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On March 10 2021 08:50 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 00:53 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 10 2021 00:08 whaski wrote:On March 09 2021 23:09 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 09 2021 21:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:
Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods. Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted? Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem. I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without. Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client. ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still. I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa. I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015? Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued. I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days. The BW scene was quite interesting during those dark days. In comparison to now where there is a ton of BW pros that are streaming as well as competitions from ASL to ASTL to KCM etc... with official english casts and Korean community members that give us inside news, most of the old tournaments then were online-only such as BCTV, 41 Starleague, LoveTV etc... and featured lots of amateurs with several pros at best. The scene was small, but it was like the old wild west where there was a lot of energy and desire to build things up mixed with some chaos. The 2013-2015 era is typically referred to as the Sonic era because aside from those tourneys mentioned above, a tournament organizer named Sonic started organizing lots of online tournaments with the eventual culmination of his efforts being a large offline tournament that became incredibly popular, prestigious and felt like it was the direct successor of OSL even if it only lasted for 2 seasons on OGN (Afreeca took over afterwards with VNSL into ASL). If there was no SSL, there would've been no ASL or any official english casts. This was at a time where as mentioned, we used to watch twitch streams of afreeca streams since afreeca streams were unwatchable for pretty much all foreigners compared to now where you have access to so much more. To avoid going more offtopic, if you or anyone else want more details about Sonic and SSL, I wrote a good summary about this years ago: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/520795-sonics-legacy-ssls-lasting-impact
Thank you I really enjoyed your piece, and I don't mean to spread disinformation or be off topic. I had no idea of the legacy of Sonic and his efforts keeping Broodwar together in that era. I've been watching so many of those players stream and had no idea they competed relatively recently within that ecosystem which started from scratch and became momentous. I would like to say more, but I've said enough. I emailed my questions to afreeca which is what I should have done in the first place and hopefully I'm just being paranoid because I've been awake for 24+hours and using my TL account for the first time since 2012.
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On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy.
What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol
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On March 10 2021 07:17 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 07:15 Lorch wrote:On March 10 2021 04:53 Jealous wrote:On March 10 2021 04:51 bracala wrote:
Thx bro i watched those WCGs! Did they cast some OSL,MSL or some other korean tournaments? I believe they may have casted GSL (GomTV), I don't think they did OSL or MSL. I'm not exactly an expert, though, so someone can correct me if I'm mistaken. Tasteless did GomTV Classic Seasons 1-3 (actually the reason he moved to Korea) until Kespa decided that "3 tournaments + proleague is too much for our players so they dont get to play in gom anymore". Afaik Artosis casted some Proleague before SC2 came out. I think the Gom situation was more complicated than that because it was individual teams that pulled out first, I believe it was the telecom sponsored ones first because Gom was trying to be a competitor or something? I forget the details but it was something like that. But, thanks for correcting me! I do remember now it was SDM + Tasteless for Gom, at least some of it.
Any links with those GOMTV classic Seasons games?
EDIT: I found it. Here is the list on youtube if anyone is interested
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTRd8mwhxT1efajADvt3hDm09QGGT-t4S
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On March 10 2021 08:56 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 07:44 Gorsameth wrote:On March 10 2021 07:37 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 23:09 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 09 2021 21:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:
Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods. Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted? Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem. I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without. Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client. ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still. I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa. Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive. An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless. I am confused. Don't they directly say in the OP that anyone can restream the games on Afreeca? There is no 'license' situation. Show nested quote +Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. It says their own AfreecaTV channels. This implies exclusivity. If you stream ASL on Twitch/YouTube you could run into problems potentially if you don't have permission, denied permission or you attempt to monetize ASL content without consent. Whenever ASL is streamed on BJ channels like hero, Best, Zero or anyone on Twitch they disable Twitch streams. If ASL is cancelling english afreeca, and closing YouTube I hope it means nothing and they can be taken at face value when saying broadcasting to their own fans through clean feed is encouraged and not a problem. Yes, you have to stream on Afreeca, it says it right there. Yes that means you can't stream on Twitch/Youtube and no you’re not going to get a license to do so (atleast no 'amateur’ caster will be able to offer enough money to convince them otherwise).
Again, there is no confusion here. Anyone who wants to stream and commentate on this can do so if they use Afreeca. And won't be able to do so if they don't.
Yes its exclusive to Afreeca and anyone can stream it there.
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This is just another reason our community must self-organize better. So that it is not just a sequence of forum messages. But real solutions, plans, money, etc. Not only supporting the current scene, but developing a better one.
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On March 10 2021 07:37 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 23:09 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 09 2021 21:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:
Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods. Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted? Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem. I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without. Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client. ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still. I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa. Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive. An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless. Why would an exclusive english stream enable the best quality production and content? What do you mean by vitalising?
We know how an official ASL stream looks like, they are now on their 11th ASL tournament. I watched their wildcard placement live stream a few days ago at 1080p. It works perfectly fine.
On March 10 2021 10:17 SchAmToo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy. What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments which is ASL right now and has been for the past few years. If you consider yourself as one of your own self proclaimed children I am certainly not asking anyone to think of you.I don't udnerstand why anyone would want an exclusive English stream. ASL has always allowed restreams and recast of their live streams, English or otherwise. You may not be interested in casting ASL but why would you suddenly seek to deny others who happen to speak English to restream ASL?
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On March 11 2021 07:46 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 07:37 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 23:09 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 09 2021 21:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:
Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods. Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted? Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem. I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without. Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client. ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still. I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa. Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive. An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless. Why would an exclusive english stream enable the best quality production and content? What do you mean by vitalising? We know how an official ASL stream looks like, they are now on their 11th ASL tournament. I watched their wildcard placement live stream a few days ago at 1080p. It works perfectly fine. Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 10:17 SchAmToo wrote:On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy. What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments which is ASL right now and has been for the past few years. If you consider yourself as one of your own self proclaimed children I am certainly not asking anyone to think of you.I don't udnerstand why anyone would want an exclusive English stream. ASL has always allowed restreams and recast of their live streams, English or otherwise. You may not be interested in casting ASL but why would you suddenly seek to deny others who happen to speak English to restream ASL?
Your ignorance here is forgivable because anyone who doesn't follow the foreign competitive scene would be unlikely to know Schamtoo (though many high level Koreans have participated in his NUMEROUS Have At You tours [HAY]), however your argument is, based on how I understood it, not sound.
This is my interpretation:
1. You say this will kill foreign casting scene.
2. Schamtoo says it won't affect much because he has never relied on Afreeca in the first place.
3. Your counter argument of "this is still bad," while true, is not an actual response to what was said.
It feels like you moved the goalposts a little. The reality is that the vast majority of active foreign casters over the past several years have had nothing to do with Afreeca or ASL/ASTL so none of this really affects them. Beyond that, this was all borne from a tangential discussion that was based on the posts of someone who wrote a lot of words in a somewhat overly verbose way, seemingly beyond their full command thereof, leaving a lot of room for nitpicking.
TL;DR: Schamtoo has done more than most for the foreign scene over the past few years, out of pocket and with many manhours invested, and his point is correct.
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No really, why would anyone want ASL to have an exclusive English cast? An English cast yes, but to make it exclusive why? ASL has an English cast for the past few years and it was never exclusive, so why call for it out of the blue? I genuinely want to understand.
I never said it will kill off the foreign casting scene. When I wrote it will kill off all community English casters, I meant specifically for ASL. And yes an exclusive stream will kill off all other English casters for ASL. It's kind of the point of an exclusive stream. This is what I don't understand. Why call to make an English stream exclusive? It was never a condition of ASL stream. ASL has never made their English stream exclusive, they don't even make their Korean exclusive so why call for one now?
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On March 11 2021 08:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
No really, why would anyone want ASL to have an exclusive English cast? An English cast yes, but to make it exclusive why? ASL has an English cast for the past few years and it was never exclusive, so why call for it out of the blue? I genuinely want to understand.
I never said it will kill off the foreign casting scene. When I wrote it will kill off all community English casters, I meant specifically for ASL. And yes an exclusive stream will kill off all other English casters for ASL. It's kind of the point of an exclusive stream. This is what I don't understand. Why call to make an English stream exclusive? It was never a condition. ASL has never made their English stream exclusive, so why call for one now?
My initial read-through of Waldo's posts gave me the impression that they have a tenuous grasp of English, but consequent posts have highlighted one reason - official, high-level production value. I don't think anyone but Waldo is arguing FOR exclusive English casting rights. What the discussion has pivoted to is that even if there were exclusive casting rights, it wouldn't make much of an impact on foreign casters.
With your clarification though, of course that is a -> b logic, so no argument there. It just wasn't clear in your initial post that Schamtoo responded to IMO (don't mean to speak for the man).
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OK I get it. I reread the posts. I thought it was contextually obvious that I was speaking about ASL, but Schamtoo thought I was talking about the foreigner scene casting, which I quite honestly do not watch (sorry, I'm sure you guys do good work).
And perhaps Waldo has no idea what exclusive actually means, (it doesn't mean official or production value) but I would suppose that depends on Waldo to clarify.
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On March 11 2021 08:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
OK I get it. I reread the posts. I thought it was contextually obvious that I was speaking about ASL, but Schamtoo thought I was talking about the foreigner scene casting, which I quite honestly do not watch (sorry, I'm sure you guys do good work).
And perhaps Waldo has no idea what exclusive actually means, (it doesn't mean official or production value) but I would suppose that depends on Waldo to clarify.
All good 
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On March 11 2021 07:46 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 07:37 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 23:09 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 09 2021 21:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:
Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods. Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted? Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem. I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without. Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client. ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still. I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa. Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive. An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless. Why would an exclusive english stream enable the best quality production and content? What do you mean by vitalising? We know how an official ASL stream looks like, they are now on their 11th ASL tournament. I watched their wildcard placement live stream a few days ago at 1080p. It works perfectly fine. Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 10:17 SchAmToo wrote:On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy. What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments which is ASL right now and has been for the past few years. If you consider yourself as one of your own self proclaimed children I am certainly not asking anyone to think of you.I don't udnerstand why anyone would want an exclusive English stream. ASL has always allowed restreams and recast of their live streams, English or otherwise. You may not be interested in casting ASL but why would you suddenly seek to deny others who happen to speak English to restream ASL?
It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments
So, you only want highest quality tours, but care about community casters being killed off? I'm confused. Community casters don't have high quality streams, and if they do theyre operating at a HUGE loss $ wise.
Also, exclusive or not, others have been covering ASL games I think (SuperSaiyan? FalconPaladin? I think?)...
do you care about the games?
or the commentators?
If the commentator isn't observing perfectly does it matter it's a great game?
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On March 11 2021 07:46 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 07:37 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 23:09 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 09 2021 21:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:
Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods. Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted? Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem. I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without. Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client. ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still. I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa. Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive. An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless. Why would an exclusive english stream enable the best quality production and content? What do you mean by vitalising? We know how an official ASL stream looks like, they are now on their 11th ASL tournament. I watched their wildcard placement live stream a few days ago at 1080p. It works perfectly fine. Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 10:17 SchAmToo wrote:On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy. What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments which is ASL right now and has been for the past few years. If you consider yourself as one of your own self proclaimed children I am certainly not asking anyone to think of you.I don't udnerstand why anyone would want an exclusive English stream. ASL has always allowed restreams and recast of their live streams, English or otherwise. You may not be interested in casting ASL but why would you suddenly seek to deny others who happen to speak English to restream ASL?
Let's remove the term exclusive and ask the question again. Would having multiple english streams provide quality production and content. I believe that's up for a debate but In my opinion the answer is no. Vitalizing means allowing for growth parallel to content provided by ASL. We now know ASL has cut content for the english stream and neutered their YouTube feed, one can assume that they are not interested in catering to the foreign audience.
On March 11 2021 08:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
No really, why would anyone want ASL to have an exclusive English cast? An English cast yes, but to make it exclusive why? ASL has an English cast for the past few years and it was never exclusive, so why call for it out of the blue? I genuinely want to understand.
I never said it will kill off the foreign casting scene. When I wrote it will kill off all community English casters, I meant specifically for ASL. And yes an exclusive stream will kill off all other English casters for ASL. It's kind of the point of an exclusive stream. This is what I don't understand. Why call to make an English stream exclusive? It was never a condition of ASL stream. ASL has never made their English stream exclusive, they don't even make their Korean exclusive so why call for one now?
ASL contracted english speaking commentators to broadcast their content to a foreign audience. I believe that qualifies as exclusive. I've already answered your question and I qualified my statement by saying It's not something I want nor do I think it is the only option. The confusion begins with you believing exclusivity=exclusion, I reject the idea that "exclusive" will kill community casting, and the ideal as you believe it to exist never existed because before it was always the same business model of Afreeca sponsoring ASL and paying casters as well as providing a YouTube stream with production and VODS.
Anyone can restream ASL on Afreeca using any language. I believe it's counter-productive to make Afreeca the "exclusive" platform for ASL.
On March 10 2021 19:02 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2021 08:56 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 10 2021 07:44 Gorsameth wrote:On March 10 2021 07:37 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 23:09 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:On March 09 2021 21:59 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:
Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods. Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted? Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem. I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without. Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client. ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still. I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa. Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive. An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless. I am confused. Don't they directly say in the OP that anyone can restream the games on Afreeca? There is no 'license' situation. Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. It says their own AfreecaTV channels. This implies exclusivity. If you stream ASL on Twitch/YouTube you could run into problems potentially if you don't have permission, denied permission or you attempt to monetize ASL content without consent. Whenever ASL is streamed on BJ channels like hero, Best, Zero or anyone on Twitch they disable Twitch streams. If ASL is cancelling english afreeca, and closing YouTube I hope it means nothing and they can be taken at face value when saying broadcasting to their own fans through clean feed is encouraged and not a problem. Yes, you have to stream on Afreeca, it says it right there. Yes that means you can't stream on Twitch/Youtube and no you’re not going to get a license to do so (atleast no 'amateur’ caster will be able to offer enough money to convince them otherwise). Again, there is no confusion here. Anyone who wants to stream and commentate on this can do so if they use Afreeca. And won't be able to do so if they don't. Yes its exclusive to Afreeca and anyone can stream it there.
If both of you for example think this is a good thing then the confusion lies in me not articulating why this is bad, I believed it to be self-explanatory in the context of Broodwar and international growth.
On March 11 2021 08:27 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2021 08:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
No really, why would anyone want ASL to have an exclusive English cast? An English cast yes, but to make it exclusive why? ASL has an English cast for the past few years and it was never exclusive, so why call for it out of the blue? I genuinely want to understand.
I never said it will kill off the foreign casting scene. When I wrote it will kill off all community English casters, I meant specifically for ASL. And yes an exclusive stream will kill off all other English casters for ASL. It's kind of the point of an exclusive stream. This is what I don't understand. Why call to make an English stream exclusive? It was never a condition. ASL has never made their English stream exclusive, so why call for one now? My initial read-through of Waldo's posts gave me the impression that they have a tenuous grasp of English, but consequent posts have highlighted one reason - official, high-level production value. I don't think anyone but Waldo is arguing FOR exclusive English casting rights. What the discussion has pivoted to is that even if there were exclusive casting rights, it wouldn't make much of an impact on foreign casters. With your clarification though, of course that is a -> b logic, so no argument there. It just wasn't clear in your initial post that Schamtoo responded to IMO (don't mean to speak for the man).
I specifically stated in italics that I do not "want" what has been leveled against me, I'm simply arguing sporadically and out of context the many reasons why I believe for example having an "official" stream for "english and other languages" is a positive.
On March 11 2021 08:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
OK I get it. I reread the posts. I thought it was contextually obvious that I was speaking about ASL, but Schamtoo thought I was talking about the foreigner scene casting, which I quite honestly do not watch (sorry, I'm sure you guys do good work).
And perhaps Waldo has no idea what exclusive actually means, (it doesn't mean official or production value) but I would suppose that depends on Waldo to clarify.
Neither of us know what exclusivity means in context of a Korean owned business providing a service they have now cancelled. It would appear that they are cancelling the english stream and assuming they employ Tasteless and Artosis as well as the couple other foreign community casters who get paid for their work they are going to be making them cast games other than Broodwar.
With all of this being said I will clarify that having ASL pay casters to provide a service was a good thing. If ASL will not allow anyone outside of Afreeca.tv to stream ASL tournaments and/or commentate and upload those VOD's this is bad. ASL being the premier tournament in existence new and existing viewers would be deprived of a non-Korean production.
This seems like a downward trajectory; ASL closed their Twitch a while ago, they have now shuttered the english production and ceased streaming on YouTube. I understand the business decision, but I would say that Twitch ASL games would reach thousands of viewers, as well as the thousands of viewers on YouTube. Between those numbers opportunity is present for growth and expansion however minuscule by comparison to the greater esports ecosystem.
I'm not complaining or casting aspersions to be simply negative. At the end of the day we still get to watch ASL. I'm just disappointed and I don't believe it's even a good decision to begin with. If Broodwar is truly niche outside of Korea and it's simply not profitable to employ foreign casters or provide a foreign production then so be it. I will say in closing that even if this is true foreign producers in whatever capacity they exist currently in my opinion would be punished because community casting however passionate would have less incentive and an even harder time breaking even or turning a profit. If that's even a thing. I'll put it this way - I would rather watch a restream with an english chat or a commentated VOD on youtube then sit through a Korean broadcast on a Korean website, and it's not because I don't like Korean commentary or the Korean website.
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Hope for some info soon,ASL is near! I see on ASL S11 liquipedia page there is spanish broadcast! Can someone explain me why spanish and no english? I mean english is worldwide,spanish not so...
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I would heavily prefer people could cast the ASL on any platform, it would greatly increase the chance of it actually happening and the exposure in general. Being tied to only Afreeca is a bad thing, but I can't argue that it is unreasonable for Afreeca to want their tournament to be broadcast on their service.
Allowing anyone to restream, so long as it is on their service, is already more generous then many others.
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On March 11 2021 17:53 bracala wrote:
Hope for some info soon,ASL is near! I see on ASL S11 liquipedia page there is spanish broadcast! Can someone explain me why spanish and no english? I mean english is worldwide,spanish not so...
There is a cast in Spanish since the ASL10 season.
The casters are Deathfate (Spain) and Jan (Peru), Both SC casters, with +10000 followers and +30000 respectively in YouTube channel.
https://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/69228129
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Do you think Afreeca will bother to take down any Youtube videos?
As stated ealier in this thread, they're using all sorts of music without caring about copyright laws and it's would be free advertising for them anyway
Afreeca is hopeless for me, it lags like hell and it's not user friendly on any language except korean.
Took me 30 sec to load the site now and I'm not even trying to watch any vods.
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On March 11 2021 19:25 masoka82 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2021 17:53 bracala wrote:
Hope for some info soon,ASL is near! I see on ASL S11 liquipedia page there is spanish broadcast! Can someone explain me why spanish and no english? I mean english is worldwide,spanish not so... There is a cast in Spanish since the ASL10 season. The casters are Deathfate (Spain) and Jan (Peru), Both SC casters, with +10000 followers and +30000 respectively in YouTube channel. https://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/69228129
Brood War has had a strong Hispanic/Latino following for a long time so it is great that there are prominent communities and casters in 2021 Salud <3
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On March 11 2021 20:07 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2021 19:25 masoka82 wrote:On March 11 2021 17:53 bracala wrote:
Hope for some info soon,ASL is near! I see on ASL S11 liquipedia page there is spanish broadcast! Can someone explain me why spanish and no english? I mean english is worldwide,spanish not so... There is a cast in Spanish since the ASL10 season. The casters are Deathfate (Spain) and Jan (Peru), Both SC casters, with +10000 followers and +30000 respectively in YouTube channel. https://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/69228129 Brood War has had a strong Hispanic/Latino following for a long time so it is great that there are prominent communities and casters in 2021 Salud <3
Yea its great dont get me wrong i just wondering is that official cast in afreeca studio like Tasstosis or they cast from home? And do they cast on AfreecaTV?
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On March 11 2021 20:14 bracala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2021 20:07 Jealous wrote:On March 11 2021 19:25 masoka82 wrote:On March 11 2021 17:53 bracala wrote:
Hope for some info soon,ASL is near! I see on ASL S11 liquipedia page there is spanish broadcast! Can someone explain me why spanish and no english? I mean english is worldwide,spanish not so... There is a cast in Spanish since the ASL10 season. The casters are Deathfate (Spain) and Jan (Peru), Both SC casters, with +10000 followers and +30000 respectively in YouTube channel. https://vod.afreecatv.com/PLAYER/STATION/69228129 Brood War has had a strong Hispanic/Latino following for a long time so it is great that there are prominent communities and casters in 2021 Salud <3 Yea its great dont get me wrong i just wondering is that official cast in afreeca studio like Tasstosis or they cast from home? And do they cast on AfreecaTV?
I don't have that information but hopefully masoka does ^^
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EPT
