On February 10 2021 08:40 MaGic~PhiL wrote: so ladder phase gets cancelled and restarted? everything else seems super unfair?_?
Why not give participants the option to either play the new ladder or hold on their current score? TT1 can knock out 40 games and S rank in the time remaining if he planned to. People like me with less time to ladder (work/kids/other commitments) and already got their account ready to enter can elect to hold on their current MMR. At the end merge the lists and take the top 28.
I'm not sure who doing that would hurt. Anyone who spent the past few weeks grinding for BSL and doesn't have a good MMR already isn't going to be kept out by the ladder reset, they're going to be kept out because after weeks of grinding they didn't have a good MMR. Anyone who planned to blitz the ladder in the last few days still can.
People currently on 2100 MMR after 100 games will probably say that had it not been for the reset they totally would have gotten 2350 by Sunday but I'm not sure I believe them. Either way, they have the option to prove themselves in the next 5 days.
The only problem to this approach is that what if you weren't going to blitz? What if it was slow and steady, and you had given yourself time to play only the remaining 15 games (because you planned it as such to play a few games per day) or so by the deadline. People in this bucket may not have the time left due to this change now.
To your other point, while I would agree if you were 2100 after 100+ games, are you going to miraculously get 2300? Probably not. But that person can argue that "well, if I got a lucky streak and my best match up, maybe I could have..." That is not a point that we can really dispute, because there's no proof on either side now; and we know that ladder swings of +100 points is actually very possible if you hit a hot streak. I would say that it becomes unfair from an objective point of view. Another argument is - the map pool is different now, so people can also use this as an argument because now they have to get used to new maps in order to quickly get the 40 games up, which in result can hurt a persons momentum. I feel like there's lots of arguments to be made. And you can probably make counter arguments to these arguments, and the cycle will continue...
Also, anyone who did have time to fully mass-game in these last few days would objectively be at a disadvantage now. We can't sit here and act like the first week of a new season is the same difficulty as the last week of the old season we were just in. So now someone's 2300 was in the last week of the older season (easier), and somebody else who wants to mass-game would be playing in the first week of a new season (much harder). It's not an equal playing ground anymore... I personally think this disparity is one of the biggest problems to address.
I'm not stating what I think should be done, I'm simply playing devils advocate because I understand the different angles in this, and it's definitely not clear cut.
Anyways, all unfortunate, especially with the deadline looming just few days away. We'll see what ZZZero and the team decide is best. It's not an easy decision either way.
Saying "let people keep the ladder rating they had if they want to" is pretty myopic on many levels IMO. Here are just 2:
1. Specifically within this context, no one cares if you have kids or whatever. If you had one arm, should you get some extra leeway or understanding for a point-based qualifier?
2. Letting people keep their existing ladder rating is the equivalent (for some, to be fair) of hedging their bets. They can continue to sink games in knowing that they can always fall back on their 2120 from last month or whatever - unless they hit a point above that, at which point they can just claim that they were continuing to ladder up this whole time? Let's not make this some sort of crab bucket analogy either, as per #1.
However, if the cut-off is legitimately within this week, that is certainly quite a pickle and a shit play on Blizzard's part. I don't think cutting the season short at this point is the least fair idea.
On February 10 2021 08:40 MaGic~PhiL wrote: so ladder phase gets cancelled and restarted? everything else seems super unfair?_?
Why not give participants the option to either play the new ladder or hold on their current score? Inactive gosus can knock out 40 games and S rank in the time remaining if he planned to. People like me with less time to ladder (work/kids/other commitments) and already got their account ready to enter can elect to hold on their current MMR. At the end merge the lists and take the top 28.
I'm not sure who doing that would hurt. Anyone who spent the past few weeks grinding for BSL and doesn't have a good MMR already isn't going to be kept out by the ladder reset, they're going to be kept out because after weeks of grinding they didn't have a good MMR. Anyone who planned to blitz the ladder in the last few days still can.
People currently on 2100 MMR after 100 games will probably say that had it not been for the reset they totally would have gotten 2350 by Sunday but I'm not sure I believe them. Either way, they have the option to prove themselves in the next 5 days.
Is is just a bad situation.
I doubt there is a option that is fair for everyone. Lets brainstorm a bit.
A) We restart the BSL Ladder Stage and delay BSL -> People who grinded so far are rightfully upset and dissapointed
B) We let people who have a certain MMR now keep their result and the season simply runs out as planned (~4/5 Days) ; extremely unfair to people who didnt have time to play yet because the beginning of a season is way harder than the end of a season
C) People keep their MMR and we extend the ladder phase -> still feels unfairish to the players who planned to play their games during the last 4/5 days but it is better than solution B)
well what other reasonable options do we even have.. this all is so awkward.. Im really interested to hear what zeros solution is.. and I think time is also of the essence depending on what the plan is (e.g. if players can not keep their last season BSL rating they need to know quickly in order to play/grind again)..
Also before I forget one more very important point: How do you resolve the issue if a player did not reach the minimum amount of games (top 4 50 games.. top XX 40 games).. simply ignore the rule that was implemented (in case we decide players can keep their old season bslaccount mmr.. It would be reasonable for an account with >50 games.. but imagine somone being 25-1 ; 20-1; 15-1 or 10-1 and thus having very little games but super high rating.. that was something the 50 & 40 games rule tried to prevent)
apparently the ladder is broken right now anyway.. so yeah.. kinda dumb o_O
Yeah. Blizzard really fucked this up. I think the only thing everyone will agree on is that it's not ZZZero's fault and that whatever he decides is okay.
Has there been a decision yet? Holding current MMRs is not a possibility because they are severely inflated due to the ladder being at the very tail end of the longest season since the release of remastered. Having this many players nearing 2500 MMR is just unrealistic.
On February 10 2021 10:55 ne4aJIb wrote: or take the average of points from two seasons
Would have to be weighted somehow, no?
On February 10 2021 12:30 Q~Bert wrote: Has there been a decision yet? Holding current MMRs is not a possibility because they are severely inflated due to the ladder being at the very tail end of the longest season since the release of remastered. Having this many players nearing 2500 MMR is just unrealistic.
And all "new season" MMRs are obviously volatile and potentially throwaways entirely. Imagine getting matched with a top player who is already "qualified" based on "old" MMR and is just out to steal points from their competitors for shits n giggles. Or even just casual laddering at a lower rank.
Blizz done goofed here IMO but they also don't care so maybe not so much...
I'm 98% sure that they changed seasons because they met their quota for data storage (generated from ladder games/player stats) rather than anything else.
I think you should lower the min. amount of games requirement (20 games?), as anyway the intention of that is to make sure people don't abuse their placement matches MMR. So we know who would qualify anyway. Then if there are any upset people, give them a chance to qualify with an extra tournament or so, otherwise take it as we ended with standings from yesterday (HELLO RO16 lol)
this is very shit situation for zzzero and whole bsl crew to decide what to do, if you give option to keep current ranking then koget is top1 already, no1 can get almost 2600mmr in the start of the season. if you want to take current ranking and lower number of games played so you can qualify then you need to get lower then 28 becasue Dewalt is at 28 and lets be honest there cant be BSL without him, but then what about ppl like Blackman who is 2300 with 15 games or horrOr who is 5-1 with same rating as me after 30 games? There is also reset and start over again but then ppl like Kwark and myself who dont have so much time to play becasue of family/other stuff will be unhappy especially now when its so much harder at the beggining of the season to get high mmr. Whatever ZZZero and BSL crew decides will support it, we schould be thankful to them for making another BSL and putting their free time in it, not their fault Blizzard lack basic communication skills, i dont think them delaying for 5 days start of new season would cause any trouble.
On February 10 2021 17:40 Tarson wrote: this is very shit situation for zzzero and whole bsl crew to decide what to do, if you give option to keep current ranking then koget is top1 already, no1 can get almost 2600mmr in the start of the season. if you want to take current ranking and lower number of games played so you can qualify then you need to get lower then 28 becasue Dewalt is at 28 and lets be honest there cant be BSL without him, but then what about ppl like Blackman who is 2300 with 15 games or horrOr who is 5-1 with same rating as me after 30 games? There is also reset and start over again but then ppl like Kwark and myself who dont have so much time to play becasue of family/other stuff will be unhappy especially now when its so much harder at the beggining of the season to get high mmr. Whatever ZZZero and BSL crew decides will support it, we schould be thankful to them for making another BSL and putting their free time in it, not their fault Blizzard lack basic communication skills, i dont think them delaying for 5 days start of new season would cause any trouble.
That is why I propose, take old standings, lower the amount of game to 20, if someone is upset make a tournament for 2-4 spots extra.
I think it's fairly obvious that either using only the old standings, or using only the new ones, would be unfair. How about some sort of compromise where maybe half of the people qualify from the old standings, and the rest can qualify from the new season; that way anyone that really put in work and achieved high mmr with a high number of games played are rewarded, and those that didn't play enough games and/or didn't start playing yet still have a chance to qualify.
On February 10 2021 19:44 Avi-Love wrote: I think it's fairly obvious that either using only the old standings, or using only the new ones, would be unfair. How about some sort of compromise where maybe half of the people qualify from the old standings, and the rest can qualify from the new season; that way anyone that really put in work and achieved high mmr with a high number of games played are rewarded, and those that didn't play enough games and/or didn't start playing yet still have a chance to qualify.
Yes, in my opinion a weighted score/mmr is the way out of this.
So basically take the existing rankings, find a way to normalize the MMRs from the total number of days BSL Ladder was on in the old season and then create a new (maybe 10 day or however long is necessary) score for games in the new ladder season. Then add the two and weight them accordingly.
It would help the people that barely played in the old season but also keep the high MMRs of the old season in a favorable position still.
EPT
