It’s unfortunate for us today to announce that the ASL will no longer be supported in English.
It has been the most exciting adventure for us to share the ASL with fans all over the world. We thank you for all of your love and support over the years.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
On March 03 2021 11:23 Sasquatch wrote: Today is a sad day for Tastosis, and therefore the world :-(
i suspect Tasteless & Artosis have known this announcement was coming for some time. It also partially explains why they have been casting Valorant for AfreecaTV instead of casting BW events like ASTL 2.
On March 03 2021 11:23 Sasquatch wrote: Today is a sad day for Tastosis, and therefore the world :-(
i suspect Tasteless & Artosis have known this announcement was coming for some time. It also partially explains why they have been casting Valorant for AfreecaTV instead of casting BW events like ASTL 2.
Still a bit of a gut punch though.
Tosis just said on stream he asked them to let them know before they announced it and just found out they did on stream so pretty sure they kept them out of the loop either way its fucking bullshit
Artosis just said on stream that Afreeca didn't even tell them they had made a final decision before posting this announcement on TL :-(
Edit: Artosis clarified that it was supposed to be that they told them before they announced it, but they had been informed of the decision ahead of time.
According to Artosis on stream just now, eliminating ASL English was considered a year ago, but Artosis and Tasteless made a big effort and took a pay cut to keep it on. Unfortunately it wasn't enough this time around.
We need to come together as a community and petition Afreeca to bring it back. if we can get the whole weight of our community behind us im sure we can make change happen.
If not, let's hope that there will be an english cast on AfreecaTV.
1.Why not try to communicate with the foreign fans to see if something can be done in a more positive and organised way first? We have shown that foreign fans can raise funding when required to support this game.
2.Both Artosis and Tasteless stream BW anyway, it is their life passion. They should be in the discussion to find a way forward, maybe involving the foreign fans.
This feels extremely short sighted.
If this is not the time to unite and start a crowd funding effort for each season, friends, I don't know when it is.
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Dear Fans,
It’s unfortunate for us today to announce that the ASL will no longer be supported in English.
It has been the most exciting adventure for us to share the ASL with fans all over the world. We thank you for all of your love and support over the years.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
Thank you, AfreecaTV
Twitch partners are not allowed to have Afreeca TV accounts (Arty just said this on stream). Obviously, Artosis, Tasteless, and most (all?) foreign casters are going to be using Twitch since they are casting for an english speaking audience. Also, people like Artosis and Tasteless can't give up their Twitch Partner status just to cast ASL (since you guys aren't paying them anymore). So, this pretty much does nothing.
On March 03 2021 11:36 Sasquatch wrote: Artosis just said on stream that Afreeca didn't even tell them they had made a final decision before posting this announcement on TL :-(
Arty said to clarify that they knew of the final decision, but not that the announcement was coming at this time
If Korean think tanks have decided this is not worth the money, then so be it. Artosis/Tasteless are amazing. I hope some sort of crowd fund adventure happens and I would totally give just to say fuck you to the "businessmen" who decided this wasn't worth it.
Please, I understand I'm just an angry fan, but could you explain why? Surely the return on investment isn't being questions? This is very un cool to just suddenly pull (on some TL thread no less)
Been years since I've logged onto this but that's how strongly I feel about this move AfreecaTV. With this move you've completely lost my support, I'm not watching or supporting the ASL without an english cast. And I encourage every foreigner to do the same.
Where's the loyalty for not only the english speaking community but the casters? I've watched competitive SCBW for 20 years at this point.
On March 03 2021 12:01 Xenixx wrote: Been years since I've logged onto this but that's how strongly I feel about this move AfreecaTV. With this move you've completely lost my support, I'm not watching or supporting the ASL without an english cast. And I encourage every foreigner to do the same.
Where's the loyalty for not only the english speaking community but the casters? I've watched competitive SCBW for 20 years at this point.
On March 03 2021 12:03 FyRe_DragOn wrote: Just posting to say I always watch the english cast and this is really sad news...hope this isnt the end of tastosis
Tastosis will be fine--see their foray into Valorant. Fuck whoever is in charge of Brood War in Korea.
even with the limited amount of time i have these days i would always try my best to watch asl or speed through the vods. guess that means i won't be watching any brood war anymore.
On March 03 2021 11:23 Sasquatch wrote: Today is a sad day for Tastosis, and therefore the world :-(
i suspect Tasteless & Artosis have known this announcement was coming for some time. It also partially explains why they have been casting Valorant for AfreecaTV instead of casting BW events like ASTL 2.
Still a bit of a gut punch though.
Tosis just said on stream he asked them to let them know before they announced it and just found out they did on stream so pretty sure they kept them out of the loop either way its fucking bullshit
On March 03 2021 11:36 Sasquatch wrote: Artosis just said on stream that Afreeca didn't even tell them they had made a final decision before posting this announcement on TL :-(
Edit: Artosis clarified that it was supposed to be that they told them before they announced it, but they had been informed of the decision ahead of time.
It's a dick move on the part of the AfreecaTV management to not tell them before the announcement. Not sure what else to say really.
Aw man, this sucks. I've watch most of every ASL season, having official english streams and VODs for those events has been really amazing. I guess it's back to the good ol' days of english casters talking over the korean stream while sitting in their car in a parking lot or something.
Xenixx Profile PM Joined June 2008 United States498 Posts Last Edited: 2021-03-03 03:02:09 6 minutes ago #47 Been years since I've logged onto this but that's how strongly I feel about this move AfreecaTV. With this move you've completely lost my support, I'm not watching or supporting the ASL without an english cast. And I encourage every foreigner to do the same.
This exactly, haven't posted on TL for over 5 years, no matter what happens (and i urge afreeca to reconsider) we will support Artosis and Tasteless.
On March 03 2021 12:01 Xenixx wrote: Been years since I've logged onto this but that's how strongly I feel about this move AfreecaTV. With this move you've completely lost my support, I'm not watching or supporting the ASL without an english cast. And I encourage every foreigner to do the same.
Where's the loyalty for not only the english speaking community but the casters? I've watched competitive SCBW for 20 years at this point.
On March 03 2021 11:49 starvingbox wrote: ASL can't allow it to be streamed on Twitch, though. They are a streaming business - it just doesn't make sense.
It's unfortunate, but we need to think of a realistic solution within the bounds of reality.
Would there be any way for Twitch to grant an exemption to Twitch partners so that they can stream ASL on Afreeca?
On March 03 2021 11:55 caffeine_free wrote: Please, I understand I'm just an angry fan, but could you explain why? Surely the return on investment isn't being questions? This is very un cool to just suddenly pull (on some TL thread no less)
Has to do with cost/streamlining of activities. I'm pretty sure the foreign BW viewership has actually been growing the past 2 years but they still decided it wasn't worth the cost/effort.
How much could the stream cost? I have a hard time believing a cheap english cast (Artosis said they took a paycut last season) doesn't turn at least a small profit. I mean the broadcast is on at 3am on youtube with zero marketing and for the bigger games I've seen the live viewers hit 15-20k. Twitch would be better but there is some conflict there I know.
Maybe covid preventing crowds/ticket sales for a full year has caused this? If so maybe when things get back up and running english cast could return? Very sad the rest of the world will be cut off from pro brood war
Still, I want to thank Afreeca and Tastosis for the 10 seasons of ASL we did get...it was amazing.
Even though viewership is high i think it may have to do more with advertising? When you watch ads on the ASL stream theyre always targeted towards koreans and stuff so the foreign stream isnt getting them any money cause the ads arent for foreigners?
What a sad news to hear. Its been my honor to watch ASL with some great casters: Artosis, Tasteless etc.
Just wanna throw some thoughts on this decision.
Afreeca has been running ASL at a loss. There's a rumor in Korean BW scene the reason why Afreeca still helps BW scene is because the CEO of Afreeca is a big fan of BW, which is true. However, I believe since so many people still donate lots star balloons to the Korean streamers, Afreeca wants this scene to be alive longer. Games like LOL, PUBG have many more viewers than BW, but most BW viewers are over 20 years old, so they donate more than other games. But still, it is not as big as other games.
Most foreign streamers stream on Twitch. In order to bring foreign community over to Afreeca, AfreecaTV has been donating prizepool to NASL / Nation wars. They also opened a few LA lans. In business perspective, it is also understandable that they dont want to support anymore, since nothing comes back to them even if they do stuff at a loss.
Just my thoughts, but its very sad and disappointing to hear their decision.
On March 03 2021 12:26 Volka wrote: Terrible news. It's not going to be the same.
It won't! Every foreigner boycott the ASL starting now.
That's "cutting off your nose to spite your face" territory with that idea. Let's not go there.
Community casters are still an option. Maybe BisuDagger can start casting again with a partner? Either that or LaughNGamez starts casting ASL. That's as far as my thinking takes me.
On March 03 2021 12:25 mierin wrote: Foreign BW fans, please resist the urge to watch this once it happens. Every view on Afreeca justifies their position.
Oh come on, this is just dumb.
I remember having to use VLC to watch a laggy stream of some korean pointing a camera at his TV just to be able to watch the game live in 144p. Boycott is not the answer. Its literally the opposite, if there were 250k foreigners watching the games, they would obviously put more effort into the international broadcast. If you truly love BW you will watch the games and support whatever tournament, doesn't matter who is casting.
I've been lurking TL.net for about 10 years now. First time making an account.
I was an "SC2 only" guy before getting into Broodwar in the past year and a half. Artosis & Tasteless ASL commentary is the main reason I've grown to love Broodwar. There are lots of people that love SC2 like me that want to get into Broodwar as well and it was Tasteless & Artosis who made that possible for people outside of Korea.
This decision is extremely shortsighted and my anger has turned to sadness, hence this post. Hope we can all ban together to rectify this situation somehow.
Well, it didn't make sense for AfreecaTV to provide a product that was heavily consumed through YOUTUBE.
Though, I have to say, it sucks that they couldn't just keep on an official English stream on AfreecaTV only, even if they had to shut down the YouTube option for obvious business reasons. That seems like the obvious step to trying to get more international users to migrate to your platform, instead of just killing the official stream entirely.
Hopefully the community casts on AFTV do well enough so that they consider bringing back an official English stream, even if it's on AFTV only.
On March 03 2021 12:53 Waxangel wrote: Well, it didn't make sense for AfreecaTV to provide a product that was heavily consumed through YOUTUBE.
Though, I have to say, it sucks that they couldn't just keep on an official English stream on AfreecaTV only, even if they had to shut down the YouTube option for obvious business reasons. That seems like the obvious step to trying to get more international users to migrate to your platform, instead of just killing the official stream entirely.
Hopefully the community casts on AFTV do well enough so that they consider bringing back an official English stream, even if it's on AFTV only.
On March 03 2021 12:25 mierin wrote: Foreign BW fans, please resist the urge to watch this once it happens. Every view on Afreeca justifies their position.
Oh come on, this is just dumb.
I remember having to use VLC to watch a laggy stream of some korean pointing a camera at his TV just to be able to watch the game live in 144p. Boycott is not the answer. Its literally the opposite, if there were 250k foreigners watching the games, they would obviously put more effort into the international broadcast. If you truly love BW you will watch the games and support whatever tournament, doesn't matter who is casting.
No. Viewership has nothing to do with their business decision. If I truly love BW I will watch streamers
On March 03 2021 12:25 mierin wrote: Foreign BW fans, please resist the urge to watch this once it happens. Every view on Afreeca justifies their position.
Oh come on, this is just dumb.
I remember having to use VLC to watch a laggy stream of some korean pointing a camera at his TV just to be able to watch the game live in 144p. Boycott is not the answer. Its literally the opposite, if there were 250k foreigners watching the games, they would obviously put more effort into the international broadcast. If you truly love BW you will watch the games and support whatever tournament, doesn't matter who is casting.
No. Viewership has nothing to do with their business decision. If I truly love BW I will watch streamers
If you truly love BW, the game. You will watch the highest quality games that players have prepared for, which are tournament games. If you love a specific streamer, you will watch their stream.
On March 03 2021 12:25 mierin wrote: Foreign BW fans, please resist the urge to watch this once it happens. Every view on Afreeca justifies their position.
Oh come on, this is just dumb.
I remember having to use VLC to watch a laggy stream of some korean pointing a camera at his TV just to be able to watch the game live in 144p. Boycott is not the answer. Its literally the opposite, if there were 250k foreigners watching the games, they would obviously put more effort into the international broadcast. If you truly love BW you will watch the games and support whatever tournament, doesn't matter who is casting.
No. Viewership has nothing to do with their business decision. If I truly love BW I will watch streamers
If you truly love BW, the game. You will watch the highest quality games that players have prepared for, which are tournament games. If you love a specific streamer, you will watch their stream.
Personally I am not going to reward AfreecaTV for this decision. If you feel differently then feel free to watch their broadcasts.
My last post here is from over three years ago lol, but I just want to say that this is really sad, because Tastosis really have helped me get more interested in Brood War recently. I was really looking forward to the new season as well. Oh well.
Damn, biggest disappointment in recent memory. I looked forward every sunday of waking up early for a foriegn friendly live stream of my favorite sport. I was so amazed and impressed that Afreeca provided an English cast and wish I would have found a better way to thank them for it when I could. It will not be the same anymore, sure the play from the pros will still be excellent but not nearly as engaging or exciting. I was starting to get others involved with Brood War, family and friends, but honestly I dont expect any of them to tune into season 11 now. Hopefully this is not a permanent change in direction for Afreeca, Brood War is a game everyone should be able to enjoy!
A special thank you to Artosis and Tasteless for sacrificing so much for the community and esport, you both are so appreciated! It is so terribly sad to think that my attending the season 8 finals at Childrens Grand Park in Souel ended up being the last casting you two would do of a Brood War Starleague in front of a live audience. T-T
Sad news... was really excited for s11 too. I hope they reconsider for s12, but I'll still be watching the korean cast I guess (not that I can understand it at all...)
Many thanks to Tastosis for heavy lifting the english casts all these years. I certainly won't enjoy the casts as much as I did with their commentary.
On March 03 2021 12:36 cRoSsy wrote: What a sad news to hear. Its been my honor to watch ASL with some great casters: Artosis, Tasteless etc.
Just wanna throw some thoughts on this decision.
Afreeca has been running ASL at a loss. There's a rumor in Korean BW scene the reason why Afreeca still helps BW scene is because the CEO of Afreeca is a big fan of BW, which is true. However, I believe since so many people still donate lots star balloons to the Korean streamers, Afreeca wants this scene to be alive longer. Games like LOL, PUBG have many more viewers than BW, but most BW viewers are over 20 years old, so they donate more than other games. But still, it is not as big as other games.
Most foreign streamers stream on Twitch. In order to bring foreign community over to Afreeca, AfreecaTV has been donating prizepool to NASL / Nation wars. They also opened a few LA lans. In business perspective, it is also understandable that they dont want to support anymore, since nothing comes back to them even if they do stuff at a loss.
Just my thoughts, but its very sad and disappointing to hear their decision.
From what I know BW is constantly top 5 in afreeca viewership and sometimes 2nd, losing only to LoL. It's not as big as LoL but it's still one of the most popular games in Korea.
On March 03 2021 12:53 Waxangel wrote: Well, it didn't make sense for AfreecaTV to provide a product that was heavily consumed through YOUTUBE.
Though, I have to say, it sucks that they couldn't just keep on an official English stream on AfreecaTV only, even if they had to shut down the YouTube option for obvious business reasons. That seems like the obvious step to trying to get more international users to migrate to your platform, instead of just killing the official stream entirely.
Hopefully the community casts on AFTV do well enough so that they consider bringing back an official English stream, even if it's on AFTV only.
Interesting thought, did they actually shut down the YouTube option? They will still be posting the VODs to YouTube afterwards right?
Also if Afreeca could bother to update their pile of crap foreign website maybe more people will watch on Afreeca instead of YouTube.
This is extremely disappointing. I strongly recommend Afreeca reconsider this decision, as there is a significant contingent of non-Korean BroodWar fans.
It's possible that current methods to monetize this group (e.g. activities directly on afreecatv.com, which is incomprehensible to non-Koreans) are insufficient. However, I'm certain there's large enough demand to justify English casting given some creativity around monetization. After all, you're getting hundreds of thousands of views on Youtube for English ASL.
Damn it, this isn't what I wanted to hear. Going from ASL11 announcement to this is terrible. I really hope we can continue on some how, either afreeca can be made to reconsider or we can 3rd party it somehow.
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Dear Fans,
It’s unfortunate for us today to announce that the ASL will no longer be supported in English.
It has been the most exciting adventure for us to share the ASL with fans all over the world. We thank you for all of your love and support over the years.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
Thank you, AfreecaTV
Hello, after Coronavirus ends, bring back ASL English Cast OK?
Starcraft was made in America. The game would simply not exist without its English creation first. This is SC's history in raw form.
AfreecaTV is a multi million dollar streaming platform.
People who are throwing out " It's just business Hurrrrr" don't get that they could if they wanted too. They simply don't. And that is a slap into the face of the legacy of this game. It doesn't matter if they took this game and made it their own with a culture that supported young kids no lifing the game for most of their lives, do you know what my parents would have done on my farm growing up if I told them i wanted to "main" a computer game? I cant even.
NOT TO MENTION people like Artosis/Tastless who took extreme risk moving to Korea and dedicating their professional lives basically to the E-sports of a computer game. I wonder if Artosis would have had four kids if he knew a few years after all these companies he dedicated his life too and worked his ass off for would shaft him for a pittance of their bottom line. NOT TO MENTION Tasteless, who doesn't get the same viewership on twitch etc who will be hurting EVEN MORE. I'm actually infuriated for them.
you do you AfreecaTV, but don't act like money was the supreme bottom line. Protoss mains the whole lot of you, I sense no honor.
On March 03 2021 13:12 Plume wrote: Sad news... was really excited for s11 too. I hope they reconsider for s12, but I'll still be watching the korean cast I guess (not that I can understand it at all...)
I was mentally preparing for this, watching ASTL isn't half bad if you've watched all 10 ASL seasons (and the Dabang Team Battle), you can even cast it for yourself when you start seeing what's going on etc. If you're good at casting you might realize that zerglings and mutalisks will be built in ZvZ for example.
I am not a camera person, a feature of phones I wish at times like these I wish I used more and had more experience with. I am so upset with myself for not taking better or more pictures.
I have been looking forward to seeing Artosis and Tasteless casting in Afreeca's new building, guess I never will. Tearing up thinking I saw their last live audience cast of greatest game ever made.
This is truly heart-breaking news, I understand that they might want to cut costs during the pandemic but as a fan of both StarCraft games I would be okay with them downsizing the English cast to just 1 commentator while still covering both tournaments. That way we still get coverage and the casters can alternate.
I came back to StarCraft after my friend PrimaOne persuaded me to watch ASL Season 9 last year. Watching Artosis and Tasteless cast ASL got me into the game again. Before I knew it, I was logging online to play, reactivating my friendly clan, creating a discord server, starting a fun showmatch series and trying to contribute to the wonderful foreign Brood War community. That's the effect Arty and Nick had on me and most likely many others.
ASL you have been very good to the foreign community. But you have also been very fortunate to have such a dedicated and talented English casting duo, not to mention a faithful fan base outside of Korea. I do sincerely hope a solution can be found to correct this disappointing situation for both communities.
On March 03 2021 12:26 Volka wrote: Terrible news. It's not going to be the same.
It won't! Every foreigner boycott the ASL starting now.
Boycotting ASL is exactly counterproductive in this case. Let's take a step back and withdraw emotion from this situation and analyze this. If anything, AfreecaTV has been going out of their way to bless us with english coverage for 10 seasons.
Afreeca is a streaming company and at the end of the day their goal is to drive more viewers to their platform. From what I see, most foreign viewers watch the livestream and VODs on Youtube and hardly anyone uses Afreeca (iirc the usual viewer counter for Afreeca ENG is a few hundred whereas the YouTube livestream can reach 4-5k average). This results in them getting almost no revenue which they might be able to live with if it drives more people to use AfreecaTV, but that doesn't happen as well.
A good reason for foreign viewers watching on YouTube is basically down to it's ease of use and familiarity, something which the foreign AfreecaTV website/app does not offer (seriously the foreign AfreecaTV website/app is absolutely terrible and unintuitive). The unfortunate thing is because the domestic market in Korea is so successful, it gives them very little incentive to devote money and resources to invest into building their foreign website/app, not to mention Twitch dwarfs them in the foreign market. If only they could spend a little bit more time and money on their foreign website/app, it would improve things significantly.
So at the end of the day, having a paid for english cast just doesn't make much sense from their point of view even if the Youtube channel is doing well.
Maybe we can think of another solution to this but boycotting ASL due to this decision is not the right move.
The last thread of my childhood has been snipped off, and the final strand is slowly falling and flailing toward a brutally burning flame. What do adults watch these days for professional pvp action, real housewives? Help
While this is certainly sad, people here arguing that it's stupid need to calm down and look at it from Afreeca's business perspective.
Afreeca is a KOREAN based platform. It hosts a KOREAN tournament during KOREAN hours. Hardly any English speakers are watching during those hours anyways. A business will generally only pay if they will get financial gains back from an investment. Afreeca invests in casters to promote their games, get additional sponsorship and ad revenue, and attract viewers to watch. Why have commentators in the first place? To make the product more enjoyable and watchable.
Tastosis, unfortunately, are not worth the investment. While they certainly make the product much more enjoyable from an English viewer perspective, not enough viewers tune in to watch. Even fewer are ever buying any products shown via the advertisements (the products are Korean), and only a tiny fraction of the viewers will ever spend money on Afreeca perks or donations. The English fans who watch aren't watching Afreeca so much as they are watching Tastosis, then jump ship immediately. You aren't staying on the website, you aren't buying any of the ad products, so what's the purpose of paying Tastosis money on something that yields almost ZERO returns?
At the end of the day, it is a Korean company sponsoring a game that, while has seen tremendous growth in the foreign audiences, has not seen the growth translate to viewer counts and increased revenue.
However, I would urge Afreeca to allow people to use and upload their own English casts, not just on AfreecaTV, but also Twitch or Youtube. While it is understandable that Afreeca wants all the viewership traffic to their website, there are so many people that just wait for the Youtube video anyways and don't go to Afreeca.tv ever. To me, they lose hardly anything by allowing foreign communities to enjoy the casting in their own languages.
Why would i watch ASL without tastosis? They are just as professional and as entertaining as the professionals playing the game. Not trying to degrade the skills of the athletes here, its just a reality for our demographic. If they have to make the choice as a business that's fine, but you definitely have to expect this response, and you definitely have to understand it.
On March 03 2021 14:16 themusic246 wrote: Why would i watch ASL without tastosis? They are just as professional and as entertaining and the professionals playing the game. Not trying to degrade the skills of the athletes here, its just a reality for our demographic. If they have to make the choice as a business that's fine, but you definitely have to expect this response, and you definitely have to understand it.
Because you want to see the highest level brood war competition of 2021?
On March 03 2021 14:09 FlaShFTW wrote: While this is certainly sad, people here arguing that it's stupid need to calm down and look at it from Afreeca's business perspective.
Afreeca is a KOREAN based platform. It hosts a KOREAN tournament during KOREAN hours. Hardly any English speakers are watching during those hours anyways. A business will generally only pay if they will get financial gains back from an investment. Afreeca invests in casters to promote their games, get additional sponsorship and ad revenue, and attract viewers to watch. Why have commentators in the first place? To make the product more enjoyable and watchable.
Tastosis, unfortunately, are not worth the investment. While they certainly make the product much more enjoyable from an English viewer perspective, not enough viewers tune in to watch. Even fewer are ever buying any products shown via the advertisements (the products are Korean), and only a tiny fraction of the viewers will ever spend money on Afreeca perks or donations. The English fans who watch aren't watching Afreeca so much as they are watching Tastosis, then jump ship immediately. You aren't staying on the website, you aren't buying any of the ad products, so what's the purpose of paying Tastosis money on something that yields almost ZERO returns?
At the end of the day, it is a Korean company sponsoring a game that, while has seen tremendous growth in the foreign audiences, has not seen the growth translate to viewer counts and increased revenue.
However, I would urge Afreeca to allow people to use and upload their own English casts, not just on AfreecaTV, but also Twitch or Youtube. While it is understandable that Afreeca wants all the viewership traffic to their website, there are so many people that just wait for the Youtube video anyways and don't go to Afreeca.tv ever. To me, they lose hardly anything by allowing foreign communities to enjoy the casting in their own languages.
This is not entirely true, Tasteless tweeted it was not due to the casters' pay (twitter.com)
The ultimate problem is foreign viewers are not watching on AfreecaTV itself, which Afreeca can easily justify if the number of viewers switch to Afreeca instead of Youtube. The viewer numbers are doing well actually, the english stream got 4-5k average last season which is great for almost no marketing and during a terrible timezone for NA. The YouTube VODs also get 50-100k viewers so it's not a viewer issue but a platform issue.
On March 03 2021 14:16 themusic246 wrote: Why would i watch ASL without tastosis? They are just as professional and as entertaining and the professionals playing the game. Not trying to degrade the skills of the athletes here, its just a reality for our demographic. If they have to make the choice as a business that's fine, but you definitely have to expect this response, and you definitely have to understand it.
Because you want to see the highest level brood war competition of 2021?
I still watch(ed) it, yes. On youtube. Not sure what response you're fishing for here.
On March 03 2021 14:09 FlaShFTW wrote: While this is certainly sad, people here arguing that it's stupid need to calm down and look at it from Afreeca's business perspective.
Afreeca is a KOREAN based platform. It hosts a KOREAN tournament during KOREAN hours. Hardly any English speakers are watching during those hours anyways. A business will generally only pay if they will get financial gains back from an investment. Afreeca invests in casters to promote their games, get additional sponsorship and ad revenue, and attract viewers to watch. Why have commentators in the first place? To make the product more enjoyable and watchable.
Tastosis, unfortunately, are not worth the investment. While they certainly make the product much more enjoyable from an English viewer perspective, not enough viewers tune in to watch. Even fewer are ever buying any products shown via the advertisements (the products are Korean), and only a tiny fraction of the viewers will ever spend money on Afreeca perks or donations. The English fans who watch aren't watching Afreeca so much as they are watching Tastosis, then jump ship immediately. You aren't staying on the website, you aren't buying any of the ad products, so what's the purpose of paying Tastosis money on something that yields almost ZERO returns?
At the end of the day, it is a Korean company sponsoring a game that, while has seen tremendous growth in the foreign audiences, has not seen the growth translate to viewer counts and increased revenue.
However, I would urge Afreeca to allow people to use and upload their own English casts, not just on AfreecaTV, but also Twitch or Youtube. While it is understandable that Afreeca wants all the viewership traffic to their website, there are so many people that just wait for the Youtube video anyways and don't go to Afreeca.tv ever. To me, they lose hardly anything by allowing foreign communities to enjoy the casting in their own languages.
This is not entirely true, Tasteless tweeted it was not due to the casters' pay (twitter.com)
The ultimate problem is foreign viewers are not watching on AfreecaTV itself, which Afreeca can easily justify if the number of viewers switch to Afreeca instead of Youtube. The viewer numbers are doing well actually, the english stream got 4-5k average last season which is great for almost no marketing and during a terrible timezone for NA. The YouTube VODs also get 50-100k viewers so it's not a viewer issue but a platform issue.
Payment issue does not mean necessarily that Afreeca isn't still running at a loss on their investment. Just because Tastosis might say, yeah pay us whatever, if Afreeca runs at a loss, the only other alternative would be to pay them 0.
Afreeca also doesn't want to move to another platform, and why would they? They have their own platform that they want to grow and continue to make bigger. Why would they choose to split the audience between the two? They want to corner the market for Korean streamers, not let their investments start going to Youtube. They would rather lose out on X viewers than go to Youtube and have X viewers that would watch on Afreeca migrate to Youtube.
On March 03 2021 14:16 themusic246 wrote: Why would i watch ASL without tastosis? They are just as professional and as entertaining as the professionals playing the game. Not trying to degrade the skills of the athletes here, its just a reality for our demographic. If they have to make the choice as a business that's fine, but you definitely have to expect this response, and you definitely have to understand it.
Korean casting isn't even bad for an english viewer, and you watch for the enjoyment that is the highest level of Brood War. Most people here will still be watching the ASL, they'll just have to wait for the Youtube VODs to come out because they won't watch on Afreeca. Are you watching for Tastosis, or are you watching for the Brood War is the real question you have to ask yourself.
On March 03 2021 14:09 FlaShFTW wrote: While this is certainly sad, people here arguing that it's stupid need to calm down and look at it from Afreeca's business perspective.
Afreeca is a KOREAN based platform. It hosts a KOREAN tournament during KOREAN hours. Hardly any English speakers are watching during those hours anyways. A business will generally only pay if they will get financial gains back from an investment. Afreeca invests in casters to promote their games, get additional sponsorship and ad revenue, and attract viewers to watch. Why have commentators in the first place? To make the product more enjoyable and watchable.
Tastosis, unfortunately, are not worth the investment. While they certainly make the product much more enjoyable from an English viewer perspective, not enough viewers tune in to watch. Even fewer are ever buying any products shown via the advertisements (the products are Korean), and only a tiny fraction of the viewers will ever spend money on Afreeca perks or donations. The English fans who watch aren't watching Afreeca so much as they are watching Tastosis, then jump ship immediately. You aren't staying on the website, you aren't buying any of the ad products, so what's the purpose of paying Tastosis money on something that yields almost ZERO returns?
At the end of the day, it is a Korean company sponsoring a game that, while has seen tremendous growth in the foreign audiences, has not seen the growth translate to viewer counts and increased revenue.
However, I would urge Afreeca to allow people to use and upload their own English casts, not just on AfreecaTV, but also Twitch or Youtube. While it is understandable that Afreeca wants all the viewership traffic to their website, there are so many people that just wait for the Youtube video anyways and don't go to Afreeca.tv ever. To me, they lose hardly anything by allowing foreign communities to enjoy the casting in their own languages.
This is not entirely true, Tasteless tweeted it was not due to the casters' pay (twitter.com)
The ultimate problem is foreign viewers are not watching on AfreecaTV itself, which Afreeca can easily justify if the number of viewers switch to Afreeca instead of Youtube. The viewer numbers are doing well actually, the english stream got 4-5k average last season which is great for almost no marketing and during a terrible timezone for NA. The YouTube VODs also get 50-100k viewers so it's not a viewer issue but a platform issue.
Payment issue does not mean necessarily that Afreeca isn't still running at a loss on their investment. Just because Tastosis might say, yeah pay us whatever, if Afreeca runs at a loss, the only other alternative would be to pay them 0.
Afreeca also doesn't want to move to another platform, and why would they? They have their own platform that they want to grow and continue to make bigger. Why would they choose to split the audience between the two? They want to corner the market for Korean streamers, not let their investments start going to Youtube. They would rather lose out on X viewers than go to Youtube and have X viewers that would watch on Afreeca migrate to Youtube.
On March 03 2021 14:16 themusic246 wrote: Why would i watch ASL without tastosis? They are just as professional and as entertaining as the professionals playing the game. Not trying to degrade the skills of the athletes here, its just a reality for our demographic. If they have to make the choice as a business that's fine, but you definitely have to expect this response, and you definitely have to understand it.
Korean casting isn't even bad for an english viewer, and you watch for the enjoyment that is the highest level of Brood War. Most people here will still be watching the ASL, they'll just have to wait for the Youtube VODs to come out because they won't watch on Afreeca. Are you watching for Tastosis, or are you watching for the Brood War is the real question you have to ask yourself.
There's no real way to measure the exact return on investment in this case, but Afreeca can easily justify the investment or loss if the viewer and VOD count of the Youtube English stream was switched over to Afreeca for example. This would mean that their foreign viewers are using Afreeca which would further incentivize invest in an English cast. Which is exactly what happened in this case if you read in-between Tasteless's tweet.
I'm pretty sure Afreeca doesn't make much money or might even run ASL at a loss due to licensing fees to Blizzard and what not, but they continue to run it because it gives them good publicity and indirectly increase their viewership on the platform. So at the end of day they are happy with making a loss if it indirectly increases their viewership in the long run.
Agreed on your point that they would rather lose out X amount of viewers to Youtube than spilt the audience.
On March 03 2021 14:16 themusic246 wrote: Why would i watch ASL without tastosis? They are just as professional and as entertaining and the professionals playing the game. Not trying to degrade the skills of the athletes here, its just a reality for our demographic. If they have to make the choice as a business that's fine, but you definitely have to expect this response, and you definitely have to understand it.
Because you want to see the highest level brood war competition of 2021?
I still watch(ed) it, yes. On youtube. Not sure what response you're fishing for here.
Because you asked "Why would i watch ASL without tastosis?"
Theres your answer. If love the game, you watch it regardless of casters. Also most foreigners watching on youtube instead of afrreeca probably had something to do with this. Afreeca is trying to promote their streaming service via this starcraft league, its nothing but an expense to them, and the afreeca foreign stream gets 100ish viewers while the youtube stream gets multiple thousand. This kept going on for multiple seasons and now people are mad because they are shutting it down.
If you want to watch the highest level of starcraft competition you will watch the korean stream, but if you are interested in the casters and their personality just watch their streams instead.
I've watched nearly 20 years of professional Brood War, most of it in Korean, and Tastosis was the first casting team to make me always want to watch BW in English. Watching ASL was a genuine delight for me primarily due to Tastosis, it won't be the same without them and I highly doubt I'll be motivated enough to watch the Korean casts, honestly.
Afreeca creates a great product and I hope they keep succeeding in the future, especially in Korea, but the english cast was a big reason why I tuned in for every match.
If there is a grassroots effort being set up, please count me in for a monthly subscription if we can somehow get Tastosis to cast ASL on a separate distribution channel.
On March 03 2021 11:32 Chris_Havoc wrote: It also partially explains why they have been casting Valorant for AfreecaTV instead of casting BW events like ASTL 2.
As I understand it, as with ASTL1 they didn't cast it because they didn't get paid to do it. If they get paid to cast ASL why would they cast ASTL for free?
I hope they can band together and do a patreon or something to get paid to cast it in the future, but it just isn't the same when they aren't in the studio and the afreeca site and app if truly awful and practically unusable for me.
A sad day for foreign Starcraft 1 fans. Whilst current ASL viewership numbers were unlikely to reach those of Starcraft 1's prime, Tastosis' casting definitely contributed to attracting and re-vitalizing interest in the Starcraft 1 scene within the foreign community. Really hope that Afreeca would reconsider this decision and contemplate reversing it in the near future.
Meanwhile, we can all still support Tastosis through their Twitch streams and watching their casts of other games.
Really sad. While I understand (on a very superficial level) the business rationale behind that decision, it doesn't make me feel any better. I hope some of the great casters in the community have the time and energy to provide us with community english casts. Tastosis had a unique dynamic as a duo and it will be sorely missed if they choose to stop casting BW together, but hey, don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened. Cheers to those wonderful years, thanks for all the fish!
This sucks, since I've understood BW is still doing really well in terms of viewership on Afreeca. Maybe we will come to remember these 10 seasons as the "good times" when we had an official English cast for ASL. Really sad to see it go.
Sad news! In last few years i only watch BW,its hundred times better then any new movies and shows! Since the last ASTL we got esport as a team sponsor is there any chance they can contact Afreeca and see is there any chance we can all donate and pay for Tastosis to cast?? I mean is anyone know roughly how many money Arty and Tasteless earn per season?
I really hope this can change and its not final decision...
AfreecaTV should think about selling the ASL English broadcast rights. I would think there are enough viewers and a market. If it's true the issue is that foreign ASL viewers aren't generating enough revenue since very few of us use AfreecaTV and all the ads are for the Korean market, sell the rights to some other company that can run more relevant ads for a foreign audience.
This sucks, especially since the starcraft scene outside of Korea seemed to be doing pretty well in terms of viewership and BW player numbers.
I do like the idea of crowdfunding Tastosis casts though, if they are up for it. I'm usually kind of cheap but BW is important enough to me that I wouldn't mind pitching in.
This is so sad I feel like this is another nail into foreigner scene's coffin. I wish Tastosis all the best and hope they will keep doing fine. I am also willing to support them financially.
What a tragedy for the whole foreign BW scene. I wish AfreecaTV would reconsider, Tastosis have been keeping BW alive, and with this announcement, part of it has died.
Sad, but expected. Still gonna watch ASL since it's the Most competive league and I'm used to hearing korean comments. I can't really agree on the boycott some people want.
You can say that it makes sense from a business perspective but i’d argue that that’s short sighted logic. To use a business analogy, does it make sense for Google, which owns the Android OS, to release their apps like Gmail and Chrome on iPhones? Same arguments apply here - on the surface the answer is no because why would they encourage competing platforms? But the reality is simple - there is a huge number of iPhone users and nothing Google does with Android will change that, so they have to embrace that reality.
AfreecaTV will not beat Twitch in the non-korean market. Period. Even if their product miraculously became on par with twitch, the first mover advantage is way too big. Not to mention they are competing with one of the biggest companies in the world that owns a mind blowing amount of the internet’s infrastructure. So why not embrace that? What’s the harm in even trying? They had 10 seasons to try and monetize and grow their foreign audience but they did absolutely nothing.
And where is blizzard in all of this? Last I heard they were supporting ASL monetarily, they even supported the foreign BSL tournament. If I’m wrong and they are still charging money for licensing a starcraft 1 tournament that’s the biggest joke I’ve heard all year.
This is basically gonna kill foreign interest in korean brood war. I’ve watched nearly every ASL game, and almost no ASTL games because of the lack of english casts. I’m sure there are many like me.
Would be amazing to understand a wider context behind that decision, e.g is it just the cost of hiring them, or no revenue from ads running on foreign stream, or...? AfreecaTV, please give us some insights, I am sure that foreigners scene can fix that easily.
Honestly guys? I first heard about something happening with ASL through reading Ret's tweet, and like a lot of you, he was acting like the tournament was cancelled, come on now
On March 03 2021 12:25 mierin wrote: Foreign BW fans, please resist the urge to watch this once it happens. Every view on Afreeca justifies their position.
Oh come on, this is just dumb.
I remember having to use VLC to watch a laggy stream of some korean pointing a camera at his TV just to be able to watch the game live in 144p. Boycott is not the answer. Its literally the opposite, if there were 250k foreigners watching the games, they would obviously put more effort into the international broadcast. If you truly love BW you will watch the games and support whatever tournament, doesn't matter who is casting.
It's this. It sucks for Artosis and Tasteless on a personal level, but:
a) the way to show to Afreeca that there is foreign interest is not to reduce foreign viewership b) without Afreeca there wouldn't be an ASL in the first place, and it's pretty doubtful that we have a Korean BW scene to the extent we have right now c) this is not the end of the world, if you're interested in BW you'll either watch in Korean, or through someone else restreaming in English. This is still way, way better from the Justin.tv days or earlier like the guy in the quote mentions, where if you got a stream at all, it was Korean, and if you wanted English you waited for Moletrap or someone to dub it afterwards.
Guess this means I'll go back to not watching any brood war. Too bad because I really loved watching the ASL (my favourite tournament stream) and were looking forward to the next season. No interest of watching when I can't understand the commentary, on a laggy platform.
Honestly guys? I first heard about something happening with ASL through reading Ret's tweet, and like a lot of you, he was acting like the tournament was cancelled, come on now
Technically for me as a viewer, it is basically cancelled. It's not strange why people in my situation are upset.
This is so so sad. I've been waiting for the next season with english cast so much! ASL has been the best thing. I'd be willing to pay to watch the cast and I think many others. I wonder if there is any chance that if community collects money we could change afreeca's mind.
I'll still be watching ASL becuase I watch it for the games, but it is really sad. Afreeca are not big enough that they can afford to spam servers everywhere like Twitch can which means there'll always be lag problems for a lot of people outside of Korea, but they're still supporting the game I love and yes it's sad there'll be no English cast, I watched Broodwar for years in 240p without English casting and it never bothered me before.
There's no revenue for them to be gained by spending money for foreign casters. I'm sure there's plenty of people who would like to cast, you just need to cast on Afreeca. Heck, I'm not a twitch partner and I'd probably cast if I wasn't working.
Wow this is bad. Afreeca have made this really difficult now with a poor English website and less inclusive by dropping Tastosis. Like others, would be good to know the rationale behind the decision as the community is willing to help, we just need to know the problem :/
The alternative imo is to create such a massive bottleneck during their live cast that it crashes the stream and they have no choice but to improve infrastructure to foreign community!
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Dear Fans,
It’s unfortunate for us today to announce that the ASL will no longer be supported in English.
It has been the most exciting adventure for us to share the ASL with fans all over the world. We thank you for all of your love and support over the years.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
Thank you, AfreecaTV
I have a request, is it possible to please make a ASL stream with no commentary just game sound, thanks.
On March 03 2021 17:53 kogeT wrote: Would be amazing to understand a wider context behind that decision, e.g is it just the cost of hiring them, or no revenue from ads running on foreign stream, or...? AfreecaTV, please give us some insights, I am sure that foreigners scene can fix that easily.
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Dear Fans,
It’s unfortunate for us today to announce that the ASL will no longer be supported in English.
It has been the most exciting adventure for us to share the ASL with fans all over the world. We thank you for all of your love and support over the years.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
On March 03 2021 11:47 ZAWGURN wrote: We need to come together as a community and petition Afreeca to bring it back. if we can get the whole weight of our community behind us im sure we can make change happen.
If not, let's hope that there will be an english cast on AfreecaTV.
On March 03 2021 17:53 kogeT wrote: Would be amazing to understand a wider context behind that decision, e.g is it just the cost of hiring them, or no revenue from ads running on foreign stream, or...? AfreecaTV, please give us some insights, I am sure that foreigners scene can fix that easily.
My understanding is that Afreeca is not willing or able to invest any money into tastosis salary at this point. They explicitly offered the clean feed stream for community casts, but as pointed out the youtube stream provides them no marketing bonus for Afreeca.tv whatsoever and likely close to 0 income from merch.
If Tastosis salary expectations were just to high from afreecas pov, they would have hired somebody different, which they didnt. Tastosis make a living from casting, so obviously its nit an option for them to do it 4 free. Thats my take.
Well broodwar is for the most part a korean thing, nobody play the game outside of korea and nobody will, the foreign viewers are a very tiny part of the audience and it will continue to shrink that's normal, that's life it was a very good journey, thanks to artosis and tasteless and everyone for the amount of work and passion.
As a spectator, I understand this decision. I'm no genius, but isn't the goal to run a profitable business? 18 matchdays * Attendance * Admission Price. Obviously, there will be fluctuating demand depending on who is playing, so we can assume they wouldn't be selling out, even without the current situation. With AfreecaTV as the title sponsor, there also appears to be little demand for that, and I'm unaware in what other ways AfreecaTV monetizes their broadcast.
From the community side, I think this will actually work out wonderfully. Obviously, Tastosis are blessed to have the freedom to be themselves on broadcast, and from what they've made public, are mostly left to themselves. There will still be demand for these games to be brought to a western audience, and that need will be served, most likely by Tastosis themselves(but maybe not live due to broadcasting rights), if not by our other excellent voices.
I think GSL for SC2 is going to be done just after the esl contract (end of 2022 I think ?) for the exact opposite reason : nobody in korea care about sc2, nobody is playing it, the viewship is mostly from outside of Korea. if SC2 lives it will be without a korean scene, there will still be the old gard of players who are slowy going away (innovation, maru etc)
I got into ASL because of Tosis and Tasteless, English casters were a must. Big Mistake. How could this possibly be the more profitable option for your company @Afreeca?
Sad news, Tastosis casts were great! Anyway, I will not stop watching BW, cause I love it! Hope we can make some sort of crowdfunding for Tastosis in order to let them stream anyway, I would be glad to support it!
Feel sorry for Artosis and Tasteless, but this is a good time to start ther own casting business with unofficial casts of bw events and earn salary from donations.
Is there any chance they can create BW league with korean pros and stream on youtube since Artosis and Tasteless live in Korea? I suppose they only need money for prize pool and some sponsors.
On March 03 2021 14:09 FlaShFTW wrote: While this is certainly sad, people here arguing that it's stupid need to calm down and look at it from Afreeca's business perspective.
Afreeca is a KOREAN based platform. It hosts a KOREAN tournament during KOREAN hours. Hardly any English speakers are watching during those hours anyways. A business will generally only pay if they will get financial gains back from an investment. Afreeca invests in casters to promote their games, get additional sponsorship and ad revenue, and attract viewers to watch. Why have commentators in the first place? To make the product more enjoyable and watchable.
Tastosis, unfortunately, are not worth the investment. While they certainly make the product much more enjoyable from an English viewer perspective, not enough viewers tune in to watch. Even fewer are ever buying any products shown via the advertisements (the products are Korean), and only a tiny fraction of the viewers will ever spend money on Afreeca perks or donations. The English fans who watch aren't watching Afreeca so much as they are watching Tastosis, then jump ship immediately. You aren't staying on the website, you aren't buying any of the ad products, so what's the purpose of paying Tastosis money on something that yields almost ZERO returns?
At the end of the day, it is a Korean company sponsoring a game that, while has seen tremendous growth in the foreign audiences, has not seen the growth translate to viewer counts and increased revenue.
However, I would urge Afreeca to allow people to use and upload their own English casts, not just on AfreecaTV, but also Twitch or Youtube. While it is understandable that Afreeca wants all the viewership traffic to their website, there are so many people that just wait for the Youtube video anyways and don't go to Afreeca.tv ever. To me, they lose hardly anything by allowing foreign communities to enjoy the casting in their own languages.
they already dont allow korean starcraft progamer youtubes to upload their own full games, but just limit it to 7 min highlight at most. The whole streaming platform between youtube and afreeca is tilting too, so do expect more changes going forward.
On March 03 2021 20:13 iFU.spx wrote: Fell sorry for Artosis and Tasteless, but this is a good time to start ther own casting business with unofficial casts of bw events and earn salary from donations.
Sad, but not particularly surprising. The past year(s) has seen less and less Korean BW events with official English casts. It was only a matter of time before ASL followed suit.
It was fun while it lasted though! Personally I don't mind Korean casters even if I don't understand the language. BW is still BW, and I'll be sure to follow ASL regardless.
As upsetting as this is, I am still grateful for Afreeca and their support of the BW scene. They've done more than we ever could carrying BW thus far. This is inclusive of the management team, players, map makers, observers and sponsors.
Arty and Tasteless will continue to do well regardless as their casting skills are out of this world. Will whole-heartedly support them in their youtube casts/live streams.
From a business perspective this does make sense. However I would add that Afreeca has done a poor job at managing their Starcraft content in the last 5 years.
Paying Tasteless and Artosis for 10 seasons is all fine and dandy but their whole approach to insulate themselves from other streaming platforms and basically confine the professional Starcraft scene to a website that is hardly accessibly and/or user-friendly for Western audiences is actually their biggest downfall.
At this point it's pretty clear that if Broodwar has a scene, it's not large enough to survive unless it's available to a global audience. The Korean viewership seems to be down-trending.
This game seems to be bastardized by everyone to be honest: Blizzard taxes everyone that wants to put out an official tournament (probably the reason KSL died) whilst the same company PAYS Afreeca to host SCII tournaments at (probably) a record loss. All this while the game hasn't had proper support and bug-fixing ever since Remastered was launched.
On top of that, the best players are restricted (not officially, but they're adults that prioritize steady income over anything else of course) to a platform that has a self-destructive business model that somehow tries to compete with global streaming business like twitch.
Cursed all around.
On the other hand, think of a featured stream on twitch with Artosis and Tasteless casting where you can watch the best Broodwar tournament in the world with a semi-decent production that would probably cost peanuts in a COVID world.
The crappy part is that you can only restream on Afreeca.. so basicially they say: "we love english streams, but we will not pay a penny for them, but you are welcome to bring us more viewers". I would cast ASL if I could do that on my twitch channel. ;-)
What a shame, though big thanks to Afreeca for keeping this going for so long.
I know its not realistic but I'd be happy with it if Afreeca kind of turned a blind eye towards english YT-vods of tournaments. As it is now we actually have a lot of BW content, I can't even watch everything I want (BSL, ASL, ASTL, Best of the Best, Shinhan, Ultimate Battle, Race Wars and more). We have, even without Artosis, maybe the highest concentration of good and knowledgable BW-casters since they days of old before the SC2 switch.
Its just that the coverage of the content from Korea is constantly on the edge of being shut down. Saiyan does a great job covering lots of korean stuff, but one sweep from Afreeca and he'd be gone.
Well either way, BW keeps going and to a big part due to Afreeca, so thanks again, even though I don't like this decision.
AfreecaTV should think about selling the ASL English broadcast rights. I would think there are enough viewers and a market.
I imagine this is the way to go. The question is if anyone in BW scene actually has the time/connections/funds to organize such thing, because it doesnt look simple at all. You'd need to negotiate broadcasting terms with Afreeca, organize crowdfunding, probably find and negotiate with sponsors, thats a lot of fucking work with barely any chance of compensation.
Honestly, what a loss. This is really sad. While I only saw the 10th ASL live it really gave a lasting memory. Now as I go back and watch all the others it makes me sad to think that Artosis and Tasteless won't be casting again. I understand that the English cast was not profitable for Afreeca but it hurts nonetheless. I am really heartbroken right now but I hope sometime in the near future the top pros will be covered in English by Tastosis again.
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
is the only way to get the clean feed to contact them through that form or is it somewhere streamed on their site
If i understand correctly for example Tastosis still can cast ASL but not LIVE and they can cast VODs only on AfreecaTV? That should not be a problem,they can watch and cast games just after live is finish. If thats possible they can open channel for donation and set whats the minimum amount of money to do that. Im sure we can earn more money then they would ask for that!
Nooooooooooooooooo I absolutely love Tastosis! They manage to make SC something that I can laugh while watching
On March 03 2021 22:49 bracala wrote: If i understand correctly for example Tastosis still can cast ASL but not LIVE and they can cast VODs only on AfreecaTV? That should not be a problem,they can watch and cast games just after live is finish. If thats possible they can open channel for donation and set whats the minimum amount of money to do that. Im sure we can earn more money then they would ask for that!
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Dear Fans,
It’s unfortunate for us today to announce that the ASL will no longer be supported in English.
It has been the most exciting adventure for us to share the ASL with fans all over the world. We thank you for all of your love and support over the years.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
This is so sad, I thought their viewership (at least in terms of youtube numbers) were pretty good, every vod is over 100k views and the last season was their best. Tastosis is such a gigantic part of introducing this beautiful game to new players and keeping veterans entertained with high level commentary alike.
This is a very sad day, I've been watching Tasteless cast since 2006 and to be fair while I did prefer Korean commentators over English ones back in the day, Tastosis are on another level and it has been so much fun watching them cast the ASL.
I'm still grateful for AfreecaTV running the ASL despite it probably isn't that profitable and for even allowing English casts for 10 seasons, I will continue to watch ASL until its end (which might not be far away). I guess now would be a perfect time for SC3.
On March 03 2021 17:53 kogeT wrote: Would be amazing to understand a wider context behind that decision, e.g is it just the cost of hiring them, or no revenue from ads running on foreign stream, or...? AfreecaTV, please give us some insights, I am sure that foreigners scene can fix that easily.
If Tastosis salary expectations were just to high from afreecas pov, they would have hired somebody different, which they didnt.
This doesn't have to be true, it does cost quite a bit to hire new people so it's not like it can't be just a financial decision.
On March 03 2021 22:49 bracala wrote: If i understand correctly for example Tastosis still can cast ASL but not LIVE and they can cast VODs only on AfreecaTV? That should not be a problem,they can watch and cast games just after live is finish. If thats possible they can open channel for donation and set whats the minimum amount of money to do that. Im sure we can earn more money then they would ask for that!
They can't cast on Afreeca because they're twitch partners. Same reason Afreeca big streamers can't stream on Twitch.
The streaming industry is really shitty like that.
On March 03 2021 22:49 bracala wrote: If i understand correctly for example Tastosis still can cast ASL but not LIVE and they can cast VODs only on AfreecaTV? That should not be a problem,they can watch and cast games just after live is finish. If thats possible they can open channel for donation and set whats the minimum amount of money to do that. Im sure we can earn more money then they would ask for that!
They can't cast on Afreeca because they're twitch partners. Same reason Afreeca big streamers can't stream on Twitch.
The streaming industry is really shitty like that.
Hmm but i see more and more SC players stream on afreeca and twitch at the same time? Maybe they will allow them to stream or upload on youtube i dont know. I really hope something will happen and we will enjoy in ASL again with Tastosis!
If Afreeca guys can't monetize 100k views per VOD on Youtube, that means they are morons. Then they come up with the brilliant solution, don't do Youtube anymore (and lose 100k views/VOD). As I said, morons ...
Whenever I watched the streams the ads were in Korean, which English speakers wouldn't understand or be interested in the products.
I'd like to thank them for providing English commentators for so long as it seemed a goodwill gesture to the foreign community rather than a business decision to make money from.
We just need to get as much starcraft off afreeca as possible, if we had all of the korean players on twitch broodwar would be such a bigger game. But because it's almost impossible to access the good content outside of korea nobody will ever find out. Afreeca has probably done more to hold back the popularity of broodwar than anyone else (besides blizzard ofc).
This is so upsetting. Literally the only esports I watch is those two casting ASL...
Is there a chance they would stream/cast it on Afreeca? If it was on twitch surely they would make their old Afreeca salaries back in donations and subs! Dunno about on Afreeca though, with how unapproachable it is for English speakers.
On March 03 2021 23:08 Qikz wrote: The streaming industry is really shitty like that.
Don't blame the whole industry, bro. Facebook does not enforce exclusivity, Youtube does not enforce exclusivity, Goodgame does not enforce exclusivity, Wasd does not enforce exclusivity.
Only Twitch does. For the tournaments they paid no single cent.
On March 03 2021 20:05 Crateros wrote: Have you guys clicked on https://www.afreecatv.com/? What did you expect? It looks as bad as it gets. Their whole attempt to step into the english sector was a giant flop. They are happy with their page running on League of Legends and Camgirls.
And it not like having a stream team is gonna rip a noticable whole in their budget. Especially when you cover the rest of the world
Agreed, not to mention the constant buffering issues which has been there for the past few years which is still happens to this date.
I hope theres at least still the Korean YT stream, because AfreecaTV does not work very well for most people (I've usually been fine, but 99% of people I talk to do not have a good time).
The lack of english commentary is a shame because it'll prevent more people from coming in, but if it means that we also lose even more of our ability to watch (because of afreeca being dookie) then that's even worse...
Sudden, unexpected, and very very sad. I have been keeping an eye out for news of the next ASL as watching Tastosis cast BW is the geekiest thing I do that I tell people about with the utmost enthusiasm.
This combined with the slow death of Blizzard (or grotesque zombification of Blizz by Activision) feels like we are at the end of an era.
I know fans will keep things alive, it's just a shame to lose such a well produced stream for the english speaking community.
Been awhile since I last posted bc I only lurk watch and play now but wanted to say that I was a viewer who did not watch much sc:bw, but I watched almost all of the Tastosis casted ASLs and I think this sucks because that was high quality content
On March 03 2021 14:09 FlaShFTW wrote: While this is certainly sad, people here arguing that it's stupid need to calm down and look at it from Afreeca's business perspective.
Afreeca is a KOREAN based platform. It hosts a KOREAN tournament during KOREAN hours. Hardly any English speakers are watching during those hours anyways. A business will generally only pay if they will get financial gains back from an investment. Afreeca invests in casters to promote their games, get additional sponsorship and ad revenue, and attract viewers to watch. Why have commentators in the first place? To make the product more enjoyable and watchable.
Tastosis, unfortunately, are not worth the investment. While they certainly make the product much more enjoyable from an English viewer perspective, not enough viewers tune in to watch. Even fewer are ever buying any products shown via the advertisements (the products are Korean), and only a tiny fraction of the viewers will ever spend money on Afreeca perks or donations. The English fans who watch aren't watching Afreeca so much as they are watching Tastosis, then jump ship immediately. You aren't staying on the website, you aren't buying any of the ad products, so what's the purpose of paying Tastosis money on something that yields almost ZERO returns?
At the end of the day, it is a Korean company sponsoring a game that, while has seen tremendous growth in the foreign audiences, has not seen the growth translate to viewer counts and increased revenue.
However, I would urge Afreeca to allow people to use and upload their own English casts, not just on AfreecaTV, but also Twitch or Youtube. While it is understandable that Afreeca wants all the viewership traffic to their website, there are so many people that just wait for the Youtube video anyways and don't go to Afreeca.tv ever. To me, they lose hardly anything by allowing foreign communities to enjoy the casting in their own languages.
they already dont allow korean starcraft progamer youtubes to upload their own full games, but just limit it to 7 min highlight at most. The whole streaming platform between youtube and afreeca is tilting too, so do expect more changes going forward.
It's really tilting for sure. Unfortunately, Afreeca has too much to lose by sharing their rights to other platforms. Who knows how many current Afreeca Korean users would actually migrate over to Youtube/Twitch if they streamed on there. One reason I enjoyed KSL so much was that it was casted on Twitch.
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
is the only way to get the clean feed to contact them through that form or is it somewhere streamed on their site
Yep, you get a clean feed that you usually need Potplayer to plug in the addresses and stuff. Very simple honestly, they'll help you figure it out too.
On March 03 2021 23:17 The Intrepid wrote: If Afreeca guys can't monetize 100k views per VOD on Youtube, that means they are morons. Then they come up with the brilliant solution, don't do Youtube anymore (and lose 100k views/VOD). As I said, morons ...
Dude... do you know how much money 100k views on Youtube even gets you?
On March 03 2021 22:49 bracala wrote: If i understand correctly for example Tastosis still can cast ASL but not LIVE and they can cast VODs only on AfreecaTV? That should not be a problem,they can watch and cast games just after live is finish. If thats possible they can open channel for donation and set whats the minimum amount of money to do that. Im sure we can earn more money then they would ask for that!
They can't cast on Afreeca because they're twitch partners. Same reason Afreeca big streamers can't stream on Twitch.
The streaming industry is really shitty like that.
Hmm but i see more and more SC players stream on afreeca and twitch at the same time? Maybe they will allow them to stream or upload on youtube i dont know. I really hope something will happen and we will enjoy in ASL again with Tastosis!
They sacrifice to be partnered with Twitch (and Afreeca?)
People that stream on all platforms (YT, Twitch, Afreeca) have to pay a tax of 40% from their donations on Afreeca. Premium partners (like Flash, Bisu etc) only pay 20% I think.
On March 03 2021 23:17 The Intrepid wrote: If Afreeca guys can't monetize 100k views per VOD on Youtube, that means they are morons. Then they come up with the brilliant solution, don't do Youtube anymore (and lose 100k views/VOD). As I said, morons ...
100K views on YT today won't net you even 100$ for that video, and that's probably overestimating it.
Although I am sure Afreeca does not get anything for any of their VODs simply because it's de-monetized by Youtube for using copy-righted music.
On March 04 2021 01:26 PanoRaMa wrote: Does Tastosis even need to recast off of a clean feed, live? Half the globe already watches ASL on a delay because of time zone issues.
If the community were to financially support Tastosis, would it be legally possible for them to recast from KCM and ASL vods?
Unless they're willing to break their twitch partner contracts they won't be able to legally recast from VODs as they can't stream on Afreeca.
On March 03 2021 14:09 FlaShFTW wrote: While this is certainly sad, people here arguing that it's stupid need to calm down and look at it from Afreeca's business perspective.
Afreeca is a KOREAN based platform. It hosts a KOREAN tournament during KOREAN hours. Hardly any English speakers are watching during those hours anyways. A business will generally only pay if they will get financial gains back from an investment. Afreeca invests in casters to promote their games, get additional sponsorship and ad revenue, and attract viewers to watch. Why have commentators in the first place? To make the product more enjoyable and watchable.
Tastosis, unfortunately, are not worth the investment. While they certainly make the product much more enjoyable from an English viewer perspective, not enough viewers tune in to watch. Even fewer are ever buying any products shown via the advertisements (the products are Korean), and only a tiny fraction of the viewers will ever spend money on Afreeca perks or donations. The English fans who watch aren't watching Afreeca so much as they are watching Tastosis, then jump ship immediately. You aren't staying on the website, you aren't buying any of the ad products, so what's the purpose of paying Tastosis money on something that yields almost ZERO returns?
At the end of the day, it is a Korean company sponsoring a game that, while has seen tremendous growth in the foreign audiences, has not seen the growth translate to viewer counts and increased revenue.
However, I would urge Afreeca to allow people to use and upload their own English casts, not just on AfreecaTV, but also Twitch or Youtube. While it is understandable that Afreeca wants all the viewership traffic to their website, there are so many people that just wait for the Youtube video anyways and don't go to Afreeca.tv ever. To me, they lose hardly anything by allowing foreign communities to enjoy the casting in their own languages.
they already dont allow korean starcraft progamer youtubes to upload their own full games, but just limit it to 7 min highlight at most. The whole streaming platform between youtube and afreeca is tilting too, so do expect more changes going forward.
It's really tilting for sure. Unfortunately, Afreeca has too much to lose by sharing their rights to other platforms. Who knows how many current Afreeca Korean users would actually migrate over to Youtube/Twitch if they streamed on there. One reason I enjoyed KSL so much was that it was casted on Twitch.
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
is the only way to get the clean feed to contact them through that form or is it somewhere streamed on their site
Yep, you get a clean feed that you usually need Potplayer to plug in the addresses and stuff. Very simple honestly, they'll help you figure it out too.
On March 03 2021 23:17 The Intrepid wrote: If Afreeca guys can't monetize 100k views per VOD on Youtube, that means they are morons. Then they come up with the brilliant solution, don't do Youtube anymore (and lose 100k views/VOD). As I said, morons ...
Dude... do you know how much money 100k views on Youtube even gets you?
This is a reaction to the state of affairs now.
I get it, they're a small local streaming service that cannot hope to compete.
The main thing that is baffling is the following: They control an entire esports scene. They have access to the best players and they are connected to the most high-end esports industry in the world.
They have had this position for years. And they chose to remain local and small, and are now downsizing again.
I understand all the issues, the clashes with Twitch, Youtube, with Actiblizz even (as they wage their crusade to maintain monopoly control over their esports - which is a whole'n'other level of corporate insanity).
Yet, reflecting Korea as a whole in the last 20 decades, they chose to do relatively nothing with a unique anomaly that created an entire industry.
Instead, they chose to strip-mine whatever is left of Brood War - something that is lasting even longer than anyone would have expected - considering the criminal neglect and outright sabotage over the years. Now that the impossible to foresee downturn is coming, they're just shrugging it off and accepting their fate?
They have a product, it is the Korean esports scene.
You're telling me that that is not a commodity worth trading? To allow them to step outside the confines of their own platform to monetize?
At this point, I'll point towards Blizzards monopolizing tendencies again - and wonder how much of Brood war's continued bleating of the heart monitor is due to total indifference in a game and scene that does not register on the Kotick bi-monthly growth increase chart of giving a shit.
Honestly, there is a timeline where Blizzard and valve switched places, where it was Blizzard that sustained a mod from '98 from its inception to world-dominating esport and where CS got stranded on Contition Zero.
But no, DOTA is a valve game and Actibliz made 2 C'ds and is making a third for Diablo II (which is totally not going to be a shitshow, cuz they said it won't be).
And here we have Korea squandering 20 years of 'something that shouldn't have ever happened and will never happen again' and mosey on into the sunset, consumed by the amalgam that is global esports - nothing more than an extended marketing campaign; something a 20 year old game doesn't need.
This really hurts, and although I can understand that this is a simple business decision, I really can't help but feel they never really tried to make the English cast make business sense.
One thing I've never seen on the ASL English casts is an English commercial. Every single commercial was Korean, which understandably means they get zero return on investment from the overseas audience. Right now when you look at the ASL S10 playlist, you'll see that the finals had 135,761 views and the third place match had 100,683 views. I think that's only views after the stream ended though, since Youtube is a terrible platform and doesn't seem to save how many people actually watched it live. But regardless, are you telling me they couldn't find an English language sponsor to make those numbers commercially viable? Surely that can't be the case.
In reality I think this has more to do with them not wanting to stream on alternative platforms anymore, and they know that overseas viewers just don't use AfreecaTV. So basically the English ASL stream has become a victim of streaming platform politics. This is gonna leave me feeling sour when I rewatch old ASL broadcasts and the AfreecaTV CEO comes on stage to get his round of applause before it begins.
Then again, maybe it's just that the pandemic has nullified ticket sales and that just means they needed to cut costs. If that's the case then hopefully after the COVID situation improves there will be an English cast again.
On March 03 2021 14:09 FlaShFTW wrote: While this is certainly sad, people here arguing that it's stupid need to calm down and look at it from Afreeca's business perspective.
Afreeca is a KOREAN based platform. It hosts a KOREAN tournament during KOREAN hours. Hardly any English speakers are watching during those hours anyways. A business will generally only pay if they will get financial gains back from an investment. Afreeca invests in casters to promote their games, get additional sponsorship and ad revenue, and attract viewers to watch. Why have commentators in the first place? To make the product more enjoyable and watchable.
Tastosis, unfortunately, are not worth the investment. While they certainly make the product much more enjoyable from an English viewer perspective, not enough viewers tune in to watch. Even fewer are ever buying any products shown via the advertisements (the products are Korean), and only a tiny fraction of the viewers will ever spend money on Afreeca perks or donations. The English fans who watch aren't watching Afreeca so much as they are watching Tastosis, then jump ship immediately. You aren't staying on the website, you aren't buying any of the ad products, so what's the purpose of paying Tastosis money on something that yields almost ZERO returns?
At the end of the day, it is a Korean company sponsoring a game that, while has seen tremendous growth in the foreign audiences, has not seen the growth translate to viewer counts and increased revenue.
However, I would urge Afreeca to allow people to use and upload their own English casts, not just on AfreecaTV, but also Twitch or Youtube. While it is understandable that Afreeca wants all the viewership traffic to their website, there are so many people that just wait for the Youtube video anyways and don't go to Afreeca.tv ever. To me, they lose hardly anything by allowing foreign communities to enjoy the casting in their own languages.
they already dont allow korean starcraft progamer youtubes to upload their own full games, but just limit it to 7 min highlight at most. The whole streaming platform between youtube and afreeca is tilting too, so do expect more changes going forward.
It's really tilting for sure. Unfortunately, Afreeca has too much to lose by sharing their rights to other platforms. Who knows how many current Afreeca Korean users would actually migrate over to Youtube/Twitch if they streamed on there. One reason I enjoyed KSL so much was that it was casted on Twitch.
On March 03 2021 22:37 quaristice wrote:
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
is the only way to get the clean feed to contact them through that form or is it somewhere streamed on their site
Yep, you get a clean feed that you usually need Potplayer to plug in the addresses and stuff. Very simple honestly, they'll help you figure it out too.
On March 03 2021 23:17 The Intrepid wrote: If Afreeca guys can't monetize 100k views per VOD on Youtube, that means they are morons. Then they come up with the brilliant solution, don't do Youtube anymore (and lose 100k views/VOD). As I said, morons ...
Dude... do you know how much money 100k views on Youtube even gets you?
This is a reaction to the state of affairs now.
I get it, they're a small local streaming service that cannot hope to compete.
The main thing that is baffling is the following: They control an entire esports scene. They have access to the best players and they are connected to the most high-end esports industry in the world.
They have had this position for years. And they chose to remain local and small, and are now downsizing again.
I understand all the issues, the clashes with Twitch, Youtube, with Actiblizz even (as they wage their crusade to maintain monopoly control over their esports - which is a whole'n'other level of corporate insanity).
Yet, reflecting Korea as a whole in the last 20 decades, they chose to do relatively nothing with a unique anomaly that created an entire industry.
Instead, they chose to strip-mine whatever is left of Brood War - something that is lasting even longer than anyone would have expected - considering the criminal neglect and outright sabotage over the years. Now that the impossible to foresee downturn is coming, they're just shrugging it off and accepting their fate?
They have a product, it is the Korean esports scene.
You're telling me that that is not a commodity worth trading? To allow them to step outside the confines of their own platform to monetize?
At this point, I'll point towards Blizzards monopolizing tendencies again - and wonder how much of Brood war's continued bleating of the heart monitor is due to total indifference in a game and scene that does not register on the Kotick bi-monthly growth increase chart of giving a shit.
Honestly, there is a timeline where Blizzard and valve switched places, where it was Blizzard that sustained a mod from '98 from its inception to world-dominating esport and where CS got stranded on Contition Zero.
But no, DOTA is a valve game and Actibliz made 2 C'ds and is making a third for Diablo II (which is totally not going to be a shitshow, cuz they said it won't be).
And here we have Korea squandering 20 years of 'something that shouldn't have ever happened and will never happen again' and mosey on into the sunset, consumed by the amalgam that is global esports - nothing more than an extended marketing campaign; something a 20 year old game doesn't need.
Yes, they don't care what happens outside of Korea. Sucks that SC is locked there.
On March 04 2021 01:26 PanoRaMa wrote: Does Tastosis even need to recast off of a clean feed, live? Half the globe already watches ASL on a delay because of time zone issues.
If the community were to financially support Tastosis, would it be legally possible for them to recast from KCM and ASL vods?
Unless they're willing to break their twitch partner contracts they won't be able to legally recast from VODs as they can't stream on Afreeca.
I understand the Twitch Partner contract, but I'm referring to simply recasting and uploading vods onto YouTube with their English casting. It won't have anything to do with Twitch, I just wonder if it will cause an issue with AfreecaTV. Again, a lot of people consume their ASL the day-after via YouTube anyway.
If recasting ASL is a no-go, then what about KCM vods? And so on.
Logged on to my TL account for the first time in 9 ish years to express my disappointment with this. Hopefully they will allow some form of compromise because this is easily my favorite type of esports event.
Tastosis was the only reason why i started watching korean Starcraft tournaments from 2016 - from the first ASL it got me hooked. Personally i have not played SC multiplayer since 2010 and i never thought i would find myself interested in this game in any way (playing or watching), but it became my all time favorite game to watch.
And now this devastating news comes... I believe Artosis will still comment on the matches in his personal stream just like he does not with the caster muse in his youtube channel.
This is terrible news. I would definitely be interested in financially supporting a crowdfunding option for Tastostis to cast the tournament independently even if it's in poorer quality overcasting the korean VODs.
On March 03 2021 11:37 Gourmand wrote: 100000 views and more on most videos on Youtube is still not enough, to keep this going? I don't get it.
Yeah that is weird... I've had a couple of different youtube channels in the past and 100,000 views per videos is definitely a fair amount of ads revenue that could go on to pay the casters.
I feel sorry for the casters, the audience for whom English (or Tastosis, I guess) is a make-or-break element of StarCraft, and any future potential fans who will miss out on this great game because of the language and website barriers involved. Personally, though, this doesn't change anything for me, as I have enjoyed and preferred Korean commentary over English commentary, even though I don't understand most of it, since I started watching over a decade ago.
Thanks ASL for supporting an English speaking audience for as long as they did. Suprised it lasted so long to be honest.
Time for English speaking casters who do it for the love of BW to broadcast and come to the fore instead. Hopefully TL will find and feature every single one of them when ASL 11 starts up.
Big thank you to Tasteless and Artosis for all the ASL casting they have done. Also big thank you to Afreeca for giving us the English cast in the past. This news is punch to the gut. The worst thing is that it seems it's not even about money/ROI but about politics Hopefully Tastosis can figure out a way to keep casting ASL.
Really sucks. On one hand, ASL kept BW going in the post Kespa era and I'm really thankful for that. And if they want to say "we don't give a fuck about you" to the foreign fans, fine. But don't be strict about wanting an english stream of asl to be on Afreeca.
Sucks for Artosis/Tasteless especially.
Really just makes you wanna say "fuck off" to ASL.
I believe cancelling ASL english casting is a mistake, and I want to add my voice to the chorus of us here on TL expressing our disappointment and urging ASL to reconsider. I would have used Afreeca to watch, but the website rarely worked for me. I would pay for a season ticket to watch ASL, but there is no option to do so. To just cancel feels like bullshit, we never had any chance to really support Afreeca beyond just watching it on YouTube.
On March 04 2021 06:08 LHK wrote: I believe cancelling ASL english casting is a mistake, and I want to add my voice to the chorus of us here on TL expressing our disappointment and urging ASL to reconsider. I would have used Afreeca to watch, but the website rarely worked for me. I would pay for a season ticket to watch ASL, but there is no option to do so. To just cancel feels like bullshit, we never had any chance to really support Afreeca beyond just watching it on YouTube.
Yeah this is the worst part of it for me -- I think many of us would be willing to directly support if there was a mechanism to do so. The fact of the matter is though, Afreeca doesn't care about foreigners, so why bother?
On March 04 2021 05:57 ExO_ wrote: Really just makes you wanna say "fuck off" to ASL.
How about no? Top level players and games will still be there, so how about we not be whiny children about it? This may be upsetting to those who for whatever reason can't watch Brood War without English, but it's ludicrous to tell the most prominent bastion of Brood War to fuck off.
On March 04 2021 05:57 ExO_ wrote: Really just makes you wanna say "fuck off" to ASL.
How about no? Top level players and games will still be there, so how about we not be whiny children about it? This may be upsetting to those who for whatever reason can't watch Brood War without English, but it's ludicrous to tell the most prominent bastion of Brood War to fuck off.
It's what they just told the foreign fans. And I acknowledge how important ASL has been in keeping BW going, and still feel angry about this decision.
On March 04 2021 05:57 ExO_ wrote: Really just makes you wanna say "fuck off" to ASL.
How about no? Top level players and games will still be there, so how about we not be whiny children about it? This may be upsetting to those who for whatever reason can't watch Brood War without English, but it's ludicrous to tell the most prominent bastion of Brood War to fuck off.
I think they are coming from the point of view that they are watching ASL mostly cuz Tastosis is in.And it makes sense cuz they are product well followed.For example when i casted ASTL on afreeca the max viewers i got was like 300. im 100% sure those were hardcore fans of the game.Tastosis is able to bring way more.And i think is good to bring outside viewers. (from SC2) to Broodwar. But i also agree that i watched my whole life games in Korean.Even if i dont understand a thing it is just the perfect OST to the games
On March 04 2021 05:57 ExO_ wrote: Really just makes you wanna say "fuck off" to ASL.
How about no? Top level players and games will still be there, so how about we not be whiny children about it? This may be upsetting to those who for whatever reason can't watch Brood War without English, but it's ludicrous to tell the most prominent bastion of Brood War to fuck off.
I think they are coming from the point of view that they are watching ASL mostly cuz Tastosis is in.And it makes sense cuz they are product well followed.For example when i casted ASTL on afreeca the max viewers i got was like 300. im 100% sure those were hardcore fans of the game.Tastosis is able to bring way more.And i think is good to bring outside viewers. (from SC2) to Broodwar. But i also agree that i watched my whole life games in Koreans.Even if i dont understand a thing it is just the perfect OST to the games
Yea, I totally understand the attraction of prominent personalities in the scene, and I do empathize with the loss those individuals experience after this announcement. However, that still isn't a reason to tell ASL to "fuck off," that's just childish.
On March 04 2021 05:57 ExO_ wrote: Really just makes you wanna say "fuck off" to ASL.
How about no? Top level players and games will still be there, so how about we not be whiny children about it? This may be upsetting to those who for whatever reason can't watch Brood War without English, but it's ludicrous to tell the most prominent bastion of Brood War to fuck off.
I think they are coming from the point of view that they are watching ASL mostly cuz Tastosis is in.And it makes sense cuz they are product well followed.For example when i casted ASTL on afreeca the max viewers i got was like 300. im 100% sure those were hardcore fans of the game.Tastosis is able to bring way more.And i think is good to bring outside viewers. (from SC2) to Broodwar. But i also agree that i watched my whole life games in Koreans.Even if i dont understand a thing it is just the perfect OST to the games
Yea, I totally understand the attraction of prominent personalities in the scene, and I do empathize with the loss those individuals experience after this announcement. However, that still isn't a reason to tell ASL to "fuck off," that's just childish.
I think this is an oversimplification -- I've been watching BW since the days of 144p streams were you can barely see what's happening. I watched power outage beat Jaedong and Flash live. This was largely before english casts were a thing.
English casts are much better than non-english casts. And unfortunately, attempting to watch BW on Afreeca has given me mixed results at best. Their client often doesn't load for me, and it's not exactly like there is English support for issues on Afreeca.
I don't want to go back to the days of watching a shitty stream with shitty quality. That's obviously not where this is it, but it's a move backwards imo.
This'll be my first post in years...essentially reviving from the dead.
Been watching GOM/ASL since I was 13. I'm 33 now. Sad time. Unfortunately, the money just isn't there anymore. The decision makes sense financially for ASL, but it's a devastating loss for the English community/fans.
Hopefully some form of casts continue into the future.
Fortunately it could have been worse. Tastosis probably had non-compete clauses restricting them from certain activities. Lately Artosis started a new channel casting a korean game daily. These are really good. Whilst nothing can beat the combo of the two of them, it is at least now owned by Artosis himself and we do not risk an executive decision from non other then the man himself(which will never happen). In other words he can grow his base and keep his income and perhaps create something from that which is sustainable, it requires us all to watch and follow to so go for it;
It can't be understated how much of a blow this is for the non-korean starcraft scene. When Afreeca says "clean feed" do they mean they are providing one that won't have the audio from korean casters?
Honestly really surprised by the amount of people who seem really affected by this. Of course, it could be selection bias because only the most vocal will go through the trouble of logging in and making a post, but still. I was firmly convinced that I was in the majority of viewers in that I preferred the Korean casting and at worst could watch with no casting at all and not feel much deprived (such as during player streams). I guess I underestimated how many casual viewers there are, which is the demographic I feel must be most attached to English commentary.
On March 04 2021 07:54 Jealous wrote: Honestly really surprised by the amount of people who seem really affected by this. Of course, it could be selection bias because only the most vocal will go through the trouble of logging in and making a post, but still. I was firmly convinced that I was in the majority of viewers in that I preferred the Korean casting and at worst could watch with no casting at all and not feel much deprived (such as during player streams). I guess I underestimated how many casual viewers there are, which is the demographic I feel must be most attached to English commentary.
This thread already has the same amount of posts as the LR thread of the last ASL finals, lol. It's a lot of people who don't usually post so I would be hesitant to call them the vocal minority.
Anyways, I think the viewership of streams show that people prefer english over korean streams. In the echo chamber of TL that may seem a bit different but I think in terms of actual numbers, the people who prefer the korean stream are actually the vocal minority (on TL). The high number of viewers on koreans streams stems from actual koreans I assume. Also, as it was eluded to before, a lot care about Tastosis more than about other casts or BW in general. Although I would also say that other tournaments get way less viewership than ASL general so it's not really comparable (300 views on ASTL doesn't seem too bad TT1).
LOL at all the people talking about the "foreign BW community" that re-registered or logged in for the first time in 5 years just to post here.
This really sucks, but the sad reality is it makes perfect financial sense. Maybe AfreecaTV could have done better to leverage the foreign audience here, but let's not pretend they were really raking it in from those 50-100k youtube views.
On March 04 2021 06:35 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I think they are coming from the point of view that they are watching ASL mostly cuz Tastosis is in.And it makes sense cuz they are product well followed.For example when i casted ASTL on afreeca the max viewers i got was like 300. im 100% sure those were hardcore fans of the game.Tastosis is able to bring way more.And i think is good to bring outside viewers. (from SC2) to Broodwar. But i also agree that i watched my whole life games in Korean.Even if i dont understand a thing it is just the perfect OST to the games
I don't necessarily agree with that. It's basically impossible to feel any sort of connection to a group of distinct players drawn together to form a "team" who'll just go their separate ways straight after. Seems to be making content between ASL seasons just for the sake of it to fill time. It's more or less the complete opposite of Proleague, where there is an actual connection between the players within the teams that can span across multiple seasons, each of which was much, much longer. I'd watch it pretty much every morning, and would never miss a Stars game even if I needed to catch up on VODs. On the other hand, I don't think I've watched a single set of ASTL. Nothing to do with the casters and I find it pretty much impossible to believe that people are only watching ASL because of Tastosis (unless they are using Tastosis as a proxy for "some sort of English commentator")
How about A BIG FUCKING NO!!! I'm so angry and I don't even know how to express my feelings right now. Everything that happens lately feels like we're downgrading, going backwards. Ok whatever, then let Tastosis to cast games from their homes, give them clear audio channel with only game sounds on, we will support them!
Some of y'all are acting like Afreeca's official message was "we hate people outside of Korea. Fuck you." when this is clearly a business decision. Quit taking things so personally. If Afreeca can't financially justify the English ASL stream anymore, then they can't justify the English ASL stream anymore. As much as we'd all love for them to support all forms of starcraft out of the kindness of their hearts, they are a business and they have people to pay, targets to hit, and investors to please. It's just business. Passion only gets you so far.
On March 04 2021 07:54 Jealous wrote: Honestly really surprised by the amount of people who seem really affected by this. Of course, it could be selection bias because only the most vocal will go through the trouble of logging in and making a post, but still. I was firmly convinced that I was in the majority of viewers in that I preferred the Korean casting and at worst could watch with no casting at all and not feel much deprived (such as during player streams). I guess I underestimated how many casual viewers there are, which is the demographic I feel must be most attached to English commentary.
On March 04 2021 07:54 Jealous wrote: Honestly really surprised by the amount of people who seem really affected by this. Of course, it could be selection bias because only the most vocal will go through the trouble of logging in and making a post, but still. I was firmly convinced that I was in the majority of viewers in that I preferred the Korean casting and at worst could watch with no casting at all and not feel much deprived (such as during player streams). I guess I underestimated how many casual viewers there are, which is the demographic I feel must be most attached to English commentary.
This surprised you? The ASL views for their English VoDs are pretty gigantic compared to numbers for much else I’ve seen from foreign land, ofc it’s a big showy tournament so that of course is a huge boost too.
I’m not alone in folks I know in playing BW as a kid, not knowing TL even existed and discovering this whole scene with a rich history after SC2 launched. Read many a TL feature, watched many a VoD and stream since and bemoaning this whole world I would have loved if I’d have found it.
Maybe if I’d started grinding BW in my early 20s I’d be up to a certain level to understand the games in more than simplistic terms.
As it is I’m 31 and my various responsibilities both human and otherwise would be quite pissed off at me if I started grinding BW, although it would be nice. I kind of rely on casters pointing out subtleties, LR threads on here too if they’re active enough.
On the plus side I do know who the players are, their rough styles and histories, their personalities now more so thanks to some great translations from jinjin.
Tasteless and Artosis are the bridge from SC2 players who either through burnout in that game or just fondness for BW that they may have played casually to know vaguely what is going on in games, and also (which is I feel understated), framing who the players are, what they’re like, what the stakes are. Those things any decent English caster can provide but Tastosis were the soundtrack to many of the great moments in our game of choice and having two old friends easing you in to another game was great.
I mean I’m 1/2, lacking the sufficient game knowledge to really get a good nuanced flavour of what’s going on, but at least I know the players etc. For people who are 0/2 I mean, why would you watch a game you can’t follow what the players are doing and you don’t know who the players are?
I could envisage me checking out the odd game still without English coms, be it a particularly hyped matchup or pure Bisu fanboyism.
It just thoroughly sucks all round really, I hope some English option is possible, Ive enjoyed guys like Nyoken in the recent past so it doesn’t have to be Tastosis or anything!
I think there’s far too much anger being thrown at Afreeca here at times, much as it sucks.
The foreign viewership for BW is not that big and doesn't justify the additional cost of english casting. It's completely immature to hate on them for that.
Anyway I'm used to watching Proleague/OSL/MSL in korean, so time for some nostalgia
Could be wrong but I feel there are enough brood war fans willing to pay for a Tastosis cast that some kind of Patreon should be possible. ASL is like 20+ hours of content. Don't really know if some kind of live cast would be possible through patreon using the afreecatv feed but even casted youtube VODs would be great.
On March 04 2021 09:59 jakarti wrote: Could be wrong but I feel there are enough brood war fans willing to pay for a Tastosis cast that some kind of Patreon should be possible. ASL is like 20+ hours of content. Don't really know if some kind of live cast would be possible through patreon using the afreecatv feed but even casted youtube VODs would be great.
i have never subscribed for a single Patreon, but i'd pay 100 bucks to watch an ASL season english casted live in studio as usual. for real, Afreeca, you're paying the best SC commentators and waste them on fucking Valorant. did I just say fuck you?
This sucks. I always wondered how it worked for ASL so it makes sense but it really sucks. Hope Artosis is Ok.
Bleh. I really, really enjoyed the Tastosis casts. Caught all of them on youtube.
Thanks for what you did ASL. Thanks for allowing restreams. Glad you're hosting a great event again. Wish there was some way for foreign BW casts to continue for tastosis.
Worst news ever it was a good run though, was really fun while it lasted. I was worried this might happen tbh so it isn’t a huge surprise.
If there is any possibility of at least pursuing the option of crowdfunding I would happily contribute to it. Give us a direct way to support ASL English casts and I’m certain it will happen.
Reviving my account also since maybe 10 years ago.
I watched every ASL and SC2 tournaments when it was still GOMTV and became very attached to the English cast. We see players come and go due to different reasons but our cast is always there with us.
I don't know what to say but sure am disappointed.
I am Very Sad to hear this news. I thought a lot more positively of Afreeca than I do at this moment. Afreeca, please undo this. Put them back into the casters chairs and start charging money. Tasteless and Artosis have created a community from nothing. They are smart, they know what they're doing. I have laughed so hard at so many of their random rants and jokes over the years. I would wake up early during an ASL Season just to lay in bed and listen to the casts. I'd happily pay to see them cast broodwar. I really hope they can work as a team and create their own broodwar tournament or something. They have something so special together. Thank you to Artosis and Tasteless for all the years of epic Starcraft.
On March 04 2021 10:30 ruhtraeel wrote: I'm also holding out hope that once COVID is over, Afreeca will have enough of a revenue bump again to be able to hire Tastosis for casting.
If anything shouldn't Afreeca have higher revenues during Covid because people are home more and hence watch streams more?
So tastosis are twitch tv partners, they can not open their own channels to stream on Afreeca. And Afreeca wants the re-streams to happen on Afreeca platform. Is there any way around this?
Hey, new guy here, coming to support the noise, Just wrote a letter to Afreeca and encourage you to do so as well. But please stop effing koreans, it's stupid and it won't help. In the meantime, let's listen to Dan and Nick since they are the only ones who know the ins and outs of the situation and see what options do we have.
The saddest part about this to me is the fact that if Afreeca TV allowed the foreign brood war community to crowd fund Tasteless's and Artosis's salaries with no cost to them I'm 100% sure they would receive much more money than the original cost of their salaries. It' just such a waste and if they had more open minded thinking it wouldn't need to happen. They simply needed to put a small fee for foreign viewers and I can say personally id be more than happen to pay it.
I understand in their current format it's not worth it to them, they're a business. But most good business adjust their business model before abandoning something completely. Very sad times. As someone who has followed brood war before you could even watch vods ( live report only), Tastosis were my favorites of all time. They will be missed.
Perhaps if we did our own crowd funding and showed them it would be the real concrete proof of concept needed to get the result we all want?
On March 04 2021 15:39 Sirris wrote: The saddest part about this to me is the fact that if Afreeca TV allowed the foreign brood war community to crowd fund Tasteless's and Artosis's salaries with no cost to them I'm 100% sure they would receive much more money than the original cost of their salaries. It' just such a waste and if they had more open minded thinking it wouldn't need to happen. They simply needed to put a small fee for foreign viewers and I can say personally id be more than happen to pay it.
I understand in their current format it's not worth it to them, they're a business. But most good business adjust their business model before abandoning something completely. Very sad times. As someone who has followed brood war before you could even watch vods ( live report only), Tastosis were my favorites of all time. They will be missed.
Perhaps if we did our own crowd funding and showed them it would be the real concrete proof of concept needed to get the result we all want?
Why are we all talks no action? either Tastosis or community leaders like Zero/Rusbrain/many other organisers I have missed need to step up and start the Fundraising effort.
get the tl/bw foreigner community leaders and Tastosis on a discord, talk action. "lets prepare the fundraising to see if the community really supports us, step 1,2,3 etc"
Well that's the end of ASL for me then. It's not even a Tastosis thing, it's the moving it off Youtube that kills it for me. Afreeca is a glitchy, buggy, laggy hellhole here and I refuse to even acknowledge it. So if any streams are going to locked to Afreeca then I'm sadly done. Shame really.
This was pretty much the only broodwar content I was seeing (except an artosis video from time to time). I am honestly not so interested in foreign leagues. To me BW is pretty much dead now Anyways thanks ASL for the good content of the last years, this was one of my favourite esports formats
If we can fight for a line in the sand that says, "This can be restreamed anywhere". Then I think the foreign scene can come away in good form, possibly better. It can potentially create a few live-casting careers.
If we cannot restream on the major western platforms, then this isn't just loss, this is a serious wound.
There is money and some clout on the side of "bw for all". We have on our side visibility, access to very influential koreans.
ASL should be fine letting other people make money, if they are actively refusing to do so.
There are ways to get around restreaming bans, depending on platform and country, but it is way less then ideal.
I want someone to type bw in youtube, click live and be able to join in. GRRR
I've been thinking now, for a while, that I've been really loving when Artosis does community events (like that FFA tourney that he recently did) on his stream. I could totally see a world where, if any of these other ideas don't pan out (crowdfunding for more English ASL/them selling English casting rights/etc) that people are suggesting, Tastosis could seriously just run their own StarCraft BW league on Twitch and cast it. Another foreign event would be awesome under the might of the casting archon. Hell, it doesn't even have to be the highest tier of skill to be entertaining - I absolutely loved the day9 funday monday goofy stuff from back in the day. But high skilled would be great, too. (Hell, they both live in Korea - maybe they could organize more Korean player events?)
They've both been doing pretty well with their streams and in their own private content creation, so if they teamed up and put on some events and crowdfunded them... I'd support that. 100%. The best path forward for keeping BW alive in the future is stuff like this, anyway, and they're in a great position to build it. BSL, STPL, and others have been fantastic, so something that Tastosis ran would be, too.
On a side note, I'll still continue to watch ASL when reasonable. I do have a harder time enjoying VODs with Korean casting, but I can't miss my pro Korean SC, even if it's not going to be as regular and easily accessible as it used to be. I wrote them a polite email asking for them to reconsider, but I'm not going to hate. I just hope that something positive comes out of all of this.
On March 04 2021 15:39 Sirris wrote: The saddest part about this to me is the fact that if Afreeca TV allowed the foreign brood war community to crowd fund Tasteless's and Artosis's salaries with no cost to them I'm 100% sure they would receive much more money than the original cost of their salaries. It' just such a waste and if they had more open minded thinking it wouldn't need to happen. They simply needed to put a small fee for foreign viewers and I can say personally id be more than happen to pay it.
I understand in their current format it's not worth it to them, they're a business. But most good business adjust their business model before abandoning something completely. Very sad times. As someone who has followed brood war before you could even watch vods ( live report only), Tastosis were my favorites of all time. They will be missed.
Perhaps if we did our own crowd funding and showed them it would be the real concrete proof of concept needed to get the result we all want?
Why are we all talks no action? either Tastosis or community leaders like Zero/Rusbrain/many other organisers I have missed need to step up and start the Fundraising effort.
If we truly love BW like we say we do, action.
I don't think it's on them. They've done enough. I'm sure they would all support it such an effort completely, especially when it comes to publicity. Sadly I have no skills in organizing such things, but I know someone does. If I did it no one would pay attention. But surely someone could. So I completely agree with you there of course. We could take action and convince them otherwise. There is no doubt about that. The exact way to do that is a lot more complicated. I promise my funds to any such a cause as long as it was legit. With all that said, I would say someone like Rus_brain who has a history of being reliable at utilizing crowd sourced funds would be a huge asset.
On March 04 2021 19:06 AttackZerg wrote: If we can fight for a line in the sand that says, "This can be restreamed anywhere". Then I think the foreign scene can come away in good form, possibly better. It can potentially create a few live-casting careers.
If we cannot restream on the major western platforms, then this isn't just loss, this is a serious wound.
There is money and some clout on the side of "bw for all". We have on our side visibility, access to very influential koreans.
ASL should be fine letting other people make money, if they are actively refusing to do so.
There are ways to get around restreaming bans, depending on platform and country, but it is way less then ideal.
I want someone to type bw in youtube, click live and be able to join in. GRRR
What's the move?
I think the best move is to show that the foreign community is interested in investing in our own slice of korean brood war. Restreaming is fine and all, I not saying there's anything wrong with that. But a strong community funded effort, specifically directed for raising funds for the most notable English streamers will lift up the rest of the community. It will show the Korean decision makers there really is a reason to give a shit. It will possibly change their mindsets. While lack of views and a flat out rejection from foreign viewers will close whatever doors we may have had forever. If we reject their business model entirely it will only reinforce their close minded views. We need to reach a common ground and show them that there is a real interest and a possible real investment from non Koreans. Restreams are a workaround but they will not provide a solid BOOM in your face reality that will cause Korean business to pay attention.
On March 04 2021 19:06 AttackZerg wrote: If we can fight for a line in the sand that says, "This can be restreamed anywhere". Then I think the foreign scene can come away in good form, possibly better. It can potentially create a few live-casting careers.
I totally agree. I couldn't sleep at night and was thinking about it. We can (and SHOULD) look at this situation as a possible great oppurtunity to make (foreign) Starcraft bigger.
1. Persuade afreeca to let "us" (foreigners, most likely Artosis+Tasteless with the appropiate "others") cast ASL. in exchange for money of course. (not on afreeca!) 2. Set a crowdfunding goal with this amount of money, and reach it. 3. Start casting 4. Expand and gather sponsors, make the show bigger, get someone like redbull and we will reach more viewers than in Korea. (starcraft has the potential for that)
I know there are a lot of "ifs" here (and a lot of work to be done), but I truly believe this can be achieved.
(need to be very careful with the contract with afreeca because if the english restream will be big/bigger we can't let them take it away from us, of course if that happens we could create our own tournament probably at that time from sponsors+crowdfunding would be enough)
Unfortunately I can only help with my part of the crowdfunding. I'm very excited what our community can do with this situation!
On March 04 2021 19:08 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've been thinking now, for a while, that I've been really loving when Artosis does community events (like that FFA tourney that he recently did) on his stream. I could totally see a world where, if any of these other ideas don't pan out (crowdfunding for more English ASL/them selling English casting rights/etc) that people are suggesting, Tastosis could seriously just run their own StarCraft BW league on Twitch and cast it. Another foreign event would be awesome under the might of the casting archon. Hell, it doesn't even have to be the highest tier of skill to be entertaining - I absolutely loved the day9 funday monday goofy stuff from back in the day. But high skilled would be great, too. (Hell, they both live in Korea - maybe they could organize more Korean player events?)
They've both been doing pretty well with their streams and in their own private content creation, so if they teamed up and put on some events and crowdfunded them... I'd support that. 100%. The best path forward for keeping BW alive in the future is stuff like this, anyway, and they're in a great position to build it. BSL, STPL, and others have been fantastic, so something that Tastosis ran would be, too.
On a side note, I'll still continue to watch ASL when reasonable. I do have a harder time enjoying VODs with Korean casting, but I can't miss my pro Korean SC, even if it's not going to be as regular and easily accessible as it used to be. I wrote them a polite email asking for them to reconsider, but I'm not going to hate. I just hope that something positive comes out of all of this.
While I support your call for more foreign brood war content, the fact is the ASL is the absolute best of the best in world every year. To lose our voice from such an event is really sad. That's what we need to fight for. It's not about just making seperate content from the korean scene, its about linking the two together. Lets face it , brood war is a niche market, but its a niche market with extremely passionate fans who are older now, and have resources. We could get it done.
On March 04 2021 19:08 CakeSauc3 wrote: I've been thinking now, for a while, that I've been really loving when Artosis does community events (like that FFA tourney that he recently did) on his stream. I could totally see a world where, if any of these other ideas don't pan out (crowdfunding for more English ASL/them selling English casting rights/etc) that people are suggesting, Tastosis could seriously just run their own StarCraft BW league on Twitch and cast it. Another foreign event would be awesome under the might of the casting archon. Hell, it doesn't even have to be the highest tier of skill to be entertaining - I absolutely loved the day9 funday monday goofy stuff from back in the day. But high skilled would be great, too. (Hell, they both live in Korea - maybe they could organize more Korean player events?)
They've both been doing pretty well with their streams and in their own private content creation, so if they teamed up and put on some events and crowdfunded them... I'd support that. 100%. The best path forward for keeping BW alive in the future is stuff like this, anyway, and they're in a great position to build it. BSL, STPL, and others have been fantastic, so something that Tastosis ran would be, too.
On a side note, I'll still continue to watch ASL when reasonable. I do have a harder time enjoying VODs with Korean casting, but I can't miss my pro Korean SC, even if it's not going to be as regular and easily accessible as it used to be. I wrote them a polite email asking for them to reconsider, but I'm not going to hate. I just hope that something positive comes out of all of this.
While I support your call for more foreign brood war content, the fact is the ASL is the absolute best of the best in world every year. To lose our voice from such an event is really sad. That's what we need to fight for. It's not about just making seperate content from the korean scene, its about linking the two together. Lets face it , brood war is a niche market, but its a niche market with extremely passionate fans who are older now, and have resources. We could get it done.
I only returned to BW last year because of the coronavirus pandemic, having known nothing about Tastosis, ASL or TL before. In a year my knowledge of the game has grown very strongly thanks to those, and I'm fully aware of how Tastosis casting ASL has become a really vital part of this community. Although I personally have no problem watching the Korean stream on Afreeca, as I'd watch KCM and UBE all the time, we can't let this decision just settle down like this without an effort.
The Afreecatv people cared enough about the foreign community for 10 seasons. So I'd assume they may listen if we try to communicate. There must be a way around for Tastosis to cast ASL, maybe not live, maybe not on youtube,... We have to explore the options first.
Obviously a nobody like me has no ability or credibility to lead such an effort, but I'm sure we have influential people in the TL community, who also have a connection to the Korean community (via Castermuse for example, or Tastosis themselves), to start a crowdfunding project and contact Afreeca.
If such a project can be organized, me and I'm sure many others, will be the first to contribute.
On March 04 2021 20:21 abuse wrote: kinda surprised that neither artosis or tasteless have said anything on the matter
they have, Tasteless said on twitter that it was not caused by their pay negotiations. Artosis responded to many questions on his stream, mostly clarifying what had happened.
We need action asap, I hope our BW community leaders are in intense discussion right now.
The people are ready, 40k views on this thread alone, think about other platforms, we are a mature player base with jobs, we will support crowdfunding efforts.
We need more responses from forum lurkers, stand behind one-voice guys so that Tastosis and BW community leaders have confidence to make their moves.
Lets not let this beautiful thing die in our hands.
Another poster logging in after so many years here. This hit me hard, as hard as when the BW proscene disbanded about a decade ago.
It's amazing that the BW proscene is alive and well and that we've been gifted 10 seasons of ASL with Tastosis. Props to Afreeca for supporting BW.
Now, where do we go from here to get Tastosis to cast ASL? As I understand, there are several issues involved.
Twitch partnership exclusivity Artosis and Tasteless are partners on Twitch. We do not know the specifics of their contract, but it is safe to assume that unless Twitch grants them exemptions, they are forbidden from streaming on AfreecaTV.
Brood War (along with CS) is literally the game that gave birth to esports. Twitch, an entire platform based around esports, would be doing a major favor to the father of esports by granting Tastosis an exemption, should they need one.
Twitch would not be losing out. Artosis and Tasteless's livelihoods at the moment are firmly rooted on the Twitch platform. Remember that they were already casting professionally as employees of Afreeca for 10 seasons. Not to mention that other streamers have grandfather contracts that allow them to stream elsewhere. To Twitch's benefit, this tournament could also bring viewers back in Twitch's direction - Tastosis has built an extremely loyal following over the years, and their fanbase has followed them onto Twitch.
Money for Tastosis Tastosis are the utmost professionals of their craft. We do not expect them to cast professionally for free, and we would gladly directly pay or fundraise for their casting. It's reasonable to assume that BW fans can cover the costs, given our demographic is on the older side.
Money for Afreeca Afreeca will only allow English streams on their platform. It's quite safe to say that forcing foreigners onto Afreeca would not help Afreeca in any monetary sense or in viewer numbers. The foreign community is simply unable to navigate Afreeca, let alone use its payment options. Ads on Afreeca are also not relevant. When given the choice of Afreeca or YouTube in the past, foreign viewers chose YouTube for its ease of use, familiarity, and speed.
For Afreeca to monetize the English casts effectively, the payments have to take place on a platform outside of Afreeca.
Possible solutions 1. Twitch grants partner exemptions - Tastosis streams on Afreeca. - Afreeca and Tastosis needs to be paid.
2. Twitch does not budge, but Afreeca allows streaming elsewhere for compensation - Tastosis streams on the only possible platform, Twitch (non-partner account like Valorant). - Afreeca and Tastosis needs to be paid.
How do we pay Afreeca and Tastosis? We could set up a Gofundme, Patreon or something similar. Afreeca would receive a flat fee, flat fee plus a cut, or a cut of the whole funds. This would depend Afreeca and Tastosis's negotiations.
if people only wanted English commentary, its possible to do something about it even raise money for it to get someone to rebroadcast it live and get direct feed from afreeca, we've done this before in the early seasons, I'm sure some of you remember BisuDagger and Flashftw's streams.
however getting english commentary and not having it be on afreeca is not happening, its the AFREECA starleague its going to be on afreeca, we got lucky with whatever their youtube deal was but its their deal, no way are we going to negotiate that with them, especially with twitch.
Ok then,im down to pay to watch it on Afreeca too if its not possible to be on twitch and youtube. Will someone talk to Artosis,Tasteless and someone from Afreeca to see what can be done?
On March 04 2021 21:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: if people only wanted English commentary, its possible to do something about it even raise money for it to get someone to rebroadcast it live and get direct feed from afreeca, we've done this before in the early seasons, I'm sure some of you remember BisuDagger and Flashftw's streams.
however getting english commentary and not having it be on afreeca is not happening, its the AFREECA starleague its going to be on afreeca, we got lucky with whatever their youtube deal was but its their deal, no way are we going to negotiate that with them, especially with twitch.
the AfreecaTV eng link has been on the side panel on TL everytime when ASL is on, we can click on it and sometimes it will have glitches, but most of the time it works fine.
This is not even something worth complaining about at this point, i hope we all come to an agreement that whatever happens, ASL english returns to Afreeca.
I am very sad to hear that they will not continue. It's honestly a huge part of what helps me watch since most of the time I'm working while I watch the vods and sometimes just hearing them talk about BW is all I need. Not having them will definitely hurt my viewing experience.
Some thoughts based on my experience (2-3 years with ASL, GSL, and Sonic broadcasting team): 1. Visibility - (Keep in mind that I was broadcasting ASL before the Foreign platform launched) While the AfreecaTV gave enough support for providing the stream in a timely manner, they did nothing to promote the English Stream. It is very hard to grow as an English cast if they don't advertise at all that there is an alternative stream available. Since you have to use their platform exclusively, this also hurts. Please let English casters upload to youtube in the future. I don't believe any English caster should offer their service without negotiating this.
2. Broadcast Time - The time games are played live is brutal for a lot of English Casters. Waking up at 3:30am and then having to sit through down time and commercials and then having to drive into work is just about the most miserable thing ever. See #3 for a better solution.
3. Broadcast feed - I think it would be far more beneficial to provide clean feed vods for casters so they have an opportunity to rebroadcast. Working with GomTV for Classic Season 4, all English vods were recorded and released after the games had been played using a clean feed. This was a great way to ensure that the English cast would be professional and uninterrupted by network or technical issues. I would recommend to any future casters that they request clean feed vods and make a consistent show instead of trying their best to do it live.
I am available for contact and can help produce, if anyone would like to get involved in a new community English stream.
On March 04 2021 21:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: if people only wanted English commentary, its possible to do something about it even raise money for it to get someone to rebroadcast it live and get direct feed from afreeca, we've done this before in the early seasons, I'm sure some of you remember BisuDagger and Flashftw's streams.
however getting english commentary and not having it be on afreeca is not happening, its the AFREECA starleague its going to be on afreeca, we got lucky with whatever their youtube deal was but its their deal, no way are we going to negotiate that with them, especially with twitch.
As fun and entertaining Arty and Tasteless are I actually liked more Eons casts during ASTL. And to remind before ASL Bisudagger and Sayle (for example) had great fun and analytic casts, and frankly ASL 1-4 had HORRIBLE english commentary with all Sc2 stuff.
On March 04 2021 22:36 BisuDagger wrote: I am very sad to hear that they will not continue. It's honestly a huge part of what helps me watch since most of the time I'm working while I watch the vods and sometimes just hearing them talk about BW is all I need. Not having them will definitely hurt my viewing experience.
Some thoughts based on my experience (2-3 years with ASL, GSL, and Sonic broadcasting team): 1. Visibility - (Keep in mind that I was broadcasting ASL before the Foreign platform launched) While the AfreecaTV gave enough support for providing the stream in a timely manner, they did nothing to promote the English Stream. It is very hard to grow as an English cast if they don't advertise at all that there is an alternative stream available. Since you have to use their platform exclusively, this also hurts. Please let English casters upload to youtube in the future. I don't believe any English caster should offer their service without negotiating this.
2. Broadcast Time - The time games are played live is brutal for a lot of English Casters. Waking up at 3:30am and then having to sit through down time and commercials and then having to drive into work is just about the most miserable thing ever. See #3 for a better solution.
3. Broadcast feed - I think it would be far more beneficial to provide clean feed vods for casters so they have an opportunity to rebroadcast. Working with GomTV for Classic Season 4, all English vods were recorded and released after the games had been played using a clean feed. This was a great way to ensure that the English cast would be professional and uninterrupted by network or technical issues. I would recommend to any future casters that they request clean feed vods and make a consistent show instead of trying their best to do it live.
I am available for contact and can help produce, if anyone would like to get involved in a new community English stream.
Hey you should give it a shot again, I liked your casts a lot.
On March 04 2021 22:36 BisuDagger wrote: I am very sad to hear that they will not continue. It's honestly a huge part of what helps me watch since most of the time I'm working while I watch the vods and sometimes just hearing them talk about BW is all I need. Not having them will definitely hurt my viewing experience.
Some thoughts based on my experience (2-3 years with ASL, GSL, and Sonic broadcasting team): 1. Visibility - (Keep in mind that I was broadcasting ASL before the Foreign platform launched) While the AfreecaTV gave enough support for providing the stream in a timely manner, they did nothing to promote the English Stream. It is very hard to grow as an English cast if they don't advertise at all that there is an alternative stream available. Since you have to use their platform exclusively, this also hurts. Please let English casters upload to youtube in the future. I don't believe any English caster should offer their service without negotiating this.
2. Broadcast Time - The time games are played live is brutal for a lot of English Casters. Waking up at 3:30am and then having to sit through down time and commercials and then having to drive into work is just about the most miserable thing ever. See #3 for a better solution.
3. Broadcast feed - I think it would be far more beneficial to provide clean feed vods for casters so they have an opportunity to rebroadcast. Working with GomTV for Classic Season 4, all English vods were recorded and released after the games had been played using a clean feed. This was a great way to ensure that the English cast would be professional and uninterrupted by network or technical issues. I would recommend to any future casters that they request clean feed vods and make a consistent show instead of trying their best to do it live.
I am available for contact and can help produce, if anyone would like to get involved in a new community English stream.
Hey you should give it a shot again, I liked your casts a lot.
Thanks. I'm up to two kiddos (3.5 yrs old and 8 month old) now. I've been trying to find time , but I think the youngest needs another year before I could even start to think about casting. Although, if there was someone out there who could handle all of the streaming and setup and AfreecaTV gave us clean VODs to cast from, then I would be more then happy to guest cast/co-host. But that requires a ton of work from someone else and most the of the reliable English casters are already doing a hundred things for the community.
3. Broadcast feed - I think it would be far more beneficial to provide clean feed vods for casters so they have an opportunity to rebroadcast. Working with GomTV for Classic Season 4, all English vods were recorded and released after the games had been played using a clean feed. This was a great way to ensure that the English cast would be professional and uninterrupted by network or technical issues. I would recommend to any future casters that they request clean feed vods and make a consistent show instead of trying their best to do it live.
I guess this is the important thing to ask for. If Afreeca are able to provide something that casters can work with, that would be the best thing regardless of who does it.
Agree with the other points you made re: timing issues. Their live (English) figures are always going to look shit because of the time zone issues. I've probably watched most of ASL through VODs. Live is naturally better but it's not really going to work for huge numbers where it's an awful time zone for either Europe or the US depending on which of the typical timings they use (and arguably, for the east coast of the US, it's awful for either). But I suppose the main issue is that randoms who might join the community and add to the viewing figures aren't going to go to Afreeca, they'll be looking on Twitch, and if they're watching some random RTS streamer and cannot see someone recasting ASL in a list of recommended live channels as they're on another platform, they're out of luck. We know where to watch but random bloke doesn't, and won't find it either.
On March 04 2021 22:48 BisuDagger wrote: Thanks. I'm up to two kiddos (3.5 yrs old and 8 month old) now. I've been trying to find time , but I think the youngest needs another year before I could even start to think about casting. Although, if there was someone out there who could handle all of the streaming and setup and AfreecaTV gave us clean VODs to cast from, then I would be more then happy to guest cast/co-host. But that requires a ton of work from someone else and most the of the reliable English casters are already doing a hundred things for the community.
This is also kind of a problem as well, there's a huge proportion of the community who are hugely resistant to change when it comes to commentary and commentators. I still see lists of people covering SC2 tournaments and it's the same old faces tournament after tournament. It's a case of differentiating what proportion of the audience will watch some form of English cast whoever does it, even if it's someone completely new, and what proportion are "if I can't hear Tasteless making crap jokes I'm not watching"
It is really heart opening to see so many supporters of the BW scene, willing to contribute for the Tastosis casting. I am more into SC2, however I also checked last seasons ASL with Flash going random and I loved the casting.
I would also be one of the willing people to contribute in the continouation of the Tastosis casting (if by Rules Twitch / Afreeca - possible)
We sadly do not know the full story behind it, but if its just the financials, we should be able to do it.
WE CANNOT LET ANYONE TAKE TASTOSIS PURPOSE AWAY ! They love casting ASL and SC Broodwar so much.
It's funny that the only reason twitch.tv exists is because of the starcraft esports scene, yet they feel more than comfortable putting our community members in binding contracts preventing them from keeping the game alive. Now they're more akin to a camgirl website than a platform for esports.
We shouldn't be surprised by this, there's a huge mass of people that gravitate towards particular streamers/personalities that just happen to play a video game.
It's surprising in a way in this context since these two guys also stream on twitch so you can watch them all the time with no restrictions. It's not like they're retiring from casting/streaming altogether.
As far as Broodwar casting goes, I really don't think Artosis and Tasteless elevated the experience of watching ASL too much from the point of just watching the pro-gamers duke it out. Maybe from an entertainment point of view but anything else? I wouldn't sign off on that.
On March 04 2021 22:48 BisuDagger wrote: Thanks. I'm up to two kiddos (3.5 yrs old and 8 month old) now. I've been trying to find time , but I think the youngest needs another year before I could even start to think about casting. Although, if there was someone out there who could handle all of the streaming and setup and AfreecaTV gave us clean VODs to cast from, then I would be more then happy to guest cast/co-host. But that requires a ton of work from someone else and most the of the reliable English casters are already doing a hundred things for the community.
This is also kind of a problem as well, there's a huge proportion of the community who are hugely resistant to change when it comes to commentary and commentators. I still see lists of people covering SC2 tournaments and it's the same old faces tournament after tournament. It's a case of differentiating what proportion of the audience will watch some form of English cast whoever does it, even if it's someone completely new, and what proportion are "if I can't hear Tasteless making crap jokes I'm not watching"
Tasteless is pretty funny man and the fact that you saw it fit to throw some trash at his humour for good measure, in a thread that's shows how much they are appreciated by so many, is pretty bad taste imo. Just had to get that a little of that sweet "elitist cred" at the end there, right?
Here is the thing: Everyone makes crappy jokes from time to time. That's part of being a fucking person. Good for you, that it's not your name and face on a screen, taking the risk of having your humour being reduced to "crappy jokes", by people who haven't earned any credentials in the field themselves.
I barely ever post here, mostly a lurker. But I have been following Tastosis since they began casting (and even before in x17) and this is just horrible news. They are the most charismatic and and magnetic personalities in the scene. I would pay a good sum of cash monthly just to support their continued employment with ASL. The people behind the scenes should really reconsider and institute a monthly subscription to pad their bottom line more aggressively.
At any rate, I will be continuing to follow and support Tastosis in whatever they both decide to do in the future. I just really hope this doesn't happen to GSL any time soon.
Nick and Dan: Thanks so much for all of the content over the years. You guys are the best.
People being so melodramatic in this thread. If you stop watching BW if tastosis are not casting it, you aren't BW fans. Tastosis fans are what you actually are.
On March 05 2021 04:08 Dangermousecatdog wrote: People being so melodramatic in this thread. If you stop watching BW if tastosis are not casting it, you aren't BW fans. Tastosis fans are what you actually are.
What if I stop watching because of not being able to understand the commentary and are forced on a platform that half of the time doesn't work and the other half lags every 5th second? Does that fit your gatekeeping of being a "proper" bw fan?
My favourite tournament just got cancelled for me and a lot others, as a viewer. Idk why you would think people shouldn't be a little bit melodramatic about just that. For us this is the end of having BW in our lives.
What do you mean by "gatekeeping"? An odd term. You are completely free to watch BW, it's not my fault if you refuse to watch any other English casters. I am not stopping you watching BW. It's your own decision.
Your favourite tournament didn't get cancelled. ASL 11 is still going to happen. I have full faith TL will feature those English casters who will continue broadcasting as before.
On March 05 2021 04:08 Dangermousecatdog wrote: People being so melodramatic in this thread. If you stop watching BW if tastosis are not casting it, you aren't BW fans. Tastosis fans are what you actually are.
What if I stop watching because of not being able to understand the commentary
Watch it muted if it bothers you? Throw on some background music? Try to analyze the game yourself, using the information you gained from your dedication to listening to Tastosis? Enjoy the game?
The technical issues are certainly a potential problem but they are also clearly not universal for everyone; I wonder why some people have so many problems with it, as it works just fine for me.
On March 05 2021 05:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: What do you mean by "gatekeeping"? An odd term. You are completely free to watch BW, it's not my fault if you refuse to watch any other English casters. I am not stopping you watching BW. It's your own decision.
Your favourite tournament didn't get cancelled. ASL 11 is still going to happen. I have full faith TL will feature those English casters who will continue broadcasting as before.
You did have an idea of how some people are proper BW fans and others are not (only Tastosis fans). Show me those other english casters of ASL.
ASL did get cancelled for me. I used to play games on 56kb/s and enjoy it. It doesnt mean that I would enjoy it today. Same way I don't enjoy nor bother with laggy 240p videos with a language I understand nothing of, with no subtitles.
Would you continue watching your favourite TV show if it suddenly were only in Norwegian, without subtitles, and were crazy laggy?
On March 05 2021 04:08 Dangermousecatdog wrote: People being so melodramatic in this thread. If you stop watching BW if tastosis are not casting it, you aren't BW fans. Tastosis fans are what you actually are.
What if I stop watching because of not being able to understand the commentary
Watch it muted if it bothers you? Throw on some background music? Try to analyze the game yourself, using the information you gained from your dedication to listening to Tastosis? Enjoy the game?
The technical issues are certainly a potential problem but they are also clearly not universal for everyone; I wonder why some people have so many problems with it, as it works just fine for me.
Then I would have no game sound. Commentary is a big part of why I love watching. Doesn't need to be tastosis. However commentary is important for my viewing pleasure. I don't watch streamers. I don't play the game anymore. I haven't done that for 14 years. I do however love watching BW tournaments with an idea of what is going on.
Interesting news. It makes sense to me why they would not support an English cast anymore. Their global website failed and using a competitors' platform to try to make some profit to cover costs ( someone mentioned its possible it was demonetized due to copyrights) isn't feasible in the long run. It was their fault imo for not doing more advertising and fixing up the flaws of the afreeca website, but I'm extremely grateful for Afreeca for giving us official english casts for 10 seasons straight. That's more than anyone could have hoped for.
It's also good that tastosis will be casting valorant with them as someone mentioned earlier so that they can still earn some income rather than being hung out to dry, though letting them know of the decision before the announcement would've been nice. From my perspective, while this is a loss for the BW foreign scene nonetheless, it's a bigger loss to tastosis' fans who followed the scene only due to the casting archon role in ASL. Those who care about following ASL and watching BW will find another english caster to follow or watch the KR casts.
So, imo, the sky is not falling guys. It's not the dark ages. It's an unfortunate decision for sure, but Afreeca has been supporting BW since Sonic gave the scene a big boost with SSL and has not stopped once at trying to keep things going even when they were forced to cancel ATB. They get big props from me and I'll continue to watch ASL as long as I can.
@jealous my guess is most having problems with the site are keeping the quality at source without realizing it or the connection just isn't there. I'm fairly certain that we'll get some english casters who will cast ASL now that tastosis are no longer doing it and some of the fanbase will want english casting for their favourite tournament.
It might make sense from a business point of view, they are losing more money than gaining on the current viewership which is fair.
Real problem is now the rest of the world has less reason to watch ASL. Fewer people will discover Broodwar and the game will go back to being only for hardcore fans and koreans more than it already is.
I can enjoy a korean cast game but I would incline to skip certain matches and skip in the videos. Eventually I will just lose interest, I will miss hearing the history and personalities of the players and the fun banter in between.
On March 05 2021 05:42 BigFan wrote: It's also good that tastosis will be casting valorant with them as someone mentioned earlier so that they can still earn some income rather than being hung out to dry, though letting them know of the decision before the announcement would've been nice.
They did let them know about the decision before announcing but Artosis wanted to know when they were announcing which they didn't give a heads up to. Artosis was worried about people mistaking this on stream right after the announcement.
On March 04 2021 19:06 AttackZerg wrote: If we can fight for a line in the sand that says, "This can be restreamed anywhere". Then I think the foreign scene can come away in good form, possibly better. It can potentially create a few live-casting careers.
I totally agree. I couldn't sleep at night and was thinking about it. We can (and SHOULD) look at this situation as a possible great oppurtunity to make (foreign) Starcraft bigger.
1. Persuade afreeca to let "us" (foreigners, most likely Artosis+Tasteless with the appropiate "others") cast ASL. in exchange for money of course. (not on afreeca!) 2. Set a crowdfunding goal with this amount of money, and reach it. 3. Start casting 4. Expand and gather sponsors, make the show bigger, get someone like redbull and we will reach more viewers than in Korea. (starcraft has the potential for that)
I know there are a lot of "ifs" here (and a lot of work to be done), but I truly believe this can be achieved.
(need to be very careful with the contract with afreeca because if the english restream will be big/bigger we can't let them take it away from us, of course if that happens we could create our own tournament probably at that time from sponsors+crowdfunding would be enough)
Unfortunately I can only help with my part of the crowdfunding. I'm very excited what our community can do with this situation!
Many ppl say they would pay to view this in English, but probably only a fraction would end up doing it. That fraction could still be enough though. I hope that someone who is in touch with Tastosis is already working on this, trying to figure out at least whether there is an option like this on the table. There is still time, and if able, they could come out with a proposal. Live would be a lot better, but even VODs would be ok.
Most of us here relate Korean Broodwar scene to Tastosis, hell Tasteless casting GOM inspired me to move to Korea for a few years back in 2011 (which was the best time of my life), so it is hard to let go. And we probably could have something again, though far from what it was before most likely.
As for the decision made by AfreecaTV, well, they are a business after all, and I am grateful for what they provided so far...
On March 05 2021 08:36 2BearqLoza wrote: Many ppl say they would pay to view this in English, but probably only a fraction would end up doing it. That fraction could still be enough though. I hope that someone who is in touch with Tastosis is already working on this, trying to figure out at least whether there is an option like this on the table. There is still time, and if able, they could come out with a proposal. Live would be a lot better, but even VODs would be ok.
Most of us here relate Korean Broodwar scene to Tastosis, hell Tasteless casting GOM inspired me to move to Korea for a few years back in 2011 (which was the best time of my life), so it is hard to let go. And we probably could have something again, though far from what it was before most likely.
As for the decision made by AfreecaTV, well, they are a business after all, and I am grateful for what they provided so far...
On his stream, Artosis said that they had been begging Afreeca to keep them on as casters, and that they had considered crowdfunding options, but the result is as you see...
On March 05 2021 08:36 2BearqLoza wrote: Many ppl say they would pay to view this in English, but probably only a fraction would end up doing it. That fraction could still be enough though. I hope that someone who is in touch with Tastosis is already working on this, trying to figure out at least whether there is an option like this on the table. There is still time, and if able, they could come out with a proposal. Live would be a lot better, but even VODs would be ok.
Most of us here relate Korean Broodwar scene to Tastosis, hell Tasteless casting GOM inspired me to move to Korea for a few years back in 2011 (which was the best time of my life), so it is hard to let go. And we probably could have something again, though far from what it was before most likely.
As for the decision made by AfreecaTV, well, they are a business after all, and I am grateful for what they provided so far...
On his stream, Artosis said that they had been begging Afreeca to keep them on as casters, and that they had considered crowdfunding options, but the result is as you see...
I didn't follow his stream in the past few days. That obviously removes and official cast, but perhaps there is still a way to have either casting over the games (even without a clean stream), or simply doing the VODs. The VODs are always available and free, and while far from optimal, it could work.
I hope they are going to come up with some sort of solution, anything really for this season.
On March 05 2021 06:54 Muirhead wrote: If there is the ability to crowdfund English casting (e.g., on the afreeca platform), I would certainly be willing to contribute quite a bit.
Er...
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote:
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
Afreeca are ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING English casting. They're just not providing it themselves, presumably because it doesn't make sense for them from a business point of view. Now I've not clicked the link, but feel free to correct me if the link appends "English casters are allowed and encouraged to broadcast ASL" with "for a considerable fee which you won't be able to recoup via balloons". If so, I apologise, but if not, why would we ever need to crowdfund? There's enough moaning here that it'll surely be a case of if you build it, they will come, someone just needs to get off their arse and do it. Restreaming is not difficult.
On March 05 2021 06:54 Muirhead wrote: If there is the ability to crowdfund English casting (e.g., on the afreeca platform), I would certainly be willing to contribute quite a bit.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
Afreeca are ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING English casting. They're just not providing it themselves, presumably because it doesn't make sense for them from a business point of view. Now I've not clicked the link, but feel free to correct me if the link appends "English casters are allowed and encouraged to broadcast ASL" with "for a considerable fee which you won't be able to recoup via balloons". If so, I apologise, but if not, why would we ever need to crowdfund? There's enough moaning here that it'll surely be a case of if you build it, they will come, someone just needs to get off their arse and do it. Restreaming is not difficult.
Well the overarching goal is to make bw accessible to foreigners. The fact they restrict restreams to Afreeca is the largest detriment to that goal.
oh god thats terrible news. Well Im certainly not gonna watch it in korean, I dont NEED tastosis as streamers tho, necessarily, as long as theres something thats not korean. If anything could be done, Id support it. lol@the clowns that call people casuals that watched broodwar for over 15 years. Thats definitely the dumbest thing Ive heard all day.
Mostly been following SC2 as a main game lately but I did watch regularly important tours like ASL and this news legit made me sad, like properly sad - such a piece of important gaming/eSports history came to the end. Sucks, sucks so much, this had to happen at one point and it happened now. :/
So what's next? Will we have "official" community casters? Are Tastosis willing to do community-style cast from home(s) if community decides to crowdfund it? Is that something we can hope for?
And btw guys boycotting Afreeca/ASL/etc is counterproductive, don't do that imho. Personally I'd watch ASL even with no casters whatsoever, it's my "time of a day" to chill with things I love - casters, production and stuff like that is just a nice bonus. It's about the game, hype, what it stands for and those priceless moments with snacks and drinks watching what you are passionate about!
of course there will be community casters. I am sure there are lots of people willing to cast on afreeca and provide an english cast. The main problem is that tastosis is a big draw for the game and accesibility will be so limited with it only being on afreecatv and not youtube or twitch. Only the most hardcore non korean viewers and fans of the game will tune in to afreeca.
We'll lose all those people who were watching ASL through youtube and are long term fans of the game but have stopped playing ages ago, but still watch through easy acces.
Don't have time to go through the thread right now, but will Tasteless and Artosis be commentating separately on another platform? I'm fine with not watching live, I haven't even played the game in about a decade, but these two commentators still keep my interest in Broodwar, especially with ASL.
On March 05 2021 16:37 Dante08 wrote: Anyone knows if the Korean pros have any thoughts on this?
They probably don't know/don't care. Only a few of them know about Tastosis anyway.
Imagine the official Spanish cast (lets pretend there's one) is cancelled for example, we wouldn't pay much attention because we've still got Tastosis.
Sad news. The biggest blow is the limiting of all restreams to Afreeca which i think will hinder the growth of foreign BW. I always have problems watching games there.
The scene have a lot of talented casters apart from tastosis to help cast future ASL's. And maybe this will give some of them a larger audience. For example the casters from StarcastTV.
On March 05 2021 16:37 Dante08 wrote: Anyone knows if the Korean pros have any thoughts on this?
They probably don't know/don't care. Only a few of them know about Tastosis anyway.
Imagine the official Spanish cast (lets pretend there's one) is cancelled for example, we wouldn't pay much attention because we've still got Tastosis.
There is a cast in Spanish since the ASL10 season.
The casters are Deathfate (Spain) and Jan (Peru), Both SC casters, with +10000 followers and +30000 respectively in YouTube channel
On March 05 2021 16:37 Dante08 wrote: Anyone knows if the Korean pros have any thoughts on this?
They probably don't know/don't care. Only a few of them know about Tastosis anyway.
Imagine the official Spanish cast (lets pretend there's one) is cancelled for example, we wouldn't pay much attention because we've still got Tastosis.
Are you sure only a few in the korean scene know of tastosis? I don't know about korean culture, but in my country, we sure care when we receive attention from a global audience, ecpecially if that attention is coming from the english speaking part of the world. I would expect them to feel pride that there is interest for their "national e-sport" coming from outside of the borders. No?
I have to say these are very sad news for the casters and the bw community in general.
For the people who kind of shrug their shoulders a bit, because they either prefer korean commentators or remember the days before tastosis when all we had was official korean commentators, please keep in mind that these news hurts all of the foreign BW community
The foreign scene is an ecosystem. Even if you personally don't watch the tastosis stream, it has to be understood that tastosis casting ASL on the youtube platform has been the single most important factor in bringing attention to this game. Sure, some of these newcomers or casuals only stay for the ASL cast and then leave when it's over, but a slow and steady number of them have gotten really hooked on watching competitive BW over these 10 seasons of tastosis casting it. When these people search for more content to watch, where do they go? Well, they just might end up learning about foreign run events like BSL, STPL, RCG etc.
People like ZZZero, Rus_Brain. Qikz and ThinkQuick are pivotal for the ecosystem of the foreign scene. People like them are the most important factors mantaining and keeping a lot of people interested. But Tastosis are the ones promoting this game to a larger audience and hence the most important factor in making sure people gets hooked in the first place. Even if you don't care much about tastosis, there is a good chance that your favourite foreign-run tournament is going to suffer for this.
People who says things like "if you Love BW, then you are going to keep watching and your interest is not restricted to just watching tastosis", is therefore both right and wrong. If you Love BW, you want the game to have a long life. And there wont be no future, with a competitive scene that is just going to shrink steadily year by year, with little to no new blood to replace the ones that retire. Because who is going to want to dedicate their time and passion towards a game that looks dead?
I'm not saying the game is dead from this point onwards, i'm just talking about in the long run. Which bring me to the next point:
For the people who really love tastosis and how they have made BW accessible to them, and now feel like BW is over: I would strongly reccomend checking out some of the foreign run events. BSL commentators Gypsy and Nyoken (both friends of tastosis btw), is doing a tremendous job hosting the most important online league for the foreign BW community. Like Tastosis, "Ny&Gy" are very respected members of the scene and their style of commentating is unique to their own. They are both very good players themselves and provides analytical and insightful commentary. With the english and latino streams combined, we are talking a good couple of thousands people tuning in to watch the best of the best outside of korea battling it out each weekend. The production of ZZZero (the guy running the show), is just awesome. You'll get to know all the different players and their history within the scene, which i know is an important part of becoming invested in the outcome of these kinds of competitions. Like ASL, BSL has been running for 10 season. The first group of the round of 16 is tomorrow and i'm as excited as a little ponybear can be. And if you like that, then there are other leagues and formats that can quench your thirst for more. There is no shortage on content in the foreigner scene!
Also, we have an annual offline league now, RCG (run by Rus_brain), with a huge prizepool and Artosis is set to cast it this year on location. He did so too in the 2019 edition and it was the best time imaginable.
You might think to yourself that watching foreigners is a huge downgrade compared to the top koreans. But i'd say that on the community side of things, i prefer the foreigner scene over the korean. People here are just as passionate and competitive as in Korea and the players are much more available and easier to get to know. Sure the skill is lower, but it doesn't mean that the top players aren't really really good and the games really fun and interesting.
And throw me in on any sort of crowdfunding in an effort to have tastosis casting the ASL, preferably not on Afreeca, but if that's a no-go, i'm in anyways. We can't have this fairy-tale end on a sour note like this. If it's only for just one more season we have to make it happen guys! Can we put our money where our mouths at? We have watched 10 seasons of ASL for free. FOR FREE. The foreign community met the funding goals and raised 4k and 10k for the BSL and RCG recently. If we join forces with all of the tastosis followers, i'm 100% sure we can do it. We just need to work together <3
When I was a teenager, I'd stay up until 3AM and watch Korean games and smile about it. Today? Nope. ASL will be just fine without me and a bunch of other people as viewers without Tastosis, just as we'll be fine without it.
On March 05 2021 16:37 Dante08 wrote: Anyone knows if the Korean pros have any thoughts on this?
They probably don't know/don't care. Only a few of them know about Tastosis anyway.
Imagine the official Spanish cast (lets pretend there's one) is cancelled for example, we wouldn't pay much attention because we've still got Tastosis.
Are you sure only a few in the korean scene know of tastosis? I don't know about korean culture, but in my country, we sure care when we receive attention from a global audience, ecpecially if that attention is coming from the english speaking part of the world. I would expect them to feel pride that there is interest for their "national e-sport" coming from outside of the borders. No?
I can't be entirely sure. But I probably heard about that somewhere in TL. That and the fact when Artosis is playing the Korean ladder in his nickname, nobody seems to recognize him.
Will we ever get good news in this scene? It has been a year of terrible news for both games, things just keep getting worse. Hard times to be an Starcraft fan.
On March 05 2021 16:37 Dante08 wrote: Anyone knows if the Korean pros have any thoughts on this?
They probably don't know/don't care. Only a few of them know about Tastosis anyway.
Imagine the official Spanish cast (lets pretend there's one) is cancelled for example, we wouldn't pay much attention because we've still got Tastosis.
Are you sure only a few in the korean scene know of tastosis? I don't know about korean culture, but in my country, we sure care when we receive attention from a global audience, ecpecially if that attention is coming from the english speaking part of the world. I would expect them to feel pride that there is interest for their "national e-sport" coming from outside of the borders. No?
I can't be entirely sure. But I probably heard about that somewhere in TL. That and the fact when Artosis is playing the Korean ladder in his nickname, nobody seems to recognize him.
I mean, would you be aware of,say, chinese commentator for league if you were a fan? Most people do not even know of eng stream since korea has their own setup+ pro player restreams
On March 05 2021 21:06 Morbidius wrote: Will we ever get good news in this scene? It has been a year of terrible news for both games, things just keep getting worse. Hard times to be an Starcraft fan.
On March 05 2021 04:08 Dangermousecatdog wrote: People being so melodramatic in this thread. If you stop watching BW if tastosis are not casting it, you aren't BW fans. Tastosis fans are what you actually are.
What if I stop watching because of not being able to understand the commentary
Watch it muted if it bothers you? Throw on some background music? Try to analyze the game yourself, using the information you gained from your dedication to listening to Tastosis? Enjoy the game?
The technical issues are certainly a potential problem but they are also clearly not universal for everyone; I wonder why some people have so many problems with it, as it works just fine for me.
Tbh, I had issues with afreeca for the longest time, too. The stream would buffer into eternity, even on low settings, and the vods often wouldn't even load at all. 1-2 years ago they changed something and it is mostly ok for me now. I don't doubt though that enough people still have trouble with the site...
I enjoyed using my Switch to watch the games and listen to two funny guys on YT. I used to be diehard about the Korean casts, but I fully converted to Tastosis. I haven't played since SCR, the analysis doesn't come as naturally and I don't care as much to learn from the game. I usually can't watch much more than one or two KCM games before I get bored now. I would maybe give ASL Korean only a try on YT, but Afreeca is not so convenient. If the plan is to get people to convert from YT to Afreeca, I kinda need Tastosis waiting there for me. Afreeca just isnt very foreigner friendly though, almost no non korean content.
I would say this is hard times, but Afreeca is probably doing well like most online businesses. So I guess it's just that they can't make any money with tastosis. Maybe GSL pulls more views to justify them, I just dunno. Would have liked to hear why.
I have trouble understanding the people that worry about Artosis' and Tasteless' future. They're household names that are well connected in the e-sports scene so them getting more work should never be a problem.
Let alone their twitch streams which I imagine can bring in revenue through sponsored streams as well.
Resorting to casting LoL/Valorant is also a juicy option since I imagine there's a lot of money being thrown around in those games.
Tasteless mentioned on his stream that there is a chance that they will set up a patreon in order for them to commentate ASL. I think his idea was to commentate from VODs, since he was talking about getting the rights from Afreeca.
Damn that's too bad -.-a As someone who's been watching since i was like 12 or 13 and recently got back into playing again when I can this kinda sucks. I don't mind watching korean commentators since that's where I (And I'm sure most of us) started when we first found out about a pro scene and stuff. Sad news really, but if they do get the rights and wanna commentate through VODs and have a patreon I'd be down to support for sure.
BW has had its ups and downs and always managed to push through and as an outsider looking in and lurking forever this has to be the most tight knit and close community for a game I've ever seen and proud to have fallen in love with this game forever ago <3
On March 05 2021 23:00 tanngard wrote: Tasteless mentioned on his stream that there is a chance that they will set up a patreon in order for them to commentate ASL. I think his idea was to commentate from VODs, since he was talking about getting the rights from Afreeca.
As someone who did not realize what we had until we lost it, I would like to express my interest in the Patreon business model.
Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
On March 06 2021 02:43 staatbauhaus wrote: Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
Not enough money going around? How do you think these BW pros still stay alive making way more than the avg person? I'd say that is definitely not the problem.
On March 06 2021 02:43 staatbauhaus wrote: Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
Not enough money going around? How do you think these BW pros still stay alive making way more than the avg person? I'd say that is definitely not the problem.
Ehhh, I wouldn't be so sure about this. Sure, Flash, Bisu and some of the other pros probably make enough through fan donations and sponsored games but overall that number is too low to call the scene viable for the 30th best BW player in the world for example which is the actual metric that decides if something can be pursued as a full time profession or not.
I don't know much about LoL but as a caster you must be licking your lips at the prospect of getting a gig in that space.
The E-Sports model of success remains milking whatever 1-2 games are the most popular in your 5-8 year time window and then just moving on to whatever else comes up in popularity.
SCII and CS are probably the only examples where they've stayed viable for a very long time.
A sad day. I’m out of touch with BW, and these days I need an English caster to help explain things to me. Tastosis were the best. I’ll also miss the convenience of youtube.
On March 06 2021 02:43 staatbauhaus wrote: Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
Not enough money going around? How do you think these BW pros still stay alive making way more than the avg person? I'd say that is definitely not the problem.
Ehhh, I wouldn't be so sure about this. Sure, Flash, Bisu and some of the other pros probably make enough through fan donations and sponsored games but overall that number is too low to call the scene viable for the 30th best BW player in the world for example which is the actual metric that decides if something can be pursued as a full time profession or not.
I don't know much about LoL but as a caster you must be licking your lips at the prospect of getting a gig in that space.
The E-Sports model of success remains milking whatever 1-2 games are the most popular in your 5-8 year time window and then just moving on to whatever else comes up in popularity.
SCII and CS are probably the only examples where they've stayed viable for a very long time.
In my opinion that just says the people behind the leagues are not professional enough. I'd say a good system could definitely be made. If they want to make it or not, well that's not in my hands. But just blaming it on lack of support or $$$ seems bs to me.
Even the foreign scene (which is infinitely smaller) can do it. Not for full time pros, but they can schedule a tournament which should never be possible which the absolute shit the foreign scene is (and yes, that includes me, I'm not that interested in foreign BW). I feel just looking at the dollars is really the worst thing you can do, because I feel that's not at all where the problem lies.
But yea, obviously with other games you could get more of them dollars.
On March 06 2021 02:43 staatbauhaus wrote: Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
Not enough money going around? How do you think these BW pros still stay alive making way more than the avg person? I'd say that is definitely not the problem.
There were pros that were literally making 2000 won/hr before they quit streaming. So yes money does really matter.
On March 06 2021 02:43 staatbauhaus wrote: Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
Not enough money going around? How do you think these BW pros still stay alive making way more than the avg person? I'd say that is definitely not the problem.
There were pros that were literally making 2000 won/hr before they quit streaming. So yes money does really matter.
Of course money matters, but I feel that's just a result of the scene being unorganized. It's easy to say the money isn't there, but I wonder if that is really the case. I think the money could be (/have been) there if they would've organized everything a bit better.
On March 06 2021 02:43 staatbauhaus wrote: Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
Not enough money going around? How do you think these BW pros still stay alive making way more than the avg person? I'd say that is definitely not the problem.
There were pros that were literally making 2000 won/hr before they quit streaming. So yes money does really matter.
It's easy to say the money isn't there, but I wonder if that is really the case. I think the money could be (/have been) there if they would've organized everything a bit better.
On March 06 2021 02:43 staatbauhaus wrote: Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
Not enough money going around? How do you think these BW pros still stay alive making way more than the avg person? I'd say that is definitely not the problem.
There were pros that were literally making 2000 won/hr before they quit streaming. So yes money does really matter.
It's easy to say the money isn't there, but I wonder if that is really the case. I think the money could be (/have been) there if they would've organized everything a bit better.
Ohh...k.
Thanks for this very useful quote, it's obvious there is a lot of money in the scene (and the views for the Korean leagues seem to be pretty decent), so how come they can't make a proper league that makes money from that? Without an ohhhhh. k. response?
If you don't want to respond to that, what point is there in responding to it at all?
On March 06 2021 02:43 staatbauhaus wrote: Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
Not enough money going around? How do you think these BW pros still stay alive making way more than the avg person? I'd say that is definitely not the problem.
There were pros that were literally making 2000 won/hr before they quit streaming. So yes money does really matter.
It's easy to say the money isn't there, but I wonder if that is really the case. I think the money could be (/have been) there if they would've organized everything a bit better.
Ohh...k.
Thanks for this very useful quote, it's obvious there is a lot of money in the scene (and the views for the Korean leagues seem to be pretty decent), so how come they can't make a proper league that makes money from that? Without an ohhhhh. k. response?
If you don't want to respond to that, what point is there in responding to it at all?
What money in the scene are you talking about?
Money in e-sports comes from sponsors and publishers that invest into an e-sport scene for their games.
BW has none of that. It has Afreeca that maintains a series of small tournaments and their online streaming service which most korean BW fans prefer to use to watch pro-gamers play the game.
That's it. There are no unclaimed money-bags to be found. Unless you're living in an alternate dimension.
Views don't mean anything if they're not backed by healthy ad-revenue.
On March 06 2021 02:43 staatbauhaus wrote: Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
Not enough money going around? How do you think these BW pros still stay alive making way more than the avg person? I'd say that is definitely not the problem.
There were pros that were literally making 2000 won/hr before they quit streaming. So yes money does really matter.
It's easy to say the money isn't there, but I wonder if that is really the case. I think the money could be (/have been) there if they would've organized everything a bit better.
Ohh...k.
Thanks for this very useful quote, it's obvious there is a lot of money in the scene (and the views for the Korean leagues seem to be pretty decent), so how come they can't make a proper league that makes money from that? Without an ohhhhh. k. response?
If you don't want to respond to that, what point is there in responding to it at all?
What money in the scene are you talking about?
Money in e-sports comes from sponsors and publishers that invest into an e-sport scene for their games.
BW has none of that. It has Afreeca that maintains a series of small tournaments and their online streaming service which most korean BW fans prefer to use to watch pro-gamers play the game.
That's it. There are no unclaimed money-bags to be found. Unless you're living in an alternate dimension.
Views don't mean anything if they're not backed by healthy ad-revenue.
The money in the scene i'm talking about is that there's still an x number of pros that make a great salary and they are just depending on the game (financially). You think that is just coming from a small amount of people? Or maybe there's still quite a few people interested in the scene.
But yea, how do you explain any e-sport making money? I think in most cases it's not the publisher putting that much money in? In many cases sponsors and some sort of crowd-sourcing (battle passes)?
Either way, I feel the games we're talking about are the absolute top of the bill, paying millions, that is absolutely not needed to keep this scene alive. It would be great, but the pay the guys get in the most popular games are also somewhat outta control and it's absolutely not needed to maintain a healthy scene.
I think the BW scene is very viable and to me the the numbers look pretty good. If smaller tournaments can find sponsors, why can't ASL find any (for their foreign broadcasts)? Of course, there's not millions to be found there, but I feel it could be a scene that sustains itself (and might grow in popularity if promoted a bit, who knows).
On March 05 2021 05:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: [spoiler]What do you mean by "gatekeeping"? An odd term. You are completely free to watch BW, it's not my fault if you refuse to watch any other English casters. I am not stopping you watching BW. It's your own decision.
Your favourite tournament didn't get cancelled. ASL 11 is still going to happen. I have full faith TL will feature those English casters who will continue broadcasting as before.
You did have an idea of how some people are proper BW fans and others are not (only Tastosis fans). Show me those other english casters of ASL.
ASL did get cancelled for me. I used to play games on 56kb/s and enjoy it. It doesnt mean that I would enjoy it today. Same way I don't enjoy nor bother with laggy 240p videos with a language I understand nothing of, with no subtitles.
Would you continue watching your favourite TV show if it suddenly were only in Norwegian, without subtitles, and were crazy laggy?
ASL isn't getting cancelled. You making the conscious decision to not watch ASL is just your refusal to watch it. When you shut your eyes, the world still turns does it not? ASL is carrying on, only without your favourite casters. If you can't be bothered to watch other English casters that's on you, not me. For like the past few ASLs, TL has been featuring alternate English casters. Nyoken and Flashftw were casting if I recall as well as a few other English speaking players. No idea how you missed them. You can check them out yourself on the TL sidebar when ASL 11 starts, same with all the other ASLs.
l've been able to watch 720p ASL live, no problems. Just last week I watched the ASTL at 1080p from VOD without problem. I've watched concurrent restreams of ASL on Afreeca from other casters. Geographically Norway is practically next to UK, so I don't know why you have problems. If my favourite TV show tournament was originally 240p Korean with no subtitles, and now I got 720p which is 9 times the pixels, yeah I am damn happy that ASL is keeping BW alive 22 years later.
On March 06 2021 02:43 staatbauhaus wrote: Sad news but unfortunately bw is nowhere near as popular as LoL in Korea aka less $$$$
A few pros transitioned into streaming LoL fulltime and a bunch quit streaming all together to go work jobs because they couldn't sustain themselves. There's just not enough money going around to support all the pros let alone foreign castors.
Not enough money going around? How do you think these BW pros still stay alive making way more than the avg person? I'd say that is definitely not the problem.
There were pros that were literally making 2000 won/hr before they quit streaming. So yes money does really matter.
It's easy to say the money isn't there, but I wonder if that is really the case. I think the money could be (/have been) there if they would've organized everything a bit better.
Ohh...k.
Thanks for this very useful quote, it's obvious there is a lot of money in the scene (and the views for the Korean leagues seem to be pretty decent), so how come they can't make a proper league that makes money from that? Without an ohhhhh. k. response?
If you don't want to respond to that, what point is there in responding to it at all?
What money in the scene are you talking about?
Money in e-sports comes from sponsors and publishers that invest into an e-sport scene for their games.
BW has none of that. It has Afreeca that maintains a series of small tournaments and their online streaming service which most korean BW fans prefer to use to watch pro-gamers play the game.
That's it. There are no unclaimed money-bags to be found. Unless you're living in an alternate dimension.
Views don't mean anything if they're not backed by healthy ad-revenue.
The money in the scene i'm talking about is that there's still an x number of pros that make a great salary and they are just depending on the game (financially). You think that is just coming from a small amount of people? Or maybe there's still quite a few people interested in the scene.
.
What is this pot of gold you keep talking about. The top bw earners are not receiving a salary, they receive gifts from fans. And guess what, majority of their gifts come from the same 10 fans on a month to month basis. A fan may gift massive amounts to their favorite streamer and not a single penny to other bw streamers. They are not obligated to evenly distribute donations.
What is this pot of gold you keep talking about. The top bw earners are not receiving a salary, they receive gifts from fans. And guess what, majority of their gifts come from the same 10 fans on a month to month basis. A fan may gift massive amounts to their favorite streamer and not a single penny to other bw streamers. They are not obligated to evenly distribute donations.
hmmm that sounds like a pot of gold to me, albeit a top heavy one.
What is this pot of gold you keep talking about. The top bw earners are not receiving a salary, they receive gifts from fans. And guess what, majority of their gifts come from the same 10 fans on a month to month basis. A fan may gift massive amounts to their favorite streamer and not a single penny to other bw streamers. They are not obligated to evenly distribute donations.
hmmm that sounds like a pot of gold to me, albeit a top heavy one.
yea it sucks that it's so top heavy. Now we have players like calm, sea, terror, britney 815, midas, ruby, horang2, haksu playing full time League of Legends.
It has become obvious to me that the community needs to own the game.
Like basketball, no one owns basketball, anyone can play, anyone can setup an event, ect... events can be put on with the advertising fees going to pay the casters and players.
Businesses are looking to make a quick profit and move to the next big thing. Doesn't matter if it is MLG, GomTV, ASL, Blizzard, Activision whatever. There are people who would make Commander content for Starcraft II for free. Or they could be subsidized with small fees for their content.
I know some people think this game is dead. Good games never die, though at some point, every good game becomes like Chess, where companies can't make as much money with them than they could with the next big thing. No single entity owns Chess... we all do, and people still get paid to play it and Chess boards sell.
The community needs to own Starcraft, or build it's own game.
Not sure why that passive aggressive comment was necessary. It was implied in my writing that if the community can't get the game in the public domain like Chess, the community needs to build one that is.
Only way that could happen is the company drastically changes or enough times goes by that no one gives a shit anymore about the SC franchise. Both of which are unlikely.
On March 07 2021 01:49 BronzeKnee wrote: It has become obvious to me that the community needs to own the game.
Like basketball, no one owns basketball, anyone can play, anyone can setup an event, ect... events can be put on with the advertising fees going to pay the casters and players.
Businesses are looking to make a quick profit and move to the next big thing. Doesn't matter if it is MLG, GomTV, ASL, Blizzard, Activision whatever. There are people who would make Commander content for Starcraft II for free. Or they could be subsidized with small fees for their content.
I know some people think this game is dead. Good games never die, though at some point, every good game becomes like Chess, where companies can't make as much money with them than they could with the next big thing. No single entity owns Chess... we all do, and people still get paid to play it and Chess boards sell.
The community needs to own Starcraft, or build it's own game.
What the fuck does this have to do with Afreeca not having an English Broadcast?
"The Community needs to own Starcraft". Yeah, that one Hivemind of a communtiy
You seem pretty upset with me or negative in general with that tone, I'm just a random guy on the internet, don't let me get to you. Someday you'll be happy again.
To directly answer: there is a desire for an English broadcast of professional Broodwar games. Companies that put profits over the game make satiating that desire difficult.
If the game was in the public domain, like basketball/Chess, we could have organizations run tournaments indefinitely, without fear of any profit driven company shutting the whole thing down.
That is not true sadly... you can't just fire one up without Blizzard's consent and without giving them their cut. If the game was in the public domain you could. Like Chess and basketball...
Facts matter man. Do your homework. I'm just repeating myself because you haven't read/understood my initial post in regards to comparing Stacraft to Chess and basketball.
I'm not here to convince you, just here to tell you I was convinced. I don't really care if your not convinced, and even though it seems to be apparent since your engaging in this discussion that you care about me being convinced, your arguments aren't swaying me because you haven't done your homework.
Anyone can get a license, but the restrictions inherent in the licenses themselves, if you read the license, make it extremely difficult to monetize it and create an organization without giving Blizzard a big chunk.
Read the licenses. Here is just a snippet:
On Site Audiences.
You may not charge fees of any kind for spectators to watch the competition in-person.
On March 07 2021 03:27 BronzeKnee wrote: Anyone can get a license, but the restrictions inherent in the licenses themselves, if you read the license, make it extremely difficult to monetize it and create an organization without giving Blizzard a big chunk.
Read the licenses. Here is just a snippet:
On Site Audiences.
You may not charge fees of any kind for spectators to watch the competition in-person.
Hit the books man.
A big chunk? How much? How much is Dreamhack/ESL paying for every tournament? How is it even possible that they dont write big red numbers on Starcraft and Warcraft? Or how is it possible that Take organizes all those Homestory Cups? Wardi/Basetrade and who not keep on throwing tournaments. Have you guys heard them say:"But we have to pay Blizzard too much, we cant create the tournaments...."
On March 07 2021 04:31 Marl wrote: blizzard/activision.. twitch/amazon.. absolutely no morality other than profit-making.
What did they do?
Still not sure where this comes from. When was the last they FORCED PAYWALLED you guys? I guess when they charged money for Remastered, greedy bastards!
You're being childish.
It is wildly known that Blizzard actively tried to kill the SC1 scene in Korea in favor of SC2 before Remastered came out.
The first move they did to support Remastered when it came out was to charge Afreeca a ridiculous sum of money (some say close to the actual costs to even hold the tournament) for a tournament license.
1. You need a license only if your tournament goes over a certain $ value for Brood War, at least. I applied for a license and got it for free by clicking a few buttons. However, Blizzard didn't even bother to respond to me concerning anything else, despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade. They just don't give a fuck.
2. Blizzard forces organizations like ASL to pay Blizzard money to run their Brood War tournaments.
3. On the flip side, Blizzard had been propping up SC2 for years with their own money, so it's not even relevant in this discussion. (maybe tangentially if that money is being sourced from BW tho lol, see #5).
4. The reason why some progamers are hesitant to play in tournaments is because they make more money streaming, and when they are preparing for a tournament and trying to hide builds/their practice, they are making less money. If they don't have a chance to win the tournament, there is little incentive to participate. It only makes sense to participate if you think your performance will result in greater viewership/donations in the future than what you lose. It's still about money. Even the players care more about money. And that is honestly the most responsible approach to this.
5. None of this matters because it's ASL that has pulled the plug, not Blizzard, though in theory it could be related (assuming ASL is still paying exorbitant amounts of money to Blizzard to run BW tournaments).
6. Tasteless/Artosis aren't willing to work for free, why should ASL be willing to provide English broadcasts at a loss? If they were making money from it, you better believe that they would still be doing them. But they aren't. This whole "businesses are only interested in profits" argument seems so moronic to me, because it's like, yea? No duh? I'm surprised Blizzard propped up SC2 for as long as it did, for example. Not surprised at all that ASL and their investors/sponsors who run ads on them are not to keen on the additional costs involved with marketing to an audience they can't benefit from.
Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
Let's not be childish and think if we dream, pray, whine, beg, etc. hard enough that anything will change. Thinking that ASL will bring back English broadcasts out of some sense of community/charity with a group of people they barely give a fuck about is stupid. Come to think of it, I can't think of anything the foreign audience actually does FOR Afreeca. What have you done for Afreeca besides watch the VODs on YouTube, their competitor? Similarly, don't hold your breath for Blizzard to let go of the BW IP. We'll all be dead and gone long before that. Y'all just sound like a bunch of whiny children who don't understand how the world works. I get it, you're upset. Throw your tantrum and get over it.
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: 1. You need a license only if your tournament goes over a certain $ value for Brood War, at least. I applied for a license and got it for free by clicking a few buttons. However, Blizzard didn't even bother to respond to me concerning anything else, despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade. They just don't give a fuck.
2. Blizzard forces organizations like ASL to pay Blizzard money to run their Brood War tournaments.
3. On the flip side, Blizzard had been propping up SC2 for years with their own money, so it's not even relevant in this discussion. (maybe tangentially if that money is being sourced from BW tho lol, see #5).
4. The reason why some progamers are hesitant to play in tournaments is because they make more money streaming, and when they are preparing for a tournament and trying to hide builds/their practice, they are making less money. If they don't have a chance to win the tournament, there is little incentive to participate. It only makes sense to participate if you think your performance will result in greater viewership/donations in the future than what you lose. It's still about money. Even the players care more about money. And that is honestly the most responsible approach to this.
5. None of this matters because it's ASL that has pulled the plug, not Blizzard, though in theory it could be related (assuming ASL is still paying exorbitant amounts of money to Blizzard to run BW tournaments).
6. Tasteless/Artosis aren't willing to work for free, why should ASL be willing to provide English broadcasts at a loss? If they were making money from it, you better believe that they would still be doing them. But they aren't. This whole "businesses are only interested in profits" argument seems so moronic to me, because it's like, yea? No duh? I'm surprised Blizzard propped up SC2 for as long as it did, for example. Not surprised at all that ASL and their investors/sponsors who run ads on them are not to keen on the additional costs involved with marketing to an audience they can't benefit from.
Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
Let's not be childish and think if we dream, pray, whine, beg, etc. hard enough that anything will change. Thinking that ASL will bring back English broadcasts out of some sense of community/charity with a group of people they barely give a fuck about is stupid. Come to think of it, I can't think of anything the foreign audience actually does FOR Afreeca. What have you done for Afreeca besides watch the VODs on YouTube, their competitor? Similarly, don't hold your breath for Blizzard to let go of the BW IP. We'll all be dead and gone long before that. Y'all just sound like a bunch of whiny children who don't understand how the world works. I get it, you're upset. Throw your tantrum and get over it.
Negativity and "education" that nobody needed.
Don't underestimate the power of passion. I hope we all backup words with our wallets when the crowdfunding starts.
"Regarding ASL, Tasteless mentioned today on his stream that he and Dan are working on buying the exclusive English broadcasting rights to ASL and producing their own broadcast funded via Patreon."
found on bw reddit 1d ago, can anyone verify? I am hopeful.
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: 1. You need a license only if your tournament goes over a certain $ value for Brood War, at least. I applied for a license and got it for free by clicking a few buttons. However, Blizzard didn't even bother to respond to me concerning anything else, despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade. They just don't give a fuck.
2. Blizzard forces organizations like ASL to pay Blizzard money to run their Brood War tournaments.
3. On the flip side, Blizzard had been propping up SC2 for years with their own money, so it's not even relevant in this discussion. (maybe tangentially if that money is being sourced from BW tho lol, see #5).
4. The reason why some progamers are hesitant to play in tournaments is because they make more money streaming, and when they are preparing for a tournament and trying to hide builds/their practice, they are making less money. If they don't have a chance to win the tournament, there is little incentive to participate. It only makes sense to participate if you think your performance will result in greater viewership/donations in the future than what you lose. It's still about money. Even the players care more about money. And that is honestly the most responsible approach to this.
5. None of this matters because it's ASL that has pulled the plug, not Blizzard, though in theory it could be related (assuming ASL is still paying exorbitant amounts of money to Blizzard to run BW tournaments).
6. Tasteless/Artosis aren't willing to work for free, why should ASL be willing to provide English broadcasts at a loss? If they were making money from it, you better believe that they would still be doing them. But they aren't. This whole "businesses are only interested in profits" argument seems so moronic to me, because it's like, yea? No duh? I'm surprised Blizzard propped up SC2 for as long as it did, for example. Not surprised at all that ASL and their investors/sponsors who run ads on them are not to keen on the additional costs involved with marketing to an audience they can't benefit from.
Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
Let's not be childish and think if we dream, pray, whine, beg, etc. hard enough that anything will change. Thinking that ASL will bring back English broadcasts out of some sense of community/charity with a group of people they barely give a fuck about is stupid. Come to think of it, I can't think of anything the foreign audience actually does FOR Afreeca. What have you done for Afreeca besides watch the VODs on YouTube, their competitor? Similarly, don't hold your breath for Blizzard to let go of the BW IP. We'll all be dead and gone long before that. Y'all just sound like a bunch of whiny children who don't understand how the world works. I get it, you're upset. Throw your tantrum and get over it.
Negativity and "education" that nobody needed.
Don't underestimate the power of passion. I hope we all backup words with our wallets when the crowdfunding starts.
"Regarding ASL, Tasteless mentioned today on his stream that he and Dan are working on buying the exclusive English broadcasting rights to ASL and producing their own broadcast funded via Patreon."
found on bw reddit 1d ago, can anyone verify? I am hopeful.
Him: "..despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade." You: "Negativity and "education" that nobody needed. Don't underestimate the power of passion" Me: (eyeroll)
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: 1. You need a license only if your tournament goes over a certain $ value for Brood War, at least. I applied for a license and got it for free by clicking a few buttons. However, Blizzard didn't even bother to respond to me concerning anything else, despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade. They just don't give a fuck.
2. Blizzard forces organizations like ASL to pay Blizzard money to run their Brood War tournaments.
3. On the flip side, Blizzard had been propping up SC2 for years with their own money, so it's not even relevant in this discussion. (maybe tangentially if that money is being sourced from BW tho lol, see #5).
4. The reason why some progamers are hesitant to play in tournaments is because they make more money streaming, and when they are preparing for a tournament and trying to hide builds/their practice, they are making less money. If they don't have a chance to win the tournament, there is little incentive to participate. It only makes sense to participate if you think your performance will result in greater viewership/donations in the future than what you lose. It's still about money. Even the players care more about money. And that is honestly the most responsible approach to this.
5. None of this matters because it's ASL that has pulled the plug, not Blizzard, though in theory it could be related (assuming ASL is still paying exorbitant amounts of money to Blizzard to run BW tournaments).
6. Tasteless/Artosis aren't willing to work for free, why should ASL be willing to provide English broadcasts at a loss? If they were making money from it, you better believe that they would still be doing them. But they aren't. This whole "businesses are only interested in profits" argument seems so moronic to me, because it's like, yea? No duh? I'm surprised Blizzard propped up SC2 for as long as it did, for example. Not surprised at all that ASL and their investors/sponsors who run ads on them are not to keen on the additional costs involved with marketing to an audience they can't benefit from.
Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
Let's not be childish and think if we dream, pray, whine, beg, etc. hard enough that anything will change. Thinking that ASL will bring back English broadcasts out of some sense of community/charity with a group of people they barely give a fuck about is stupid. Come to think of it, I can't think of anything the foreign audience actually does FOR Afreeca. What have you done for Afreeca besides watch the VODs on YouTube, their competitor? Similarly, don't hold your breath for Blizzard to let go of the BW IP. We'll all be dead and gone long before that. Y'all just sound like a bunch of whiny children who don't understand how the world works. I get it, you're upset. Throw your tantrum and get over it.
Negativity and "education" that nobody needed.
Don't underestimate the power of passion. I hope we all backup words with our wallets when the crowdfunding starts.
"Regarding ASL, Tasteless mentioned today on his stream that he and Dan are working on buying the exclusive English broadcasting rights to ASL and producing their own broadcast funded via Patreon."
found on bw reddit 1d ago, can anyone verify? I am hopeful.
Him: "..despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade." You: "Negativity and "education" that nobody needed. Don't underestimate the power of passion" Me: (eyeroll)
Roll your eyes all you want.
Organising two events is great, appreciate him for it.
Negativity and lame education are still negative and lame though, does not matter whose mouth it comes out of. Does not help right now.
The speak with wallet is said to the rest of us, wanting ASL Tastosis cast, apologies for the confusion.
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: 1. You need a license only if your tournament goes over a certain $ value for Brood War, at least. I applied for a license and got it for free by clicking a few buttons. However, Blizzard didn't even bother to respond to me concerning anything else, despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade. They just don't give a fuck.
2. Blizzard forces organizations like ASL to pay Blizzard money to run their Brood War tournaments.
3. On the flip side, Blizzard had been propping up SC2 for years with their own money, so it's not even relevant in this discussion. (maybe tangentially if that money is being sourced from BW tho lol, see #5).
4. The reason why some progamers are hesitant to play in tournaments is because they make more money streaming, and when they are preparing for a tournament and trying to hide builds/their practice, they are making less money. If they don't have a chance to win the tournament, there is little incentive to participate. It only makes sense to participate if you think your performance will result in greater viewership/donations in the future than what you lose. It's still about money. Even the players care more about money. And that is honestly the most responsible approach to this.
5. None of this matters because it's ASL that has pulled the plug, not Blizzard, though in theory it could be related (assuming ASL is still paying exorbitant amounts of money to Blizzard to run BW tournaments).
6. Tasteless/Artosis aren't willing to work for free, why should ASL be willing to provide English broadcasts at a loss? If they were making money from it, you better believe that they would still be doing them. But they aren't. This whole "businesses are only interested in profits" argument seems so moronic to me, because it's like, yea? No duh? I'm surprised Blizzard propped up SC2 for as long as it did, for example. Not surprised at all that ASL and their investors/sponsors who run ads on them are not to keen on the additional costs involved with marketing to an audience they can't benefit from.
Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
Let's not be childish and think if we dream, pray, whine, beg, etc. hard enough that anything will change. Thinking that ASL will bring back English broadcasts out of some sense of community/charity with a group of people they barely give a fuck about is stupid. Come to think of it, I can't think of anything the foreign audience actually does FOR Afreeca. What have you done for Afreeca besides watch the VODs on YouTube, their competitor? Similarly, don't hold your breath for Blizzard to let go of the BW IP. We'll all be dead and gone long before that. Y'all just sound like a bunch of whiny children who don't understand how the world works. I get it, you're upset. Throw your tantrum and get over it.
Negativity and "education" that nobody needed.
Don't underestimate the power of passion. I hope we all backup words with our wallets when the crowdfunding starts.
"Regarding ASL, Tasteless mentioned today on his stream that he and Dan are working on buying the exclusive English broadcasting rights to ASL and producing their own broadcast funded via Patreon."
found on bw reddit 1d ago, can anyone verify? I am hopeful.
Him: "..despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade." You: "Negativity and "education" that nobody needed. Don't underestimate the power of passion" Me: (eyeroll)
Roll your eyes all you want.
Organising two events is great, appreciate him for it.
Negativity and lame education are still negative and lame though, does not matter whose mouth it comes out of. Does not help right now.
The speak with wallet is said to the rest of us, wanting ASL Tastosis cast, apologies for the confusion.
Was mostly addressing the idealistic approach some posters took on the previous page, as well as some of the misinformation presented therein. I didn't write all of that just for my own amusement. In a way, we are in total agreement - it is money that is important here, not any sense of propriety or community or misguided expectation for ASL or Blizzard to "do the right thing" or some other vague moralistic concept like that.
You keep parroting the same clarion calls in this thread, but I have yet to see you offer anything but lip service.
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: 1. You need a license only if your tournament goes over a certain $ value for Brood War, at least. I applied for a license and got it for free by clicking a few buttons. However, Blizzard didn't even bother to respond to me concerning anything else, despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade. They just don't give a fuck.
2. Blizzard forces organizations like ASL to pay Blizzard money to run their Brood War tournaments.
3. On the flip side, Blizzard had been propping up SC2 for years with their own money, so it's not even relevant in this discussion. (maybe tangentially if that money is being sourced from BW tho lol, see #5).
4. The reason why some progamers are hesitant to play in tournaments is because they make more money streaming, and when they are preparing for a tournament and trying to hide builds/their practice, they are making less money. If they don't have a chance to win the tournament, there is little incentive to participate. It only makes sense to participate if you think your performance will result in greater viewership/donations in the future than what you lose. It's still about money. Even the players care more about money. And that is honestly the most responsible approach to this.
5. None of this matters because it's ASL that has pulled the plug, not Blizzard, though in theory it could be related (assuming ASL is still paying exorbitant amounts of money to Blizzard to run BW tournaments).
6. Tasteless/Artosis aren't willing to work for free, why should ASL be willing to provide English broadcasts at a loss? If they were making money from it, you better believe that they would still be doing them. But they aren't. This whole "businesses are only interested in profits" argument seems so moronic to me, because it's like, yea? No duh? I'm surprised Blizzard propped up SC2 for as long as it did, for example. Not surprised at all that ASL and their investors/sponsors who run ads on them are not to keen on the additional costs involved with marketing to an audience they can't benefit from.
Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
Let's not be childish and think if we dream, pray, whine, beg, etc. hard enough that anything will change. Thinking that ASL will bring back English broadcasts out of some sense of community/charity with a group of people they barely give a fuck about is stupid. Come to think of it, I can't think of anything the foreign audience actually does FOR Afreeca. What have you done for Afreeca besides watch the VODs on YouTube, their competitor? Similarly, don't hold your breath for Blizzard to let go of the BW IP. We'll all be dead and gone long before that. Y'all just sound like a bunch of whiny children who don't understand how the world works. I get it, you're upset. Throw your tantrum and get over it.
Negativity and "education" that nobody needed.
Don't underestimate the power of passion. I hope we all backup words with our wallets when the crowdfunding starts.
"Regarding ASL, Tasteless mentioned today on his stream that he and Dan are working on buying the exclusive English broadcasting rights to ASL and producing their own broadcast funded via Patreon."
found on bw reddit 1d ago, can anyone verify? I am hopeful.
Him: "..despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade." You: "Negativity and "education" that nobody needed. Don't underestimate the power of passion" Me: (eyeroll)
Roll your eyes all you want.
Organising two events is great, appreciate him for it.
Negativity and lame education are still negative and lame though, does not matter whose mouth it comes out of. Does not help right now.
The speak with wallet is said to the rest of us, wanting ASL Tastosis cast, apologies for the confusion.
Was mostly addressing the idealistic approach some posters took on the previous page, as well as some of the misinformation presented therein.
You keep parroting the same clarion calls in this thread, but I have yet to see you offer anything but lip service.
I will CC you in the email when I donate my share
I am calling on you and some others to stop the negativity and allow people to have a common dream so they see hope.
Why don't you join me on calling people to join the effort instead? Soon, if and when the crowdfunding launches?
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: 1. You need a license only if your tournament goes over a certain $ value for Brood War, at least. I applied for a license and got it for free by clicking a few buttons. However, Blizzard didn't even bother to respond to me concerning anything else, despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade. They just don't give a fuck.
2. Blizzard forces organizations like ASL to pay Blizzard money to run their Brood War tournaments.
3. On the flip side, Blizzard had been propping up SC2 for years with their own money, so it's not even relevant in this discussion. (maybe tangentially if that money is being sourced from BW tho lol, see #5).
4. The reason why some progamers are hesitant to play in tournaments is because they make more money streaming, and when they are preparing for a tournament and trying to hide builds/their practice, they are making less money. If they don't have a chance to win the tournament, there is little incentive to participate. It only makes sense to participate if you think your performance will result in greater viewership/donations in the future than what you lose. It's still about money. Even the players care more about money. And that is honestly the most responsible approach to this.
5. None of this matters because it's ASL that has pulled the plug, not Blizzard, though in theory it could be related (assuming ASL is still paying exorbitant amounts of money to Blizzard to run BW tournaments).
6. Tasteless/Artosis aren't willing to work for free, why should ASL be willing to provide English broadcasts at a loss? If they were making money from it, you better believe that they would still be doing them. But they aren't. This whole "businesses are only interested in profits" argument seems so moronic to me, because it's like, yea? No duh? I'm surprised Blizzard propped up SC2 for as long as it did, for example. Not surprised at all that ASL and their investors/sponsors who run ads on them are not to keen on the additional costs involved with marketing to an audience they can't benefit from.
Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
Let's not be childish and think if we dream, pray, whine, beg, etc. hard enough that anything will change. Thinking that ASL will bring back English broadcasts out of some sense of community/charity with a group of people they barely give a fuck about is stupid. Come to think of it, I can't think of anything the foreign audience actually does FOR Afreeca. What have you done for Afreeca besides watch the VODs on YouTube, their competitor? Similarly, don't hold your breath for Blizzard to let go of the BW IP. We'll all be dead and gone long before that. Y'all just sound like a bunch of whiny children who don't understand how the world works. I get it, you're upset. Throw your tantrum and get over it.
Negativity and "education" that nobody needed.
Don't underestimate the power of passion. I hope we all backup words with our wallets when the crowdfunding starts.
"Regarding ASL, Tasteless mentioned today on his stream that he and Dan are working on buying the exclusive English broadcasting rights to ASL and producing their own broadcast funded via Patreon."
found on bw reddit 1d ago, can anyone verify? I am hopeful.
Him: "..despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade." You: "Negativity and "education" that nobody needed. Don't underestimate the power of passion" Me: (eyeroll)
Roll your eyes all you want.
Organising two events is great, appreciate him for it.
Negativity and lame education are still negative and lame though, does not matter whose mouth it comes out of. Does not help right now.
The speak with wallet is said to the rest of us, wanting ASL Tastosis cast, apologies for the confusion.
Was mostly addressing the idealistic approach some posters took on the previous page, as well as some of the misinformation presented therein.
You keep parroting the same clarion calls in this thread, but I have yet to see you offer anything but lip service.
I will CC you in the email when I donate my share
I am calling on you and some others to stop the negativity and allow people to have a common dream so they see hope.
Why don't you join me on calling people to join the effort instead? Soon, if and when the crowdfunding launches?
What effort? So far all anyone is doing is just talk talk talk, twiddling their thumbs, waiting for someone to do something. Where is the Patreon? Where is the open letter to Afreeca? Where is the petition? All of the time you've spent hasn't produced anything of the sort. What are you waiting for?
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: 1. You need a license only if your tournament goes over a certain $ value for Brood War, at least. I applied for a license and got it for free by clicking a few buttons. However, Blizzard didn't even bother to respond to me concerning anything else, despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade. They just don't give a fuck.
2. Blizzard forces organizations like ASL to pay Blizzard money to run their Brood War tournaments.
3. On the flip side, Blizzard had been propping up SC2 for years with their own money, so it's not even relevant in this discussion. (maybe tangentially if that money is being sourced from BW tho lol, see #5).
4. The reason why some progamers are hesitant to play in tournaments is because they make more money streaming, and when they are preparing for a tournament and trying to hide builds/their practice, they are making less money. If they don't have a chance to win the tournament, there is little incentive to participate. It only makes sense to participate if you think your performance will result in greater viewership/donations in the future than what you lose. It's still about money. Even the players care more about money. And that is honestly the most responsible approach to this.
5. None of this matters because it's ASL that has pulled the plug, not Blizzard, though in theory it could be related (assuming ASL is still paying exorbitant amounts of money to Blizzard to run BW tournaments).
6. Tasteless/Artosis aren't willing to work for free, why should ASL be willing to provide English broadcasts at a loss? If they were making money from it, you better believe that they would still be doing them. But they aren't. This whole "businesses are only interested in profits" argument seems so moronic to me, because it's like, yea? No duh? I'm surprised Blizzard propped up SC2 for as long as it did, for example. Not surprised at all that ASL and their investors/sponsors who run ads on them are not to keen on the additional costs involved with marketing to an audience they can't benefit from.
Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
Let's not be childish and think if we dream, pray, whine, beg, etc. hard enough that anything will change. Thinking that ASL will bring back English broadcasts out of some sense of community/charity with a group of people they barely give a fuck about is stupid. Come to think of it, I can't think of anything the foreign audience actually does FOR Afreeca. What have you done for Afreeca besides watch the VODs on YouTube, their competitor? Similarly, don't hold your breath for Blizzard to let go of the BW IP. We'll all be dead and gone long before that. Y'all just sound like a bunch of whiny children who don't understand how the world works. I get it, you're upset. Throw your tantrum and get over it.
Negativity and "education" that nobody needed.
Don't underestimate the power of passion. I hope we all backup words with our wallets when the crowdfunding starts.
"Regarding ASL, Tasteless mentioned today on his stream that he and Dan are working on buying the exclusive English broadcasting rights to ASL and producing their own broadcast funded via Patreon."
found on bw reddit 1d ago, can anyone verify? I am hopeful.
Him: "..despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade." You: "Negativity and "education" that nobody needed. Don't underestimate the power of passion" Me: (eyeroll)
Roll your eyes all you want.
Organising two events is great, appreciate him for it.
Negativity and lame education are still negative and lame though, does not matter whose mouth it comes out of. Does not help right now.
The speak with wallet is said to the rest of us, wanting ASL Tastosis cast, apologies for the confusion.
Was mostly addressing the idealistic approach some posters took on the previous page, as well as some of the misinformation presented therein.
You keep parroting the same clarion calls in this thread, but I have yet to see you offer anything but lip service.
I will CC you in the email when I donate my share
I am calling on you and some others to stop the negativity and allow people to have a common dream so they see hope.
Why don't you join me on calling people to join the effort instead? Soon, if and when the crowdfunding launches?
What effort? So far all anyone is doing is just talk talk talk, twiddling their thumbs, waiting for someone to do something. Where is the Patreon? Where is the open letter to Afreeca? Where is the petition? All of the time you've spent hasn't produced anything of the sort. What are you waiting for?
1. Tastosis are organinsing a deal with ASL for broadcast rights according to Reddit, need confirmation on this but Tastless apparently announced it on his stream that discussions are in progress.
2. All this "talk talk talk" are by fans, creating a buzz, making this relevant. The bigger the buzz is, the more people is drawn to it and the more likely Tastosis or, BW community leaders such as yourself(organiser of 2 events i heard) can harness our collective effort/money hopefully to offer a solution.
3. Try to encourage newcomers, mere fans like myself to contribute, the "do you even know how business runs" is best kept elsewhere.
4. Lets do what's helpful. If Tastosis plans are true and go well, that is our planA, what is planB? It can be an open letter by you to AfreecaTV like you suggested or by another organiser, I will support and sign it. Lets play each of our roles, and this is my open letter to you, from a supporter to an organiser.
Most of us want ASL English to be back, a lot of us want it to be back with Tastosis, and are willing to pay.
I conclude my response to you, hope you do the same in your next comment. Lets not derail the discussion.
Jealous working overtime to clarify to people they don't need to listen to an English cast to enjoy ASL. A lot of people have said otherwise. It's fine you enjoy the Korean cast, you're probably in the minority.
On March 05 2021 04:08 Dangermousecatdog wrote: People being so melodramatic in this thread. If you stop watching BW if tastosis are not casting it, you aren't BW fans. Tastosis fans are what you actually are.
What if I stop watching because of not being able to understand the commentary
Watch it muted if it bothers you? Throw on some background music? Try to analyze the game yourself, using the information you gained from your dedication to listening to Tastosis? Enjoy the game?
The technical issues are certainly a potential problem but they are also clearly not universal for everyone; I wonder why some people have so many problems with it, as it works just fine for me.
Yea, let's watch the game muted. Good fucking idea.
We can just take it and restream it and overwhelm them. In some jurisdictions, they will face delays for content removal and in some jurisdictions they have no claims at all.
Restreaming from the Korean source and then adding English will be more sustainable, so that they can't just target one of our streamers and boom down it does.
Tasteless and Artosis will not be able to buy the rights to broadcast on another platform. Never going to happen. Afreeca doesn't own the rights to broadcast some things inside of korea, let alone outside.
All of the reasonable options will fail. Afreeca is 'going legit'. They have been stealing content for years and years and now they are large enough that they risk of continuing that way is no longer worth it.
Since Afreeca spent ten years stealing music, visuals, bribing creators and creating life and career limiting contracts - it is fitting that at a certain point it just makes more sense to steal their shit then talk to them. That is where we are.
I’m largely unfamiliar with Afreeca’s practices, shady or otherwise.
I do know I enjoyed using their platform, technical jankiness aside for the pleasure of watching probably the greatest competitive gamers ever to have lived grind out games, so that was nice. Plus they had first person streams for GSL and ST for a while, something I’ve wanted for absolutely forever since an MLG experimented with it. Dual FPV + commentary is the finest way to watch the game when it’s possible.
Plus how’s the state of SC looking over there without Afreeca money? Don’t see the need to say fuck them and go overboard, although this is regrettable.
Hopefully Tastosis can find a way around it, it’s looking as if they’re trying anyway.
Failing that we’ll get someone else who’ll do a good job, much as I love Tastosis it does sound like a Mexican standoff in terms of Afreeca exclusivity vs Twitch exclusivity and that may be tricky to negotiate.
On March 08 2021 10:08 WombaT wrote: Plus they had first person streams for GSL and ST for a while, something I’ve wanted for absolutely forever since an MLG experimented with it.
Just want to let it be known that this was a feature in MBC/OGN during the KeSPA era too I do love me some dual + split screen FPV.
As much as this sucks, its hard to imagine the Afreeca not losing money on having an English broadcast for ASL. Lets face it, we are a very loyal but very small fanbase that will likely never buy anything in Korea. That's a tough pill to swallow for a Korean broadcaster that's making money off of ads and sponsorships.
I hope ASL reconsiders this and tries out a subscription based option, I would have no problem paying a reasonable price to justify the costs of ASL having an English broadcast. This seemed to work fine for the OGN LCK broadcasts back in the day with Doa and Monte, where they realized it was a small but very dedicated audience so they made a broadcast tailored to people who were into LoL enough and willing to pay 5 bucks a month (and it was the best LoL broadcasting ever imo).
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: 1. You need a license only if your tournament goes over a certain $ value for Brood War, at least. I applied for a license and got it for free by clicking a few buttons. However, Blizzard didn't even bother to respond to me concerning anything else, despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade. They just don't give a fuck.
2. Blizzard forces organizations like ASL to pay Blizzard money to run their Brood War tournaments.
3. On the flip side, Blizzard had been propping up SC2 for years with their own money, so it's not even relevant in this discussion. (maybe tangentially if that money is being sourced from BW tho lol, see #5).
4. The reason why some progamers are hesitant to play in tournaments is because they make more money streaming, and when they are preparing for a tournament and trying to hide builds/their practice, they are making less money. If they don't have a chance to win the tournament, there is little incentive to participate. It only makes sense to participate if you think your performance will result in greater viewership/donations in the future than what you lose. It's still about money. Even the players care more about money. And that is honestly the most responsible approach to this.
5. None of this matters because it's ASL that has pulled the plug, not Blizzard, though in theory it could be related (assuming ASL is still paying exorbitant amounts of money to Blizzard to run BW tournaments).
6. Tasteless/Artosis aren't willing to work for free, why should ASL be willing to provide English broadcasts at a loss? If they were making money from it, you better believe that they would still be doing them. But they aren't. This whole "businesses are only interested in profits" argument seems so moronic to me, because it's like, yea? No duh? I'm surprised Blizzard propped up SC2 for as long as it did, for example. Not surprised at all that ASL and their investors/sponsors who run ads on them are not to keen on the additional costs involved with marketing to an audience they can't benefit from.
Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
Let's not be childish and think if we dream, pray, whine, beg, etc. hard enough that anything will change. Thinking that ASL will bring back English broadcasts out of some sense of community/charity with a group of people they barely give a fuck about is stupid. Come to think of it, I can't think of anything the foreign audience actually does FOR Afreeca. What have you done for Afreeca besides watch the VODs on YouTube, their competitor? Similarly, don't hold your breath for Blizzard to let go of the BW IP. We'll all be dead and gone long before that. Y'all just sound like a bunch of whiny children who don't understand how the world works. I get it, you're upset. Throw your tantrum and get over it.
Negativity and "education" that nobody needed.
Don't underestimate the power of passion. I hope we all backup words with our wallets when the crowdfunding starts.
"Regarding ASL, Tasteless mentioned today on his stream that he and Dan are working on buying the exclusive English broadcasting rights to ASL and producing their own broadcast funded via Patreon."
found on bw reddit 1d ago, can anyone verify? I am hopeful.
Him: "..despite my having organized/helped organize two of the biggest USA BW LANs for BW in over a decade." You: "Negativity and "education" that nobody needed. Don't underestimate the power of passion" Me: (eyeroll)
Roll your eyes all you want.
Organising two events is great, appreciate him for it.
Negativity and lame education are still negative and lame though, does not matter whose mouth it comes out of. Does not help right now.
The speak with wallet is said to the rest of us, wanting ASL Tastosis cast, apologies for the confusion.
Was mostly addressing the idealistic approach some posters took on the previous page, as well as some of the misinformation presented therein.
You keep parroting the same clarion calls in this thread, but I have yet to see you offer anything but lip service.
I will CC you in the email when I donate my share
I am calling on you and some others to stop the negativity and allow people to have a common dream so they see hope.
Why don't you join me on calling people to join the effort instead? Soon, if and when the crowdfunding launches?
What effort? So far all anyone is doing is just talk talk talk, twiddling their thumbs, waiting for someone to do something. Where is the Patreon? Where is the open letter to Afreeca? Where is the petition? All of the time you've spent hasn't produced anything of the sort. What are you waiting for?
1. Tastosis are organinsing a deal with ASL for broadcast rights according to Reddit, need confirmation on this but Tastless apparently announced it on his stream that discussions are in progress.
2. All this "talk talk talk" are by fans, creating a buzz, making this relevant. The bigger the buzz is, the more people is drawn to it and the more likely Tastosis or, BW community leaders such as yourself(organiser of 2 events i heard) can harness our collective effort/money hopefully to offer a solution.
3. Try to encourage newcomers, mere fans like myself to contribute, the "do you even know how business runs" is best kept elsewhere.
4. Lets do what's helpful. If Tastosis plans are true and go well, that is our planA, what is planB? It can be an open letter by you to AfreecaTV like you suggested or by another organiser, I will support and sign it. Lets play each of our roles, and this is my open letter to you, from a supporter to an organiser.
Most of us want ASL English to be back, a lot of us want it to be back with Tastosis, and are willing to pay.
I conclude my response to you, hope you do the same in your next comment. Lets not derail the discussion.
I can confirm that Tastosis are trying very hard to negotiate with Afreeca. No details yet, but Tastosis fans should remain hopeful. There's a chance something could happen. The more people that show interest in supporting them, the better
Quote from Artosis's stream's bot
Tasteless and I are in talks with AfreecaTV about doing an official broadcast / VODs for ASL via crowdfunding (Patreon probably). Please let us know if you are interested in this!
On March 08 2021 10:08 WombaT wrote: Plus they had first person streams for GSL and ST for a while, something I’ve wanted for absolutely forever since an MLG experimented with it.
Just want to let it be known that this was a feature in MBC/OGN during the KeSPA era too I do love me some dual + split screen FPV.
You’re jealous by name and now I’m jealous by nature. Salty enough I missed most of BW’s glory years!
I'm at least proud to say I always fully supported Tastosis' casting and always tuned in to their stream instead of the korean or other english casters' whenever I watch ASL, whether live or replay.
This is a great way for us to prove to Koreans that there is interest in Starcraft 1 outside of Korea. I really hope the talks go well and I'll definetly support as much as I can via patreon!
I think capitulating to Afreeca is a mistake, getting on our backs and begging for scraps like this. We should be crowdfunding a tournament to compete with ASL, not groveling for acceptance.
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
That's fun. From a different perspective though, you should think about if there's a possibility that your baskets are everywhere in the neighbourhood and nobody needs them anymore. Obviously that doesn't translate to a digital service such as afreeca, which can generate more content from a wide array of potential games, but you chose that analogy in a digital world. Not to mention, no half talented salesman would entirely ignore the population of die-hard angolians, in the sense he wouldn't check out potential forms of solutions. Might be you can still generate some earnings if you find cheaper ways to ship or allow them the manufacturing of their own baskets after buying a license or something. After all, you want your business to grow, regardless if there are other basket manufacturers on the market or not. If you never change anything, chances are high sales will stagnate, drop and you will die before you can cash out.
Point is, I never understood the "Blizz just acts like cooperation" or only slightly different "Korean just does $$$". It's not impossible to find alternatives or show good will, even if it's only to brand yourself as fun coperation or some new age hippie bullshit. The numbers Tastosis show are not so small I'd throw away any chances without second and third though, 'cause the costs are comparably small in marketing terms.
I might be wrong tho and Tastosis both drive around in their Porsches and live the good life.
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
That's fun. From a different perspective though, you should think about if there's a possibility that your baskets are everywhere in the neighbourhood and nobody needs them anymore. Obviously that doesn't translate to a digital service such as afreeca, which can generate more content from a wide array of potential games, but you chose that analogy in a digital world. Not to mention, no half talented salesman would entirely ignore the population of die-hard angolians, in the sense he wouldn't check out potential forms of solutions. Might be you can still generate some earnings if you find cheaper ways to ship or allow them the manufacturing of their own baskets after buying a license or something. After all, you want your business to grow, regardless if there are other basket manufacturers on the market or not. If you never change anything, chances are high sales will stagnate, drop and you will die before you can cash out.
Point is, I never understood the "Blizz just acts like cooperation" or only slightly different "Korean just does $$$". It's not impossible to find alternatives or show good will, even if it's only to brand yourself as fun coperation or some new age hippie bullshit. The numbers Tastosis show are not so small I'd throw away any chances without second and third though, 'cause the costs are comparably small in marketing terms.
I might be wrong tho and Tastosis both drive around in their Porsches and live the good life.
Good point, the analogy isn't perfect. Allow me to make a better one:
Your landlord lets you keep a roof over your head on the condition that you maintain the property you are renting, and when you ask he for it he gives you a gas powered lawn mower and gas money to do so because you generate very little income of your own and in fact you have a bunch of expenses you can barely cover. Because you're a good dude you also mow the lawn of the little old grandma that lives about 10 miles away because some 20 years ago she sent you some good apple pie but hasn't really done anything for you or the landlord since then. However, the economic downturn has forced your landlord to take out a second mortgage on his home and now money is tight. You go to ask him for the lawnmower and gas money, but he knows that you are spending a lot of it on mowing that old lady's lawn. So, he gives you just enough to mow your own lawn, which you have to do otherwise you get evicted during a recession and become broke and homeless, and that would lead you to lose your job and income to boot. Do you still mow the old lady's lawn? No.
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
That's fun. From a different perspective though, you should think about if there's a possibility that your baskets are everywhere in the neighbourhood and nobody needs them anymore. Obviously that doesn't translate to a digital service such as afreeca, which can generate more content from a wide array of potential games, but you chose that analogy in a digital world. Not to mention, no half talented salesman would entirely ignore the population of die-hard angolians, in the sense he wouldn't check out potential forms of solutions. Might be you can still generate some earnings if you find cheaper ways to ship or allow them the manufacturing of their own baskets after buying a license or something. After all, you want your business to grow, regardless if there are other basket manufacturers on the market or not. If you never change anything, chances are high sales will stagnate, drop and you will die before you can cash out.
Point is, I never understood the "Blizz just acts like cooperation" or only slightly different "Korean just does $$$". It's not impossible to find alternatives or show good will, even if it's only to brand yourself as fun coperation or some new age hippie bullshit. The numbers Tastosis show are not so small I'd throw away any chances without second and third though, 'cause the costs are comparably small in marketing terms.
While I don't disagree with the idea that there is enough of a foreign base that would potentially be willing to pay for tastosis and that Afreeca should explore the option, the outrage that some posters exhibit towards Afreeca's goodwill of close to 5 years (remember that Afreeca also paid BD/xkcd to cast before tastosis stole their thunder lol) due to their decision is something, and this is the primary motivating factor as to why Jealous has been coming up with all these analogies. I think it's understandable to be upset, but keeping it in check and trying to understand why they made the decision and how to move forward from here is the best option here.
On March 09 2021 01:44 9-BiT wrote: I think capitulating to Afreeca is a mistake, getting on our backs and begging for scraps like this. We should be crowdfunding a tournament to compete with ASL, not groveling for acceptance.
Tooooootally dude.
Could you please start the crowdfunding with the first 20,000 dollars?
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
That's fun. From a different perspective though, you should think about if there's a possibility that your baskets are everywhere in the neighbourhood and nobody needs them anymore. Obviously that doesn't translate to a digital service such as afreeca, which can generate more content from a wide array of potential games, but you chose that analogy in a digital world. Not to mention, no half talented salesman would entirely ignore the population of die-hard angolians, in the sense he wouldn't check out potential forms of solutions. Might be you can still generate some earnings if you find cheaper ways to ship or allow them the manufacturing of their own baskets after buying a license or something. After all, you want your business to grow, regardless if there are other basket manufacturers on the market or not. If you never change anything, chances are high sales will stagnate, drop and you will die before you can cash out.
Point is, I never understood the "Blizz just acts like cooperation" or only slightly different "Korean just does $$$". It's not impossible to find alternatives or show good will, even if it's only to brand yourself as fun coperation or some new age hippie bullshit. The numbers Tastosis show are not so small I'd throw away any chances without second and third though, 'cause the costs are comparably small in marketing terms.
I might be wrong tho and Tastosis both drive around in their Porsches and live the good life.
Good point, the analogy isn't perfect. Allow me to make a better one:
Your landlord lets you keep a roof over your head on the condition that you maintain the property you are renting, and when you ask he for it he gives you a gas powered lawn mower and gas money to do so because you generate very little income of your own and in fact you have a bunch of expenses you can barely cover. Because you're a good dude you also mow the lawn of the little old grandma that lives about 10 miles away because some 20 years ago she sent you some good apple pie but hasn't really done anything for you or the landlord since then. However, the economic downturn has forced your landlord to take out a second mortgage on his home and now money is tight. You go to ask him for the lawnmower and gas money, but he knows that you are spending a lot of it on mowing that old lady's lawn. So, he gives you just enough to mow your own lawn, which you have to do otherwise you get evicted during a recession and become broke and homeless, and that would lead you to lose your job and income to boot. Do you still mow the old lady's lawn? No.
I dont think these analogies really work with an internet streaming company like Afreeca. Some of the big factors about live-streaming media is how very different it is from other mediums, and thus very costly. Afreeca also does a very different way for streaming than most companies in the west and their methods don't work well with our internet usage/work. Also, i've routinely heard they dont really know that there are western audiences. either because they don't run stats/queries for that data probably because they dont expect we exist, or we exist in such a very small number it's trivial compared to their other numbers.
Also, remember Tasteless stated it wasn't about pay. We're not on the inside of what happened or why it happened, and normally tasteless/artosis don't just fold over so I can't imagine it happened here.
Truth is, we don't know what happened and maybe won't know. Struggling to find reasons is understandable but the way-out-there theories only work to suffice our own frustrations. Industry contracts not getting renewed can be very nuanced and complicated, or sometimes so blazingly simple and out of left field that unless they directly tell us what happened the best we can do for now is just work on alternatives.
tldr; the why isn't so much important now, imho, as trying to figure out alternatives
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
That's fun. From a different perspective though, you should think about if there's a possibility that your baskets are everywhere in the neighbourhood and nobody needs them anymore. Obviously that doesn't translate to a digital service such as afreeca, which can generate more content from a wide array of potential games, but you chose that analogy in a digital world. Not to mention, no half talented salesman would entirely ignore the population of die-hard angolians, in the sense he wouldn't check out potential forms of solutions. Might be you can still generate some earnings if you find cheaper ways to ship or allow them the manufacturing of their own baskets after buying a license or something. After all, you want your business to grow, regardless if there are other basket manufacturers on the market or not. If you never change anything, chances are high sales will stagnate, drop and you will die before you can cash out.
Point is, I never understood the "Blizz just acts like cooperation" or only slightly different "Korean just does $$$". It's not impossible to find alternatives or show good will, even if it's only to brand yourself as fun coperation or some new age hippie bullshit. The numbers Tastosis show are not so small I'd throw away any chances without second and third though, 'cause the costs are comparably small in marketing terms.
I might be wrong tho and Tastosis both drive around in their Porsches and live the good life.
Good point, the analogy isn't perfect. Allow me to make a better one:
Your landlord lets you keep a roof over your head on the condition that you maintain the property you are renting, and when you ask he for it he gives you a gas powered lawn mower and gas money to do so because you generate very little income of your own and in fact you have a bunch of expenses you can barely cover. Because you're a good dude you also mow the lawn of the little old grandma that lives about 10 miles away because some 20 years ago she sent you some good apple pie but hasn't really done anything for you or the landlord since then. However, the economic downturn has forced your landlord to take out a second mortgage on his home and now money is tight. You go to ask him for the lawnmower and gas money, but he knows that you are spending a lot of it on mowing that old lady's lawn. So, he gives you just enough to mow your own lawn, which you have to do otherwise you get evicted during a recession and become broke and homeless, and that would lead you to lose your job and income to boot. Do you still mow the old lady's lawn? No.
I dont think these analogies really work with an internet streaming company like Afreeca. Some of the big factors about live-streaming media is how very different it is from other mediums, and thus very costly. Afreeca also does a very different way for streaming than most companies in the west and their methods don't work well with our internet usage/work. Also, i've routinely heard they dont really know that there are western audiences. either because they don't run stats/queries for that data probably because they dont expect we exist, or we exist in such a very small number it's trivial compared to their other numbers.
Also, remember Tasteless stated it wasn't about pay. We're not on the inside of what happened or why it happened, and normally tasteless/artosis don't just fold over so I can't imagine it happened here.
Truth is, we don't know what happened and maybe won't know. Struggling to find reasons is understandable but the way-out-there theories only work to suffice our own frustrations. Industry contracts not getting renewed can be very nuanced and complicated, or sometimes so blazingly simple and out of left field that unless they directly tell us what happened the best we can do for now is just work on alternatives.
tldr; the why isn't so much important now, imho, as trying to figure out alternatives
I both agree and disagree. I agree that moving forward and thinking of solutions, putting effort in that direction, is more important than discussing the "why" of it all. However, not giving any credit to Afreeca as an organization and acting like they did this out of malice, making inconsequential threats to stop watching Afreeca events, and being whiny brats saying "fuck off Afreeca" on an internet forum is at least partially due to the fact that people don't understand that there is more than likely to be a perfectly reasonable "why" behind the decision. Exploring at least one of those "why"s can put it into perspective for some of the more rational and mature posters here, and will thus potentially help people get out of the waaaah phase and into the productive phase.
Artosis also said it wasn't about money, and I believe he said on stream that they had actually previously agreed to a pay cut to keep it going. However, I haven't heard any talk of them doing it for free either - so again, I don't see how it is reasonable for people to expect Afreeca to do it at a loss. To be fair, the whole Twitch partnership thing does throw a wrench in the works too.
so, they're talking to Afreeca to let us support the casting via Patreon? I mean... I'm ok with that. I'm willing to pay. But I thought the problem was the conflict between Afreeca and competitors (Twitch / Youtube), not the wage.
I think they should make the situation public and explicit, and then eventually ask for money.
On March 09 2021 06:55 oxKnu wrote: Afreeca's business model is League of Legends and semi-naked girls acting dumb on cam fulfilling the anime fantasies of middle aged men.
There really is not much depth to it.
That's why we need to ditch Afreeca and get some tournaments going on Twitch, am I right fellow true Brood War fans?
On March 03 2021 12:08 Apus wrote: Have not posted in an extremely long time but have been watching GSL and ASL for years. Please reconsider this decision.
Yes please. I preferred ASL even to GSL
It's like if the mom in The Good Son dropped Elijah Wood instead of Macaulay Culkin. No but seriously, ASL hurts the most.
I'd love to know what prompted this decision. I hope it's not more of this "people outside of Korea don't like Brood War", because that's a load of shit.
[QUOTE]On March 05 2021 16:58 TMNT wrote: [QUOTE]On March 05 2021 16:37 Dante08 wrote:
Imagine the official Spanish cast (lets pretend there's one) is cancelled for example, we wouldn't pay much attention because we've still got Tastosis. [/QUOTE]
We watch it in English, Spanish cast is good but why settle with good when we can have the best. Also, today, almost everyone understands English to the necessary level to watch an English cast. English cast is viewed by every non Korean viewer...
Please help me here. I just can't get how this doesn't make sense financially. How much does Tastosis get paid? I mean... Technically, the setup is already there for a Korean cast. So it's just their salary, which Youtube views would pay alone. On the other side, they don't need to promote their crappy website in the foreign world; it is impenetrable for non Koreans, let alone watchable, due to lag, constant buffering, etc. So I can't understand that having 2 guys talking over a game and posting those videos on YouTube can make them lose money.
Oh, and by the way, I am one of those who has seen every single KSL and ASL game whilst casted by Tastosis. And not a single ASTL game due to no English cast...
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
Thank you, AfreecaTV
I sent them my feelings. Feel free to do to the same, it doesn't require registration. Maybe if they'll see how many ppl are disappointed they might reconsider what they did. At least we can try.
On March 09 2021 17:59 Zekkezgz wrote: Please help me here. I just can't get how this doesn't make sense financially. How much does Tastosis get paid? I mean... Technically, the setup is already there for a Korean cast. So it's just their salary, which Youtube views would pay alone. On the other side, they don't need to promote their crappy website in the foreign world; it is impenetrable for non Koreans, let alone watchable, due to lag, constant buffering, etc. So I can't understand that having 2 guys talking over a game and posting those videos on YouTube can make them lose money.
All ASL broadcasts on Youtube make 0 dollars.
Youtube demonetizes/takes down every video that plays copyrighted music.
Also, all ads are sold for AfreecaTV, Youtube is just used as a re-streaming platform.
On March 03 2021 12:07 GTR wrote: even with the limited amount of time i have these days i would always try my best to watch asl or speed through the vods. guess that means i won't be watching any brood war anymore.
I used to watch ASL mostly in the background while doing something else, listening to Tastosis talk about what is happening and tabbing in to watch the action but I can't do that with the Korean cast. Don't understand Korean and miss the action because my mind simply tunes out the gibberish in my ear even if they get excited.
On March 09 2021 17:59 Zekkezgz wrote: Please help me here. I just can't get how this doesn't make sense financially. How much does Tastosis get paid? I mean... Technically, the setup is already there for a Korean cast. So it's just their salary, which Youtube views would pay alone. On the other side, they don't need to promote their crappy website in the foreign world; it is impenetrable for non Koreans, let alone watchable, due to lag, constant buffering, etc. So I can't understand that having 2 guys talking over a game and posting those videos on YouTube can make them lose money.
All ASL broadcasts on Youtube make 0 dollars.
Youtube demonetizes/takes down every video that plays copyrighted music.
Also, all ads are sold for AfreecaTV, Youtube is just used as a re-streaming platform.
How does that make any sense? They are allowed to play all the music they do under Korean copyright law. So youtube fucks them over by applying US copyright law to them?
On March 09 2021 17:59 Zekkezgz wrote: Please help me here. I just can't get how this doesn't make sense financially. How much does Tastosis get paid? I mean... Technically, the setup is already there for a Korean cast. So it's just their salary, which Youtube views would pay alone. On the other side, they don't need to promote their crappy website in the foreign world; it is impenetrable for non Koreans, let alone watchable, due to lag, constant buffering, etc. So I can't understand that having 2 guys talking over a game and posting those videos on YouTube can make them lose money.
All ASL broadcasts on Youtube make 0 dollars.
Youtube demonetizes/takes down every video that plays copyrighted music.
Also, all ads are sold for AfreecaTV, Youtube is just used as a re-streaming platform.
How does that make any sense? They are allowed to play all the music they do under Korean copyright law. So youtube fucks them over by applying US copyright law to them?
How does it not make any sense? Youtube is a Google company that operates under specific laws that apply for all of their users unless they choose to offer preferential treatment to some of them.
The copyrighted music thing has been happening on Youtube for very long. There have been very successful channels (far more than Afreeca's) that have been taken down altogether because of this rule.
There are probably thousands of videos of people complaining about this in some form or the other.
If entity[s] are able to stream the ASL feed while providing commentary and producing content using websites that are not AfreecaTV then this is not the worst thing to happen and could very well end up being a positive for Broodwar.
If AfreecaTV ends up charging exorbitant fees to license, pursue copyright infringement, and actively disincentives foreign community involvement. Then this is not only a very poor business decision if you could call it that, but a terrible announcement.
ASL produced the stream for viewers to watch StarCraft:Broodwar. Viewership was in the hundreds on ASLen but in the thousands on YouTube. Compared to the Korean audience of main ASL with 100k+ and tens of thousands across various restreams. Metrics on this data if available would show a clear trend.
AfreecaTV if they are pursuing a strategy of consolidation would be operating too an extent in their best interests cultivating the scene further in Korea as best they can.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels.
This language, particularly "on their AfreecaTV channels" is the spooky part. Depending on how you cast your aspersions moving forward we will find out what this means if anything.
Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Afreeca could do well to build out their platform to exclusively foreigners or make simple improvements that give better functionality than exists currently. Had they done this in the past, surely they could see some marginal gains in their investment? English subtitles? spoTV was on that way before and had active involvement with translation and engagement. Selective advertising, fundraising, merchandise? YouTube exclusive content for english viewers?
Maybe some not all was worth the effort if any so they decided to do nothing, but also it's not as if Korean StarCraft owes us anything; and this announcement goes along way in highlighting this fact.
On March 03 2021 11:11 AfreecaTVGlobal wrote: Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels. If you are interested, please contact us here!
Thank you, AfreecaTV
I sent them my feelings. Feel free to do to the same, it doesn't require registration. Maybe if they'll see how many ppl are disappointed they might reconsider what they did. At least we can try.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
On those days it was luxury even watch ex-pros play. There were a lot of small tourneys that produced awesome games and storylines (Sea vs Killer, return of Bisu, Alphago etc) but for most part we had to use restreams, additional scripts etc to even watch laddergames. In this enviroment Afreeca gave players generous streaming deals (acording likes of Bisu and Sea). Finally VANT starleague started the ASL-era. I just feel that everyone takes this way too far without knowing how there was great scene without english casts or streams. And moreover it should not taken granted. For me it is the players you should be watching but whatever I quess.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
Ah I see, I had no idea. It's fitting to label it the dark age, and just looking at the wiki I can see most of the players who stream were competing as well. I've spent so much time watching streams like last, hero, I remember watching minus)eagle when he streamed a little learning everything I could, gonna watch these Sonic vods!
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
That's fun. From a different perspective though, you should think about if there's a possibility that your baskets are everywhere in the neighbourhood and nobody needs them anymore. Obviously that doesn't translate to a digital service such as afreeca, which can generate more content from a wide array of potential games, but you chose that analogy in a digital world. Not to mention, no half talented salesman would entirely ignore the population of die-hard angolians, in the sense he wouldn't check out potential forms of solutions. Might be you can still generate some earnings if you find cheaper ways to ship or allow them the manufacturing of their own baskets after buying a license or something. After all, you want your business to grow, regardless if there are other basket manufacturers on the market or not. If you never change anything, chances are high sales will stagnate, drop and you will die before you can cash out.
Point is, I never understood the "Blizz just acts like cooperation" or only slightly different "Korean just does $$$". It's not impossible to find alternatives or show good will, even if it's only to brand yourself as fun coperation or some new age hippie bullshit. The numbers Tastosis show are not so small I'd throw away any chances without second and third though, 'cause the costs are comparably small in marketing terms.
I might be wrong tho and Tastosis both drive around in their Porsches and live the good life.
Good point, the analogy isn't perfect. Allow me to make a better one: ...
Yeah, it's fun and I just replied to trigger you. No need to derail, for everything else, see Schamtoo's response.
On March 07 2021 09:19 Jealous wrote: Just think about it, let's say you have a business and make a product, let's say it's baskets. You spend $1 on the materials and sell them for $21, making $20 profit. Your baskets are really popular in your neighborhood, where delivery is cheap - practically free. However, for whatever reason, your baskets gained a small hardcore following in Angola. To ship your baskets to Angola costs $50. Are you going to ship your baskets to Angola, despite the fact that you are losing $30 for each one? Of course not, because that'd be moronic. Similarly, it is just as moronic to expect a business like ASL to care about the foreign audience when we bring in no notable revenue.
That's fun. From a different perspective though, you should think about if there's a possibility that your baskets are everywhere in the neighbourhood and nobody needs them anymore. Obviously that doesn't translate to a digital service such as afreeca, which can generate more content from a wide array of potential games, but you chose that analogy in a digital world. Not to mention, no half talented salesman would entirely ignore the population of die-hard angolians, in the sense he wouldn't check out potential forms of solutions. Might be you can still generate some earnings if you find cheaper ways to ship or allow them the manufacturing of their own baskets after buying a license or something. After all, you want your business to grow, regardless if there are other basket manufacturers on the market or not. If you never change anything, chances are high sales will stagnate, drop and you will die before you can cash out.
Point is, I never understood the "Blizz just acts like cooperation" or only slightly different "Korean just does $$$". It's not impossible to find alternatives or show good will, even if it's only to brand yourself as fun coperation or some new age hippie bullshit. The numbers Tastosis show are not so small I'd throw away any chances without second and third though, 'cause the costs are comparably small in marketing terms.
While I don't disagree with the idea that there is enough of a foreign base that would potentially be willing to pay for tastosis and that Afreeca should explore the option, the outrage that some posters exhibit towards Afreeca's goodwill of close to 5 years (remember that Afreeca also paid BD/xkcd to cast before tastosis stole their thunder lol) due to their decision is something, and this is the primary motivating factor as to why Jealous has been coming up with all these analogies. I think it's understandable to be upset, but keeping it in check and trying to understand why they made the decision and how to move forward from here is the best option here.
I'm neutral about the situation, as I can see there might be logical reasons to end EN Casting. I also see the reasons are probably not totally rational and born out of some sort of ignorance. I haven't seen much "over the top", if a company is offended by those replies, they're quite thin-skinned.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
Ah I see, I had no idea. It's fitting to label it the dark age, and just looking at the wiki I can see most of the players who stream were competing as well. I've spent so much time watching streams like last, hero, I remember watching minus)eagle when he streamed a little learning everything I could, gonna watch these Sonic vods!
Ye, as you can see from the wiki, it started off as an amateur tournament during the very end of the Kespa era and as time went on more and more pros joined as they quit sc2 and became streamers on afreeca. The last season (or maybe even the last two) ended up being broadcast on OGN, which I still find to be quite impressive for something that started off as a small amateur tournament.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
On those days it was luxury even watch ex-pros play. There were a lot of small tourneys that produced awesome games and storylines (Sea vs Killer, return of Bisu, Alphago etc) but for most part we had to use restreams, additional scripts etc to even watch laddergames. In this enviroment Afreeca gave players generous streaming deals (acording likes of Bisu and Sea). Finally VANT starleague started the ASL-era. I just feel that everyone takes this way too far without knowing how there was great scene without english casts or streams. And moreover it should not taken granted. For me it is the players you should be watching but whatever I quess.
I agree. Considering how it started for a lot of the veterans of this scene when people complain it can get pretty dull. I've tried to say as little as possible navigating the nuance of this discussion and bridging the divide between games, community and wider esports scene as I perceive it.
As much as people may be taking it too far, myself included. It comes from a good place; but also from a sense of dignity for the game and how broadcasting has improved since days of old. Some people can't even handle retro graphics, so they will be hard pressed to tune into sub-par from a technical perspective broadcasting. ASL cancelled a high quality english stream that's about it, I think if we want to watch StarCraft we'll be able to watch StarCraft. I just sincerely hope that it's not a negative experience, if the Shinee thread is any example of how useless rumor and innuendo is I don't know what else is.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
Ah I see, I had no idea. It's fitting to label it the dark age, and just looking at the wiki I can see most of the players who stream were competing as well. I've spent so much time watching streams like last, hero, I remember watching minus)eagle when he streamed a little learning everything I could, gonna watch these Sonic vods!
Ye, as you can see from the wiki, it started off as an amateur tournament during the very end of the Kespa era and as time went on more and more pros joined as they quit sc2 and became streamers on afreeca. The last season (or maybe even the last two) ended up being broadcast on OGN, which I still find to be quite impressive for something that started off as a small amateur tournament.
It would be something to witness a resurgence in the player pool of broodwar. I don't understand how a game so popular fell off amongst Koreans. It's not an understatement to say BW is the hardest and most competitive e-sport of all time, yet it's been eclipsed by less mechanically and strategically in-depth games.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
Ah I see, I had no idea. It's fitting to label it the dark age, and just looking at the wiki I can see most of the players who stream were competing as well. I've spent so much time watching streams like last, hero, I remember watching minus)eagle when he streamed a little learning everything I could, gonna watch these Sonic vods!
Ye, as you can see from the wiki, it started off as an amateur tournament during the very end of the Kespa era and as time went on more and more pros joined as they quit sc2 and became streamers on afreeca. The last season (or maybe even the last two) ended up being broadcast on OGN, which I still find to be quite impressive for something that started off as a small amateur tournament.
It would be something to witness a resurgence in the player pool of broodwar. I don't understand how a game so popular fell off amongst Koreans. It's not an understatement to say BW is the hardest and most competitive e-sport of all time, yet it's been eclipsed by less mechanically and strategically in-depth games.
Has it really fallen all that far?
It still seems really rather popular just people prefer to watch legends of the game streaming over tournaments. Not to say tournaments don’t have popularity either.
Any new talent I mean, why bother? The structure isn’t there to compete with the popularity of BW’s gods streaming and it’s not there to try to close a skill gap with a cohort who all had a lot of latent talent allied to years of a full time collaborative practice regime.
BW being hard is only particularly relevant in enabling pretty huge skill gaps to occur. It’s like trying to pick up an instrument solo and trying to get a spot on a prestigious orchestra. Sure it’s potentially possible but vs the folks who went to a conservatory and have been playing for years and rubbing off other musicians it’s a gigantic mountain to overcome.
I sent a message through the link in the OP asking for a bit of clarification and info if I were to do my own casting.
Have yet to hear a response, but I suspect they would not allow me to upload anything outside of Afreeca which would be a big limiting factor in any interest to do so.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
Sonic Starleague Pretty much the core of BW during the "dark age" (aka when blizzard/kespa forced those poor boys to play sc2 and before ASL started)
Ah I see, I had no idea. It's fitting to label it the dark age, and just looking at the wiki I can see most of the players who stream were competing as well. I've spent so much time watching streams like last, hero, I remember watching minus)eagle when he streamed a little learning everything I could, gonna watch these Sonic vods!
Ye, as you can see from the wiki, it started off as an amateur tournament during the very end of the Kespa era and as time went on more and more pros joined as they quit sc2 and became streamers on afreeca. The last season (or maybe even the last two) ended up being broadcast on OGN, which I still find to be quite impressive for something that started off as a small amateur tournament.
It would be something to witness a resurgence in the player pool of broodwar. I don't understand how a game so popular fell off amongst Koreans. It's not an understatement to say BW is the hardest and most competitive e-sport of all time, yet it's been eclipsed by less mechanically and strategically in-depth games.
Has it really fallen all that far?
It still seems really rather popular just people prefer to watch legends of the game streaming over tournaments. Not to say tournaments don’t have popularity either.
Any new talent I mean, why bother? The structure isn’t there to compete with the popularity of BW’s gods streaming and it’s not there to try to close a skill gap with a cohort who all had a lot of latent talent allied to years of a full time collaborative practice regime.
BW being hard is only particularly relevant in enabling pretty huge skill gaps to occur. It’s like trying to pick up an instrument solo and trying to get a spot on a prestigious orchestra. Sure it’s potentially possible but vs the folks who went to a conservatory and have been playing for years and rubbing off other musicians it’s a gigantic mountain to overcome.
No, it's been great to watch all the pros stream gameplay for each race and duke it out weekly as well as have great competition through tournaments and sponsored matches. Talent within the game like you say is hard to flesh out, but Koreans had the reputation of pride and work ethic it's a little surprising thus far no new younger players came along, although I agree it's not like its an easy task; but still the younger or less experienced players by comparison within the scene have come along well relatively speaking.
It's probably easier to say that since the ending of Kespa, decline of SC2 within Korea and the return of those players to streaming and broodwar no new talent entered the scene the way things went up for LoL/OW. Not exactly familiar with how things have gone for the past several years within popular titles and esports in Korea and also pre&post covid. I'd also inquire into how exactly "Korean esports" has faired in comparison to the "global" esports banner. US/EU market seems to have really taken off with sponsors, streaming and tournaments it may have overtaken Korea a long time ago. I'm fairly out of the loop on this subject, but I've derailed this thread enough
On March 10 2021 04:22 bracala wrote: Can someone post some links with Brood War games before ASL with Artosis and Tastless as casters? What tournaments did they cast before ASL and KSL?
On March 10 2021 04:51 bracala wrote: Thx bro i watched those WCGs! Did they cast some OSL,MSL or some other korean tournaments?
I believe they may have casted GSL (GomTV), I don't think they did OSL or MSL. I'm not exactly an expert, though, so someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
On March 10 2021 04:51 bracala wrote: Thx bro i watched those WCGs! Did they cast some OSL,MSL or some other korean tournaments?
I believe they may have casted GSL (GomTV), I don't think they did OSL or MSL. I'm not exactly an expert, though, so someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.
Tasteless did GomTV Classic Seasons 1-3 (actually the reason he moved to Korea) until Kespa decided that "3 tournaments + proleague is too much for our players so they dont get to play in gom anymore". Afaik Artosis casted some Proleague before SC2 came out.
On March 10 2021 04:51 bracala wrote: Thx bro i watched those WCGs! Did they cast some OSL,MSL or some other korean tournaments?
I believe they may have casted GSL (GomTV), I don't think they did OSL or MSL. I'm not exactly an expert, though, so someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.
Tasteless did GomTV Classic Seasons 1-3 (actually the reason he moved to Korea) until Kespa decided that "3 tournaments + proleague is too much for our players so they dont get to play in gom anymore". Afaik Artosis casted some Proleague before SC2 came out.
I think the Gom situation was more complicated than that because it was individual teams that pulled out first, I believe it was the telecom sponsored ones first because Gom was trying to be a competitor or something? I forget the details but it was something like that.
But, thanks for correcting me! I do remember now it was SDM + Tasteless for Gom, at least some of it.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
I am confused.
Don't they directly say in the OP that anyone can restream the games on Afreeca? There is no 'license' situation.
^ I believe it's less so about the license and more so the ability to stream/upload the games on twitch and youtube. However, I also have a hard time seeing Afreeca approve this because we aren't talking about several hundred or thousand dollars here, but Afreeca has likely put in quite a lot of money to run this in the first place so they would need some hefty amounts in order to approve the use of their content on a competitor's website: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/525290-information-from-korea?page=33#651
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
The BW scene was quite interesting during those dark days. In comparison to now where there is a ton of BW pros that are streaming as well as competitions from ASL to ASTL to KCM etc... with official english casts and Korean community members that give us inside news, most of the old tournaments then were online-only such as BCTV, 41 Starleague, LoveTV etc... and featured lots of amateurs with several pros at best. The scene was small, but it was like the old wild west where there was a lot of energy and desire to build things up mixed with some chaos.
The 2013-2015 era is typically referred to as the Sonic era because aside from those tourneys mentioned above, a tournament organizer named Sonic started organizing lots of online tournaments with the eventual culmination of his efforts being a large offline tournament that became incredibly popular, prestigious and felt like it was the direct successor of OSL even if it only lasted for 2 seasons on OGN (Afreeca took over afterwards with VNSL into ASL). If there was no SSL, there would've been no ASL or any official english casts. This was at a time where as mentioned, we used to watch twitch streams of afreeca streams since afreeca streams were unwatchable for pretty much all foreigners compared to now where you have access to so much more. To avoid going more offtopic, if you or anyone else want more details about Sonic and SSL, I wrote a good summary about this years ago: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/520795-sonics-legacy-ssls-lasting-impact
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
I am confused.
Don't they directly say in the OP that anyone can restream the games on Afreeca? There is no 'license' situation.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels.
It says their own AfreecaTV channels. This implies exclusivity. If you stream ASL on Twitch/YouTube you could run into problems potentially if you don't have permission, denied permission or you attempt to monetize ASL content without consent.
Whenever ASL is streamed on BJ channels like hero, Best, Zero or anyone on Twitch they disable Twitch streams. If ASL is cancelling english afreeca, and closing YouTube I hope it means nothing and they can be taken at face value when saying broadcasting to their own fans through clean feed is encouraged and not a problem.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
I take you didnt watch BW 2013-2015?
Was there much of a BW scene in 2013-2015? At first glance I couldn't answer your question until I look at the Wikipedia history for StarCraft2 Proleague. Hard to believe in retrospect SC2 came out in 2010 and players played both games. "StarCraft II came into place for the 2012 – 2013 season" "OnGameNet stopped broadcasting Proleague starting the 2013 – 2014 season, leaving SPOTVGames as the sole broadcaster for the league" and then Kespa discontinued.
I don't really understand your question? What happened in 2013-2015? I was certainly watching from WoL up until Hots, but around Hots I would say I lost interest in SC2. It's kind of ironic pivoting to SC2 which was unintentional since I don't want to answer your question, but I'll stop rambling to say I always consider BW>SC2 in every way and to clarify I learned of TL probably 07-09, and then got acquainted with the pro scene from there, definitely not an individual who was in on the glory days.
The BW scene was quite interesting during those dark days. In comparison to now where there is a ton of BW pros that are streaming as well as competitions from ASL to ASTL to KCM etc... with official english casts and Korean community members that give us inside news, most of the old tournaments then were online-only such as BCTV, 41 Starleague, LoveTV etc... and featured lots of amateurs with several pros at best. The scene was small, but it was like the old wild west where there was a lot of energy and desire to build things up mixed with some chaos.
The 2013-2015 era is typically referred to as the Sonic era because aside from those tourneys mentioned above, a tournament organizer named Sonic started organizing lots of online tournaments with the eventual culmination of his efforts being a large offline tournament that became incredibly popular, prestigious and felt like it was the direct successor of OSL even if it only lasted for 2 seasons on OGN (Afreeca took over afterwards with VNSL into ASL). If there was no SSL, there would've been no ASL or any official english casts. This was at a time where as mentioned, we used to watch twitch streams of afreeca streams since afreeca streams were unwatchable for pretty much all foreigners compared to now where you have access to so much more. To avoid going more offtopic, if you or anyone else want more details about Sonic and SSL, I wrote a good summary about this years ago: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/520795-sonics-legacy-ssls-lasting-impact
Thank you I really enjoyed your piece, and I don't mean to spread disinformation or be off topic. I had no idea of the legacy of Sonic and his efforts keeping Broodwar together in that era. I've been watching so many of those players stream and had no idea they competed relatively recently within that ecosystem which started from scratch and became momentous. I would like to say more, but I've said enough. I emailed my questions to afreeca which is what I should have done in the first place and hopefully I'm just being paranoid because I've been awake for 24+hours and using my TL account for the first time since 2012.
On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy.
What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol
On March 10 2021 04:51 bracala wrote: Thx bro i watched those WCGs! Did they cast some OSL,MSL or some other korean tournaments?
I believe they may have casted GSL (GomTV), I don't think they did OSL or MSL. I'm not exactly an expert, though, so someone can correct me if I'm mistaken.
Tasteless did GomTV Classic Seasons 1-3 (actually the reason he moved to Korea) until Kespa decided that "3 tournaments + proleague is too much for our players so they dont get to play in gom anymore". Afaik Artosis casted some Proleague before SC2 came out.
I think the Gom situation was more complicated than that because it was individual teams that pulled out first, I believe it was the telecom sponsored ones first because Gom was trying to be a competitor or something? I forget the details but it was something like that.
But, thanks for correcting me! I do remember now it was SDM + Tasteless for Gom, at least some of it.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
I am confused.
Don't they directly say in the OP that anyone can restream the games on Afreeca? There is no 'license' situation.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels.
It says their own AfreecaTV channels. This implies exclusivity. If you stream ASL on Twitch/YouTube you could run into problems potentially if you don't have permission, denied permission or you attempt to monetize ASL content without consent.
Whenever ASL is streamed on BJ channels like hero, Best, Zero or anyone on Twitch they disable Twitch streams. If ASL is cancelling english afreeca, and closing YouTube I hope it means nothing and they can be taken at face value when saying broadcasting to their own fans through clean feed is encouraged and not a problem.
Yes, you have to stream on Afreeca, it says it right there. Yes that means you can't stream on Twitch/Youtube and no you’re not going to get a license to do so (atleast no 'amateur’ caster will be able to offer enough money to convince them otherwise).
Again, there is no confusion here. Anyone who wants to stream and commentate on this can do so if they use Afreeca. And won't be able to do so if they don't.
Yes its exclusive to Afreeca and anyone can stream it there.
This is just another reason our community must self-organize better. So that it is not just a sequence of forum messages. But real solutions, plans, money, etc. Not only supporting the current scene, but developing a better one.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
Why would an exclusive english stream enable the best quality production and content? What do you mean by vitalising?
We know how an official ASL stream looks like, they are now on their 11th ASL tournament. I watched their wildcard placement live stream a few days ago at 1080p. It works perfectly fine.
On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy.
What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol
Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments which is ASL right now and has been for the past few years. If you consider yourself as one of your own self proclaimed children I am certainly not asking anyone to think of you.I don't udnerstand why anyone would want an exclusive English stream. ASL has always allowed restreams and recast of their live streams, English or otherwise. You may not be interested in casting ASL but why would you suddenly seek to deny others who happen to speak English to restream ASL?
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
Why would an exclusive english stream enable the best quality production and content? What do you mean by vitalising?
We know how an official ASL stream looks like, they are now on their 11th ASL tournament. I watched their wildcard placement live stream a few days ago at 1080p. It works perfectly fine.
On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy.
What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol
Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments which is ASL right now and has been for the past few years. If you consider yourself as one of your own self proclaimed children I am certainly not asking anyone to think of you.I don't udnerstand why anyone would want an exclusive English stream. ASL has always allowed restreams and recast of their live streams, English or otherwise. You may not be interested in casting ASL but why would you suddenly seek to deny others who happen to speak English to restream ASL?
Your ignorance here is forgivable because anyone who doesn't follow the foreign competitive scene would be unlikely to know Schamtoo (though many high level Koreans have participated in his NUMEROUS Have At You tours [HAY]), however your argument is, based on how I understood it, not sound.
This is my interpretation:
1. You say this will kill foreign casting scene. 2. Schamtoo says it won't affect much because he has never relied on Afreeca in the first place. 3. Your counter argument of "this is still bad," while true, is not an actual response to what was said.
It feels like you moved the goalposts a little. The reality is that the vast majority of active foreign casters over the past several years have had nothing to do with Afreeca or ASL/ASTL so none of this really affects them. Beyond that, this was all borne from a tangential discussion that was based on the posts of someone who wrote a lot of words in a somewhat overly verbose way, seemingly beyond their full command thereof, leaving a lot of room for nitpicking.
TL;DR: Schamtoo has done more than most for the foreign scene over the past few years, out of pocket and with many manhours invested, and his point is correct.
No really, why would anyone want ASL to have an exclusive English cast? An English cast yes, but to make it exclusive why? ASL has an English cast for the past few years and it was never exclusive, so why call for it out of the blue? I genuinely want to understand.
I never said it will kill off the foreign casting scene. When I wrote it will kill off all community English casters, I meant specifically for ASL. And yes an exclusive stream will kill off all other English casters for ASL. It's kind of the point of an exclusive stream. This is what I don't understand. Why call to make an English stream exclusive? It was never a condition of ASL stream. ASL has never made their English stream exclusive, they don't even make their Korean exclusive so why call for one now?
On March 11 2021 08:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote: No really, why would anyone want ASL to have an exclusive English cast? An English cast yes, but to make it exclusive why? ASL has an English cast for the past few years and it was never exclusive, so why call for it out of the blue? I genuinely want to understand.
I never said it will kill off the foreign casting scene. When I wrote it will kill off all community English casters, I meant specifically for ASL. And yes an exclusive stream will kill off all other English casters for ASL. It's kind of the point of an exclusive stream. This is what I don't understand. Why call to make an English stream exclusive? It was never a condition. ASL has never made their English stream exclusive, so why call for one now?
My initial read-through of Waldo's posts gave me the impression that they have a tenuous grasp of English, but consequent posts have highlighted one reason - official, high-level production value. I don't think anyone but Waldo is arguing FOR exclusive English casting rights. What the discussion has pivoted to is that even if there were exclusive casting rights, it wouldn't make much of an impact on foreign casters.
With your clarification though, of course that is a -> b logic, so no argument there. It just wasn't clear in your initial post that Schamtoo responded to IMO (don't mean to speak for the man).
OK I get it. I reread the posts. I thought it was contextually obvious that I was speaking about ASL, but Schamtoo thought I was talking about the foreigner scene casting, which I quite honestly do not watch (sorry, I'm sure you guys do good work).
And perhaps Waldo has no idea what exclusive actually means, (it doesn't mean official or production value) but I would suppose that depends on Waldo to clarify.
On March 11 2021 08:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote: OK I get it. I reread the posts. I thought it was contextually obvious that I was speaking about ASL, but Schamtoo thought I was talking about the foreigner scene casting, which I quite honestly do not watch (sorry, I'm sure you guys do good work).
And perhaps Waldo has no idea what exclusive actually means, (it doesn't mean official or production value) but I would suppose that depends on Waldo to clarify.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
Why would an exclusive english stream enable the best quality production and content? What do you mean by vitalising?
We know how an official ASL stream looks like, they are now on their 11th ASL tournament. I watched their wildcard placement live stream a few days ago at 1080p. It works perfectly fine.
On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy.
What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol
Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments which is ASL right now and has been for the past few years. If you consider yourself as one of your own self proclaimed children I am certainly not asking anyone to think of you.I don't udnerstand why anyone would want an exclusive English stream. ASL has always allowed restreams and recast of their live streams, English or otherwise. You may not be interested in casting ASL but why would you suddenly seek to deny others who happen to speak English to restream ASL?
It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments
So, you only want highest quality tours, but care about community casters being killed off? I'm confused. Community casters don't have high quality streams, and if they do theyre operating at a HUGE loss $ wise.
Also, exclusive or not, others have been covering ASL games I think (SuperSaiyan? FalconPaladin? I think?)... do you care about the games? or the commentators? If the commentator isn't observing perfectly does it matter it's a great game?
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
Why would an exclusive english stream enable the best quality production and content? What do you mean by vitalising?
We know how an official ASL stream looks like, they are now on their 11th ASL tournament. I watched their wildcard placement live stream a few days ago at 1080p. It works perfectly fine.
On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy.
What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol
Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments which is ASL right now and has been for the past few years. If you consider yourself as one of your own self proclaimed children I am certainly not asking anyone to think of you.I don't udnerstand why anyone would want an exclusive English stream. ASL has always allowed restreams and recast of their live streams, English or otherwise. You may not be interested in casting ASL but why would you suddenly seek to deny others who happen to speak English to restream ASL?
Let's remove the term exclusive and ask the question again. Would having multiple english streams provide quality production and content. I believe that's up for a debate but In my opinion the answer is no. Vitalizing means allowing for growth parallel to content provided by ASL. We now know ASL has cut content for the english stream and neutered their YouTube feed, one can assume that they are not interested in catering to the foreign audience.
On March 11 2021 08:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote: No really, why would anyone want ASL to have an exclusive English cast? An English cast yes, but to make it exclusive why? ASL has an English cast for the past few years and it was never exclusive, so why call for it out of the blue? I genuinely want to understand.
I never said it will kill off the foreign casting scene. When I wrote it will kill off all community English casters, I meant specifically for ASL. And yes an exclusive stream will kill off all other English casters for ASL. It's kind of the point of an exclusive stream. This is what I don't understand. Why call to make an English stream exclusive? It was never a condition of ASL stream. ASL has never made their English stream exclusive, they don't even make their Korean exclusive so why call for one now?
ASL contracted english speaking commentators to broadcast their content to a foreign audience. I believe that qualifies as exclusive. I've already answered your question and I qualified my statement by saying It's not something I want nor do I think it is the only option. The confusion begins with you believing exclusivity=exclusion, I reject the idea that "exclusive" will kill community casting, and the ideal as you believe it to exist never existed because before it was always the same business model of Afreeca sponsoring ASL and paying casters as well as providing a YouTube stream with production and VODS.
Anyone can restream ASL on Afreeca using any language. I believe it's counter-productive to make Afreeca the "exclusive" platform for ASL.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
I am confused.
Don't they directly say in the OP that anyone can restream the games on Afreeca? There is no 'license' situation.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels.
It says their own AfreecaTV channels. This implies exclusivity. If you stream ASL on Twitch/YouTube you could run into problems potentially if you don't have permission, denied permission or you attempt to monetize ASL content without consent.
Whenever ASL is streamed on BJ channels like hero, Best, Zero or anyone on Twitch they disable Twitch streams. If ASL is cancelling english afreeca, and closing YouTube I hope it means nothing and they can be taken at face value when saying broadcasting to their own fans through clean feed is encouraged and not a problem.
Yes, you have to stream on Afreeca, it says it right there. Yes that means you can't stream on Twitch/Youtube and no you’re not going to get a license to do so (atleast no 'amateur’ caster will be able to offer enough money to convince them otherwise).
Again, there is no confusion here. Anyone who wants to stream and commentate on this can do so if they use Afreeca. And won't be able to do so if they don't.
Yes its exclusive to Afreeca and anyone can stream it there.
If both of you for example think this is a good thing then the confusion lies in me not articulating why this is bad, I believed it to be self-explanatory in the context of Broodwar and international growth.
On March 11 2021 08:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote: No really, why would anyone want ASL to have an exclusive English cast? An English cast yes, but to make it exclusive why? ASL has an English cast for the past few years and it was never exclusive, so why call for it out of the blue? I genuinely want to understand.
I never said it will kill off the foreign casting scene. When I wrote it will kill off all community English casters, I meant specifically for ASL. And yes an exclusive stream will kill off all other English casters for ASL. It's kind of the point of an exclusive stream. This is what I don't understand. Why call to make an English stream exclusive? It was never a condition. ASL has never made their English stream exclusive, so why call for one now?
My initial read-through of Waldo's posts gave me the impression that they have a tenuous grasp of English, but consequent posts have highlighted one reason - official, high-level production value. I don't think anyone but Waldo is arguing FOR exclusive English casting rights. What the discussion has pivoted to is that even if there were exclusive casting rights, it wouldn't make much of an impact on foreign casters.
With your clarification though, of course that is a -> b logic, so no argument there. It just wasn't clear in your initial post that Schamtoo responded to IMO (don't mean to speak for the man).
I specifically stated in italics that I do not "want" what has been leveled against me, I'm simply arguing sporadically and out of context the many reasons why I believe for example having an "official" stream for "english and other languages" is a positive.
On March 11 2021 08:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote: OK I get it. I reread the posts. I thought it was contextually obvious that I was speaking about ASL, but Schamtoo thought I was talking about the foreigner scene casting, which I quite honestly do not watch (sorry, I'm sure you guys do good work).
And perhaps Waldo has no idea what exclusive actually means, (it doesn't mean official or production value) but I would suppose that depends on Waldo to clarify.
Neither of us know what exclusivity means in context of a Korean owned business providing a service they have now cancelled. It would appear that they are cancelling the english stream and assuming they employ Tasteless and Artosis as well as the couple other foreign community casters who get paid for their work they are going to be making them cast games other than Broodwar.
With all of this being said I will clarify that having ASL pay casters to provide a service was a good thing. If ASL will not allow anyone outside of Afreeca.tv to stream ASL tournaments and/or commentate and upload those VOD's this is bad. ASL being the premier tournament in existence new and existing viewers would be deprived of a non-Korean production.
This seems like a downward trajectory; ASL closed their Twitch a while ago, they have now shuttered the english production and ceased streaming on YouTube. I understand the business decision, but I would say that Twitch ASL games would reach thousands of viewers, as well as the thousands of viewers on YouTube. Between those numbers opportunity is present for growth and expansion however minuscule by comparison to the greater esports ecosystem.
I'm not complaining or casting aspersions to be simply negative. At the end of the day we still get to watch ASL. I'm just disappointed and I don't believe it's even a good decision to begin with. If Broodwar is truly niche outside of Korea and it's simply not profitable to employ foreign casters or provide a foreign production then so be it. I will say in closing that even if this is true foreign producers in whatever capacity they exist currently in my opinion would be punished because community casting however passionate would have less incentive and an even harder time breaking even or turning a profit. If that's even a thing. I'll put it this way - I would rather watch a restream with an english chat or a commentated VOD on youtube then sit through a Korean broadcast on a Korean website, and it's not because I don't like Korean commentary or the Korean website.
Hope for some info soon,ASL is near! I see on ASL S11 liquipedia page there is spanish broadcast! Can someone explain me why spanish and no english? I mean english is worldwide,spanish not so...
I would heavily prefer people could cast the ASL on any platform, it would greatly increase the chance of it actually happening and the exposure in general. Being tied to only Afreeca is a bad thing, but I can't argue that it is unreasonable for Afreeca to want their tournament to be broadcast on their service. Allowing anyone to restream, so long as it is on their service, is already more generous then many others.
On March 11 2021 17:53 bracala wrote: Hope for some info soon,ASL is near! I see on ASL S11 liquipedia page there is spanish broadcast! Can someone explain me why spanish and no english? I mean english is worldwide,spanish not so...
There is a cast in Spanish since the ASL10 season.
The casters are Deathfate (Spain) and Jan (Peru), Both SC casters, with +10000 followers and +30000 respectively in YouTube channel.
Do you think Afreeca will bother to take down any Youtube videos? As stated ealier in this thread, they're using all sorts of music without caring about copyright laws and it's would be free advertising for them anyway
Afreeca is hopeless for me, it lags like hell and it's not user friendly on any language except korean. Took me 30 sec to load the site now and I'm not even trying to watch any vods.
On March 11 2021 17:53 bracala wrote: Hope for some info soon,ASL is near! I see on ASL S11 liquipedia page there is spanish broadcast! Can someone explain me why spanish and no english? I mean english is worldwide,spanish not so...
There is a cast in Spanish since the ASL10 season.
The casters are Deathfate (Spain) and Jan (Peru), Both SC casters, with +10000 followers and +30000 respectively in YouTube channel.
On March 11 2021 17:53 bracala wrote: Hope for some info soon,ASL is near! I see on ASL S11 liquipedia page there is spanish broadcast! Can someone explain me why spanish and no english? I mean english is worldwide,spanish not so...
There is a cast in Spanish since the ASL10 season.
The casters are Deathfate (Spain) and Jan (Peru), Both SC casters, with +10000 followers and +30000 respectively in YouTube channel.
Brood War has had a strong Hispanic/Latino following for a long time so it is great that there are prominent communities and casters in 2021 Salud <3
Yea its great dont get me wrong i just wondering is that official cast in afreeca studio like Tasstosis or they cast from home? And do they cast on AfreecaTV?
On March 11 2021 17:53 bracala wrote: Hope for some info soon,ASL is near! I see on ASL S11 liquipedia page there is spanish broadcast! Can someone explain me why spanish and no english? I mean english is worldwide,spanish not so...
There is a cast in Spanish since the ASL10 season.
The casters are Deathfate (Spain) and Jan (Peru), Both SC casters, with +10000 followers and +30000 respectively in YouTube channel.
Brood War has had a strong Hispanic/Latino following for a long time so it is great that there are prominent communities and casters in 2021 Salud <3
Yea its great dont get me wrong i just wondering is that official cast in afreeca studio like Tasstosis or they cast from home? And do they cast on AfreecaTV?
I don't have that information but hopefully masoka does ^^
If we were able to cope and thrive a decade or two ago, I am sure the community will find a way to do it again without an official English cast. After all, much of this community is built upon improving what we found lacking in the Starcraft environment.
Thank you for the quality entertainment you produced specifically to the western audience, and I hope you keep the spirit of Starcraft high in the future.
I realise this choice could be based on several reasons.
Just a thought. Profitability wise, What was Afreeca getting out of it? I mean all the adverts between games were for Korean products. So foreign viewership wasn't going to influence advertising. Maybe Blizzard was involved at one point but that would never last nor make much financial sense for the longer term. Afreeca is Korea focused.
Also, some parts of the world had streaming issues with there only being high and medium video quality settings. The solution to that was of course to visit the YouTube channel.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
Why would an exclusive english stream enable the best quality production and content? What do you mean by vitalising?
We know how an official ASL stream looks like, they are now on their 11th ASL tournament. I watched their wildcard placement live stream a few days ago at 1080p. It works perfectly fine.
On March 10 2021 10:17 SchAmToo wrote:
On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy.
What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol
Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments which is ASL right now and has been for the past few years. If you consider yourself as one of your own self proclaimed children I am certainly not asking anyone to think of you.I don't udnerstand why anyone would want an exclusive English stream. ASL has always allowed restreams and recast of their live streams, English or otherwise. You may not be interested in casting ASL but why would you suddenly seek to deny others who happen to speak English to restream ASL?
Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments
So, you only want highest quality tours, but care about community casters being killed off? I'm confused. Community casters don't have high quality streams, and if they do theyre operating at a HUGE loss $ wise.
Also, exclusive or not, others have been covering ASL games I think (SuperSaiyan? FalconPaladin? I think?)... do you care about the games? or the commentators? If the commentator isn't observing perfectly does it matter it's a great game?
What are you talking about? ASL IS the highest quality tournament. The skill of the Korean pros cannot be in doubt. ASL is the tournament that features the highest skilled players. They are far and beyond any foreigner. The quality of ASL is beyond any foreigner tournament.
I have been watching ASL with no problems on 720p for the last two years. I just watched their wildcard tournament a week ago live at 1080p without problems.
You may not care about casting ASL, but why would you want to prevent those who would want to cast ASL? It's bizarre. It cannot be justified.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
Why would an exclusive english stream enable the best quality production and content? What do you mean by vitalising?
We know how an official ASL stream looks like, they are now on their 11th ASL tournament. I watched their wildcard placement live stream a few days ago at 1080p. It works perfectly fine.
On March 10 2021 05:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters.
? As an english community caster i feel like i have 0 overlap with ASL/ASTL and if it were to have an exclusive english cast happen i'd be happy.
What is this fake "wont someone think of the children" line lol
Never heard of you, but then again I'm only interested of the highest quality tournaments which is ASL right now and has been for the past few years. If you consider yourself as one of your own self proclaimed children I am certainly not asking anyone to think of you.I don't udnerstand why anyone would want an exclusive English stream. ASL has always allowed restreams and recast of their live streams, English or otherwise. You may not be interested in casting ASL but why would you suddenly seek to deny others who happen to speak English to restream ASL?
Let's remove the term exclusive and ask the question again. Would having multiple english streams provide quality production and content. I believe that's up for a debate but In my opinion the answer is no. Vitalizing means allowing for growth parallel to content provided by ASL. We now know ASL has cut content for the english stream and neutered their YouTube feed, one can assume that they are not interested in catering to the foreign audience.
On March 11 2021 08:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote: No really, why would anyone want ASL to have an exclusive English cast? An English cast yes, but to make it exclusive why? ASL has an English cast for the past few years and it was never exclusive, so why call for it out of the blue? I genuinely want to understand.
I never said it will kill off the foreign casting scene. When I wrote it will kill off all community English casters, I meant specifically for ASL. And yes an exclusive stream will kill off all other English casters for ASL. It's kind of the point of an exclusive stream. This is what I don't understand. Why call to make an English stream exclusive? It was never a condition of ASL stream. ASL has never made their English stream exclusive, they don't even make their Korean exclusive so why call for one now?
ASL contracted english speaking commentators to broadcast their content to a foreign audience. I believe that qualifies as exclusive. I've already answered your question and I qualified my statement by saying It's not something I want nor do I think it is the only option. The confusion begins with you believing exclusivity=exclusion, I reject the idea that "exclusive" will kill community casting, and the ideal as you believe it to exist never existed because before it was always the same business model of Afreeca sponsoring ASL and paying casters as well as providing a YouTube stream with production and VODS.
Anyone can restream ASL on Afreeca using any language. I believe it's counter-productive to make Afreeca the "exclusive" platform for ASL.
On March 09 2021 21:30 WaldosLonelyWife wrote: Ideally we get exclusive english restreams with commentary and vods.
Why would that be ideal? Why would you want an English stream to be exclusive? Let anybody who can cast in English cast, not just one person, just like it was in the past and now. Why would you want the future to be restricted?
Anyways, I just watched ASL11 wildcard live at source 1080p, no problem.
I believe it's fair to say we've been operating under sheer speculation. I don't want an exclusive english stream, I think in terms of business and productivity as well as professionalism it's better to have an exclusive stream on Twitch with the likes of Tastosis for example, but for every person who enjoys Tastosis there are some who don't, others who don't care, and a lot of people who wouldn't be driven to BW without.
Within the context of viewership and production, it's probably the best route? That being said, it's definitely a long-term and higher priority if there is no conflict with anyone being able to stream and produce. I say ideally because we are operating in a fog of war situation, I certainly don't understand what's going to happen and how this business will play out, I'm only speculating but for example in CS:GO restreamers of a major were given copyright infringement notices and temporarily banned because the tournament organizers claimed they owned the broadcasting rights even though they are not the publisher (Valve) and that you can watch the matches in the in-game client.
ASL is in fact just AfreecaStarleauge masquerading as a sponsor that essentially incubates the BroodWar talent pool within it's streaming ecosystem for a game it did not create or have the rights to. I don't want to cast shade on the organization because I do not know all the facts and there is a language and cultural barrier I'm just saying given the fact that StarCraft used to be the premier esport a level of skepticism and caution is warranted not withstanding all the positives of providing a platform for all our favorite and former players to stream, have careers, and compete still.
I personally never had much problem with Afreeca either streaming from the East coast with broadband 100/30 connection, and in-fact having just browsed again I can say they made small but consistent improvements to connectivity and UI. I do know many people say they had and continue to have problems, and it's not helped that they seemingly broke the VLC method a while ago or it doesn't work for me anymore; but again It's hard to tell who "AfreecaTV" is compared to "ASL" unlike let's say KSL and Blizzard or a spotv and Kespa.
Yes, you wrote a lot, but that doesn't answer the question. Why do you think an exclusive English stream is ideal? You say you don't want it, yet you think it is the ideal. It isn't, it is the worse idea, to kill off all community English casters. The ideal would be what it was before and as now; that restreams of any language are inclusive.
An exclusive english stream would enable the best quality production and content it should not equal the exclusion of communities or languages other than english so it would be better to license a foreigner production that could include all the niches of the foreign scene while vitalizing the relationship between Korean production and broadcast. It remains to be seen how broadcasting will play out without an official ASL stream right? What is ASL going to 28/03 in regards to any broadcast using their content. Ideally as you say nothing happens, anyone can restream and this speculation is moot and pointless.
I am confused.
Don't they directly say in the OP that anyone can restream the games on Afreeca? There is no 'license' situation.
Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels.
It says their own AfreecaTV channels. This implies exclusivity. If you stream ASL on Twitch/YouTube you could run into problems potentially if you don't have permission, denied permission or you attempt to monetize ASL content without consent.
Whenever ASL is streamed on BJ channels like hero, Best, Zero or anyone on Twitch they disable Twitch streams. If ASL is cancelling english afreeca, and closing YouTube I hope it means nothing and they can be taken at face value when saying broadcasting to their own fans through clean feed is encouraged and not a problem.
Yes, you have to stream on Afreeca, it says it right there. Yes that means you can't stream on Twitch/Youtube and no you’re not going to get a license to do so (atleast no 'amateur’ caster will be able to offer enough money to convince them otherwise).
Again, there is no confusion here. Anyone who wants to stream and commentate on this can do so if they use Afreeca. And won't be able to do so if they don't.
Yes its exclusive to Afreeca and anyone can stream it there.
If both of you for example think this is a good thing then the confusion lies in me not articulating why this is bad, I believed it to be self-explanatory in the context of Broodwar and international growth.
On March 11 2021 08:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote: No really, why would anyone want ASL to have an exclusive English cast? An English cast yes, but to make it exclusive why? ASL has an English cast for the past few years and it was never exclusive, so why call for it out of the blue? I genuinely want to understand.
I never said it will kill off the foreign casting scene. When I wrote it will kill off all community English casters, I meant specifically for ASL. And yes an exclusive stream will kill off all other English casters for ASL. It's kind of the point of an exclusive stream. This is what I don't understand. Why call to make an English stream exclusive? It was never a condition. ASL has never made their English stream exclusive, so why call for one now?
My initial read-through of Waldo's posts gave me the impression that they have a tenuous grasp of English, but consequent posts have highlighted one reason - official, high-level production value. I don't think anyone but Waldo is arguing FOR exclusive English casting rights. What the discussion has pivoted to is that even if there were exclusive casting rights, it wouldn't make much of an impact on foreign casters.
With your clarification though, of course that is a -> b logic, so no argument there. It just wasn't clear in your initial post that Schamtoo responded to IMO (don't mean to speak for the man).
I specifically stated in italics that I do not "want" what has been leveled against me, I'm simply arguing sporadically and out of context the many reasons why I believe for example having an "official" stream for "english and other languages" is a positive.
On March 11 2021 08:33 Dangermousecatdog wrote: OK I get it. I reread the posts. I thought it was contextually obvious that I was speaking about ASL, but Schamtoo thought I was talking about the foreigner scene casting, which I quite honestly do not watch (sorry, I'm sure you guys do good work).
And perhaps Waldo has no idea what exclusive actually means, (it doesn't mean official or production value) but I would suppose that depends on Waldo to clarify.
Neither of us know what exclusivity means in context of a Korean owned business providing a service they have now cancelled. It would appear that they are cancelling the english stream and assuming they employ Tasteless and Artosis as well as the couple other foreign community casters who get paid for their work they are going to be making them cast games other than Broodwar.
With all of this being said I will clarify that having ASL pay casters to provide a service was a good thing. If ASL will not allow anyone outside of Afreeca.tv to stream ASL tournaments and/or commentate and upload those VOD's this is bad. ASL being the premier tournament in existence new and existing viewers would be deprived of a non-Korean production.
This seems like a downward trajectory; ASL closed their Twitch a while ago, they have now shuttered the english production and ceased streaming on YouTube. I understand the business decision, but I would say that Twitch ASL games would reach thousands of viewers, as well as the thousands of viewers on YouTube. Between those numbers opportunity is present for growth and expansion however minuscule by comparison to the greater esports ecosystem.
I'm not complaining or casting aspersions to be simply negative. At the end of the day we still get to watch ASL. I'm just disappointed and I don't believe it's even a good decision to begin with. If Broodwar is truly niche outside of Korea and it's simply not profitable to employ foreign casters or provide a foreign production then so be it. I will say in closing that even if this is true foreign producers in whatever capacity they exist currently in my opinion would be punished because community casting however passionate would have less incentive and an even harder time breaking even or turning a profit. If that's even a thing. I'll put it this way - I would rather watch a restream with an english chat or a commentated VOD on youtube then sit through a Korean broadcast on a Korean website, and it's not because I don't like Korean commentary or the Korean website.
On March 11 2021 14:45 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:ASL contracted english speaking commentators to broadcast their content to a foreign audience. I believe that qualifies as exclusive.
No, that is not exclusive no matter what you believe, that's just contracting an english speaking commentator. That is an English cast. It is not an exclusive English cast.
On March 11 2021 14:45 WaldosLonelyWife wrote:The confusion begins with you believing exclusivity=exclusion
That's exactly what exclusive means. When you say you find an exclusive English cast ideal, it means you find an English cast that exclude all other English casts ideal, so that one cast is the sole source of English cast. It's quite unbeleivable, I ask a simple question and get a load of blather in return. If you miswrote exclusive that would had been fine, as just an extraneous word that hold no meaning and can be omitted. but then you went ahead to say that ASL qualifies as having an exclusive English cast, which was never the case. But whatever, it's clear now you don't aim to communicate, only to obscurate.
Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
You show up in metrics, that is what matters. The Korean advertisers that see the number of people on the platform likely are not going to look to do at how big a % is foreigners who are useless.
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
Eh, its sort of a valid question if you think about it.
Advertisement middlemen are really smart these days and pay a lot of attention to the demographic of the viewer-base. Targeting ads at the right people is a metric.
What's more problematic is that Afreeca can't find a cost effective way to monetize their product to an international audience. Sure it won't bring them any huge returns but completely dismissing that market seems like a huge mistake.
I think this whole situation is also due to a language and culture barrier.
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
Eh, its sort of a valid question if you think about it.
Advertisement middlemen are really smart these days and pay a lot of attention to the demographic of the viewer-base. Targeting ads at the right people is a metric.
What's more problematic is that Afreeca can't find a cost effective way to monetize their product to an international audience. Sure it won't bring them any huge returns but completely dismissing that market seems like a huge mistake.
I think this whole situation is also due to a language and culture barrier.
This is ignoring the cost of providing the service. We would somehow need to generate enough value to pay Tastosis as well as all of the costs that go into providing the cast - camera and audio crew, set construction, make-up, bandwidth, etc. Furthermore, I read during the Gillette-sponsored tournament (I forget which one it was now) that the advertiser is Gillette of Korea, meaning that even if you go to the grocery store and buy a hundred Gillette products, the Korean sponsor doesn't get any return. I imagine this is the situation for most of their advertisers and sponsors.
So, what would be the way to generate revenue? I guess there could be a subscription model for international users only, but I find it hard to believe that Afreeca simply made a "mistake" and don't have a team of financial and marketing specialists whose job is precisely determining the viability and profitability of various products and services. There would, of course, be an initial investment into a service of this nature, which in turn would require English-speaking customer service and other longterm expenses. This would also immediately alienate all of the international viewers who can't afford a subscription, who can't use the Afreeca platform consistently, etc. To assume that they didn't consider how to profit from English casts is horribly naive IMO - especially given the fact that Artosis said that him and Tasteless have been trying to negotiate with Afreeca for a while, presumably months. Do you think that Afreeca just waved their proverbial hand at them without considering their arguments (or without having already considered them)?
No organization of such size would make a decision to stop a service they already provide arbitrarily. The more I consider the overall situation, the more I get the impression that Afreeca has provided 10 seasons of English entertainment at a loss, and after going over the numbers, decided it wasn't worth it. Not that one day they just up and said, "Hey, let's just make a bunch of English-speaking chobos on the internet upset!"
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
Eh, its sort of a valid question if you think about it.
Advertisement middlemen are really smart these days and pay a lot of attention to the demographic of the viewer-base. Targeting ads at the right people is a metric.
What's more problematic is that Afreeca can't find a cost effective way to monetize their product to an international audience. Sure it won't bring them any huge returns but completely dismissing that market seems like a huge mistake.
I think this whole situation is also due to a language and culture barrier.
This is ignoring the cost of providing the service. We would somehow need to generate enough value to pay Tastosis as well as all of the costs that go into providing the cast - camera and audio crew, set construction, make-up, bandwidth, etc. Furthermore, I read during the Gillette-sponsored tournament (I forget which one it was now) that the advertiser is Gillette of Korea, meaning that even if you go to the grocery store and buy a hundred Gillette products, the Korean sponsor doesn't get any return. I imagine this is the situation for most of their advertisers and sponsors.
So, what would be the way to generate revenue? I guess there could be a subscription model for international users only, but I find it hard to believe that Afreeca simply made a "mistake" and don't have a team of financial and marketing specialists whose job is precisely determining the viability and profitability of various products and services. There would, of course, be an initial investment into a service of this nature, which in turn would require English-speaking customer service and other longterm expenses. This would also immediately alienate all of the international viewers who can't afford a subscription, who can't use the Afreeca platform consistently, etc. To assume that they didn't consider how to profit from English casts is horribly naive IMO - especially given the fact that Artosis said that him and Tasteless have been trying to negotiate with Afreeca for a while, presumably months. Do you think that Afreeca just waved their proverbial hand at them without considering their arguments (or without having already considered them)?
No organization of such size would make a decision to stop a service they already provide arbitrarily. The more I consider the overall situation, the more I get the impression that Afreeca has provided 10 seasons of English entertainment at a loss, and after going over the numbers, decided it wasn't worth it. Not that one day they just up and said, "Hey, let's just make a bunch of English-speaking chobos on the internet upset!"
You're taking a pretty narrow view on the matter though.
You're assuming that ASL in English can only exist if Artosis and Tasteless are casting it.I beg to differ. Sure it might seem that way given how popular the casters are but in all reality ASL can be brought in English to an international audience at a pretty low cost too. So low that Afreeca might think to themselves: "Huh? Why bother"
The "Why bother?" is pretty disturbing if Afreeca considers themselves a competent online streaming platform. We live in the era where sharks live and breathe for the next 'hit'.
Imagine that in 2 years SC2 dies and SC1 has some crazy boom and a lot of popular streamers start playing it and the scene takes off. Sure, rather unlikely but there's still a possibility in there.
In that case imagine being Afreeca and losing an incredible opportunity to instill yourself as a leading organizer in that space. Pretty huge blunder to make when the cost of just maintaining at least a footprint in the scene could be as cheap as hiring some rando's to cast on some global streaming platform and then take a cut off of the profits, if any.
This part I have huge trouble understanding. The part about people being "upset" because they've lost their favorite casting duo for an event is expected and find rather meh, especially in today's age.
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
Eh, its sort of a valid question if you think about it.
Advertisement middlemen are really smart these days and pay a lot of attention to the demographic of the viewer-base. Targeting ads at the right people is a metric.
What's more problematic is that Afreeca can't find a cost effective way to monetize their product to an international audience. Sure it won't bring them any huge returns but completely dismissing that market seems like a huge mistake.
I think this whole situation is also due to a language and culture barrier.
This is ignoring the cost of providing the service. We would somehow need to generate enough value to pay Tastosis as well as all of the costs that go into providing the cast - camera and audio crew, set construction, make-up, bandwidth, etc. Furthermore, I read during the Gillette-sponsored tournament (I forget which one it was now) that the advertiser is Gillette of Korea, meaning that even if you go to the grocery store and buy a hundred Gillette products, the Korean sponsor doesn't get any return. I imagine this is the situation for most of their advertisers and sponsors.
So, what would be the way to generate revenue? I guess there could be a subscription model for international users only, but I find it hard to believe that Afreeca simply made a "mistake" and don't have a team of financial and marketing specialists whose job is precisely determining the viability and profitability of various products and services. There would, of course, be an initial investment into a service of this nature, which in turn would require English-speaking customer service and other longterm expenses. This would also immediately alienate all of the international viewers who can't afford a subscription, who can't use the Afreeca platform consistently, etc. To assume that they didn't consider how to profit from English casts is horribly naive IMO - especially given the fact that Artosis said that him and Tasteless have been trying to negotiate with Afreeca for a while, presumably months. Do you think that Afreeca just waved their proverbial hand at them without considering their arguments (or without having already considered them)?
No organization of such size would make a decision to stop a service they already provide arbitrarily. The more I consider the overall situation, the more I get the impression that Afreeca has provided 10 seasons of English entertainment at a loss, and after going over the numbers, decided it wasn't worth it. Not that one day they just up and said, "Hey, let's just make a bunch of English-speaking chobos on the internet upset!"
You're taking a pretty narrow view on the matter though.
You're assuming that ASL in English can only exist if Artosis and Tasteless are casting it.I beg to differ. Sure it might seem that way given how popular the casters are but in all reality ASL can be brought in English to an international audience at a pretty low cost too. So low that Afreeca might think to themselves: "Huh? Why bother"
The "Why bother?" is pretty disturbing if Afreeca considers themselves a competent online streaming platform. We live in the era where sharks live and breathe for the next 'hit'.
Imagine that in 2 years SC2 dies and SC1 has some crazy boom and a lot of popular streamers start playing it and the scene takes off. Sure, rather unlikely but there's still a possibility in there.
In that case imagine being Afreeca and losing an incredible opportunity to instill yourself as a leading organizer in that space. Pretty huge blunder to make when the cost of just maintaining at least a footprint in the scene could be as cheap as hiring some rando's to cast on some global streaming platform and then take a cut off of the profits, if any.
This part I have huge trouble understanding. The part about people being "upset" because they've lost their favorite casting duo for an event is expected and find rather meh, especially in today's age.
Well, they are offering a clean feed, so anyone who wants to cast it for free can do so - while still supporting Afreeca's services. That seems to be a decent compromise for them financially and in terms of providing something to the foreign community?
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
Eh, its sort of a valid question if you think about it.
Advertisement middlemen are really smart these days and pay a lot of attention to the demographic of the viewer-base. Targeting ads at the right people is a metric.
What's more problematic is that Afreeca can't find a cost effective way to monetize their product to an international audience. Sure it won't bring them any huge returns but completely dismissing that market seems like a huge mistake.
I think this whole situation is also due to a language and culture barrier.
This is ignoring the cost of providing the service. We would somehow need to generate enough value to pay Tastosis as well as all of the costs that go into providing the cast - camera and audio crew, set construction, make-up, bandwidth, etc. Furthermore, I read during the Gillette-sponsored tournament (I forget which one it was now) that the advertiser is Gillette of Korea, meaning that even if you go to the grocery store and buy a hundred Gillette products, the Korean sponsor doesn't get any return. I imagine this is the situation for most of their advertisers and sponsors.
So, what would be the way to generate revenue? I guess there could be a subscription model for international users only, but I find it hard to believe that Afreeca simply made a "mistake" and don't have a team of financial and marketing specialists whose job is precisely determining the viability and profitability of various products and services. There would, of course, be an initial investment into a service of this nature, which in turn would require English-speaking customer service and other longterm expenses. This would also immediately alienate all of the international viewers who can't afford a subscription, who can't use the Afreeca platform consistently, etc. To assume that they didn't consider how to profit from English casts is horribly naive IMO - especially given the fact that Artosis said that him and Tasteless have been trying to negotiate with Afreeca for a while, presumably months. Do you think that Afreeca just waved their proverbial hand at them without considering their arguments (or without having already considered them)?
No organization of such size would make a decision to stop a service they already provide arbitrarily. The more I consider the overall situation, the more I get the impression that Afreeca has provided 10 seasons of English entertainment at a loss, and after going over the numbers, decided it wasn't worth it. Not that one day they just up and said, "Hey, let's just make a bunch of English-speaking chobos on the internet upset!"
You're taking a pretty narrow view on the matter though.
You're assuming that ASL in English can only exist if Artosis and Tasteless are casting it.I beg to differ. Sure it might seem that way given how popular the casters are but in all reality ASL can be brought in English to an international audience at a pretty low cost too. So low that Afreeca might think to themselves: "Huh? Why bother"
The "Why bother?" is pretty disturbing if Afreeca considers themselves a competent online streaming platform. We live in the era where sharks live and breathe for the next 'hit'.
Imagine that in 2 years SC2 dies and SC1 has some crazy boom and a lot of popular streamers start playing it and the scene takes off. Sure, rather unlikely but there's still a possibility in there.
In that case imagine being Afreeca and losing an incredible opportunity to instill yourself as a leading organizer in that space. Pretty huge blunder to make when the cost of just maintaining at least a footprint in the scene could be as cheap as hiring some rando's to cast on some global streaming platform and then take a cut off of the profits, if any.
This part I have huge trouble understanding. The part about people being "upset" because they've lost their favorite casting duo for an event is expected and find rather meh, especially in today's age.
Well, they are offering a clean feed, so anyone who wants to cast it for free can do so - while still supporting Afreeca's services. That seems to be a decent compromise for them financially and in terms of providing something to the foreign community?
In a vacuum, yes, that would be the case but history showed us that English-language viewers do not watch Afreeca even if there are exclusive events that otherwise would garner appreciable viewership on something like youtube.
Having this data and still not allowing for an alternative way to watch their events is self-sabotage in the year of 2021.
On March 12 2021 06:32 Gorsameth wrote: You show up in metrics, that is what matters. The Korean advertisers that see the number of people on the platform likely are not going to look to do at how big a % is foreigners who are useless.
Advertisers might simply ask Afreeca, what is the Korean viewership numbers. Assuming Afreeca is honest (good business sense), they would not be be including foreign viewership.
Alternatively, Afreeca might quote numbers to attract advertisers but once again, Afreeca would not include foreign viewership numbers, assuming they are an ethical company (which I am sure they are).
While metrics is a big part of the story, I do think advertisers would be interested in other data such as demographic and location.
I do take your point however that the adverts display throughout the entire Afreeca platform. So, some advertisers may make decisions based on simply the total viewership figure which I assume Afrreeca makes public.
Seems like we're going backwards in time to the konadora/livestream.com times. Sad to hear this but as long as the tournaments themselves can continue, one can't really complain.
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
Eh, its sort of a valid question if you think about it.
Advertisement middlemen are really smart these days and pay a lot of attention to the demographic of the viewer-base. Targeting ads at the right people is a metric.
What's more problematic is that Afreeca can't find a cost effective way to monetize their product to an international audience. Sure it won't bring them any huge returns but completely dismissing that market seems like a huge mistake.
I think this whole situation is also due to a language and culture barrier.
This is ignoring the cost of providing the service. We would somehow need to generate enough value to pay Tastosis as well as all of the costs that go into providing the cast - camera and audio crew, set construction, make-up, bandwidth, etc. Furthermore, I read during the Gillette-sponsored tournament (I forget which one it was now) that the advertiser is Gillette of Korea, meaning that even if you go to the grocery store and buy a hundred Gillette products, the Korean sponsor doesn't get any return. I imagine this is the situation for most of their advertisers and sponsors.
So, what would be the way to generate revenue? I guess there could be a subscription model for international users only, but I find it hard to believe that Afreeca simply made a "mistake" and don't have a team of financial and marketing specialists whose job is precisely determining the viability and profitability of various products and services. There would, of course, be an initial investment into a service of this nature, which in turn would require English-speaking customer service and other longterm expenses. This would also immediately alienate all of the international viewers who can't afford a subscription, who can't use the Afreeca platform consistently, etc. To assume that they didn't consider how to profit from English casts is horribly naive IMO - especially given the fact that Artosis said that him and Tasteless have been trying to negotiate with Afreeca for a while, presumably months. Do you think that Afreeca just waved their proverbial hand at them without considering their arguments (or without having already considered them)?
No organization of such size would make a decision to stop a service they already provide arbitrarily. The more I consider the overall situation, the more I get the impression that Afreeca has provided 10 seasons of English entertainment at a loss, and after going over the numbers, decided it wasn't worth it. Not that one day they just up and said, "Hey, let's just make a bunch of English-speaking chobos on the internet upset!"
You're taking a pretty narrow view on the matter though.
You're assuming that ASL in English can only exist if Artosis and Tasteless are casting it.I beg to differ. Sure it might seem that way given how popular the casters are but in all reality ASL can be brought in English to an international audience at a pretty low cost too. So low that Afreeca might think to themselves: "Huh? Why bother"
The "Why bother?" is pretty disturbing if Afreeca considers themselves a competent online streaming platform. We live in the era where sharks live and breathe for the next 'hit'.
Imagine that in 2 years SC2 dies and SC1 has some crazy boom and a lot of popular streamers start playing it and the scene takes off. Sure, rather unlikely but there's still a possibility in there.
In that case imagine being Afreeca and losing an incredible opportunity to instill yourself as a leading organizer in that space. Pretty huge blunder to make when the cost of just maintaining at least a footprint in the scene could be as cheap as hiring some rando's to cast on some global streaming platform and then take a cut off of the profits, if any.
This part I have huge trouble understanding. The part about people being "upset" because they've lost their favorite casting duo for an event is expected and find rather meh, especially in today's age.
Well, they are offering a clean feed, so anyone who wants to cast it for free can do so - while still supporting Afreeca's services. That seems to be a decent compromise for them financially and in terms of providing something to the foreign community?
In a vacuum, yes, that would be the case but history showed us that English-language viewers do not watch Afreeca even if there are exclusive events that otherwise would garner appreciable viewership on something like youtube.
Having this data and still not allowing for an alternative way to watch their events is self-sabotage in the year of 2021.
I do agree that there is the potential for this to be harmful in the long run if there were to be some Brood War (2nd? 3rd?) renaissance, but that's just hypothetical and while the inevitable collapse of SC2 is certainly a promising catalyst, I think the fact that RM is practically abandonware at this point makes it seem unlikely. We are in an incontrovertible ebb in BW's history, just as we were 10 years ago. The scene contracts, personalities, players, and viewers are lost. It is practically the natural order of things at this point.
As it stands, I find it hard to estimate this as anything but a financially sound move. Bird in hand vs two in the bush or whatever. Supporting an English cast is taxing for them right now. And, if some BW boom does happen, I don't see why it'd be impossible for them to just jump back on the bandwagon while still being the premier provider of BW content in the world. No need to throw money away in the present while praying for a brighter tomorrow when the forecast is rain.
On March 12 2021 06:15 Zekkezgz wrote: Spanish casters Deathfate and Jan cast from their home setup voicing over the Korean stream. And they do a hell of a good job. But I can't understand the full of Afreeca's decision. Their website is basically only for Koreans. It lags like hell, it stalls, it crashed 13 times, for me, during the wildcard stream the other day. And I had downset the quality to 720... So, why get less exposure in the "western" world by forbidding the streamers on YouTube? I'm only going to speak shit about their website, and I'm not going to recommend it to anyone. So, in my mind, it's a terrible commercial decision. The impact of hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube is exponential; as is Twitch. They are trying to compete against rivals that aren't in their same league. Hell, not even their same sport...
Because they want people to be on their platform.
Having 100k people watch on Youtube does absolutely nothing for the company, the western exposure is meaningless to them as a Korean company, the Korean advertisements do nothing. By forcing you to watch on Afreeca you contribute to the number of viewers on their platform, which is what this is all about.
but how forcing foreigners watching it on Afreeca gonna help them? it's still showing Korean adds on Afreeca
...? you use the platform???? how is that even a question jesus lmao.
Eh, its sort of a valid question if you think about it.
Advertisement middlemen are really smart these days and pay a lot of attention to the demographic of the viewer-base. Targeting ads at the right people is a metric.
What's more problematic is that Afreeca can't find a cost effective way to monetize their product to an international audience. Sure it won't bring them any huge returns but completely dismissing that market seems like a huge mistake.
I think this whole situation is also due to a language and culture barrier.
This is ignoring the cost of providing the service. We would somehow need to generate enough value to pay Tastosis as well as all of the costs that go into providing the cast - camera and audio crew, set construction, make-up, bandwidth, etc. Furthermore, I read during the Gillette-sponsored tournament (I forget which one it was now) that the advertiser is Gillette of Korea, meaning that even if you go to the grocery store and buy a hundred Gillette products, the Korean sponsor doesn't get any return. I imagine this is the situation for most of their advertisers and sponsors.
So, what would be the way to generate revenue? I guess there could be a subscription model for international users only, but I find it hard to believe that Afreeca simply made a "mistake" and don't have a team of financial and marketing specialists whose job is precisely determining the viability and profitability of various products and services. There would, of course, be an initial investment into a service of this nature, which in turn would require English-speaking customer service and other longterm expenses. This would also immediately alienate all of the international viewers who can't afford a subscription, who can't use the Afreeca platform consistently, etc. To assume that they didn't consider how to profit from English casts is horribly naive IMO - especially given the fact that Artosis said that him and Tasteless have been trying to negotiate with Afreeca for a while, presumably months. Do you think that Afreeca just waved their proverbial hand at them without considering their arguments (or without having already considered them)?
No organization of such size would make a decision to stop a service they already provide arbitrarily. The more I consider the overall situation, the more I get the impression that Afreeca has provided 10 seasons of English entertainment at a loss, and after going over the numbers, decided it wasn't worth it. Not that one day they just up and said, "Hey, let's just make a bunch of English-speaking chobos on the internet upset!"
You're taking a pretty narrow view on the matter though.
You're assuming that ASL in English can only exist if Artosis and Tasteless are casting it.I beg to differ. Sure it might seem that way given how popular the casters are but in all reality ASL can be brought in English to an international audience at a pretty low cost too. So low that Afreeca might think to themselves: "Huh? Why bother"
The "Why bother?" is pretty disturbing if Afreeca considers themselves a competent online streaming platform. We live in the era where sharks live and breathe for the next 'hit'.
Imagine that in 2 years SC2 dies and SC1 has some crazy boom and a lot of popular streamers start playing it and the scene takes off. Sure, rather unlikely but there's still a possibility in there.
In that case imagine being Afreeca and losing an incredible opportunity to instill yourself as a leading organizer in that space. Pretty huge blunder to make when the cost of just maintaining at least a footprint in the scene could be as cheap as hiring some rando's to cast on some global streaming platform and then take a cut off of the profits, if any.
This part I have huge trouble understanding. The part about people being "upset" because they've lost their favorite casting duo for an event is expected and find rather meh, especially in today's age.
Well, they are offering a clean feed, so anyone who wants to cast it for free can do so - while still supporting Afreeca's services. That seems to be a decent compromise for them financially and in terms of providing something to the foreign community?
"compromise for them financially" What? They couldnt figure out how to get anything out of an english cast, so an third party streamer is supposed to get them anywhere?
If I understood you correctly, my hypothesis is that it is precisely because their English casts didn't generate a justifiable revenue that they have cut them, which results in a net benefit to their bottom line, while still providing an incredibly cheap-to-produce resource for those who may want to pick up the mantle - while still utilizing their services and adding to their overall numbers. That's what I meant by compromise, not that EnglishCaster4561 will somehow bring them a sizeable profit.
That's a shame. Just found this news when I was looking for dates/times for the new season. I hope there's some updates about Tastosis' plans to cast it, soon. And it would be even better if it was live as a simulcast to the Korean stream.
I also had days where afreecatv was unusable for me and barely even opened for me. So simulcast and then vods (that you can download) would probably the best, since it has to be on that platform.
Can someone provide a link to the stream where Arti explains this? He apparently found out about the announcement whilst live streaming; but I can't find it...
On March 14 2021 21:11 Zekkezgz wrote: Can someone provide a link to the stream where Arti explains this? He apparently found out about the announcement whilst live streaming; but I can't find it...
I read his posts (Jealous) and skim the others. Better to assume good intent and be disappointed than always assume the worst anyhow.
Not surprised but still a bit disappointed by the lack of communication from Afreeca. Not that I blame them for focusing on the parts of their business they deem worthwhile.
Was just looking forward to ASL for Tastosis casting but I will find other ways to enjoy.
Edit: for clarity I submitted a qurery via the link in OP regarding casting and more specific rules and limitations.
There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
There's still tons of excuse. I love Scan and Nyoken but they're not as entertaining nor will they have as high level production as the original broadcast. Analysis isn't everything.
Note: I'll still watch, but to say theres no excuse seems silly to me.
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
There's still tons of excuse. I love Scan and Nyoken but they're not as entertaining nor will they have as high level production as the original broadcast. Analysis isn't everything.
Note: I'll still watch, but to say theres no excuse seems silly to me.
If the main problem was the presence of English cast, that problem is solved.
If the main problem is that it's anyone but Artosis/Tasteless, that's a problem in and of itself IMO. It should be about the players and the game, the caster is just the translator of the screen into your brain, so to speak. There are of course casters with bad voices or bad knowledge or ones that don't crack as many people-pleasing jokes, ones that are less likely to become cult of personality idols, I get that. But ultimately, it should be about the games and their interpretability for the viewer IMO. In that regard, I expect Scan/Nyoken to bring some of the highest level content we have possibly ever seen as English-speakers. All bells and whistles aside, of course.
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
There's still tons of excuse. I love Scan and Nyoken but they're not as entertaining nor will they have as high level production as the original broadcast. Analysis isn't everything.
Note: I'll still watch, but to say theres no excuse seems silly to me.
If the main problem was the presence of English cast, that problem is solved.
If the main problem is that it's anyone but Artosis/Tasteless, that's a problem in and of itself IMO. It should be about the players and the game, the caster is just the translator of the screen into your brain, so to speak. There are of course casters with bad voices or bad knowledge or ones that don't crack as many people-pleasing jokes, ones that are less likely to become cult of personality idols, I get that. But ultimately, it should be about the games and their interpretability for the viewer IMO. In that regard, I expect Scan/Nyoken to bring some of the highest level content we have possibly ever seen as English-speakers. All bells and whistles aside, of course.
"It should be" is directly in line with what you want with your content. Many others put "it should be" in front of many different things. I watch korean broadcasts a lot, but the click rate for me of korean only broadcasts is lower because sometimes I like to just turn my brain off a little while watching.
It goes back to what I was talking about with that other poster. There's a lot of things that people prefer, the more they are lined up the better. Does english commentary matter if they constantly miss the action while observing? Does it matter if they bring up all the wrong points? What if their mics aren't all that great or horribly balanced? What if the quality of the stream is awful? What if they dont drive a good narrative, have good stats, or only talk about the game in front of them? Do they mention the same opener 80 times in a row, or do they fill the air with some quips and funny things?
the more things you check off on this list, the more people will watch. In-depth analysis and timings are great, but great commentators know when to bring in the analysis and when to let peoples brains rest up a little.
I'm happy to have english commentary, and i think community casters filling that void is great. but again, if the objective is reaching a broader audience its going to be a lot more than just "It should be about the games" because i bet i could show some previous ASL matches, act like it's CPL, and get 100 comments about "wow these guys sux"
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
There's still tons of excuse. I love Scan and Nyoken but they're not as entertaining nor will they have as high level production as the original broadcast. Analysis isn't everything.
Note: I'll still watch, but to say theres no excuse seems silly to me.
If the main problem was the presence of English cast, that problem is solved.
If the main problem is that it's anyone but Artosis/Tasteless, that's a problem in and of itself IMO. It should be about the players and the game, the caster is just the translator of the screen into your brain, so to speak. There are of course casters with bad voices or bad knowledge or ones that don't crack as many people-pleasing jokes, ones that are less likely to become cult of personality idols, I get that. But ultimately, it should be about the games and their interpretability for the viewer IMO. In that regard, I expect Scan/Nyoken to bring some of the highest level content we have possibly ever seen as English-speakers. All bells and whistles aside, of course.
"It should be" is directly in line with what you want with your content. Many others put "it should be" in front of many different things. I watch korean broadcasts a lot, but the click rate for me of korean only broadcasts is lower because sometimes I like to just turn my brain off a little while watching.
It goes back to what I was talking about with that other poster. There's a lot of things that people prefer, the more they are lined up the better. Does english commentary matter if they constantly miss the action while observing? Does it matter if they bring up all the wrong points? What if their mics aren't all that great or horribly balanced? What if the quality of the stream is awful? What if they dont drive a good narrative, have good stats, or only talk about the game in front of them? Do they mention the same opener 80 times in a row, or do they fill the air with some quips and funny things?
the more things you check off on this list, the more people will watch. In-depth analysis and timings are great, but great commentators know when to bring in the analysis and when to let peoples brains rest up a little.
I'm happy to have english commentary, and i think community casters filling that void is great. but again, if the objective is reaching a broader audience its going to be a lot more than just "It should be about the games" because i bet i could show some previous ASL matches, act like it's CPL, and get 100 comments about "wow these guys sux"
The broader audience is the SC2 fanbase and Fortnite fans. So aiming for that kind of thing is a net negative anyways. If you value your brain cells in any kind of way that is.
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
There's still tons of excuse. I love Scan and Nyoken but they're not as entertaining nor will they have as high level production as the original broadcast. Analysis isn't everything.
Note: I'll still watch, but to say theres no excuse seems silly to me.
If the main problem was the presence of English cast, that problem is solved.
If the main problem is that it's anyone but Artosis/Tasteless, that's a problem in and of itself IMO. It should be about the players and the game, the caster is just the translator of the screen into your brain, so to speak. There are of course casters with bad voices or bad knowledge or ones that don't crack as many people-pleasing jokes, ones that are less likely to become cult of personality idols, I get that. But ultimately, it should be about the games and their interpretability for the viewer IMO. In that regard, I expect Scan/Nyoken to bring some of the highest level content we have possibly ever seen as English-speakers. All bells and whistles aside, of course.
"It should be" is directly in line with what you want with your content. Many others put "it should be" in front of many different things. I watch korean broadcasts a lot, but the click rate for me of korean only broadcasts is lower because sometimes I like to just turn my brain off a little while watching.
It goes back to what I was talking about with that other poster. There's a lot of things that people prefer, the more they are lined up the better. Does english commentary matter if they constantly miss the action while observing? Does it matter if they bring up all the wrong points? What if their mics aren't all that great or horribly balanced? What if the quality of the stream is awful? What if they dont drive a good narrative, have good stats, or only talk about the game in front of them? Do they mention the same opener 80 times in a row, or do they fill the air with some quips and funny things?
the more things you check off on this list, the more people will watch. In-depth analysis and timings are great, but great commentators know when to bring in the analysis and when to let peoples brains rest up a little.
I'm happy to have english commentary, and i think community casters filling that void is great. but again, if the objective is reaching a broader audience its going to be a lot more than just "It should be about the games" because i bet i could show some previous ASL matches, act like it's CPL, and get 100 comments about "wow these guys sux"
The broader audience is the SC2 fanbase and Fortnite fans. So aiming for that kind of thing is a net negative anyways. If you value your brain cells in any kind of way that is.
Alternatively if you know enough about BW that you can follow the Korean commentary, why not have an English cast that’s vaguely accessible?
As Schamtoo points out, a perfect caster to appeal to all audiences is basically an impossibility.
Personally am happy with the Nyoken/Scan combo, the former’s casting I’ve enjoyed when I have experienced it and iirc he’s pretty solid at the game, and Scan is good enough to be playing ASL so should have lots of good insight to offer.
On March 15 2021 17:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: There is a poll on the TL.net homepage and currently 30% say they will stop watching ASL altogether, also 41% say they never watched it in the first place - they are probably SC2 people.So if you didn't vote already check it out.I voted for Korean commentary personally.
Now that there is an alternate English cast with higher level analysis, there really is no excuse.
There's still tons of excuse. I love Scan and Nyoken but they're not as entertaining nor will they have as high level production as the original broadcast. Analysis isn't everything.
Note: I'll still watch, but to say theres no excuse seems silly to me.
If the main problem was the presence of English cast, that problem is solved.
If the main problem is that it's anyone but Artosis/Tasteless, that's a problem in and of itself IMO. It should be about the players and the game, the caster is just the translator of the screen into your brain, so to speak. There are of course casters with bad voices or bad knowledge or ones that don't crack as many people-pleasing jokes, ones that are less likely to become cult of personality idols, I get that. But ultimately, it should be about the games and their interpretability for the viewer IMO. In that regard, I expect Scan/Nyoken to bring some of the highest level content we have possibly ever seen as English-speakers. All bells and whistles aside, of course.
"It should be" is directly in line with what you want with your content. Many others put "it should be" in front of many different things. I watch korean broadcasts a lot, but the click rate for me of korean only broadcasts is lower because sometimes I like to just turn my brain off a little while watching.
It goes back to what I was talking about with that other poster. There's a lot of things that people prefer, the more they are lined up the better. Does english commentary matter if they constantly miss the action while observing? Does it matter if they bring up all the wrong points? What if their mics aren't all that great or horribly balanced? What if the quality of the stream is awful? What if they dont drive a good narrative, have good stats, or only talk about the game in front of them? Do they mention the same opener 80 times in a row, or do they fill the air with some quips and funny things?
the more things you check off on this list, the more people will watch. In-depth analysis and timings are great, but great commentators know when to bring in the analysis and when to let peoples brains rest up a little.
I'm happy to have english commentary, and i think community casters filling that void is great. but again, if the objective is reaching a broader audience its going to be a lot more than just "It should be about the games" because i bet i could show some previous ASL matches, act like it's CPL, and get 100 comments about "wow these guys sux"
The broader audience is the SC2 fanbase and Fortnite fans. So aiming for that kind of thing is a net negative anyways. If you value your brain cells in any kind of way that is.
Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
Takes one person to disagree to make that "fact" false. And I am bold enough to say I disagree in the face of this thread filled with utterly fanatic tastosis fans.
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
You're a fucking moron and I hope no one else takes this bait.
PS: Schamtoo I will respond to you when I have more time than to write a single line
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
Very bold claims.
)))
Yeah, but... Ok. The two best casters of SC. Give me their names. As a team, and as what they have done for the community.
What ever, I have just been called a fucking moron for thinking they, as a couple, are the best.
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
Very bold claims.
)))
Yeah, but... Ok. The two best casters of SC. Give me their names. As a team, and as what they have done for the community.
What ever, I have just been called a fucking moron for thinking they, as a couple, are the best.
You were called a moron for thinking that your opinion is fact.
Most popular I don’t think anyone can really argue against Tastosis.
But give this duo a chance man. Can’t remember when it was or for what but I first got exposed to Nyoken when he was casting with Artosis, checked out a bunch of him subsequently. I’m familiar with Scan more because he posts here but he’s done some insightful (and amusing) coaching sessions, again with that Artosis fellow.
Not that it should matter really, but I highly, highly doubt that Artosis is sitting there thinking ‘it’s not me so screw the ASL I hope my fans don’t watch’
On March 16 2021 09:30 WombaT wrote: The best, perhaps to some.
Most popular I don’t think anyone can really argue against Tastosis.
But give this duo a chance man. Can’t remember when it was or for what but I first got exposed to Nyoken when he was casting with Artosis, checked out a bunch of him subsequently. I’m familiar with Scan more because he posts here but he’s done some insightful (and amusing) coaching sessions, again with that Artosis fellow.
Not that it should matter really, but I highly, highly doubt that Artosis is sitting there thinking ‘it’s not me so screw the ASL I hope my fans don’t watch’
Most popular would still be MBC/OGN casters because they were literally on TV and in front of thousands of people live in some of the biggest eSports events in the 00s.
Most popular English casters? Probably. "Best"? Please.
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
Very bold claims.
)))
Yeah, but... Ok. The two best casters of SC. Give me their names. As a team, and as what they have done for the community.
What ever, I have just been called a fucking moron for thinking they, as a couple, are the best.
You were called a moron for thinking that your opinion is fact.
How about Kim Carrier? TheMarine? Etc.
Do they cast together? Are they considered by the vast majority as the best SCBW casters? Given the choice of them over Tastosis, who would the majority choose?
Anyway. Your insult still stands. You can continue calling morons to those who don't think as yourself...
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
Very bold claims.
)))
Yeah, but... Ok. The two best casters of SC. Give me their names. As a team, and as what they have done for the community.
What ever, I have just been called a fucking moron for thinking they, as a couple, are the best.
You were called a moron for thinking that your opinion is fact.
How about Kim Carrier? TheMarine? Etc.
Do they cast together? Are they considered by the vast majority as the best SCBW casters? Given the choice of them over Tastosis, who would the majority choose?
Anyway. Your insult still stands. You can continue calling morons to those who don't think as yourself...
They (or others like them from the professional KeSPA MBC/OGN era) are most likely popularly viewed as the best since they are Korean casters for the Korean demographic which makes up the vast majority of BW viewership throughout its entire history. English casting and its audience is barely a sliver of the BW population whole. You do realize this, right? Maybe if you specified "Most popular English casters for Brood War in the late- and post-KeSPA era" then I wouldn't have any room for argument, but your initial statement is incredibly myopic at best.
Yes my insult still stands. I will continue to call people morons who present their opinion, as limited in understanding as it appears to be, as fact. You simply know nothing about anything. You wanted to come into this thread and try to present something as fact when the reality is that is just how you feel on the basis of subjective criteria which are completely ignorant of the history of BW. But you don't care. Sorry that I hurt your feelings by presenting the obvious truth, namely that your fallacious appeal to popularity was fallacious even by definition.
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
You're a fucking moron and I hope no one else takes this bait.
PS: Schamtoo I will respond to you when I have more time than to write a single line
That bold and underlined part really was unnecessary. I can see his point if he really liked the Tastosis duet.
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
You're a fucking moron and I hope no one else takes this bait.
PS: Schamtoo I will respond to you when I have more time than to write a single line
That bold and underlined part really was unnecessary. I can see his point if he really liked the Tastosis duet.
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
Takes one person to disagree to make that "fact" false. And I am bold enough to say I disagree in the face of this thread filled with utterly fanatic tastosis fans.
I agree that the ones blaming Afreeca are in the wrong, but that's what happens when people are upset and have a lack of knowledge of the situation. You and Jealous don't have to go overboard with the insults just because some of them are perhaps not thinking through what they are writing? Doesn't mean they are worthless. Maybe it means they need some guiding and what better people to guide them than honourable and experienced members as yourself?
We should be happy about anyone showing interest in this game, considering the status of things. That tastosis have brought so many new people to BW is great AND is a testament to their skills as commentators.
People going on about how Tastosis are the most popular - of course they're the most popular, they're essentially the only major BW casters that exist and they're the only ones who have ever really been given a chance in the community in the big leagues since they're the only ones living in Korea and have done for a very long time.
People need to give other casters a chance, because at the end of the day there's lots of community casters and none of them are ever going to get any better if you don't even give them the chance to try.
I agree Qikz that part of what makes tastosis popular is their celebrity status within e-sports. Popularity breeds more popularity. Part of that has to do with the very human need of wanting to take part in events that you are sharing with as big of group of others as possible.
But it has to be said that part of what makes tastosis popular is their abilities as commentators. Tastosis has a very personal way of commentating. They are themselves, you are getting the real thing and not just some rehearsed version of what a commentator is supposed to be. You feel like you are hanging out with some cool, funny and smart friends watching their stream. Of course, they are (most likely) not your actual friends, but it's still a good feeling and there is nothing wrong with that.
I agree that there are plenty of good community casters as well and i have earlier in this thread tried to shine a light on the foreign run events. At the end of the day, tastosis have brought a lot of people into BW. That means also to the benefit of foreigner leagues. However, what is going to really keep them watching BSL, RCG, STPL etc. are people like yourself Qikz. So i want to sincerely thank you for your great work.
Having said that, Artosis has now started a foreigner run event himself in The Ascension tournament, coming up this weekend. It's for NA only, but he has stated that he wants to run and cast leagues for europeans as well if lag issues is resolved. He also said just the other day that BW will be around...as long as he is alive. He said that with a bit of a tongue in cheek, given that the statement implies that he overestimates his own importance (which the guy actually can fall victim to given his huge confidence lol, however he usually balances it with a refreshingly sene of self-awareness as well).
My point is, BW is Artosis' biggest passion and it seems he want to do what it takes to not leave the scene or game behind. That is good news for all of us that he wants to focus more on the foreign scene. It brings more attention to the foreign players and more viewers to the aforementioned foreign leagues.
On March 16 2021 09:30 WombaT wrote: The best, perhaps to some.
Most popular I don’t think anyone can really argue against Tastosis.
But give this duo a chance man. Can’t remember when it was or for what but I first got exposed to Nyoken when he was casting with Artosis, checked out a bunch of him subsequently. I’m familiar with Scan more because he posts here but he’s done some insightful (and amusing) coaching sessions, again with that Artosis fellow.
Not that it should matter really, but I highly, highly doubt that Artosis is sitting there thinking ‘it’s not me so screw the ASL I hope my fans don’t watch’
Most popular would still be MBC/OGN casters because they were literally on TV and in front of thousands of people live in some of the biggest eSports events in the 00s.
Most popular English casters? Probably. "Best"? Please.
Yes, I thought it was implicit I was talking about English casters in a thread about an English cast for it.
No doubt there’s beloved casters in English in other competitive games that are huge these days too.
Tastosis do have a reasonably rare brand power that they can drag their fans to watch other games just because they’re casting, although I’m increasingly skeptical to how useful this is.
Smoothening the SC2 to BW pipeline is all well and good but if people don’t stick around and only engage with the existing community to complain that Tastosis aren’t casting you aren’t getting much of a boost there.
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
Very bold claims.
)))
Yeah, but... Ok. The two best casters of SC. Give me their names. As a team, and as what they have done for the community.
What ever, I have just been called a fucking moron for thinking they, as a couple, are the best.
You were called a moron for thinking that your opinion is fact.
How about Kim Carrier? TheMarine? Etc.
Do they cast together? Are they considered by the vast majority as the best SCBW casters? Given the choice of them over Tastosis, who would the majority choose?
Anyway. Your insult still stands. You can continue calling morons to those who don't think as yourself...
Lol you can always watch whatever they cast. I quess vast majority should do that as well. And maybe you the "vast majority" should do something about it, as it stands one korean pulled of a huge effort to get us English casting while this forum is flooded with single digit posters crying "boohoo, bad Afreeca ruining MY MY MY bw show".
Ok guys you talking same thing again and again. Someone will watch any english cast,someone only Tastosis,someone think Scan and Nyoken is better then Tastosis. Stop spaming the thread most people expect to read here something new from Artosis and Tasteless about possible patreon or whatever so we can know if there is a chance for Tastosis cast.
On March 16 2021 21:44 bracala wrote: Ok guys you talking same thing again and again. Someone will watch any english cast,someone only Tastosis,someone think Scan and Nyoken is better then Tastosis. Stop spaming the thread most people expect to read here something new from Artosis and Tasteless about possible patreon or whatever so we can know if there is a chance for Tastosis cast.
Yeah shame on people for discussing on a discussion forum.
On March 16 2021 05:26 Zekkezgz wrote: Ok, I'm happy I will be able to watch ASL in English with a sub optimum pair of casters. I'm enfuriated and sad because Afreeca got rid of the best. And that they are the best is not just my opinion; this is a known fact by the whole community.
Takes one person to disagree to make that "fact" false. And I am bold enough to say I disagree in the face of this thread filled with utterly fanatic tastosis fans.
I agree that the ones blaming Afreeca are in the wrong, but that's what happens when people are upset and have a lack of knowledge of the situation. You and Jealous don't have to go overboard with the insults just because some of them are perhaps not thinking through what they are writing? .
Perhaps it was me who went overboard by saying that you went overboard. Sorry about that.
But still, calling people utterly fanatic isn't excactly very emphathetic considering how much the tastosis stream meant to them. I also feel it's not correct to summarize this thread as being filled with fanatics. Instead you could see the value in how much attention towards BW tastosis has managed to generate. I feel like there is still this sense of snobbery towards tastosis going on amongst some of you guys. Like i said, a lot of the people that you are referring to has indeed not thought the matter of no tastosis stream the whole way through, but is being demeaning towards them helpful? I don't see how it is.
As much as I love Nyoken's superb game knowledge and passion for the game, Tastosis had something special in their synergy..... hope we see them casting again soon!
On March 17 2021 17:42 tanngard wrote: Perhaps it was me who went overboard by saying that you went overboard. Sorry about that.
But still, calling people utterly fanatic isn't excactly very emphathetic considering how much the tastosis stream meant to them. I also feel it's not correct to summarize this thread as being filled with fanatics. Instead you could see the value in how much attention towards BW tastosis has managed to generate. I feel like there is still this sense of snobbery towards tastosis going on amongst some of you guys. Like i said, a lot of the people that you are referring to has indeed not thought the matter of no tastosis stream the whole way through, but is being demeaning towards them helpful? I don't see how it is.
The poster in question had the gall to call Scan and Nyoken a "sub optimum" casting pair while they are jumping in to provide what is a free service to the community that the community clearly needs (as evidenced by this thread). I'm going to call out that shit behavior 10/10 times and if you're defending that rhetoric you can get bent too.
While losing the english casts will somewhat affect my overall experience in terms of hype and "community feel", I don't mind just watching with no commentary / korean commentary. I already watch streamers like Larva / Flash nearly everyday with no understanding of Korean anyway. Still, I can understand why people are upset, even if I'm not a huge tastosis fan.
Anyways, this was a great thread. Takes me back 10+ years on these forums with all the fanboyism and arguments.
On March 17 2021 17:42 tanngard wrote: Perhaps it was me who went overboard by saying that you went overboard. Sorry about that.
But still, calling people utterly fanatic isn't excactly very emphathetic considering how much the tastosis stream meant to them. I also feel it's not correct to summarize this thread as being filled with fanatics. Instead you could see the value in how much attention towards BW tastosis has managed to generate. I feel like there is still this sense of snobbery towards tastosis going on amongst some of you guys. Like i said, a lot of the people that you are referring to has indeed not thought the matter of no tastosis stream the whole way through, but is being demeaning towards them helpful? I don't see how it is.
What snobbery? I've written nothing here about Tastosis's cast itself.
The snobbery are those who call a community caster and someone who is actually playing in ASL as sub-optimal. Those same community casters who have actually interacted with the community for years. Those who say they would no longer watch BW if their favourite casters aren't being given money. Their interest in BW is a net zero value to me at best if they stop watching BW simply because their favourite caster isn't being paid to cast. Utterly fanatic is an accurate description for someone who decided that their favourite caster, is now factually the best, as decided by a community they have never interacted with before, notwithstanding the contradiction that opinion can never become fact anyhow.
On March 17 2021 17:42 tanngard wrote: Perhaps it was me who went overboard by saying that you went overboard. Sorry about that.
But still, calling people utterly fanatic isn't excactly very emphathetic considering how much the tastosis stream meant to them. I also feel it's not correct to summarize this thread as being filled with fanatics. Instead you could see the value in how much attention towards BW tastosis has managed to generate. I feel like there is still this sense of snobbery towards tastosis going on amongst some of you guys. Like i said, a lot of the people that you are referring to has indeed not thought the matter of no tastosis stream the whole way through, but is being demeaning towards them helpful? I don't see how it is.
one of them have literally just sent a toxic PM to another BW caster, saw it on discord. "fanatic" is a apt description for em.
On March 03 2021 12:01 Xenixx wrote: Been years since I've logged onto this but that's how strongly I feel about this move AfreecaTV. With this move you've completely lost my support, I'm not watching or supporting the ASL without an english cast. And I encourage every foreigner to do the same.
Where's the loyalty for not only the english speaking community but the casters? I've watched competitive SCBW for 20 years at this point.
Completely agree with this! And be vocal about it, let them know what a low move this was!
On March 17 2021 17:42 tanngard wrote: Perhaps it was me who went overboard by saying that you went overboard. Sorry about that.
But still, calling people utterly fanatic isn't excactly very emphathetic considering how much the tastosis stream meant to them. I also feel it's not correct to summarize this thread as being filled with fanatics. Instead you could see the value in how much attention towards BW tastosis has managed to generate. I feel like there is still this sense of snobbery towards tastosis going on amongst some of you guys. Like i said, a lot of the people that you are referring to has indeed not thought the matter of no tastosis stream the whole way through, but is being demeaning towards them helpful? I don't see how it is.
The poster in question had the gall to call Scan and Nyoken a "sub optimum" casting pair while they are jumping in to provide what is a free service to the community that the community clearly needs (as evidenced by this thread). I'm going to call out that shit behavior 10/10 times and if you're defending that rhetoric you can get bent too.
No, of course i don't defend that rhetoric. If you knew anything about me you would know that much.
Most people mean well. But on the internet, normal decency gets thrown out of the window because of various factors. This goes for everyone. I have been harsh in my use of words myself. I think you are great Jealous and that this community is lucky to have you.
I'm not saying that we should never use antagonistic rhetoric, because when someone chooses to word themselves in ways that is disrespectful, they might deserve the same treatment themselves. If only to make them look themselves in the mirror and feel a bit of shame for how they have been behaving.
But i won't always stand by and not argue for a different approach when i see someone in my community going overboard with insults. Calling someone a "fucking moron" is just that. It does not mean i think your are a terrible person Jealous - you are allowed to be upset as well. But don't expect this world to not say "hey, wow, slow down a little" when words gets too heated. You would't want TL to be a place where shit hits the fan everyother day either.
On March 17 2021 17:42 tanngard wrote: Perhaps it was me who went overboard by saying that you went overboard. Sorry about that.
But still, calling people utterly fanatic isn't excactly very emphathetic considering how much the tastosis stream meant to them. I also feel it's not correct to summarize this thread as being filled with fanatics. Instead you could see the value in how much attention towards BW tastosis has managed to generate. I feel like there is still this sense of snobbery towards tastosis going on amongst some of you guys. Like i said, a lot of the people that you are referring to has indeed not thought the matter of no tastosis stream the whole way through, but is being demeaning towards them helpful? I don't see how it is.
one of them have literally just sent a toxic PM to another BW caster, saw it on discord. "fanatic" is a apt description for em.
Sure there are fanatics, but this thread is not "filled with tastosis fanatics". Altough if what you say is true, that someone is a real nutcase.
Have you never been fanatical about anything? Sure some people in this thread might be putting all their eggs in the tastosis basket, but that's just their feelings you know. How do we get them to feel like there are other casters and events in BW that is worth watching too? Maybe if we show that this is a community that is understanding and positive they would want to stick around and see the the value in it?
People making this about the commentators and snobbery regarding them are missing the point. These people aren't Tastosis fanatics, they are children upset that their parents stopped buying them free toys on every visit out to the shops.
You aren't owed anything, and the idea that Afreeca is "betraying" their fans by ceasing to operate at a loss to give them stuff is ridiculous. The entitlement is off the charts and I guess I can feel comfortable saying I thought TL was a little better than that because most of you re-registered or de-lurked just to whine.
I love Tastosis, I think they're amazing and I feel sorry that they can't keep doing a job they love (glad they have other opportunities) but even they're not *entitled* to that job, talented and entertaining as they are. Let alone all you crybaby kids.
On March 17 2021 17:42 tanngard wrote: Perhaps it was me who went overboard by saying that you went overboard. Sorry about that.
But still, calling people utterly fanatic isn't excactly very emphathetic considering how much the tastosis stream meant to them. I also feel it's not correct to summarize this thread as being filled with fanatics. Instead you could see the value in how much attention towards BW tastosis has managed to generate. I feel like there is still this sense of snobbery towards tastosis going on amongst some of you guys. Like i said, a lot of the people that you are referring to has indeed not thought the matter of no tastosis stream the whole way through, but is being demeaning towards them helpful? I don't see how it is.
one of them have literally just sent a toxic PM to another BW caster, saw it on discord. "fanatic" is a apt description for em.
Sure there are fanatics, but this thread is not "filled with tastosis fanatics". Altough if what you say is true, that someone is a real nutcase.
Have you never been fanatical about anything? Sure some people in this thread might be putting all their eggs in the tastosis basket, but that's just their feelings you know. How do we get them to feel like there are other casters and events in BW that is worth watching too? Maybe if we show that this is a community that is understanding and positive they would want to stick around and see the the value in it?
denying that tastosis fanatics exists here in this 30+ page thread (high for a dead forum) ->have you ever been fanatical about anything?
yeah i have been fanatical about stuff, but not to the point of dissing (obviously or subtly) on other casters, calling korean casting trash, essentially declaring bw is dead if not for tastosis etc. even if half of those are trolling it already says something,
On March 17 2021 17:42 tanngard wrote: Perhaps it was me who went overboard by saying that you went overboard. Sorry about that.
But still, calling people utterly fanatic isn't excactly very emphathetic considering how much the tastosis stream meant to them. I also feel it's not correct to summarize this thread as being filled with fanatics. Instead you could see the value in how much attention towards BW tastosis has managed to generate. I feel like there is still this sense of snobbery towards tastosis going on amongst some of you guys. Like i said, a lot of the people that you are referring to has indeed not thought the matter of no tastosis stream the whole way through, but is being demeaning towards them helpful? I don't see how it is.
one of them have literally just sent a toxic PM to another BW caster, saw it on discord. "fanatic" is a apt description for em.
Sure there are fanatics, but this thread is not "filled with tastosis fanatics". Altough if what you say is true, that someone is a real nutcase.
Have you never been fanatical about anything? Sure some people in this thread might be putting all their eggs in the tastosis basket, but that's just their feelings you know. How do we get them to feel like there are other casters and events in BW that is worth watching too? Maybe if we show that this is a community that is understanding and positive they would want to stick around and see the the value in it?
denying that tastosis fanatics exists here in this 30+ page thread (high for a dead forum) ->have you ever been fanatical about anything?
yeah i have been fanatical about stuff, but not to the point of dissing (obviously or subtly) on other casters, calling korean casting trash, essentially declaring bw is dead if not for tastosis etc. even if half of those are trolling it already says something,
There is a difference between denying the existence of fanatics in this thread and denying that they make up the majority of the thread. What i see is mostly an outporing of appreciation for tastosis and how they have functioned as an important gateway for people to enjoy BW. Now, a part of that appreciation and love is being expressed in the form of frustration and short sightedness in the face of Afreeca terminating their contract with tastosis. You and me know that Afreeca have basically provided the tastosis stream for free the last 10 season, with limited ways of profitting from it. Clearly many of the people that is expressing anger towards Afreeca is not aware of this.
We could either explain this fact to them in a friendly manner or we can attack them and call them idiots. That is the jest of what i'm trying to get at. Most of the experienced and respected TL members are both fair and friendly, so it shouldn't be a problem really
On March 18 2021 21:14 tanngard wrote: There is a difference between denying the existence of fanatics in this thread and denying that they make up the majority of the thread. What i see is mostly an outporing of appreciation for tastosis and how they have functioned as an important gateway for people to enjoy BW. Now, a part of that appreciation and love is being expressed in the form of frustration and short sightedness in the face of Afreeca terminating their contract with tastosis. You and me know that Afreeca have basically provided the tastosis stream for free the last 10 season, with limited ways of profitting from it. Clearly many of the people that is expressing anger towards Afreeca is not aware of this.
We could either explain this fact to them in a friendly manner or we can attack them and call them idiots. That is the jest of what i'm trying to get at. Most of the experienced and respected TL members are both fair and friendly, so it shouldn't be a problem really
i partially agree because you are also defending trolls in the process. seeing esteemed posters writing paragraphs of niceties to posters with few posts who obviously don't care, effectively wasting their time and effort..pfft
So it seems there is no chance for Artosis+Tasteless casting? Anyone knows the result of the negotiation with afreeca? I think if it's decided we'd deserve a response. (there may have been one on stream, i don't know)
On March 19 2021 05:30 Szinkler wrote: So it seems there is no chance for Artosis+Tasteless casting? Anyone knows the result of the negotiation with afreeca? I think if it's decided we'd deserve a response. (there may have been one on stream, i don't know)
Artosis said they had been trying to negotiate with them for months...
On March 19 2021 05:30 Szinkler wrote: So it seems there is no chance for Artosis+Tasteless casting? Anyone knows the result of the negotiation with afreeca? I think if it's decided we'd deserve a response. (there may have been one on stream, i don't know)
Artosis said they had been trying to negotiate with them for months...
I heard that Tasteless said (on stream) they had a meeting during the weekend. So I think they restarted negotiation after the news and community response?. I'm not sure. Would be nice to hear from a trusted source. But I'm not too optimistic anymore.
On March 19 2021 05:30 Szinkler wrote: So it seems there is no chance for Artosis+Tasteless casting? Anyone knows the result of the negotiation with afreeca? I think if it's decided we'd deserve a response. (there may have been one on stream, i don't know)
Artosis said they had been trying to negotiate with them for months...
I heard that Tasteless said (on stream) they had a meeting during the weekend. So I think they restarted negotiation after the news and community response?. I'm not sure. Would be nice to hear from a trusted source. But I'm not too optimistic anymore.
Sorry to hear that official English cast is terminated. I used to tune in to almost all ASL games. Will korean cast continue to be uploaded on YouTube?
... but this thread... the kind of things people get worked up with... get a life!
On March 20 2021 07:43 MrMischelito wrote: Sorry to hear that official English cast is terminated. I used to tune in to almost all ASL games. Will korean cast continue to be uploaded on YouTube?
... but this thread... the kind of things people get worked up with... get a life!
Wow! just wow! The rage my commment triggered! I consider Nyoken and Scan very good casters, and I will enjoy their English cast and am thankful for their effort. But in my opinion they aren't the best. I cant get the cast from the two I consider to be the best; so that makes them sub-optimum for me. It doesn't make them bad. Or horrible. Not terrible. Just a step below optimum. How is that insulting to anyone? Why did random people I don't know insult me for saying this?
For saying this I have been called a fucking moron by some dude whith so many thousand posts I guess he believes his word to be the bible...
You may not like their style. or their face. But it is a fact they are the best in the manner that they are the best paid, they've casted the most important tournaments, during more time, they have the largest fan/follower base, they are the most influential, and they have done the most for the game since they are around...
Anyway... take this bait or don't. Feel free to rage and isult again. You have one week to add to this discussion until ASL begins...
On March 20 2021 07:43 MrMischelito wrote: Sorry to hear that official English cast is terminated. I used to tune in to almost all ASL games. Will korean cast continue to be uploaded on YouTube?
... but this thread... the kind of things people get worked up with... get a life!
On March 20 2021 07:43 MrMischelito wrote: Sorry to hear that official English cast is terminated. I used to tune in to almost all ASL games. Will korean cast continue to be uploaded on YouTube?
... but this thread... the kind of things people get worked up with... get a life!
Fuck Tastosis, particularly Dan. I'd rather support Nyoken and Scan even if it meant paying them for an English stream. Did I mention how much Dan sucks? Dan sucks.
On March 22 2021 13:37 Dknight wrote: Fuck Tastosis, particularly Dan. I'd rather support Nyoken and Scan even if it meant paying them for an English stream. Did I mention how much Dan sucks? Dan sucks.
On March 22 2021 13:37 Dknight wrote: Fuck Tastosis, particularly Dan. I'd rather support Nyoken and Scan even if it meant paying them for an English stream. Did I mention how much Dan sucks? Dan sucks.
On March 22 2021 13:37 Dknight wrote: Fuck Tastosis, particularly Dan. I'd rather support Nyoken and Scan even if it meant paying them for an English stream. Did I mention how much Dan sucks? Dan sucks.
Damn you seem like a swell guy
We need the full story before we can judge. What if Artosis DT rushed him?
Artosis announced on his stream that they weren't able to purchase rights to the cast, so they will not be able to stream live.
- Tastosis will be uploading VODs to the official AfreecaTV Youtube channel. - VODs will be released at the same time for everyone, supporters or not. - A Patreon has been created for those who want to support them.
On March 22 2021 16:28 Waxangel wrote: AfreecaTV: There's no benefit for us in making English language content with our own money, so we'll stop doing it.
AfreecaTV: ...But if the foreign community REALLY wants it, they can pay for it themselves, we suppose?
Nothing about this is irrational, but it still feels pretty bad.
It does feel irrational to me, people are willing to pay, so why aren't Afreeca the ones charging for it?
I guess it is to little for them to care about, but still!
Kind of sad that they feel the need to get out the begging bowl like this when Scan/Nyoken have already stepped up to the plate to fill the English gap, but I guess this will show just what parts of the community are interested in the game, and what parts of the community are only interested in the casters - and if the latter, why aren't people just subscribing to their Twitch or donating directly? Would just be a huge shame if this splinters things, but given how incredibly resistant some people are to change I guess this is an inevitable risk
On March 22 2021 17:58 sixfour wrote: Kind of sad that they feel the need to get out the begging bowl like this when Scan/Nyoken have already stepped up to the plate to fill the English gap, but I guess this will show just what parts of the community are interested in the game, and what parts of the community are only interested in the casters - and if the latter, why aren't people just subscribing to their Twitch or donating directly? Would just be a huge shame if this splinters things, but given how incredibly resistant some people are to change I guess this is an inevitable risk
I think this is a really weird take, I find it inspiring and great that they can show that there is a market for english casting like this.
Your comment about it showing what the community is interested in is pretty narrowminded.
The AfreecaTV app sucks so bad and the website video barely even works on my tablet, so I am very happy that I can watch it on youtube instead.
I don't know how Scan and Nyoken is as casters, I am probably gonna check them out as well.
But I also wanna support Tastosis for the work they put in and to show Afreeca that there is a market and hopefully get the 2 of them back in the studio eventually.
Already halfway there to their goal. They're probably going to smash it.
Can't say I'll watch the youtube vods though, from what I understand those would be quite far apart from the live-cast and that's a bit of a deal-breaker for me.
Kind of sad that they feel the need to get out the begging bowl like this when Scan/Nyoken have already stepped up to the plate to fill the English gap, but I guess this will show just what parts of the community are interested in the game, and what parts of the community are only interested in the casters - and if the latter, why aren't people just subscribing to their Twitch or donating directly? Would just be a huge shame if this splinters things, but given how incredibly resistant some people are to change I guess this is an inevitable risk
at least it means the scan/nyoken stream will only have the ubermensch of the bw community, upstanding members such as yourself
the tastosis vods will serve as a lightening rod for us plebs that you hate so much anyway
Kind of sad that they feel the need to get out the begging bowl like this when Scan/Nyoken have already stepped up to the plate to fill the English gap, but I guess this will show just what parts of the community are interested in the game, and what parts of the community are only interested in the casters - and if the latter, why aren't people just subscribing to their Twitch or donating directly? Would just be a huge shame if this splinters things, but given how incredibly resistant some people are to change I guess this is an inevitable risk
I'm a bit in between on this topic. And I'll try to explain why.
1st - its great that tasteless and artosis are casting ASL. They are popular and many people like them.
But on 2nd thought what really annoys is me that Artosis tried to make it sound like they need money to pay afreeca for the stream... while in the official Afreeca announcement we can clearly read:
"Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels."
"Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels."
This whole thing really bugs me.
Artosis and Tasteless are Twitch partners so there is some issues there, I am not sure how that works.
The Afreeca thing is only for streaming on Afreeca, and Tastosis knows they won't reach a broader audience if they do it on Afreeca.
"Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels."
This whole thing really bugs me.
Artosis and Tasteless are Twitch partners so there is some issues there, I am not sure how that works.
The Afreeca thing is only for streaming on Afreeca, and Tastosis knows they won't reach a broader audience if they do it on Afreeca.
There'd also be 0% incentive for afreeca to ever again pay them for their cast if they do it for free on their platform anyway.
"Communities and English casters are still allowed, and encouraged, to broadcast the ASL to their own fans through our clean feed on their AfreecaTV Channels."
This whole thing really bugs me.
Artosis and Tasteless are Twitch partners so there is some issues there, I am not sure how that works.
The Afreeca thing is only for streaming on Afreeca, and Tastosis knows they won't reach a broader audience if they do it on Afreeca.
If they are twitch partners I assume they are not allowed to broadcast on Afreeca under their own channel (casting for the someone else like Afreeca obv doesn't count)
This is really great news! I have almost given up as the time was closing in on us. I was hoping for a live cast, bit sad it's not possible. But you have to start somewhere, became a patreon as promised of course. Let's hope in time this whole thing will grow and maybe in the future we will be able to see Tastosis cast ASL live on twitch/youtube. Thank you everyone involved behind the results! Good luck with the work!
On March 22 2021 16:28 Waxangel wrote: AfreecaTV: There's no benefit for us in making English language content with our own money, so we'll stop doing it.
AfreecaTV: ...But if the foreign community REALLY wants it, they can pay for it themselves, we suppose?
Nothing about this is irrational, but it still feels pretty bad.
I'm guessing if Dan/Nick both start making a bunch of money from this Afreeca will happily take over again and take the money themselves, but until it's been proven it'll make them anything they won't bother.
It's not ideal but if the best is impossible then this is the best.
I hope they can upload the VODs as soon as the live events end. Not everyone can catch live broadcast due to time zone, works, etc. so they can still see the VODs and have a similar experience I suppose. In addition, it's nice to add ASL11 cast by Tastosis to the ASL library that already exists on YouTube. I'm sure many of us have saved that playlist and visit the old games all the time for entertainment.
Tbh I think the Scan Nyoken cast is more analytical than Tastosis, but the latter is more entertaining (that's not to say at all that Tastosis cast is not in-depth in knowledge) so we even have options here people!!
Now where's my wallet.
Btw I think I will make a donation for the Scan Nyoken cast as well to support them. I suppose we'll be able to do that once their Afreeca stream goes up?
If Tastosis are to VODcast I hope they are able to do so unspoilered, you lose a bit of magic when the commentators aren’t as blind to events as you are.
Best news in a while! Don't even get any of negative comments, you can never please everyone even if you do almost everything possible lol.. You have so many choices: 1) Go directly watch korean stream. 2) Go watch stream of Scan/Nyoken. 3) Watch VODs of Tastosis.
On March 22 2021 21:22 WombaT wrote: If Tastosis are to VODcast I hope they are able to do so unspoilered, you lose a bit of magic when the commentators aren’t as blind to events as you are.
I'm assuming they will
Guess they'll try and keep it as similar as possible to the previous setup, delay notwithstanding
On March 22 2021 22:12 outscar wrote: Best news in a while! Don't even get any of negative comments, you can never please everyone even if you do almost everything possible lol.. You have so many choices: 1) Go directly watch korean stream. 2) Go watch stream of Scan/Nyoken. 3) Watch VODs of Tastosis.
The casts will be released in chunks (ex: all of ro24 after it finishes) and then uploaded to the official AfreecaTV Youtube.
Oh so apparently they can't release it immediately after each matchday. I wonder why.
Still, good news regardless.
That is quite weird actually, can they figure something out on this? The ro.24 takes like 4 weeks or longer to complete which means it'll be hard to stay spoiler free for that long. Not ideal but oh well.
The casts will be released in chunks (ex: all of ro24 after it finishes) and then uploaded to the official AfreecaTV Youtube.
Oh so apparently they can't release it immediately after each matchday. I wonder why.
Still, good news regardless.
Probably because Afreeca doesn't want them to? After all they want you to go to the AfreecaTV website to watch. Releasing vods right after the games are done to youtube runs counter to that goal.
The casts will be released in chunks (ex: all of ro24 after it finishes) and then uploaded to the official AfreecaTV Youtube.
Oh so apparently they can't release it immediately after each matchday. I wonder why.
Still, good news regardless.
That is quite weird actually, can they figure something out on this? The ro.24 takes like 4 weeks or longer to complete which means it'll be hard to stay spoiler free for that long. Not ideal but oh well.
Its actually a little more than 2 weeks (March 28 to April 13). If it can't be right after the live events I hope they can negotiate something better than that, like the day after or on a weekly basis.
But it may not be a big problem in the end because fans of BW will watch the live events anyway and fans of only Tastosis still get what they want all at once.
Hi, I'm one of the scumbags who would be unlikely to watch ASL unless it's with Tastosis. I haven't played Brood War since 2003. However, it's what got me into watching "esports" at all, and Tastosis were a huge part of that. I even made it to the Afreeca studios a few times to watch in person.
I love Scan and Nyoken -- I watch both of their streams when I can, and I really enjoyed the times when Scan joined Artosis' stream -- but when it comes to watching something like ASL, I want more of a balance of being entertained and being informed. I would absolutely love to see Scanyoken as like, an analyst bench to Tastosis, but if I'm being forced to choose...
And yes, for the record, I did donate to the patreon. Thanks to the poster who put the link in here.
Glad to see they worked out something to cast ASL.
I hope Tastosis: - will be as unspoilered as possible when casting. - won't do too many ASL days in one casting session because it may bring down energy levels. - will cast more than just ASL (also considering patreon is a subscription, not a one-time donation).
Hype! I see they've met their first goal... let's help them get to the second goal and further benefit these two great guys who have given us a lot of quality entertainment over the last decade!
(1) I can't believe Afreeca is making the Ro24 VODs be delayed up to 2 weeks. Like a 24-hour delay makes some sense, but 2 weeks is borderline spiteful.
(2) They are already making some money for free by having the VODs be uploaded to the Afreeca Youtube. I know it's not a lot of money, but consider that the numbers people throw around all use formulas for 5/10 minute videos, not 2-3hr videos.
(3) I think Tastosis should be able to remain spoiler free, assuming that they do the actual cast pretty soon after the live event. Harder for viewers though, especially results for someone like Scan who is often in Artosis's twitch chat.
On March 23 2021 06:02 yoshi_yoshi wrote: (1) I can't believe Afreeca is making the Ro24 VODs be delayed up to 2 weeks. Like a 24-hour delay makes some sense, but 2 weeks is borderline spiteful.
(2) They are already making some money for free by having the VODs be uploaded to the Afreeca Youtube. I know it's not a lot of money, but consider that the numbers people throw around all use formulas for 5/10 minute videos, not 2-3hr videos.
(3) I think Tastosis should be able to remain spoiler free, assuming that they do the actual cast pretty soon after the live event. Harder for viewers though, especially results for someone like Scan who is often in Artosis's twitch chat.
They want you on their website. Vods on youtube 24 hours later means you don't go to their website. yes 2 weeks is excessive but from Afreeca's position entirely understandable.
Looks like both goals are met in less than 24h. Be interesting to see the final figure. The people at Afreeca must feel surprised about the influence of Tastosis in the foreign community.
Keep in mind that this means we have both seasons of ASL this year already covered, and potentially ASTL as well. Hope we can go further than that.
I watched Artosis ASL video on YouTube, and I don’t think Afreeca makes them wait with launching the Vods but they don’t have the production to host it live.
What I'm still curious about is whether the end product for the Tastosis VODs is something that can have an audience of people all watching at the same time. Two approaches that might make this possible: 1) use a feature of YouTube so that the video premiers at a set time and has a live chat box accompanying it, 2) Tastosis actually stream their commentating of the VOD on YouTube (again having the chat box). 1) Seems pretty feasible and not breaking anyone's terms presupposing that feature even exists on YouTube. 2) seems like it might break someone's terms but I don't know exactly what.
Personally I think either option would be amazing, and actually markedly better than having no audience watching and chatting together. If it's possible, I hope Tastosis get word of this idea and take it to heart!
On March 23 2021 09:40 nihil2501 wrote: What I'm still curious about is whether the end product for the Tastosis VODs is something that can have an audience of people all watching at the same time. Two approaches that might make this possible: 1) use a feature of YouTube so that the video premiers at a set time and has a live chat box accompanying it, 2) Tastosis actually stream their commentating of the VOD on YouTube (again having the chat box). 1) Seems pretty feasible and not breaking anyone's terms presupposing that youtube feature even exists. 2) seems like it might break someone's terms but I don't know exactly what.
Personally I think either option would be amazing, and actually markedly better than having no audience watching and chatting together. If it's possible, I hope Tastosis get word of this idea and take it to heart!
1) Is absolutely possible, it is actually called "Premiere" and is an option you can select when uploading a VOD with a scheduled "Premiere" time. I think having some sort of social strapped to this would absolutely make sense, even if it is something in a 3rd party program like Discord if need be - that's how us crusty old folks used to watch Proleague with our 144p streams, chatting on mIRC ^^;
On March 23 2021 09:40 nihil2501 wrote: What I'm still curious about is whether the end product for the Tastosis VODs is something that can have an audience of people all watching at the same time. Two approaches that might make this possible: 1) use a feature of YouTube so that the video premiers at a set time and has a live chat box accompanying it, 2) Tastosis actually stream their commentating of the VOD on YouTube (again having the chat box). 1) Seems pretty feasible and not breaking anyone's terms presupposing that youtube feature even exists. 2) seems like it might break someone's terms but I don't know exactly what.
Personally I think either option would be amazing, and actually markedly better than having no audience watching and chatting together. If it's possible, I hope Tastosis get word of this idea and take it to heart!
1) Is absolutely possible, it is actually called "Premiere" and is an option you can select when uploading a VOD with a scheduled "Premiere" time. I think having some sort of social strapped to this would absolutely make sense, even if it is something in a 3rd party program like Discord if need be - that's how us crusty old folks used to watch Proleague with our 144p streams, chatting on mIRC ^^;
Oh is that what premiere is?
I thought it was just creators announcing an upload ahead of time! That sounds pretty cool actually, would definitely recommend Tastosis go down that route
On March 23 2021 09:40 nihil2501 wrote: What I'm still curious about is whether the end product for the Tastosis VODs is something that can have an audience of people all watching at the same time. Two approaches that might make this possible: 1) use a feature of YouTube so that the video premiers at a set time and has a live chat box accompanying it, 2) Tastosis actually stream their commentating of the VOD on YouTube (again having the chat box). 1) Seems pretty feasible and not breaking anyone's terms presupposing that youtube feature even exists. 2) seems like it might break someone's terms but I don't know exactly what.
Personally I think either option would be amazing, and actually markedly better than having no audience watching and chatting together. If it's possible, I hope Tastosis get word of this idea and take it to heart!
1) Is absolutely possible, it is actually called "Premiere" and is an option you can select when uploading a VOD with a scheduled "Premiere" time. I think having some sort of social strapped to this would absolutely make sense, even if it is something in a 3rd party program like Discord if need be - that's how us crusty old folks used to watch Proleague with our 144p streams, chatting on mIRC ^^;
Oh is that what premiere is?
I thought it was just creators announcing an upload ahead of time! That sounds pretty cool actually, would definitely recommend Tastosis go down that route
It does both! If you go to the creator's channel, you will see that there is a premiere in X hours, and the creator can share a direct link to the video where it says the same thing (with the preview thumbnail) soon after it is uploaded. The chat box appears during the broadcast, and disappears after the broadcast is over (I believe no record is kept of the chat but I'm not an expert).
On March 23 2021 09:40 nihil2501 wrote: What I'm still curious about is whether the end product for the Tastosis VODs is something that can have an audience of people all watching at the same time. Two approaches that might make this possible: 1) use a feature of YouTube so that the video premiers at a set time and has a live chat box accompanying it, 2) Tastosis actually stream their commentating of the VOD on YouTube (again having the chat box). 1) Seems pretty feasible and not breaking anyone's terms presupposing that youtube feature even exists. 2) seems like it might break someone's terms but I don't know exactly what.
Personally I think either option would be amazing, and actually markedly better than having no audience watching and chatting together. If it's possible, I hope Tastosis get word of this idea and take it to heart!
that's how us crusty old folks used to watch Proleague with our 144p streams, chatting on mIRC ^^;
Ah good times. Though I feel so crusty that I’ve disintegrated into dust.
On March 23 2021 09:40 nihil2501 wrote: What I'm still curious about is whether the end product for the Tastosis VODs is something that can have an audience of people all watching at the same time. Two approaches that might make this possible: 1) use a feature of YouTube so that the video premiers at a set time and has a live chat box accompanying it, 2) Tastosis actually stream their commentating of the VOD on YouTube (again having the chat box). 1) Seems pretty feasible and not breaking anyone's terms presupposing that youtube feature even exists. 2) seems like it might break someone's terms but I don't know exactly what.
Personally I think either option would be amazing, and actually markedly better than having no audience watching and chatting together. If it's possible, I hope Tastosis get word of this idea and take it to heart!
that's how us crusty old folks used to watch Proleague with our 144p streams, chatting on mIRC ^^;
Ah good times. Though I feel so crusty that I’ve disintegrated into dust.
Good times, back when the live report threads would reach 100s of pages and you'd have people live translating in chat T_T
Cant tastosis cast it live on afreeca + upload vods to youtube later? i guess a lot of people would like to hear them live, like a LOT. Especially europeans. There is nothing better than waking up sunday morning and tuning into some ASL action. Surely there isnt a lot of cost associated with casting live it on afreeca?
They cant cause they are twitch partners! Best thing we can expect maybe if they can try to get VODs from Afreeca right after the games is finished so they can cast them same day or day after! It will be really hard to wait 3 weeks for games and not be spoiled on internet about results.
On March 23 2021 20:42 att wrote: Cant tastosis cast it live on afreeca + upload vods to youtube later? i guess a lot of people would like to hear them live, like a LOT. Especially europeans. There is nothing better than waking up sunday morning and tuning into some ASL action. Surely there isnt a lot of cost associated with casting live it on afreeca?
On March 23 2021 20:42 att wrote: Cant tastosis cast it live on afreeca + upload vods to youtube later? i guess a lot of people would like to hear them live, like a LOT. Especially europeans. There is nothing better than waking up sunday morning and tuning into some ASL action. Surely there isnt a lot of cost associated with casting live it on afreeca?
No but they dont have the production for it.
That's not the issue at all. There is a free clean stream that Afreeca offers. The cost would be $0. The problem is, from what I understand and has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, their Twitch contracts.
On March 23 2021 20:42 att wrote: Cant tastosis cast it live on afreeca + upload vods to youtube later? i guess a lot of people would like to hear them live, like a LOT. Especially europeans. There is nothing better than waking up sunday morning and tuning into some ASL action. Surely there isnt a lot of cost associated with casting live it on afreeca?
No but they dont have the production for it.
That's not the issue at all. There is a free clean stream that Afreeca offers. The cost would be $0. The problem is, from what I understand and has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, their Twitch contracts.
On March 23 2021 20:42 att wrote: Cant tastosis cast it live on afreeca + upload vods to youtube later? i guess a lot of people would like to hear them live, like a LOT. Especially europeans. There is nothing better than waking up sunday morning and tuning into some ASL action. Surely there isnt a lot of cost associated with casting live it on afreeca?
No but they dont have the production for it.
That's not the issue at all. There is a free clean stream that Afreeca offers. The cost would be $0. The problem is, from what I understand and has been mentioned numerous times in this thread, their Twitch contracts.
Thats not what Artosis said on his stream.
What did he say on his stream? Because what I heard on stream from Artosis is he can't stream on Afreeca because of the Twitch partnership.
The vods are going up on youtube anyway so they could have streamed it there if they wanted to. He said they will get vods without korean commentary over it and get someone to translate the interviews so that they can put up the entire thing in bulks later in a proper way. He also said they had problems with getting the production right since they havent done this before so it could take some time to get it right
Awesome to have Artosis and Tasteless cast the ASL. I hope Afreeca can agree to let VODs come out sooner in the future if not even find a solution to have live coverage back.
I mostly watch VODs, but when I'm able to see live casts it feels more magical.
Nyoken is an awesome caster as well, but ASL is Tastosis' field
On March 24 2021 08:03 Piste wrote: Awesome to have Artosis and Tasteless cast the ASL. I hope Afreeca can agree to let VODs come out sooner in the future if not even find a solution to have live coverage back.
I mostly watch VODs, but when I'm able to see live casts it feels more magical.
Nyoken is an awesome caster as well, but ASL is Tastosis' field
Live coverage (clean stream) is freely available for everyone who isn't partnered with Twitch basically so that has nothing to do with Afreeca IMO. Let's not go down the villain track once again.
"ASL is Tastosis' field" eh... there are 2 high level players willing to live cast for free while 2 professional casters are only willing to upload VODs weeks later and only for money, at this point I feel the cult of personality can sustain the latter while the former can blossom, let's not definitively say who owns what when there are multiple options
On March 23 2021 23:10 Timebon3s wrote: The vods are going up on youtube anyway so they could have streamed it there if they wanted to. He said they will get vods without korean commentary over it and get someone to translate the interviews so that they can put up the entire thing in bulks later in a proper way. He also said they had problems with getting the production right since they havent done this before so it could take some time to get it right
1. No, streaming and uploading are fundamentally different. 2. This makes sense and is a good addition to production value and costs, thank you for clarifying! 3. If they are aiming to mimic a studio experience that would certainly be the case so that makes sense. Thanks again for clarifying. I imagined they would do a voice call or something, perhaps with face cam. But, given the atmosphere they have been working in, this makes sense too.
On March 24 2021 08:03 Piste wrote: Awesome to have Artosis and Tasteless cast the ASL. I hope Afreeca can agree to let VODs come out sooner in the future if not even find a solution to have live coverage back.
I mostly watch VODs, but when I'm able to see live casts it feels more magical.
Nyoken is an awesome caster as well, but ASL is Tastosis' field
Live coverage (clean stream) is freely available for everyone who isn't partnered with Twitch basically so that has nothing to do with Afreeca IMO. Let's not go down the villain track once again.
"ASL is Tastosis' field" eh... there are 2 high level players willing to live cast for free while 2 professional casters are only willing to upload VODs weeks later and only for money, at this point I feel the cult of personality can sustain the latter while the former can blossom, let's not definitively say who owns what when there are multiple options
They would cast ASL anyway patreon or not. They allready told in stream if anyone can and feel to contribute via patron they are welcome. Again for hundred times Nyoken and Scan are great players and casters but Tastosis is better for 90% BW watchers and thats the fact.
I like both pairs. I’m in the patreon because I want tastosis to stay and Korea and keep it up. That said I enjoyed nyokens work on cruisers channel immensely. Starcast tv has been great. Flashftw has been doing a fantastic job.
Would love a scenario where one group does astl.almost have too much Starcraft again with saiyansc. Glad we have this community.
This is hitting $10k per month soon. Don't know what Afreeca's costs were running the English cast but it's getting hard to believe that it wouldn't be perfectly feasible for Afreeca to take over the patreon and bring back the cast. Even if the patreon will inevitably contract a bit later on.
On March 24 2021 08:03 Piste wrote: Awesome to have Artosis and Tasteless cast the ASL. I hope Afreeca can agree to let VODs come out sooner in the future if not even find a solution to have live coverage back.
I mostly watch VODs, but when I'm able to see live casts it feels more magical.
Nyoken is an awesome caster as well, but ASL is Tastosis' field
Live coverage (clean stream) is freely available for everyone who isn't partnered with Twitch basically so that has nothing to do with Afreeca IMO. Let's not go down the villain track once again.
"ASL is Tastosis' field" eh... there are 2 high level players willing to live cast for free while 2 professional casters are only willing to upload VODs weeks later and only for money, at this point I feel the cult of personality can sustain the latter while the former can blossom, let's not definitively say who owns what when there are multiple options
They would cast ASL anyway patreon or not. They allready told in stream if anyone can and feel to contribute via patron they are welcome. Again for hundred times Nyoken and Scan are great players and casters but Tastosis is better for 90% BW watchers and thats the fact.
The next one, yes, but Artosis also already mentioned if there was no money to be earned, they would just stop after next season of ASL. So money definitely does play a role, without good support or opportunities to make money from it, they would be out (makes sense I'd say, I think most of us don't like the idea of doing work for free and they are casting professionally so I can fully imagine it's no longer something like a hobby to them).
Anyway, as mentioned, it's great we have 2 pairs of casters now and great that the VODs will be on Youtube (this might be the biggest thing for me). Hope I'll be able to catch some of Scan/Nyoken's casts too though, as I would be interested in hearing them, but Afreeca is blocked in China, so I fear that is probably gonna be hard. Also hope these efforts do lead to keeping the scene alive outside of Korea.
On March 24 2021 08:03 Piste wrote: Awesome to have Artosis and Tasteless cast the ASL. I hope Afreeca can agree to let VODs come out sooner in the future if not even find a solution to have live coverage back.
I mostly watch VODs, but when I'm able to see live casts it feels more magical.
Nyoken is an awesome caster as well, but ASL is Tastosis' field
Live coverage (clean stream) is freely available for everyone who isn't partnered with Twitch basically so that has nothing to do with Afreeca IMO. Let's not go down the villain track once again.
"ASL is Tastosis' field" eh... there are 2 high level players willing to live cast for free while 2 professional casters are only willing to upload VODs weeks later and only for money, at this point I feel the cult of personality can sustain the latter while the former can blossom, let's not definitively say who owns what when there are multiple options
They would cast ASL anyway patreon or not. They allready told in stream if anyone can and feel to contribute via patron they are welcome. Again for hundred times Nyoken and Scan are great players and casters but Tastosis is better for 90% BW watchers and thats the fact.
The next one, yes, but Artosis also already mentioned if there was no money to be earned, they would just stop after next season of ASL. So money definitely does play a role, without good support or opportunities to make money from it, they would be out (makes sense I'd say, I think most of us don't like the idea of doing work for free and they are casting professionally so I can fully imagine it's no longer something like a hobby to them).
Anyway, as mentioned, it's great we have 2 pairs of casters now and great that the VODs will be on Youtube (this might be the biggest thing for me). Hope I'll be able to catch some of Scan/Nyoken's casts too though, as I would be interested in hearing them, but Afreeca is blocked in China, so I fear that is probably gonna be hard. Also hope these efforts do lead to keeping the scene alive outside of Korea.
Imagine current job you working professional for 10+ years and you love the job. You got dismissal at work...No matter how you liked that job would you continue do it for free? Anyway good to have more casters doing ASL,we should be thankful. I donated to patreon and me personaly will wait for Tastosis VODs,but im sure Nyoken and Scan will do great job too.
On March 24 2021 08:03 Piste wrote: Awesome to have Artosis and Tasteless cast the ASL. I hope Afreeca can agree to let VODs come out sooner in the future if not even find a solution to have live coverage back.
I mostly watch VODs, but when I'm able to see live casts it feels more magical.
Nyoken is an awesome caster as well, but ASL is Tastosis' field
Live coverage (clean stream) is freely available for everyone who isn't partnered with Twitch basically so that has nothing to do with Afreeca IMO. Let's not go down the villain track once again.
"ASL is Tastosis' field" eh... there are 2 high level players willing to live cast for free while 2 professional casters are only willing to upload VODs weeks later and only for money, at this point I feel the cult of personality can sustain the latter while the former can blossom, let's not definitively say who owns what when there are multiple options
Well I definitely didn't mean that Tasteless and Artosis owns ASL english broadcasting. You are free to watch whoever you want but there is no need for judging Tasteless, Artosis or their supporters. I am sorry if you felt like I was accusing Afreeca. I was not. I am aware Tastosis cannot stream throught their platform becouse of their twitch partnership.
Artosis already stated that they are doing the next ASL no matter how the patreon goes, so you are not right about that they would do it only for money.
They are professional casters. People are willing to chip in not only for the quality they provide, but to have certainty that they will get to see the casts. I also love how Tasteless and Artosis are bringing in new people to the scene. That is how the game lives longer.
Starcast TV has their own patreon as well. I watch their casts as well but I do not watch anything on afreeca as the platform does not work properly for me.
I’m gonna watch Starcast if I get the chance to watch it live, and tastosis if not. Really looking forward to Nyoken and Scan as well. I also think the Patreon is a good way to show Korea that foreigners do care about bw. It doesn’t have to be one or the other, and 5/10$ a month is not much to pay considering what they have done for the scene.
On March 24 2021 08:03 Piste wrote: Awesome to have Artosis and Tasteless cast the ASL. I hope Afreeca can agree to let VODs come out sooner in the future if not even find a solution to have live coverage back.
I mostly watch VODs, but when I'm able to see live casts it feels more magical.
Nyoken is an awesome caster as well, but ASL is Tastosis' field
Live coverage (clean stream) is freely available for everyone who isn't partnered with Twitch basically so that has nothing to do with Afreeca IMO. Let's not go down the villain track once again.
"ASL is Tastosis' field" eh... there are 2 high level players willing to live cast for free while 2 professional casters are only willing to upload VODs weeks later and only for money, at this point I feel the cult of personality can sustain the latter while the former can blossom, let's not definitively say who owns what when there are multiple options
They would cast ASL anyway patreon or not. They allready told in stream if anyone can and feel to contribute via patron they are welcome. Again for hundred times Nyoken and Scan are great players and casters but Tastosis is better for 90% BW watchers and thats the fact.
Yet another person trying to shove their opinion and/or made-up numbers as "fact," I'll pass on the bait this time thank you.
On March 24 2021 18:17 BlueStar wrote: Can someone give a link to nyoken + scan patreon page?
I'd save my testosis money for the next season if they continue doing it and if they really provide something that worth it.
With the attitude from all sides, I'd gladly donate to Nyoken and Scan's deeds.
I am actually unsure if they have their own Patreon page but I would suggest asking in this thread:
This is really cool but the fact that they will upload the matches after each stage (so probably a month after the groups?) is disappointing, wish it was like one week after instead.
@Jealous LOL get a life dude,chill. Im willing to open patreon so people can donate to you too,just relax. Correction not 90%,99% BW watchers think Tastosis is better then Nyoken and Scan
I’m a bit disappointed that there wasn’t a mention of the Nyoken/Scan cast on Artosis’ ASL plan video, presumably not everyone is aware they’re doing it and some would have been interested in tuning in or supporting.
On March 24 2021 23:45 bracala wrote: @Jealous LOL get a life dude,chill. Im willing to open patreon so people can donate to you too,just relax. Correction not 90%,99% BW watchers think Tastosis is better then Nyoken and Scan
I now look forward to watching 2 pairs of English casters, says a lot when the threat of English ASL stopping ends up doubling the amount of English commentary.
Big shout out also to those who have been morally and/or financially supporting the foreign BW scene as a whole in all its elements (i.e, events, organizers, players, streamers, casters, mappers, etc.). You know who you are <3
This thread served its purpose. They said good bye to the english cast in the studio made by Tastosis. They run it for 10 seasons and they did a great job. We are making a mistake by doing a fight of Scan+ nyoken vs Tastosis. Afterall Scan + nyoken are going to bring an excellent knowledge live cast on the afreeca stream from now on.I think the hard core Broodwar fans are going to be happy with this combo.
Tastosis has a huge fan base well earned. They risked it all by going to Korea without a secure plan to make a career of Starcraft-They made it they are profesionals casters.The most logical is they get Paid for their job. If you hate the sucess of this stellar combo or something cuz they earn their money by doing what they love thats on you.In the end Artosis have family and many kids to take care about.He doesnt have time to feed trolls on forums.They will bring (i hope) the same cast of the last 10 ASL season now by vods only. Honestly i think it sucks that the vods are coming 2 weeks later. Lets hope they get early tbh..All in all The community wins. Live casting by NYOCAN + vods by Tastosis. Pick what fit you best -
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cKmbNDO.jpg)
go do your thing! 
'ds and is making a third for Diablo II (which is totally not going to be a shitshow, cuz they said it won't be).
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/G2qU716.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/E1QgP8A.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/EpaBrah.jpg)
