On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
Ah I see, I had no idea. It's fitting to label it the dark age, and just looking at the wiki I can see most of the players who stream were competing as well. I've spent so much time watching streams like last, hero, I remember watching minus)eagle when he streamed a little learning everything I could, gonna watch these Sonic vods!
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
That's fun. From a different perspective though, you should think about if there's a possibility that your baskets are everywhere in the neighbourhood and nobody needs them anymore. Obviously that doesn't translate to a digital service such as afreeca, which can generate more content from a wide array of potential games, but you chose that analogy in a digital world. Not to mention, no half talented salesman would entirely ignore the population of die-hard angolians, in the sense he wouldn't check out potential forms of solutions. Might be you can still generate some earnings if you find cheaper ways to ship or allow them the manufacturing of their own baskets after buying a license or something. After all, you want your business to grow, regardless if there are other basket manufacturers on the market or not. If you never change anything, chances are high sales will stagnate, drop and you will die before you can cash out.
Point is, I never understood the "Blizz just acts like cooperation" or only slightly different "Korean just does $$$". It's not impossible to find alternatives or show good will, even if it's only to brand yourself as fun coperation or some new age hippie bullshit. The numbers Tastosis show are not so small I'd throw away any chances without second and third though, 'cause the costs are comparably small in marketing terms.
I might be wrong tho and Tastosis both drive around in their Porsches and live the good life.
Good point, the analogy isn't perfect. Allow me to make a better one: ...
Yeah, it's fun and I just replied to trigger you. No need to derail, for everything else, see Schamtoo's response.
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
That's fun. From a different perspective though, you should think about if there's a possibility that your baskets are everywhere in the neighbourhood and nobody needs them anymore. Obviously that doesn't translate to a digital service such as afreeca, which can generate more content from a wide array of potential games, but you chose that analogy in a digital world. Not to mention, no half talented salesman would entirely ignore the population of die-hard angolians, in the sense he wouldn't check out potential forms of solutions. Might be you can still generate some earnings if you find cheaper ways to ship or allow them the manufacturing of their own baskets after buying a license or something. After all, you want your business to grow, regardless if there are other basket manufacturers on the market or not. If you never change anything, chances are high sales will stagnate, drop and you will die before you can cash out.
Point is, I never understood the "Blizz just acts like cooperation" or only slightly different "Korean just does $$$". It's not impossible to find alternatives or show good will, even if it's only to brand yourself as fun coperation or some new age hippie bullshit. The numbers Tastosis show are not so small I'd throw away any chances without second and third though, 'cause the costs are comparably small in marketing terms.
While I don't disagree with the idea that there is enough of a foreign base that would potentially be willing to pay for tastosis and that Afreeca should explore the option, the outrage that some posters exhibit towards Afreeca's goodwill of close to 5 years (remember that Afreeca also paid BD/xkcd to cast before tastosis stole their thunder lol) due to their decision is something, and this is the primary motivating factor as to why Jealous has been coming up with all these analogies. I think it's understandable to be upset, but keeping it in check and trying to understand why they made the decision and how to move forward from here is the best option here.
I'm neutral about the situation, as I can see there might be logical reasons to end EN Casting. I also see the reasons are probably not totally rational and born out of some sort of ignorance. I haven't seen much "over the top", if a company is offended by those replies, they're quite thin-skinned.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
Ah I see, I had no idea. It's fitting to label it the dark age, and just looking at the wiki I can see most of the players who stream were competing as well. I've spent so much time watching streams like last, hero, I remember watching minus)eagle when he streamed a little learning everything I could, gonna watch these Sonic vods!
Ye, as you can see from the wiki, it started off as an amateur tournament during the very end of the Kespa era and as time went on more and more pros joined as they quit sc2 and became streamers on afreeca. The last season (or maybe even the last two) ended up being broadcast on OGN, which I still find to be quite impressive for something that started off as a small amateur tournament.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
On those days it was luxury even watch ex-pros play. There were a lot of small tourneys that produced awesome games and storylines (Sea vs Killer, return of Bisu, Alphago etc) but for most part we had to use restreams, additional scripts etc to even watch laddergames. In this enviroment Afreeca gave players generous streaming deals (acording likes of Bisu and Sea). Finally VANT starleague started the ASL-era. I just feel that everyone takes this way too far without knowing how there was great scene without english casts or streams. And moreover it should not taken granted. For me it is the players you should be watching but whatever I quess.
I agree. Considering how it started for a lot of the veterans of this scene when people complain it can get pretty dull. I've tried to say as little as possible navigating the nuance of this discussion and bridging the divide between games, community and wider esports scene as I perceive it.
As much as people may be taking it too far, myself included. It comes from a good place; but also from a sense of dignity for the game and how broadcasting has improved since days of old. Some people can't even handle retro graphics, so they will be hard pressed to tune into sub-par from a technical perspective broadcasting. ASL cancelled a high quality english stream that's about it, I think if we want to watch StarCraft we'll be able to watch StarCraft. I just sincerely hope that it's not a negative experience, if the Shinee thread is any example of how useless rumor and innuendo is I don't know what else is.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
Ah I see, I had no idea. It's fitting to label it the dark age, and just looking at the wiki I can see most of the players who stream were competing as well. I've spent so much time watching streams like last, hero, I remember watching minus)eagle when he streamed a little learning everything I could, gonna watch these Sonic vods!
Ye, as you can see from the wiki, it started off as an amateur tournament during the very end of the Kespa era and as time went on more and more pros joined as they quit sc2 and became streamers on afreeca. The last season (or maybe even the last two) ended up being broadcast on OGN, which I still find to be quite impressive for something that started off as a small amateur tournament.
It would be something to witness a resurgence in the player pool of broodwar. I don't understand how a game so popular fell off amongst Koreans. It's not an understatement to say BW is the hardest and most competitive e-sport of all time, yet it's been eclipsed by less mechanically and strategically in-depth games.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
Ah I see, I had no idea. It's fitting to label it the dark age, and just looking at the wiki I can see most of the players who stream were competing as well. I've spent so much time watching streams like last, hero, I remember watching minus)eagle when he streamed a little learning everything I could, gonna watch these Sonic vods!
Ye, as you can see from the wiki, it started off as an amateur tournament during the very end of the Kespa era and as time went on more and more pros joined as they quit sc2 and became streamers on afreeca. The last season (or maybe even the last two) ended up being broadcast on OGN, which I still find to be quite impressive for something that started off as a small amateur tournament.
It would be something to witness a resurgence in the player pool of broodwar. I don't understand how a game so popular fell off amongst Koreans. It's not an understatement to say BW is the hardest and most competitive e-sport of all time, yet it's been eclipsed by less mechanically and strategically in-depth games.
Has it really fallen all that far?
It still seems really rather popular just people prefer to watch legends of the game streaming over tournaments. Not to say tournaments don’t have popularity either.
Any new talent I mean, why bother? The structure isn’t there to compete with the popularity of BW’s gods streaming and it’s not there to try to close a skill gap with a cohort who all had a lot of latent talent allied to years of a full time collaborative practice regime.
BW being hard is only particularly relevant in enabling pretty huge skill gaps to occur. It’s like trying to pick up an instrument solo and trying to get a spot on a prestigious orchestra. Sure it’s potentially possible but vs the folks who went to a conservatory and have been playing for years and rubbing off other musicians it’s a gigantic mountain to overcome.
I sent a message through the link in the OP asking for a bit of clarification and info if I were to do my own casting.
Have yet to hear a response, but I suspect they would not allow me to upload anything outside of Afreeca which would be a big limiting factor in any interest to do so.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
Ah I see, I had no idea. It's fitting to label it the dark age, and just looking at the wiki I can see most of the players who stream were competing as well. I've spent so much time watching streams like last, hero, I remember watching minus)eagle when he streamed a little learning everything I could, gonna watch these Sonic vods!
Ye, as you can see from the wiki, it started off as an amateur tournament during the very end of the Kespa era and as time went on more and more pros joined as they quit sc2 and became streamers on afreeca. The last season (or maybe even the last two) ended up being broadcast on OGN, which I still find to be quite impressive for something that started off as a small amateur tournament.
It would be something to witness a resurgence in the player pool of broodwar. I don't understand how a game so popular fell off amongst Koreans. It's not an understatement to say BW is the hardest and most competitive e-sport of all time, yet it's been eclipsed by less mechanically and strategically in-depth games.
Has it really fallen all that far?
It still seems really rather popular just people prefer to watch legends of the game streaming over tournaments. Not to say tournaments don’t have popularity either.
Any new talent I mean, why bother? The structure isn’t there to compete with the popularity of BW’s gods streaming and it’s not there to try to close a skill gap with a cohort who all had a lot of latent talent allied to years of a full time collaborative practice regime.
BW being hard is only particularly relevant in enabling pretty huge skill gaps to occur. It’s like trying to pick up an instrument solo and trying to get a spot on a prestigious orchestra. Sure it’s potentially possible but vs the folks who went to a conservatory and have been playing for years and rubbing off other musicians it’s a gigantic mountain to overcome.
No, it's been great to watch all the pros stream gameplay for each race and duke it out weekly as well as have great competition through tournaments and sponsored matches. Talent within the game like you say is hard to flesh out, but Koreans had the reputation of pride and work ethic it's a little surprising thus far no new younger players came along, although I agree it's not like its an easy task; but still the younger or less experienced players by comparison within the scene have come along well relatively speaking.
It's probably easier to say that since the ending of Kespa, decline of SC2 within Korea and the return of those players to streaming and broodwar no new talent entered the scene the way things went up for LoL/OW. Not exactly familiar with how things have gone for the past several years within popular titles and esports in Korea and also pre&post covid. I'd also inquire into how exactly "Korean esports" has faired in comparison to the "global" esports banner. US/EU market seems to have really taken off with sponsors, streaming and tournaments it may have overtaken Korea a long time ago. I'm fairly out of the loop on this subject, but I've derailed this thread enough
On March 10 2021 04:22 bracala wrote: Can someone post some links with Brood War games before ASL with Artosis and Tastless as casters? What tournaments did they cast before ASL and KSL?
On March 10 2021 04:51 bracala wrote: Thx bro i watched those WCGs! Did they cast some OSL,MSL or some other korean tournaments?
I believe they may have casted GSL (GomTV), I don't think they did OSL or MSL. I'm not exactly an expert, though, so someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
On March 10 2021 04:51 bracala wrote: Thx bro i watched those WCGs! Did they cast some OSL,MSL or some other korean tournaments?
I believe they may have casted GSL (GomTV), I don't think they did OSL or MSL. I'm not exactly an expert, though, so someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.
Tasteless did GomTV Classic Seasons 1-3 (actually the reason he moved to Korea) until Kespa decided that "3 tournaments + proleague is too much for our players so they dont get to play in gom anymore". Afaik Artosis casted some Proleague before SC2 came out.
On March 10 2021 04:51 bracala wrote: Thx bro i watched those WCGs! Did they cast some OSL,MSL or some other korean tournaments?
I believe they may have casted GSL (GomTV), I don't think they did OSL or MSL. I'm not exactly an expert, though, so someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.
Tasteless did GomTV Classic Seasons 1-3 (actually the reason he moved to Korea) until Kespa decided that "3 tournaments + proleague is too much for our players so they dont get to play in gom anymore". Afaik Artosis casted some Proleague before SC2 came out.
I think the Gom situation was more complicated than that because it was individual teams that pulled out first, I believe it was the telecom sponsored ones first because Gom was trying to be a competitor or something? I forget the details but it was something like that.
But, thanks for correcting me! I do remember now it was SDM + Tasteless for Gom, at least some of it.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
I am confused.
Don't they directly say in the OP that anyone can restream the games on Afreeca? There is no 'license' situation.
^ I believe it's less so about the license and more so the ability to stream/upload the games on twitch and youtube. However, I also have a hard time seeing Afreeca approve this because we aren't talking about several hundred or thousand dollars here, but Afreeca has likely put in quite a lot of money to run this in the first place so they would need some hefty amounts in order to approve the use of their content on a competitor's website: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/525290-information-from-korea?page=33#651
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
The BW scene was quite interesting during those dark days. In comparison to now where there is a ton of BW pros that are streaming as well as competitions from ASL to ASTL to KCM etc... with official english casts and Korean community members that give us inside news, most of the old tournaments then were online-only such as BCTV, 41 Starleague, LoveTV etc... and featured lots of amateurs with several pros at best. The scene was small, but it was like the old wild west where there was a lot of energy and desire to build things up mixed with some chaos.
The 2013-2015 era is typically referred to as the Sonic era because aside from those tourneys mentioned above, a tournament organizer named Sonic started organizing lots of online tournaments with the eventual culmination of his efforts being a large offline tournament that became incredibly popular, prestigious and felt like it was the direct successor of OSL even if it only lasted for 2 seasons on OGN (Afreeca took over afterwards with VNSL into ASL). If there was no SSL, there would've been no ASL or any official english casts. This was at a time where as mentioned, we used to watch twitch streams of afreeca streams since afreeca streams were unwatchable for pretty much all foreigners compared to now where you have access to so much more. To avoid going more offtopic, if you or anyone else want more details about Sonic and SSL, I wrote a good summary about this years ago: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/520795-sonics-legacy-ssls-lasting-impact
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
I am confused.
Don't they directly say in the OP that anyone can restream the games on Afreeca? There is no 'license' situation.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels.
It says their own AfreecaTV channels. This implies exclusivity. If you stream ASL on Twitch/YouTube you could run into problems potentially if you don't have permission, denied permission or you attempt to monetize ASL content without consent.
Whenever ASL is streamed on BJ channels like hero, Best, Zero or anyone on Twitch they disable Twitch streams. If ASL is cancelling english afreeca, and closing YouTube I hope it means nothing and they can be taken at face value when saying broadcasting to their own fans through clean feed is encouraged and not a problem.
EPT
