On August 26 2019 23:09 AntiHack wrote: Meanwhile the Koreans doesn't give a f of your complaints because they live sc1 as a sport instead of a random Barbie videogame. Nobody expected big meta changes and nobody was looking for it. Big or small meta changes are all welcome but not required at all and with a decent paradigm shift you might grasp how serene and happy is a gamer life without cataclysmic expectations on his favorite sport.
This interesting reddit post summarises the concept pretty well and it applies to real life sport too where people live their life happy to see champions mastering their skill and getting excited of tiny meta changes in sports that are extremely old and figured out.
Learn to be happy with the sport you like or just move to another sport or quit following sports altogether if you don't have a competitive mindset that brings you joy with simple things like mastering a single build/meta for years.
I wish lot of happiness and serenity to all of you
Thank you for this post. This pretty much sums it up.
"Soccer is getting stale. Same round ball, same 22 players running around. always playing the same positions, etc. I think soccer would be better with a square ball, 30 players, and 2 goalies per team. Discuss."
Sounds like the dev goal is ultimately not to achieve balance but to induce changes in meta to bait players to return periodically to play/watch the game...
On August 26 2019 23:20 Malongo wrote: And here I was thinking the Broodwar community were mostly middle age mature ~30 males.
I am old. True.
But since I started playing this game, it has been a loop of people telling me it's dead and dying. When x race loses the game is broken ....ad naseem for 19 years.
At some point mockery is the only option.
Sc2 is what happens when these people are given their way. The community has a cancerous legion of gamers who cry about everything.
Even champions are 'discredited' by "o.p, nerf, buff".
Even the top players cry from the biggest stages. It is ridiculous and very cringey.
Also, the clickbait title of this thread played some part.
Did Action win a single 9734 v Rain or Snow? The answer is ...... no. It is a full court press into a macro game nothing more.
+1 sair into zealot reaver or zealot dt + templar is brutal. And without a billion sunkens toss will often just flat out break it.
Agreed entirely. There’s a big barrier to entry to us oldies going back to Brood War but it’s nearly 2 decades of refinement and knowledge that has to be overcome, that’s all
SC2 just has a cancerous element to its playerbase and community, balance whine constantly and it’s eventually indulged. Terrans choose to play with the race that is hardest mechanically, but also benefits most from mechanics and complain constantly that it’s hard.
Just fucking annoying really. I’m a mechanical robot dumbass of a player who plays P and T with vT and vP being my best matchups. Borderline a decade of whine at me on ladder, or reading ‘Protossed’ any time a Protoss wins even though they made every correct decision in a game, god.
Maybe it’s just dumb luck that more wasn’t patched this year, but Zergs managed to figure out how to deal with Protoss and their variants of Immortal/Robo builds entirely without intervention before change came in. Prior to that Protoss rediscovered these builds when the race’s lategame got nerfed, which forced their hand but these builds always theoretically existed.
Patches in RTS should be used to improve balance, and optionally to design additional gameplay. Changing up units to encourage different meta is generally signals the problem that 1: each singular meta is insufficiently "fun" 2: branching strategies are too unviable for some reason
BeastyQT I believe mentioned this: it's flawed to design races specifically so they are strong/weak in a certain phase of the game, because it homogenizes strategies (Terran/Protoss, regardless of their style: why would I want to go late game? Zerg: I don't know but I guess I'll go late game cause zerg late game is stronger). Both races should have differing strengths and weaknesses in every phase.
On August 27 2019 10:53 Chronopolis wrote: Patches in RTS should be used to improve balance, and optionally to design additional gameplay. Changing up units to encourage different meta is generally signals the problem that 1: each singular meta is insufficiently "fun" 2: branching strategies are too unviable for some reason
BeastyQT I believe mentioned this: it's flawed to design races specifically so they are strong/weak in a certain phase of the game, because it homogenizes strategies (Terran/Protoss, regardless of their style: why would I want to go late game? Zerg: I don't know but I guess I'll go late game cause zerg late game is stronger). Both races should have differing strengths and weaknesses in every phase.
I don't wanna start a sc1 vs sc2 war but I believe you're completely wrong. You should look what the team is actually doing instead of what is supposed to be doing in a perfect world.
Do you think the balance team is overreacting with balance patches following the popular mood? Maybe on purpose?
Even with a perfect meta and balance, how long do you think the meta is gonna stay dynamic in such an automated rts?
On August 26 2019 23:09 AntiHack wrote: Meanwhile the Koreans doesn't give a f of your complaints because they live sc1 as a sport instead of a random Barbie videogame. Nobody expected big meta changes and nobody was looking for it. Big or small meta changes are all welcome but not required at all and with a decent paradigm shift you might grasp how serene and happy is a gamer life without cataclysmic expectations on his favorite sport.
This interesting reddit post summarises the concept pretty well and it applies to real life sport too where people live their life happy to see champions mastering their skill and getting excited of tiny meta changes in sports that are extremely old and figured out.
Learn to be happy with the sport you like or just move to another sport or quit following sports altogether if you don't have a competitive mindset that brings you joy with simple things like mastering a single build/meta for years.
I wish lot of happiness and serenity to all of you
Thank you for this post. This pretty much sums it up.
"Soccer is getting stale. Same round ball, same 22 players running around. always playing the same positions, etc. I think soccer would be better with a square ball, 30 players, and 2 goalies per team. Discuss."
Sounds like the dev goal is ultimately not to achieve balance but to induce changes in meta to bait players to return periodically to play/watch the game...
Thank you and what you're saying is quite true, changing the game resets the casuals frustration and brings part of them back, but in the end of the day how reliable are casuals to keep alive a game that is supposed to be competitive? I think we already know the answer
If Flash is on the opinion that people will come up with a counter to that build, I would be wise to trust him. He seems to know what he's talking about when it is about BW. As for the meta - changers - please just play another game and be done already, let BW die already. Is not this your chant? I've heard that it is dying since SC2 came around yet it is somehow miraculously here and the player base is still strong. This game is obviously not changing. Some new build come up, some new maps and that is about it. The tools stay the same, the players have to work out the ways to deal with the challenges, not to put trust in developers who have no idea how to play the game at pro-gamer level. I for one do not want balance changes. I just want to see the best gameplay with the current tools.
Wc3 is a game, that had a long period without patching. Blizzard recently started to "Spice Up" balance, first by fixing bugs and then... Many pros (Lawliet, Infi, Lyn etc) have opinion, that army control plays smaller and smaller role after each patch, hard counters are getting out of hand and game is not fun anymore. And this was only by tweaking numbers. Now they are changing units and abilities radically (lol necromancer orb of fire). That kind of meddling would destroy bw for sure.
Jealous and his loyal acolytes already ganged up on him by attacking his character in an attempt to discredit his points. He has been banned for weeks on this forum. Yet he has not been forgotten and people still circlejerk about how they are right and every other game sucks. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Protosses will probably start using 3 gate speedzel openings (without +1) when they see/expect 973. The 973 is centered around stopping the Protoss +1 ground upgrade. The best work around is to go for openings that don't incorporate +1 ground.
Protoss uses the speedzel pressure to make up for the lack of Corsair scouting and transition based on what they see.
The best thing going on at my level is .... protoss are going 2gate and 1 gate in main.
Nothing could be better for my mmr. This is fantastic. They go sair, they can't match 3 hat 2 base muta scourge or hydra, they go templar, they can't defend them v muta. They go archon, they can't hang with hydra-lurker. They go dt, not enough gas for more then 3-4 temps and robo will be soooo late that a lurker contain is a valid opener.
Never thought a meta could bring back builds I can actually beat. Thanks to every zerg playing this way. 3 hat lair into ling-lurk or muta scourge is back baby.
Go zerg!
(Note: at least dazed was a real person and not some desert wizard)
On August 27 2019 00:16 AntiHack wrote: Here we have another interesting documentary about the rise and fall of Heroes of the Storm that brings some light on how automation and simplicity can hurt an esport competitive scene.
With the premise that mobas are structurally "made" for constant updates, much much more than rts, it's easy to figure out the concept of how automation and simplification can lead to a stale in the competitive scene meta. That concept doesn't contradict my previous point but complement it with the fact that hard videogames or sports can still offer never-ending changes in the meta even if exponentially smaller with the passage of time.
it's not a secret that Blizzard have turned more and more casual friendly over the years and lost his way of seeking a true balance between the hardcore and the casual community, (I mean, getting rid of that strong RPG feeling and level of complexity of items in a moba really says a lot about modern Blizzard mindset).
We know now that the modern Blizzard formula have failed and in such a huge and volatile gaming industry the casuals are always moving to the next trendy game which lead to an infinite running over the carrot, not only for casuals but for the industry as a whole.
In our time a gaming company is forced to take risky decisions, either in the casual way or in the competitive way but trying to make everybody happy can result in the end of a company.
Heroes of the Storm didn't die because of its mechanics. It was actually the second biggest section at BlizzCon 2018, and the room was packed so full for the finals that people were standing all around the edges of the stage. HotS died because Blizzard pumped ~$10M into it for 2018 including player salaries and broadcasting costs and then pulled the plug suddenly without warning (then added the worst balance patch of all time, but that's a whole other rabbit hole).
On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote: Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him.
This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this.
Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds.
Man, if you miss fungal and broodlord infestor, go back to SC2, this was one of the most disgusting comments I've read in awhile...are you drunk or something?
The Meta will continue to evolve, 1base sair reaver isn't fresh, it's minimal multitasking for a newb to try and have fun, this is an RTS not a MOBA. You have to multitask, I think Protoss will most likely start skipping stargate and just going Forge FE -> 4gate with dark archon / archon / zealot legs in order to combat this build, in my experience opening Forge FE into 4-5 gate Zealot legs and skipping stargate absolutely crushes this build, of course it is somewhat blind but that is what the defensive cannons and Archon are for.
Lmfaooooo
On August 28 2019 01:48 404AlphaSquad wrote: Jealous and his loyal acolytes already ganged up on him by attacking his character in an attempt to discredit his points. He has been banned for weeks on this forum. Yet he has not been forgotten and people still circlejerk about how they are right and every other game sucks. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
I work solo and I only expose the truth.
EDIT: Sometimes a post facto collab with NinaZerg.
On August 27 2019 10:53 Chronopolis wrote: Patches in RTS should be used to improve balance, and optionally to design additional gameplay. Changing up units to encourage different meta is generally signals the problem that 1: each singular meta is insufficiently "fun" 2: branching strategies are too unviable for some reason
BeastyQT I believe mentioned this: it's flawed to design races specifically so they are strong/weak in a certain phase of the game, because it homogenizes strategies (Terran/Protoss, regardless of their style: why would I want to go late game? Zerg: I don't know but I guess I'll go late game cause zerg late game is stronger). Both races should have differing strengths and weaknesses in every phase.
This sums it up well enough. No one adressed this part, everyone is bitching about meta there and meta here, "you whine about meta, you are not a real man". I think people lack critical thinking skills to understand this.
Blizzard today is not the blizzard that luck boxed their way into the best rts of all time.
Heres something nobody brings up.
Every serious patch ruins the games played before it's history.
In sc2, if you go backwards at all, they are playing a different game, to the point of making somewhat recent history irrelevant.
Not to mention when they made bw, they had no idea how games would go.
Now they attempt to design or negate strategies by patch.
Creates a sterile hyper meta even faster.
Blizzard should not be encouraged to patch or even think about it. They listen to the dumbest loudest players or worse pro gamers with a vested interest in getting o.p features.
It is a road that could truly threaten the tentative community that has survived their past transgressions.
On August 28 2019 00:08 whaski wrote: Wc3 is a game, that had a long period without patching. Blizzard recently started to "Spice Up" balance, first by fixing bugs and then... Many pros (Lawliet, Infi, Lyn etc) have opinion, that army control plays smaller and smaller role after each patch, hard counters are getting out of hand and game is not fun anymore. And this was only by tweaking numbers. Now they are changing units and abilities radically (lol necromancer orb of fire). That kind of meddling would destroy bw for sure.
On August 28 2019 15:47 A.Alm wrote: The build that somehow "Broke ZvP" yet managed to not win many games in the latest ASL.
Rain > Sascri Rain > Action Snow > Action
I'm surprised these clickbait threads don't get deleted tbh.
Lol then dont post on it and dont watch it. You are welcome to fuck off. Its literally titled "new sagi 973build? Flash's thought on it" on flashes youtube channel and flash talks about it being currently broken while drawing parallels to the community outburst in korean scene when 111 first came out
Well its obvious you are an idiot and havent watched a single minute if you posted anyway since flash addresses the "brokeness" of build from minute 1. You bringing up those stats when 9734 build only came out recently ( right before ro8) is meaningless as well as action having appendicitis surgery days before his game makes it clear that you are retarded if you said this despite watching the video and knowing context behind this video and situation.
Might want to look at general community trends, spon matches and streamer& community outlook before putting retarded drivel like "bbut look at the recent asl results!!!" when even that point was covered during flash's explanation (ability to blind counter strat).
I'm surprised you can even post given your mental condition tbh
EPT
