이영호 선수는 ASL 시즌9을 마지막으로 13년간의 테란출전은 마무리되었습니다. 랜덤 출전을 고민하고 있는 지금, 이에 대해 궁금한 점을 댓글로 남겨주세요. 댓글들을 모아서 Q&A시간을 가져볼려고합니다
해당컨텐츠는 상황에 따라 진행이 되지 않을 수 있으니 구독자분들의 양해바랍니다
Google translate
Lee Young-ho finished ASL Season 9 and his 13-year Terran match has ended. Now that you are considering random appearances, please leave a comment about your question. I'm going to collect comments and have Q & A time.
Please note that the content may not be available depending on the situation.
So, it is official now? He will choose random or protoss ? Today Artosis said during the match vs Soma that Flash will pick protoss because it feels more confident with protoss than zerg. But who knows, maybe he will pick random if he is allowed to do that !
Flash's raign will continue! My electric romeo, lets go! Flash fighting!
There are only 2 protosses in top 25 ladder players. Rest is all zerg and terran. So protoss is far from overpowered at the top level. This makes me even more surprised that Flash would consider maining protoss.
Also flash's youtube page has a big "Random" logo at the top now, so it looks like random it is, rather than protoss or zerg
Wow! Can't wait to see it happen. Imagine if he wins random? No one will say terran OP again. Also choosing random benefits him more than choosing Z or P.
I don't think it's fair towards other players to choose random, unless random means him saying his race in the chat at the beginning of the game. So, the other player could plan how to play before scouting him.
On April 19 2020 23:40 arbiter_md wrote: I don't think it's fair towards other players to choose random, unless random means him saying his race in the chat at the beginning of the game. So, the other player could plan how to play before scouting him.
if it wasn't fair then you would have every pro playing random. It's a minor advantage offset by the massive disadvantage of having to play 3 races (and know exact timings, the meta, new developments of 9 matchups) at the highest level.
is this allowed? i thought it was a rule that you couldnt play as random in certain high level tournaments? im also curious to how other pros view this? playing vs random is a lot more of a dice roll with opening builds
On April 20 2020 00:01 castleeMg wrote: is this allowed? i thought it was a rule that you couldnt play as random in certain high level tournaments? im also curious to how other pros view this? playing vs random is a lot more of a dice roll with opening builds
iirc that rule was removed a long time ago, we've seen random players in korean tourneys pop up once in a while, most recently BishOp played random in castermuses league.
On April 20 2020 00:01 castleeMg wrote: is this allowed? i thought it was a rule that you couldnt play as random in certain high level tournaments? im also curious to how other pros view this? playing vs random is a lot more of a dice roll with opening builds
iirc that rule was removed a long time ago, we've seen random players in korean tourneys pop up once in a while, most recently BishOp played random in castermuses league.
iirc random was never banned. Race picking for certain match ups was. At least for kespa.
On April 20 2020 00:01 castleeMg wrote: is this allowed? i thought it was a rule that you couldnt play as random in certain high level tournaments? im also curious to how other pros view this? playing vs random is a lot more of a dice roll with opening builds
iirc that rule was removed a long time ago, we've seen random players in korean tourneys pop up once in a while, most recently BishOp played random in castermuses league.
iirc random was never banned. Race picking for certain match ups was. At least for kespa.
I believe random was banned for a while during old proleague format. Iirc it was something like ZZ in 2v2 was banned -> people played ZR to have a chance to get ZZ, but after that random was banned from 2v2 and 1v1 for a bit. I could be wrong tho.
On April 20 2020 00:37 True_Spike wrote: Oh, yes! Please, play random. Actual random, don't race pick.
you aren't allowed to racepick in tournaments, so it will be actual random.
Are you not? Savior notably picked Terran against GoRush. I thought you were allowed to play only 1 race in the courage tournaments, but it was free game in prep format.
On April 19 2020 23:40 arbiter_md wrote: I don't think it's fair towards other players to choose random, unless random means him saying his race in the chat at the beginning of the game. So, the other player could plan how to play before scouting him.
I REALLY don't get why people say it's not fair. You handicap yourself but needing to familiarize ALL 9 matchups instead of just 3 which outweighs the slight advantage of the opponent not knowing your race for the start of the game.
On April 19 2020 23:40 arbiter_md wrote: I don't think it's fair towards other players to choose random, unless random means him saying his race in the chat at the beginning of the game. So, the other player could plan how to play before scouting him.
I REALLY don't get why people say it's not fair. You handicap yourself but needing to familiarize ALL 9 matchups instead of just 3 which outweighs the slight advantage of the opponent not knowing your race for the start of the game.
This is true, generally speaking. That is, if we talk about normal mortals who struggle to play even one race well.
But in the case of s.o. like Flash, with all the experience they have with off-racing, the "slight advantage" of playing random is actually HUGE. Flash knows all the vT matchups well anyway, and played tons of ZvP/PvZ up until this point. As his off-race sessions on ladder prove, it's not even that big of a handicap to him.
A player of his caliber playing random forces the opponent to either roll the dice or to go down a narrow path of build-order options which Flash can anticipate. It forces them to send out scouts much earlier than usual.
I think this is not to be underestimated on the highest level. Even on lower ranks it can be hard to play vs someone who goes off-race or random if they have a lot of experience with that, even more so if they get their favorite matchups.
edit: I don't say they should forbid it btw. If anything then this will spice things up.
On April 19 2020 23:40 arbiter_md wrote: I don't think it's fair towards other players to choose random, unless random means him saying his race in the chat at the beginning of the game. So, the other player could plan how to play before scouting him.
I REALLY don't get why people say it's not fair. You handicap yourself but needing to familiarize ALL 9 matchups instead of just 3 which outweighs the slight advantage of the opponent not knowing your race for the start of the game.
Its a massive advantage, and flash is already familiar with all 9 matchups, hes beaten light and larva with toss, brain with zerg, etc. Flash with random will be stronger than flash with T, because his opponents will have to limit themselves to suboptimal, weak openings that cover all 3 races and can scout early. In certain matchups thats basically an auto loss if the skill level is high enough.
Random should be banned from tournaments if its not already, because it is imbalanced. A huge, unfair advantage is given to one player, and not to another. You do not really have to learn 9 matchups in their entirety either to play random, you only have to learn how to counter the way the opponents race is forced to play vs random. Any advantage early enough outweighs being outplayed later in the game, and sometimes that advantage is too large to overcome even by a superior player.
Random is good vs p but against pro terran and zerg its not that great. It would be interesting to see.
Pro terrans are good at handling cheese which is randoms greatest strength vs T (huge risks and rewards or very aggressive). A pro terran can just like 1 rax expand most maps and go into a normal game and not too far behind if the random player goes very greedy eco.
Pro zergs, sure the zvz pull can be tough but in a bo3, bo5, bo7 series can the pro zerg just 12 hatch every game?
I think it will be interesting to see if random flash can win zvt, zvz, pvz. Those are his hurdles
On April 20 2020 00:01 castleeMg wrote: is this allowed? i thought it was a rule that you couldnt play as random in certain high level tournaments? im also curious to how other pros view this? playing vs random is a lot more of a dice roll with opening builds
iirc that rule was removed a long time ago, we've seen random players in korean tourneys pop up once in a while, most recently BishOp played random in castermuses league.
iirc random was never banned. Race picking for certain match ups was. At least for kespa.
I believe random was banned for a while during old proleague format. Iirc it was something like ZZ in 2v2 was banned -> people played ZR to have a chance to get ZZ, but after that random was banned from 2v2 and 1v1 for a bit. I could be wrong tho.
ZZ was indeed banned from 2v2. For 1v1 i don't recall.
Really really nice to see him do this. I hope he can continue to live his dreams as a player.
I mean...does anyone actually believe he's going to do this? He's been claiming for years he's retiring or switching races, yet hasn't. It'd definitely be interesting to see but I'm not going to believe it until I actually see it in a tournament.
On April 19 2020 23:40 arbiter_md wrote: I don't think it's fair towards other players to choose random, unless random means him saying his race in the chat at the beginning of the game. So, the other player could plan how to play before scouting him.
I REALLY don't get why people say it's not fair. You handicap yourself but needing to familiarize ALL 9 matchups instead of just 3 which outweighs the slight advantage of the opponent not knowing your race for the start of the game.
Its a massive advantage, and flash is already familiar with all 9 matchups, hes beaten light and larva with toss, brain with zerg, etc. Flash with random will be stronger than flash with T, because his opponents will have to limit themselves to suboptimal, weak openings that cover all 3 races and can scout early. In certain matchups thats basically an auto loss if the skill level is high enough.
Random should be banned from tournaments if its not already, because it is imbalanced. A huge, unfair advantage is given to one player, and not to another. You do not really have to learn 9 matchups in their entirety either to play random, you only have to learn how to counter the way the opponents race is forced to play vs random. Any advantage early enough outweighs being outplayed later in the game, and sometimes that advantage is too large to overcome even by a superior player.
Dragon you racepick pretty much just one matchup. You got ZvP and PvZ down from both races. Flash has to pratice 9 matchups to your 2 matchups and he has 1/3 the practice time for each race.
Yeah, Random seems pretty overpowered when you give it to Flash. I'd say that he's probably the only player in the world that could make an argument for Random being too strong, because he has none of the weaknesses that Random players normally suffer from. He's beaten Jaedong, Larva, Zero, and other top Zergs in ZvZ despite almost never practicing it, played Zerg in competitive 2v2 matches on a whim with success, and revolutionized TvZ several times, so he's not lacking Zerg skill or game knowledge by any means. His Protoss was in the top 10 on ladder for a long time. Now imagine Flash playing random versus Protoss, where his opponent has no all-purpose vs. Random build. That pour soul is forced to either 2 gate and pray that they didn't just open 2 gate against the best TvP in the world, or go ultra greedy and hope Flash is Terran and also not cheesing. Coin flips in the opening never seem go in your favor when you're playing Flash, no matter what race he's playing. Wheras Light's attempt at Protoss was just a rash impulse, I think Flash can actually do really well with Random, and he knows it. It will be interesting to see.
In the ASL interview it didn't seem like he wanted to play Random. I think he just wants to take some pressure off himself by not maining the race he's famous for (so it's less disappointment for fans if he loses) and maybe he perceives Terran to be a more mechanically (and thus harder on his arm and shoulder) race to play, so he'd rather go for a race that can win more purely through strategy and mind games. Even his TvTs this season he didn't want to play one hour TvTs, he expressly said he was going to try to make them short before they even started.
I think it's kinda silly to worry about Random being imbalanced at a top level. But I do think people perceive random vs a person who chose race to be much more volatile, which could create a player whose games all look like ZvZ no matter who they play against. 12h vs 12pool, similar feeling people have when they play protoss and one base vs expanding random zerg. But the longer the game goes on the harder it is for the random player to be well prepared vs a variety of tactics and stratagems (which further pushes the idea that random players are incentivized to end games quickly with cheeses or economic leads for one timing). Anyway, we've never seen it so it's all theorycraft what would happen. Just like a new and weird map seems like it has one dominant way to play, as soon as it gets 100 games that way changes. If we're too conservative about this stuff we get boring decisions like every game being played on FS and that's also bad for the spectator.
I'd kinda love to see an off brand random only tournament though, because rvr usually leads to a lot of one base shenanigans that are quite fun. Of course it's not so fun when one player gets their normal main race and the other their off race. Would be cool to make a UMS map maybe, where you get either one of your two off races but never your main. Not so hard to do... select your main race, at the start of the game it replaces your town hall and peons with one of the two races you didn't pick.
People complaining that ONE PLAYER would get the advantage from going random. Guess what? Other players should be better then to use that advantage. Get over it lmfao imagine trying to ban someone for being too good.
On April 20 2020 06:23 FlaShFTW wrote: People complaining that ONE PLAYER would get the advantage from going random. Guess what? Other players should be better then to use that advantage. Get over it lmfao imagine trying to ban someone for being too good.
this is the day and age we live in unfortunately feelsbadman
On April 20 2020 06:23 FlaShFTW wrote: People complaining that ONE PLAYER would get the advantage from going random. Guess what? Other players should be better then to use that advantage. Get over it lmfao imagine trying to ban someone for being too good.
I'm kinda surprised that you didn't think people would complain about this, the game is over 20 years old and people have always complained about racepicking and randoming, and always will.
I'm gonna be honest, Flash is gonna get his butt whooped if he plays anything other than T. Of course he's the best player in the world but taking games off progamers on ladder is not way equivalent to taking sets in ASL. He would be lucky to get passed group stages.
That being said I really hope he switches to P or goes Random. I think it would be really exciting to see what would happen. I think they should experiment with removing the random ban and also allow players to choose race in between games and opponents. It would add a new dimension to the game. For all we know the 'vs R meta' just needs to be explored a bit. R might be strong on 4 player maps but its weaker on 2 player maps. Maybe players will just start scouting earlier or developing totally new builds that are more resilient to R. Or maybe they will counter by choosing R themselves lol. The only way we can know is if we see it.
On April 20 2020 07:13 puppykiller wrote: I'm gonna be honest, Flash is gonna get his butt whooped if he plays anything other than T. Of course he's the best player in the world but taking games off progamers on ladder is not way equivalent to taking sets in ASL. He would be lucky to get passed group stages.
That being said I really hope he switches to P or goes Random. I think it would be really exciting to see what would happen. I think they should experiment with removing the random ban and also allow players to choose race in between games and opponents. It would add a new dimension to the game. For all we know the 'vs R meta' just needs to be explored a bit. R might be strong on 4 player maps but its weaker on 2 player maps. Maybe players will just start scouting earlier or developing totally new builds that are more resilient to R. Or maybe they will counter by choosing R themselves lol. The only way we can know is if we see it.
Hes been going vs other pros with offrace and has been doing pretty decent for while
i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons )
Flash's raign will continue! My electric romeo, lets go! Flash fighting!
There are only 2 protosses in top 25 ladder players. Rest is all zerg and terran. So protoss is far from overpowered at the top level. This makes me even more surprised that Flash would consider maining protoss.
Also flash's youtube page has a big "Random" logo at the top now, so it looks like random it is, rather than protoss or zerg
top ladder does NOT display balance..
its just a matter who is pushing ladder for progamers currently protoss pros are chilling at ladder games.
On April 20 2020 07:41 onlystar wrote: i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons )
I doubt he's doing it explicitly for the advantage, I think he's doing it because he knows that his offraces are better than most top players' main races, and that he has a decent chance of winning a starleague as random, which would be an unprecedented achievement. I doubt anyone would bat an eye if Zero or Rain decided they were going to random. With Flash it's a different story, because he's demonstrated that he's at least top 10 in the world with any race. No one else had shown that they can play consistently at the top level with any race.
The preparation aspect is not as crippling as you make it sound, because Flash also has to prepare three builds per map. He doesn't know what race he's going to get either. That said, it is much easier for a random player to select an optimal build than it is for the non-random player, because the random player is going to know the exact build they will choose from the start of the game, and the non-random player has to open generically until they are able to scout, which is almost never optimal and results in either an economic disadvantage or early game vulnerability.
it does not matter why he is doing it or his reasons are legitimate or not. its about the unfair advantage that is an undeniable disadvantage that occurs from the start of the game when a racepicker has to play vs a random player
ZvZ godly micro optimization ZvT knows how to defeat his own T ZvP TvT Best at it TvP Best at it TvZ Best at it PvP godly micro/optimization PvT Knows how to defeat his own T PvZ
That just leaves ZvP and PvZ as the questionable matchups in my opinion. But him being S+ he probably already knows how to play those matchups like Effort/Soulkey/Zero and Bisu do. Whether he has the multitask of Bisu or cleverness of Effort we will see when he plays in the tournament.
Regardless, it hasn't been demonstrated that random is/isn't an advantage at the pro level. Sure, we can theorycraft about its potential based on our scrub tier understanding of the game (and I personally think that in Flash's case it is an advantage), but it hasn't been seen professionally since the early 2000's. If the golden child of Brood War wants to play random, it's going to attract tons of viewers to ASL in a way that the same old Terran Flash won't. Afreeca is not going to ban random without seeing a single game simply based on speculation about its strength. And, as their choice of maps has shown, they're willing to try new things without any guarantee that they are balanced or fair. They're a business, and their viewer count always takes precedent over balance.
On April 20 2020 08:13 Alpha-NP- wrote: ZvZ godly micro optimization ZvT knows how to defeat his own T ZvP TvT Best at it TvP Best at it TvZ Best at it PvP godly micro/optimization PvT Knows how to defeat his own T PvZ
That just leaves ZvP and PvZ as the questionable matchups in my opinion. But him being S+ he probably already knows how to play those matchups like Effort/Soulkey/Zero and Bisu do. Whether he has the multitask of Bisu or cleverness of Effort we will see when he plays in the tournament.
He did really well with Protoss on ladder, which means he must have faced a lot of good Zergs to get there, but that still doesn't give us much information about how well he'll play in an offline environment. It makes sense that he might struggle there, because ZvP and PvZ are the matchups in which he's had the least competitive experience.
On April 19 2020 23:40 arbiter_md wrote: I don't think it's fair towards other players to choose random, unless random means him saying his race in the chat at the beginning of the game. So, the other player could plan how to play before scouting him.
I REALLY don't get why people say it's not fair. You handicap yourself but needing to familiarize ALL 9 matchups instead of just 3 which outweighs the slight advantage of the opponent not knowing your race for the start of the game.
I don't get this sentiment. Agree with it or not, I still get it. To a lot of people the scenarios of a) one person being worse at the matchup and trying to win with a trick or b) being as good or better at the matchup and having a significant advantage from the first second is not an interesting dilemma.
Anyone going random in the ASL strikes me as really diminishing the value of preparation on either side. Maybe its not a horrible thing but I don't see any positives after the initial novelty wears off.
Amazing that people are complaining about this. Of course, people complaining is a hallmark of BW.
Flash already beat the game as Terran. It's not like the question will be "well sure you can win as random, but what would happen if you stick with one race?".
The game is >20 years old. Let's see something cool!
Personally I think Flash is going to get stomped once people have some time to think about how to play vs. Random. And I'm a huge Flash fan. I think this is way harder than people are making it out to be.
It will be funny if he gets T a disproportionate amount (imagine he gets T twice in a BO3) to keep him alive in earlier stages of a tournament.
Flash randoming into Terran is objectively better than him picking Terran. It’s so odd for people to say that the pros should just “get better” and that the balance lies in the Random player having to prepare 9 matchups.
I’d be surprised if Flash ever lost a game that he randomed into Terran. It’s hard enough planning a build for the number of timings that 1 race can throw at you, let alone 3
random was never banned by kespa. random was just banned by pro teams because they don't want their players wasting their time. as someone mentioned before, it was allowed in 2v2 because dual race teams weren't allowed.
also if you were a prospective amateur who for whatever reason played random, pro team scouts will immediately tell you to stick to a race else they weren't going to make it professionally.
if flash wins the next asl with random, we will never see anything like it ever again in any esport in our lifetime.
last person to go true random in an osl/msl btw was elky - 2003/04 nhn hangame osl. suffice to say he quickly went 0-3.
On April 20 2020 10:33 Alpha-NP- wrote: Any Korean have any information on whether or not Afreeca currently bans Random?
Yeah, at this point I just want a ruling from ASL.
Theorycrafting: For a specific Bo5 between a player who always plays R and a player who always plays T, the two players need to practice the name number of matchups (three matchups: ZvT, PvT, and TvT for the R player, and TvZ, TvP, and TvT for the T player). In the match, R player has the informational advantage of knowing the opponent’s race. Thus, if you look from the perspective of practicing for a single match, R is favored.
However, if you take into account a whole career’s worth of practice hours, a player who always plays R is spreading their practice hours among 9 different matchups, whereas a player who always plays T is spreading their practice hours among 3 different matchups (or *maybe* 5 if you assume a T player would dabble in ZvT and PvT to improve their TvZ and TvP). Thus, in any given Bo5 between an R player and a T player, no matter what matchup gets rolled, the T player will probably have spent three times as many practice hours on that matchup than the R player. If you look from the perspective of total career practice hours, T is favored.
My guess is that R is harder than it sounds.
If you’re Bisu and Flash rolls either P or Z, don’t you breathe a sigh of relief? If you’re Jaedong and Flash rolls either P or Z, don’t you breathe a sigh of relief? Of course, the nightmare for anyone is if Flash randoms into T. That’s worse than if you knew all along that Flash would be T, since you start the game in the dark and Flash isn’t in the dark, and his T was already unstoppable. Still, that’s a 1/3 chance. You have a 2/3 chance to luck out. I’d give most players better odds versus Flash as R than as T.
My biggest worry about players choosing R is that P will have a hard time hedging against both T and Z at the same time.
But I’m less worried about that than I am excited about seeing Flash try R in an ASL. I’m really interested in seeing this happen.
I'll say it again: the other pros can pick Random too. Banning something instead of finding ways to beat it. I hate the current timeline of bitchass weaklings.
If there's no hard rule against random in OSL/MSL, the reason why players don't go random must be because it's more of a disadvantage than an advantage.
And even if a rule existed, we need to find out that the basis for the rule is actually to eliminate such disadvantage, rather than other reasons (e.g. demands from pro-teams since random-ing is distracting and pointless in proleague or matchups becoming too coin-flippy and turning off viewers).
Otherwise, we just have to assume after 20+ years of competitive play, players don't go random in individual leagues because it's harder and counter-productive.
On April 19 2020 22:11 ne4aJIb wrote: I remember in one of his interview, i think after operation, he said he would choose zerg if he could start bw again.
He also said he should've played Protoss in SC2 with the rationale that he'd prefer the defensive style
On April 19 2020 23:40 arbiter_md wrote: I don't think it's fair towards other players to choose random, unless random means him saying his race in the chat at the beginning of the game. So, the other player could plan how to play before scouting him.
I REALLY don't get why people say it's not fair. You handicap yourself but needing to familiarize ALL 9 matchups instead of just 3 which outweighs the slight advantage of the opponent not knowing your race for the start of the game.
Its a massive advantage, and flash is already familiar with all 9 matchups, hes beaten light and larva with toss, brain with zerg, etc. Flash with random will be stronger than flash with T, because his opponents will have to limit themselves to suboptimal, weak openings that cover all 3 races and can scout early. In certain matchups thats basically an auto loss if the skill level is high enough.
Random should be banned from tournaments if its not already, because it is imbalanced. A huge, unfair advantage is given to one player, and not to another. You do not really have to learn 9 matchups in their entirety either to play random, you only have to learn how to counter the way the opponents race is forced to play vs random. Any advantage early enough outweighs being outplayed later in the game, and sometimes that advantage is too large to overcome even by a superior player.
You only say that cause it's Flash and wouldn't apply to any other random player. Yes he has beat top pros with his offrace but he would still be considered an underdog for the opponent's best matchup.
If people complain so much I think Flash wouldn't have a problem just typing his race at the start of the game, I'm sure ASL wouldn't mind either.
Well I just hope he either types his race at the start or someone else rolls the three sided dice for him and he changes the race in the lobby. Protoss is pretty much a garuanteed loss vs random at that level of play. As someone else also mentioned, if he randoms terran its also a free win. I think if anything this will make flash even more scary.
On April 20 2020 10:33 Alpha-NP- wrote: Any Korean have any information on whether or not Afreeca currently bans Random?
Yeah, at this point I just want a ruling from ASL.
Theorycrafting: For a specific Bo5 between a player who always plays R and a player who always plays T, the two players need to practice the name number of matchups (three matchups: ZvT, PvT, and TvT for the R player, and TvZ, TvP, and TvT for the T player). In the match, R player has the informational advantage of knowing the opponent’s race. Thus, if you look from the perspective of practicing for a single match, R is favored.
However, if you take into account a whole career’s worth of practice hours, a player who always plays R is spreading their practice hours among 9 different matchups, whereas a player who always plays T is spreading their practice hours among 3 different matchups (or *maybe* 5 if you assume a T player would dabble in ZvT and PvT to improve their TvZ and TvP). Thus, in any given Bo5 between an R player and a T player, no matter what matchup gets rolled, the T player will probably have spent three times as many practice hours on that matchup than the R player. If you look from the perspective of total career practice hours, T is favored.
My guess is that R is harder than it sounds.
If you’re Bisu and Flash rolls either P or Z, don’t you breathe a sigh of relief? If you’re Jaedong and Flash rolls either P or Z, don’t you breathe a sigh of relief? Of course, the nightmare for anyone is if Flash randoms into T. That’s worse than if you knew all along that Flash would be T, since you start the game in the dark and Flash isn’t in the dark, and his T was already unstoppable. Still, that’s a 1/3 chance. You have a 2/3 chance to luck out. I’d give most players better odds versus Flash as R than as T.
My biggest worry about players choosing R is that P will have a hard time hedging against both T and Z at the same time.
But I’m less worried about that than I am excited about seeing Flash try R in an ASL. I’m really interested in seeing this happen.
Come to think of it Terran players are screwed by this the most. If Flash rolls T they're screwed and if he rolls P or Z they're screwed as well since Flash knows exactly how to play against his main race.
As a fan, I'd prefer that he play protoss, since we don't see much representation at the top level right now. If he plays random, he won't be able to innovate the game like he has so many times with terran. Still, it's great that he's still able to play after talking about retiring due to his wrists so many times, and some random games should be entertaining. Also, are some people ITT actually implying that random is an advantage? Do people seriously think that flash's terran will stay at its current level while he splits his practice time between the 3 races? Flash is still a human being, he's not going to have a championship-winning calibre zerg, protoss and terran simultaneously. This is flash handicapping himself in order to keep things fresh and challenging.
also another thing to consider with the change to random is the uniformity in hotkeys given remastered's release - he can rebind a ton of keys to make things easier on him e.g. upgrades from buildings be the same for each race etc. will just make learning mechanics a ton easier.
On April 20 2020 10:33 Alpha-NP- wrote: Any Korean have any information on whether or not Afreeca currently bans Random?
Yeah, at this point I just want a ruling from ASL.
Theorycrafting: For a specific Bo5 between a player who always plays R and a player who always plays T, the two players need to practice the name number of matchups (three matchups: ZvT, PvT, and TvT for the R player, and TvZ, TvP, and TvT for the T player). In the match, R player has the informational advantage of knowing the opponent’s race. Thus, if you look from the perspective of practicing for a single match, R is favored.
However, if you take into account a whole career’s worth of practice hours, a player who always plays R is spreading their practice hours among 9 different matchups, whereas a player who always plays T is spreading their practice hours among 3 different matchups (or *maybe* 5 if you assume a T player would dabble in ZvT and PvT to improve their TvZ and TvP). Thus, in any given Bo5 between an R player and a T player, no matter what matchup gets rolled, the T player will probably have spent three times as many practice hours on that matchup than the R player. If you look from the perspective of total career practice hours, T is favored.
My guess is that R is harder than it sounds.
If you’re Bisu and Flash rolls either P or Z, don’t you breathe a sigh of relief? If you’re Jaedong and Flash rolls either P or Z, don’t you breathe a sigh of relief? Of course, the nightmare for anyone is if Flash randoms into T. That’s worse than if you knew all along that Flash would be T, since you start the game in the dark and Flash isn’t in the dark, and his T was already unstoppable. Still, that’s a 1/3 chance. You have a 2/3 chance to luck out. I’d give most players better odds versus Flash as R than as T.
My biggest worry about players choosing R is that P will have a hard time hedging against both T and Z at the same time.
But I’m less worried about that than I am excited about seeing Flash try R in an ASL. I’m really interested in seeing this happen.
Come to think of it Terran players are screwed by this the most. If Flash rolls T they're screwed and if he rolls P or Z they're screwed as well since Flash knows exactly how to play against his main race.
I have been told by high level players that Protoss is the weakest race when playing a Random choosing opponent.
On April 20 2020 13:28 GTR wrote: also another thing to consider with the change to random is the uniformity in hotkeys given remastered's release - he can rebind a ton of keys to make things easier on him e.g. upgrades from buildings be the same for each race etc. will just make learning mechanics a ton easier.
I'm not a high level player by any means, but Protoss suffers the worst versus random because their build is inseparably tied to their building placement, and they don't have and generically viable builds that offer high percentage outcomes against all three races, and are therefore forced to play either exceptionally safe builds, or risky plays and coin flips that auto-lose to many of Random's vast range of build order choices.
Protoss options are limited by where they can place pylons. Any buildings (including a Nexus first) placed on the low ground or in the natural will become a permanent weakness versus Protoss or a Terran 2 fact. That rules out a PvZ style wall+expansion. So versus Zerg, one base Protoss is relying on gimmicks to win against a Zerg which will only grow stronger over time. Trying to secure an expansion after speedlings take over the natural, but before Zerg gains an unassailable economic advantage, is a difficult scenario. Almost every possible build has a veritable auto-loss against 1/3 of the races when you consider the strength of the pro players and how they can snowball a small advantage into a win. Flipping coins and hoping for certain races is not a great plan when, on average, 1/3 games in your BO3, or 2/7 games in your BO7 will be blind build order losses. At the same time, they lack a central catch-all build with a reasonable chance of winning in all three matchups.
The catch-all build I see recommended to normal, mortal-level players most often is an in-base 2 gate. It works passably versus Protoss, and it can work against Terran and Zerg, but only if they make a mistake and sustain damage, which you cannot rely upon in a professional game. It works in a normal player's game, but in a top-level game where every second and every mineral counts, opening with such a suboptimal build is almost game-ending from the start if your opponent rolls a strong counter race.
Protoss can always cheese with center gates, greedily expand, or scout very early to try and circumvent the Random advantage, and they might work on occasion, but they aren't plans for long-term success.
The other races don't have it so bad. Zerg can 9 pool effectively against all races, although if scouted versus Terran, they are most definitely behind. They can also 11 and 12 hatch in every matchup and only die to cheese if they used a greedy pool timing or if the defense was badly handled. Just having the choice of an effective aggressive build and an economic build means the Random player needs to take more of their opponent's options into consideration when choosing their build. Terran now has effective Factory FE builds in all matchups, and you'd only be behind versus greedier 12 Nex, Rax FE, 3 hatch before pool, or similar builds.
On April 20 2020 14:57 JakePlissken wrote: I'm not a high level player by any means, but Protoss suffers the worst versus random because their build is inseparably tied to their building placement, and they don't have and generically viable builds that offer high percentage outcomes against all three races, and are therefore forced to play either exceptionally safe builds, or risky plays and coin flips that auto-lose to many of Random's vast range of build order choices.
Protoss options are limited by where they can place pylons. Any buildings (including a Nexus first) placed on the low ground or in the natural will become a permanent weakness versus Protoss or a Terran 2 fact. That rules out a PvZ style wall+expansion. So versus Zerg, one base Protoss is relying on gimmicks to win against a Zerg which will only grow stronger over time. Trying to secure an expansion after speedlings take over the natural, but before Zerg gains an unassailable economic advantage, is a difficult scenario. Almost every possible build has a veritable auto-loss against 1/3 of the races when you consider the strength of the pro players and how they can snowball a small advantage into a win. Flipping coins and hoping for certain races is not a great plan when, on average, 1/3 games in your BO3, or 2/7 games in your BO7 will be blind build order losses. At the same time, they lack a central catch-all build with a reasonable chance of winning in all three matchups.
The catch-all build I see recommended to normal, mortal-level players most often is an in-base 2 gate. It works passably versus Protoss, and it can work against Terran and Zerg, but only if they make a mistake and sustain damage, which you cannot rely upon in a professional game. It works in a normal player's game, but in a top-level game where every second and every mineral counts, opening with such a suboptimal build is almost game-ending from the start if your opponent rolls a strong counter race.
Protoss can always cheese with center gates, greedily expand, or scout very early to try and circumvent the Random advantage, and they might work on occasion, but they aren't plans for long-term success.
The other races don't have it so bad. Zerg can 9 pool effectively against all races, although if scouted versus Terran, they are most definitely behind. They can also 11 and 12 hatch in every matchup and only die to cheese if they used a greedy pool timing or if the defense was badly handled. Just having the choice of an effective aggressive build and an economic build means the Random player needs to take more of their opponent's options into consideration when choosing their build. Terran now has effective Factory FE builds in all matchups, and you'd only be behind versus greedier 12 Nex, Rax FE, 3 hatch before pool, or similar builds.
Yeah Protoss definitely has the toughest time vs random build wise but I don't think 2 gate is a solution, vs a good Protoss and Terran you are behind automatically. The best solution I feel is to do a gateway expand at your nat, vs Terran you are fine as you can just pressure with zealots, expand and go 2-3 gate goon. At the pro level 2 fact is held easily so no one really does it. It's fine vs Zerg as well being one of the common builds.
The only disadvantage is vs an aggressive Protoss as you lose a defensive advantage with 1 gate being on low ground. However depending on the builds as the game progresses this will become insignificant. At the end of the day it's a 66% chance that it works out well and if you manage to survive early game vs Protoss it becomes insignificant.
I'm not a high level player by any means, but Protoss suffers the worst versus random because their build is inseparably tied to their building placement, and they don't have and generically viable builds that offer high percentage outcomes against all three races, and are therefore forced to play either exceptionally safe builds, or risky plays and coin flips that auto-lose to many of Random's vast range of build order choices.
Protoss options are limited by where they can place pylons. Any buildings (including a Nexus first) placed on the low ground or in the natural will become a permanent weakness versus Protoss or a Terran 2 fact. That rules out a PvZ style wall+expansion. So versus Zerg, one base Protoss is relying on gimmicks to win against a Zerg which will only grow stronger over time. Trying to secure an expansion after speedlings take over the natural, but before Zerg gains an unassailable economic advantage, is a difficult scenario. Almost every possible build has a veritable auto-loss against 1/3 of the races when you consider the strength of the pro players and how they can snowball a small advantage into a win. Flipping coins and hoping for certain races is not a great plan when, on average, 1/3 games in your BO3, or 2/7 games in your BO7 will be blind build order losses. At the same time, they lack a central catch-all build with a reasonable chance of winning in all three matchups.
The catch-all build I see recommended to normal, mortal-level players most often is an in-base 2 gate. It works passably versus Protoss, and it can work against Terran and Zerg, but only if they make a mistake and sustain damage, which you cannot rely upon in a professional game. It works in a normal player's game, but in a top-level game where every second and every mineral counts, opening with such a suboptimal build is almost game-ending from the start if your opponent rolls a strong counter race.
Protoss can always cheese with center gates, greedily expand, or scout very early to try and circumvent the Random advantage, and they might work on occasion, but they aren't plans for long-term success.
The other races don't have it so bad. Zerg can 9 pool effectively against all races, although if scouted versus Terran, they are most definitely behind. They can also 11 and 12 hatch in every matchup and only die to cheese if they used a greedy pool timing or if the defense was badly handled. Just having the choice of an effective aggressive build and an economic build means the Random player needs to take more of their opponent's options into consideration when choosing their build. Terran now has effective Factory FE builds in all matchups, and you'd only be behind versus greedier 12 Nex, Rax FE, 3 hatch before pool, or similar builds.
Very good post JakePlissken! Protoss is my main race and I confirm that 100%. Even gateway placement in a PvP is different from a PvT. Not to mention build order,pre-planned strategy etc. If I am facing random on the ladder I go for one gate ,14 zelot and double scout on a 4 players map
On April 20 2020 09:57 GTR wrote: random was never banned by kespa. random was just banned by pro teams because they don't want their players wasting their time. as someone mentioned before, it was allowed in 2v2 because dual race teams weren't allowed.
also if you were a prospective amateur who for whatever reason played random, pro team scouts will immediately tell you to stick to a race else they weren't going to make it professionally.
if flash wins the next asl with random, we will never see anything like it ever again in any esport in our lifetime.
last person to go true random in an osl/msl btw was elky - 2003/04 nhn hangame osl. suffice to say he quickly went 0-3.
This sounds pretty exciting, I dont follow bw much but I'm curious. Wouldn't random players in pro play get bigger advantage in longer series? I mean the racepicked player should have a specific strategy or build that he has to practise into all Three MU, this strategy should get more and more figured out the longer the series goes right? For the random player shouldn't it be easier to prepare multiple builds since the R players knows the mathcup and can adjust to whatever strategy the other player is using.
Sounds really hard to prepare several different openings vs a random player since you need to practise every single opening into all Three matchups.
I think it's important to note that there is two types of 'random'.
The true-random that picks 'random' as race and genuinely don't know what they'll get.
The semi-random that will pick a specific race per game. (similar to how Scarlett will switch to play Protoss in a match every now and then on a specific map or for a particular matchup)
Im actually worried for flash. Learning 3 matchups as a terran is way easier than learning 9 matchups as a random. Theres a reason why no pro uses random, and its a damn good reason. Logic would dictate that Flash would get his butt kicked by taking random, but let the poor guy try i guess.
I mean I love Flash, and even as a terran fan myself I wouldn't mind him playing another race, but considering how often he says things like this and how "this is his final tournament", I'll believe it when I see it lol.
some of you are either insane or uninformed taking jabs at him for saying it's his final tourney before army. If you were to see him irl you'll see how fked up his scars are on his arm and hand from surgery. He's not just whining about a little pain, shit is serious.
I've always been a fan of a format where you can roll random, but you type your race in chat once the game has loaded. IMO, that is the greatest way to show your skill and eliminate all advantages.
On April 20 2020 21:02 BisuDagger wrote: I've always been a fan of a format where you can roll random, but you type your race in chat once the game has loaded. IMO, that is the greatest way to show your skill and eliminate all advantages.
+1 BisuDagger !
But remember, during the kespa era players weren't allowed to say anything during the game, except pp or ppp. I don't think they have this restriction now; or maybe the organizers will make an exception
FlaSh's skill level is not high enough to give him an advantage as random when getting Protoss or Zerg. However, if he get's Terran as random, then he will be at an advantage for sure, as it will just be a normal game for him, but his opponent will be handicapped as to what race FlaSh actually is.
Anyone who thinks FlaSh benefits from playing random overall compared to him only playing T is clueless!
On April 20 2020 21:02 BisuDagger wrote: I've always been a fan of a format where you can roll random, but you type your race in chat once the game has loaded. IMO, that is the greatest way to show your skill and eliminate all advantages.
alot of players dont want to keep their opponent guessing its just not fair to hide your race people with an understanding of fairplay will say their race in game.
On April 20 2020 21:02 BisuDagger wrote: I've always been a fan of a format where you can roll random, but you type your race in chat once the game has loaded. IMO, that is the greatest way to show your skill and eliminate all advantages.
+1 BisuDagger !
But remember, during the kespa era players weren't allowed to say anything during the game, except pp or ppp. I don't think they have this restriction now; or maybe the organizers will make an exception
Maybe if you type PP at 8 seconds it's Protoss, at 10 it is zerg, and at 12 it is terran. Then when they ask you what's wrong, you show them a fake spider and tell the refs that Shine was playing pranks on your booth again.
On April 19 2020 22:02 prosatan wrote: Original message
Goodbye Terran, Hello Random!
이영호 선수는 ASL 시즌9을 마지막으로 13년간의 테란출전은 마무리되었습니다. 랜덤 출전을 고민하고 있는 지금, 이에 대해 궁금한 점을 댓글로 남겨주세요. 댓글들을 모아서 Q&A시간을 가져볼려고합니다
해당컨텐츠는 상황에 따라 진행이 되지 않을 수 있으니 구독자분들의 양해바랍니다
Google translate
Lee Young-ho finished ASL Season 9 and his 13-year Terran match has ended. Now that you are considering random appearances, please leave a comment about your question. I'm going to collect comments and have Q & A time.
Please note that the content may not be available depending on the situation.
So, it is official now? He will choose random or protoss ? Today Artosis said during the match vs Soma that Flash will pick protoss because it feels more confident with protoss than zerg. But who knows, maybe he will pick random if he is allowed to do that !
All the future tournaments that Flash doesn't win will be followed by a heated debate mostly consisting of ifs and would'ves on if Flash had played Terran in the tourney.
On April 20 2020 07:41 onlystar wrote: i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons )
Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup.
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total.
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else.
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
As long as everyone is allowed to do so, how can it be unfair? Consider banning Random/switched race only if one thinks it lowers entertainment value of games and/or number of people watching. As of now, it's almost guaranteed to do the exact opposite for the latter.
Whether or not R should be banned, we'll leave it to the authorities at ASL and other major tournament organizers.
In my opinion, R is a selectable choice, so why not? It's part of the game. It is what it is, if someone feels as confident in doing it, then let them.
I think more so would be this factor: correct me if I'm wrong, but RACE PICKING is banned in these professional korean tournaments, but then logically, if R is allowed, then why would race picking still be banned? Should just allow everything at that rate. But I think decisions like this changes the landscape of tournaments and professional brood war quite a bit.
On April 19 2020 22:02 prosatan wrote: Original message
Goodbye Terran, Hello Random!
이영호 선수는 ASL 시즌9을 마지막으로 13년간의 테란출전은 마무리되었습니다. 랜덤 출전을 고민하고 있는 지금, 이에 대해 궁금한 점을 댓글로 남겨주세요. 댓글들을 모아서 Q&A시간을 가져볼려고합니다
해당컨텐츠는 상황에 따라 진행이 되지 않을 수 있으니 구독자분들의 양해바랍니다
Google translate
Lee Young-ho finished ASL Season 9 and his 13-year Terran match has ended. Now that you are considering random appearances, please leave a comment about your question. I'm going to collect comments and have Q & A time.
Please note that the content may not be available depending on the situation.
So, it is official now? He will choose random or protoss ? Today Artosis said during the match vs Soma that Flash will pick protoss because it feels more confident with protoss than zerg. But who knows, maybe he will pick random if he is allowed to do that !
All the future tournaments that Flash doesn't win will be followed by a heated debate mostly consisting of ifs and would'ves on if Flash had played Terran in the tourney.
They shouldn't. Effort, and more recently Zero, have had something to say about that.
On April 19 2020 22:02 prosatan wrote: Original message
Goodbye Terran, Hello Random!
이영호 선수는 ASL 시즌9을 마지막으로 13년간의 테란출전은 마무리되었습니다. 랜덤 출전을 고민하고 있는 지금, 이에 대해 궁금한 점을 댓글로 남겨주세요. 댓글들을 모아서 Q&A시간을 가져볼려고합니다
해당컨텐츠는 상황에 따라 진행이 되지 않을 수 있으니 구독자분들의 양해바랍니다
Google translate
Lee Young-ho finished ASL Season 9 and his 13-year Terran match has ended. Now that you are considering random appearances, please leave a comment about your question. I'm going to collect comments and have Q & A time.
Please note that the content may not be available depending on the situation.
So, it is official now? He will choose random or protoss ? Today Artosis said during the match vs Soma that Flash will pick protoss because it feels more confident with protoss than zerg. But who knows, maybe he will pick random if he is allowed to do that !
All the future tournaments that Flash doesn't win will be followed by a heated debate mostly consisting of ifs and would'ves on if Flash had played Terran in the tourney.
They shouldn't. Effort, and more recently Zero, have had something to say about that.
At this point, really what is the worth of one more [Terran] championship for Flash. Yes, when he loses while playing another race, no doubt there would be discussion of what if he played Terran. But it doesn't really matter. He's not chasing a GOAT title. He already has it.
This "Picking Random gives advantage" discussion is so so stupid... "Yeah sure maybe there were like 20000 pro games in a row with loads of money on the line without a single random victory but it is definitely too strong!"
If this actually happens and he has a deep run it will be the greatest thing in the history of Starcraft by a country mile. And if he were to win an ASL on random...
On April 20 2020 07:41 onlystar wrote: i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons )
Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup.
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total.
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else.
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
If this is the case, why was random banned for so many years? Because you don't need to learn 9 matchs up in detail, you can just cheeze before your oponent gets to scout and prepare for you.
ZvX? 4 pool PvX? proxy gates TvX? play standard
you don't even need to cheeze that early. Lets say he gets a ZvP and the protoss plays super defensive because Flash is random and flash maybe all-ins 50% of games. Flash can decide to 3 hatch before pool and turn that into a hydra all-in or something similar. I'm all for people playing random, but i think it's a stupid RNG element not to know their race, esp for protoss and zerg race. Playing ZvR must be terrible.
Letting people random without showing the race also generates bad TV as there prob wont be to many long games.
On April 20 2020 07:41 onlystar wrote: i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons )
Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup.
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total.
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else.
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
If this is the case, why was random banned for so many years? Because you don't need to learn 9 matchs up in detail, you can just cheeze before your oponent gets to scout and prepare for you.
ZvX? 4 pool PvX? proxy gates TvX? play standard
you don't even need to cheeze that early. Lets say he gets a ZvP and the protoss plays super defensive because Flash is random and flash maybe all-ins 50% of games. Flash can decide to 3 hatch before pool and turn that into a hydra all-in or something similar. I'm all for people playing random, but i think it's a stupid RNG element not to know their race, esp for protoss and zerg race. Playing ZvR must be terrible.
You have a great theory there except that we would be seeing a lot of randoms at the top of the ladder if it were true.
All those cheeses are easy to stop for a pro, and then you have to play a macro game.
On April 20 2020 07:41 onlystar wrote: i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons )
Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup.
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total.
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else.
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
If this is the case, why was random banned for so many years? Because you don't need to learn 9 matchs up in detail, you can just cheeze before your oponent gets to scout and prepare for you.
ZvX? 4 pool PvX? proxy gates TvX? play standard
you don't even need to cheeze that early. Lets say he gets a ZvP and the protoss plays super defensive because Flash is random and flash maybe all-ins 50% of games. Flash can decide to 3 hatch before pool and turn that into a hydra all-in or something similar. I'm all for people playing random, but i think it's a stupid RNG element not to know their race, esp for protoss and zerg race. Playing ZvR must be terrible.
You have a great theory there except that we would be seeing a lot of randoms at the top of the ladder if it were true.
All those cheeses are easy to stop for a pro, and then you have to play a macro game.
Playing random in tournaments has been banned for decades. There has been no incentive for pro players to practice it. Can you name one pro players that has dedicated months practicing random on the ladder?
All i'm saying is it does not require 200-300% more practice just because they have to use three different races. It's not like 100% of their practice time goes into race specific things. A lot of it is general things that apply for all the races such as micro, macro, game understanding, etc. We have already seen pro players beat other pro players with their off races, and that's without the element of surprise that random gives you. It's also bad for the game to allow people to choose the random race (prob why it has been banned in tournaments) because it promotes cheeze which gives us consumers shorter and less skillful games.
On April 20 2020 07:41 onlystar wrote: i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons )
Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup.
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total.
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else.
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
If this is the case, why was random banned for so many years? Because you don't need to learn 9 matchs up in detail, you can just cheeze before your oponent gets to scout and prepare for you.
ZvX? 4 pool PvX? proxy gates TvX? play standard
you don't even need to cheeze that early. Lets say he gets a ZvP and the protoss plays super defensive because Flash is random and flash maybe all-ins 50% of games. Flash can decide to 3 hatch before pool and turn that into a hydra all-in or something similar. I'm all for people playing random, but i think it's a stupid RNG element not to know their race, esp for protoss and zerg race. Playing ZvR must be terrible.
Letting people random without showing the race also generates bad TV as there prob wont be to many long games.
[citation needed]
Also cheese and cheese defense is objectively a form of display of skill. Stop spouting that Idra nonsense where you must learn to macro. Cheese/aggression is an important skill, and so is defense. FlaSh literally got popular for cheese builds, and then became a god when he learned how to defend cheese/aggression.
And if all flash has to do is cheese, doesn't that make preparation even easier for the opponent? Can't he just expect FlaSh to cheese if he doesnt roll Terran? Who's to say that the opponent can't also just cheese to counter random. Who's the say that games won't actually last that long? This is pure speculation that isn't even founded upon any evidence. We don't know what the random metagame is going to look like simply because we don't see many random games. Also, how is ZvR terrible? Z arguably has the easiest stime against random because overpool/12h/12p/9p are all viable builds against literally any race.
EDIT: Here's a source since you can't seem to provide one.
On April 20 2020 09:57 GTR wrote: random was never banned by kespa. random was just banned by pro teams because they don't want their players wasting their time. as someone mentioned before, it was allowed in 2v2 because dual race teams weren't allowed.
also if you were a prospective amateur who for whatever reason played random, pro team scouts will immediately tell you to stick to a race else they weren't going to make it professionally.
if flash wins the next asl with random, we will never see anything like it ever again in any esport in our lifetime.
last person to go true random in an osl/msl btw was elky - 2003/04 nhn hangame osl. suffice to say he quickly went 0-3.
On April 20 2020 07:41 onlystar wrote: i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons )
Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup.
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total.
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else.
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
you are on the wrong track you are using reason to talk straight the disadvantage that accures from the information gap it simply does not apply here. you can not not in any circumstance say that X vs Y is equal and that they are the same that they start on even ground yes but he has to practice 9matchups so what? fairplay is where 2 players start the game on even ground there will be no advantages or disadvantages from the start.
if he would play random thats his choice but his race MUST be shown to the opponent to have the chance of a fair match.
On April 21 2020 01:05 A.Alm wrote: Playing random in tournaments has been banned for decades. There has been no incentive for pro players to practice it. Can you name one pro players that has dedicated months practicing random on the ladder?
All i'm saying is it does not require 200-300% more practice just because they have to use three different races. It's not like 100% of their practice time goes into race specific things. A lot of it is general things that apply for all the races such as micro, macro, game understanding, etc. We have already seen pro players beat other pro players with their off races, and that's without the element of surprise that random gives you. It's also bad for the game to allow people to choose the random race (prob why it has been banned in tournaments) because it promotes cheeze which gives us consumers shorter and less skillful games.
Is it true that random has been banned for decades in tournaments like OSL, MSL, GSL, KSL, and ASL? Is there a source on this?
On April 20 2020 07:41 onlystar wrote: i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons )
Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup.
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total.
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else.
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
If this is the case, why was random banned for so many years? Because you don't need to learn 9 matchs up in detail, you can just cheeze before your oponent gets to scout and prepare for you.
ZvX? 4 pool PvX? proxy gates TvX? play standard
you don't even need to cheeze that early. Lets say he gets a ZvP and the protoss plays super defensive because Flash is random and flash maybe all-ins 50% of games. Flash can decide to 3 hatch before pool and turn that into a hydra all-in or something similar. I'm all for people playing random, but i think it's a stupid RNG element not to know their race, esp for protoss and zerg race. Playing ZvR must be terrible.
You have a great theory there except that we would be seeing a lot of randoms at the top of the ladder if it were true.
All those cheeses are easy to stop for a pro, and then you have to play a macro game.
Playing random in tournaments has been banned for decades. There has been no incentive for pro players to practice it. Can you name one pro players that has dedicated months practicing random on the ladder?
All i'm saying is it does not require 200-300% more practice just because they have to use three different races. It's not like 100% of their practice time goes into race specific things. A lot of it is general things that apply for all the races such as micro, macro, game understanding, etc. We have already seen pro players beat other pro players with their off races, and that's without the element of surprise that random gives you. It's also bad for the game to allow people to choose the random race (prob why it has been banned in tournaments) because it promotes cheeze which gives us consumers shorter and less skillful games.
I feel like you don't play the game seriously otherwise you wouldn't be making these statements.
The majority of the time the pros are practicing, they are looking for new timings and builds, not practicing "micro" or "macro", they already have pro-level micro/macro. If they have to play a bo5, they are looking at builds for the 3-4 maps they have to play. If you have 3 races, that's 3 times as many builds. Unless you're planning to 4 pool every map if you get zerg, which would be pretty dumb and predictable. After spending a significant time finding builds, they have to practice them against all possibilities. That takes a lot of time.
On April 20 2020 07:41 onlystar wrote: i will lose alot of respect for Flash if he wants an early advantage in a game by hiding his race. and handicap his opponents like that (not knowing how to open forced to play safe and have to prep 3 matchups vs flash per map that is CRAZY! random should be banned from tournaments for so many reasons )
Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft. He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup.
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total.
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else.
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
you are on the wrong track you are using reason to talk straight the disadvantage that accures from the information gap it simply does not apply here. you can not not in any circumstance say that X vs Y is equal and that they are the same that they start on even ground yes but he has to practice 9matchups so what? fairplay is where 2 players start the game on even ground there will be no advantages or disadvantages from the start.
This whole comment doesn't even make an iota of sense. You're telling me that I can't or shouldn't argue from a position of reason? And you conveniently ignore all the previous precedence when it comes to an isolated match? So based upon your statement, if all players should be on even ground, does that mean that if I'm not as good as my opponent, I deserve to play with an extra starting worker? Because I think that would make it so there were no advantages from my opponent's raw skill. Or how about every player must play a mirror match, only one race should be played because there are inherent race advantages in every match with P>T>Z>P. Where do you draw this line? Should Bisu be punished for having such a good PvZ winrate? Should he start with 1 less probe? Should he forced to play the opening with one-hand until 5 minutes? Wtf does this "advantage/disadvantage" even mean? There will always be inherent advantages and disadvantages. Literally all of your points are argued through emotional response. Maybe you got cheesed by randoms on the ladder, I know I do.
On April 21 2020 01:05 A.Alm wrote: Playing random in tournaments has been banned for decades. There has been no incentive for pro players to practice it. Can you name one pro players that has dedicated months practicing random on the ladder?
All i'm saying is it does not require 200-300% more practice just because they have to use three different races. It's not like 100% of their practice time goes into race specific things. A lot of it is general things that apply for all the races such as micro, macro, game understanding, etc. We have already seen pro players beat other pro players with their off races, and that's without the element of surprise that random gives you. It's also bad for the game to allow people to choose the random race (prob why it has been banned in tournaments) because it promotes cheeze which gives us consumers shorter and less skillful games.
Is it true that random has been banned for decades in tournaments like OSL, MSL, GSL, KSL, and ASL? Is there a source on this?
Here is another time where Random is allowed and it proves that Random was allowed even in proleague. I'm assuming the rule was when coaches submit their lineups, if a player wanted to "race pick" or "roll random" they would have to announce it as they submit the lineup.
you are making stuff up advantages/disadvantages ofcourse from 1 player not knowing the race the opponent is playing pretty obvious that skill level practice hours what ever does not matter ure not gonna start a tennis match where you have to play with a broken racket and the other has a brand new one now do you cmon keep it serious
On April 21 2020 01:30 onlystar wrote: its simple maths you are very emotional
you are making stuff up advantages/disadvantages ofcourse from 1 player not knowing the race the opponent is playing pretty obvious that skill level practice hours what ever does not matter ure not gonna start a tennis match where you have to play with a broken racket and the other has a brand new one now do you cmon keep it serious
hard to say what will happen if he goes random. His zerg and protoss are both like top amateur level or better so he can definitely take games off pros with them. I think he might do surprisingly well in the ro8 by going random but the inherent luck aspect of it makes him a lot more likely to lose in the ro16 imo. Like if he keeps getting protoss in a zerg-heavy group, I think his odds are bad.
it is cool to see him try to explore a new dimension to the game. I think it can fairly be said that he is almost up there with people like Boxer, iloveoov and Nal Ra in terms of his contribution to bw meta.
On April 20 2020 08:33 oshibori_probe wrote: Anyone going random in the ASL strikes me as really diminishing the value of preparation on either side. Maybe its not a horrible thing but I don't see any positives after the initial novelty wears off.
For the viewer, there would be a greater variety within a single BoX match and very small chance of a set being a pure mirror matchup that viewers dislike (lots of people skip watching mirrors). It's possible to have a higher chance of scrappier and more interesting games because players will more likely get into uncharted territory rather than playing a game purely within theory. It's usually interesting to see how good players think on their feet.
Back in the day players used to emphasize getting to the mid and late game and winning there, and late game situations usually have a lot of novelty to them because they're hard to prepare for. The trend shifted in the last few years to shorter games that are easier to prepare for with higher risk higher reward strategies. It would be nice (for me) to see that pendulum shift back to a longer style and format where players quickly get into uncharted territory and don't want to risk some precise all in designed to break the opponent just before they have x.
Here is another time where Random is allowed and it proves that Random was allowed even in proleague. I'm assuming the rule was when coaches submit their lineups, if a player wanted to "race pick" or "roll random" they would have to announce it as they submit the lineup.
I guess this brings up the question of whether your opponent should now beforehand what race you intend to play. I guess for the sake of baby steps, he should.
i don't think Flash will have an advantage from playing random, i agree with the part of people here who think that the extra preperation of knowing nine MU heighly outweigs the advantages.
Plus: defending against agressive openings with limited scouting information is a important part of the skill set in BW. Because that's what it boils down to. In theory, while having an BO advantage in the early, the random player should fall of/lose advantage against his opp starting from the midgame because the player who focusses on 1 Race is better in the given MU played.
Regarding as to Flash motivation: from my impression he is doing this to lift the pressure of expectation from himself and to have more fun while playing.
Every race is hard to play and Flash is the best player of today's era, but he will not be the best toss or zerg imo. I expect him to do mediocre in starleagues where he plays full random and has equally strong competition as today.
On April 21 2020 01:15 FlaShFTW wrote: Also cheese and cheese defense is objectively a form of display of skill. Stop spouting that Idra nonsense where you must learn to macro. Cheese/aggression is an important skill, and so is defense. FlaSh literally got popular for cheese builds, and then became a god when he learned how to defend cheese/aggression.
And if all flash has to do is cheese, doesn't that make preparation even easier for the opponent? Can't he just expect FlaSh to cheese if he doesnt roll Terran? Who's to say that the opponent can't also just cheese to counter random. Who's the say that games won't actually last that long? This is pure speculation that isn't even founded upon any evidence. We don't know what the random metagame is going to look like simply because we don't see many random games. Also, how is ZvR terrible? Z arguably has the easiest stime against random because overpool/12h/12p/9p are all viable builds against literally any race.
EDIT: Here's a source since you can't seem to provide one.
On April 20 2020 09:57 GTR wrote: random was never banned by kespa. random was just banned by pro teams because they don't want their players wasting their time. as someone mentioned before, it was allowed in 2v2 because dual race teams weren't allowed.
also if you were a prospective amateur who for whatever reason played random, pro team scouts will immediately tell you to stick to a race else they weren't going to make it professionally.
if flash wins the next asl with random, we will never see anything like it ever again in any esport in our lifetime.
last person to go true random in an osl/msl btw was elky - 2003/04 nhn hangame osl. suffice to say he quickly went 0-3.
1) You're the one saying people must learn every detail of 9 match ups which i assume includes late game macro, not me. 2) As i said earlier a cheeze can be defensive and offensive. It's impossible to prepare for both. It's a coin-toss on cocaine when up against random. 3) Sure you can cheeze against random, you'll just be at a disadvantage because you don't know what race they're playing 4) yes it is pure speculation, but so are your mathematical equations to show that "2.33x time with random = 1x time with one race". You're the one who turned speculation into "bullet proof mathematics", not me... 5) The only thing that link proves is that random was allowed in one tournament, 16 years ago. Anyways, here's a link stating that random was banned in some tournaments Random -> "Additionally, the inclusion of rules forbidding to play random in tournaments played a role in the decline of random players". 6) saying random is 3x harder because you have to learn 3 races instead of 1 is like saying aoe2 is 10x harder than SCBW because it has 30 civs/races instead of 3.
On April 21 2020 00:44 LG)Sabbath wrote: I feel like you don't play the game seriously otherwise you wouldn't be making these statements.
The majority of the time the pros are practicing, they are looking for new timings and builds, not practicing "micro" or "macro", they already have pro-level micro/macro. If they have to play a bo5, they are looking at builds for the 3-4 maps they have to play. If you have 3 races, that's 3 times as many builds. Unless you're planning to 4 pool every map if you get zerg, which would be pretty dumb and predictable. After spending a significant time finding builds, they have to practice them against all possibilities. That takes a lot of time.
Wow, that's a great argument. "Hmm, you must not be serious about X or else you wouldn't make these statements". I am going to use this argument for everything from now on. Brilliant.
But lets pretend you didn't just say that. Yes learning a few build orders for each match up takes some times, but these guys already know most of them pretty good, and the build order prob come natural to them because they have such a good understanding of the game. If you know a few early / mid game cheezes you're all set because defending against f.e muta all in vs hydra all in (PvZ) requires very different responses. It's hard to scout the all in and you can't prepare for both. It mostly comes down to micro and having a general high-level understanding of the game (f.e knowing when to keep attacking and when to stop). I also bet you every pro player know the build orders for these two builds without even trying to learn them.
On April 21 2020 02:05 Chef wrote: For the viewer, there would be a greater variety within a single BoX match and very small chance of a set being a pure mirror matchup that viewers dislike (lots of people skip watching mirrors). It's possible to have a higher chance of scrappier and more interesting games because players will more likely get into uncharted territory rather than playing a game purely within theory. It's usually interesting to see how good players think on their feet.
Back in the day players used to emphasize getting to the mid and late game and winning there, and late game situations usually have a lot of novelty to them because they're hard to prepare for. The trend shifted in the last few years to shorter games that are easier to prepare for with higher risk higher reward strategies. It would be nice (for me) to see that pendulum shift back to a longer style and format where players quickly get into uncharted territory and don't want to risk some precise all in designed to break the opponent just before they have x.
It's always 1/3 to get mirror match up, it doesn't matter if someone (or both players) pick random or not. Sure, the mirror match ups would be more spread out but it's still the same amount in the end, just that it's random. But yeah, the games would for sure be more random and there for be more scrappier. I can understand how some people would enjoy this, but i personally feel that a tournament like ASL/OSL/MSL is great because people can prepare for the match up and the map.
On April 21 2020 01:15 FlaShFTW wrote: Also cheese and cheese defense is objectively a form of display of skill. Stop spouting that Idra nonsense where you must learn to macro. Cheese/aggression is an important skill, and so is defense. FlaSh literally got popular for cheese builds, and then became a god when he learned how to defend cheese/aggression.
And if all flash has to do is cheese, doesn't that make preparation even easier for the opponent? Can't he just expect FlaSh to cheese if he doesnt roll Terran? Who's to say that the opponent can't also just cheese to counter random. Who's the say that games won't actually last that long? This is pure speculation that isn't even founded upon any evidence. We don't know what the random metagame is going to look like simply because we don't see many random games. Also, how is ZvR terrible? Z arguably has the easiest stime against random because overpool/12h/12p/9p are all viable builds against literally any race.
EDIT: Here's a source since you can't seem to provide one.
On April 20 2020 09:57 GTR wrote: random was never banned by kespa. random was just banned by pro teams because they don't want their players wasting their time. as someone mentioned before, it was allowed in 2v2 because dual race teams weren't allowed.
also if you were a prospective amateur who for whatever reason played random, pro team scouts will immediately tell you to stick to a race else they weren't going to make it professionally.
if flash wins the next asl with random, we will never see anything like it ever again in any esport in our lifetime.
last person to go true random in an osl/msl btw was elky - 2003/04 nhn hangame osl. suffice to say he quickly went 0-3.
1) You're the one saying people must learn every detail of 9 match ups which i assume includes late game macro, not me. 2) As i said earlier a cheeze can be defensive and offensive. It's impossible to prepare for both. It's a coin-toss on cocaine when up against random. 3) Sure you can cheeze against random, you'll just be at a disadvantage because you don't know what race they're playing 4) yes it is pure speculation, but so are your mathematical equations to show that "2.33x time with random = 1x time with one race". You're the one who turned speculation into "bullet proof mathematics", not me... 5) The only thing that link proves is that random was allowed in one tournament, 16 years ago. Anyways, here's a link stating that random was banned in some tournaments Random -> "Additionally, the inclusion of rules forbidding to play random in tournaments played a role in the decline of random players". 6) saying random is 3x harder because you have to learn 3 races instead of 1 is like saying aoe2 is 10x harder than SCBW because it has 30 civs/races instead of 3.
On April 21 2020 00:44 LG)Sabbath wrote: I feel like you don't play the game seriously otherwise you wouldn't be making these statements.
The majority of the time the pros are practicing, they are looking for new timings and builds, not practicing "micro" or "macro", they already have pro-level micro/macro. If they have to play a bo5, they are looking at builds for the 3-4 maps they have to play. If you have 3 races, that's 3 times as many builds. Unless you're planning to 4 pool every map if you get zerg, which would be pretty dumb and predictable. After spending a significant time finding builds, they have to practice them against all possibilities. That takes a lot of time.
Wow, that's a great argument. "Hmm, you must not be serious about X or else you wouldn't make these statements". I am going to use this argument for everything from now on. Brilliant.
But lets pretend you didn't just say that. Yes learning a few build orders for each match up takes some times, but these guys already know most of them pretty good, and the build order prob come natural to them because they have such a good understanding of the game. If you know a few early / mid game cheezes you're all set because defending against f.e muta all in vs hydra all in (PvZ) requires very different responses. It's hard to scout the all in and you can't prepare for both. It mostly comes down to micro and having a general high-level understanding of the game (f.e knowing when to keep attacking and when to stop). I also bet you every pro player know the build orders for these two builds without even trying to learn them.
On April 21 2020 02:05 Chef wrote: For the viewer, there would be a greater variety within a single BoX match and very small chance of a set being a pure mirror matchup that viewers dislike (lots of people skip watching mirrors). It's possible to have a higher chance of scrappier and more interesting games because players will more likely get into uncharted territory rather than playing a game purely within theory. It's usually interesting to see how good players think on their feet.
Back in the day players used to emphasize getting to the mid and late game and winning there, and late game situations usually have a lot of novelty to them because they're hard to prepare for. The trend shifted in the last few years to shorter games that are easier to prepare for with higher risk higher reward strategies. It would be nice (for me) to see that pendulum shift back to a longer style and format where players quickly get into uncharted territory and don't want to risk some precise all in designed to break the opponent just before they have x.
It's always 1/3 to get mirror match up, it doesn't matter if someone (or both players) pick random or not. Sure, the mirror match ups would be more spread out but it's still the same amount in the end, just that it's random. But yeah, the games would for sure be more random and there for be more scrappier. I can understand how some people would enjoy this, but i personally feel that a tournament like ASL/OSL/MSL is great because people can prepare for the match up and the map.
The page has no source. You still can't provide solid evidence. This page also isn't monitored heavily by Liquipedia. If this were a more detailed page, liquipedia admins would've attached a "citation needed" footnote to the claim. I'm asking you to provide a list of tournaments where random is banned. Some rulesets maybe from past tournaments?
I think Flash is free to play as he wishes, but he's also claimed to want to do this and that in the past so until he goes random in the next ASL, I won't hold my breath. On that note, I think people on both sides of the argument are overexaggerating their arguments. While it's true that a lot of the pros know their own races' matchups really well and less so for the rest, these guys have all lived in team houses and heard/watched/discussed vods together. The expros on Afreeca will watch ASL streams and comment together even on a race they don't play. In other words, they have the knowledge which is the most important part. One can argue on how deep their knowledge of say PvZ is when you main T, but if there's a single player that I'd trust to have a lot of knowledge on matchups besides his main, it's Flash.
Macro-wise, a lot of these guys are close in level and even Flash himself mentioned this so as long as the player in question can plan accordingly for the possible scenarios, it'll be a close match and even more if its Flash. In this case, it's a tossup as to how much of an advantage Flash will get if he main-ed Random and didn't state his race at the start. I'd personally much prefer he actually choose protoss or zerg and learned the race as much as possible rather than him banking on trying to learn the other 6 matchup (well, technically 4 since Flash likely knows the timings in ZvT/PvT to some degree) and plan for the possibilities. Either way, no use in debating this further imo.
On April 21 2020 01:15 FlaShFTW wrote: Also cheese and cheese defense is objectively a form of display of skill. Stop spouting that Idra nonsense where you must learn to macro. Cheese/aggression is an important skill, and so is defense. FlaSh literally got popular for cheese builds, and then became a god when he learned how to defend cheese/aggression.
And if all flash has to do is cheese, doesn't that make preparation even easier for the opponent? Can't he just expect FlaSh to cheese if he doesnt roll Terran? Who's to say that the opponent can't also just cheese to counter random. Who's the say that games won't actually last that long? This is pure speculation that isn't even founded upon any evidence. We don't know what the random metagame is going to look like simply because we don't see many random games. Also, how is ZvR terrible? Z arguably has the easiest stime against random because overpool/12h/12p/9p are all viable builds against literally any race.
EDIT: Here's a source since you can't seem to provide one.
On April 20 2020 09:57 GTR wrote: random was never banned by kespa. random was just banned by pro teams because they don't want their players wasting their time. as someone mentioned before, it was allowed in 2v2 because dual race teams weren't allowed.
also if you were a prospective amateur who for whatever reason played random, pro team scouts will immediately tell you to stick to a race else they weren't going to make it professionally.
if flash wins the next asl with random, we will never see anything like it ever again in any esport in our lifetime.
last person to go true random in an osl/msl btw was elky - 2003/04 nhn hangame osl. suffice to say he quickly went 0-3.
1) You're the one saying people must learn every detail of 9 match ups which i assume includes late game macro, not me. 2) As i said earlier a cheeze can be defensive and offensive. It's impossible to prepare for both. It's a coin-toss on cocaine when up against random. 3) Sure you can cheeze against random, you'll just be at a disadvantage because you don't know what race they're playing 4) yes it is pure speculation, but so are your mathematical equations to show that "2.33x time with random = 1x time with one race". You're the one who turned speculation into "bullet proof mathematics", not me... 5) The only thing that link proves is that random was allowed in one tournament, 16 years ago. Anyways, here's a link stating that random was banned in some tournaments Random -> "Additionally, the inclusion of rules forbidding to play random in tournaments played a role in the decline of random players". 6) saying random is 3x harder because you have to learn 3 races instead of 1 is like saying aoe2 is 10x harder than SCBW because it has 30 civs/races instead of 3.
On April 21 2020 00:44 LG)Sabbath wrote: I feel like you don't play the game seriously otherwise you wouldn't be making these statements.
The majority of the time the pros are practicing, they are looking for new timings and builds, not practicing "micro" or "macro", they already have pro-level micro/macro. If they have to play a bo5, they are looking at builds for the 3-4 maps they have to play. If you have 3 races, that's 3 times as many builds. Unless you're planning to 4 pool every map if you get zerg, which would be pretty dumb and predictable. After spending a significant time finding builds, they have to practice them against all possibilities. That takes a lot of time.
Wow, that's a great argument. "Hmm, you must not be serious about X or else you wouldn't make these statements". I am going to use this argument for everything from now on. Brilliant.
But lets pretend you didn't just say that. Yes learning a few build orders for each match up takes some times, but these guys already know most of them pretty good, and the build order prob come natural to them because they have such a good understanding of the game. If you know a few early / mid game cheezes you're all set because defending against f.e muta all in vs hydra all in (PvZ) requires very different responses. It's hard to scout the all in and you can't prepare for both. It mostly comes down to micro and having a general high-level understanding of the game (f.e knowing when to keep attacking and when to stop). I also bet you every pro player know the build orders for these two builds without even trying to learn them.
On April 21 2020 02:05 Chef wrote: For the viewer, there would be a greater variety within a single BoX match and very small chance of a set being a pure mirror matchup that viewers dislike (lots of people skip watching mirrors). It's possible to have a higher chance of scrappier and more interesting games because players will more likely get into uncharted territory rather than playing a game purely within theory. It's usually interesting to see how good players think on their feet.
Back in the day players used to emphasize getting to the mid and late game and winning there, and late game situations usually have a lot of novelty to them because they're hard to prepare for. The trend shifted in the last few years to shorter games that are easier to prepare for with higher risk higher reward strategies. It would be nice (for me) to see that pendulum shift back to a longer style and format where players quickly get into uncharted territory and don't want to risk some precise all in designed to break the opponent just before they have x.
It's always 1/3 to get mirror match up, it doesn't matter if someone (or both players) pick random or not. Sure, the mirror match ups would be more spread out but it's still the same amount in the end, just that it's random. But yeah, the games would for sure be more random and there for be more scrappier. I can understand how some people would enjoy this, but i personally feel that a tournament like ASL/OSL/MSL is great because people can prepare for the match up and the map.
The page has no source. You still can't provide solid evidence. This page also isn't monitored heavily by Liquipedia. If this were a more detailed page, liquipedia admins would've attached a "citation needed" footnote to the claim. I'm asking you to provide a list of tournaments where random is banned. Some rulesets maybe from past tournaments?
Hahaha. You are the one who started all this with your "People understand so little about starcraft!!" and "Hmm maybe flash can use 60% of his terran skills here, and 25% of it here and that means 2.33x time with random = 1x time with one race" and then you send me a link to ONE tournament 16 years ago that had a random player in it. I'm sorry but i cannot compete with this quality of solid evidence so i have to forfeit this argument. Gg.
On April 21 2020 02:05 Chef wrote: For the viewer, there would be a greater variety within a single BoX match and very small chance of a set being a pure mirror matchup that viewers dislike (lots of people skip watching mirrors). It's possible to have a higher chance of scrappier and more interesting games because players will more likely get into uncharted territory rather than playing a game purely within theory. It's usually interesting to see how good players think on their feet.
Back in the day players used to emphasize getting to the mid and late game and winning there, and late game situations usually have a lot of novelty to them because they're hard to prepare for. The trend shifted in the last few years to shorter games that are easier to prepare for with higher risk higher reward strategies. It would be nice (for me) to see that pendulum shift back to a longer style and format where players quickly get into uncharted territory and don't want to risk some precise all in designed to break the opponent just before they have x.
It's always 1/3 to get mirror match up, it doesn't matter if someone (or both players) pick random or not. Sure, the mirror match ups would be more spread out but it's still the same amount in the end, just that it's random. But yeah, the games would for sure be more random and there for be more scrappier. I can understand how some people would enjoy this, but i personally feel that a tournament like ASL/OSL/MSL is great because people can prepare for the match up and the map.
This is incorrect, it's a 1/3 probability for a mirror matchup if only a single player picks random, but a 1/24 probability if both players pick random. Random race assignment is not a pure dice roll, and explicitly attempts to assign races "evenly". I explained the algorithm in this post
On April 21 2020 01:15 FlaShFTW wrote: Also cheese and cheese defense is objectively a form of display of skill. Stop spouting that Idra nonsense where you must learn to macro. Cheese/aggression is an important skill, and so is defense. FlaSh literally got popular for cheese builds, and then became a god when he learned how to defend cheese/aggression.
And if all flash has to do is cheese, doesn't that make preparation even easier for the opponent? Can't he just expect FlaSh to cheese if he doesnt roll Terran? Who's to say that the opponent can't also just cheese to counter random. Who's the say that games won't actually last that long? This is pure speculation that isn't even founded upon any evidence. We don't know what the random metagame is going to look like simply because we don't see many random games. Also, how is ZvR terrible? Z arguably has the easiest stime against random because overpool/12h/12p/9p are all viable builds against literally any race.
EDIT: Here's a source since you can't seem to provide one.
On April 20 2020 09:57 GTR wrote: random was never banned by kespa. random was just banned by pro teams because they don't want their players wasting their time. as someone mentioned before, it was allowed in 2v2 because dual race teams weren't allowed.
also if you were a prospective amateur who for whatever reason played random, pro team scouts will immediately tell you to stick to a race else they weren't going to make it professionally.
if flash wins the next asl with random, we will never see anything like it ever again in any esport in our lifetime.
last person to go true random in an osl/msl btw was elky - 2003/04 nhn hangame osl. suffice to say he quickly went 0-3.
1) You're the one saying people must learn every detail of 9 match ups which i assume includes late game macro, not me. 2) As i said earlier a cheeze can be defensive and offensive. It's impossible to prepare for both. It's a coin-toss on cocaine when up against random. 3) Sure you can cheeze against random, you'll just be at a disadvantage because you don't know what race they're playing 4) yes it is pure speculation, but so are your mathematical equations to show that "2.33x time with random = 1x time with one race". You're the one who turned speculation into "bullet proof mathematics", not me... 5) The only thing that link proves is that random was allowed in one tournament, 16 years ago. Anyways, here's a link stating that random was banned in some tournaments Random -> "Additionally, the inclusion of rules forbidding to play random in tournaments played a role in the decline of random players". 6) saying random is 3x harder because you have to learn 3 races instead of 1 is like saying aoe2 is 10x harder than SCBW because it has 30 civs/races instead of 3.
On April 21 2020 00:44 LG)Sabbath wrote: I feel like you don't play the game seriously otherwise you wouldn't be making these statements.
The majority of the time the pros are practicing, they are looking for new timings and builds, not practicing "micro" or "macro", they already have pro-level micro/macro. If they have to play a bo5, they are looking at builds for the 3-4 maps they have to play. If you have 3 races, that's 3 times as many builds. Unless you're planning to 4 pool every map if you get zerg, which would be pretty dumb and predictable. After spending a significant time finding builds, they have to practice them against all possibilities. That takes a lot of time.
Wow, that's a great argument. "Hmm, you must not be serious about X or else you wouldn't make these statements". I am going to use this argument for everything from now on. Brilliant.
But lets pretend you didn't just say that. Yes learning a few build orders for each match up takes some times, but these guys already know most of them pretty good, and the build order prob come natural to them because they have such a good understanding of the game. If you know a few early / mid game cheezes you're all set because defending against f.e muta all in vs hydra all in (PvZ) requires very different responses. It's hard to scout the all in and you can't prepare for both. It mostly comes down to micro and having a general high-level understanding of the game (f.e knowing when to keep attacking and when to stop). I also bet you every pro player know the build orders for these two builds without even trying to learn them.
On April 21 2020 02:05 Chef wrote: For the viewer, there would be a greater variety within a single BoX match and very small chance of a set being a pure mirror matchup that viewers dislike (lots of people skip watching mirrors). It's possible to have a higher chance of scrappier and more interesting games because players will more likely get into uncharted territory rather than playing a game purely within theory. It's usually interesting to see how good players think on their feet.
Back in the day players used to emphasize getting to the mid and late game and winning there, and late game situations usually have a lot of novelty to them because they're hard to prepare for. The trend shifted in the last few years to shorter games that are easier to prepare for with higher risk higher reward strategies. It would be nice (for me) to see that pendulum shift back to a longer style and format where players quickly get into uncharted territory and don't want to risk some precise all in designed to break the opponent just before they have x.
It's always 1/3 to get mirror match up, it doesn't matter if someone (or both players) pick random or not. Sure, the mirror match ups would be more spread out but it's still the same amount in the end, just that it's random. But yeah, the games would for sure be more random and there for be more scrappier. I can understand how some people would enjoy this, but i personally feel that a tournament like ASL/OSL/MSL is great because people can prepare for the match up and the map.
The page has no source. You still can't provide solid evidence. This page also isn't monitored heavily by Liquipedia. If this were a more detailed page, liquipedia admins would've attached a "citation needed" footnote to the claim. I'm asking you to provide a list of tournaments where random is banned. Some rulesets maybe from past tournaments?
Hahaha. You are the one who started all this with your "People understand so little about starcraft!!" and "Hmm maybe flash can use 60% of his terran skills here, and 25% of it here and that means 2.33x time with random = 1x time with one race" and then you send me a link to ONE tournament 16 years ago that had a random player in it. I'm sorry but i cannot compete with this quality of solid evidence so i have to forfeit this argument. Gg.
Your argument is dismissing the level of knowledge of the game by simplifying it to just say "well, they can cheese and that inherent advantage of cheesing, ignoring everything else, is substantial to prove that random is unfair." You then also make the point that "random has been banned for years" while failing to prove a single tournament where random was banned. I've provided two instances where random was allowed, both in an individual league, and proleague. You have provided 0 tournaments. Seems like you're just dodging the fact that you made an unsubstantiated claim and are now dodging the need for a citation.
The idea of breaking down total skill needed to play all 3 races was first, an estimate. You can agree or disagree with my assessment, you should prove your assessment. I believe that my relative estimate of time you need to learn all 3 races is close to correct. I don't play AOE. I don't know the units in the game nor the similarities between each civ. Based upon my cursory look into the civs, it seems like there are UNIQUE benefits from playing each civ, but by and far each civ seems to have MOST of the EXACT SAME units and tech trees. So no, your assessment that AOE would be 30x harder is actually incorrect because your knowledge of the general game carries over from civ to civ. In Starcraft, your general knowledge of Terran does not carry over to Protoss besides the PvT matchup because you understand the fundamentals already having played TvP.
its tourney legal and even just looking at face value - few have ever tried it (all poorly) so it probably is disadvantageous. i think when you start looking into the amount of ingame knowledge, the difficulty of niche matchups (e.g. non z player playing zvz) it seems clear to me that playing r is disadvantageous. obviously among people who play all 3 races perfectly, selecting R would be an advantage, but i think the gap between where a persons skill level has to be and where the other persons skill level has to be relative to theirs isn't nearly there.
also worth noting, T players confer by far the smallest advantage randoming into their primary race. this would be a more interesting situation (though i'd still be wayyyy in support of it) if a god tier zerg player was switching to random. if flash somehow wins the next asl, +1 to this being the most impressive thing in esports history. i think it will be a great storyline and exciting to watch. im really excited to see some vR BOs too.
It would be better if FlaSh will start seed from ro24 instead of 16 because winning games as random will be pretty hard for him vs. top 15 players. Will be sad if he gets eliminated or sniped and then if he decides that it was a bad idea. But I hope he will practice his offraces hard until next ASL.
On April 21 2020 04:14 KingofdaHipHop wrote: The hardest game in the history of humanity was too easy for this guy, hard mode engaged
There are clearly advantages and disadvantages to playing random. If Flash dominates by doing cheeses with Random, other players start taking up Random+cheeses and do very well, then we clearly have a problem and it'll probably be banned. But if Flash is the only one capable of successfully playing Random, and especially if he does it without relying on weird cheeses enabled by playing Random, then I don't see the problem.
I don't see the point in banning it at this point--let's let it play out for at least one tournament.
Sounds like Flash is switching to random to keep things exciting and fresh. Playing the same race and dominating with it as much as he did can become stale rather quickly. Even if you're winning consistently. Flash playing random also gives his competition a better chance at winning games. I'd like to see more random players in the competitive scene to keep this game evolving and going another 20 years. Random vs Random is and will be the most fun I've ever had in 20 years of playing this game.
my interest in watching asl has gone from 10/10 to 14/10
edit: with asl time preparation and the fact he gets a seed, it's not like he has to train all the match ups. he just has to train 3vx. i am sure he will find many many many many practice partners who want to play againt flash's random.
How would drone scouting work in ZvR from both sides and R gets Z? Couldnt the player picking R get a nice advantage by forgoing drone scout or can the Z picking player just play it safe with overpool/9 pool and overlord scout? You'd think Z would still have to drone scout on 4 player maps putting him at a disadvantage if R is not a T or P.
Im honestly excited for all the nuances of a pro random player being explored.
On April 21 2020 05:25 kidcrash wrote: How would drone scouting work in ZvR from both sides and R gets Z? Couldnt the player picking R get a nice advantage by forgoing drone scout or can the Z picking player just play it safe with overpool/9 pool and overlord scout? You'd think Z would still have to drone scout on 4 player maps putting him at a disadvantage if R is not a T or P.
Im honestly excited for all the nuances of a pro random player being explored.
Yes, ZvR will be hard if R is Z. I think they might just default to a 9p speed.
Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
PROS like stork and bisu are encouraging flash to do it and saying they will teach flash the finer details of their race. Flash said he'll start with Horang2 first and work his way up. If pros are not taking offense to it why are you guys LOL.
On April 21 2020 07:36 Rainalcar wrote: If it's his right, he can go for it. Who knows how it will turn out. If he's just teasing, it's also on him.
Honestly, would rather see him play P and continuously die to 3hatch hydra rushes But even if it's R that happens, it's going to be interesting.
Tbh, I think Flash would solve early game PvZ given the chance. He just has a much more analytical approach to the game then any protoss player. Bisu doesn't think about how he can safely expand and power up, he thinks about how many different ways can he abuse his opponent to get a big enough edge to take him into the mid game.
Hope others random against him, rvr no telling race has always been the best form of brood war. Then also introduce a bunch of island maps. and I would be a truly truly happy man.
Gonna be the first tourney where I'm really cheering for flash either way. :D
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
Well said, I don't think FlaSh will do as well as others think with Zerg, I think he will do fine in PvT / PvP, but I can see him having a hard time in PvZ as well, despite him saying it is easier than (TvZ???) lol, this is just my opinion though, and I am excited to see how he does.
i dont think its doable at pro level. his terran will weaken due to lack of practise. also his other races would not be as good as his terran. i think it will be a short adventure like light's protoss.
he said he announced his decision and then had a bit of doubt cause he thought it would be too difficult, but since the news was also covered by the asl casters hes definitely going through with it now. only way it wouldnt happen would be if they changed tournament rules or for some reason the backlash from the community was so bad that he would be forced to drop the idea.
also its 100% random rather than picking 1 off race and he wont be specifying the race when the game starts. he doesnt think hell climb very high if he picks p or z so hes actually relying on build order advantages from randoming. he also didnt sugarcoat the fact that randoming terran is obviously his ideal scenario.
On April 21 2020 07:36 Rainalcar wrote: If it's his right, he can go for it. Who knows how it will turn out. If he's just teasing, it's also on him.
Honestly, would rather see him play P and continuously die to 3hatch hydra rushes But even if it's R that happens, it's going to be interesting.
Tbh, I think Flash would solve early game PvZ given the chance. He just has a much more analytical approach to the game then any protoss player. Bisu doesn't think about how he can safely expand and power up, he thinks about how many different ways can he abuse his opponent to get a big enough edge to take him into the mid game.
thats a pretty gross understatement of bisus understanding of protoss. if you watch any of tbls commentate on their respective races, the knowledge they have is insane. flash has stated that he finds p vs 973 extremely difficult and its very unlikely that hell find a solution before bisu or stork does.
honestly its a shame that most of tl doesnt understand korean. most of the strategy discussion on tl is "start with x build, get y tech, get n expos and macro or push at z timing". the discussions the pros have when they play proleague and watch each other is so detailed and fine tuned its ridiculous. "efficiency" is the main subject line for anything they discuss; their mineral/gas calculations are perfect for specific timings they're looking to hit on the builds they execute, their management of supply is perfect, army management is flawless etc. their theory crafting is on another level. if you watch jd cast zvz for example its actually ridiculous how deep his knowledge is. hes a fking prophet that can tell you exactly what the cost of a player losing a single zergling at a random point in the game is. it really puts into perspective how shallow the foreign community's understanding of the game is compared to the pros. i dont think theres a single other game that has such a HUGE skill discrepancy and when you hear their analysis and commentaries you just realise that that gap will never ever get smaller.
also lastly the other pros dont seem to be completely against the idea. some of them rightfully have concerns about build order disadvantages, especially if they meet his terran but for the most part they accept that its going to happen. in my opinion a lot of this is not due to the fact that they think its fair though, its because a wider issue with korean starcraft is that interest is dying and the pros know it. a common topic of discussion between the pros when they discuss starcraft in general is how its a dying scene and they need to do things to keep it alive. this doesnt necessarily mean just more tournaments or games, but the streamers individually have to change things up to create more brand power for themselves so that they can bring the increased interest back into the starcraft community. therefore flash playing random is probably just being accepted as something that the pros will have to accommodate in order to keep the scene alive.
On April 21 2020 11:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: he said he announced his decision and then had a bit of doubt cause he thought it would be too difficult, but since the news was also covered by the asl casters hes definitely going through with it now. only way it wouldnt happen would be if they changed tournament rules or for some reason the backlash from the community was so bad that he would be forced to drop the idea.
also its 100% random rather than picking 1 off race and he wont be specifying the race when the game starts. he doesnt think hell climb very high if he picks p or z so hes actually relying on build order advantages from randoming. he also didnt sugarcoat the fact that randoming terran is obviously his ideal scenario.
On April 21 2020 07:36 Rainalcar wrote: If it's his right, he can go for it. Who knows how it will turn out. If he's just teasing, it's also on him.
Honestly, would rather see him play P and continuously die to 3hatch hydra rushes But even if it's R that happens, it's going to be interesting.
Tbh, I think Flash would solve early game PvZ given the chance. He just has a much more analytical approach to the game then any protoss player. Bisu doesn't think about how he can safely expand and power up, he thinks about how many different ways can he abuse his opponent to get a big enough edge to take him into the mid game.
thats a pretty gross understatement of bisus understanding of protoss. if you watch any of tbls commentate on their respective races, the knowledge they have is insane. flash has stated that he finds p vs 973 extremely difficult and its very unlikely that hell find a solution before bisu or stork does.
honestly its a shame that most of tl doesnt understand korean. most of the strategy discussion on tl is "start with x build, get y tech, get n expos and macro or push at z timing". the discussions the pros have when they play proleague and watch each other is so detailed and fine tuned its ridiculous. "efficiency" is the main subject line for anything they discuss; their mineral/gas calculations are perfect for specific timings they're looking to hit on the builds they execute, their management of supply is perfect, army management is flawless etc. their theory crafting is on another level. if you watch jd cast zvz for example its actually ridiculous how deep his knowledge is. hes a fking prophet that can tell you exactly what the cost of a player losing a single zergling at a random point in the game is. it really puts into perspective how shallow the foreign community's understanding of the game is compared to the pros. i dont think theres a single other game that has such a HUGE skill discrepancy and when you hear their analysis and commentaries you just realise that that gap will never ever get smaller.
also lastly the other pros dont seem to be completely against the idea. some of them rightfully have concerns about build order disadvantages, especially if they meet his terran but for the most part they accept that its going to happen. in my opinion a lot of this is not due to the fact that they think its fair though, its because a wider issue with korean starcraft is that interest is dying and the pros know it. a common topic of discussion between the pros when they discuss starcraft in general is how its a dying scene and they need to do things to keep it alive. this doesnt necessarily mean just more tournaments or games, but the streamers individually have to change things up to create more brand power for themselves so that they can bring the increased interest back into the starcraft community. therefore flash playing random is probably just being accepted as something that the pros will have to accommodate in order to keep the scene alive.
pros who literally play and dissect the game for a living vs armchair dunning kruegers who think hitchhiker is a very exciting sophisticated strategic map (just plug the gap lol how hard is that use your brain!!) and that their 5 min of armchair theorizing makes them able to solve any gameplay conundrum better than the pros could? you don't say.
On April 21 2020 11:51 puppykiller wrote: All i'm saying is if you were a pro and you were going against Flash, would you rather have him pick Terran, or Random. Lets be honest.
This is such an insightful 'subverted' perspective.
If given the choice to race pick for Flash between Terran and Random, very likely most pro gamers would choose Random. Getting a good 2/3 odds of Flash playing his 'weaker' race outweighs the risk of any early game BO disadvantage.
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
If the other guy is forced into either a super safe or an allin build, how is the R player supposed to know which build order to pick?
To be clear, I definitely acknowledge that there are some random scenarios where the random player gets a statistic advantage, and it's exacerbated by the random player being more familiar with those scenarios. For example if you are a random player you will normally be more used to playing zvp against protoss going 1 gate gas than the protoss player will be familiar with opening 1 gate gas against zerg. But being random, your counter to 1 gate gas is completely different from your counter to proxy 2 gate (which is also something you will face occasionally. That said I know that koreans think you will beat proxy 2 gate if you scout it in time regardless of your opening, but it's just an example.)
It's just that the random factor actually goes both ways. Playing random, your opponent tends to play less predictably, too. I think many of you are attributing too much weight on the early game build order advantages. They're present in some matchups, but not in all, and sometimes, the random player is the one who gets mindgamed by randoming. It definitely makes for less standard games, quite possibly for more build order wins (I don't think koreans are gonna self-handicap by scouting with their 6th worker against flash) - but it really isn't a given that flash ends up being the one with the build order win. Stuff like proxy bbs can end up being a stronger opener against random than it is against picked zerg, for example, because random will often scout later than picked races do, and that makes you more susceptible to it.
So - it's less predictable. Somewhat more likely to result in short games. Far more likely to result in weird games. But the % of Flash getting a big build order advantage isn't much more pronounced than it is in regular games, mostly all of the gambling builds you can do as random also has a chance at backfiring. That protoss can't open forge FE against zerg is a real disadvantage for protoss players who favor that - but frankly, it's pretty close to the only consistent disadvantage. A zerg player can choose to open 9pool or 12hatch or 12pool or overpool - it's not like the other races have a catch-all anti-that build order. Terran can play pretty much entirely normally (with single 8 rax being much less of an option vs zerg but with proxy bbs perhaps being stronger).
Flash becoming the Bobby Fischer of Starcraft with this move that could revitalize the pro scene (or completely fall on its ass like Fischer random). Super excited to see how it plays out if more pros will also go random.
On April 21 2020 11:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: he said he announced his decision and then had a bit of doubt cause he thought it would be too difficult, but since the news was also covered by the asl casters hes definitely going through with it now. only way it wouldnt happen would be if they changed tournament rules or for some reason the backlash from the community was so bad that he would be forced to drop the idea.
also its 100% random rather than picking 1 off race and he wont be specifying the race when the game starts. he doesnt think hell climb very high if he picks p or z so hes actually relying on build order advantages from randoming. he also didnt sugarcoat the fact that randoming terran is obviously his ideal scenario.
On April 21 2020 09:40 BisuDagger wrote:
On April 21 2020 07:36 Rainalcar wrote: If it's his right, he can go for it. Who knows how it will turn out. If he's just teasing, it's also on him.
Honestly, would rather see him play P and continuously die to 3hatch hydra rushes But even if it's R that happens, it's going to be interesting.
Tbh, I think Flash would solve early game PvZ given the chance. He just has a much more analytical approach to the game then any protoss player. Bisu doesn't think about how he can safely expand and power up, he thinks about how many different ways can he abuse his opponent to get a big enough edge to take him into the mid game.
thats a pretty gross understatement of bisus understanding of protoss. if you watch any of tbls commentate on their respective races, the knowledge they have is insane. flash has stated that he finds p vs 973 extremely difficult and its very unlikely that hell find a solution before bisu or stork does.
honestly its a shame that most of tl doesnt understand korean. most of the strategy discussion on tl is "start with x build, get y tech, get n expos and macro or push at z timing". the discussions the pros have when they play proleague and watch each other is so detailed and fine tuned its ridiculous. "efficiency" is the main subject line for anything they discuss; their mineral/gas calculations are perfect for specific timings they're looking to hit on the builds they execute, their management of supply is perfect, army management is flawless etc. their theory crafting is on another level. if you watch jd cast zvz for example its actually ridiculous how deep his knowledge is. hes a fking prophet that can tell you exactly what the cost of a player losing a single zergling at a random point in the game is. it really puts into perspective how shallow the foreign community's understanding of the game is compared to the pros. i dont think theres a single other game that has such a HUGE skill discrepancy and when you hear their analysis and commentaries you just realise that that gap will never ever get smaller.
also lastly the other pros dont seem to be completely against the idea. some of them rightfully have concerns about build order disadvantages, especially if they meet his terran but for the most part they accept that its going to happen. in my opinion a lot of this is not due to the fact that they think its fair though, its because a wider issue with korean starcraft is that interest is dying and the pros know it. a common topic of discussion between the pros when they discuss starcraft in general is how its a dying scene and they need to do things to keep it alive. this doesnt necessarily mean just more tournaments or games, but the streamers individually have to change things up to create more brand power for themselves so that they can bring the increased interest back into the starcraft community. therefore flash playing random is probably just being accepted as something that the pros will have to accommodate in order to keep the scene alive.
pros who literally play and dissect the game for a living vs armchair dunning kruegers who think hitchhiker is a very exciting sophisticated strategic map (just plug the gap lol how hard is that use your brain!!) and that their 5 min of armchair theorizing makes them able to solve any gameplay conundrum better than the pros could? you don't say.
it seems obvious but yet most people here couldnt even fathom what the level pros think at are.
If somebody is willing to ZvZ zero, PvP rain ZvT light and PvZ zero at this current evolution of the game, then I think they deserve any advantage they get.
The sheer amount of prep to play 9 match-ups at a pro level, simultaneously ... What an undertaking. I doubt it will happen.
No Race Reveal. You want an advantage, easy, play all 9 races.
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
Exactly, well put.
On April 21 2020 13:44 Caihead wrote: Flash becoming the Bobby Fischer of Starcraft with this move that could revitalize the pro scene (or completely fall on its ass like Fischer random). Super excited to see how it plays out if more pros will also go random.
Not that this is related to playing random in any way, but Fischer Random is super popular? :p
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
On April 21 2020 13:44 Caihead wrote: Flash becoming the Bobby Fischer of Starcraft with this move that could revitalize the pro scene (or completely fall on its ass like Fischer random). Super excited to see how it plays out if more pros will also go random.
Not that this is related to playing random in any way, but Fischer Random is super popular? :p
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
"We have literally never seen any games with random at the pro level (or at least not for >16 years). But I can tell you right now this is going to suck the variety out of the game. Here's exactly how they're going to go!"
I've been on TL for 13 years. This thread has some of the worst takes I've ever seen here, and that's saying something. Mind boggling.
On April 21 2020 11:51 puppykiller wrote: All i'm saying is if you were a pro and you were going against Flash, would you rather have him pick Terran, or Random. Lets be honest.
For the "Random OP" people, this is the only question you should be asking.
There should be SponMatches on Afreeca where Flash's opponent gets to make this decision. Bet you "Flash please go Random" would be chosen by his opponents way more than "Flash please go Terran".
On April 21 2020 11:51 puppykiller wrote: All i'm saying is if you were a pro and you were going against Flash, would you rather have him pick Terran, or Random. Lets be honest.
For the "Random OP" people, this is the only question you should be asking.
There should be SponMatches on Afreeca where Flash's opponent gets to make this decision. Bet you "Flash please go Random" would be chosen by his opponents way more than "Flash please go Terran".
Has anyone here claimed random is OP? People seem to complain about the "not showing race" part of it all as it increases the randomness of it all (= more BO wins = less skill = less fun tournament to watch and play).
Also, the person you quoted obv meant the same thing as you. Anyone would rather play Flash's random than his terran.
On April 21 2020 10:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: Hope others random against him, rvr no telling race has always been the best form of brood war. Then also introduce a bunch of island maps. and I would be a truly truly happy man.
Gonna be the first tourney where I'm really cheering for flash either way. :D
A rare time we agree on something.
1 race plebs only play 33% of the game. 3 race master race deserves any build order advantage they get. Though in all seriousness, random can work against you as well. There's a lot of examples that have probably already been listed. But say you're Flash, and you have a 70++% chance or so to win vs any progamer. Do you really want to risk playing the best ZvZers when if you had just played TvZ and macro'd perfectly he'd already be under insane amounts of pressure?
Random is a double edged sword, if it weren't more people would have played it to begin with.
I say it's exciting if he goes to try it out, it might make for some more interesting/creative games. It might not, but there's a chance it could. I'm a /stats & numbers lover though, so watching him lose his 70%+ win rate on randoming is going to be sad. Because it's such an insanely impressive feat. But who knows what will happen. Maybe he'll win at a similar rate.
I'm not a big fan of radical change - in this case somebody, even Flash, playing random in high-stakes games - because there is usually good reason for the things to have been the way they are, so one should think twice before haring off in any direction.
I would argue the reason people have stuck to playing one race is one of practicality - as many here have noted, playing Random involves a much greater investment in terms of time and effort. Back in the cut-throat KeSPA days where the player pool was much, much larger, that makes a lot of sense.
In the streamer era you can retain followers by a number of means and when you're one of the greatest players, if not THE greatest, to have ever played the game, you can do pretty much whatever you want on stream. Audiences in the hundreds and low thousands watch as progamers share a meal. I'd say Flash can play all the Random he wants.
On April 21 2020 07:36 Rainalcar wrote: If it's his right, he can go for it. Who knows how it will turn out. If he's just teasing, it's also on him.
Honestly, would rather see him play P and continuously die to 3hatch hydra rushes But even if it's R that happens, it's going to be interesting.
Tbh, I think Flash would solve early game PvZ given the chance. He just has a much more analytical approach to the game then any protoss player. Bisu doesn't think about how he can safely expand and power up, he thinks about how many different ways can he abuse his opponent to get a big enough edge to take him into the mid game.
maybe a decent solution is if flash gets terran, he needs to call it but otherwise he doesn't need to.
Edit: So that Flash doesn't get a ridiculously unfair advantage when he gets terran. If Flash doesn't call he is either tooss or zerg so protoss players can in main 2 gate or put gateway in natural since both are ok against toss or zerg. Terran players can go factory or rax fe and I'm not really sure what zerg players should do. Maybe overpool?
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
"We have literally never seen any games with random at the pro level (or at least not for >16 years). But I can tell you right now this is going to suck the variety out of the game. Here's exactly how they're going to go!"
I've been on TL for 13 years. This thread has some of the worst takes I've ever seen here, and that's saying something. Mind boggling.
Preach. When did everybody get so soft? We should be applauding flash for trying this not putting rules around it for the NR20 sooks.
On April 21 2020 10:32 Liquid`Drone wrote: Hope others random against him, rvr no telling race has always been the best form of brood war. Then also introduce a bunch of island maps. and I would be a truly truly happy man.
Gonna be the first tourney where I'm really cheering for flash either way. :D
A rare time we agree on something.
1 race plebs only play 33% of the game. 3 race master race deserves any build order advantage they get. Though in all seriousness, random can work against you as well. There's a lot of examples that have probably already been listed. But say you're Flash, and you have a 70++% chance or so to win vs any progamer. Do you really want to risk playing the best ZvZers when if you had just played TvZ and macro'd perfectly he'd already be under insane amounts of pressure?
Random is a double edged sword, if it weren't more people would have played it to begin with.
I say it's exciting if he goes to try it out, it might make for some more interesting/creative games. It might not, but there's a chance it could. I'm a /stats & numbers lover though, so watching him lose his 70%+ win rate on randoming is going to be sad. Because it's such an insanely impressive feat. But who knows what will happen. Maybe he'll win at a similar rate.
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
On April 21 2020 13:44 Caihead wrote: Flash becoming the Bobby Fischer of Starcraft with this move that could revitalize the pro scene (or completely fall on its ass like Fischer random). Super excited to see how it plays out if more pros will also go random.
Not that this is related to playing random in any way, but Fischer Random is super popular? :p
Actually Fischer Random aka Chess 960 is reasonably popular at high levels of Lichess.org. But at lower levels where it loses most of its purpose (ie avoiding excessive memorization o openings) it is indeed not popular.
But I dont see much similarities because random on Starcraft actually puts a higher burden of preparation on the players, while being asymetrical on its effects.
This feels like Savior playing Terran after saying "my analysis of Zerg is complete" and then being cleaned 0:3 by Bisu within months. Or Jordan going for baseball just to fail there
Can't end well results-wise, but at least it would be talked about and maybe bring more interest to the Starcraft scene
BTW. I really can't believe how many people seem serious in saying choosing R is unfair or OP. The game was released 22 years ago, you don't think this optimal approach would've been distilled by now?... These players did their best to earn money and trophies, and some of you believe they would've passed up on an opportunity for an increased chance of winning? Or am I misunderstanding the argument...?
R is obviously the inferior way to go about winning longterm, given the limited capacity of the human body to train and the complexity of starcraft.
He'll win 100% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Terran. He'll win 75% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Protoss. He'll win 40% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Zerg.
I'm predicting a 70% winrate with this gimmick.
For one I'm not a fan of this at all because at best it shows that Flash is a genius while at worst it proves that Terran is the master race of SC:R.
On April 22 2020 04:08 linestein wrote: He'll win 100% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Terran. He'll win 75% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Protoss. He'll win 40% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Zerg.
I'm predicting a 70% winrate with this gimmick.
For one I'm not a fan of this at all because at best it shows that Flash is a genius while at worst it proves that Terran is the master race of SC:R.
Can't see how this can ever prove that T is best race. Even if Flash never wins as P/Z, there's an easy excuse that learning more than 1 race ain't feasible. But if the opposite were to happen (even though its extremely extremely unlikely), no one can claim ever again that T is OP.
Talking about balance is very out of place here. I mean, really.... what is more imbalanced than beeing God and playing Terran? I really feel for those who can't get over the balance discusion no metter what the topic is. This is all about fun and excitement, Flash already talked about the incredible adrenaline rush and pleasure he gets from winning games via mind games, I personally very much share that feeling, eventhough I'm garbage and he is He. Imagine the incredible source for mind games if playing random and having Lee Young Ho's brain, it really opens a whole new territory of meta very much unexplored so far. Bring it on baby
Will we finally have competitive RvR games in 2020!?!? If Flash actually switches to random there's a good chance at least a few others will too. I can say one thing for certain though, there will be a new flood of random players on the ladder which will be very interesting.
I doubt many things Flash has said recently on stream... He is such a great player but on some days he seems to be intoxicated on stream... and afaik its a common joke among other bw progamers... He even said he's retiring on stream though he still played ASL...
On April 22 2020 06:10 itsdaniel wrote: I doubt many things Flash has said recently on stream... He is such a great player but on some days he seems to be intoxicated on stream... and afaik its a common joke among other bw progamers... He even said he's retiring on stream though he still played ASL...
you are missing like 90% of the story details matter...
Why now? He is not alone on top anymore, unfortunately. May be for motivation purpose? Hopefully. Because if hes switching to random to defend his losses, he will get flamed.
On April 22 2020 20:15 TornadoSteve wrote: Why now? He is not alone on top anymore, unfortunately. May be for motivation purpose? Hopefully. Because if hes switching to random to defend his losses, he will get flamed.
His health is not there anymore, he just playing for fanserice.
On April 22 2020 04:08 linestein wrote: He'll win 100% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Terran. He'll win 75% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Protoss. He'll win 40% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Zerg.
I'm predicting a 70% winrate with this gimmick.
For one I'm not a fan of this at all because at best it shows that Flash is a genius while at worst it proves that Terran is the master race of SC:R.
or... it means he mained terran and has the most knowledge on how to play Terran at the highest level compared to his other races. You know, the normal logical connection instead of claiming TESAGI. lol.
Out of all the bad takes in this thread, this might take the cake now.
On April 22 2020 04:08 linestein wrote: He'll win 100% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Terran. He'll win 75% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Protoss. He'll win 40% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Zerg.
I'm predicting a 70% winrate with this gimmick.
For one I'm not a fan of this at all because at best it shows that Flash is a genius while at worst it proves that Terran is the master race of SC:R.
or... it means he mained terran and has the most knowledge on how to play Terran at the highest level compared to his other races. You know, the normal logical connection instead of claiming TESAGI. lol.
Out of all the bad takes in this thread, this might take the cake now.
On April 22 2020 04:08 linestein wrote: He'll win 100% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Terran. He'll win 75% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Protoss. He'll win 40% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Zerg.
I'm predicting a 70% winrate with this gimmick.
For one I'm not a fan of this at all because at best it shows that Flash is a genius while at worst it proves that Terran is the master race of SC:R.
He won't win 100% with terran because the moment he spawns as Terran the audience will go "OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH" and the surprise is destroyed :D
Also, I don't see him winning 75% with Protoss as long as the opponents play conservative. I don't think he can navigate the mid and late game in offrace nearly close to the in-competition S-class level gamplay.
On April 22 2020 04:08 linestein wrote: He'll win 100% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Terran. He'll win 75% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Protoss. He'll win 40% of the time the 33% of the time he plays Zerg.
I'm predicting a 70% winrate with this gimmick.
For one I'm not a fan of this at all because at best it shows that Flash is a genius while at worst it proves that Terran is the master race of SC:R.
He won't win 100% with terran because the moment he spawns as Terran the audience will go "OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH" and the surprise is destroyed :D
Also, I don't see him winning 75% with Protoss as long as the opponents play conservative. I don't think he can navigate the mid and late game in offrace nearly close to the in-competition S-class level gamplay.
tbh this is Flash we are talking about... the guy who had entered a state of "Starcraft nirvana". I think he can do it
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
If the other guy is forced into either a super safe or an allin build, how is the R player supposed to know which build order to pick?
To be clear, I definitely acknowledge that there are some random scenarios where the random player gets a statistic advantage, and it's exacerbated by the random player being more familiar with those scenarios. For example if you are a random player you will normally be more used to playing zvp against protoss going 1 gate gas than the protoss player will be familiar with opening 1 gate gas against zerg. But being random, your counter to 1 gate gas is completely different from your counter to proxy 2 gate (which is also something you will face occasionally. That said I know that koreans think you will beat proxy 2 gate if you scout it in time regardless of your opening, but it's just an example.)
It's just that the random factor actually goes both ways. Playing random, your opponent tends to play less predictably, too. I think many of you are attributing too much weight on the early game build order advantages. They're present in some matchups, but not in all, and sometimes, the random player is the one who gets mindgamed by randoming. It definitely makes for less standard games, quite possibly for more build order wins (I don't think koreans are gonna self-handicap by scouting with their 6th worker against flash) - but it really isn't a given that flash ends up being the one with the build order win. Stuff like proxy bbs can end up being a stronger opener against random than it is against picked zerg, for example, because random will often scout later than picked races do, and that makes you more susceptible to it.
So - it's less predictable. Somewhat more likely to result in short games. Far more likely to result in weird games. But the % of Flash getting a big build order advantage isn't much more pronounced than it is in regular games, mostly all of the gambling builds you can do as random also has a chance at backfiring. That protoss can't open forge FE against zerg is a real disadvantage for protoss players who favor that - but frankly, it's pretty close to the only consistent disadvantage. A zerg player can choose to open 9pool or 12hatch or 12pool or overpool - it's not like the other races have a catch-all anti-that build order. Terran can play pretty much entirely normally (with single 8 rax being much less of an option vs zerg but with proxy bbs perhaps being stronger).
Hi Eri! Glad to see you in this thread (I knew you would be!) for your takes on high-level Random play.
Obviously there is a hidden inherent minor advantage, my example would be that in TvT and TvP you want a factory expand whereas against Z you want early infantry, and if you fail to determine the Random player's race in time you're in trouble. And if you take an econ hit to scout earlier, you're still a little behind. I think so far everyone in the thread generally agrees with that. Although, your prediction about cheesing the Random player is an interesting one, I hadn't considered that possibility. Hopefully those types of games remain relatively uncommon, rather than a new norm.
Speaking to my own experiences playing Random (albeit definitely not at your level, and only knowing a couple of builds per non-Terran race), my own challenges were chiefly in ZvZ. ZvZ is so dramatically different in feel and flow that it deserves special consideration, I would say. I can imagine Flash encountering similar challenges in that particular matchup (not that he hasn't played ZvZ with success in the past, it's just... so much its own category). In any event, I'm certainly looking forward to it. It's also quite a statement to be able to graduate from "the Terran player's champion" to "everyone's champion" -- the one everyone will cheer for.
On April 21 2020 06:49 Chosi wrote: Disregarding the fairness point for a second, the purpose of this tournament is mainly entertainment, this is what pays the bills. And even today the least entertaining games are build order wins. It's just not fun watching a game which is already over. I remember one of the final games of Boxer where he 14cc'd into a 9 pool and it was so painful to watch, regardless of who you rooted for. In a game with one player going random (without honourably revealing their race via chat) you will see the non-random player going either a super safe or an all in build - all the variety would be gone. And the R player, being the only one knowing the matchup, would pick the build that is ideal to counter the builds the other player is forced into and exploit his advantage to the maximum. Cases can be made for both it's fair and for it not being fair, but the quality of games would suffer greatly, the experience would suffer, the percentage of games that are won/lost right from the start would be way greater than right now. So I, personally, hope he picks a race or there is any other way than concealing your race. When I watch Starcraft I do so because I can appreciate the SUPER subtle mind games, the precise timing windows, the genius strategies. If you play against random, you don't get any of that, it dull's the game. Not a fan.
If the other guy is forced into either a super safe or an allin build, how is the R player supposed to know which build order to pick?
To be clear, I definitely acknowledge that there are some random scenarios where the random player gets a statistic advantage, and it's exacerbated by the random player being more familiar with those scenarios. For example if you are a random player you will normally be more used to playing zvp against protoss going 1 gate gas than the protoss player will be familiar with opening 1 gate gas against zerg. But being random, your counter to 1 gate gas is completely different from your counter to proxy 2 gate (which is also something you will face occasionally. That said I know that koreans think you will beat proxy 2 gate if you scout it in time regardless of your opening, but it's just an example.)
It's just that the random factor actually goes both ways. Playing random, your opponent tends to play less predictably, too. I think many of you are attributing too much weight on the early game build order advantages. They're present in some matchups, but not in all, and sometimes, the random player is the one who gets mindgamed by randoming. It definitely makes for less standard games, quite possibly for more build order wins (I don't think koreans are gonna self-handicap by scouting with their 6th worker against flash) - but it really isn't a given that flash ends up being the one with the build order win. Stuff like proxy bbs can end up being a stronger opener against random than it is against picked zerg, for example, because random will often scout later than picked races do, and that makes you more susceptible to it.
So - it's less predictable. Somewhat more likely to result in short games. Far more likely to result in weird games. But the % of Flash getting a big build order advantage isn't much more pronounced than it is in regular games, mostly all of the gambling builds you can do as random also has a chance at backfiring. That protoss can't open forge FE against zerg is a real disadvantage for protoss players who favor that - but frankly, it's pretty close to the only consistent disadvantage. A zerg player can choose to open 9pool or 12hatch or 12pool or overpool - it's not like the other races have a catch-all anti-that build order. Terran can play pretty much entirely normally (with single 8 rax being much less of an option vs zerg but with proxy bbs perhaps being stronger).
Hi Eri! Glad to see you in this thread (I knew you would be!) for your takes on high-level Random play.
Obviously there is a hidden inherent minor advantage, my example would be that in TvT and TvP you want a factory expand whereas against Z you want early infantry, and if you fail to determine the Random player's race in time you're in trouble. And if you take an econ hit to scout earlier, you're still a little behind. I think so far everyone in the thread generally agrees with that. Although, your prediction about cheesing the Random player is an interesting one, I hadn't considered that possibility. Hopefully those types of games remain relatively uncommon, rather than a new norm.
Speaking to my own experiences playing Random (albeit definitely not at your level, and only knowing a couple of builds per non-Terran race), my own challenges were chiefly in ZvZ. ZvZ is so dramatically different in feel and flow that it deserves special consideration, I would say. I can imagine Flash encountering similar challenges in that particular matchup (not that he hasn't played ZvZ with success in the past, it's just... so much its own category). In any event, I'm certainly looking forward to it. It's also quite a statement to be able to graduate from "the Terran player's champion" to "everyone's champion" -- the one everyone will cheer for.
Factory openings are actually pretty popular now in TvZ too so I don't think Terran necessarily has a bad time in TvR, plus there are a lot of ways for Terran to get back to standard bio play after opening factory with either valk/science vessel rushes while adding more rax behind. They could also just hope that if the enemy is Zerg taht they don't 9 pool and continue to open up with a blind-ish 1 rax FE. Protoss definitely gets the short end of the stick here having to 1-gate-gas instead of forge FE vZ.
Crazy thought to maybe help with the random RNG factor, at the start of the game, the game will notify the other player one race that the random player isnt. So if random player spawned Terran, the game will say that he isn't either Zerg or Protoss. Pretty silly and radical idea but it could help. Altneratively it could do the complete opposite and force even more RNG based strategies.
Terran is definitely the race that has the easiest time playing vs random, both 1 rax expand and factory openings are viable in all 3 matchups. There are some differences in scout timings (double scv scout vs zerg but never vs terran) that aren't completely insignificant, but it's also not that big of a deal.
Zerg is forced to gamble vs random, but in a way that the random player can't really exploit. It becomes a bit more coinflippy - but there's no build from any race that hard counters 9pool 12hatch overpool and 12pool. For random terran vs zerg, you basically lose the option of going 8 rax because zerg is much less likely to have opened 12hatch. Wallins do become a bit stronger though. Protoss is forced to choose in a way that you can to a greater degree exploit - if you are random zerg vs protoss you can be very confident you're not up against forge FE, and random terran vs protoss you should to a greater degree expect one or two zealots.
On April 24 2020 00:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: Terran is definitely the race that has the easiest time playing vs random, both 1 rax expand and factory openings are viable in all 3 matchups. There are some differences in scout timings (double scv scout vs zerg but never vs terran) that aren't completely insignificant, but it's also not that big of a deal.
Zerg is forced to gamble vs random, but in a way that the random player can't really exploit. It becomes a bit more coinflippy - but there's no build from any race that hard counters 9pool 12hatch overpool and 12pool. For random terran vs zerg, you basically lose the option of going 8 rax because zerg is much less likely to have opened 12hatch. Wallins do become a bit stronger though. Protoss is forced to choose in a way that you can to a greater degree exploit - if you are random zerg vs protoss you can be very confident you're not up against forge FE, and random terran vs protoss you should to a greater degree expect one or two zealots.
I think the one thing that saves Protoss is that zealot first is viable in every matchup, though not as common in PvT because of terran micro holes and walls. PvP zealot before goon is the standard. It really just sucks that Protoss is forced to get a wall in PvZ, since gate first is also still viable in that matchup, but the wall would suck in PvP. PvT the wall actually might not be too bad since it helps to block the vultures.
just to be clear FlaShFTW is a random user he enjoys the advantage he gets in his games makes him feel special putting other players at a disadvantage from the start what a guy! and anyone who tells him that is not exactly fairplay is an absolute fool... just so you know what we are dealing with here
On April 24 2020 00:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: Terran is definitely the race that has the easiest time playing vs random, both 1 rax expand and factory openings are viable in all 3 matchups. There are some differences in scout timings (double scv scout vs zerg but never vs terran) that aren't completely insignificant, but it's also not that big of a deal.
Zerg is forced to gamble vs random, but in a way that the random player can't really exploit. It becomes a bit more coinflippy - but there's no build from any race that hard counters 9pool 12hatch overpool and 12pool. For random terran vs zerg, you basically lose the option of going 8 rax because zerg is much less likely to have opened 12hatch. Wallins do become a bit stronger though. Protoss is forced to choose in a way that you can to a greater degree exploit - if you are random zerg vs protoss you can be very confident you're not up against forge FE, and random terran vs protoss you should to a greater degree expect one or two zealots.
I think the one thing that saves Protoss is that zealot first is viable in every matchup, though not as common in PvT because of terran micro holes and walls. PvP zealot before goon is the standard. It really just sucks that Protoss is forced to get a wall in PvZ, since gate first is also still viable in that matchup, but the wall would suck in PvP. PvT the wall actually might not be too bad since it helps to block the vultures.
There was some player named OseyoGaseyo who really likes to make a PvZ style wall in PvP with some success. I don't know how he pulls it off though.
On April 24 2020 01:12 onlystar wrote: just to be clear FlaShFTW is a random user he enjoys the advantage he gets in his games makes him feel special putting other players at a disadvantage from the start what a guy! and anyone who tells him that is not exactly fairplay is an absolute fool... just so you know what we are dealing with here
Anyone who thinks random is imbalanced and gives someone an unfair advantage can always make the switch to random themselves. If that were the case, everyone would play random. There are very few true random players and nearly all of them will have a strongest race. 66% of the time they will be playing with one of their weaker races.
i dont wish to hide my race from my opponents thats not the way i need to get my wins. im not that weak minded if i would random i would tell my opponents what race i got.
On April 24 2020 03:28 onlystar wrote: i dont wish to hide my race from my opponents thats not the way i need to get my wins. im not that weak minded if i would random i would tell my opponents what race i got.
idk dude.. i can also tell my opponent my BO to prove something to myself
On April 24 2020 01:12 onlystar wrote: just to be clear FlaShFTW is a random user he enjoys the advantage he gets in his games makes him feel special putting other players at a disadvantage from the start what a guy! and anyone who tells him that is not exactly fairplay is an absolute fool... just so you know what we are dealing with here
You know, you couldn't have been more wrong.
First off, I have never mained random in my entire life. I've mained all 3 races at different times in my life, but never random.
If I did switch to random, it's not because I want the advantage, I just want to play all the races and have fun. You know, it's possible to play this game FOR FUN? Maybe it's a wild concept, it's clear you have very strong opinions on people not picking random for competitive integrity reasons, but I don't really play competitively that much. Sure I'll ladder, but I enjoy watching more than I enjoy playing c:
Further, I never said you were an absolute fool, I just thought that your argument/counter-argument was terrible. In the legal field, we call this a "balancing test" when competing interests are at stake. We weigh the benefits, and the detriments out, and we examine them to reach a conclusion. It's clear we will never agree on this, and that's OK. I'm ok with not trying to change your mind anymore. My points have been laid out, my view is that time spent to learn all 3 races trumps the fact that you get to hide information about your starting race which only actually really puts Protoss at some disadvantage. Terran/Zerg both have excellent builds that are standard against all 3 races.
Anyways, be careful. You don't want to have what happened to your intellectual buddy A.Alm happen to you. Address my arguments and points, not me as a person.
On April 24 2020 00:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: Terran is definitely the race that has the easiest time playing vs random, both 1 rax expand and factory openings are viable in all 3 matchups. There are some differences in scout timings (double scv scout vs zerg but never vs terran) that aren't completely insignificant, but it's also not that big of a deal.
Zerg is forced to gamble vs random, but in a way that the random player can't really exploit. It becomes a bit more coinflippy - but there's no build from any race that hard counters 9pool 12hatch overpool and 12pool. For random terran vs zerg, you basically lose the option of going 8 rax because zerg is much less likely to have opened 12hatch. Wallins do become a bit stronger though. Protoss is forced to choose in a way that you can to a greater degree exploit - if you are random zerg vs protoss you can be very confident you're not up against forge FE, and random terran vs protoss you should to a greater degree expect one or two zealots.
I think the one thing that saves Protoss is that zealot first is viable in every matchup, though not as common in PvT because of terran micro holes and walls. PvP zealot before goon is the standard. It really just sucks that Protoss is forced to get a wall in PvZ, since gate first is also still viable in that matchup, but the wall would suck in PvP. PvT the wall actually might not be too bad since it helps to block the vultures.
There was some player named OseyoGaseyo who really likes to make a PvZ style wall in PvP with some success. I don't know how he pulls it off though.
I was gonna say that doesn't quite work since ranged goons shred walls and those get rushed in PvP. It's an interesting concept to be sure though. I'd have to see VODs of how he does it.
I doubt Flash if random will maximise the cheese potential of random. But Flash as random essentially assures he will win a third of his games as T. Not becuase he will build order win his opponents, but as T, he is playing his main which has a high win rate all by itself. In ASL8 before this ASL where he wanted to win with "mindgames" he had 88% winratio.
Flash has been playing so long, and so accomplished and so many hours, the disadvantage of learning new matchups would not affect him as much as it would to players with lesser hours in the game. There are 9 matchup in the game, 3 are already what he mains as, 2 would be the reversal of his main, leaving only 4 matchups to consider learning. Most pros what what can be seen in streams are competent playing off races. Not as good as their main, but good enough to provide realistic practice to other pros. If Flash uses the BO advantage of random he should have a good chance of winning the next ASL.
My gut says it would be more like efforts 7-11 hat lurker-ling-scourage approach rather then 5-6 hat hydra-muta style.
It would be really jaw dropping if he is able to make strategic contributions to the other races.
Protoss is strange, he could end up a delicate wizard like Bisu, a mental toss like Rain- Stork or a beast like Jangbi-best.
ZvT, I have no expectations. I cannot imagine him competing against himself or light anytime soon but I am probably an idiot.....
If he has a +70 winrate with a second race.... we will need new terms to describe him. He is our first player to become so elite nobody elses modern accomplishments are relevent and he is not defined by a rivalry.
On April 24 2020 01:12 onlystar wrote: just to be clear FlaShFTW is a random user he enjoys the advantage he gets in his games makes him feel special putting other players at a disadvantage from the start what a guy! and anyone who tells him that is not exactly fairplay is an absolute fool... just so you know what we are dealing with here
You know, you couldn't have been more wrong.
First off, I have never mained random in my entire life. I've mained all 3 races at different times in my life, but never random.
If I did switch to random, it's not because I want the advantage, I just want to play all the races and have fun. You know, it's possible to play this game FOR FUN? Maybe it's a wild concept, it's clear you have very strong opinions on people not picking random for competitive integrity reasons, but I don't really play competitively that much. Sure I'll ladder, but I enjoy watching more than I enjoy playing c:
Further, I never said you were an absolute fool, I just thought that your argument/counter-argument was terrible. In the legal field, we call this a "balancing test" when competing interests are at stake. We weigh the benefits, and the detriments out, and we examine them to reach a conclusion. It's clear we will never agree on this, and that's OK. I'm ok with not trying to change your mind anymore. My points have been laid out, my view is that time spent to learn all 3 races trumps the fact that you get to hide information about your starting race which only actually really puts Protoss at some disadvantage. Terran/Zerg both have excellent builds that are standard against all 3 races.
Anyways, be careful. You don't want to have what happened to your intellectual buddy A.Alm happen to you. Address my arguments and points, not me as a person.
On April 24 2020 00:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: Terran is definitely the race that has the easiest time playing vs random, both 1 rax expand and factory openings are viable in all 3 matchups. There are some differences in scout timings (double scv scout vs zerg but never vs terran) that aren't completely insignificant, but it's also not that big of a deal.
Zerg is forced to gamble vs random, but in a way that the random player can't really exploit. It becomes a bit more coinflippy - but there's no build from any race that hard counters 9pool 12hatch overpool and 12pool. For random terran vs zerg, you basically lose the option of going 8 rax because zerg is much less likely to have opened 12hatch. Wallins do become a bit stronger though. Protoss is forced to choose in a way that you can to a greater degree exploit - if you are random zerg vs protoss you can be very confident you're not up against forge FE, and random terran vs protoss you should to a greater degree expect one or two zealots.
I think the one thing that saves Protoss is that zealot first is viable in every matchup, though not as common in PvT because of terran micro holes and walls. PvP zealot before goon is the standard. It really just sucks that Protoss is forced to get a wall in PvZ, since gate first is also still viable in that matchup, but the wall would suck in PvP. PvT the wall actually might not be too bad since it helps to block the vultures.
There was some player named OseyoGaseyo who really likes to make a PvZ style wall in PvP with some success. I don't know how he pulls it off though.
I was gonna say that doesn't quite work since ranged goons shred walls and those get rushed in PvP. It's an interesting concept to be sure though. I'd have to see VODs of how he does it.
We were addressing your arguments and points. You're the one claiming people are bad at the game for not agreeing with you, hence making it personal. You also said anyone who thinks Terran is the best race uses "illogical thinking", which is a personal insult to their intellect. In this post alone you ironically call me intellectual and threaten people that they'll get banned if they follow my lead. You are extremely arrogant and seem to have a hard on for authority. You want evidence for everything people post here (even though this is pure speculation) but at the same time you try to convert speculation in to mathematical equations by making up numbers based on "my very good logic i are super smart". The only reason you're not banned and we are is because you're a writer for TL.
Looking back on my 17 years posting here, I have to say my biggest reoccurring mistake is that I have repeatedly underestimated the value and talent of the people I disagree with or dislike. I have made an ass out of myself a few times. I see myself in your remarks in this thread. I hope things are well for you in the real world.
If they aren't, hit me up, I have a lot of time to kill.
On April 21 2020 01:30 onlystar wrote: its simple maths you are very emotional
You've convinced me. What a fantastic argument.
Your logic is bad and you should feel bad.
But such is the power held in TL. Being a writer makes you immune. Tesagi.
Arguments will neccessarily take either sides, but it was Flashftw that made it personal and gets away with it, and then threatens that anybody else that disagrees with him will get banned.
The feeling i have with this thread is that most of u are seeing Flash choice from your noob perspective and 0 knowledge. Some people posting looks like didnt see Flash already winning zvp vs rain best snow mini and more. Flash also won zvt vs Nada Scan and others i fail to remember.is flash protoss or zerg as good as his terran? no.But is already good enough to be a new progamer as protoss or zerg.Flash love mindgames and what is the ultimate mindgame ? random.im not sure about his zerg vs zerg or protoss vs protoss but since he will be playing random.he will have an edge. Flash army control decision making with every race is just insane.i remember watching his zvt and while he didnt show jaedong micro.his actions alone win him the game.anyway for you from outside is looking like flash need to learn everything.and the reality is he is training offraces his whole career.hell i played Flash protoss and it wasnt even close. :d
Looking back on my 17 years posting here, I have to say my biggest reoccurring mistake is that I have repeatedly underestimated the value and talent of the people I disagree with or dislike. I have made an ass out of myself a few times. I see myself in your remarks in this thread. I hope things are well for you in the real world.
If they aren't, hit me up, I have a lot of time to kill.
You're spot on... The truth is my mental illness does not allow me to comprehend numbers very well, and tbh it's really embarrassing whenever someone brings up mathematics in an argument so i just try to change the subject. I would like your help. If it goes well, i might be able to comprehend how random players need to play 2.33 times as much as a race-pickers, because currently it makes me dumber trying to make sense of it. And let's be honest, i'm already pretty stupid, hehe. I have time tomorrow at 3 PM GMT+2 right after my anonymous alcoholics meeting. Hit me up!
If randoming is a tournament legal tactic, then to all those that says Flash shouldn't be doing it because of blah blah integrity, blah blah fairness should read Sirlin's famous "Play to Win".
In Sirlin's words, those that argue against Random from this perspective are scrubs (bold emphasis mine):
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
I for one think that Random is not as easy as it sounds and Flash would not fare too well with it, but it would certainly be an interesting experiment.
This discussion is still so very, very stupid. We have these as facts.
a: Random gives you a disadvantage because you have to practice for way more matchups and learn way more mechanics b: Random gives you an advantage because of information at the start of the game
Now is the advantage from "a" bigger, smaller or equal to "b"? You can discuss or look the data.
What does data say: 20 years of professionell, talented, organized gamers playing against each other with lots of money on the line. So far no one has been able to make random work.
What does discussion say: Some random guy on TL claiming all progamers, coaches, teams so far have been wrong for 20 years and "random is OP". Not just competitive, straight out OP. Better than what the entire pro scene has chosen for 20 years. This is so, so very stupid. I don't even know how to emphasize how fucking stupid this is.
On April 27 2020 01:41 Jacenoob wrote: This discussion is still so very, very stupid. We have these as facts.
a: Random gives you a disadvantage because you have to practice for way more matchups and learn way more mechanics b: Random gives you an advantage because of information at the start of the game
Now is the advantage from "a" bigger, smaller or equal to "b"? You can discuss or look the data.
What does data say: 20 years of professionell, talented, organized gamers playing against each other with lots of money on the line. So far no one has been able to make random work.
What does discussion say: Some random guy on TL claiming all progamers, coaches, teams so far have been wrong for 20 years and "random is OP". Not just competitive, straight out OP. Better than what the entire pro scene has chosen for 20 years. This is so, so very stupid. I don't even know how to emphasize how fucking stupid this is.
youre an idiot. b is quite arguably bigger than a. thats the whole point of the discussion in this thread. like eonzerg rightly pointed out, 90% of the idiots in this thread are basing the feasibility of playing random on their own skill levels. the fact is flash doesnt have much to learn even if he switches races. "new mechanics"? what...did you think flash would have to learn muta micro from scratch or reaver shuttle micro from scratch? do you think flash doesnt already know the fundamentals of how every single build in every matchup works? all hes missing at most is subtle nuances that can be learnt from other pros given time and overall match experience, which will also come with a bit of time. it doesnt matter how good bisu is at pvz, if bisu is forced to play a 1 base gate opening vs a half decent pro zerg he will lose a substantial amount of games. thats how itll be if he one day vses flashs random zerg
On April 27 2020 01:41 Jacenoob wrote: This discussion is still so very, very stupid. We have these as facts.
a: Random gives you a disadvantage because you have to practice for way more matchups and learn way more mechanics b: Random gives you an advantage because of information at the start of the game
Now is the advantage from "a" bigger, smaller or equal to "b"? You can discuss or look the data.
What does data say: 20 years of professionell, talented, organized gamers playing against each other with lots of money on the line. So far no one has been able to make random work.
What does discussion say: Some random guy on TL claiming all progamers, coaches, teams so far have been wrong for 20 years and "random is OP". Not just competitive, straight out OP. Better than what the entire pro scene has chosen for 20 years. This is so, so very stupid. I don't even know how to emphasize how fucking stupid this is.
youre an idiot. b is quite arguably bigger than a. thats the whole point of the discussion in this thread. like eonzerg rightly pointed out, 90% of the idiots in this thread are basing the feasibility of playing random on their own skill levels. the fact is flash doesnt have much to learn even if he switches races. "new mechanics"? what...did you think flash would have to learn muta micro from scratch or reaver shuttle micro from scratch? do you think flash doesnt already know the fundamentals of how every single build in every matchup works? all hes missing at most is subtle nuances that can be learnt from other pros given time and overall match experience, which will also come with a bit of time. it doesnt matter how good bisu is at pvz, if bisu is forced to play a 1 base gate opening vs a half decent pro zerg he will lose a substantial amount of games. thats how itll be if he one day vses flashs random zerg
A bit of repeating myself, but I am not basing this on my own skill level... you seem to be projecting. I am basing this on 20 years of data from the Korean pro scene. Players, coaches, managers. Several hundreds of people who dedicated their life to Starcraft. What data is your opinion based on? Where are all the "Random" tournament wins? Proleague wins? I mean they surely should be there after tens of thousands of games if "Random" truly is OP.
On April 21 2020 01:30 onlystar wrote: its simple maths you are very emotional
You've convinced me. What a fantastic argument.
Your logic is bad and you should feel bad.
But such is the power held in TL. Being a writer makes you immune. Tesagi.
Arguments will neccessarily take either sides, but it was Flashftw that made it personal and gets away with it, and then threatens that anybody else that disagrees with him will get banned.
Now that is uncalled for. I might or might not agree with FlashFTW's arguments, but I definitely do not feel immune. That being said, taking such discussions on a personal level is quite low, I'd say. And a sizable portion of the thread consists of insults.
On April 21 2020 01:30 onlystar wrote: its simple maths you are very emotional
You've convinced me. What a fantastic argument.
Your logic is bad and you should feel bad.
But such is the power held in TL. Being a writer makes you immune. Tesagi.
Arguments will neccessarily take either sides, but it was Flashftw that made it personal and gets away with it, and then threatens that anybody else that disagrees with him will get banned.
I literally tell him his argument is bad. I don't say anything about HIM. How is this hypocritical? The comment I'm responding to literally calls me emotional. Even if I did respond to him with some ad hominem, I didn't even start it STILL. So everything in your post is just wrong.
On April 24 2020 01:12 onlystar wrote: just to be clear FlaShFTW is a random user he enjoys the advantage he gets in his games makes him feel special putting other players at a disadvantage from the start what a guy! and anyone who tells him that is not exactly fairplay is an absolute fool... just so you know what we are dealing with here
You know, you couldn't have been more wrong.
First off, I have never mained random in my entire life. I've mained all 3 races at different times in my life, but never random.
If I did switch to random, it's not because I want the advantage, I just want to play all the races and have fun. You know, it's possible to play this game FOR FUN? Maybe it's a wild concept, it's clear you have very strong opinions on people not picking random for competitive integrity reasons, but I don't really play competitively that much. Sure I'll ladder, but I enjoy watching more than I enjoy playing c:
Further, I never said you were an absolute fool, I just thought that your argument/counter-argument was terrible. In the legal field, we call this a "balancing test" when competing interests are at stake. We weigh the benefits, and the detriments out, and we examine them to reach a conclusion. It's clear we will never agree on this, and that's OK. I'm ok with not trying to change your mind anymore. My points have been laid out, my view is that time spent to learn all 3 races trumps the fact that you get to hide information about your starting race which only actually really puts Protoss at some disadvantage. Terran/Zerg both have excellent builds that are standard against all 3 races.
Anyways, be careful. You don't want to have what happened to your intellectual buddy A.Alm happen to you. Address my arguments and points, not me as a person.
On April 24 2020 01:49 Anc13nt wrote:
On April 24 2020 00:44 FlaShFTW wrote:
On April 24 2020 00:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: Terran is definitely the race that has the easiest time playing vs random, both 1 rax expand and factory openings are viable in all 3 matchups. There are some differences in scout timings (double scv scout vs zerg but never vs terran) that aren't completely insignificant, but it's also not that big of a deal.
Zerg is forced to gamble vs random, but in a way that the random player can't really exploit. It becomes a bit more coinflippy - but there's no build from any race that hard counters 9pool 12hatch overpool and 12pool. For random terran vs zerg, you basically lose the option of going 8 rax because zerg is much less likely to have opened 12hatch. Wallins do become a bit stronger though. Protoss is forced to choose in a way that you can to a greater degree exploit - if you are random zerg vs protoss you can be very confident you're not up against forge FE, and random terran vs protoss you should to a greater degree expect one or two zealots.
I think the one thing that saves Protoss is that zealot first is viable in every matchup, though not as common in PvT because of terran micro holes and walls. PvP zealot before goon is the standard. It really just sucks that Protoss is forced to get a wall in PvZ, since gate first is also still viable in that matchup, but the wall would suck in PvP. PvT the wall actually might not be too bad since it helps to block the vultures.
There was some player named OseyoGaseyo who really likes to make a PvZ style wall in PvP with some success. I don't know how he pulls it off though.
I was gonna say that doesn't quite work since ranged goons shred walls and those get rushed in PvP. It's an interesting concept to be sure though. I'd have to see VODs of how he does it.
We were addressing your arguments and points. You're the one claiming people are bad at the game for not agreeing with you, hence making it personal. You also said anyone who thinks Terran is the best race uses "illogical thinking", which is a personal insult to their intellect. In this post alone you ironically call me intellectual and threaten people that they'll get banned if they follow my lead. You are extremely arrogant and seem to have a hard on for authority. You want evidence for everything people post here (even though this is pure speculation) but at the same time you try to convert speculation in to mathematical equations by making up numbers based on "my very good logic i are super smart". The only reason you're not banned and we are is because you're a writer for TL.
I don't know where I said people are bad at the game, do you mind finding me that one? Or is this another one of your unsubstantiated takes just like you claiming random being banned at tournaments is the current status quo? And no, I don't have a hard on for authority, I have a hard on for at least reasonable arguments instead of ad hominems like what onlystar said. You don't seriously believe that Onlystar didn't deserve some kind of mod action do you?
Do you not see how much of a false dichotomy you present when you say this: " You want evidence for everything people post here (even though this is pure speculation) but at the same time you try to convert speculation in to mathematical equations by making up numbers based on "my very good logic i are super smart"." Like, do you understand how evidence works? Do you realize there is such things called hypotheticals and estimations? Do you realize that a significant portion of our world actually revolves around these? The hypothetical of what will happen in the future, statistics, predictions, etc. Everything we do uses an estimation. You can accept my estimate or not, you should tell me why my estimate was wrong. You tried to use AOE as an example to say that it doesn't make sense and it would be the same thing as saying 30 civs = 30x more time. I countered by saying there is only a few notable differences between each civ in the form of uniques which makes the transfer skill from one civ to the next a lot compared to starcraft where 1 race has very few similarities with other races.
Okay, i'll explain why i think your logic is flawed because i have a few minutes until dinner is ready and i'm bored.
On April 20 2020 23:11 FlaShFTW wrote: Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft.[1] He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup. [2]
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total. [2]
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else. [3]
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
[/b]
[1] here you say people have very little understand of the game == bad at the game
[2] You're assuming his games as a Terran gives him no head start / understanding of the other match ups at all. Sure, you do give credit for PvT and ZvT, but non for the other four match ups. This logic concludes that Flash is as good in PvZ as someone who has never played the game. Both needs X hours a week, for each match up they have not played. A pro tip for your future calculations is to use variables instead of a set number. You don't need to use numbers for the "percentages to makes sense".
I'll use a few other examples to why that logic is flawed. What if SCBW had 10 unqiue races instead of 3? Would this mean a random player would have to practice almost 10 times as much as someone race picking? It does not take 148 times longer to become good with all champions in League of Legends than it takes to become good with one champion, even though the champions are very different from each other. The scale is not linear, it's logarithmic.
Also, the races in SCBW have a lot in common. F.e, macro, micro, map awareness, game understanding and so on (which is why it's logarithmic). Learning build orders is not the hard part of this game, so it does not take a lot of time. Flash is f.e already going to have OK muta micro because he has been microing wraiths and other similar units for 15+ years.
[3] The better the players the more build order advantages scale, and this is where the "not showing race" part of random becomes powerful. As someone pointed out earlier, doing a gate into gas in your main instead of gate/forge expand at ur natural PvZ can have quite a huge impact. Especially since the zerg (random player) knows this is what the Protoss will most likely do (nexus first or gate/forge at nat is suicide against P, 2 gate proxy sucks against T (sim-city) and 1 gate proxy sucks against Z, etc, there might be some good cheez but it's a biiig risk for the protoss and it will not be an entertaining game to watch or play if they are forced to toss a coin) they can safely go 3 hatch before pool on bigger maps, gaining a huge advantage on this level of play.
On lower levels this is not that big of a deal, but small advantages are huge at this level. Similar in chess on lower level if someone removes a center pawn at the beginning of the game (starting with 7 pawns instead of 8) it's almost neglectable but at GM level it's already game ending.
I think random should be allowed, but for the players and our sake as spectators the races should be shown to decrease the randomness of the games and there for make them more skillful and enjoyable to watch. Either way, i am very excited to see flash play random, regardless of how this is handled!
Comparisons to other games are completely pointless. Broodwar is Broodwar. There is an infinity of possible games in which the information aspect is more significant than the extra preparation and vice versa.
On April 27 2020 01:41 Jacenoob wrote: This discussion is still so very, very stupid. We have these as facts.
a: Random gives you a disadvantage because you have to practice for way more matchups and learn way more mechanics b: Random gives you an advantage because of information at the start of the game
Now is the advantage from "a" bigger, smaller or equal to "b"? You can discuss or look the data.
What does data say: 20 years of professionell, talented, organized gamers playing against each other with lots of money on the line. So far no one has been able to make random work.
What does discussion say: Some random guy on TL claiming all progamers, coaches, teams so far have been wrong for 20 years and "random is OP". Not just competitive, straight out OP. Better than what the entire pro scene has chosen for 20 years. This is so, so very stupid. I don't even know how to emphasize how fucking stupid this is.
youre an idiot. b is quite arguably bigger than a. thats the whole point of the discussion in this thread. like eonzerg rightly pointed out, 90% of the idiots in this thread are basing the feasibility of playing random on their own skill levels. the fact is flash doesnt have much to learn even if he switches races. "new mechanics"? what...did you think flash would have to learn muta micro from scratch or reaver shuttle micro from scratch? do you think flash doesnt already know the fundamentals of how every single build in every matchup works? all hes missing at most is subtle nuances that can be learnt from other pros given time and overall match experience, which will also come with a bit of time. it doesnt matter how good bisu is at pvz, if bisu is forced to play a 1 base gate opening vs a half decent pro zerg he will lose a substantial amount of games. thats how itll be if he one day vses flashs random zerg
A bit of repeating myself, but I am not basing this on my own skill level... you seem to be projecting. I am basing this on 20 years of data from the Korean pro scene. Players, coaches, managers. Several hundreds of people who dedicated their life to Starcraft. What data is your opinion based on? Where are all the "Random" tournament wins? Proleague wins? I mean they surely should be there after tens of thousands of games if "Random" truly is OP.
absence of data =/= absence of benefits to playing random. for someone who was pretty quick to criticise the discussion here after having 0 input its pretty clear you havent even read the discussion. the official pro scene played by a set of rules and 1 of them was specifically " no random". so why are you looking for data as if it somehow proves your point?
That no random rule to my knowledge was one imposed by coaches because it was considered too hard to succeed playing random..? Not that it was ever actually illegal in korean tournaments to play random, just none of the teams would allow their players to do it (and very few players had any desire to go for it).
the official pro scene played by a set of rules and 1 of them was specifically " no random"
This isn't true and I'm not sure where this massive misconception came from. It's constantly repeated though. Some players played random on occasion. Some players switched their races to a different non-random race as well, it just wasn't very common. Any restrictions like this came from team management or player choice. There was a rule that you had to give notice of your race one week in advance though.
It wouldn't have made sense to ban random (as a tournament rule) at the professional level, as it isn't even viable outside of Flash using it. Sure, there might have been a small number of pros who played random way back in the day when most of us were still little virgin girls, but as the scene became more competitive, picking random would have been suicide. Even Flash is probably going to lose playing Zerg next season.
On April 27 2020 10:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: That no random rule to my knowledge was one imposed by coaches because it was considered too hard to succeed playing random..? Not that it was ever actually illegal in korean tournaments to play random, just none of the teams would allow their players to do it (and very few players had any desire to go for it).
it doesnt matter who imposed the rule, the point is a rule was in place and the players had no choice
On April 27 2020 11:37 Pangpootata wrote: ITT: people who lost to random on ladder and are salty about it, and try to convince themselves that random is unfair
"If some 800 MMR noob cheesing scrub from some South American country I've never heard of can beat me with random, it's clearly OP!" Flash is an asshole for choosing R-sagi.
On April 27 2020 10:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: That no random rule to my knowledge was one imposed by coaches because it was considered too hard to succeed playing random..? Not that it was ever actually illegal in korean tournaments to play random, just none of the teams would allow their players to do it (and very few players had any desire to go for it).
it doesnt matter who imposed the rule, the point is a rule was in place and the players had no choice
It matters in the context of whether random has been perceived as strong or powerful. Coaches banning their players from randoming because they assume nobody can be successful randoming is a very significant indicator that randoming is not considered beneficial, and indeed, that it would have been a disadvantage.
On April 26 2020 21:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: The feeling i have with this thread is that most of u are seeing Flash choice from your noob perspective and 0 knowledge. Some people posting looks like didnt see Flash already winning zvp vs rain best snow mini and more. Flash also won zvt vs Nada Scan and others i fail to remember.is flash protoss or zerg as good as his terran? no.But is already good enough to be a new progamer as protoss or zerg.Flash love mindgames and what is the ultimate mindgame ? random.im not sure about his zerg vs zerg or protoss vs protoss but since he will be playing random.he will have an edge. Flash army control decision making with every race is just insane.i remember watching his zvt and while he didnt show jaedong micro.his actions alone win him the game.anyway for you from outside is looking like flash need to learn everything.and the reality is he is training offraces his whole career.hell i played Flash protoss and it wasnt even close. :d
Yes man thank you for shedding some light, I said it before but idiots keeps talking about imbalance. as if picking random was Flash's ultimate evil plan to break the game. Other delusional people keep bringing up how not good he gotta be with his offrace as you said, they probably think they could beat JD now that he is rusty if he plays offrace.
On April 27 2020 10:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: That no random rule to my knowledge was one imposed by coaches because it was considered too hard to succeed playing random..? Not that it was ever actually illegal in korean tournaments to play random, just none of the teams would allow their players to do it (and very few players had any desire to go for it).
it doesnt matter who imposed the rule, the point is a rule was in place and the players had no choice
It matters in the context of whether random has been perceived as strong or powerful. Coaches banning their players from randoming because they assume nobody can be successful randoming is a very significant indicator that randoming is not considered beneficial, and indeed, that it would have been a disadvantage.
for the average player yes. there are way more players that werent successful even playing 1 race, let alone playing 3. were not talking about the average player however, were talking about flash. i cant speak for everyone here but its worth pointing out that my argument against random picking in tourneys is based on the fact that the player in question is flash, not someone else. yes, his p and z are obviously not going to be as good as bisu's p or zero's z, but if he's able to hit a decent mid-tier level at those races then the build order advantages he could get out of picking random may well be enough to make up for the skill difference.
also it is WAY less interesting to see pros win or lose because of a build order loss that happened because you dont know what youre facing. im not trying to be biased but if i saw bisu lose pvz games simply because he had to 1 base every time he faced random and it automatically handicapped him every game, it would just be unenjoyable to watch. id rather watch bisu lose fair and square against a zerg that actually outplays him than a zerg that just opens 973 and laughs at the toss who is 1 basing.
Guess what the anti-random folks are saying is that must also be some rule banning footballers playing out of position - because you don't see Messi playing as GK for Barcelona (OMG MESAGI SO OP!) and unfair for teams not to know opponent's formation in advance (SURPRISE TAKTIK SO OP!)
On April 27 2020 14:38 RKC wrote: Guess what the anti-random folks are saying is that must also be some rule banning footballers playing out of position - because you don't see Messi playing as GK for Barcelona (OMG MESAGI SO OP!) and unfair for teams not to know opponent's formation in advance (SURPRISE TAKTIK SO OP!)
thats not even close to being an accurate analogy. you should be embarrassed
On April 26 2020 21:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: The feeling i have with this thread is that most of u are seeing Flash choice from your noob perspective and 0 knowledge. Some people posting looks like didnt see Flash already winning zvp vs rain best snow mini and more. Flash also won zvt vs Nada Scan and others i fail to remember.is flash protoss or zerg as good as his terran? no.But is already good enough to be a new progamer as protoss or zerg.Flash love mindgames and what is the ultimate mindgame ? random.im not sure about his zerg vs zerg or protoss vs protoss but since he will be playing random.he will have an edge. Flash army control decision making with every race is just insane.i remember watching his zvt and while he didnt show jaedong micro.his actions alone win him the game.anyway for you from outside is looking like flash need to learn everything.and the reality is he is training offraces his whole career.hell i played Flash protoss and it wasnt even close. :d
Yes man thank you for shedding some light, I said it before but idiots keeps talking about imbalance. as if picking random was Flash's ultimate evil plan to break the game. Other delusional people keep bringing up how not good he gotta be with his offrace as you said, they probably think they could beat JD now that he is rusty if he plays offrace.
It's all about mind games and fun!!!!
oh I also saw him winning vs Larva in zvz
if flash terran main is T0, imo i feel his offraces are at already T2 level in general from the games seen on his stream so far (with a few exception like PvT which i think is already at T1!). all he needs some refinements through learning more of the nuances/detail of each non-terran match ups form the other pros and his offraces will start to move up to T1. when that happens he will legitimately be very competitive as a random player and really scary to face. people really need realise their pereceptions of random do not apply to someone as prodigious as flash and to stop whining and go check out some of flash's offrace games for themselves, its an unprecedented moment in BW history that will be pretty interesting to watch
On April 27 2020 10:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: That no random rule to my knowledge was one imposed by coaches because it was considered too hard to succeed playing random..? Not that it was ever actually illegal in korean tournaments to play random, just none of the teams would allow their players to do it (and very few players had any desire to go for it).
it doesnt matter who imposed the rule, the point is a rule was in place and the players had no choice
It matters in the context of whether random has been perceived as strong or powerful. Coaches banning their players from randoming because they assume nobody can be successful randoming is a very significant indicator that randoming is not considered beneficial, and indeed, that it would have been a disadvantage.
theres also another factor thats probably carries just as much weight as player performance, and that is that picking random damages the integrity of the competition. if you wanted to off-race then you could literally just pick your off-race and be upfront about it. picking random however, is inherently deceitful because you are trying to gain an advantage from making your opponent not know what theyre facing. its a fundamentally dishonest way to play the game. flash got a lot of criticism in his early days for cheesing opponents regularly because it was considered dirty or cheap. well picking random tops even that.
as for why the other pros would be content with flash picking random and having the integrity of their competition compromised, well that was covered by me in a much earlier post but it has nothing to do with the fairness of random picking or competitive play at all. the overall issue is much broader than that
On April 27 2020 10:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: That no random rule to my knowledge was one imposed by coaches because it was considered too hard to succeed playing random..? Not that it was ever actually illegal in korean tournaments to play random, just none of the teams would allow their players to do it (and very few players had any desire to go for it).
it doesnt matter who imposed the rule, the point is a rule was in place and the players had no choice
It matters in the context of whether random has been perceived as strong or powerful. Coaches banning their players from randoming because they assume nobody can be successful randoming is a very significant indicator that randoming is not considered beneficial, and indeed, that it would have been a disadvantage.
theres also another factor thats probably carries just as much weight as player performance, and that is that picking random damages the integrity of the competition. if you wanted to off-race then you could literally just pick your off-race and be upfront about it. picking random however, is inherently deceitful because you are trying to gain an advantage from making your opponent not know what theyre facing. its a fundamentally dishonest way to play the game. flash got a lot of criticism in his early days for cheesing opponents regularly because it was considered dirty or cheap. well picking random tops even that.
as for why the other pros would be content with flash picking random and having the integrity of their competition compromised, well that was covered by me in a much earlier post but it has nothing to do with the fairness of random picking or competitive play at all. the overall issue is much broader than that
I think it only seems unfair because we assume that playing only one race is the optimal way to play the game. In an alternate universe where random is the standard, all players would be required to know to play against any race and be prepared for any possibility at the start of the game. The only reason we don't expect players to prepare for every race against a single opponent is because it's not common, not because it's unfairly difficult.
On April 27 2020 06:03 A.Alm wrote: Okay, i'll explain why i think your logic is flawed because i have a few minutes until dinner is ready and i'm bored.
On April 20 2020 23:11 FlaShFTW wrote: Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft.[1] He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup. [2]
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total. [2]
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else. [3]
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
[1] here you say people have very little understand of the game == bad at the game
[2] You're assuming his games as a Terran gives him no head start / understanding of the other match ups at all. Sure, you do give credit for PvT and ZvT, but non for the other four match ups. This logic concludes that Flash is as good in PvZ as someone who has never played the game. Both needs X hours a week, for each match up they have not played. A pro tip for your future calculations is to use variables instead of a set number. You don't need to use numbers for the "percentages to makes sense".
I'll use a few other examples to why that logic is flawed. What if SCBW had 10 unqiue races instead of 3? Would this mean a random player would have to practice almost 10 times as much as someone race picking? It does not take 148 times longer to become good with all champions in League of Legends than it takes to become good with one champion, even though the champions are very different from each other. The scale is not linear, it's logarithmic.
Also, the races in SCBW have a lot in common. F.e, macro, micro, map awareness, game understanding and so on (which is why it's logarithmic). Learning build orders is not the hard part of this game, so it does not take a lot of time. Flash is f.e already going to have OK muta micro because he has been microing wraiths and other similar units for 15+ years.
[3] The better the players the more build order advantages scale, and this is where the "not showing race" part of random becomes powerful. As someone pointed out earlier, doing a gate into gas in your main instead of gate/forge expand at ur natural PvZ can have quite a huge impact. Especially since the zerg (random player) knows this is what the Protoss will most likely do (nexus first or gate/forge at nat is suicide against P, 2 gate proxy sucks against T (sim-city) and 1 gate proxy sucks against Z, etc, there might be some good cheez but it's a biiig risk for the protoss and it will not be an entertaining game to watch or play if they are forced to toss a coin) they can safely go 3 hatch before pool on bigger maps, gaining a huge advantage on this level of play.
On lower levels this is not that big of a deal, but small advantages are huge at this level. Similar in chess on lower level if someone removes a center pawn at the beginning of the game (starting with 7 pawns instead of 8) it's almost neglectable but at GM level it's already game ending.
I think random should be allowed, but for the players and our sake as spectators the races should be shown to decrease the randomness of the games and there for make them more skillful and enjoyable to watch. Either way, i am very excited to see flash play random, regardless of how this is handled!
[/b] Actually league of legends would prove a point that specialisation is useful, rather than that it is not worth it. Pros in league of legends usually only have a small pool of 4-5 champs that they will play. Because yes, learning the matchups with a lot of champions is a lot of work, and their winrate will suffer if they try to learn too many of them
On April 27 2020 06:03 A.Alm wrote: Okay, i'll explain why i think your logic is flawed because i have a few minutes until dinner is ready and i'm bored.
On April 20 2020 23:11 FlaShFTW wrote: Takes like this make it very clear how little people actually understand about starcraft.[1] He has to prepare for 9 matchups. That's 200% more matchups than he already has to prepare for. That means 200% more build orders, and 200% more understanding for how to play the matchup. [2]
Let's assume for a second that on the best case scenario that FlaSh playing Terran matchups means that he carries over 75% of his understanding to the other side. So he needs to learn about 25% of the knowledge to play ZvT and PvT.
That leaves 4 other matchups where he needs to learn everything. ZvZ, PvP, ZvP, and PvZ. Maybe you could make an argument that playing either side of the ZvP matchup only needs 50% more time.
Let's assume for percentage sake that mastering/learning to a pro-level for just one matchup takes 10 hours. This is just to represent the percentages, obviously it takes more time. So FlaSh has already spent 10 hours for each Terran matchup (30 hours). To learn ZvT and PvT, he needs to invest another 2.5 hours each. That's 35 hours total now. Then he needs to learn ZvZ and PvP, another 20 hours total added. To learn both sides of the ZvP matchup, he needs 15 hours total. That adds up to 70 hours total. [2]
70 hours total, compared to the average of 30 hours to learn just one race. That is 233% more time spent to learn all 9 matchups.
But sure, let's compare needing 233% more time to practice every single matchup AT MINIMUM to him gaining an advantage over the opponent not knowing what race he's playing. Imagine punishing a player for spending more time to get better at the game than everyone else. [3]
I suppose someone might say that FlaSh only has to prepare for 3 matchups too, because let's say he was going to play against Bisu, he would only need to prepare ZvP, TvP, and PvP. Sure, he prepares for Bisu, just like Bisu prepares for FlaSh. The difference is that Bisu gets to prepare with the same units for one race. FlaSh has to play 3 completely different races. Even if you want to make this argument, FlaSh gains no advantage besides the advantage for playing/practicing more than his opponents.
[1] here you say people have very little understand of the game == bad at the game
[2] You're assuming his games as a Terran gives him no head start / understanding of the other match ups at all. Sure, you do give credit for PvT and ZvT, but non for the other four match ups. This logic concludes that Flash is as good in PvZ as someone who has never played the game. Both needs X hours a week, for each match up they have not played. A pro tip for your future calculations is to use variables instead of a set number. You don't need to use numbers for the "percentages to makes sense".
I'll use a few other examples to why that logic is flawed. What if SCBW had 10 unqiue races instead of 3? Would this mean a random player would have to practice almost 10 times as much as someone race picking? It does not take 148 times longer to become good with all champions in League of Legends than it takes to become good with one champion, even though the champions are very different from each other. The scale is not linear, it's logarithmic.
Also, the races in SCBW have a lot in common. F.e, macro, micro, map awareness, game understanding and so on (which is why it's logarithmic). Learning build orders is not the hard part of this game, so it does not take a lot of time. Flash is f.e already going to have OK muta micro because he has been microing wraiths and other similar units for 15+ years.
[3] The better the players the more build order advantages scale, and this is where the "not showing race" part of random becomes powerful. As someone pointed out earlier, doing a gate into gas in your main instead of gate/forge expand at ur natural PvZ can have quite a huge impact. Especially since the zerg (random player) knows this is what the Protoss will most likely do (nexus first or gate/forge at nat is suicide against P, 2 gate proxy sucks against T (sim-city) and 1 gate proxy sucks against Z, etc, there might be some good cheez but it's a biiig risk for the protoss and it will not be an entertaining game to watch or play if they are forced to toss a coin) they can safely go 3 hatch before pool on bigger maps, gaining a huge advantage on this level of play.
On lower levels this is not that big of a deal, but small advantages are huge at this level. Similar in chess on lower level if someone removes a center pawn at the beginning of the game (starting with 7 pawns instead of 8) it's almost neglectable but at GM level it's already game ending.
I think random should be allowed, but for the players and our sake as spectators the races should be shown to decrease the randomness of the games and there for make them more skillful and enjoyable to watch. Either way, i am very excited to see flash play random, regardless of how this is handled!
Actually league of legends would prove a point that specialisation is useful, rather than that it is not worth it. Pros in league of legends usually only have a small pool of 4-5 champs that they will play. Because yes, learning the matchups with a lot of champions is a lot of work, and their winrate will suffer if they try to learn too many of them
I didnt say it was not worth it to specialize i said it does not scale linear
Does this make sense: Obviously from a general/long-term perspective, Flash/random needs to learn (and be good at) more matchups than his opponents. But in series play, both he and his opponents need to prepare x3 matchups on each map.
Anyway, the other two interesting questions are: a.) would a player be allowed to shift his race selection throughout the tournament (i.e. Terran in ro16, Random in ro8, Zerg in semis, etc). Or even Terran for map1, Protoss for map2, etc. b.) would the race need to be announced beforehand (I would think that it would be) so everyone knows in advance what you'll be playing (even if Random)
Flash is streaming right now. His P and Z seems to be just as good as other pros.
People seem to think Flash is starting from nothing, learning three races at once. He isn't. Not only been playing years of BW with all the accumulated knowledge that entails, but he is certainly the current and greatest Terran player. Whose offraces match the best. That is his starting point.
So I saw a showmatch Flash played in on ZerO's stream last night. And hes still usign terran. So it seems like he might not quite "like" playing random that much that in a decently high stakes game hes using terran. Now does this translate to him being less likely to go through and use random in a next paid tournament, i dont know, but it does give some insight into his psyche and seems to show that he still feels more comfortable using terran compared to going random.
On April 28 2020 17:30 att wrote: So I saw a showmatch Flash played in on ZerO's stream last night. And hes still usign terran. So it seems like he might not quite "like" playing random that much that in a decently high stakes game hes using terran. Now does this translate to him being less likely to go through and use random in a next paid tournament, i dont know, but it does give some insight into his psyche and seems to show that he still feels more comfortable using terran compared to going random.
Well, he announced that he's going random like a week ago, so it's not surprising that he's more comfortable playing his main race and still does so in high stakes games. The games would probably not be close if Flash chose random against the best Zerg in the world atm and there for not be as entertaining to watch.
If playing random is an advantage, then everyone should do it. It is pointless to discuss wether he gets an advantage or not, because it is something everyone can choose to do. I fear it will make the games quicker and more boring to watch though, unless we get some rvr games where both players offrace
Since Flash has made this statement, has he played 1 game with random so far ? Arm injury/army/last ASL/retirement/random How many shots does korean have before losing credibility ?
On April 30 2020 14:58 TornadoSteve wrote: Since Flash has made this statement, has he played 1 game with random so far ? Arm injury/army/last ASL/retirement/random How many shots does korean have before losing credibility ?
And who are you to talk bout the credibility of the best player in history that ever touched BW game? And why should I or anyone else listen to you? I'm pretty sure you get my point,,,, gtfo idiot
On April 30 2020 14:58 TornadoSteve wrote: Since Flash has made this statement, has he played 1 game with random so far ? Arm injury/army/last ASL/retirement/random How many shots does korean have before losing credibility ?
And who are you to talk bout the credibility of the best player in history that ever touched BW game? And why should I or anyone else listen to you? I'm pretty sure you get my point,,,, gtfo idiot
But it's no joke. If he isn't playing random then Im not sure what the statement he made was supposed to be about
I am not judging his skills, just his words He should perhaps be more careful about the statement he makes, especially with the number of viewers he gets every day. Please accept my apologies to have hurt your feelings with this comment about your boi!
On April 30 2020 19:24 TornadoSteve wrote: I am not judging his skills, just his words He should perhaps be more careful about the statement he makes, especially with the number of viewers he gets every day. Please accept my apologies to have hurt your feelings with this comment about your boi!
He may just say certain things to get attention. It seems like basic marketing of himself.
why do people think him saying he will play random in the NEXT asl tournament means he will start randoming every game from now? you do realise that in the meantime hes still streaming to make money and if he makes money by playing t then hell continue to play t for the majority of his streams
On April 30 2020 05:06 Timebon3s wrote: If playing random is an advantage, then everyone should do it. It is pointless to discuss wether he gets an advantage or not, because it is something everyone can choose to do.
On April 30 2020 21:42 heavy-smoker wrote: By this point he could just play obs and still win
hahahaha an apt comment for your username.
On April 30 2020 05:06 Timebon3s wrote: If playing random is an advantage, then everyone should do it. It is pointless to discuss wether he gets an advantage or not, because it is something everyone can choose to do.
if someone asks if Flash is playing random, show vods that he is or tell people hes not right now, don't call someone an idiot for questioning it and then not answering the question in the first place, you were already warned don't escalate.
My prediction : in the first game flash choose random he will get terran, this is just destiny you cannot escape it.
What if Flash just goes 4 pool when he gets z? playing vs random it will be hard to stop. As a random player also ,( I dont know how pro handles this) , but often when im against R i will go something like 8 rax as terran to stop possible cheese or i will scout early or just o cheese myself. So playing as random i think flash is putting himself in the danger or very cheesy strategies.
On the other hand i believe flash is at the point he is not longer player of a race he is playing somehow a game as overall. What i mean is - his macro and micro ae insane, that wont differ so much from one race and the other, he has huge apm and sick multitasking he will use all of that to play random . The only think that is left are strategies, but I believe to master terran he would have to know what his oponnent is doing , so basically he knows all the strategies, timings, etc.
I watched some of his p and z games and they didnt seem to be much different level than what he does as T , they, looked equally amazing. I think he is switching to R because he thinks t is weak now. Other races were forced to play so many incredible terrans, that they have finally made a strategies so viable that terran has problems nowadays. As i watch flash youtube, (this is not relevant so much to official games), but he is getting so crashed by other players (z) especially from time that sometimes it looks hopeless.
That are some of my thoughts , to put in this interesting discussion.
I watched Flash playing protoss and I must say it is impressive, comparable to other top protoss players! He just beat zero with p but lost against soulkey
my guess is he probably will not play random he will declare race he has a moral compass flash knows its pretty bad to put a protoss opponent in a big disadvantage from the start by lets say getting (Zerg)random
he declares Random now by saying he can play all 3 races but doesn't mean he will pick Random..
Today I saw many games between Snow and hero. Hero won most of them pretty convincingly. If Flash is going protoss vs them he will have a very,very hard time. I just cannot see him defeating hero or larva or effort (when he will return from the army). But maybe if he picks random he'll have the element of surprise, i don't know....
On May 10 2020 10:12 Jacolope wrote: I remember reading that he-who-will-not-be-named practiced T more than Z, in order to prepare for the matchup. I wonder if his T would beat Flash's Z?
On May 10 2020 10:12 Jacolope wrote: I remember reading that he-who-will-not-be-named practiced T more than Z, in order to prepare for the matchup. I wonder if his T would beat Flash's Z?
Saviors T couldnt even beat GoRush
I'd like to see his play still, just out of curiosity, does he have a YouTube or is he allowed to stream or anything? lol
Although FBH isn't top terran, he's still damn good and manages to qualify ASL. And seeing how FlaSh's Z roasted him, that ensnare usage was brilliant.
Leaving aside the question of how good FBH’s build and execution were, did anyone else find Flash’s muta defense unusual? He split his mutas into small groups often. At one point he was chasing an almost-dead wraith with mutas and an overlord when his mineral line was attacked by other wraiths. He sent his mutas back immediately, and I was just thinking the almost-dead wraith was going to get away when I realized Flash had left one muta to chase it, and that muta killed the wraith. There were several other times when he used task forces of various sizes to get things done, whereas I’m used to seeing mutas all in a clump.
Perhaps other Zergs already play this way and I’m not giving them enough credit, but I thought I detected a kind of Flash-like flexibility of thinking and response. I’m excited to see more of his offracing.
On May 15 2020 05:46 Djabanete wrote: Leaving aside the question of how good FBH’s build and execution were, did anyone else find Flash’s muta defense unusual? He split his mutas into small groups often. At one point he was chasing an almost-dead wraith with mutas and an overlord when his mineral line was attacked by other wraiths. He sent his mutas back immediately, and I was just thinking the almost-dead wraith was going to get away when I realized Flash had left one muta to chase it, and that muta killed the wraith. There were several other times when he used task forces of various sizes to get things done, whereas I’m used to seeing mutas all in a clump.
Perhaps other Zergs already play this way and I’m not giving them enough credit, but I thought I detected a kind of Flash-like flexibility of thinking and response. I’m excited to see more of his offracing.
I kind of noticed Flash doing that too, but didnt pay much attention to it. And I dont remember other Zs doing this with Mutas, they always harass/force turrets or delay the T pushes by baiting stims. Also his flanking at the end was great, it closed out the game.
Flash's zerg reminded me a lot of Calm. It wasn't mechanically impressive compared with other zergs, but it was well thought out with good decision making. I know this is far too early to make any generalizations but I wouldn't be surprised if this this is the direction his offraces take.
Just watched his zvts vs by.barracks. im not sure if he randomed z or picked Z but the games werent all that impressive. His Muta micro is definitely lacking. I dont see him doing well vs ASL quality terrans until he sorts that out.
On May 19 2020 21:23 Sadist wrote: Just watched his zvts vs by.barracks. im not sure if he randomed z or picked Z but the games werent all that impressive. His Muta micro is definitely lacking. I dont see him doing well vs ASL quality terrans until he sorts that out.
That is very well said Sadist! Saw that match too and I was thinking that against a top terran player, like Light or Sharp or Last he would lose the game. But he got away with 2-0 against by.Barracks
He randomed into Zerg twice. I think his macro was surprisingly good, but yeah, his micro was really meh in some places, but Flash has always been good at tailoring build orders to give him an advantage, so maybe he can get away with something like that in ASL.
On May 15 2020 05:46 Djabanete wrote: Leaving aside the question of how good FBH’s build and execution were, did anyone else find Flash’s muta defense unusual? He split his mutas into small groups often. At one point he was chasing an almost-dead wraith with mutas and an overlord when his mineral line was attacked by other wraiths. He sent his mutas back immediately, and I was just thinking the almost-dead wraith was going to get away when I realized Flash had left one muta to chase it, and that muta killed the wraith. There were several other times when he used task forces of various sizes to get things done, whereas I’m used to seeing mutas all in a clump.
Perhaps other Zergs already play this way and I’m not giving them enough credit, but I thought I detected a kind of Flash-like flexibility of thinking and response. I’m excited to see more of his offracing.
That's true, but to be fair, FBH also split his wraiths, forcing Flash to split his mutas right?
On May 19 2020 23:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I agree, his Zerg has been shown to be not as good as his Protoss. He seems to be able to coordinate darkswarm with lurkers well enough.
Ya his ZvP seems pretty good but his ZvT is lacking. I have not seen his ZvZ but unless he can play a wonky style without Mutas hes probably in trouble. My guess is most Z would go 9 pool or 9 pool speedling vs his Random so he wont be getting much of an Advantage ZvZ with random.
On May 19 2020 21:23 Sadist wrote: Just watched his zvts vs by.barracks. im not sure if he randomed z or picked Z but the games werent all that impressive. His Muta micro is definitely lacking. I dont see him doing well vs ASL quality terrans until he sorts that out.
Sadist what you said is 100% true and is also sole reason he is playing against Barracks and not light atm. I am sure Flash is well aware of areas that he needs to work on as both Zerg and Protos and he is taking the first steps to solve them. Puting aside the long discussion on random pros & cons, Flash switched to challenge himself not because he is right now on ASL Champion level with the Z&P races but to work and hopefully become in the near future. Let's enjoy the ride!
kind of strange Flash beat a guy that made round 16 ASL and u guys already on the negative.Taking in consideration that he can play 3 races at the highest lvl i dont see so hard him winning light.afterall is not like his random will always be a zerg.and if it is the case light will still need to figure what race his oponent is playing. Someone like FlaSh will play all around build order , mindgames. an excellent decision making.
On May 21 2020 01:46 EndingLife wrote: I think Flash will do well with the exception of ZvZ and ZvT vs a few certain players. When will we see Flash vs Bisu RvR!?!?!?
FlaSh vs Bisu TvP, but it's random who get's what race
On April 30 2020 19:24 TornadoSteve wrote: I am not judging his skills, just his words He should perhaps be more careful about the statement he makes, especially with the number of viewers he gets every day. Please accept my apologies to have hurt your feelings with this comment about your boi!
On April 30 2020 14:58 TornadoSteve wrote: Since Flash has made this statement, has he played 1 game with random so far ? Arm injury/army/last ASL/retirement/random How many shots does korean have before losing credibility ?
Maybe you wanna keep making suggestions on how Flash should conduct himself? or maybe you want to keep attacking a man's credibility when he is not here to defend himself? Btw, not any man, but the one who build his reputation on beeing the best of the best, only through pure skill and hard work.
It is very funny because I think YOU should be more careful about the statements you make, even if you have 0 viewers, you are a no one and no one cares about your stupidity because, after all, you are still a man, but you could turn into a rat at any moment. Yeye you can say I'm so furious because I'm such a fanboy, the truth is I fucking hate rat people and I think I have a keen eye for detecting them, And don't bother answering me, you already showed yourself in those two messages, what a man of your caliber have to say about me means literally 0 to a person like me Have a nice day
Oh and people beeing not impressed by Flash Z and P is hilarious to say the least, it just only talks about how bad alienated some guys are. Or maybe some are afraid beeing impressed and uncool? I really don't get it In his PvP vs Free he already showed a build order that i havent seen in that match up ever before, so simple and so smart, oh and he rolled over Free with it but I guess that is "meh" for some poeple LOL!!! Look, another example,Flash Z vs Barracks T of him getting wins left and right with all 3 races versus ex progamers in long convincing games, so normal right? such a conventional feat... my god am I crazy?? who are these people? I, on the contrary, can't stop to marvel when I see what this man is capable of, he finds ways again and again to carry further and further away the fact that #1 of all time of all E-sports fall short to describe him
On May 01 2020 01:25 TornadoSteve wrote: Quite the opposite in my opinion, this should lead to more safe openings which will lead to longer games.
Don't know about that. If the other player wants to be safe, he has to delay his economy. Builds are already so optimized economically that if you waste money, delay, or deviate away from your B.O because of some non-existent threat that, against players who is at least equally proficient with the race you would just lose. Imagine playing 1 base protoss vs a random zerg because you can't forge FE because you haven't scouted out the other guy on a 4 player map. Yeah, the games will be a tad longer but it's just one side flow charting his way to a win.
The "equally proficient part", though, is what's interesting. It's a different case for Flash to pick random nowadays vs him picking random 10 years ago. 10 years ago the guy would have no chance. It doesn't matter what B.O advantage he would have gotten. If he played random and actually wanted to win when the game was still big he would most likely cheese every game and the outcome of the game would be decided on the first 5 min.
The reason why no one ever picked random pro play is because the fundamental they built up playing their main race is so strong and so ingrained from hours and hours of practice that they would just just flat out win vs the offracer as the better player. People here pointed out SaviOr vs GoRush as an example. Gorush is no pushover, but that map was a 61% TvZ map during the tail end of an era where Terran held all the advantages and SaviOr was just about the single most accomplished ZvT player to ever exist. GoRush worked the guy. It was embarrassing.
But that was years ago. People got lives and whatnot now and I doubt none of these guys are grinding the game 12 hours a day anymore. If anyone could offrace now, Flash would be the guy.
TLDR games will be unpredictable and str8 clown-fiestas because now everybody is bad.
On May 01 2020 01:25 TornadoSteve wrote: Quite the opposite in my opinion, this should lead to more safe openings which will lead to longer games.
Don't know about that. If the other player wants to be safe, he has to delay his economy. Builds are already so optimized economically that if you waste money, delay, or deviate away from your B.O because of some non-existent threat that, against players who is at least equally proficient with the race you would just lose. Imagine playing 1 base protoss vs a random zerg because you can't forge FE because you haven't scouted out the other guy on a 4 player map. Yeah, the games will be a tad longer but it's just one side flow charting his way to a win.
The "equally proficient part", though, is what's interesting. It's a different case for Flash to pick random nowadays vs him picking random 10 years ago. 10 years ago the guy would have no chance. It doesn't matter what B.O advantage he would have gotten. If he played random and actually wanted to win when the game was still big he would most likely cheese every game and the outcome of the game would be decided on the first 5 min.
The reason why no one ever picked random pro play is because the fundamental they built up playing their main race is so strong and so ingrained from hours and hours of practice that they would just just flat out win vs the offracer as the better player. People here pointed out SaviOr vs GoRush as an example. Gorush is no pushover, but that map was a 61% TvZ map during the tail end of an era where Terran held all the advantages and SaviOr was just about the single most accomplished ZvT player to ever exist. GoRush worked the guy. It was embarrassing.
But that was years ago. People got lives and whatnot now and I doubt none of these guys are grinding the game 12 hours a day anymore. If anyone could offrace now, Flash would be the guy.
TLDR games will be unpredictable and str8 clown-fiestas because now everybody is bad.
pretty funny way of looking at things when flash contradicts your last paragraph flash (and a lot of other pros for that matter) have repeatedly said on streams that their knowledge of the game has gotten better even compared to the kespa era. bisu is the only notable one off the top of my head who straight up thinks hes worse than his kespa self.
On May 01 2020 01:25 TornadoSteve wrote: Quite the opposite in my opinion, this should lead to more safe openings which will lead to longer games.
Don't know about that. If the other player wants to be safe, he has to delay his economy. Builds are already so optimized economically that if you waste money, delay, or deviate away from your B.O because of some non-existent threat that, against players who is at least equally proficient with the race you would just lose. Imagine playing 1 base protoss vs a random zerg because you can't forge FE because you haven't scouted out the other guy on a 4 player map. Yeah, the games will be a tad longer but it's just one side flow charting his way to a win.
The "equally proficient part", though, is what's interesting. It's a different case for Flash to pick random nowadays vs him picking random 10 years ago. 10 years ago the guy would have no chance. It doesn't matter what B.O advantage he would have gotten. If he played random and actually wanted to win when the game was still big he would most likely cheese every game and the outcome of the game would be decided on the first 5 min.
The reason why no one ever picked random pro play is because the fundamental they built up playing their main race is so strong and so ingrained from hours and hours of practice that they would just just flat out win vs the offracer as the better player. People here pointed out SaviOr vs GoRush as an example. Gorush is no pushover, but that map was a 61% TvZ map during the tail end of an era where Terran held all the advantages and SaviOr was just about the single most accomplished ZvT player to ever exist. GoRush worked the guy. It was embarrassing.
But that was years ago. People got lives and whatnot now and I doubt none of these guys are grinding the game 12 hours a day anymore. If anyone could offrace now, Flash would be the guy.
TLDR games will be unpredictable and str8 clown-fiestas because now everybody is bad.
pretty funny way of looking at things when flash contradicts your last paragraph flash (and a lot of other pros for that matter) have repeatedly said on streams that their knowledge of the game has gotten better even compared to the kespa era. bisu is the only notable one off the top of my head who straight up thinks hes worse than his kespa self.
Oh no, as far as game knowledge goes, I don't disagree. I don't think the rate of advancement on the theory side of the game is anywhere near as fast as it was back then, but it doesn't regressed. These guys have has years now to just sit back and think about the game. I'll be genuinely surprised if they don't think they got smarter about the game than they did back then.
That said, the play quality in the games these guys are streaming now are not even remotely close to the quality of the games we all know them for. Fast response time, crisp timings, clean macro and micro, all these things they acquired and maintained years back by literally not having a life outside practicing. You pick a random fpvod of a pro back when the proscene still exists and i guarantee you outside of theory everything is way ahead of whatever jaedong/flash/bisu/whoever is putting out right now.
If you haven't yet, you should watch Nal_ra's Old boy series. One of the best protoss to ever played during his heyday, he retired '08 and became a commentator for the main broadcasters of the game. In 2010 he tried to qualify for an OSL again, and the show documents the road leading up to the qualification tournament. Lo and behold the man was getting absolutely scraped the entire show by random players you never have even heard off. I'm pretty sure in one episode they pulled out a kid that was prepping for his Courage gauntlet (so the guy wasn't even a pro yet) and he lost to him too. I'm sure Nal_ra got smarter about the game, but the pro scene had pushed the burden of execution so insanely high in this game that if you don't have the hands and the muscle memory to just do stuff you have no chance, doesn't matter how knowledgeable you are.
Nowdays though, execution barrier is markedly lower, so it's kinda hard to tell what works and what doesn't. People lose sairs randomly. People run into mines randomly. People losing unnecessary units to lurkers. People's responses vs common harasses are just nowhere as sharp as before. You could tell it's humans playing now instead of cyborgs that roamed the top flight starcraft in the old days.
I have a bad memory, but it seems to me that the BW level nowadays is MILES AHEAD compared to chooseyourERA. I tried to watch a few old replays to help me to understand those who claims that the good old days were more skilled than now... didnt work. In fact, it conviced me even more that the best BW is right now. So i must look at the wrong replays/vods , so please post some vods guys, i would love to be wrong. On another thread if you prefer
On May 26 2020 00:22 TornadoSteve wrote: I have a bad memory, but it seems to me that the BW level nowadays is MILES AHEAD compared to chooseyourERA. I tried to watch a few old replays to help me to understand those who claims that the good old days were more skilled than now... didnt work. In fact, it conviced me even more that the best BW is right now. So i must look at the wrong replays/vods , so please post some vods guys, i would love to be wrong. On another thread if you prefer
It highly depends on what you watch tbh. The idea that BW today is so much worse outside of theory is nostalgia at its finest. There are games in the past that get matched by few nowadays and vice versa. The only point I can agree on is that reaction times were faster back then in general, but Flash himself came out and said a while back (several years ago) something along the lines of everyone's macro is on the same level so it's all about the mind games and such. Of course, you can interrupt that statement either way, but those who continued to play and improve their macro are much better players both macro-wise and theory-wise than they were back then.
This topic keeps coming up every once in a while and there's no answer that will perfectly satisfy either side imo. I'm personally thankful that SSL and ASL now kept the flaming going and that there are players who are taking this seriously and have practiced hard in the past (Last, Flash, Jaedong, hero etc...). Last not streaming for weeks during his KSL1 run for example. It's an interesting era we will live in.
On May 26 2020 00:22 TornadoSteve wrote: I have a bad memory, but it seems to me that the BW level nowadays is MILES AHEAD compared to chooseyourERA. I tried to watch a few old replays to help me to understand those who claims that the good old days were more skilled than now... didnt work. In fact, it conviced me even more that the best BW is right now. So i must look at the wrong replays/vods , so please post some vods guys, i would love to be wrong. On another thread if you prefer
This is what happens when you're just on point lol.
That’s pretty far from being a representative game from its era.
This whole “players suck now” idea seems grounded in theory more than observation. Flash himself said that some players have gotten better, others worse.
Watch Snow vs Last on Sylphid, in the match where Snow 3:0’d Last in ASL8, and tell me if you think Snow looks rusty.
On May 26 2020 01:40 Djabanete wrote: That’s pretty far from being a representative game from its era.
This whole “players suck now” idea seems grounded in theory more than observation. Flash himself said that some players have gotten better, others worse.
Watch Snow vs Last on Sylphid, in the match where Snow 3:0’d Last in ASL8, and tell me if you think Snow looks rusty.
There were also more games then. And when you have many games for a decade, you tend to forget the bad ones and remember the spectacular moments
On May 26 2020 01:40 Djabanete wrote: That’s pretty far from being a representative game from its era.
This whole “players suck now” idea seems grounded in theory more than observation. Flash himself said that some players have gotten better, others worse.
Watch Snow vs Last on Sylphid, in the match where Snow 3:0’d Last in ASL8, and tell me if you think Snow looks rusty.
Please go back and watch some games from that era. Of course that game is an exception even for those times but in general the level of play mechanical-wise has declined at the korean top. If you do direct comparisons it gets jarring very quickly and shows it's not just "theory". Flash's "quote" is used all over the place and everytime it sounds different to fit the context of the conversation as well...
On May 26 2020 01:40 Djabanete wrote: That’s pretty far from being a representative game from its era.
This whole “players suck now” idea seems grounded in theory more than observation. Flash himself said that some players have gotten better, others worse.
Watch Snow vs Last on Sylphid, in the match where Snow 3:0’d Last in ASL8, and tell me if you think Snow looks rusty.
Please go back and watch some games from that era. Of course that game is an exception even for those times but in general the level of play mechanical-wise has declined at the korean top. If you do direct comparisons it gets jarring very quickly and shows it's not just "theory". Flash's "quote" is used all over the place and everytime it sounds different to fit the context of the conversation as well...
To me it seems that players have gotten slightly worse at the "real time" part but much better at "strategy"
IMO, players are so much better nowadays, even "mechanically" there are units much better to micro thanks to the custom keys, even for pros they can multitask better.
Is there any evidence that practicing 8-12 hours a day is better for honing mechanics than, say, 6 hours a day? I get that some players might be worse mechanically than they were during the Kespa era if they're only practicing 2-3 hours daily while spending most of the day drinking soju and looking at titties (or worse, playing PUBG), but how much practice do you really need to stay in top physical shape?
On May 26 2020 07:18 StarscreamG1 wrote: IMO, players are so much better nowadays, even "mechanically" there are units much better to micro thanks to the custom keys, even for pros they can multitask better.
i think they would beat olden day players by using superior meta but their mechanics are probably a bit worse. Jaedong and Flash have both said they were basically stronger players in their progaming days.
Edit: Also, watch Jaedong 2009 WCG finals fpvod against Stork. His mechanics were something else back then.
On May 26 2020 07:18 StarscreamG1 wrote: IMO, players are so much better nowadays, even "mechanically" there are units much better to micro thanks to the custom keys, even for pros they can multitask better.
i think they would beat olden day players by using superior meta but their mechanics are probably a bit worse. Jaedong and Flash have both said they were basically stronger players in their progaming days.
Edit: Also, watch Jaedong 2009 WCG finals fpvod against Stork. His mechanics were something else back then.
flash has said numerously that he would beat his kespa self. jd says his game sense is better but his fingers are slower and bisu says he was just simply better in his kespa days. kinda makes sense because jd and bisu are more well known for purely dominating opponents mechanically whereas flash is known for his mind games/game sense etc (not that his mechanics are bad, just not the element of his game that defined him)
On May 26 2020 07:18 StarscreamG1 wrote: IMO, players are so much better nowadays, even "mechanically" there are units much better to micro thanks to the custom keys, even for pros they can multitask better.
i think they would beat olden day players by using superior meta but their mechanics are probably a bit worse. Jaedong and Flash have both said they were basically stronger players in their progaming days.
Edit: Also, watch Jaedong 2009 WCG finals fpvod against Stork. His mechanics were something else back then.
flash has said numerously that he would beat his kespa self. jd says his game sense is better but his fingers are slower and bisu says he was just simply better in his kespa days. kinda makes sense because jd and bisu are more well known for purely dominating opponents mechanically whereas flash is known for his mind games/game sense etc (not that his mechanics are bad, just not the element of his game that defined him)
Flash had incredible mechanics except for his multitasking. Not that that was bad but it didn't quite match the insane level of his other skills. I believe Flash said he would beat his Kespa-self but if his Kespa-self had some time to adjust to the new meta/get on par with the current knowledge his Kespa-self would win... Can someone find the exact quote? I think it was in an interview...
On May 26 2020 07:18 StarscreamG1 wrote: IMO, players are so much better nowadays, even "mechanically" there are units much better to micro thanks to the custom keys, even for pros they can multitask better.
i think they would beat olden day players by using superior meta but their mechanics are probably a bit worse. Jaedong and Flash have both said they were basically stronger players in their progaming days.
Edit: Also, watch Jaedong 2009 WCG finals fpvod against Stork. His mechanics were something else back then.
flash has said numerously that he would beat his kespa self. jd says his game sense is better but his fingers are slower and bisu says he was just simply better in his kespa days. kinda makes sense because jd and bisu are more well known for purely dominating opponents mechanically whereas flash is known for his mind games/game sense etc (not that his mechanics are bad, just not the element of his game that defined him)
Flash had incredible mechanics except for his multitasking. Not that that was bad but it didn't quite match the insane level of his other skills. I believe Flash said he would beat his Kespa-self but if his Kespa-self had some time to adjust to the new meta/get on par with the current knowledge his Kespa-self would win... Can someone find the exact quote? I think it was in an interview...
This is also what I've read in threads, all second hand "interpretations" though.. it would be interesting to read the actual interview translation. It's pretty obvious some are worse off vs kespa days (ie JD and Bisu). I think Flash is mixed. Might be even stronger in some stuff like TvT. And his last ASL championship was a masterpiece in TvP (both semis and finals). I think his TvZ might actually be weaker -- even though he now has a plethora of improved gas/non-bio builds, he has regressed to being quite vulnerable to early aggression, something he was very prone to during his '08-'09 slump.
I would say that that the overall level of mechanics is worse. Just compare muta micro and the marine micro counterplay and multitasking with kespa days. Three years ago, the level was obviously worse than kespa days. But the overall level is rising again. Perhaps it is simply a matter of surgery for RSI. In terms of game knowledge, they are better, but it's not like it is possible to lose game knowledge when they are the ones who are adding to game knowledge.
On May 26 2020 11:06 reincremate wrote: Is there any evidence that practicing 8-12 hours a day is better for honing mechanics than, say, 6 hours a day? I get that some players might be worse mechanically than they were during the Kespa era if they're only practicing 2-3 hours daily while spending most of the day drinking soju and looking at titties (or worse, playing PUBG), but how much practice do you really need to stay in top physical shape?
Soju and titties... I'm down for that after full 8 hour work practice.
On May 26 2020 11:06 reincremate wrote: Is there any evidence that practicing 8-12 hours a day is better for honing mechanics than, say, 6 hours a day? I get that some players might be worse mechanically than they were during the Kespa era if they're only practicing 2-3 hours daily while spending most of the day drinking soju and looking at titties (or worse, playing PUBG), but how much practice do you really need to stay in top physical shape?
I believe mechanics = muscle memory. By that logic, practicing as much possible (while making sure you're not getting injured) should improve your mechanics.
On May 26 2020 11:06 reincremate wrote: Is there any evidence that practicing 8-12 hours a day is better for honing mechanics than, say, 6 hours a day? I get that some players might be worse mechanically than they were during the Kespa era if they're only practicing 2-3 hours daily while spending most of the day drinking soju and looking at titties (or worse, playing PUBG), but how much practice do you really need to stay in top physical shape?
I believe mechanics = muscle memory. By that logic, practicing as much possible (while making sure you're not getting injured) should improve your mechanics.
I mean, I'm sure everyone agrees that practice is good overall, but there has to be a point where it's about maintenance for these players that have played the game for so long. For example, maybe someone only needs to practice 2 hours a day since they've practiced 8 hours a day for years and it's all ingrained subconsciously.
On May 26 2020 11:06 reincremate wrote: Is there any evidence that practicing 8-12 hours a day is better for honing mechanics than, say, 6 hours a day? I get that some players might be worse mechanically than they were during the Kespa era if they're only practicing 2-3 hours daily while spending most of the day drinking soju and looking at titties (or worse, playing PUBG), but how much practice do you really need to stay in top physical shape?
I believe mechanics = muscle memory. By that logic, practicing as much possible (while making sure you're not getting injured) should improve your mechanics.
I mean, I'm sure everyone agrees that practice is good overall, but there has to be a point where it's about maintenance for these players that have played the game for so long. For example, maybe someone only needs to practice 2 hours a day since they've practiced 8 hours a day for years and it's all ingrained subconsciously.
Fairly sure it's the same as with instruments or sports. If you practice hard (pro level) for years and take it down to 1/4 you will most certainly get quite a bit worse. However, it will come back relatively quick (compared to someone who was never at that level and is trying to get there) if you go back to your previous practicing regime.
Soju and titties in moderation (and raising your kids) is obviously better than 12 hours of grinding per day, because at some point you'll start getting diminishing or no returns from practice. I'm just curious as to what amount of daily training is optimal for pros trying to stay in peak mechanical shape. Doesn't seem like there's been much sports psychology research for esports in general.
Whats really really sick about it is that you show those games (lets say game 2) to anyone decent without saying who the p is; just with the speed reaction to hold the lings run by, the den target or the speed that he take care of his zeal(s) to not chase a single dra or target a building during the attack all while macroing without missing a beat...
who can it be? surely a top top protoss player but speed reaction eliminate stork; decision making and overall game kind of eliminates Mini and Best; perfect macro disqualify SnOw; mayyy beee Rain or mayyyyyyy beeeeee Bisu
zero weakness. this definy flash the best. its really insane. You almost can tell its flash as p even if u dont know whos playing.
variance: larva's face on the last zeals wave hitting his natural. clearly thats not a number (or perhaps a timing) he faced often in the past.
What I find more interesting is the fact that a lot of these games of top notch koreans look very scrappy in the late game, not so much because they make so much mistakes, it is more like that both bases lie in shambles production gets very slow because all worker died from all the heated battles everywhere on the map.
On June 01 2020 13:15 TornadoSteve wrote: Whats really really sick about it is that you show those games (lets say game 2) to anyone decent without saying who the p is; just with the speed reaction to hold the lings run by, the den target or the speed that he take care of his zeal(s) to not chase a single dra or target a building during the attack all while macroing without missing a beat...
who can it be? surely a top top protoss player but speed reaction eliminate stork; decision making and overall game kind of eliminates Mini and Best; perfect macro disqualify SnOw; mayyy beee Rain or mayyyyyyy beeeeee Bisu
zero weakness. this definy flash the best. its really insane. You almost can tell its flash as p even if u dont know whos playing.
variance: larva's face on the last zeals wave hitting his natural. clearly thats not a number (or perhaps a timing) he faced often in the past.
Agreed. I've been impressed by Flash's zealot micro, and his probe pull in game 2 was great too. And the decision making! When the zerglings broke into his natural, he didn't turn his zealots around even for a second. They just kept marching forward while the probes handled the situation at home. He was cool as a cucumber, just like when he plays Terran.
On June 01 2020 17:13 arkedos wrote: What I find more interesting is the fact that a lot of these games of top notch koreans look very scrappy in the late game, not so much because they make so much mistakes, it is more like that both bases lie in shambles production gets very slow because all worker died from all the heated battles everywhere on the map.
It is often so tense.
It's the maps. The third and other expoes aren't so defensible anymore.
I find it reasonable for Flash to reach Rain's level of Protoss with enough practice. I don't say Bisu's level purely because hardly anyone touches his peak PvZ.
I don't see Flash approaching peak Jaedong as Zerg without a 100% commitment to the race. The micro practice and nuances of Zerg require your full practice attention.
Rain is pretty much retired or in a long break unfortunately. Actually if someone knows more information about Rain please post it!
But Rain's pvz before he stopped to play was way way wayyyy more better than the actual Bisu's pvz. I thik he had no more motivation and that would explain his last offstage series against Light. I am looking both streams, Bisu looks like he cannot get back to his top form so id say that Flash p is better than Bisu p in all 3 mu atm
On June 03 2020 01:03 BisuDagger wrote: I find it reasonable for Flash to reach Rain's level of Protoss with enough practice. I don't say Bisu's level purely because hardly anyone touches his peak PvZ.
I don't see Flash approaching peak Jaedong as Zerg without a 100% commitment to the race. The micro practice and nuances of Zerg require your full practice attention.
Bisu's late game vs terran is plagued with the same mistakes he was making a decade ago. Bad stasises blocking his own army, few if no high templars, few if no cannons at expos, bad carrier control (if he goes carriers)... His aggression/micro is great, his early/mid game is good but he just can't finish the game if it goes too late (especially vs Flash). On the other hand, he is still amazing vs zergs.
On June 03 2020 02:00 TornadoSteve wrote: Rain is pretty much retired or in a long break unfortunately. Actually if someone knows more information about Rain please post it!
But Rain's pvz before he stopped to play was way way wayyyy more better than the actual Bisu's pvz. I thik he had no more motivation and that would explain his last offstage series against Light. I am looking both streams, Bisu looks like he cannot get back to his top form so id say that Flash p is better than Bisu p in all 3 mu atm
I'm refering to Bisu and Jaedong at their peak.
I'd say without Flash picking one race to practice: He will never reach Bisu's peak PvZ; He will never reach Jangbi's PvT. He will never reach Jaedong's peak ZvZ or ZvT.
In regards to Rain, are you seriously saying that Rain's peak PvZ was better then Bisu's peak? The guy has a 47% winrate in the matchup and it was an almost guarantee he'd be knocked out of the tournament if he met a quality Zerg player. I'm not sure any amount of motivation would get him close to Bisu's PvZ. I think Rain is an incredible player, but Protoss in generally are just simply bad vs Zerg. Mini, Snow, and Stork also have sub 50% winrates versus Zerg. As far as I know, BeSt is the only one who has shown promise in the matchup since returning to BW.
On June 04 2020 00:25 BisuDagger wrote:As far as I know, BeSt is the only one who has shown promise in the matchup since returning to BW.
And yet I have heard him say something like "I have given up vs Zerg" : O in my opinion, PvZ is the most imbalanced matchup and favors Z too much. The lategame especially favors Z (better defense, better attack), while there is no guarantee that you can get ahead of the Z in the early or midgame at all. That's how it feels and looks like to me but as a player I have also refused to do any FE cause I wanted to explore 1base opening style.
On June 04 2020 00:25 BisuDagger wrote:As far as I know, BeSt is the only one who has shown promise in the matchup since returning to BW.
And yet I have heard him say something like "I have given up vs Zerg" : O
Yeah, sadly he has lost momentum in the matchup. He was famous for Doh-sairs for a long time, then when he returned he suddenly started using them effectively and was seemingly the only Protoss for a while who was able to keep vision by air and survive until the midgame.
Wait….so Flash is actually showing promise? With the amount of people saying stuff that seemed that he would have a meme participation in ASL as random, I doubted him. How could have I doubted god.
Are his games just really good for a random player, or really good as in "yup that's a pro player from race x" ? Im dont have access to afreeca around here and due to IRL stuff i havent had the chance to catch up vods or youtube vídeos since the switch.
On June 04 2020 00:25 BisuDagger wrote:As far as I know, BeSt is the only one who has shown promise in the matchup since returning to BW.
And yet I have heard him say something like "I have given up vs Zerg" : O
Yeah, sadly he has lost momentum in the matchup. He was famous for Doh-sairs for a long time, then when he returned he suddenly started using them effectively and was seemingly the only Protoss for a while who was able to keep vision by air and survive until the midgame.
No worries. Shuttle will come back and lately Best and Snow have been doing good against Zerg. Huro, Brain and Mighty are also quite good (haven't seen much Mighty lately but atleast earlier this year.) Besides, I think maps have played huge role in the Protoss downfall.
On June 04 2020 02:44 KobraKay wrote: Wait….so Flash is actually showing promise? With the amount of people saying stuff that seemed that he would have a meme participation in ASL as random, I doubted him. How could have I doubted god.
Are his games just really good for a random player, or really good as in "yup that's a pro player from race x" ? Im dont have access to afreeca around here and due to IRL stuff i havent had the chance to catch up vods or youtube vídeos since the switch.
Ye Flash has his imba decission making. In PvZ this shows most, how he just knows when to attack and when to defend.
I just watched the first 3min of the game but I am speechless that Flash deduced a Hydra-bust just from seeing an overlord waiting at his mineral only. Maybe this is a normal reaction for higher level Protosses, but I never saw that before.
On June 09 2020 03:08 Cryoc wrote: I just watched the first 3min of the game but I am speechless that Flash deduced a Hydra-bust just from seeing an overlord waiting at his mineral only. Maybe this is a normal reaction for higher level Protosses, but I never saw that before.
On June 09 2020 03:08 Cryoc wrote: I just watched the first 3min of the game but I am speechless that Flash deduced a Hydra-bust just from seeing an overlord waiting at his mineral only. Maybe this is a normal reaction for higher level Protosses, but I never saw that before.
The overlord waiting at his natural instead of moving away from corsair path was a dead giveaway. Killer did not expect that, especially after killing a zealot just before that. The zealot poke to see the overlord sitting there was just insane. I also loved where Flash decided to build his 2nd and 3rd cannons (touching the forge) making it harder for hydras to poke down the forge without range.
double forge flash is looking scary... at 28:00 min he has 3-2-3 and then at some point afterwards gets the third shield upgrade. i love that attention to detail. it feels like we could enter a protoss golden age with random flash, bisu, on-form stork, new blood with fresh ideas like brain and the multitude of consistent, if not championship caliber players like best, snow, mini etc. (rip rain)
I've never seen that 1 zealot + 3 sairs counter to a hydra bust before, but I admit I haven't watched many games lately. Has anyone seen this being done before?
So why did Killer tap out? Also, if you end up turtling with DAs and massive amount of minerals in cache, wouldn't it make sense to build some shield batteries to heal DAs after casting mind control?
On June 09 2020 23:40 juvenal wrote: So why did Killer tap out? Also, if you end up turtling with DAs and massive amount of minerals in cache, wouldn't it make sense to build some shield batteries to heal DAs after casting mind control?
I think he was out gas and high tech units. Yeah, but you need a lot of them as DA has 200 shield (hard to fit at an expansion). Once you've casted the spell and managed to pull the DA back to the shield battery it has already survived as it wont be used for another 90 seconds or so hiding somewhere waiting for 150 more energy.
Flash is so amazing, he's constantly pushing the meta. Even though some of his ideas might not be fully viable, he's still pushing other players to truly think about the potential of each race. He has done this with terran for ever so it's interesting to see him do this with a different race. His understanding of the game is beyond any other player.
On May 26 2020 07:18 StarscreamG1 wrote: IMO, players are so much better nowadays, even "mechanically" there are units much better to micro thanks to the custom keys, even for pros they can multitask better.
i think they would beat olden day players by using superior meta but their mechanics are probably a bit worse. Jaedong and Flash have both said they were basically stronger players in their progaming days.
Edit: Also, watch Jaedong 2009 WCG finals fpvod against Stork. His mechanics were something else back then.
Jinjin made a translation video where Zero said players were way better mechanically back then but stronger now strategically. If present pro-gamers played their past selves, the present day would win for maybe 5-10 games before the past adapts to it and eventually come out ahead due to superior mechanics.
He also mentioned the practice schedules which were absolutely brutal back in the day. They would practice maybe 10-14 hours every day compared to not even half nowadays. So it's not much of a surprise that their mechanics have dropped off significantly since their progamer days.
On May 26 2020 07:18 StarscreamG1 wrote: IMO, players are so much better nowadays, even "mechanically" there are units much better to micro thanks to the custom keys, even for pros they can multitask better.
i think they would beat olden day players by using superior meta but their mechanics are probably a bit worse. Jaedong and Flash have both said they were basically stronger players in their progaming days.
Edit: Also, watch Jaedong 2009 WCG finals fpvod against Stork. His mechanics were something else back then.
Jinjin made a translation video where Zero said players were way better mechanically back then but stronger now strategically. If present pro-gamers played their past selves, the present day would win for maybe 5-10 games before the past adapts to it and eventually come out ahead due to superior mechanics.
He also mentioned the practice schedules which were absolutely brutal back in the day. They would practice maybe 10-14 hours every day compared to not even half nowadays. So it's not much of a surprise that their mechanics have dropped off significantly since their progamer days.
Saying current Afreeca pros are better than Kespa pros and would beat them in 2010 is like me saying I’m a better investor than Warren Buffett because I could pick better stocks than him in 1980 if I went back in a time machine with the benefit of hindsight.
On May 26 2020 07:18 StarscreamG1 wrote: IMO, players are so much better nowadays, even "mechanically" there are units much better to micro thanks to the custom keys, even for pros they can multitask better.
i think they would beat olden day players by using superior meta but their mechanics are probably a bit worse. Jaedong and Flash have both said they were basically stronger players in their progaming days.
Edit: Also, watch Jaedong 2009 WCG finals fpvod against Stork. His mechanics were something else back then.
Jinjin made a translation video where Zero said players were way better mechanically back then but stronger now strategically. If present pro-gamers played their past selves, the present day would win for maybe 5-10 games before the past adapts to it and eventually come out ahead due to superior mechanics.
He also mentioned the practice schedules which were absolutely brutal back in the day. They would practice maybe 10-14 hours every day compared to not even half nowadays. So it's not much of a surprise that their mechanics have dropped off significantly since their progamer days.
Saying current Afreeca pros are better than Kespa pros and would beat them in 2010 is like me saying I’m a better investor than Warren Buffett because I could pick better stocks than him in 1980 if I went back in a time machine with the benefit of hindsight.
What a great way to reduce Zero's 2 dimensional explanation to a 1 dimensional statement that you can easily ridicule with a barely fitting comparision of hindsight vs theoretical knowledge
On May 26 2020 07:18 StarscreamG1 wrote: IMO, players are so much better nowadays, even "mechanically" there are units much better to micro thanks to the custom keys, even for pros they can multitask better.
i think they would beat olden day players by using superior meta but their mechanics are probably a bit worse. Jaedong and Flash have both said they were basically stronger players in their progaming days.
Edit: Also, watch Jaedong 2009 WCG finals fpvod against Stork. His mechanics were something else back then.
Jinjin made a translation video where Zero said players were way better mechanically back then but stronger now strategically. If present pro-gamers played their past selves, the present day would win for maybe 5-10 games before the past adapts to it and eventually come out ahead due to superior mechanics.
He also mentioned the practice schedules which were absolutely brutal back in the day. They would practice maybe 10-14 hours every day compared to not even half nowadays. So it's not much of a surprise that their mechanics have dropped off significantly since their progamer days.
Saying current Afreeca pros are better than Kespa pros and would beat them in 2010 is like me saying I’m a better investor than Warren Buffett because I could pick better stocks than him in 1980 if I went back in a time machine with the benefit of hindsight.
The first and last random ASL to compete! Only 3rd and 4th place matches are left now! Will Lee Young-ho be able to win the 3rd and 4th place against Lim Hong-gyu?
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ASL Season 10 3rd Place Match 2020.11.07 19:00(KST) Youngho Lee (R) VS Hongkyu Lim (Z) Match 1: Eclipse Match 2: Plasma Match 3: Polypoid Match 4: Benzene Match 5: Optimizer
I guess this is it! Next ASL Flash will go with his main race, most certainly
hope so, either main race or to take a challenge with another race, but random just doesnt produce fun and competitive games, its mostly about BO, scouting advantages and sloppy decisions and plays
p.s. additionally I always thought that they should have made random show what race it gave and they should have done it 15 years ago when BW became competitive. Otherwise its just for gimmicks.
On November 09 2020 19:51 M2 wrote: hope so, either main race or to take a challenge with another race, but random just doesnt produce fun and competitive games, its mostly about BO, scouting advantages and sloppy decisions and plays
p.s. additionally I always thought that they should have made random show what race it gave and they should have done it 15 years ago when BW became competitive. Otherwise its just for gimmicks.
Going third place in highest caliber tournament is just sloppy plays and sloppy decisions? Random is way harder than sticking with just one race. Why do you think that random player should give out the only advantage when the disadvantage of having to practice three times more match ups heavily outweights it? Every other random player have failed to achieve what Flash achieved and saying it's all about builds and gimmicks is definitely an understatement.
any way to hate on flash basically and put down his accomplishments
"he just got lucky!" "random is sooo uncompetitive" bla bla. imagine preparing so much as a random player, getting to an unprecedented 3rd in a lan event and still seeing this sort of shit comments online to discredit your effort lolll
On November 09 2020 19:51 M2 wrote: hope so, either main race or to take a challenge with another race, but random just doesnt produce fun and competitive games, its mostly about BO, scouting advantages and sloppy decisions and plays
p.s. additionally I always thought that they should have made random show what race it gave and they should have done it 15 years ago when BW became competitive. Otherwise its just for gimmicks.
Going third place in highest caliber tournament is just sloppy plays and sloppy decisions? Random is way harder than sticking with just one race. Why do you think that random player should give out the only advantage when the disadvantage of having to practice three times more match ups heavily outweights it? Every other random player have failed to achieve what Flash achieved and saying it's all about builds and gimmicks is definitely an understatement.
I actually did not mean Flash at all, but the whole dynamic when there is random. The sloppy decisions and plays can come on both sides, mostly affecting the non random player if we have to go into the details. Additionally, I dont think picking random should provide any kind of advantages especially the one that it provides right now - making the other player going sub optimal build orders and guessing for no competitive reasons. You wanna go random and make the other person prepare vs 3 different possible races - be my guest, but it should not stay hidden and rely on imbalanced distribution of critical information imo
p.s. Random being hidden was/is especially dumb for the ladder games where every vs random player was some kind of gimmick that brought nothing meaningful to the table.
On November 09 2020 19:51 M2 wrote: hope so, either main race or to take a challenge with another race, but random just doesnt produce fun and competitive games, its mostly about BO, scouting advantages and sloppy decisions and plays
p.s. additionally I always thought that they should have made random show what race it gave and they should have done it 15 years ago when BW became competitive. Otherwise its just for gimmicks.
Going third place in highest caliber tournament is just sloppy plays and sloppy decisions? Random is way harder than sticking with just one race. Why do you think that random player should give out the only advantage when the disadvantage of having to practice three times more match ups heavily outweights it? Every other random player have failed to achieve what Flash achieved and saying it's all about builds and gimmicks is definitely an understatement.
I actually did not mean Flash at all, but the whole dynamic when there is random. The sloppy decisions and plays can come on both sides, mostly affecting the non random player if we have to go into the details. Additionally, I dont think picking random should provide any kind of advantages especially the one that it provides right now - making the other player going sub optimal build orders and guessing for no competitive reasons. You wanna go random and make the other person prepare vs 3 different possible races - be my guest, but it should not stay hidden and rely on imbalanced distribution of critical information imo
p.s. Random being hidden was/is especially dumb for the ladder games where every vs random player was some kind of gimmick that brought nothing meaningful to the table.
exactly my thoughts... in the end, random player gets huge advantage in curtain situations and it's just not fun to watch. If the race was shown to other player in the beginning of the game, then it would be quite alright.
Are you sure he is changing back to T? As I understand this post was before his 3rd place game. And in the interview after he won Larva, Tasteless translated that he does not know, if he stays as random or terran for next asl
The meta game of random is so interesting, and the smaller bits make it so fun to watch imo. Like Flash's scouting patterns change a lot as random to hide his race for as long as possible (overlord on plasma going to the corners instead of directly to the bases).
That being said, I do want to see him go back to Terran. playing random means only random really gets to play mindgames for the downside of having to know 3 races.
The first and last random ASL to compete! Only 3rd and 4th place matches are left now! Will Lee Young-ho be able to win the 3rd and 4th place against Lim Hong-gyu?
Why Lee Young-ho should watch ASL games on YouTube today!
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ASL Season 10 3rd Place Match 2020.11.07 19:00(KST) Youngho Lee (R) VS Hongkyu Lim (Z) Match 1: Eclipse Match 2: Plasma Match 3: Polypoid Match 4: Benzene Match 5: Optimizer
I guess this is it! Next ASL Flash will go with his main race, most certainly
Did I misunderstand this post? Afaik, Flash said in post game interview that he’s not sure what race he is playing next season.
The first and last random ASL to compete! Only 3rd and 4th place matches are left now! Will Lee Young-ho be able to win the 3rd and 4th place against Lim Hong-gyu?
Why Lee Young-ho should watch ASL games on YouTube today!
#1 A record of ASL's official broadcast will be uploaded because it cannot be broadcast today. Let's see the official video broadcast by Park Sang-hyun, Lee Seung-won, and Lim Seong-chun!
#2 Even if it ends in 3:0, even if it ends in 3:1, it is a spoiler prevention video and you do not know the match result! We upload a spoiler prevention video to prevent spoiling from the number of game videos! p.s Please refrain from dislike of spoiler prevention video (ㅠ_ㅠ)
Please wait after subscribing and setting the alarm!
ASL Season 10 3rd Place Match 2020.11.07 19:00(KST) Youngho Lee (R) VS Hongkyu Lim (Z) Match 1: Eclipse Match 2: Plasma Match 3: Polypoid Match 4: Benzene Match 5: Optimizer
I guess this is it! Next ASL Flash will go with his main race, most certainly
it sounds as though he's not sure if he'll go random next season, but he definitively says "this is the first and last Random-race ASL"
This experiment was pretty entertaining to watch. I really hope random doesn't become a common thing though. It makes for a poor viewing experience when RNG produces gigantic advantages or straight out wins before the players have even scouted each other. As fun as it was this once, i would rather not invite this element of luck into professional BW.
On November 09 2020 19:51 M2 wrote: hope so, either main race or to take a challenge with another race, but random just doesnt produce fun and competitive games, its mostly about BO, scouting advantages and sloppy decisions and plays
p.s. additionally I always thought that they should have made random show what race it gave and they should have done it 15 years ago when BW became competitive. Otherwise its just for gimmicks.
Going third place in highest caliber tournament is just sloppy plays and sloppy decisions? Random is way harder than sticking with just one race. Why do you think that random player should give out the only advantage when the disadvantage of having to practice three times more match ups heavily outweights it? Every other random player have failed to achieve what Flash achieved and saying it's all about builds and gimmicks is definitely an understatement.
I actually did not mean Flash at all, but the whole dynamic when there is random. The sloppy decisions and plays can come on both sides, mostly affecting the non random player if we have to go into the details. Additionally, I dont think picking random should provide any kind of advantages especially the one that it provides right now - making the other player going sub optimal build orders and guessing for no competitive reasons. You wanna go random and make the other person prepare vs 3 different possible races - be my guest, but it should not stay hidden and rely on imbalanced distribution of critical information imo
p.s. Random being hidden was/is especially dumb for the ladder games where every vs random player was some kind of gimmick that brought nothing meaningful to the table.
Random is not the reason someone plays sloppy, the reason is lack of experience. Sure random can force the game out of meta builds, but sloppyness is the players own fault. Picking a single race to stick with gives you advantage, picking random should also give you advantage.
EPT
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