EPT
Flash says he will choose random - Page 6
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1717 Posts
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
On April 19 2020 22:02 prosatan wrote: Original message Goodbye Terran, Hello Random! 이영호 선수는 ASL 시즌9을 마지막으로 13년간의 테란출전은 마무리되었습니다. 랜덤 출전을 고민하고 있는 지금, 이에 대해 궁금한 점을 댓글로 남겨주세요. 댓글들을 모아서 Q&A시간을 가져볼려고합니다 해당컨텐츠는 상황에 따라 진행이 되지 않을 수 있으니 구독자분들의 양해바랍니다 Google translate Lee Young-ho finished ASL Season 9 and his 13-year Terran match has ended. Now that you are considering random appearances, please leave a comment about your question. I'm going to collect comments and have Q & A time. Please note that the content may not be available depending on the situation. Source: https://www.youtube.com/post/UgzWd4MgbKkzjmolYAF4AaABCQ So, it is official now? He will choose random or protoss ? Today Artosis said during the match vs Soma that Flash will pick protoss because it feels more confident with protoss than zerg. But who knows, maybe he will pick random if he is allowed to do that ! All the future tournaments that Flash doesn't win will be followed by a heated debate mostly consisting of ifs and would'ves on if Flash had played Terran in the tourney. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10512 Posts
On April 20 2020 07:41 onlystar wrote: i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons ) Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup. Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT. That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time. Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total. 70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups. But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else. I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1717 Posts
Consider banning Random/switched race only if one thinks it lowers entertainment value of games and/or number of people watching. As of now, it's almost guaranteed to do the exact opposite for the latter. | ||
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SuGo
United States681 Posts
In my opinion, R is a selectable choice, so why not? It's part of the game. It is what it is, if someone feels as confident in doing it, then let them. I think more so would be this factor: correct me if I'm wrong, but RACE PICKING is banned in these professional korean tournaments, but then logically, if R is allowed, then why would race picking still be banned? Should just allow everything at that rate. But I think decisions like this changes the landscape of tournaments and professional brood war quite a bit. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On April 20 2020 22:59 Akio wrote: All the future tournaments that Flash doesn't win will be followed by a heated debate mostly consisting of ifs and would'ves on if Flash had played Terran in the tourney. They shouldn't. Effort, and more recently Zero, have had something to say about that. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1717 Posts
On April 20 2020 23:35 mierin wrote: They shouldn't. Effort, and more recently Zero, have had something to say about that. At this point, really what is the worth of one more [Terran] championship for Flash. Yes, when he loses while playing another race, no doubt there would be discussion of what if he played Terran. But it doesn't really matter. He's not chasing a GOAT title. He already has it. | ||
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rapture
Germany645 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 19 2020 22:07 Jonoman92 wrote: He should've waited for the match countdown to start and change his race in the lobby at that point, duh. Ah, the traditional way of picking random. | ||
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Quincel
119 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden557 Posts
On April 20 2020 23:11 FlaShFTW wrote: Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup. Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT. That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time. Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total. 70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups. But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else. I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents. If this is the case, why was random banned for so many years? Because you don't need to learn 9 matchs up in detail, you can just cheeze before your oponent gets to scout and prepare for you. ZvX? 4 pool PvX? proxy gates TvX? play standard you don't even need to cheeze that early. Lets say he gets a ZvP and the protoss plays super defensive because Flash is random and flash maybe all-ins 50% of games. Flash can decide to 3 hatch before pool and turn that into a hydra all-in or something similar. I'm all for people playing random, but i think it's a stupid RNG element not to know their race, esp for protoss and zerg race. Playing ZvR must be terrible. Letting people random without showing the race also generates bad TV as there prob wont be to many long games. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
On April 21 2020 00:42 A.Alm wrote: If this is the case, why was random banned for so many years? Because you don't need to learn 9 matchs up in detail, you can just cheeze before your oponent gets to scout and prepare for you. ZvX? 4 pool PvX? proxy gates TvX? play standard you don't even need to cheeze that early. Lets say he gets a ZvP and the protoss plays super defensive because Flash is random and flash maybe all-ins 50% of games. Flash can decide to 3 hatch before pool and turn that into a hydra all-in or something similar. I'm all for people playing random, but i think it's a stupid RNG element not to know their race, esp for protoss and zerg race. Playing ZvR must be terrible. You have a great theory there except that we would be seeing a lot of randoms at the top of the ladder if it were true. All those cheeses are easy to stop for a pro, and then you have to play a macro game. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden557 Posts
On April 21 2020 00:44 LG)Sabbath wrote: You have a great theory there except that we would be seeing a lot of randoms at the top of the ladder if it were true. All those cheeses are easy to stop for a pro, and then you have to play a macro game. Playing random in tournaments has been banned for decades. There has been no incentive for pro players to practice it. Can you name one pro players that has dedicated months practicing random on the ladder? All i'm saying is it does not require 200-300% more practice just because they have to use three different races. It's not like 100% of their practice time goes into race specific things. A lot of it is general things that apply for all the races such as micro, macro, game understanding, etc. We have already seen pro players beat other pro players with their off races, and that's without the element of surprise that random gives you. It's also bad for the game to allow people to choose the random race (prob why it has been banned in tournaments) because it promotes cheeze which gives us consumers shorter and less skillful games. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10512 Posts
On April 21 2020 00:42 A.Alm wrote: If this is the case, why was random banned for so many years? Because you don't need to learn 9 matchs up in detail, you can just cheeze before your oponent gets to scout and prepare for you. ZvX? 4 pool PvX? proxy gates TvX? play standard you don't even need to cheeze that early. Lets say he gets a ZvP and the protoss plays super defensive because Flash is random and flash maybe all-ins 50% of games. Flash can decide to 3 hatch before pool and turn that into a hydra all-in or something similar. I'm all for people playing random, but i think it's a stupid RNG element not to know their race, esp for protoss and zerg race. Playing ZvR must be terrible. Letting people random without showing the race also generates bad TV as there prob wont be to many long games. [citation needed] Also cheese and cheese defense is objectively a form of display of skill. Stop spouting that Idra nonsense where you must learn to macro. Cheese/aggression is an important skill, and so is defense. FlaSh literally got popular for cheese builds, and then became a god when he learned how to defend cheese/aggression. And if all flash has to do is cheese, doesn't that make preparation even easier for the opponent? Can't he just expect FlaSh to cheese if he doesnt roll Terran? Who's to say that the opponent can't also just cheese to counter random. Who's the say that games won't actually last that long? This is pure speculation that isn't even founded upon any evidence. We don't know what the random metagame is going to look like simply because we don't see many random games. Also, how is ZvR terrible? Z arguably has the easiest stime against random because overpool/12h/12p/9p are all viable builds against literally any race. EDIT: Here's a source since you can't seem to provide one. On April 20 2020 09:57 GTR wrote: random was never banned by kespa. random was just banned by pro teams because they don't want their players wasting their time. as someone mentioned before, it was allowed in 2v2 because dual race teams weren't allowed. also if you were a prospective amateur who for whatever reason played random, pro team scouts will immediately tell you to stick to a race else they weren't going to make it professionally. if flash wins the next asl with random, we will never see anything like it ever again in any esport in our lifetime. last person to go true random in an osl/msl btw was elky - 2003/04 nhn hangame osl. suffice to say he quickly went 0-3.  2003-2004 NHN OSLhttps://tl.net/forum/brood-war/9520-elkys-random | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
On April 20 2020 23:11 FlaShFTW wrote: Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup. Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT. That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time. Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total. 70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups. But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else. I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents. you are on the wrong track you are using reason to talk straight the disadvantage that accures from the information gap it simply does not apply here. you can not not in any circumstance say that X vs Y is equal and that they are the same that they start on even ground yes but he has to practice 9matchups so what? fairplay is where 2 players start the game on even ground there will be no advantages or disadvantages from the start. if he would play random thats his choice but his race MUST be shown to the opponent to have the chance of a fair match. | ||
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APurpleCow
United States1372 Posts
On April 21 2020 01:05 A.Alm wrote: Playing random in tournaments has been banned for decades. There has been no incentive for pro players to practice it. Can you name one pro players that has dedicated months practicing random on the ladder? All i'm saying is it does not require 200-300% more practice just because they have to use three different races. It's not like 100% of their practice time goes into race specific things. A lot of it is general things that apply for all the races such as micro, macro, game understanding, etc. We have already seen pro players beat other pro players with their off races, and that's without the element of surprise that random gives you. It's also bad for the game to allow people to choose the random race (prob why it has been banned in tournaments) because it promotes cheeze which gives us consumers shorter and less skillful games. Is it true that random has been banned for decades in tournaments like OSL, MSL, GSL, KSL, and ASL? Is there a source on this? | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
On April 21 2020 01:05 A.Alm wrote: Playing random in tournaments has been banned for decades. There has been no incentive for pro players to practice it. Can you name one pro players that has dedicated months practicing random on the ladder? All i'm saying is it does not require 200-300% more practice just because they have to use three different races. It's not like 100% of their practice time goes into race specific things. A lot of it is general things that apply for all the races such as micro, macro, game understanding, etc. We have already seen pro players beat other pro players with their off races, and that's without the element of surprise that random gives you. It's also bad for the game to allow people to choose the random race (prob why it has been banned in tournaments) because it promotes cheeze which gives us consumers shorter and less skillful games. I feel like you don't play the game seriously otherwise you wouldn't be making these statements. The majority of the time the pros are practicing, they are looking for new timings and builds, not practicing "micro" or "macro", they already have pro-level micro/macro. If they have to play a bo5, they are looking at builds for the 3-4 maps they have to play. If you have 3 races, that's 3 times as many builds. Unless you're planning to 4 pool every map if you get zerg, which would be pretty dumb and predictable. After spending a significant time finding builds, they have to practice them against all possibilities. That takes a lot of time. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10512 Posts
On April 21 2020 01:22 onlystar wrote: you are on the wrong track you are using reason to talk straight the disadvantage that accures from the information gap it simply does not apply here. you can not not in any circumstance say that X vs Y is equal and that they are the same that they start on even ground yes but he has to practice 9matchups so what? fairplay is where 2 players start the game on even ground there will be no advantages or disadvantages from the start. This whole comment doesn't even make an iota of sense. You're telling me that I can't or shouldn't argue from a position of reason? And you conveniently ignore all the previous precedence when it comes to an isolated match? So based upon your statement, if all players should be on even ground, does that mean that if I'm not as good as my opponent, I deserve to play with an extra starting worker? Because I think that would make it so there were no advantages from my opponent's raw skill. Or how about every player must play a mirror match, only one race should be played because there are inherent race advantages in every match with P>T>Z>P. Where do you draw this line? Should Bisu be punished for having such a good PvZ winrate? Should he start with 1 less probe? Should he forced to play the opening with one-hand until 5 minutes? Wtf does this "advantage/disadvantage" even mean? There will always be inherent advantages and disadvantages. Literally all of your points are argued through emotional response. Maybe you got cheesed by randoms on the ladder, I know I do. On April 21 2020 01:23 APurpleCow wrote: Is it true that random has been banned for decades in tournaments like OSL, MSL, GSL, KSL, and ASL? Is there a source on this? https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/95125-vod-julyzergt-vs-chojjaz Here is another time where Random is allowed and it proves that Random was allowed even in proleague. I'm assuming the rule was when coaches submit their lineups, if a player wanted to "race pick" or "roll random" they would have to announce it as they submit the lineup. | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
you are making stuff up advantages/disadvantages ofcourse from 1 player not knowing the race the opponent is playing pretty obvious that skill level practice hours what ever does not matter ure not gonna start a tennis match where you have to play with a broken racket and the other has a brand new one now do you cmon keep it serious | ||
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