Thank you as always jinjinn! Thank was very interesting
Also @BigFan: Flash was nervous vs effort. You heard that??? :D
On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote: Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him.
This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this.
Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds.
I'm glad I read the other replies before feeling like a fool because I'm unfamiliar with Dazed's antics
On August 26 2019 01:18 Terrorbladder wrote: who's Dazed and what did he do/say
He went against the religious believers. Now he is character assassinated all the time, without giving any valid reasons why he was wrong or weather or not there is some merit to what he was saying. He got banned from this forum because he posted a MEME picture which is against the rules.
Some smuck searched his old history, to character assassinate him. Didnt give any reasons why he was wrong. He got patted on the back for that behavior, "Good job".
Typical behavior in a religion. Some smuck is probably trying to look up what religion means, to attack my message right now.
In latin religion means to hold back so there is that.
There are many hard counters in broodwar and this removes a lot of dynamic and tactics. Even strategies. There is not much one can do with the units available. And the race on top of this, determines the strength.
Terran bio has map control in the mid stages of tvz for example. Zerg CANT fight back with ling and lurker, zerg needs defilers.
There are many forced moves in this game, and quite frankly many spells are really dull. Plague comes to mind against bio.
For balance probably needed, but one can clearly see that broodwar could use changes, and changes if done in a good way could actually .. wait for it.. IMPROVE the game!
On August 26 2019 11:09 SCC-Faust wrote: Is this another irony post above me? I can't tell.
I think that one is real.
Dazed wasn't a bad guy. I had nothing against him.
But the cringe inducing arguments like the one above are pretty hard to be around.
At the top levels in bw, sc2 or chess there is less variation because optimal play destroys certain things. At the tops of any strategy game, if the game is worth playing, there are 'realities' that you can't wish yourself out of.
For everyone who is not an S class gamer, there is an incredible amount of variety and the 'realities' are less true, the lower the skill threshhold. E.G the poster above says "Things are forced you can't fight lurker/ling v marines without defiler"
Well, I have an account sitting at 1860 mmr vs all koreans where I do nothing but fake 3 hat muta into 4 hat +1 carpace lurker/ling. Turns out, not everyone can control marines as good as pro gamers (who would have thought?) and builds that are sub-optimal gain strength due to novelty, audacity and the physical limitations of the players in dealing with them.
Innovation is slow, especially once all the units are being used already, look at chess. A new chess opening gets analyzed for 50+ years until it's either considered strong or obsolete.
For PvZ I think it's even harder because all the units and spells are already being used, I think I'd just like to see zerg use plague more creatively, like dropiing defilers or using them against cannons before attacking. Also haven't seen P use hallucination very often even though sometimes you're left with 8-10 lone templars which you can't cast 10 storms on because it's too micro intensive. Also hallucinating sairs and wiping out all overlords while scourge can't tell which one to hit.
Dazed spoke out against the Cult of Brood War, and their holy build-orders that they treasure like Sméagol with the Ring. The Church of Metagaming casts out heretics, because they have the audacity to suggest a game like Brood War should ever change. All I see is the same people posting over and over, affirming to each other how the game is so perfect while the player numbers dwindle down to nothing as it refuses to adapt to change.
There is no innovation, no player-made changes, the same maps for decade. This is why my 19 real-life friends who all played Brood War with vivid enthusiasm all quit, and refuse to return. It's the same build orders every game ad nauseum forever with no opportunity for creativity or deviation. When I made my balance suggestions, the church cried "Burn the witch!" like the entranced sheep they are.
On August 26 2019 16:55 ninazerg wrote: Dazed spoke out against the Cult of Brood War, and their holy build-orders that they treasure like Sméagol with the Ring. The Church of Metagaming casts out heretics, because they have the audacity to suggest a game like Brood War should ever change. All I see is the same people posting over and over, affirming to each other how the game is so perfect while the player numbers dwindle down to nothing as it refuses to adapt to change.
There is no innovation, no player-made changes, the same maps for decade. This is why my 19 real-life friends who all played Brood War with vivid enthusiasm all quit, and refuse to return. It's the same build orders every game ad nauseum forever with no opportunity for creativity or deviation. When I made my balance suggestions, the church cried "Burn the witch!" like the entranced sheep they are.
Hhahahahhahahahha
The compilation of your seige tank quotes has me horse-laughing. Thanks.
Meanwhile the Koreans doesn't give a f of your complaints because they live sc1 as a sport instead of a random Barbie videogame. Nobody expected big meta changes and nobody was looking for it. Big or small meta changes are all welcome but not required at all and with a decent paradigm shift you might grasp how serene and happy is a gamer life without cataclysmic expectations on his favorite sport.
This interesting reddit post summarises the concept pretty well and it applies to real life sport too where people live their life happy to see champions mastering their skill and getting excited of tiny meta changes in sports that are extremely old and figured out.
Learn to be happy with the sport you like or just move to another sport or quit following sports altogether if you don't have a competitive mindset that brings you joy with simple things like mastering a single build/meta for years.
I wish lot of happiness and serenity to all of you
On August 26 2019 11:09 SCC-Faust wrote: Is this another irony post above me? I can't tell.
I think that one is real.
Dazed wasn't a bad guy. I had nothing against him.
But the cringe inducing arguments like the one above are pretty hard to be around.
At the top levels in bw, sc2 or chess there is less variation because optimal play destroys certain things. At the tops of any strategy game, if the game is worth playing, there are 'realities' that you can't wish yourself out of.
For everyone who is not an S class gamer, there is an incredible amount of variety and the 'realities' are less true, the lower the skill threshhold. E.G the poster above says "Things are forced you can't fight lurker/ling v marines without defiler"
Well, I have an account sitting at 1860 mmr vs all koreans where I do nothing but fake 3 hat muta into 4 hat +1 carpace lurker/ling. Turns out, not everyone can control marines as good as pro gamers (who would have thought?) and builds that are sub-optimal gain strength due to novelty, audacity and the physical limitations of the players in dealing with them.
I think it's fine to be bored of a game, what doesn't make sense is to be bored of a game and keep playing it and complaining about it. If a whole new a experience is what a person wants, why not play a new RTS? IE what majority of people plays game do: play a new game. Playing the same game for 20 years is by necessity saying that you appreciate what's already there and more subtle changes.
I'm bored of coffee. It's all just bean water. One is just like another, with no real differences. Coffee is stale. Other drinks are available? Please ban me from this coffee forum so that I can finally be released from my curse.
Thank you for the video, it was super interesting. I do struggle to gain insights into the meta / why things work and explanations like this make me wish I spoke Korean. And as a lot of posters above have mentioned, in games like mine, anything goes lol. So I don't get to understand the pros subtleties often.
Here we have another interesting documentary about the rise and fall of Heroes of the Storm that brings some light on how automation and simplicity can hurt an esport competitive scene.
With the premise that mobas are structurally "made" for constant updates, much much more than rts, it's easy to figure out the concept of how automation and simplification can lead to a stale in the competitive scene meta. That concept doesn't contradict my previous point but complement it with the fact that hard videogames or sports can still offer never-ending changes in the meta even if exponentially smaller with the passage of time.
it's not a secret that Blizzard have turned more and more casual friendly over the years and lost his way of seeking a true balance between the hardcore and the casual community, (I mean, getting rid of that strong RPG feeling and level of complexity of items in a moba really says a lot about modern Blizzard mindset).
We know now that the modern Blizzard formula have failed and in such a huge and volatile gaming industry the casuals are always moving to the next trendy game which lead to an infinite running over the carrot, not only for casuals but for the industry as a whole.
In our time a gaming company is forced to take risky decisions, either in the casual way or in the competitive way but trying to make everybody happy can result in the end of a company.
Patch a game to fix minor things, bring out of meta units in, and nerf broken ones.
Don't patch a game much and hope the balance of the units was pretty good the last state and that the players will "figure out" how to handle broken things.
This is the universe we live in. SC2 keeps patching with massive "change the world" patches which drastically change how units interact and that forces the players to make large changes to their gameplay every year/patch.
SCBW doesn't. The gameplay changes in much smaller ways based on patches and discoveries.
Depends what y'all like. I think 90% of the people I know who don't play SCBW is because its "old" and "too hard". I've never heard "stale meta".
On August 26 2019 23:24 Muff2n wrote: Thank you for the video, it was super interesting. I do struggle to gain insights into the meta / why things work and explanations like this make me wish I spoke Korean. And as a lot of posters above have mentioned, in games like mine, anything goes lol. So I don't get to understand the pros subtleties often.
On August 26 2019 23:20 Malongo wrote: And here I was thinking the Broodwar community were mostly middle age mature ~30 males.
I am old. True.
But since I started playing this game, it has been a loop of people telling me it's dead and dying. When x race loses the game is broken ....ad naseem for 19 years.
At some point mockery is the only option.
Sc2 is what happens when these people are given their way. The community has a cancerous legion of gamers who cry about everything.
Even champions are 'discredited' by "o.p, nerf, buff".
Even the top players cry from the biggest stages. It is ridiculous and very cringey.
Also, the clickbait title of this thread played some part.
Did Action win a single 9734 v Rain or Snow? The answer is ...... no. It is a full court press into a macro game nothing more.
+1 sair into zealot reaver or zealot dt + templar is brutal. And without a billion sunkens toss will often just flat out break it.
EPT
