|
I'm not a high level player by any means, but Protoss suffers the worst versus random because their build is inseparably tied to their building placement, and they don't have and generically viable builds that offer high percentage outcomes against all three races, and are therefore forced to play either exceptionally safe builds, or risky plays and coin flips that auto-lose to many of Random's vast range of build order choices.
Protoss options are limited by where they can place pylons. Any buildings (including a Nexus first) placed on the low ground or in the natural will become a permanent weakness versus Protoss or a Terran 2 fact. That rules out a PvZ style wall+expansion. So versus Zerg, one base Protoss is relying on gimmicks to win against a Zerg which will only grow stronger over time. Trying to secure an expansion after speedlings take over the natural, but before Zerg gains an unassailable economic advantage, is a difficult scenario. Almost every possible build has a veritable auto-loss against 1/3 of the races when you consider the strength of the pro players and how they can snowball a small advantage into a win. Flipping coins and hoping for certain races is not a great plan when, on average, 1/3 games in your BO3, or 2/7 games in your BO7 will be blind build order losses. At the same time, they lack a central catch-all build with a reasonable chance of winning in all three matchups.
The catch-all build I see recommended to normal, mortal-level players most often is an in-base 2 gate. It works passably versus Protoss, and it can work against Terran and Zerg, but only if they make a mistake and sustain damage, which you cannot rely upon in a professional game. It works in a normal player's game, but in a top-level game where every second and every mineral counts, opening with such a suboptimal build is almost game-ending from the start if your opponent rolls a strong counter race.
Protoss can always cheese with center gates, greedily expand, or scout very early to try and circumvent the Random advantage, and they might work on occasion, but they aren't plans for long-term success.
The other races don't have it so bad. Zerg can 9 pool effectively against all races, although if scouted versus Terran, they are most definitely behind. They can also 11 and 12 hatch in every matchup and only die to cheese if they used a greedy pool timing or if the defense was badly handled. Just having the choice of an effective aggressive build and an economic build means the Random player needs to take more of their opponent's options into consideration when choosing their build. Terran now has effective Factory FE builds in all matchups, and you'd only be behind versus greedier 12 Nex, Rax FE, 3 hatch before pool, or similar builds.
|
United States33479 Posts
god speed, literally 
|
On April 20 2020 14:57 JakePlissken wrote:
I'm not a high level player by any means, but Protoss suffers the worst versus random because their build is inseparably tied to their building placement, and they don't have and generically viable builds that offer high percentage outcomes against all three races, and are therefore forced to play either exceptionally safe builds, or risky plays and coin flips that auto-lose to many of Random's vast range of build order choices.
Protoss options are limited by where they can place pylons. Any buildings (including a Nexus first) placed on the low ground or in the natural will become a permanent weakness versus Protoss or a Terran 2 fact. That rules out a PvZ style wall+expansion. So versus Zerg, one base Protoss is relying on gimmicks to win against a Zerg which will only grow stronger over time. Trying to secure an expansion after speedlings take over the natural, but before Zerg gains an unassailable economic advantage, is a difficult scenario. Almost every possible build has a veritable auto-loss against 1/3 of the races when you consider the strength of the pro players and how they can snowball a small advantage into a win. Flipping coins and hoping for certain races is not a great plan when, on average, 1/3 games in your BO3, or 2/7 games in your BO7 will be blind build order losses. At the same time, they lack a central catch-all build with a reasonable chance of winning in all three matchups.
The catch-all build I see recommended to normal, mortal-level players most often is an in-base 2 gate. It works passably versus Protoss, and it can work against Terran and Zerg, but only if they make a mistake and sustain damage, which you cannot rely upon in a professional game. It works in a normal player's game, but in a top-level game where every second and every mineral counts, opening with such a suboptimal build is almost game-ending from the start if your opponent rolls a strong counter race.
Protoss can always cheese with center gates, greedily expand, or scout very early to try and circumvent the Random advantage, and they might work on occasion, but they aren't plans for long-term success.
The other races don't have it so bad. Zerg can 9 pool effectively against all races, although if scouted versus Terran, they are most definitely behind. They can also 11 and 12 hatch in every matchup and only die to cheese if they used a greedy pool timing or if the defense was badly handled. Just having the choice of an effective aggressive build and an economic build means the Random player needs to take more of their opponent's options into consideration when choosing their build. Terran now has effective Factory FE builds in all matchups, and you'd only be behind versus greedier 12 Nex, Rax FE, 3 hatch before pool, or similar builds.
Yeah Protoss definitely has the toughest time vs random build wise but I don't think 2 gate is a solution, vs a good Protoss and Terran you are behind automatically. The best solution I feel is to do a gateway expand at your nat, vs Terran you are fine as you can just pressure with zealots, expand and go 2-3 gate goon. At the pro level 2 fact is held easily so no one really does it. It's fine vs Zerg as well being one of the common builds.
The only disadvantage is vs an aggressive Protoss as you lose a defensive advantage with 1 gate being on low ground. However depending on the builds as the game progresses this will become insignificant. At the end of the day it's a 66% chance that it works out well and if you manage to survive early game vs Protoss it becomes insignificant.
|
On April 20 2020 14:57 JakePlissken wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm not a high level player by any means, but Protoss suffers the worst versus random because their build is inseparably tied to their building placement, and they don't have and generically viable builds that offer high percentage outcomes against all three races, and are therefore forced to play either exceptionally safe builds, or risky plays and coin flips that auto-lose to many of Random's vast range of build order choices.
Protoss options are limited by where they can place pylons. Any buildings (including a Nexus first) placed on the low ground or in the natural will become a permanent weakness versus Protoss or a Terran 2 fact. That rules out a PvZ style wall+expansion. So versus Zerg, one base Protoss is relying on gimmicks to win against a Zerg which will only grow stronger over time. Trying to secure an expansion after speedlings take over the natural, but before Zerg gains an unassailable economic advantage, is a difficult scenario. Almost every possible build has a veritable auto-loss against 1/3 of the races when you consider the strength of the pro players and how they can snowball a small advantage into a win. Flipping coins and hoping for certain races is not a great plan when, on average, 1/3 games in your BO3, or 2/7 games in your BO7 will be blind build order losses. At the same time, they lack a central catch-all build with a reasonable chance of winning in all three matchups.
The catch-all build I see recommended to normal, mortal-level players most often is an in-base 2 gate. It works passably versus Protoss, and it can work against Terran and Zerg, but only if they make a mistake and sustain damage, which you cannot rely upon in a professional game. It works in a normal player's game, but in a top-level game where every second and every mineral counts, opening with such a suboptimal build is almost game-ending from the start if your opponent rolls a strong counter race.
Protoss can always cheese with center gates, greedily expand, or scout very early to try and circumvent the Random advantage, and they might work on occasion, but they aren't plans for long-term success.
The other races don't have it so bad. Zerg can 9 pool effectively against all races, although if scouted versus Terran, they are most definitely behind. They can also 11 and 12 hatch in every matchup and only die to cheese if they used a greedy pool timing or if the defense was badly handled. Just having the choice of an effective aggressive build and an economic build means the Random player needs to take more of their opponent's options into consideration when choosing their build. Terran now has effective Factory FE builds in all matchups, and you'd only be behind versus greedier 12 Nex, Rax FE, 3 hatch before pool, or similar builds.
Very good post JakePlissken! Protoss is my main race and I confirm that 100%.
Even gateway placement in a PvP is different from a PvT. Not to mention build order,pre-planned strategy etc.
If I am facing random on the ladder I go for one gate ,14 zelot and double scout on a 4 players map
|
Is there anything preventing Flash from playing random from Ro16 to Ro4, followed up by straight up choosing Terran in the finals?
|
On April 20 2020 09:57 GTR wrote:random was never banned by kespa. random was just banned by pro teams because they don't want their players wasting their time. as someone mentioned before, it was allowed in 2v2 because dual race teams weren't allowed. also if you were a prospective amateur who for whatever reason played random, pro team scouts will immediately tell you to stick to a race else they weren't going to make it professionally. if flash wins the next asl with random, we will never see anything like it ever again in any esport in our lifetime. last person to go true random in an osl/msl btw was elky - 2003/04 nhn hangame osl. suffice to say he quickly went 0-3.  2003-2004 NHN OSLhttps://tl.net/forum/brood-war/9520-elkys-random
Grrrr... played random or was he race picking in his 2000 OSL Royal Road run?
|
This sounds pretty exciting, I dont follow bw much but I'm curious. Wouldn't random players in pro play get bigger advantage in longer series? I mean the racepicked player should have a specific strategy or build that he has to practise into all Three MU, this strategy should get more and more figured out the longer the series goes right? For the random player shouldn't it be easier to prepare multiple builds since the R players knows the mathcup and can adjust to whatever strategy the other player is using.
Sounds really hard to prepare several different openings vs a random player since you need to practise every single opening into all Three matchups.
|
I think it's important to note that there is two types of 'random'.
The true-random that picks 'random' as race and genuinely don't know what they'll get.
The semi-random that will pick a specific race per game. (similar to how Scarlett will switch to play Protoss in a match every now and then on a specific map or for a particular matchup)
|
I also wish for random. nice
|
Im actually worried for flash. Learning 3 matchups as a terran is way easier than learning 9 matchups as a random. Theres a reason why no pro uses random, and its a damn good reason. Logic would dictate that Flash would get his butt kicked by taking random, but let the poor guy try i guess.
|
Hasn't he teased changing races before?
|
I mean I love Flash, and even as a terran fan myself I wouldn't mind him playing another race, but considering how often he says things like this and how "this is his final tournament", I'll believe it when I see it lol.
|
some of you are either insane or uninformed taking jabs at him for saying it's his final tourney before army. If you were to see him irl you'll see how fked up his scars are on his arm and hand from surgery. He's not just whining about a little pain, shit is serious.
|
After 22 years, someone beats StarCraft and decides to start a new playthrough
|
|
|
Bisutopia19298 Posts
I've always been a fan of a format where you can roll random, but you type your race in chat once the game has loaded. IMO, that is the greatest way to show your skill and eliminate all advantages.
|
On April 20 2020 21:02 BisuDagger wrote:
I've always been a fan of a format where you can roll random, but you type your race in chat once the game has loaded. IMO, that is the greatest way to show your skill and eliminate all advantages.
+1 BisuDagger !
But remember, during the kespa era players weren't allowed to say anything during the game, except pp or ppp.
I don't think they have this restriction now; or maybe the organizers will make an exception 
|
FlaSh's skill level is not high enough to give him an advantage as random when getting Protoss or Zerg. However, if he get's Terran as random, then he will be at an advantage for sure, as it will just be a normal game for him, but his opponent will be handicapped as to what race FlaSh actually is.
Anyone who thinks FlaSh benefits from playing random overall compared to him only playing T is clueless!
|
On April 20 2020 21:02 BisuDagger wrote:
I've always been a fan of a format where you can roll random, but you type your race in chat once the game has loaded. IMO, that is the greatest way to show your skill and eliminate all advantages.
alot of players dont want to keep their opponent guessing its just not fair to hide your race people with an understanding of fairplay will say their race in game.
|
Bisutopia19298 Posts
On April 20 2020 21:24 prosatan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2020 21:02 BisuDagger wrote:
I've always been a fan of a format where you can roll random, but you type your race in chat once the game has loaded. IMO, that is the greatest way to show your skill and eliminate all advantages. +1 BisuDagger ! But remember, during the kespa era players weren't allowed to say anything during the game, except pp or ppp. I don't think they have this restriction now; or maybe the organizers will make an exception
Maybe if you type PP at 8 seconds it's Protoss, at 10 it is zerg, and at 12 it is terran. Then when they ask you what's wrong, you show them a fake spider and tell the refs that Shine was playing pranks on your booth again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
