On August 30 2019 19:23 LaStScan wrote: i didn't read all of the comments, but i see dramas. 3hatch hydra is not broken at all. I don't care what rank, mmr you guys are, but if you wanna beat 3 hatch hydra(renamed 973) then just go nexus first or forge expo.
protoss players have been doing 1 gate expo every game and that's what 3hatch hydra looks so strong. Here's the basic knowledge i gathered from HyuK's comment on Overwatch Rain vs Sacsri. He said that zerg should not ever go for hydra first vs 12 nexus. it's basically a throwing a game because of protoss's economy+speed of tech.
but that opens 9p to just straight kill you, if protoss opens nexus 1st is basically gambling that zerg is going overpool.
True. However zerg rarely does 9pool vs protoss. If it was a bo1, any long game series, 99.99% zerg goes overlord first in the first game to see what protoss does.
It has something to do with mind games. Zerg always would like to observe and analyze first by playing standard opening(overlord first = 1) overpool 2) 12 hatchery). Protoss should take the advantage of this and go for nexus first as a gamble and it will most likely to success from the build order battle.
It's like this. We all know race advantage order is z>p>t>z. Disadvantage side opponent usually takes expo first would always give a high chance to make a balance game or even flip the table around. Zvt = 12hatchery Tvp = rax expo Pvz = 12nexus
This kind of build order fight will make the game change so much. Of course you can play standard like Tvp = factory expo Pvz = gate expo, forge expo Zvt = 9pool no gas expo
But it won't be as poweful as the earlier build order ive mentioned. This is why you can't go for hydra den first vs 12 nexus (even forge expo depending on how well protoss manage).
Like asl match flash vs rain Flash didnt want to give a single chance and choose rax expo 2 games in a row. We all know flash is an insane god terran, but adding a build order advantage is equal to "im gonna go for straight 3-0".
On August 30 2019 19:23 LaStScan wrote: i didn't read all of the comments, but i see dramas. 3hatch hydra is not broken at all. I don't care what rank, mmr you guys are, but if you wanna beat 3 hatch hydra(renamed 973) then just go nexus first or forge expo.
protoss players have been doing 1 gate expo every game and that's what 3hatch hydra looks so strong. Here's the basic knowledge i gathered from HyuK's comment on Overwatch Rain vs Sacsri. He said that zerg should not ever go for hydra first vs 12 nexus. it's basically a throwing a game because of protoss's economy+speed of tech.
but that opens 9p to just straight kill you, if protoss opens nexus 1st is basically gambling that zerg is going overpool.
True. However zerg rarely does 9pool vs protoss. If it was a bo1, any long game series, 99.99% zerg goes overlord first in the first game to see what protoss does.
It has something to do with mind games. Zerg always would like to observe and analyze first by playing standard opening(overlord first = 1) overpool 2) 12 hatchery). Protoss should take the advantage of this and go for nexus first as a gamble and it will most likely to success from the build order battle.
It's like this. We all know race advantage order is z>p>t>z. Disadvantage side opponent usually takes expo first would always give a high chance to make a balance game or even flip the table around. Zvt = 12hatchery Tvp = rax expo Pvz = 12nexus
This kind of build order fight will make the game change so much. Of course you can play standard like Tvp = factory expo Pvz = gate expo, forge expo Zvt = 9pool no gas expo
But it won't be as poweful as the earlier build order ive mentioned. This is why you can't go for hydra den first vs 12 nexus (even forge expo depending on how well protoss manage).
Like asl match flash vs rain Flash didnt want to give a single chance and choose rax expo 2 games in a row. We all know flash is an insane god terran, but adding a build order advantage is equal to "im gonna go for straight 3-0".
done 12 nexus last 6 pvz i played
4 games vs overpool , 3 of them went all in zerglings, the other went 3 hatch lurker into drops... 1game vs 12 hatch, he played 3h spire > 6 h hidra. 1 game vs 9p, i died instantly.
basically no 973 / 9734 vs 12nexus... which is kinda amazing cause last few days i was doing 11 forge , 13 nexus and almost all zergs went 3h hydra builds. LUL
with overpool if you scout 12 nex early with the first ol like on fs you can instantly pull some drones and do a drone+ling timing attack with the first set of ling, i copied it from zelot and its almost basically guaranteed to do dmg
there is no 12 nex pvz build. AFAIK it's 11 nexus 11 forge and you do it on maps where you can block with 1 probe (FS top right/bot left) and can even defend 9p sometimes. Also, yes that drone pull + ling timing works with overpool. I've seen that a lot when zerg scouts toss first with ovi, but they have to hide ovi and pull drones in such a way that they arent scouted. I saw Soulkey do it Bot right vs bot left on FS by sending drones thru 6 o'clock. Reason you do this is because toss can block the wall fully with a 2nd forge. making it completely tight.
why zergs don't 3hh vs 11 nex? it's simple: citadel is way faster than normal.
On August 28 2019 15:47 A.Alm wrote: The build that somehow "Broke ZvP" yet managed to not win many games in the latest ASL.
Rain > Sascri Rain > Action Snow > Action
I'm surprised these clickbait threads don't get deleted tbh.
Lol then dont post on it and dont watch it. You are welcome to fuck off. Its literally titled "new sagi 973build? Flash's thought on it" on flashes youtube channel and flash talks about it being currently broken while drawing parallels to the community outburst in korean scene when 111 first came out
Well its obvious you are an idiot and havent watched a single minute if you posted anyway since flash addresses the "brokeness" of build from minute 1. You bringing up those stats when 9734 build only came out recently ( right before ro8) is meaningless as well as action having appendicitis surgery days before his game makes it clear that you are retarded if you said this despite watching the video and knowing context behind this video and situation.
Might want to look at general community trends, spon matches and streamer& community outlook before putting retarded drivel like "bbut look at the recent asl results!!!" when even that point was covered during flash's explanation (ability to blind counter strat).
I'm surprised you can even post given your mental condition tbh
User was temp banned for this post.
I have a problem with jinjin5000 beeing banned for that post, I think I'm entirely against the logic behind this: So, A.Alm gets to be an idiot and ask for a post to be removed (?) and shits in one stupid sentence on the work of another who took minutes or hours to be produced? And jinjin5000 can't spit some mean spirited words to him, because he gets banned and for everyone here to see it on top of that? I swear theres so much bullshit behind morale and political correctiveness its ridiculous, people need to wake up. Think about it, one guy produces 0 and does shit and gets to be cleverly and openly disrespectful because he didn't pronounced any insult. Forget about bad or good and think about outcome, a disrespecful ranter vs a guy who brings ideas, produces stuff, invites people to participate in something In my opinion this thread is gold, I get so hyped when I get to see subs videos of pro's talking about meta and strategies.On the other hand I think useless stupid posts writted in auto-mode could very well be erased since they contribute 0 and are a waste of time and space
jinjin5000 ty for your posts, great job on your translations and on your YouTube channel, wich is awesome. Keep the good work, don't listen to the miserable men.
Also it's kind of sad comment sections like this one have almost the same amount of dumb back and forth trash talk than thoughtful comments, but I have a theory, many people and actually dumb and lazy to think and don't have much to say about anything in the first place,
On August 28 2019 15:47 A.Alm wrote: The build that somehow "Broke ZvP" yet managed to not win many games in the latest ASL.
Rain > Sascri Rain > Action Snow > Action
I'm surprised these clickbait threads don't get deleted tbh.
Lol then dont post on it and dont watch it. You are welcome to fuck off. Its literally titled "new sagi 973build? Flash's thought on it" on flashes youtube channel and flash talks about it being currently broken while drawing parallels to the community outburst in korean scene when 111 first came out
Well its obvious you are an idiot and havent watched a single minute if you posted anyway since flash addresses the "brokeness" of build from minute 1. You bringing up those stats when 9734 build only came out recently ( right before ro8) is meaningless as well as action having appendicitis surgery days before his game makes it clear that you are retarded if you said this despite watching the video and knowing context behind this video and situation.
Might want to look at general community trends, spon matches and streamer& community outlook before putting retarded drivel like "bbut look at the recent asl results!!!" when even that point was covered during flash's explanation (ability to blind counter strat).
I'm surprised you can even post given your mental condition tbh
User was temp banned for this post.
I have a problem with jinjin5000 beeing banned for that post, I think I'm entirely against the logic behind this: So, A.Alm gets to be an idiot and ask for a post to be removed (?) and shits in one stupid sentence on the work of another who took minutes or hours to be produced? And jinjin5000 can't spit some mean spirited words to him, because he gets banned and for everyone here to see it on top of that? I swear theres so much bullshit behind morale and political correctiveness its ridiculous, people need to wake up. Think about it, one guy produces 0 and does shit and gets to be cleverly and openly disrespectful because he didn't pronounced any insult. Forget about bad or good and think about outcome, a disrespecful ranter vs a guy who brings ideas, produces stuff, invites people to participate in something In my opinion this thread is gold, I get so hyped when I get to see subs videos of pro's talking about meta and strategies.On the other hand I think useless stupid posts writted in auto-mode could very well be erased since they contribute 0 and are a waste of time and space
jinjin5000 ty for your posts, great job on your translations and on your YouTube channel, wich is awesome. Keep the good work, don't listen to the miserable men.
You will get told (possibly) to make this post in "Website Feedback" on the left-hand sidebar, but while we're here, I completely agree with you. Contributors should be afforded some breathing room, people who do very little but complain about others' contributions should be handled as "judiciously" as possible. I respect the fact that TeamLiquid has standards and that we may not be as acquainted with any individual user's history (usually ) and I certainly don't believe that any user should be "above the law," but let's be real - this community has contributors, detractors, parasites, liars, cheats, generous gosus, translators, moderators, trolls, anonymous users, etc. It is foolish to assume that they should all be treated equally IMO.
Regarding 9734 figuring out a way to effectively remove forge from wall may be a start as well as more gate heavy build orders maybe? perhaps also some worked out DA timing to defend against later muta switch?
I also wasn't aware that 12 nex wroked so well against this, so maybe increasing the 12 nex ratio and combine that with the other stuff I said earlier asuming they could be useful at all could somehow end up in something advantageus?
On August 28 2019 15:47 A.Alm wrote: The build that somehow "Broke ZvP" yet managed to not win many games in the latest ASL.
Rain > Sascri Rain > Action Snow > Action
I'm surprised these clickbait threads don't get deleted tbh.
Lol then dont post on it and dont watch it. You are welcome to fuck off. Its literally titled "new sagi 973build? Flash's thought on it" on flashes youtube channel and flash talks about it being currently broken while drawing parallels to the community outburst in korean scene when 111 first came out
Well its obvious you are an idiot and havent watched a single minute if you posted anyway since flash addresses the "brokeness" of build from minute 1. You bringing up those stats when 9734 build only came out recently ( right before ro8) is meaningless as well as action having appendicitis surgery days before his game makes it clear that you are retarded if you said this despite watching the video and knowing context behind this video and situation.
Might want to look at general community trends, spon matches and streamer& community outlook before putting retarded drivel like "bbut look at the recent asl results!!!" when even that point was covered during flash's explanation (ability to blind counter strat).
I'm surprised you can even post given your mental condition tbh
User was temp banned for this post.
I have a problem with jinjin5000 beeing banned for that post, I think I'm entirely against the logic behind this: So, A.Alm gets to be an idiot and ask for a post to be removed (?) and shits in one stupid sentence on the work of another who took minutes or hours to be produced? And jinjin5000 can't spit some mean spirited words to him, because he gets banned and for everyone here to see it on top of that? I swear theres so much bullshit behind morale and political correctiveness its ridiculous, people need to wake up. Think about it, one guy produces 0 and does shit and gets to be cleverly and openly disrespectful because he didn't pronounced any insult. Forget about bad or good and think about outcome, a disrespecful ranter vs a guy who brings ideas, produces stuff, invites people to participate in something In my opinion this thread is gold, I get so hyped when I get to see subs videos of pro's talking about meta and strategies.On the other hand I think useless stupid posts writted in auto-mode could very well be erased since they contribute 0 and are a waste of time and space
jinjin5000 ty for your posts, great job on your translations and on your YouTube channel, wich is awesome. Keep the good work, don't listen to the miserable men.
You will get told (possibly) to make this post in "Website Feedback" on the left-hand sidebar, but while we're here, I completely agree with you. Contributors should be afforded some breathing room, people who do very little but complain about others' contributions should be handled as "judiciously" as possible. I respect the fact that TeamLiquid has standards and that we may not be as acquainted with any individual user's history (usually ) and I certainly don't believe that any user should be "above the law," but let's be real - this community has contributors, detractors, parasites, liars, cheats, generous gosus, translators, moderators, trolls, anonymous users, etc. It is foolish to assume that they should all be treated equally IMO.
-- a troll in rehab
Yes, for me different events, things and people have different value, it's only natural, obvius and inevitable, moral and standars many times, try to fight that idea and end up beeing bullshit and existing only for scumsbags to be clever and sneaky around them, like in this case. I dont value all the people the same in every scenario, that would be a blatant lie and some sort of intellectual cancer. For example, the opinion of a korean speaker who is very gosu at bw and is in direct contact with what we call the pro scene does not worth the same than the opinion who joins TL for the first time and never heard about the game. Does that make sense to anyone else? I bet it does.
imo this forum needs some kind of upvote/thanks system for posts, tons of other online forums have those, i swear this is the only one without it. (no downvotes tho)
On September 02 2019 15:25 ggsimida wrote: imo this forum needs some kind of upvote/thanks system for posts, tons of other online forums have those, i swear this is the only one without it. (no downvotes tho)
TL Plus.
Realistically though, I like and respect the fact that popularity is not a factor in a post's position in a thread, nor are threads pushed up or down by public opinion.
On September 02 2019 15:25 ggsimida wrote: imo this forum needs some kind of upvote/thanks system for posts, tons of other online forums have those, i swear this is the only one without it. (no downvotes tho)
TL Plus.
Realistically though, I like and respect the fact that popularity is not a factor in a post's position in a thread, nor are threads pushed up or down by public opinion.
a upvote/thank system generally works well for filtering which posts are actually useful/informative. i wouldn't have to waste time seeing those a alm posts for example. what would be better is that regular posters get low voting power while people with TL plus or gosu players w/e have higher, so everyone has a chance to vote but experience/expertise backing wins out. also i did emphasise no downvotes, since downvoting is the typical method for vote brigading, not upvote.
On September 02 2019 15:25 ggsimida wrote: imo this forum needs some kind of upvote/thanks system for posts, tons of other online forums have those, i swear this is the only one without it. (no downvotes tho)
TL Plus.
Realistically though, I like and respect the fact that popularity is not a factor in a post's position in a thread, nor are threads pushed up or down by public opinion.
a upvote/thank system generally works well for filtering which posts are actually useful/informative. i wouldn't have to waste time seeing those a alm posts for example. what would be better is that regular posters get low voting power while people with TL plus or gosu players w/e have higher, so everyone has a chance to vote but experience/expertise backing wins out. also i did emphasise no downvotes, since downvoting is the typical method for vote brigading, not upvote.
Upvoting and sorting by upvotes still creates echo chambers, though. It can push trite yet popular ideas to the top, thus creating a stale forum meta.
Flash says in the video that protoss will find a way to deal with this, and if not, the maps will change to balance this. 70% of video is him talking about 111 build / f.e 5rax and how zergs eventually found a counter to it (because he is a Terran player, not a protoss player), and also that we shouldn't worry about this breaking the match up.
What groundbreaking information did Flash add that deserves a thread with the title "build that broke PvZ"? If this build has broken the matchup (as you say, JinJin), it would be nice to back it up with some data (as i did with ASL). If you don't like my data, counter it with better data.
On September 02 2019 15:25 ggsimida wrote: imo this forum needs some kind of upvote/thanks system for posts, tons of other online forums have those, i swear this is the only one without it. (no downvotes tho)
TL Plus.
Realistically though, I like and respect the fact that popularity is not a factor in a post's position in a thread, nor are threads pushed up or down by public opinion.
a upvote/thank system generally works well for filtering which posts are actually useful/informative. i wouldn't have to waste time seeing those a alm posts for example. what would be better is that regular posters get low voting power while people with TL plus or gosu players w/e have higher, so everyone has a chance to vote but experience/expertise backing wins out. also i did emphasise no downvotes, since downvoting is the typical method for vote brigading, not upvote.
Upvoting and sorting by upvotes still creates echo chambers, though. It can push trite yet popular ideas to the top, thus creating a stale forum meta.
in the first place a forum centred around a particular topic/niche tend to be less receptive to outside views anyway. btw that echo chamber that would have dazed posts at the bottom and your memey dazed stale thesis at the top, which is what everyone wanted...
a meritocratic voting system like i mention (which you dont see in reddit which is what people think of echo chambers)would curb nonsensical posts at the minimum.
On September 02 2019 15:25 ggsimida wrote: imo this forum needs some kind of upvote/thanks system for posts, tons of other online forums have those, i swear this is the only one without it. (no downvotes tho)
TL Plus.
Realistically though, I like and respect the fact that popularity is not a factor in a post's position in a thread, nor are threads pushed up or down by public opinion.
a upvote/thank system generally works well for filtering which posts are actually useful/informative. i wouldn't have to waste time seeing those a alm posts for example. what would be better is that regular posters get low voting power while people with TL plus or gosu players w/e have higher, so everyone has a chance to vote but experience/expertise backing wins out. also i did emphasise no downvotes, since downvoting is the typical method for vote brigading, not upvote.
Upvoting and sorting by upvotes still creates echo chambers, though. It can push trite yet popular ideas to the top, thus creating a stale forum meta.
The only really effective system is to have a person with similar tastes and more time than you, or a group of like minded contributors to aggregate information that you will likely be interested in. In either case, because there won't be 100% overlap, your horizons will be broadened slightly, just enough to still be comfortable, but not so much that your consuming landfills worth of trash down your gullet.
Luckily this is subforum with less than 10 posts per day, you don't really need the aggregate. Like many people do when they see my username, you can simply skim over / skip what you don't like unless you are a hopeless masochist. No further optimization needed. The desire to punish people (through down voting into obscurity) for making a post you didn't like or to make sure a bad opinion doesn't spread is a personal problem you'll have to work through with your teddy bears.
EPT
) and I certainly don't believe that any user should be "above the law," but let's be real - this community has contributors, detractors, parasites, liars, cheats, generous gosus, translators, moderators, trolls, anonymous users, etc. It is foolish to assume that they should all be treated equally IMO.
