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Flash says he will choose random - Page 8

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ne4aJIb
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Russian Federation3209 Posts
April 20 2020 19:42 GMT
#141
And it is good PR, his viewers number will double if not already, just to see how he plays random
Bisu,Best,Stork,Jangbi and Flash, Fantasy, Leta, Light and Jaedong, Hydra, Zero, Soulkey assemble in ACE now!
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-20 20:21:36
April 20 2020 20:19 GMT
#142
my interest in watching asl has gone from 10/10 to 14/10

edit: with asl time preparation and the fact he gets a seed, it's not like he has to train all the match ups. he just has to train 3vx. i am sure he will find many many many many practice partners who want to play againt flash's random.
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
kidcrash
Profile Joined September 2009
United States623 Posts
April 20 2020 20:25 GMT
#143
How would drone scouting work in ZvR from both sides and R gets Z? Couldnt the player picking R get a nice advantage by forgoing drone scout or can the Z picking player just play it safe with overpool/9 pool and overlord scout? You'd think Z would still have to drone scout on 4 player maps putting him at a disadvantage if R is not a T or P.

Im honestly excited for all the nuances of a pro random player being explored.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10232 Posts
April 20 2020 21:32 GMT
#144
On April 21 2020 05:25 kidcrash wrote:
How would drone scouting work in ZvR from both sides and R gets Z? Couldnt the player picking R get a nice advantage by forgoing drone scout or can the Z picking player just play it safe with overpool/9 pool and overlord scout? You'd think Z would still have to drone scout on 4 player maps putting him at a disadvantage if R is not a T or P.

Im honestly excited for all the nuances of a pro random player being explored.

Yes, ZvR will be hard if R is Z. I think they might just default to a 9p speed.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
Chosi
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Germany1303 Posts
April 20 2020 21:49 GMT
#145
Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
Someday, you’re going to fuck up so magnificently, so ambitiously, so overwhelmingly that the sky will light up and the moons will spin and the gods themselves will shit comets with glee. And I just hope I’m still around to see it.
Rainalcar
Profile Joined April 2010
Croatia422 Posts
April 20 2020 22:36 GMT
#146
If it's his right, he can go for it. Who knows how it will turn out.
If he's just teasing, it's also on him.

Honestly, would rather see him play P and continuously die to 3hatch hydra rushes But even if it's R that happens, it's going to be interesting.
j.r.r.
llIH
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway2143 Posts
April 20 2020 22:49 GMT
#147
I'm already looking forward to ASL season 10. When does it start?
staatbauhaus
Profile Joined February 2020
99 Posts
April 21 2020 00:14 GMT
#148
PROS like stork and bisu are encouraging flash to do it and saying they will teach flash the finer details of their race. Flash said he'll start with Horang2 first and work his way up. If pros are not taking offense to it why are you guys LOL.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19298 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-21 00:41:21
April 21 2020 00:40 GMT
#149
On April 21 2020 07:36 Rainalcar wrote:
If it's his right, he can go for it. Who knows how it will turn out.
If he's just teasing, it's also on him.

Honestly, would rather see him play P and continuously die to 3hatch hydra rushes But even if it's R that happens, it's going to be interesting.

Tbh, I think Flash would solve early game PvZ given the chance. He just has a much more analytical approach to the game then any protoss player. Bisu doesn't think about how he can safely expand and power up, he thinks about how many different ways can he abuse his opponent to get a big enough edge to take him into the mid game.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28706 Posts
April 21 2020 01:32 GMT
#150
Hope others random against him, rvr no telling race has always been the best form of brood war. Then also introduce a bunch of island maps. and I would be a truly truly happy man.

Gonna be the first tourney where I'm really cheering for flash either way. :D
Moderator
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10682 Posts
April 21 2020 01:58 GMT
#151
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote:
Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.


Well said, I don't think FlaSh will do as well as others think with Zerg, I think he will do fine in PvT / PvP, but I can see him having a hard time in PvZ as well, despite him saying it is easier than (TvZ???) lol, this is just my opinion though, and I am excited to see how he does.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
LfunkGG
Profile Joined February 2019
78 Posts
April 21 2020 02:19 GMT
#152
i dont think its doable at pro level. his terran will weaken due to lack of practise. also his other races would not be as good as his terran. i think it will be a short adventure like light's protoss.
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8763 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-21 02:36:33
April 21 2020 02:28 GMT
#153
he said he announced his decision and then had a bit of doubt cause he thought it would be too difficult, but since the news was also covered by the asl casters hes definitely going through with it now. only way it wouldnt happen would be if they changed tournament rules or for some reason the backlash from the community was so bad that he would be forced to drop the idea.

also its 100% random rather than picking 1 off race and he wont be specifying the race when the game starts. he doesnt think hell climb very high if he picks p or z so hes actually relying on build order advantages from randoming. he also didnt sugarcoat the fact that randoming terran is obviously his ideal scenario.
On April 21 2020 09:40 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2020 07:36 Rainalcar wrote:
If it's his right, he can go for it. Who knows how it will turn out.
If he's just teasing, it's also on him.

Honestly, would rather see him play P and continuously die to 3hatch hydra rushes But even if it's R that happens, it's going to be interesting.

Tbh, I think Flash would solve early game PvZ given the chance. He just has a much more analytical approach to the game then any protoss player. Bisu doesn't think about how he can safely expand and power up, he thinks about how many different ways can he abuse his opponent to get a big enough edge to take him into the mid game.

thats a pretty gross understatement of bisus understanding of protoss. if you watch any of tbls commentate on their respective races, the knowledge they have is insane. flash has stated that he finds p vs 973 extremely difficult and its very unlikely that hell find a solution before bisu or stork does.

honestly its a shame that most of tl doesnt understand korean. most of the strategy discussion on tl is "start with x build, get y tech, get n expos and macro or push at z timing". the discussions the pros have when they play proleague and watch each other is so detailed and fine tuned its ridiculous. "efficiency" is the main subject line for anything they discuss; their mineral/gas calculations are perfect for specific timings they're looking to hit on the builds they execute, their management of supply is perfect, army management is flawless etc. their theory crafting is on another level.
if you watch jd cast zvz for example its actually ridiculous how deep his knowledge is. hes a fking prophet that can tell you exactly what the cost of a player losing a single zergling at a random point in the game is.
it really puts into perspective how shallow the foreign community's understanding of the game is compared to the pros. i dont think theres a single other game that has such a HUGE skill discrepancy and when you hear their analysis and commentaries you just realise that that gap will never ever get smaller.

also lastly the other pros dont seem to be completely against the idea. some of them rightfully have concerns about build order disadvantages, especially if they meet his terran but for the most part they accept that its going to happen. in my opinion a lot of this is not due to the fact that they think its fair though, its because a wider issue with korean starcraft is that interest is dying and the pros know it. a common topic of discussion between the pros when they discuss starcraft in general is how its a dying scene and they need to do things to keep it alive. this doesnt necessarily mean just more tournaments or games, but the streamers individually have to change things up to create more brand power for themselves so that they can bring the increased interest back into the starcraft community. therefore flash playing random is probably just being accepted as something that the pros will have to accommodate in order to keep the scene alive.
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
April 21 2020 02:51 GMT
#154
All i'm saying is if you were a pro and you were going against Flash, would you rather have him pick Terran, or Random. Lets be honest.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
ggsimida
Profile Joined August 2015
1148 Posts
April 21 2020 03:02 GMT
#155
On April 21 2020 11:28 evilfatsh1t wrote:
he said he announced his decision and then had a bit of doubt cause he thought it would be too difficult, but since the news was also covered by the asl casters hes definitely going through with it now. only way it wouldnt happen would be if they changed tournament rules or for some reason the backlash from the community was so bad that he would be forced to drop the idea.

also its 100% random rather than picking 1 off race and he wont be specifying the race when the game starts. he doesnt think hell climb very high if he picks p or z so hes actually relying on build order advantages from randoming. he also didnt sugarcoat the fact that randoming terran is obviously his ideal scenario.
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2020 09:40 BisuDagger wrote:
On April 21 2020 07:36 Rainalcar wrote:
If it's his right, he can go for it. Who knows how it will turn out.
If he's just teasing, it's also on him.

Honestly, would rather see him play P and continuously die to 3hatch hydra rushes But even if it's R that happens, it's going to be interesting.

Tbh, I think Flash would solve early game PvZ given the chance. He just has a much more analytical approach to the game then any protoss player. Bisu doesn't think about how he can safely expand and power up, he thinks about how many different ways can he abuse his opponent to get a big enough edge to take him into the mid game.

thats a pretty gross understatement of bisus understanding of protoss. if you watch any of tbls commentate on their respective races, the knowledge they have is insane. flash has stated that he finds p vs 973 extremely difficult and its very unlikely that hell find a solution before bisu or stork does.

honestly its a shame that most of tl doesnt understand korean. most of the strategy discussion on tl is "start with x build, get y tech, get n expos and macro or push at z timing". the discussions the pros have when they play proleague and watch each other is so detailed and fine tuned its ridiculous. "efficiency" is the main subject line for anything they discuss; their mineral/gas calculations are perfect for specific timings they're looking to hit on the builds they execute, their management of supply is perfect, army management is flawless etc. their theory crafting is on another level.
if you watch jd cast zvz for example its actually ridiculous how deep his knowledge is. hes a fking prophet that can tell you exactly what the cost of a player losing a single zergling at a random point in the game is.
it really puts into perspective how shallow the foreign community's understanding of the game is compared to the pros. i dont think theres a single other game that has such a HUGE skill discrepancy and when you hear their analysis and commentaries you just realise that that gap will never ever get smaller.

also lastly the other pros dont seem to be completely against the idea. some of them rightfully have concerns about build order disadvantages, especially if they meet his terran but for the most part they accept that its going to happen. in my opinion a lot of this is not due to the fact that they think its fair though, its because a wider issue with korean starcraft is that interest is dying and the pros know it. a common topic of discussion between the pros when they discuss starcraft in general is how its a dying scene and they need to do things to keep it alive. this doesnt necessarily mean just more tournaments or games, but the streamers individually have to change things up to create more brand power for themselves so that they can bring the increased interest back into the starcraft community. therefore flash playing random is probably just being accepted as something that the pros will have to accommodate in order to keep the scene alive.


pros who literally play and dissect the game for a living vs armchair dunning kruegers who think hitchhiker is a very exciting sophisticated strategic map (just plug the gap lol how hard is that use your brain!!) and that their 5 min of armchair theorizing makes them able to solve any gameplay conundrum better than the pros could? you don't say.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
April 21 2020 03:06 GMT
#156
On April 21 2020 11:51 puppykiller wrote:
All i'm saying is if you were a pro and you were going against Flash, would you rather have him pick Terran, or Random. Lets be honest.


This is such an insightful 'subverted' perspective.

If given the choice to race pick for Flash between Terran and Random, very likely most pro gamers would choose Random. Getting a good 2/3 odds of Flash playing his 'weaker' race outweighs the risk of any early game BO disadvantage.
gg no re thx
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28706 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-21 03:21:27
April 21 2020 03:15 GMT
#157
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote:
Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.


If the other guy is forced into either a super safe or an allin build, how is the R player supposed to know which build order to pick?

To be clear, I definitely acknowledge that there are some random scenarios where the random player gets a statistic advantage, and it's exacerbated by the random player being more familiar with those scenarios. For example if you are a random player you will normally be more used to playing zvp against protoss going 1 gate gas than the protoss player will be familiar with opening 1 gate gas against zerg. But being random, your counter to 1 gate gas is completely different from your counter to proxy 2 gate (which is also something you will face occasionally. That said I know that koreans think you will beat proxy 2 gate if you scout it in time regardless of your opening, but it's just an example.)

It's just that the random factor actually goes both ways. Playing random, your opponent tends to play less predictably, too. I think many of you are attributing too much weight on the early game build order advantages. They're present in some matchups, but not in all, and sometimes, the random player is the one who gets mindgamed by randoming. It definitely makes for less standard games, quite possibly for more build order wins (I don't think koreans are gonna self-handicap by scouting with their 6th worker against flash) - but it really isn't a given that flash ends up being the one with the build order win. Stuff like proxy bbs can end up being a stronger opener against random than it is against picked zerg, for example, because random will often scout later than picked races do, and that makes you more susceptible to it.

So - it's less predictable. Somewhat more likely to result in short games. Far more likely to result in weird games. But the % of Flash getting a big build order advantage isn't much more pronounced than it is in regular games, mostly all of the gambling builds you can do as random also has a chance at backfiring. That protoss can't open forge FE against zerg is a real disadvantage for protoss players who favor that - but frankly, it's pretty close to the only consistent disadvantage. A zerg player can choose to open 9pool or 12hatch or 12pool or overpool - it's not like the other races have a catch-all anti-that build order. Terran can play pretty much entirely normally (with single 8 rax being much less of an option vs zerg but with proxy bbs perhaps being stronger).
Moderator
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
April 21 2020 04:44 GMT
#158
Flash becoming the Bobby Fischer of Starcraft with this move that could revitalize the pro scene (or completely fall on its ass like Fischer random). Super excited to see how it plays out if more pros will also go random.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8763 Posts
April 21 2020 05:01 GMT
#159
On April 21 2020 12:02 ggsimida wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2020 11:28 evilfatsh1t wrote:
he said he announced his decision and then had a bit of doubt cause he thought it would be too difficult, but since the news was also covered by the asl casters hes definitely going through with it now. only way it wouldnt happen would be if they changed tournament rules or for some reason the backlash from the community was so bad that he would be forced to drop the idea.

also its 100% random rather than picking 1 off race and he wont be specifying the race when the game starts. he doesnt think hell climb very high if he picks p or z so hes actually relying on build order advantages from randoming. he also didnt sugarcoat the fact that randoming terran is obviously his ideal scenario.
On April 21 2020 09:40 BisuDagger wrote:
On April 21 2020 07:36 Rainalcar wrote:
If it's his right, he can go for it. Who knows how it will turn out.
If he's just teasing, it's also on him.

Honestly, would rather see him play P and continuously die to 3hatch hydra rushes But even if it's R that happens, it's going to be interesting.

Tbh, I think Flash would solve early game PvZ given the chance. He just has a much more analytical approach to the game then any protoss player. Bisu doesn't think about how he can safely expand and power up, he thinks about how many different ways can he abuse his opponent to get a big enough edge to take him into the mid game.

thats a pretty gross understatement of bisus understanding of protoss. if you watch any of tbls commentate on their respective races, the knowledge they have is insane. flash has stated that he finds p vs 973 extremely difficult and its very unlikely that hell find a solution before bisu or stork does.

honestly its a shame that most of tl doesnt understand korean. most of the strategy discussion on tl is "start with x build, get y tech, get n expos and macro or push at z timing". the discussions the pros have when they play proleague and watch each other is so detailed and fine tuned its ridiculous. "efficiency" is the main subject line for anything they discuss; their mineral/gas calculations are perfect for specific timings they're looking to hit on the builds they execute, their management of supply is perfect, army management is flawless etc. their theory crafting is on another level.
if you watch jd cast zvz for example its actually ridiculous how deep his knowledge is. hes a fking prophet that can tell you exactly what the cost of a player losing a single zergling at a random point in the game is.
it really puts into perspective how shallow the foreign community's understanding of the game is compared to the pros. i dont think theres a single other game that has such a HUGE skill discrepancy and when you hear their analysis and commentaries you just realise that that gap will never ever get smaller.

also lastly the other pros dont seem to be completely against the idea. some of them rightfully have concerns about build order disadvantages, especially if they meet his terran but for the most part they accept that its going to happen. in my opinion a lot of this is not due to the fact that they think its fair though, its because a wider issue with korean starcraft is that interest is dying and the pros know it. a common topic of discussion between the pros when they discuss starcraft in general is how its a dying scene and they need to do things to keep it alive. this doesnt necessarily mean just more tournaments or games, but the streamers individually have to change things up to create more brand power for themselves so that they can bring the increased interest back into the starcraft community. therefore flash playing random is probably just being accepted as something that the pros will have to accommodate in order to keep the scene alive.


pros who literally play and dissect the game for a living vs armchair dunning kruegers who think hitchhiker is a very exciting sophisticated strategic map (just plug the gap lol how hard is that use your brain!!) and that their 5 min of armchair theorizing makes them able to solve any gameplay conundrum better than the pros could? you don't say.

it seems obvious but yet most people here couldnt even fathom what the level pros think at are.
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10011 Posts
April 21 2020 05:21 GMT
#160
Flash's P is really good, prob only behind Snow/Mini/Best/Rain/Bisu/Stork atm.
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
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