EPTOn April 21 2020 01:30 onlystar wrote:
its simple maths you are very emotional
its simple maths you are very emotional
You've convinced me. What a fantastic argument.
Your logic is bad and you should feel bad.
Flash says he will choose random - Page 7
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FlaShFTW
United States10515 Posts
You've convinced me. What a fantastic argument. Your logic is bad and you should feel bad. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 21 2020 01:30 onlystar wrote: its simple maths you are very emotional you are making stuff up advantages/disadvantages ofcourse from 1 player not knowing the race the opponent is playing pretty obvious that skill level practice hours what ever does not matter ure not gonna start a tennis match where you have to play with a broken racket and the other has a brand new one now do you cmon keep it serious Vision is that you? | ||
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
Playing random is a game function available to everyone  | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
it is cool to see him try to explore a new dimension to the game. I think it can fairly be said that he is almost up there with people like Boxer, iloveoov and Nal Ra in terms of his contribution to bw meta. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On April 20 2020 08:33 oshibori_probe wrote: Anyone going random in the ASL strikes me as really diminishing the value of preparation on either side. Maybe its not a horrible thing but I don't see any positives after the initial novelty wears off. For the viewer, there would be a greater variety within a single BoX match and very small chance of a set being a pure mirror matchup that viewers dislike (lots of people skip watching mirrors). It's possible to have a higher chance of scrappier and more interesting games because players will more likely get into uncharted territory rather than playing a game purely within theory. It's usually interesting to see how good players think on their feet. Back in the day players used to emphasize getting to the mid and late game and winning there, and late game situations usually have a lot of novelty to them because they're hard to prepare for. The trend shifted in the last few years to shorter games that are easier to prepare for with higher risk higher reward strategies. It would be nice (for me) to see that pendulum shift back to a longer style and format where players quickly get into uncharted territory and don't want to risk some precise all in designed to break the opponent just before they have x. | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1717 Posts
On April 21 2020 01:27 FlaShFTW wrote: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/95125-vod-julyzergt-vs-chojjaz Here is another time where Random is allowed and it proves that Random was allowed even in proleague. I'm assuming the rule was when coaches submit their lineups, if a player wanted to "race pick" or "roll random" they would have to announce it as they submit the lineup. I guess this brings up the question of whether your opponent should now beforehand what race you intend to play. I guess for the sake of baby steps, he should. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
Plus: defending against agressive openings with limited scouting information is a important part of the skill set in BW. Because that's what it boils down to. In theory, while having an BO advantage in the early, the random player should fall of/lose advantage against his opp starting from the midgame because the player who focusses on 1 Race is better in the given MU played. Regarding as to Flash motivation: from my impression he is doing this to lift the pressure of expectation from himself and to have more fun while playing. Every race is hard to play and Flash is the best player of today's era, but he will not be the best toss or zerg imo. I expect him to do mediocre in starleagues where he plays full random and has equally strong competition as today. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden557 Posts
On April 21 2020 01:15 FlaShFTW wrote: Also cheese and cheese defense is objectively a form of display of skill. Stop spouting that Idra nonsense where you must learn to macro. Cheese/aggression is an important skill, and so is defense. FlaSh literally got popular for cheese builds, and then became a god when he learned how to defend cheese/aggression. And if all flash has to do is cheese, doesn't that make preparation even easier for the opponent? Can't he just expect FlaSh to cheese if he doesnt roll Terran? Who's to say that the opponent can't also just cheese to counter random. Who's the say that games won't actually last that long? This is pure speculation that isn't even founded upon any evidence. We don't know what the random metagame is going to look like simply because we don't see many random games. Also, how is ZvR terrible? Z arguably has the easiest stime against random because overpool/12h/12p/9p are all viable builds against literally any race. EDIT: Here's a source since you can't seem to provide one. 1) You're the one saying people must learn every detail of 9 match ups which i assume includes late game macro, not me. 2) As i said earlier a cheeze can be defensive and offensive. It's impossible to prepare for both. It's a coin-toss on cocaine when up against random. 3) Sure you can cheeze against random, you'll just be at a disadvantage because you don't know what race they're playing 4) yes it is pure speculation, but so are your mathematical equations to show that "2.33x time with random = 1x time with one race". You're the one who turned speculation into "bullet proof mathematics", not me... 5) The only thing that link proves is that random was allowed in one tournament, 16 years ago. Anyways, here's a link stating that random was banned in some tournaments  Random -> "Additionally, the inclusion of rules forbidding to play random in tournaments played a role in the decline of random players". 6) saying random is 3x harder because you have to learn 3 races instead of 1 is like saying aoe2 is 10x harder than SCBW because it has 30 civs/races instead of 3. On April 21 2020 00:44 LG)Sabbath wrote: I feel like you don't play the game seriously otherwise you wouldn't be making these statements. The majority of the time the pros are practicing, they are looking for new timings and builds, not practicing "micro" or "macro", they already have pro-level micro/macro. If they have to play a bo5, they are looking at builds for the 3-4 maps they have to play. If you have 3 races, that's 3 times as many builds. Unless you're planning to 4 pool every map if you get zerg, which would be pretty dumb and predictable. After spending a significant time finding builds, they have to practice them against all possibilities. That takes a lot of time. Wow, that's a great argument. "Hmm, you must not be serious about X or else you wouldn't make these statements". I am going to use this argument for everything from now on. Brilliant. But lets pretend you didn't just say that. Yes learning a few build orders for each match up takes some times, but these guys already know most of them pretty good, and the build order prob come natural to them because they have such a good understanding of the game. If you know a few early / mid game cheezes you're all set because defending against f.e muta all in vs hydra all in (PvZ) requires very different responses. It's hard to scout the all in and you can't prepare for both. It mostly comes down to micro and having a general high-level understanding of the game (f.e knowing when to keep attacking and when to stop). I also bet you every pro player know the build orders for these two builds without even trying to learn them. On April 21 2020 02:05 Chef wrote: For the viewer, there would be a greater variety within a single BoX match and very small chance of a set being a pure mirror matchup that viewers dislike (lots of people skip watching mirrors). It's possible to have a higher chance of scrappier and more interesting games because players will more likely get into uncharted territory rather than playing a game purely within theory. It's usually interesting to see how good players think on their feet. Back in the day players used to emphasize getting to the mid and late game and winning there, and late game situations usually have a lot of novelty to them because they're hard to prepare for. The trend shifted in the last few years to shorter games that are easier to prepare for with higher risk higher reward strategies. It would be nice (for me) to see that pendulum shift back to a longer style and format where players quickly get into uncharted territory and don't want to risk some precise all in designed to break the opponent just before they have x. It's always 1/3 to get mirror match up, it doesn't matter if someone (or both players) pick random or not. Sure, the mirror match ups would be more spread out but it's still the same amount in the end, just that it's random. But yeah, the games would for sure be more random and there for be more scrappier. I can understand how some people would enjoy this, but i personally feel that a tournament like ASL/OSL/MSL is great because people can prepare for the match up and the map. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10515 Posts
On April 21 2020 02:36 A.Alm wrote: 1) You're the one saying people must learn every detail of 9 match ups which i assume includes late game macro, not me. 2) As i said earlier a cheeze can be defensive and offensive. It's impossible to prepare for both. It's a coin-toss on cocaine when up against random. 3) Sure you can cheeze against random, you'll just be at a disadvantage because you don't know what race they're playing 4) yes it is pure speculation, but so are your mathematical equations to show that "2.33x time with random = 1x time with one race". You're the one who turned speculation into "bullet proof mathematics", not me... 5) The only thing that link proves is that random was allowed in one tournament, 16 years ago. Anyways, here's a link stating that random was banned in some tournaments Random -> "Additionally, the inclusion of rules forbidding to play random in tournaments played a role in the decline of random players". 6) saying random is 3x harder because you have to learn 3 races instead of 1 is like saying aoe2 is 10x harder than SCBW because it has 30 civs/races instead of 3. Wow, that's a great argument. "Hmm, you must not be serious about X or else you wouldn't make these statements". I am going to use this argument for everything from now on. Brilliant. But lets pretend you didn't just say that. Yes learning a few build orders for each match up takes some times, but these guys already know most of them pretty good, and the build order prob come natural to them because they have such a good understanding of the game. If you know a few early / mid game cheezes you're all set because defending against f.e muta all in vs hydra all in (PvZ) requires very different responses. It's hard to scout the all in and you can't prepare for both. It mostly comes down to micro and having a general high-level understanding of the game (f.e knowing when to keep attacking and when to stop). I also bet you every pro player know the build orders for these two builds without even trying to learn them. It's always 1/3 to get mirror match up, it doesn't matter if someone (or both players) pick random or not. Sure, the mirror match ups would be more spread out but it's still the same amount in the end, just that it's random. But yeah, the games would for sure be more random and there for be more scrappier. I can understand how some people would enjoy this, but i personally feel that a tournament like ASL/OSL/MSL is great because people can prepare for the match up and the map. The page has no source. You still can't provide solid evidence. This page also isn't monitored heavily by Liquipedia. If this were a more detailed page, liquipedia admins would've attached a "citation needed" footnote to the claim. I'm asking you to provide a list of tournaments where random is banned. Some rulesets maybe from past tournaments? | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Macro-wise, a lot of these guys are close in level and even Flash himself mentioned this so as long as the player in question can plan accordingly for the possible scenarios, it'll be a close match and even more if its Flash. In this case, it's a tossup as to how much of an advantage Flash will get if he main-ed Random and didn't state his race at the start. I'd personally much prefer he actually choose protoss or zerg and learned the race as much as possible rather than him banking on trying to learn the other 6 matchup (well, technically 4 since Flash likely knows the timings in ZvT/PvT to some degree) and plan for the possibilities. Either way, no use in debating this further imo. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden557 Posts
On April 21 2020 03:02 FlaShFTW wrote: The page has no source. You still can't provide solid evidence. This page also isn't monitored heavily by Liquipedia. If this were a more detailed page, liquipedia admins would've attached a "citation needed" footnote to the claim. I'm asking you to provide a list of tournaments where random is banned. Some rulesets maybe from past tournaments? Hahaha. You are the one who started all this with your "People understand so little about starcraft!!" and "Hmm maybe flash can use 60% of his terran skills here, and 25% of it here and that means 2.33x time with random = 1x time with one race" and then you send me a link to ONE tournament 16 years ago that had a random player in it. I'm sorry but i cannot compete with this quality of solid evidence so i have to forfeit this argument. Gg. | ||
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tec27
United States3702 Posts
On April 21 2020 02:36 A.Alm wrote: It's always 1/3 to get mirror match up, it doesn't matter if someone (or both players) pick random or not. Sure, the mirror match ups would be more spread out but it's still the same amount in the end, just that it's random. But yeah, the games would for sure be more random and there for be more scrappier. I can understand how some people would enjoy this, but i personally feel that a tournament like ASL/OSL/MSL is great because people can prepare for the match up and the map. This is incorrect, it's a 1/3 probability for a mirror matchup if only a single player picks random, but a 1/24 probability if both players pick random. Random race assignment is not a pure dice roll, and explicitly attempts to assign races "evenly". I explained the algorithm in this post | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10515 Posts
On April 21 2020 03:14 A.Alm wrote: Hahaha. You are the one who started all this with your "People understand so little about starcraft!!" and "Hmm maybe flash can use 60% of his terran skills here, and 25% of it here and that means 2.33x time with random = 1x time with one race" and then you send me a link to ONE tournament 16 years ago that had a random player in it. I'm sorry but i cannot compete with this quality of solid evidence so i have to forfeit this argument. Gg. Your argument is dismissing the level of knowledge of the game by simplifying it to just say "well, they can cheese and that inherent advantage of cheesing, ignoring everything else, is substantial to prove that random is unfair." You then also make the point that "random has been banned for years" while failing to prove a single tournament where random was banned. I've provided two instances where random was allowed, both in an individual league, and proleague. You have provided 0 tournaments. Seems like you're just dodging the fact that you made an unsubstantiated claim and are now dodging the need for a citation. The idea of breaking down total skill needed to play all 3 races was first, an estimate. You can agree or disagree with my assessment, you should prove your assessment. I believe that my relative estimate of time you need to learn all 3 races is close to correct. I don't play AOE. I don't know the units in the game nor the similarities between each civ. Based upon my cursory look into the civs, it seems like there are UNIQUE benefits from playing each civ, but by and far each civ seems to have MOST of the EXACT SAME units and tech trees. So no, your assessment that AOE would be 30x harder is actually incorrect because your knowledge of the general game carries over from civ to civ. In Starcraft, your general knowledge of Terran does not carry over to Protoss besides the PvT matchup because you understand the fundamentals already having played TvP. You dodge harder than Bigfan dodges me in games. | ||
Liquid`Zephyr
United States996 Posts
its tourney legal and even just looking at face value - few have ever tried it (all poorly) so it probably is disadvantageous. i think when you start looking into the amount of ingame knowledge, the difficulty of niche matchups (e.g. non z player playing zvz) it seems clear to me that playing r is disadvantageous. obviously among people who play all 3 races perfectly, selecting R would be an advantage, but i think the gap between where a persons skill level has to be and where the other persons skill level has to be relative to theirs isn't nearly there. also worth noting, T players confer by far the smallest advantage randoming into their primary race. this would be a more interesting situation (though i'd still be wayyyy in support of it) if a god tier zerg player was switching to random. if flash somehow wins the next asl, +1 to this being the most impressive thing in esports history. i think it will be a great storyline and exciting to watch. im really excited to see some vR BOs too. | ||
Antoine
United States7481 Posts
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KingofdaHipHop
United States25602 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
On April 21 2020 04:14 KingofdaHipHop wrote: The hardest game in the history of humanity was too easy for this guy, hard mode engaged God Mode is too easy, let's bring handicap mode. | ||
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APurpleCow
United States1372 Posts
I don't see the point in banning it at this point--let's let it play out for at least one tournament. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1602 Posts
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