FlaSh's Thought on New 973 That Broke ZvP

On August 25 2019 03:59 9-BiT wrote:
die dazed

On August 25 2019 04:36 Qikz wrote:
As I've been arguing since something like 2015 we need to keep FS and CB out of tournaments to keep improving on what we have.

<3 map evolution

On August 25 2019 06:52 sntct wrote:
What is the build order for the 973 build? I'm not familiar with it.

On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote:
Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him.

This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this.

Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds.

On August 25 2019 07:21 Chronopolis wrote:

BW is based on slight build adjustments, and large amount of micro/positional depth associated with any one unit composition. I mean in fantasy land we could have the same depth but more viable comps, but thats not how the game turned out. Also if you are good enough you can make any kind of off-meta build work.

On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote:
Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him.

This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this.

Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds.

On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote:
Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him.

This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this.

Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds.

On August 25 2019 11:09 Wonk wrote:

It's like he's in the room, A+

On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote:
Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him.

This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this.

Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds.

On August 26 2019 01:18 Terrorbladder wrote:
who's Dazed and what did he do/say

On August 26 2019 11:09 SCC-Faust wrote:
Is this another irony post above me? I can't tell.

On August 26 2019 16:55 ninazerg wrote:
Dazed spoke out against the Cult of Brood War, and their holy build-orders that they treasure like Sméagol with the Ring. The Church of Metagaming casts out heretics, because they have the audacity to suggest a game like Brood War should ever change. All I see is the same people posting over and over, affirming to each other how the game is so perfect while the player numbers dwindle down to nothing as it refuses to adapt to change.

There is no innovation, no player-made changes, the same maps for decade. This is why my 19 real-life friends who all played Brood War with vivid enthusiasm all quit, and refuse to return. It's the same build orders every game ad nauseum forever with no opportunity for creativity or deviation. When I made my balance suggestions, the church cried "Burn the witch!" like the entranced sheep they are.

On August 26 2019 11:19 AttackZerg wrote:


I think that one is real.

Dazed wasn't a bad guy. I had nothing against him.

But the cringe inducing arguments like the one above are pretty hard to be around.

At the top levels in bw, sc2 or chess there is less variation because optimal play destroys certain things. At the tops of any strategy game, if the game is worth playing, there are 'realities' that you can't wish yourself out of.

For everyone who is not an S class gamer, there is an incredible amount of variety and the 'realities' are less true, the lower the skill threshhold. E.G the poster above says "Things are forced you can't fight lurker/ling v marines without defiler"

Well, I have an account sitting at 1860 mmr vs all koreans where I do nothing but fake 3 hat muta into 4 hat +1 carpace lurker/ling. Turns out, not everyone can control marines as good as pro gamers (who would have thought?) and builds that are sub-optimal gain strength due to novelty, audacity and the physical limitations of the players in dealing with them.

On August 26 2019 23:24 Muff2n wrote:
Thank you for the video, it was super interesting. I do struggle to gain insights into the meta / why things work and explanations like this make me wish I spoke Korean. And as a lot of posters above have mentioned, in games like mine, anything goes lol. So I don't get to understand the pros subtleties often.

On August 26 2019 23:20 Malongo wrote:
And here I was thinking the Broodwar community were mostly middle age mature ~30 males.

On August 26 2019 23:09 AntiHack wrote:
Meanwhile the Koreans doesn't give a f of your complaints because they live sc1 as a sport instead of a random Barbie videogame.
Nobody expected big meta changes and nobody was looking for it.
Big or small meta changes are all welcome but not required at all and with a decent paradigm shift you might grasp how serene and happy is a gamer life without cataclysmic expectations on his favorite sport.

This interesting reddit post summarises the concept pretty well and it applies to real life sport too where people live their life happy to see champions mastering their skill and getting excited of tiny meta changes in sports that are extremely old and figured out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/cv9yle/shaolin_vs_esport_one_of_the_top_comments_on_this/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Learn to be happy with the sport you like or just move to another sport or quit following sports altogether if you don't have a competitive mindset that brings you joy with simple things like mastering a single build/meta for years.

I wish lot of happiness and serenity to all of you

On August 27 2019 05:28 AttackZerg wrote:


I am old. True.

But since I started playing this game, it has been a loop of people telling me it's dead and dying. When x race loses the game is broken ....ad naseem for 19 years.

At some point mockery is the only option.

Sc2 is what happens when these people are given their way. The community has a cancerous legion of gamers who cry about everything.

Even champions are 'discredited' by "o.p, nerf, buff".

Even the top players cry from the biggest stages. It is ridiculous and very cringey.

Also, the clickbait title of this thread played some part.

Did Action win a single 9734 v Rain or Snow?
The answer is ...... no. It is a full court press into a macro game nothing more.

+1 sair into zealot reaver or zealot dt + templar is brutal. And without a billion sunkens toss will often just flat out break it.

On August 27 2019 10:53 Chronopolis wrote:
Patches in RTS should be used to improve balance, and optionally to design additional gameplay. Changing up units to encourage different meta is generally signals the problem that 1: each singular meta is insufficiently "fun" 2: branching strategies are too unviable for some reason

BeastyQT I believe mentioned this: it's flawed to design races specifically so they are strong/weak in a certain phase of the game, because it homogenizes strategies (Terran/Protoss, regardless of their style: why would I want to go late game? Zerg: I don't know but I guess I'll go late game cause zerg late game is stronger). Both races should have differing strengths and weaknesses in every phase.

On August 27 2019 07:44 tankgirl wrote:


Thank you for this post. This pretty much sums it up.

"Soccer is getting stale. Same round ball, same 22 players running around. always playing the same positions, etc. I think soccer would be better with a square ball, 30 players, and 2 goalies per team. Discuss."

Sounds like the dev goal is ultimately not to achieve balance but to induce changes in meta to bait players to return periodically to play/watch the game...

On August 27 2019 00:16 AntiHack wrote:
Here we have another interesting documentary about the rise and fall of Heroes of the Storm that brings some light on how automation and simplicity can hurt an esport competitive scene.

https://youtu.be/Q1QQ7yVmARQ

With the premise that mobas are structurally "made" for constant updates, much much more than rts, it's easy to figure out the concept of how automation and simplification can lead to a stale in the competitive scene meta.
That concept doesn't contradict my previous point but complement it with the fact that hard videogames or sports can still offer never-ending changes in the meta even if exponentially smaller with the passage of time.

it's not a secret that Blizzard have turned more and more casual friendly over the years and lost his way of seeking a true balance between the hardcore and the casual community, (I mean, getting rid of that strong RPG feeling and level of complexity of items in a moba really says a lot about modern Blizzard mindset).

We know now that the modern Blizzard formula have failed and in such a huge and volatile gaming industry the casuals are always moving to the next trendy game which lead to an infinite running over the carrot, not only for casuals but for the industry as a whole.

In our time a gaming company is forced to take risky decisions, either in the casual way or in the competitive way but trying to make everybody happy can result in the end of a company.

On August 27 2019 10:53 Chronopolis wrote:
Patches in RTS should be used to improve balance, and optionally to design additional gameplay. Changing up units to encourage different meta is generally signals the problem that 1: each singular meta is insufficiently "fun" 2: branching strategies are too unviable for some reason

BeastyQT I believe mentioned this: it's flawed to design races specifically so they are strong/weak in a certain phase of the game, because it homogenizes strategies (Terran/Protoss, regardless of their style: why would I want to go late game? Zerg: I don't know but I guess I'll go late game cause zerg late game is stronger). Both races should have differing strengths and weaknesses in every phase.

On August 28 2019 00:08 whaski wrote:
Wc3 is a game, that had a long period without patching. Blizzard recently started to "Spice Up" balance, first by fixing bugs and then... Many pros (Lawliet, Infi, Lyn etc) have opinion, that army control plays smaller and smaller role after each patch, hard counters are getting out of hand and game is not fun anymore. And this was only by tweaking numbers. Now they are changing units and abilities radically (lol necromancer orb of fire). That kind of meddling would destroy bw for sure.

On August 28 2019 15:47 A.Alm wrote:
The build that somehow "Broke ZvP" yet managed to not win many games in the latest ASL.

Rain > Sascri
Rain > Action
Snow > Action

I'm surprised these clickbait threads don't get deleted tbh.

On August 28 2019 17:56 AttackZerg wrote:
Jinjin, I also criticized the titled. I also watched the video and others relating to this new approach.

Thank you for your hard work and for providing such high level content.

Sometimes I think we all forget how lucky we are to have community members like you.

Have a great day/night and may fortune rain coins into your accounts! Cheers.

On August 28 2019 18:00 jinjin5000 wrote:


Title sure, I'm translating the title loosely or in context most of time and Korean vids are pretty clickbaity, but him spewing out asl results while clearly not knowing about context behind this was the trigger part when this 9734 topic has been pretty big new issue recently in korea.

On August 28 2019 17:38 jinjin5000 wrote:


Lol then dont post on it and dont watch it. You are welcome to fuck off. Its literally titled "new sagi 973build? Flash's thought on it" on flashes youtube channel and flash talks about it being currently broken while drawing parallels to the community outburst in korean scene when 111 first came out

Well its obvious you are an idiot and havent watched a single minute if you posted anyway since flash addresses the "brokeness" of build from minute 1. You bringing up those stats when 9734 build only came out recently ( right before ro8) is meaningless as well as action having appendicitis surgery days before his game makes it clear that you are retarded if you said this despite watching the video and knowing context behind this video and situation.


Might want to look at general community trends, spon matches and streamer& community outlook before putting retarded drivel like "bbut look at the recent asl results!!!" when even that point was covered during flash's explanation (ability to blind counter strat).

I'm surprised you can even post given your mental condition tbh

On August 29 2019 08:55 XenOsky wrote:


warned¿¿¿¿ this man should be given a medal.

On August 29 2019 09:54 tankgirl wrote:
I would be interested to poll all the Korean SCBW Pro Gamers to ask what balance changes they would implement. I bet not a single one of them would genuinely like to see Blizzard start messing with the balance of the game. I for one hope that Blizzard never makes changes at all.

If this bothers you, feel free to pick up SCMDraft and make yourself a UMS map. Or play one of the 40,000 UMS maps already in existence?

On August 29 2019 20:21 Liquid`Drone wrote:
zealots were 80-80 and they were strengthened by being made 60/100

On August 29 2019 19:47 AttackZerg wrote:
Wombat - I would counter your argument about a game that wasn't "built with a competitive balance in mind" and say, that is precisely how we luck boxed our way here.

Corporate entities designing the play of an RTS has not yielded fair or balanced, ever.

But the team, originally behind our game was talented and wise. When they increased the cost of the spawning pool and increased build time, slightly weakened zealots (used to be 100/100 100/100) they did this as a result of very obvious early game imbalances. They were not designing a game that is perfectly fair.

(in the text above I incorrectly state that Zealots were weakened, when infact they were strengthed, Thx Eri)

I think the lack of balance is one of the virtues of broodwar. As a zerg, all of my heros have been kilt my terrans and drowned protoss players in rivers. As a player, I have 1 matchup slightly in my favor, another slightly out of my favor and one that is \null\. and in that glorious imbalance, we have our game.

Coming from Chess, it always made sense to me that sometimes I started off an underdog and sometimes an overdog.

Or I just lack the imagination for what a balanced game would look like. All sc2 did was reinforce my idea that there is nobody who is good enough at games, designing the games we play to make these choices and even worse the players who are good, are horrible arbiters of fairness. Imagine if Idra was giving a platform to spout his opinions on Protoss?

I can only imagine them doing worse then now.

This build has not negatively effected Protoss results anywhere except ladder. In competitive play, Zergs are doing even worse then before, not because of the build, but because of poor judgement and decisions directly following it.

I hope Effort gets out early and relearns all these Hydra-homies how zerg is supposed to look.... our super power is to predict any punch and negate it by tactic, trick or tech. We have not been the slaves of tempo based plays in this matchup and I hope this fade passes and we get to see Zergs play well again.

Save the imagination for ZvT my fellow swarm, ZvP is still our matchup. 6 hat lurker-ling/scourge into 10-11 hat lategame is still the best, strongest, most brutal shit you can do to a protoss. They are an evil people who danced with the powers of the X'el naga. Make Them Suffer.


Edit: Also wanted to add, balance would break the gameplay. Draws in a genre without the option for draws make no sense. Imbalance and imperfection stop every match-up from being as redundent as zvz and tvt .... PvP seems to have enough variety to make decent TV, Esp when Rain or Bisu are playing.

On August 30 2019 19:23 LaStScan wrote:
i didn't read all of the comments, but i see dramas. 3hatch hydra is not broken at all.
I don't care what rank, mmr you guys are, but if you wanna beat 3 hatch hydra(renamed 973) then just go nexus first or forge expo.

protoss players have been doing 1 gate expo every game and that's what 3hatch hydra looks so strong.
Here's the basic knowledge i gathered from HyuK's comment on Overwatch Rain vs Sacsri.
He said that zerg should not ever go for hydra first vs 12 nexus.
it's basically a throwing a game because of protoss's economy+speed of tech.

On August 30 2019 19:26 AttackZerg wrote:


Well .... you didn't read the comments and managed to say nothing that was useful or related to the topic.

So ... congratulations in a thread full of bad posts ... you are right near the top.


like .... the new "973" ... is the 9734 .. which is a 4 hat hydra ...

0/10 wouldn't recommend posting without reading.

Or watch the video .... LOL

On August 29 2019 21:28 Qikz wrote:


We have to go back in time and stop them, those maniacs!

In all seriousness Jinjins temp ban was certainly justified there because he flipped out like a crazy person and jealous was warned because he's been here years and I think he's probably been banned more than anyone else / had more accounts than anyone else, he should no better than be like that haha.

Hopefully jinjin comes back from his ban and keeps bringing us amazing content though, because it's been great so far <3

On August 30 2019 21:26 AttackZerg wrote:

There is an mmr for posting? If so, you guys are dreadful.

Been back 2 weeks and I'm 1850-1950 on any given day. I'm good with where I'm at.

And I've beaten several of the top 40 in bsl in 50 minute games.

Once again, being a good player doesn't mean you aren't a crap poster.

Are you a good player or just a crap poster? Oh wait I don't care.... Anything to say about the actual topic?

On August 30 2019 21:47 AttackZerg wrote:
He offered nothing relevant.
You posted nothing relevant.
I did send you a funny pm.
I regret responding to someone who has never made a good post before.

On August 30 2019 23:22 Jealous wrote:

You know who Scan is, right?

On August 30 2019 21:43 jinjin5000 wrote:


I had to he began bringing up asl stats

Maybe i should stop posting with korean translated titles. The video itself deals with perception of "broken" builds and how it goes through cycle and problem solving through innovation and adaption and at final course of through maps if no other choice

But dazed does get btfo

On August 30 2019 23:22 Jealous wrote:

You know who Scan is, right?

On August 31 2019 04:27 Models wrote:
I think after all this...permaban Telecom seems best

On August 31 2019 07:51 AttackZerg wrote:

I do not know who scan is.

I apologized for being a dick thou. Regardless of who he is, I should have been nicer.

Without knowing who he is I did pm him an apology.
Gosu or not, I was a dick.

Sorry again dude.

On August 31 2019 08:35 XenOsky wrote:


but that opens 9p to just straight kill you, if protoss opens nexus 1st is basically gambling that zerg is going overpool.

On August 28 2019 17:38 jinjin5000 wrote:


Lol then dont post on it and dont watch it. You are welcome to fuck off. Its literally titled "new sagi 973build? Flash's thought on it" on flashes youtube channel and flash talks about it being currently broken while drawing parallels to the community outburst in korean scene when 111 first came out

Well its obvious you are an idiot and havent watched a single minute if you posted anyway since flash addresses the "brokeness" of build from minute 1. You bringing up those stats when 9734 build only came out recently ( right before ro8) is meaningless as well as action having appendicitis surgery days before his game makes it clear that you are retarded if you said this despite watching the video and knowing context behind this video and situation.


Might want to look at general community trends, spon matches and streamer& community outlook before putting retarded drivel like "bbut look at the recent asl results!!!" when even that point was covered during flash's explanation (ability to blind counter strat).

I'm surprised you can even post given your mental condition tbh

User was temp banned for this post.

On September 02 2019 14:21 Jealous wrote:

You will get told (possibly) to make this post in "Website Feedback" on the left-hand sidebar, but while we're here, I completely agree with you. Contributors should be afforded some breathing room, people who do very little but complain about others' contributions should be handled as "judiciously" as possible. I respect the fact that TeamLiquid has standards and that we may not be as acquainted with any individual user's history (usually ) and I certainly don't believe that any user should be "above the law," but let's be real - this community has contributors, detractors, parasites, liars, cheats, generous gosus, translators, moderators, trolls, anonymous users, etc. It is foolish to assume that they should all be treated equally IMO.

-- a troll in rehab

On September 02 2019 15:32 Jealous wrote:

TL Plus.

Realistically though, I like and respect the fact that popularity is not a factor in a post's position in a thread, nor are threads pushed up or down by public opinion.

On September 02 2019 23:00 Jealous wrote:

Upvoting and sorting by upvotes still creates echo chambers, though. It can push trite yet popular ideas to the top, thus creating a stale forum meta.

On September 02 2019 23:00 Jealous wrote:

Upvoting and sorting by upvotes still creates echo chambers, though. It can push trite yet popular ideas to the top, thus creating a stale forum meta.

On September 03 2019 00:47 A.Alm wrote:
Flash says in the video that protoss will find a way to deal with this, and if not, the maps will change to balance this. 70% of video is him talking about 111 build / f.e 5rax and how zergs eventually found a counter to it (because he is a Terran player, not a protoss player), and also that we shouldn't worry about this breaking the match up.

What groundbreaking information did Flash add that deserves a thread with the title "build that broke PvZ"? If this build has broken the matchup (as you say, JinJin), it would be nice to back it up with some data (as i did with ASL). If you don't like my data, counter it with better data.

On September 03 2019 02:12 darktreb wrote:


He basically just translated the hyperbolic title used on the actual video itself. Maybe it was a bit misleading but it was a translation and this is a random thread on TL, not an article in a newspaper.

You've made a mountain out of a molehill and come off as a huge jerk along the way. Data is important but people who play the "counter my data with data" card without recognizing whether it's an appropriate context to do so just set back situations where data is legitimately important.

No one is claiming 9734 has broken anything beyond the hyperbolic title, which seems totally appropriate when someone took the time to translate a video and provide a great service to the community. Of course you then insulted the translator.

Here's some data for you too:
Number of (useful and interesting) translations by jinjin: many
Number of translations by you: 0

On September 03 2019 02:12 darktreb wrote:


He basically just translated the hyperbolic title used on the actual video itself. Maybe it was a bit misleading but it was a translation and this is a random thread on TL, not an article in a newspaper.

You've made a mountain out of a molehill and come off as a huge jerk along the way. Data is important but people who play the "counter my data with data" card without recognizing whether it's an appropriate context to do so just set back situations where data is legitimately important.

No one is claiming 9734 has broken anything beyond the hyperbolic title, which seems totally appropriate when someone took the time to translate a video and provide a great service to the community. Of course you then insulted the translator.

Here's some data for you:
Number of (useful and interesting) translations by jinjin: many
Number of translations by you: 0

On September 03 2019 03:58 A.Alm wrote:


I mentioned the ASL results. How are they irrelevant?

Here's some more data for you:
Number of (useful and interesting) translations by jinjin: many
Number of translations by you: 0

^ now that is irrelevant data

On September 03 2019 03:58 A.Alm wrote:


I mentioned the ASL results. How are they irrelevant?

Here's some more data for you:
Number of (useful and interesting) translations by jinjin: many
Number of translations by you: 0

^ now that is irrelevant data

On September 03 2019 05:29 intrigue wrote:
my suspicion is that this cycle can be broken if we can just eliminate step 2. it'd be nice if we collectively tried to do this. A.Alm i understand you are only working with what god gave you but please try your best

thank you everybody for your cooperation

On September 03 2019 05:29 intrigue wrote:
this always happens. it goes like this:

step 1: someone puts in a lot of time to give us really good content
step 2: someone comes along and make a horrifically stupid comment
step 3: everyone gets moderated and we stop getting content

my suspicion is that this cycle can be broken if we can just eliminate step 2. it'd be nice if we collectively tried to do this. A.Alm i understand you are only working with what god gave you but please try your best

thank you everybody for your cooperation

On September 03 2019 05:29 intrigue wrote:
this always happens. it goes like this:

step 1: someone puts in a lot of time to give us really good content
step 2: someone comes along and make a horrifically stupid comment
step 3: everyone gets moderated and we stop getting content

my suspicion is that this cycle can be broken if we can just eliminate step 2. it'd be nice if we collectively tried to do this. A.Alm i understand you are only working with what god gave you but please try your best

thank you everybody for your cooperation

On September 03 2019 05:29 intrigue wrote:
this always happens. it goes like this:

step 1: someone puts in a lot of time to give us really good content
step 2: someone comes along and make a horrifically stupid comment
step 3: everyone gets moderated and we stop getting content

my suspicion is that this cycle can be broken if we can just eliminate step 2. it'd be nice if we collectively tried to do this. A.Alm i understand you are only working with what god gave you but please try your best

thank you everybody for your cooperation