasn't worth it. Not that one day they just up and said, "Hey, let's just make a bunch of English-speaking chobos on the internet upset!"
You're taking a pretty narrow view on the matter though.
You're assuming that ASL in English can only exist if Artosis and Tasteless are casting it.I beg to differ. Sure it might seem that way given how popular the casters are but in all reality ASL can be brought in English to an international audience at a pretty low cost too. So low that Afreeca might think to themselves: "Huh? Why bother"
The "Why bother?" is pretty disturbing if Afreeca considers themselves a competent online streaming platform. We live in the era where sharks live and breathe for the next 'hit'.
Imagine that in 2 years SC2 dies and SC1 has some crazy boom and a lot of popular streamers start playing it and the scene takes off. Sure, rather unlikely but there's still a possibility in there.
In that case imagine being Afreeca and losing an incredible opportunity to instill yourself as a leading organizer in that space. Pretty huge blunder to make when the cost of just maintaining at least a footprint in the scene could be as cheap as hiring some rando's to cast on some global streaming platform and then take a cut off of the profits, if any.
This part I have huge trouble understanding. The part about people being "upset" because they've lost their favorite casting duo for an event is expected and find rather meh, especially in today's age.
Well, they are offering a clean feed, so anyone who wants to cast it for free can do so - while still supporting Afreeca's services. That seems to be a decent compromise for them financially and in terms of providing something to the foreign community?
In a vacuum, yes, that would be the case but history showed us that English-language viewers do not watch Afreeca even if there are exclusive events that otherwise would garner appreciable viewership on something like youtube.
Having this data and still not allowing for an alternative way to watch their events is self-sabotage in the year of 2021.
On March 12 2021 06:32 Gorsameth wrote: You show up in metrics, that is what matters. The Korean advertisers that see the number of people on the platform likely are not going to look to do at how big a % is foreigners who are useless.
Advertisers might simply ask Afreeca, what is the Korean viewership numbers. Assuming Afreeca is honest (good business sense), they would not be be including foreign viewership.
Alternatively, Afreeca might quote numbers to attract advertisers but once again, Afreeca would not include foreign viewership numbers, assuming they are an ethical company (which I am sure they are).
While metrics is a big part of the story, I do think advertisers would be interested in other data such as demographic and location.
I do take your point however that the adverts display throughout the entire Afreeca platform. So, some advertisers may make decisions based on simply the total viewership figure which I assume Afrreeca makes public.
Seems like we're going backwards in time to the konadora/livestream.com times. Sad to hear this but as long as the tournaments themselves can continue, one can't really complain.
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
Eh, its sort of a valid question if you think about it.
Advertisement middlemen are really smart these days and pay a lot of attention to the demographic of the viewer-base. Targeting ads at the right people is a metric.
What's more problematic is that Afreeca can't find a cost effective way to monetize their product to an international audience. Sure it won't bring them any huge returns but completely dismissing that market seems like a huge mistake.
I think this whole situation is also due to a language and culture barrier.
This is ignoring the cost of providing the service. We would somehow need to generate enough value to pay Tastosis as well as all of the costs that go into providing the cast - camera and audio crew, set construction, make-up, bandwidth, etc. Furthermore, I read during the Gillette-sponsored tournament (I forget which one it was now) that the advertiser is Gillette of Korea, meaning that even if you go to the grocery store and buy a hundred Gillette products, the Korean sponsor doesn't get any return. I imagine this is the situation for most of their advertisers and sponsors.
So, what would be the way to generate revenue? I guess there could be a subscription model for international users only, but I find it hard to believe that Afreeca simply made a "mistake" and don't have a team of financial and marketing specialists whose job is precisely determining the viability and profitability of various products and services. There would, of course, be an initial investment into a service of this nature, which in turn would require English-speaking customer service and other longterm expenses. This would also immediately alienate all of the international viewers who can't afford a subscription, who can't use the Afreeca platform consistently, etc. To assume that they didn't consider how to profit from English casts is horribly naive IMO - especially given the fact that Artosis said that him and Tasteless have been trying to negotiate with Afreeca for a while, presumably months. Do you think that Afreeca just waved their proverbial hand at them without considering their arguments (or without having already considered them)?
No organization of such size would make a decision to stop a service they already provide arbitrarily. The more I consider the overall situation, the more I get the impression that Afreeca has provided 10 seasons of English entertainment at a loss, and after going over the numbers, decided it wasn't worth it. Not that one day they just up and said, "Hey, let's just make a bunch of English-speaking chobos on the internet upset!"
You're taking a pretty narrow view on the matter though.
You're assuming that ASL in English can only exist if Artosis and Tasteless are casting it.I beg to differ. Sure it might seem that way given how popular the casters are but in all reality ASL can be brought in English to an international audience at a pretty low cost too. So low that Afreeca might think to themselves: "Huh? Why bother"
The "Why bother?" is pretty disturbing if Afreeca considers themselves a competent online streaming platform. We live in the era where sharks live and breathe for the next 'hit'.
Imagine that in 2 years SC2 dies and SC1 has some crazy boom and a lot of popular streamers start playing it and the scene takes off. Sure, rather unlikely but there's still a possibility in there.
In that case imagine being Afreeca and losing an incredible opportunity to instill yourself as a leading organizer in that space. Pretty huge blunder to make when the cost of just maintaining at least a footprint in the scene could be as cheap as hiring some rando's to cast on some global streaming platform and then take a cut off of the profits, if any.
This part I have huge trouble understanding. The part about people being "upset" because they've lost their favorite casting duo for an event is expected and find rather meh, especially in today's age.
Well, they are offering a clean feed, so anyone who wants to cast it for free can do so - while still supporting Afreeca's services. That seems to be a decent compromise for them financially and in terms of providing something to the foreign community?
In a vacuum, yes, that would be the case but history showed us that English-language viewers do not watch Afreeca even if there are exclusive events that otherwise would garner appreciable viewership on something like youtube.
Having this data and still not allowing for an alternative way to watch their events is self-sabotage in the year of 2021.
I do agree that there is the potential for this to be harmful in the long run if there were to be some Brood War (2nd? 3rd?) renaissance, but that's just hypothetical and while the inevitable collapse of SC2 is certainly a promising catalyst, I think the fact that RM is practically abandonware at this point makes it seem unlikely. We are in an incontrovertible ebb in BW's history, just as we were 10 years ago. The scene contracts, personalities, players, and viewers are lost. It is practically the natural order of things at this point.
As it stands, I find it hard to estimate this as anything but a financially sound move. Bird in hand vs two in the bush or whatever. Supporting an English cast is taxing for them right now. And, if some BW boom does happen, I don't see why it'd be impossible for them to just jump back on the bandwagon while still being the premier provider of BW content in the world. No need to throw money away in the present while praying for a brighter tomorrow when the forecast is rain.
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
Eh, its sort of a valid question if you think about it.
Advertisement middlemen are really smart these days and pay a lot of attention to the demographic of the viewer-base. Targeting ads at the right people is a metric.
What's more problematic is that Afreeca can't find a cost effective way to monetize their product to an international audience. Sure it won't bring them any huge returns but completely dismissing that market seems like a huge mistake.
I think this whole situation is also due to a language and culture barrier.
This is ignoring the cost of providing the service. We would somehow need to generate enough value to pay Tastosis as well as all of the costs that go into providing the cast - camera and audio crew, set construction, make-up, bandwidth, etc. Furthermore, I read during the Gillette-sponsored tournament (I forget which one it was now) that the advertiser is Gillette of Korea, meaning that even if you go to the grocery store and buy a hundred Gillette products, the Korean sponsor doesn't get any return. I imagine this is the situation for most of their advertisers and sponsors.
So, what would be the way to generate revenue? I guess there could be a subscription model for international users only, but I find it hard to believe that Afreeca simply made a "mistake" and don't have a team of financial and marketing specialists whose job is precisely determining the viability and profitability of various products and services. There would, of course, be an initial investment into a service of this nature, which in turn would require English-speaking customer service and other longterm expenses. This would also immediately alienate all of the international viewers who can't afford a subscription, who can't use the Afreeca platform consistently, etc. To assume that they didn't consider how to profit from English casts is horribly naive IMO - especially given the fact that Artosis said that him and Tasteless have been trying to negotiate with Afreeca for a while, presumably months. Do you think that Afreeca just waved their proverbial hand at them without considering their arguments (or without having already considered them)?
No organization of such size would make a decision to stop a service they already provide arbitrarily. The more I consider the overall situation, the more I get the impression that Afreeca has provided 10 seasons of English entertainment at a loss, and after going over the numbers, decided it wasn't worth it. Not that one day they just up and said, "Hey, let's just make a bunch of English-speaking chobos on the internet upset!"
You're taking a pretty narrow view on the matter though.
You're assuming that ASL in English can only exist if Artosis and Tasteless are casting it.I beg to differ. Sure it might seem that way given how popular the casters are but in all reality ASL can be brought in English to an international audience at a pretty low cost too. So low that Afreeca might think to themselves: "Huh? Why bother"
The "Why bother?" is pretty disturbing if Afreeca considers themselves a competent online streaming platform. We live in the era where sharks live and breathe for the next 'hit'.
Imagine that in 2 years SC2 dies and SC1 has some crazy boom and a lot of popular streamers start playing it and the scene takes off. Sure, rather unlikely but there's still a possibility in there.
In that case imagine being Afreeca and losing an incredible opportunity to instill yourself as a leading organizer in that space. Pretty huge blunder to make when the cost of just maintaining at least a footprint in the scene could be as cheap as hiring some rando's to cast on some global streaming platform and then take a cut off of the profits, if any.
This part I have huge trouble understanding. The part about people being "upset" because they've lost their favorite casting duo for an event is expected and find rather meh, especially in today's age.
Well, they are offering a clean feed, so anyone who wants to cast it for free can do so - while still supporting Afreeca's services. That seems to be a decent compromise for them financially and in terms of providing something to the foreign community?
"compromise for them financially" What? They couldnt figure out how to get anything out of an english cast, so an third party streamer is supposed to get them anywhere?
If I understood you correctly, my hypothesis is that it is precisely because their English casts didn't generate a justifiable revenue that they have cut them, which results in a net benefit to their bottom line, while still providing an incredibly cheap-to-produce resource for those who may want to pick up the mantle - while still utilizing their services and adding to their overall numbers. That's what I meant by compromise, not that EnglishCaster4561 will somehow bring them a sizeable profit.
That's a shame. Just found this news when I was looking for dates/times for the new season. I hope there's some updates about Tastosis' plans to cast it, soon. And it would be even better if it was live as a simulcast to the Korean stream.
I also had days where afreecatv was unusable for me and barely even opened for me. So simulcast and then vods (that you can download) would probably the best, since it has to be on that platform.
Can someone provide a link to the stream where Arti explains this? He apparently found out about the announcement whilst live streaming; but I can't find it...
On March 14 2021 21:11 Zekkezgz wrote: Can someone provide a link to the stream where Arti explains this? He apparently found out about the announcement whilst live streaming; but I can't find it...
I read his posts (Jealous) and skim the others. Better to assume good intent and be disappointed than always assume the worst anyhow.
Not surprised but still a bit disappointed by the lack of communication from Afreeca. Not that I blame them for focusing on the parts of their business they deem worthwhile.
Was just looking forward to ASL for Tastosis casting but I will find other ways to enjoy.
Edit: for clarity I submitted a qurery via the link in OP regarding casting and more specific rules and limitations.
There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
There's still tons of excuse. I love Scan and Nyoken but they're not as entertaining nor will they have as high level production as the original broadcast. Analysis isn't everything.
Note: I'll still watch, but to say theres no excuse seems silly to me.
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
There's still tons of excuse. I love Scan and Nyoken but they're not as entertaining nor will they have as high level production as the original broadcast. Analysis isn't everything.
Note: I'll still watch, but to say theres no excuse seems silly to me.
If the main problem was the presence of English cast, that problem is solved.
If the main problem is that it's anyone but Artosis/Tasteless, that's a problem in and of itself IMO. It should be about the players and the game, the caster is just the translator of the screen into your brain, so to speak. There are of course casters with bad voices or bad knowledge or ones that don't crack as many people-pleasing jokes, ones that are less likely to become cult of personality idols, I get that. But ultimately, it should be about the games and their interpretability for the viewer IMO. In that regard, I expect Scan/Nyoken to bring some of the highest level content we have possibly ever seen as English-speakers. All bells and whistles aside, of course.
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
There's still tons of excuse. I love Scan and Nyoken but they're not as entertaining nor will they have as high level production as the original broadcast. Analysis isn't everything.
Note: I'll still watch, but to say theres no excuse seems silly to me.
If the main problem was the presence of English cast, that problem is solved.
If the main problem is that it's anyone but Artosis/Tasteless, that's a problem in and of itself IMO. It should be about the players and the game, the caster is just the translator of the screen into your brain, so to speak. There are of course casters with bad voices or bad knowledge or ones that don't crack as many people-pleasing jokes, ones that are less likely to become cult of personality idols, I get that. But ultimately, it should be about the games and their interpretability for the viewer IMO. In that regard, I expect Scan/Nyoken to bring some of the highest level content we have possibly ever seen as English-speakers. All bells and whistles aside, of course.
"It should be" is directly in line with what you want with your content. Many others put "it should be" in front of many different things. I watch korean broadcasts a lot, but the click rate for me of korean only broadcasts is lower because sometimes I like to just turn my brain off a little while watching.
It goes back to what I was talking about with that other poster. There's a lot of things that people prefer, the more they are lined up the better. Does english commentary matter if they constantly miss the action while observing? Does it matter if they bring up all the wrong points? What if their mics aren't all that great or horribly balanced? What if the quality of the stream is awful? What if they dont drive a good narrative, have good stats, or only talk about the game in front of them? Do they mention the same opener 80 times in a row, or do they fill the air with some quips and funny things?
the more things you check off on this list, the more people will watch. In-depth analysis and timings are great, but great commentators know when to bring in the analysis and when to let peoples brains rest up a little.
I'm happy to have english commentary, and i think community casters filling that void is great. but again, if the objective is reaching a broader audience its going to be a lot more than just "It should be about the games" because i bet i could show some previous ASL matches, act like it's CPL, and get 100 comments about "wow these guys sux"
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
There's still tons of excuse. I love Scan and Nyoken but they're not as entertaining nor will they have as high level production as the original broadcast. Analysis isn't everything.
Note: I'll still watch, but to say theres no excuse seems silly to me.
If the main problem was the presence of English cast, that problem is solved.
If the main problem is that it's anyone but Artosis/Tasteless, that's a problem in and of itself IMO. It should be about the players and the game, the caster is just the translator of the screen into your brain, so to speak. There are of course casters with bad voices or bad knowledge or ones that don't crack as many people-pleasing jokes, ones that are less likely to become cult of personality idols, I get that. But ultimately, it should be about the games and their interpretability for the viewer IMO. In that regard, I expect Scan/Nyoken to bring some of the highest level content we have possibly ever seen as English-speakers. All bells and whistles aside, of course.
"It should be" is directly in line with what you want with your content. Many others put "it should be" in front of many different things. I watch korean broadcasts a lot, but the click rate for me of korean only broadcasts is lower because sometimes I like to just turn my brain off a little while watching.
It goes back to what I was talking about with that other poster. There's a lot of things that people prefer, the more they are lined up the better. Does english commentary matter if they constantly miss the action while observing? Does it matter if they bring up all the wrong points? What if their mics aren't all that great or horribly balanced? What if the quality of the stream is awful? What if they dont drive a good narrative, have good stats, or only talk about the game in front of them? Do they mention the same opener 80 times in a row, or do they fill the air with some quips and funny things?
the more things you check off on this list, the more people will watch. In-depth analysis and timings are great, but great commentators know when to bring in the analysis and when to let peoples brains rest up a little.
I'm happy to have english commentary, and i think community casters filling that void is great. but again, if the objective is reaching a broader audience its going to be a lot more than just "It should be about the games" because i bet i could show some previous ASL matches, act like it's CPL, and get 100 comments about "wow these guys sux"
The broader audience is the SC2 fanbase and Fortnite fans. So aiming for that kind of thing is a net negative anyways. If you value your brain cells in any kind of way that is.
EPT
it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
