EPTThe sheer amount of prep to play 9 match-ups at a pro level, simultaneously ...
What an undertaking. I doubt it will happen.
No Race Reveal.
You want an advantage, easy, play all 9 races.
Flash says he will choose random - Page 9
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
The sheer amount of prep to play 9 match-ups at a pro level, simultaneously ... What an undertaking. I doubt it will happen. No Race Reveal. You want an advantage, easy, play all 9 races. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden533 Posts
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan. Exactly, well put. On April 21 2020 13:44 Caihead wrote: Flash becoming the Bobby Fischer of Starcraft with this move that could revitalize the pro scene (or completely fall on its ass like Fischer random). Super excited to see how it plays out if more pros will also go random. Not that this is related to playing random in any way, but Fischer Random is super popular? :p | ||
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prosatan
Romania8520 Posts
On April 21 2020 16:23 A.Alm wrote: Exactly, well put. Not that this is related to playing random in any way, but Fischer Random is super popular? :p Wesley So agrees with you  | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan. "We have literally never seen any games with random at the pro level (or at least not for >16 years). But I can tell you right now this is going to suck the variety out of the game. Here's exactly how they're going to go!" I've been on TL for 13 years. This thread has some of the worst takes I've ever seen here, and that's saying something. Mind boggling. | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
On April 21 2020 11:51 puppykiller wrote: All i'm saying is if you were a pro and you were going against Flash, would you rather have him pick Terran, or Random. Lets be honest. For the "Random OP" people, this is the only question you should be asking. There should be SponMatches on Afreeca where Flash's opponent gets to make this decision. Bet you "Flash please go Random" would be chosen by his opponents way more than "Flash please go Terran". | ||
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Copymizer
Denmark2107 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden533 Posts
On April 21 2020 17:42 darktreb wrote: For the "Random OP" people, this is the only question you should be asking. There should be SponMatches on Afreeca where Flash's opponent gets to make this decision. Bet you "Flash please go Random" would be chosen by his opponents way more than "Flash please go Terran". Has anyone here claimed random is OP? People seem to complain about the "not showing race" part of it all as it increases the randomness of it all (= more BO wins = less skill = less fun tournament to watch and play). Also, the person you quoted obv meant the same thing as you. Anyone would rather play Flash's random than his terran. | ||
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
On April 21 2020 10:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: Hope others random against him, rvr no telling race has always been the best form of brood war. Then also introduce a bunch of island maps. and I would be a truly truly happy man. Gonna be the first tourney where I'm really cheering for flash either way. :D A rare time we agree on something.  1 race plebs only play 33% of the game. 3 race master race deserves any build order advantage they get. Though in all seriousness, random can work against you as well. There's a lot of examples that have probably already been listed. But say you're Flash, and you have a 70++% chance or so to win vs any progamer. Do you really want to risk playing the best ZvZers when if you had just played TvZ and macro'd perfectly he'd already be under insane amounts of pressure? Random is a double edged sword, if it weren't more people would have played it to begin with. I say it's exciting if he goes to try it out, it might make for some more interesting/creative games. It might not, but there's a chance it could. I'm a /stats & numbers lover though, so watching him lose his 70%+ win rate on randoming is going to be sad. Because it's such an insanely impressive feat. But who knows what will happen. Maybe he'll win at a similar rate. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
I would argue the reason people have stuck to playing one race is one of practicality - as many here have noted, playing Random involves a much greater investment in terms of time and effort. Back in the cut-throat KeSPA days where the player pool was much, much larger, that makes a lot of sense. In the streamer era you can retain followers by a number of means and when you're one of the greatest players, if not THE greatest, to have ever played the game, you can do pretty much whatever you want on stream. Audiences in the hundreds and low thousands watch as progamers share a meal. I'd say Flash can play all the Random he wants. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia424 Posts
On April 21 2020 09:40 BisuDagger wrote: Tbh, I think Flash would solve early game PvZ given the chance. He just has a much more analytical approach to the game then any protoss player. Bisu doesn't think about how he can safely expand and power up, he thinks about how many different ways can he abuse his opponent to get a big enough edge to take him into the mid game. I doubt it, but I would love to see it. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Edit: So that Flash doesn't get a ridiculously unfair advantage when he gets terran. If Flash doesn't call he is either tooss or zerg so protoss players can in main 2 gate or put gateway in natural since both are ok against toss or zerg. Terran players can go factory or rax fe and I'm not really sure what zerg players should do. Maybe overpool? | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13298 Posts
On April 21 2020 17:39 darktreb wrote: "We have literally never seen any games with random at the pro level (or at least not for >16 years). But I can tell you right now this is going to suck the variety out of the game. Here's exactly how they're going to go!" I've been on TL for 13 years. This thread has some of the worst takes I've ever seen here, and that's saying something. Mind boggling. Preach. When did everybody get so soft? We should be applauding flash for trying this not putting rules around it for the NR20 sooks. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2041 Posts
On April 21 2020 18:12 SK.Testie wrote: A rare time we agree on something. 1 race plebs only play 33% of the game. 3 race master race deserves any build order advantage they get. Though in all seriousness, random can work against you as well. There's a lot of examples that have probably already been listed. But say you're Flash, and you have a 70++% chance or so to win vs any progamer. Do you really want to risk playing the best ZvZers when if you had just played TvZ and macro'd perfectly he'd already be under insane amounts of pressure? Random is a double edged sword, if it weren't more people would have played it to begin with. I say it's exciting if he goes to try it out, it might make for some more interesting/creative games. It might not, but there's a chance it could. I'm a /stats & numbers lover though, so watching him lose his 70%+ win rate on randoming is going to be sad. Because it's such an insanely impressive feat. But who knows what will happen. Maybe he'll win at a similar rate. Hi Testie, Time for some BW?  | ||
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kaspa84
Brazil169 Posts
On April 21 2020 16:23 A.Alm wrote: Exactly, well put. Not that this is related to playing random in any way, but Fischer Random is super popular? :p Actually Fischer Random aka Chess 960 is reasonably popular at high levels of Lichess.org. But at lower levels where it loses most of its purpose (ie avoiding excessive memorization o openings) it is indeed not popular. But I dont see much similarities because random on Starcraft actually puts a higher burden of preparation on the players, while being asymetrical on its effects. | ||
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1515 Posts
I don't know how anyone can be a fan of the game AND be against seeing less Flash Terran play. He's won 4 ASL tournaments as Terran out of the 9 so far. Time for some change. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
Or Jordan going for baseball just to fail there  Can't end well results-wise, but at least it would be talked about and maybe bring more interest to the Starcraft scene BTW. I really can't believe how many people seem serious in saying choosing R is unfair or OP. The game was released 22 years ago, you don't think this optimal approach would've been distilled by now?... These players did their best to earn money and trophies, and some of you believe they would've passed up on an opportunity for an increased chance of winning? Or am I misunderstanding the argument...? R is obviously the inferior way to go about winning longterm, given the limited capacity of the human body to train and the complexity of starcraft. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19307 Posts
On April 22 2020 02:26 niteReloaded wrote: R is obviously the inferior way to go about winning longterm, given the limited capacity of the human body to train and the complexity of starcraft. A standard map pool would eventually benefit the R player right? Let's vote for FS, CB, Neo Medusa as the only 3 maps in the next ASL. | ||
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linestein
United States210 Posts
He'll win 75% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Protoss. He'll win 40% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Zerg. I'm predicting a 70% winrate with this gimmick. For one I'm not a fan of this at all because at best it shows that Flash is a genius while at worst it proves that Terran is the master race of SC:R. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1714 Posts
On April 22 2020 04:08 linestein wrote: He'll win 100% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Terran. He'll win 75% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Protoss. He'll win 40% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Zerg. I'm predicting a 70% winrate with this gimmick. For one I'm not a fan of this at all because at best it shows that Flash is a genius while at worst it proves that Terran is the master race of SC:R. Can't see how this can ever prove that T is best race. Even if Flash never wins as P/Z, there's an easy excuse that learning more than 1 race ain't feasible. But if the opposite were to happen (even though its extremely extremely unlikely), no one can claim ever again that T is OP. | ||
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LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
I mean, really.... what is more imbalanced than beeing God and playing Terran? I really feel for those who can't get over the balance discusion no metter what the topic is. This is all about fun and excitement, Flash already talked about the incredible adrenaline rush and pleasure he gets from winning games via mind games, I personally very much share that feeling, eventhough I'm garbage and he is He. Imagine the incredible source for mind games if playing random and having Lee Young Ho's brain, it really opens a whole new territory of meta very much unexplored so far. Bring it on baby | ||
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