EPTFlash says he will choose random - Page 11
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1717 Posts
On April 24 2020 03:28 onlystar wrote: i dont wish to hide my race from my opponents thats not the way i need to get my wins. im not that weak minded if i would random i would tell my opponents what race i got. idk dude.. i can also tell my opponent my BO to prove something to myself | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10569 Posts
On April 24 2020 01:12 onlystar wrote: just to be clear FlaShFTW is a random user he enjoys the advantage he gets in his games makes him feel special putting other players at a disadvantage from the start what a guy! and anyone who tells him that is not exactly fairplay is an absolute fool... just so you know what we are dealing with here You know, you couldn't have been more wrong. First off, I have never mained random in my entire life. I've mained all 3 races at different times in my life, but never random. If I did switch to random, it's not because I want the advantage, I just want to play all the races and have fun. You know, it's possible to play this game FOR FUN? Maybe it's a wild concept, it's clear you have very strong opinions on people not picking random for competitive integrity reasons, but I don't really play competitively that much. Sure I'll ladder, but I enjoy watching more than I enjoy playing c: Further, I never said you were an absolute fool, I just thought that your argument/counter-argument was terrible. In the legal field, we call this a "balancing test" when competing interests are at stake. We weigh the benefits, and the detriments out, and we examine them to reach a conclusion. It's clear we will never agree on this, and that's OK. I'm ok with not trying to change your mind anymore. My points have been laid out, my view is that time spent to learn all 3 races trumps the fact that you get to hide information about your starting race which only actually really puts Protoss at some disadvantage. Terran/Zerg both have excellent builds that are standard against all 3 races. Anyways, be careful. You don't want to have what happened to your intellectual buddy A.Alm happen to you. Address my arguments and points, not me as a person. On April 24 2020 01:49 Anc13nt wrote: There was some player named OseyoGaseyo who really likes to make a PvZ style wall in PvP with some success. I don't know how he pulls it off though. I was gonna say that doesn't quite work since ranged goons shred walls and those get rushed in PvP. It's an interesting concept to be sure though. I'd have to see VODs of how he does it. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Flash has been playing so long, and so accomplished and so many hours, the disadvantage of learning new matchups would not affect him as much as it would to players with lesser hours in the game. There are 9 matchup in the game, 3 are already what he mains as, 2 would be the reversal of his main, leaving only 4 matchups to consider learning. Most pros what what can be seen in streams are competent playing off races. Not as good as their main, but good enough to provide realistic practice to other pros. If Flash uses the BO advantage of random he should have a good chance of winning the next ASL. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7663 Posts
My gut says it would be more like efforts 7-11 hat lurker-ling-scourage approach rather then 5-6 hat hydra-muta style. It would be really jaw dropping if he is able to make strategic contributions to the other races. Protoss is strange, he could end up a delicate wizard like Bisu, a mental toss like Rain- Stork or a beast like Jangbi-best. ZvT, I have no expectations. I cannot imagine him competing against himself or light anytime soon but I am probably an idiot..... If he has a +70 winrate with a second race.... we will need new terms to describe him. He is our first player to become so elite nobody elses modern accomplishments are relevent and he is not defined by a rivalry. Flash.... what a unique dude. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden561 Posts
On April 24 2020 08:29 FlaShFTW wrote: You know, you couldn't have been more wrong. First off, I have never mained random in my entire life. I've mained all 3 races at different times in my life, but never random. If I did switch to random, it's not because I want the advantage, I just want to play all the races and have fun. You know, it's possible to play this game FOR FUN? Maybe it's a wild concept, it's clear you have very strong opinions on people not picking random for competitive integrity reasons, but I don't really play competitively that much. Sure I'll ladder, but I enjoy watching more than I enjoy playing c: Further, I never said you were an absolute fool, I just thought that your argument/counter-argument was terrible. In the legal field, we call this a "balancing test" when competing interests are at stake. We weigh the benefits, and the detriments out, and we examine them to reach a conclusion. It's clear we will never agree on this, and that's OK. I'm ok with not trying to change your mind anymore. My points have been laid out, my view is that time spent to learn all 3 races trumps the fact that you get to hide information about your starting race which only actually really puts Protoss at some disadvantage. Terran/Zerg both have excellent builds that are standard against all 3 races. Anyways, be careful. You don't want to have what happened to your intellectual buddy A.Alm happen to you. Address my arguments and points, not me as a person. I was gonna say that doesn't quite work since ranged goons shred walls and those get rushed in PvP. It's an interesting concept to be sure though. I'd have to see VODs of how he does it. We were addressing your arguments and points. You're the one claiming people are bad at the game for not agreeing with you, hence making it personal. You also said anyone who thinks Terran is the best race uses "illogical thinking", which is a personal insult to their intellect. In this post alone you ironically call me intellectual and threaten people that they'll get banned if they follow my lead. You are extremely arrogant and seem to have a hard on for authority. You want evidence for everything people post here (even though this is pure speculation) but at the same time you try to convert speculation in to mathematical equations by making up numbers based on "my very good logic i are super smart". The only reason you're not banned and we are is because you're a writer for TL. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7663 Posts
Looking back on my 17 years posting here, I have to say my biggest reoccurring mistake is that I have repeatedly underestimated the value and talent of the people I disagree with or dislike. I have made an ass out of myself a few times. I see myself in your remarks in this thread. I hope things are well for you in the real world. If they aren't, hit me up, I have a lot of time to kill. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 21 2020 01:32 FlaShFTW wrote: But such is the power held in TL. Being a writer makes you immune. Tesagi.You've convinced me. What a fantastic argument. Your logic is bad and you should feel bad. Arguments will neccessarily take either sides, but it was Flashftw that made it personal and gets away with it, and then threatens that anybody else that disagrees with him will get banned. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium7181 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden561 Posts
On April 26 2020 20:01 AttackZerg wrote: A.Alm, Looking back on my 17 years posting here, I have to say my biggest reoccurring mistake is that I have repeatedly underestimated the value and talent of the people I disagree with or dislike. I have made an ass out of myself a few times. I see myself in your remarks in this thread. I hope things are well for you in the real world. If they aren't, hit me up, I have a lot of time to kill. You're spot on... The truth is my mental illness does not allow me to comprehend numbers very well, and tbh it's really embarrassing whenever someone brings up mathematics in an argument so i just try to change the subject. I would like your help. If it goes well, i might be able to comprehend how random players need to play 2.33 times as much as a race-pickers, because currently it makes me dumber trying to make sense of it. And let's be honest, i'm already pretty stupid, hehe. I have time tomorrow at 3 PM GMT+2 right after my anonymous alcoholics meeting. Hit me up! | ||
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
If randoming is a tournament legal tactic, then to all those that says Flash shouldn't be doing it because of blah blah integrity, blah blah fairness should read Sirlin's famous "Play to Win". In Sirlin's words, those that argue against Random from this perspective are scrubs (bold emphasis mine): The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win. I for one think that Random is not as easy as it sounds and Flash would not fare too well with it, but it would certainly be an interesting experiment. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
a: Random gives you a disadvantage because you have to practice for way more matchups and learn way more mechanics b: Random gives you an advantage because of information at the start of the game Now is the advantage from "a" bigger, smaller or equal to "b"? You can discuss or look the data. What does data say: 20 years of professionell, talented, organized gamers playing against each other with lots of money on the line. So far no one has been able to make random work. What does discussion say: Some random guy on TL claiming all progamers, coaches, teams so far have been wrong for 20 years and "random is OP". Not just competitive, straight out OP. Better than what the entire pro scene has chosen for 20 years. This is so, so very stupid. I don't even know how to emphasize how fucking stupid this is. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8930 Posts
On April 27 2020 01:41 Jacenoob wrote: This discussion is still so very, very stupid. We have these as facts. a: Random gives you a disadvantage because you have to practice for way more matchups and learn way more mechanics b: Random gives you an advantage because of information at the start of the game Now is the advantage from "a" bigger, smaller or equal to "b"? You can discuss or look the data. What does data say: 20 years of professionell, talented, organized gamers playing against each other with lots of money on the line. So far no one has been able to make random work. What does discussion say: Some random guy on TL claiming all progamers, coaches, teams so far have been wrong for 20 years and "random is OP". Not just competitive, straight out OP. Better than what the entire pro scene has chosen for 20 years. This is so, so very stupid. I don't even know how to emphasize how fucking stupid this is. youre an idiot. b is quite arguably bigger than a. thats the whole point of the discussion in this thread. like eonzerg rightly pointed out, 90% of the idiots in this thread are basing the feasibility of playing random on their own skill levels. the fact is flash doesnt have much to learn even if he switches races. "new mechanics"? what...did you think flash would have to learn muta micro from scratch or reaver shuttle micro from scratch? do you think flash doesnt already know the fundamentals of how every single build in every matchup works? all hes missing at most is subtle nuances that can be learnt from other pros given time and overall match experience, which will also come with a bit of time. it doesnt matter how good bisu is at pvz, if bisu is forced to play a 1 base gate opening vs a half decent pro zerg he will lose a substantial amount of games. thats how itll be if he one day vses flashs random zerg User was warned for this post. | ||
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Jacenoob
299 Posts
On April 27 2020 02:20 evilfatsh1t wrote: youre an idiot. b is quite arguably bigger than a. thats the whole point of the discussion in this thread. like eonzerg rightly pointed out, 90% of the idiots in this thread are basing the feasibility of playing random on their own skill levels. the fact is flash doesnt have much to learn even if he switches races. "new mechanics"? what...did you think flash would have to learn muta micro from scratch or reaver shuttle micro from scratch? do you think flash doesnt already know the fundamentals of how every single build in every matchup works? all hes missing at most is subtle nuances that can be learnt from other pros given time and overall match experience, which will also come with a bit of time. it doesnt matter how good bisu is at pvz, if bisu is forced to play a 1 base gate opening vs a half decent pro zerg he will lose a substantial amount of games. thats how itll be if he one day vses flashs random zerg A bit of repeating myself, but I am not basing this on my own skill level... you seem to be projecting. I am basing this on 20 years of data from the Korean pro scene. Players, coaches, managers. Several hundreds of people who dedicated their life to Starcraft. What data is your opinion based on? Where are all the "Random" tournament wins? Proleague wins? I mean they surely should be there after tens of thousands of games if "Random" truly is OP. | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On April 26 2020 20:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote: He's right though. Flashftw's posts is hypocritical. Remember it all started with But such is the power held in TL. Being a writer makes you immune. Tesagi. Arguments will neccessarily take either sides, but it was Flashftw that made it personal and gets away with it, and then threatens that anybody else that disagrees with him will get banned. Now that is uncalled for. I might or might not agree with FlashFTW's arguments, but I definitely do not feel immune. That being said, taking such discussions on a personal level is quite low, I'd say. And a sizable portion of the thread consists of insults. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
As a 'murican, it reminds me of Tom Brady joining a new NFL team just last month - what crazy times we live in now | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10569 Posts
On April 26 2020 20:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote: He's right though. Flashftw's posts is hypocritical. Remember it all started with But such is the power held in TL. Being a writer makes you immune. Tesagi. Arguments will neccessarily take either sides, but it was Flashftw that made it personal and gets away with it, and then threatens that anybody else that disagrees with him will get banned. I literally tell him his argument is bad. I don't say anything about HIM. How is this hypocritical? The comment I'm responding to literally calls me emotional. Even if I did respond to him with some ad hominem, I didn't even start it STILL. So everything in your post is just wrong. On April 26 2020 19:37 A.Alm wrote: We were addressing your arguments and points. You're the one claiming people are bad at the game for not agreeing with you, hence making it personal. You also said anyone who thinks Terran is the best race uses "illogical thinking", which is a personal insult to their intellect. In this post alone you ironically call me intellectual and threaten people that they'll get banned if they follow my lead. You are extremely arrogant and seem to have a hard on for authority. You want evidence for everything people post here (even though this is pure speculation) but at the same time you try to convert speculation in to mathematical equations by making up numbers based on "my very good logic i are super smart". The only reason you're not banned and we are is because you're a writer for TL. I don't know where I said people are bad at the game, do you mind finding me that one? Or is this another one of your unsubstantiated takes just like you claiming random being banned at tournaments is the current status quo? And no, I don't have a hard on for authority, I have a hard on for at least reasonable arguments instead of ad hominems like what onlystar said. You don't seriously believe that Onlystar didn't deserve some kind of mod action do you? Do you not see how much of a false dichotomy you present when you say this: " You want evidence for everything people post here (even though this is pure speculation) but at the same time you try to convert speculation in to mathematical equations by making up numbers based on "my very good logic i are super smart"." Like, do you understand how evidence works? Do you realize there is such things called hypotheticals and estimations? Do you realize that a significant portion of our world actually revolves around these? The hypothetical of what will happen in the future, statistics, predictions, etc. Everything we do uses an estimation. You can accept my estimate or not, you should tell me why my estimate was wrong. You tried to use AOE as an example to say that it doesn't make sense and it would be the same thing as saying 30 civs = 30x more time. I countered by saying there is only a few notable differences between each civ in the form of uniques which makes the transfer skill from one civ to the next a lot compared to starcraft where 1 race has very few similarities with other races. | ||
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