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AIIKIII
5 Posts
why do you think there are so many bgh map versions fixing that issue and removing the high ground? what you prefer to play against doesnt matter, if there are lots of games where you simply can not prepare against high ground attacks, because you need to adjust your build against other tactics. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
It's just not that strong of a build. I see it frequently from 1500 mmr-ish terrans, almost never from 2500+ terrans. There's a reason for that. Maybe it's a bit 'too strong' on the lower mmrs because players aren't able to punish or adjust to the inaction. Maybe it's a bit too strong in certain setups, like a terran+zerg spawning 11+12 and doing fast tank drop together with 2h muta. But in general, the solution to this is just 'get better', it's not something that requires fixing the map. Like, whether marines spawn inside or outside your wallin is a much bigger positional imbalance than this is. (That's probably harder to fix though, admittingly.) | ||
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AIIKIII
5 Posts
you are arguing like: sure, women earn less than men, but since most of them are married anyway and have a shared bank account it doesnt matter anyway. so its not a problem, when in the overall picture everything is balancing out and only a few of them are actually getting less. that is EXACTLY how you argue. i agree with you, that its not the best build, that you can take advantage of it and so on, but your thought process completely ignores the facts and that there are easy fixes for an unfair imbalance that exists - and that this exists in a bghmmr ladder, that is SUPPOSED TO MAKE IT MORE BALANCED ... you see the irony? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
This topic was already addressed more than a year ago. To quote the guy in charge of the ladder: At first I used modified version of the map and tried to get rid of those issues but some players were really angry for changing map. In the end original version is the least controversial and people are used to play it the most. So it seems fair to use it. Anyway, women making less than men is a real problem. But if the actual discrepancy between male and female pay was about $0.5 per year, not even Valerie Solanas would care about it.. I'm arguing that this imbalance is of that magnitude. Cannon rushes behind mineral lines or marines spawning outside of walls is at least of some significance - had you focused on either of those instead, I wouldn't have posted what I did. | ||
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AIIKIII
5 Posts
some people are angry about changing the map? some people are angry about not changing the map, what kind of argument is that? people voted for brexit and now a lot of them regret it, popularity is not an argument. people will always cry about changes and take some time to adjust before noticing it is actually better. what about all the new players who leave the game after being tank dropped multiple times? sure, we cannot fix all imbalances, but if we can at least fix some of them EASILY, we should do it. if you use proper bgh maps canon rushes behind mineral lines also become less common, as you have have easier access to the back of your mineral line to stop it, or is that your concern? that cheese is less viable and it should be? you say there arent 0 negatives, but you havent listed any. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
I do have a lot of games played with this bot, and I'm fairly confident that overall, the team with the tank dropper has lost more than the team with the tank droppee. If I have a terran partner and he goes for fast drop, then I'm unhappy about it - I want my terran partners to open either bio or vulture. That said - I do actually like the diversity it brings. I mean, if you're obsessed with bgh balance, then this should be really low on your priority list. Fixing 11+12 and 6+7 are bigger deals. Marines spawning inside instead of outside is actually an imbalance where 'play better' isn't a solution. Tanks from 12 or 9 or 7 or 5 being able to hit the naturals of 1 or 11 or 9 or 6 is a bigger deal. But people are used to playing this. I'm used to playing this. The randomness of it all is part of the charm. And popularity of the decision obviously matters. If 95% of people playing the ladder wanted this changed, I'd totally support it. If 95% are opposed, it'd be a terrible decision. In reality I'm guessing it's like 5% really want it changed and 5% really don't want it changed and 90% don't really care. (I'm in the ladder group, for the record - but if you force me to choose, then I go with 'don't change' it.) | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9475 Posts
As far as the tank drops go, you would never see it being used at the highest of levels. The simple reason being that it's relatively easy to defend against and it basically makes the game 3v2 against the team that goes for a tank drop. And this is a really weird thing to focus on if balancing BGH is so important to you. The biggest balance "issue" in BGH has always been that Protoss is the strongest race, which is why pretty much all BGH tournaments were reduced to mostly PPP v PPP finals. | ||
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Dakota_Fanning
Hungary2335 Posts
There are 74 variants of BGH on repmastered.app, none comes even close to the original in popularity. Even most of the variants don't try to make it more balanced, and those that do, they just never really took off. There's no point beating a dead horse. If you want balanced games, there are many close to perfect and popular low money maps. BGH is simply not about balance but about fun. I do believe being unbalanced plays a big part in delivering eternal fun. I believe BGH is the oldest and only map that remained popular since its release, even The Lost Temple faded away. | ||
HaN-
France1919 Posts
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AIIKIII
5 Posts
On August 14 2021 20:23 Dakota_Fanning wrote: This has come up so many times. its funny how on one side people say its no big deal, it should stay that way, majority wants it, yet there are constant complains about it ... btw a poll in a biased environment leads to nothing anyway. all i can say is i havent heard a single good argument against it ... anyway its probably not going to change, but i voiced my opinion. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1234 Posts
Put more pressure on Terrans who walls. If they go quick tank drop on ledge you should kick their ass in little time because they have no defense. Any Terran who walls early are easy targets for harass, also you get good intel from harass. There are plenty of imbalanced sh!t on this map. Protoss walling off center with cannons for example is insanely op against Terrans and makes it very quickly a 3v2 with an easy win incoming. TTT btw is the worst combination on BGH, kinda says something doesnt it? If all 3 would go Tank drops you think it would be a win? No. Just defend the ledge if you think its a tank drop. It isnt hard at all. | ||
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D3AD-R3TARD
Poland288 Posts
I don't consider tank drop to be the biggest one, since you always have time to prepare for this. However, the fact that TT teams are so weak is a problem since many players play random and cant avoid this team composition. Also, 11 & 12 positions are just too close. That being said, the reality is that people play BGHMMR bot because they love BGH, not the other way around. Meaning that changing the league to be perfectly balanced will not work, as people only want to play original BGH. People who just as 2Pocalypse played BGH for more than a decade. As for 3/5 minute rule: I agree that there are games where all players had time to shine, nobody did an all in strat and still the game ended in 5 minutes. And yeah, those games should count - the problem is that I can't distinguish those games from cases where bad decision of one player ended the game without other players having time to do anything. So yeah, sometimes you don't get points when you win fair and square, but also you don't lose the points when your ally misclicked, messed his wall and lost to one zealot. | ||
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Deleted User 556753
126 Posts
please make that game count somehow, bot disc when it was 99% over and 3v1 already for several minutes. Happens quite frequently in the last weeks btw that bot disc during game.. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gXxOjCj.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/0R4NwiA.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/8pzVi8S.png) | ||
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247
Romania45 Posts
in a 3v3 or 4v4 all you have to do is scout the terran player who walls, early e-bay scout, overlords, scans, and if you are all P team and see a terran walling and inactive on the map just harras the wall (they have no units and auto-win) or put 2 cannons, or have goons ready most of the times T who cliff-drop don't have a back-up plan (aka noobs), so as a team of 3 or 4, plan from the start to early scout and it's and easy win for the team pro tips : if for whatever reason you can't scout them and you or your team spawns in a droppable position, as a T make an early e-bay and float it over the edge (yours or your ally's), as Z you can group some overlords on the edge (harder, but doable), and as P just defensive cannons, ez | ||
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D3AD-R3TARD
Poland288 Posts
I get that disconnected games are frustrating, I experience this as well, but I can't, think of a safe and automatic way to avoid this problem. Knowing that there are already ppl who try to hack the system accepting uploaded replays is something I don't consider ATM. The fact that SCBW has a basic connectivity issue is up to Blizzard, and they don't seem to invest time into correcting this. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2029 Posts
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Dakota_Fanning
Hungary2335 Posts
On August 22 2021 03:41 kogeT wrote: The only thing i would fix about original bgh version is bad mineral lines - like top right and some other positions is such a joke. Rest positional things do not matter as in 3v3 or 4v4 each team is exposed to its individual challenges. Yes, that's a real issue, for details and analysis, see  Resources Income (BGH)BTW: top right position (1) is the best position regarding mining efficiency. 7 and 5 positions are the worst ones regarding mineral mining efficiency, and 11 if we also take gas mining into account: ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/7/7c/Bghmoneyaccesssmall.jpg) But it's like the "butterfly effect": changing the locations of a few mineral patches, that would screw up lots of "micro" strategies like blocking / cannoning behind mineral lines. So I wouldn't change anything in BGH. Just know the advantages and disadvantages of your position and plan and play accordingly. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1234 Posts
As for Terran the pathing of that mineral is terrible but thats not the same for the other races. As a T player on BGH top right this always aggregate(wrong word? Anger?) me for racial differences. | ||
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pebble444
Italy2495 Posts
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Tempest(DLS)
United Kingdom13 Posts
On August 23 2021 03:04 pebble444 wrote: Don’ t listen to them BGH. Your perfect the way you are Modern society is awful these days for unrealistic | ||
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