tl;dr: Dazed BTFO
FlaSh's Thought on New 973 That Broke ZvP
Forum Index > BW General |
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1265 Posts
tl;dr: Dazed BTFO | ||
9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1265 Posts
On August 25 2019 03:59 9-BiT wrote: die dazed its too late, hes banned | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
<3 map evolution | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1265 Posts
On August 25 2019 04:36 Qikz wrote: As I've been arguing since something like 2015 we need to keep FS and CB out of tournaments to keep improving on what we have. <3 map evolution He was talking about stragety coming out as counter and innovation. Map changes are last resort that may sometimes be needed. Not really what flash is saying | ||
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this. Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds. | ||
9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
On August 25 2019 04:36 Qikz wrote: As I've been arguing since something like 2015 we need to keep FS and CB out of tournaments to keep improving on what we have. <3 map evolution You realize that's the exact opposite of what he's saying right? | ||
sntct
100 Posts
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jinjin5000
Korea (South)1265 Posts
On August 25 2019 06:52 sntct wrote: What is the build order for the 973 build? I'm not familiar with it. https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/550622-zvp-zeros-new-9734-build | ||
XenOsky
Chile2142 Posts
To be honest, im not really worried as a protoss of the 9734 build, im much more concerned with the rax bunker expand > 3 vulture build... even tho i think that 1 gate > robo deals with it just fine, the problem comes when T decides to 2 fact after bunker or just take the free eco advantage and throw a cc armory academy... mb 16 nexus after gate is the answer... who knows. We got a lot of strong protoss in korea at the moment so i think protoss is gonna be ok after all. | ||
Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote: Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him. This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this. Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds. BW is based on slight build adjustments, and large amount of micro/positional depth associated with any one unit composition. I mean in fantasy land we could have the same depth but more viable comps, but thats not how the game turned out. Also if you are good enough you can make any kind of off-meta build work. | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1265 Posts
On August 25 2019 07:21 Chronopolis wrote: BW is based on slight build adjustments, and large amount of micro/positional depth associated with any one unit composition. I mean in fantasy land we could have the same depth but more viable comps, but thats not how the game turned out. Also if you are good enough you can make any kind of off-meta build work. lmao | ||
tankgirl
251 Posts
in this thread: D-league amateurs argue against the highest rated ELO player / 3 MSL / 3 OSL / Golden mouse winner.... if you dont like the meta, go play something else? or maybe apply your energy elsewhere, like email the Vatican with some suggestions for improving the Sistine Chapel? blizzard. will. never. make. balance. changes. | ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote: Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him. This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this. Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds. Man, if you miss fungal and broodlord infestor, go back to SC2, this was one of the most disgusting comments I've read in awhile...are you drunk or something? The Meta will continue to evolve, 1base sair reaver isn't fresh, it's minimal multitasking for a newb to try and have fun, this is an RTS not a MOBA. You have to multitask, I think Protoss will most likely start skipping stargate and just going Forge FE -> 4gate with dark archon / archon / zealot legs in order to combat this build, in my experience opening Forge FE into 4-5 gate Zealot legs and skipping stargate absolutely crushes this build, of course it is somewhat blind but that is what the defensive cannons and Archon are for. | ||
chozen86
United States60 Posts
On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote: Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him. This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this. Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds. LMAO immediately thought of Dazed when I watched this. A+ trolling here too, you really channeled the spirit of Dazed well. :D | ||
Wonk
546 Posts
On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote: Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him. This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this. Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds. It's like he's in the room, A+ | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Even though I read the first line .... It still got me. I rewrote my post twice before .... it realized it wasn't Dazed. Well played sir. Please stop. The Cancer Is Spreading. | ||
KobraKay
Portugal4010 Posts
He suggesting things to other reaces to deal with their problems is rather funny. It is even funnier that they dont listen to him or at least try it xD (well maybe they tried it and couldnt make it work?) | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20712 Posts
Make it happen I say. I imagine it’s more lucrative and enjoyable for him to stream but it’s far less visually evocative. I can just imagine him giving a 3 hour impassioned lecture after a certain TL poster braved the line to ask him ‘is Brood War stale?’ | ||
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
Also @BigFan: Flash was nervous vs effort. You heard that??? :D On August 25 2019 05:34 Anc13nt wrote: Dazed is not here to speak so I will be here to play devil's advocate for him. This is a mere blip for what is otherwise a STALE meta. It seriously makes me think Brood War fans are a cult. That expanding instead of getting a macro hatchery is seen as revolutionary is just sad. All PvZ is about is just hydras fighting zealot ht. And nothing but a fundamental change in map/unit design will change this. Sorry but 9734 won't bring my friends back to this stale game. Maybe make guardians shoot broodlings while adding fungal growth on defiler (so that we can have BROODlord-infestor in BROOD War, for Christ's sake). Also, my hydras just get shredded by psi storm. Not fun so let's make hydras have 99 hp to make it more friendly for casual players. A good implication of this buff is that maybe 9734 will be so strong that protoss will have to resort to FRESH ways of playing like sair reaver and 1 base builds. I'm glad I read the other replies before feeling like a fool because I'm unfamiliar with Dazed's antics | ||
kogeT
Poland2000 Posts
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seriosity
United States214 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2675 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 26 2019 01:18 Terrorbladder wrote: who's Dazed and what did he do/say He went against the religious believers. Now he is character assassinated all the time, without giving any valid reasons why he was wrong or weather or not there is some merit to what he was saying. He got banned from this forum because he posted a MEME picture which is against the rules. Some smuck searched his old history, to character assassinate him. Didnt give any reasons why he was wrong. He got patted on the back for that behavior, "Good job". Typical behavior in a religion. Some smuck is probably trying to look up what religion means, to attack my message right now. In latin religion means to hold back so there is that. There are many hard counters in broodwar and this removes a lot of dynamic and tactics. Even strategies. There is not much one can do with the units available. And the race on top of this, determines the strength. Terran bio has map control in the mid stages of tvz for example. Zerg CANT fight back with ling and lurker, zerg needs defilers. There are many forced moves in this game, and quite frankly many spells are really dull. Plague comes to mind against bio. For balance probably needed, but one can clearly see that broodwar could use changes, and changes if done in a good way could actually .. wait for it.. IMPROVE the game! User was warned for this post. | ||
SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On August 26 2019 11:09 SCC-Faust wrote: Is this another irony post above me? I can't tell. I think that one is real. Dazed wasn't a bad guy. I had nothing against him. But the cringe inducing arguments like the one above are pretty hard to be around. At the top levels in bw, sc2 or chess there is less variation because optimal play destroys certain things. At the tops of any strategy game, if the game is worth playing, there are 'realities' that you can't wish yourself out of. For everyone who is not an S class gamer, there is an incredible amount of variety and the 'realities' are less true, the lower the skill threshhold. E.G the poster above says "Things are forced you can't fight lurker/ling v marines without defiler" Well, I have an account sitting at 1860 mmr vs all koreans where I do nothing but fake 3 hat muta into 4 hat +1 carpace lurker/ling. Turns out, not everyone can control marines as good as pro gamers (who would have thought?) and builds that are sub-optimal gain strength due to novelty, audacity and the physical limitations of the players in dealing with them. | ||
LG)Sabbath
Argentina3022 Posts
For PvZ I think it's even harder because all the units and spells are already being used, I think I'd just like to see zerg use plague more creatively, like dropiing defilers or using them against cannons before attacking. Also haven't seen P use hallucination very often even though sometimes you're left with 8-10 lone templars which you can't cast 10 storms on because it's too micro intensive. Also hallucinating sairs and wiping out all overlords while scourge can't tell which one to hit. | ||
Ej_
47656 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
There is no innovation, no player-made changes, the same maps for decade. This is why my 19 real-life friends who all played Brood War with vivid enthusiasm all quit, and refuse to return. It's the same build orders every game ad nauseum forever with no opportunity for creativity or deviation. When I made my balance suggestions, the church cried "Burn the witch!" like the entranced sheep they are. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On August 26 2019 16:55 ninazerg wrote: Dazed spoke out against the Cult of Brood War, and their holy build-orders that they treasure like Sméagol with the Ring. The Church of Metagaming casts out heretics, because they have the audacity to suggest a game like Brood War should ever change. All I see is the same people posting over and over, affirming to each other how the game is so perfect while the player numbers dwindle down to nothing as it refuses to adapt to change. There is no innovation, no player-made changes, the same maps for decade. This is why my 19 real-life friends who all played Brood War with vivid enthusiasm all quit, and refuse to return. It's the same build orders every game ad nauseum forever with no opportunity for creativity or deviation. When I made my balance suggestions, the church cried "Burn the witch!" like the entranced sheep they are. Hhahahahhahahahha The compilation of your seige tank quotes has me horse-laughing. Thanks. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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AntiHack
Switzerland552 Posts
Nobody expected big meta changes and nobody was looking for it. Big or small meta changes are all welcome but not required at all and with a decent paradigm shift you might grasp how serene and happy is a gamer life without cataclysmic expectations on his favorite sport. This interesting reddit post summarises the concept pretty well and it applies to real life sport too where people live their life happy to see champions mastering their skill and getting excited of tiny meta changes in sports that are extremely old and figured out. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/cv9yle/shaolin_vs_esport_one_of_the_top_comments_on_this/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share Learn to be happy with the sport you like or just move to another sport or quit following sports altogether if you don't have a competitive mindset that brings you joy with simple things like mastering a single build/meta for years. I wish lot of happiness and serenity to all of you | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
On August 26 2019 11:19 AttackZerg wrote: I think that one is real. Dazed wasn't a bad guy. I had nothing against him. But the cringe inducing arguments like the one above are pretty hard to be around. At the top levels in bw, sc2 or chess there is less variation because optimal play destroys certain things. At the tops of any strategy game, if the game is worth playing, there are 'realities' that you can't wish yourself out of. For everyone who is not an S class gamer, there is an incredible amount of variety and the 'realities' are less true, the lower the skill threshhold. E.G the poster above says "Things are forced you can't fight lurker/ling v marines without defiler" Well, I have an account sitting at 1860 mmr vs all koreans where I do nothing but fake 3 hat muta into 4 hat +1 carpace lurker/ling. Turns out, not everyone can control marines as good as pro gamers (who would have thought?) and builds that are sub-optimal gain strength due to novelty, audacity and the physical limitations of the players in dealing with them. I think it's fine to be bored of a game, what doesn't make sense is to be bored of a game and keep playing it and complaining about it. If a whole new a experience is what a person wants, why not play a new RTS? IE what majority of people plays game do: play a new game. Playing the same game for 20 years is by necessity saying that you appreciate what's already there and more subtle changes. I'm bored of coffee. It's all just bean water. One is just like another, with no real differences. Coffee is stale. Other drinks are available? Please ban me from this coffee forum so that I can finally be released from my curse. | ||
Malongo
Chile3466 Posts
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Muff2n
United Kingdom246 Posts
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AntiHack
Switzerland552 Posts
With the premise that mobas are structurally "made" for constant updates, much much more than rts, it's easy to figure out the concept of how automation and simplification can lead to a stale in the competitive scene meta. That concept doesn't contradict my previous point but complement it with the fact that hard videogames or sports can still offer never-ending changes in the meta even if exponentially smaller with the passage of time. it's not a secret that Blizzard have turned more and more casual friendly over the years and lost his way of seeking a true balance between the hardcore and the casual community, (I mean, getting rid of that strong RPG feeling and level of complexity of items in a moba really says a lot about modern Blizzard mindset). We know now that the modern Blizzard formula have failed and in such a huge and volatile gaming industry the casuals are always moving to the next trendy game which lead to an infinite running over the carrot, not only for casuals but for the industry as a whole. In our time a gaming company is forced to take risky decisions, either in the casual way or in the competitive way but trying to make everybody happy can result in the end of a company. | ||
SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
Patch a game to fix minor things, bring out of meta units in, and nerf broken ones. Don't patch a game much and hope the balance of the units was pretty good the last state and that the players will "figure out" how to handle broken things. This is the universe we live in. SC2 keeps patching with massive "change the world" patches which drastically change how units interact and that forces the players to make large changes to their gameplay every year/patch. SCBW doesn't. The gameplay changes in much smaller ways based on patches and discoveries. Depends what y'all like. I think 90% of the people I know who don't play SCBW is because its "old" and "too hard". I've never heard "stale meta". | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
On August 26 2019 23:24 Muff2n wrote: Thank you for the video, it was super interesting. I do struggle to gain insights into the meta / why things work and explanations like this make me wish I spoke Korean. And as a lot of posters above have mentioned, in games like mine, anything goes lol. So I don't get to understand the pros subtleties often. No, we are all kids who are stuck in 1998. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On August 26 2019 23:20 Malongo wrote: And here I was thinking the Broodwar community were mostly middle age mature ~30 males. I am old. True. But since I started playing this game, it has been a loop of people telling me it's dead and dying. When x race loses the game is broken ....ad naseem for 19 years. At some point mockery is the only option. Sc2 is what happens when these people are given their way. The community has a cancerous legion of gamers who cry about everything. Even champions are 'discredited' by "o.p, nerf, buff". Even the top players cry from the biggest stages. It is ridiculous and very cringey. Also, the clickbait title of this thread played some part. Did Action win a single 9734 v Rain or Snow? The answer is ...... no. It is a full court press into a macro game nothing more. +1 sair into zealot reaver or zealot dt + templar is brutal. And without a billion sunkens toss will often just flat out break it. | ||
tankgirl
251 Posts
On August 26 2019 23:09 AntiHack wrote: Meanwhile the Koreans doesn't give a f of your complaints because they live sc1 as a sport instead of a random Barbie videogame. Nobody expected big meta changes and nobody was looking for it. Big or small meta changes are all welcome but not required at all and with a decent paradigm shift you might grasp how serene and happy is a gamer life without cataclysmic expectations on his favorite sport. This interesting reddit post summarises the concept pretty well and it applies to real life sport too where people live their life happy to see champions mastering their skill and getting excited of tiny meta changes in sports that are extremely old and figured out. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/cv9yle/shaolin_vs_esport_one_of_the_top_comments_on_this/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share Learn to be happy with the sport you like or just move to another sport or quit following sports altogether if you don't have a competitive mindset that brings you joy with simple things like mastering a single build/meta for years. I wish lot of happiness and serenity to all of you Thank you for this post. This pretty much sums it up. "Soccer is getting stale. Same round ball, same 22 players running around. always playing the same positions, etc. I think soccer would be better with a square ball, 30 players, and 2 goalies per team. Discuss." Sounds like the dev goal is ultimately not to achieve balance but to induce changes in meta to bait players to return periodically to play/watch the game... | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20712 Posts
On August 27 2019 05:28 AttackZerg wrote: I am old. True. But since I started playing this game, it has been a loop of people telling me it's dead and dying. When x race loses the game is broken ....ad naseem for 19 years. At some point mockery is the only option. Sc2 is what happens when these people are given their way. The community has a cancerous legion of gamers who cry about everything. Even champions are 'discredited' by "o.p, nerf, buff". Even the top players cry from the biggest stages. It is ridiculous and very cringey. Also, the clickbait title of this thread played some part. Did Action win a single 9734 v Rain or Snow? The answer is ...... no. It is a full court press into a macro game nothing more. +1 sair into zealot reaver or zealot dt + templar is brutal. And without a billion sunkens toss will often just flat out break it. Agreed entirely. There’s a big barrier to entry to us oldies going back to Brood War but it’s nearly 2 decades of refinement and knowledge that has to be overcome, that’s all SC2 just has a cancerous element to its playerbase and community, balance whine constantly and it’s eventually indulged. Terrans choose to play with the race that is hardest mechanically, but also benefits most from mechanics and complain constantly that it’s hard. Just fucking annoying really. I’m a mechanical robot dumbass of a player who plays P and T with vT and vP being my best matchups. Borderline a decade of whine at me on ladder, or reading ‘Protossed’ any time a Protoss wins even though they made every correct decision in a game, god. Maybe it’s just dumb luck that more wasn’t patched this year, but Zergs managed to figure out how to deal with Protoss and their variants of Immortal/Robo builds entirely without intervention before change came in. Prior to that Protoss rediscovered these builds when the race’s lategame got nerfed, which forced their hand but these builds always theoretically existed. | ||
Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
BeastyQT I believe mentioned this: it's flawed to design races specifically so they are strong/weak in a certain phase of the game, because it homogenizes strategies (Terran/Protoss, regardless of their style: why would I want to go late game? Zerg: I don't know but I guess I'll go late game cause zerg late game is stronger). Both races should have differing strengths and weaknesses in every phase. | ||
AntiHack
Switzerland552 Posts
On August 27 2019 10:53 Chronopolis wrote: Patches in RTS should be used to improve balance, and optionally to design additional gameplay. Changing up units to encourage different meta is generally signals the problem that 1: each singular meta is insufficiently "fun" 2: branching strategies are too unviable for some reason BeastyQT I believe mentioned this: it's flawed to design races specifically so they are strong/weak in a certain phase of the game, because it homogenizes strategies (Terran/Protoss, regardless of their style: why would I want to go late game? Zerg: I don't know but I guess I'll go late game cause zerg late game is stronger). Both races should have differing strengths and weaknesses in every phase. I don't wanna start a sc1 vs sc2 war but I believe you're completely wrong. You should look what the team is actually doing instead of what is supposed to be doing in a perfect world. Do you think the balance team is overreacting with balance patches following the popular mood? Maybe on purpose? Even with a perfect meta and balance, how long do you think the meta is gonna stay dynamic in such an automated rts? On August 27 2019 07:44 tankgirl wrote: Thank you for this post. This pretty much sums it up. "Soccer is getting stale. Same round ball, same 22 players running around. always playing the same positions, etc. I think soccer would be better with a square ball, 30 players, and 2 goalies per team. Discuss." Sounds like the dev goal is ultimately not to achieve balance but to induce changes in meta to bait players to return periodically to play/watch the game... Thank you and what you're saying is quite true, changing the game resets the casuals frustration and brings part of them back, but in the end of the day how reliable are casuals to keep alive a game that is supposed to be competitive? I think we already know the answer | ||
JoinTheRain
Bulgaria386 Posts
As for the meta - changers - please just play another game and be done already, let BW die already. Is not this your chant? I've heard that it is dying since SC2 came around yet it is somehow miraculously here and the player base is still strong. This game is obviously not changing. Some new build come up, some new maps and that is about it. The tools stay the same, the players have to work out the ways to deal with the challenges, not to put trust in developers who have no idea how to play the game at pro-gamer level. I for one do not want balance changes. I just want to see the best gameplay with the current tools. | ||
whaski
Finland575 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
838 Posts
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
Protoss uses the speedzel pressure to make up for the lack of Corsair scouting and transition based on what they see. | ||
LightSpectra
United States1128 Posts
Thankfully they don't seem to have any interest in doing so. | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1265 Posts
He died for our sins. We rejected him because he told the truth and we did not like it #pray4dazed #stalemeta | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Nothing could be better for my mmr. This is fantastic. They go sair, they can't match 3 hat 2 base muta scourge or hydra, they go templar, they can't defend them v muta. They go archon, they can't hang with hydra-lurker. They go dt, not enough gas for more then 3-4 temps and robo will be soooo late that a lurker contain is a valid opener. Never thought a meta could bring back builds I can actually beat. Thanks to every zerg playing this way. 3 hat lair into ling-lurk or muta scourge is back baby. Go zerg! (Note: at least dazed was a real person and not some desert wizard) | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On August 27 2019 00:16 AntiHack wrote: Here we have another interesting documentary about the rise and fall of Heroes of the Storm that brings some light on how automation and simplicity can hurt an esport competitive scene. https://youtu.be/Q1QQ7yVmARQ With the premise that mobas are structurally "made" for constant updates, much much more than rts, it's easy to figure out the concept of how automation and simplification can lead to a stale in the competitive scene meta. That concept doesn't contradict my previous point but complement it with the fact that hard videogames or sports can still offer never-ending changes in the meta even if exponentially smaller with the passage of time. it's not a secret that Blizzard have turned more and more casual friendly over the years and lost his way of seeking a true balance between the hardcore and the casual community, (I mean, getting rid of that strong RPG feeling and level of complexity of items in a moba really says a lot about modern Blizzard mindset). We know now that the modern Blizzard formula have failed and in such a huge and volatile gaming industry the casuals are always moving to the next trendy game which lead to an infinite running over the carrot, not only for casuals but for the industry as a whole. In our time a gaming company is forced to take risky decisions, either in the casual way or in the competitive way but trying to make everybody happy can result in the end of a company. Heroes of the Storm didn't die because of its mechanics. It was actually the second biggest section at BlizzCon 2018, and the room was packed so full for the finals that people were standing all around the edges of the stage. HotS died because Blizzard pumped ~$10M into it for 2018 including player salaries and broadcasting costs and then pulled the plug suddenly without warning (then added the worst balance patch of all time, but that's a whole other rabbit hole). | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On August 25 2019 10:31 GGzerG wrote: Man, if you miss fungal and broodlord infestor, go back to SC2, this was one of the most disgusting comments I've read in awhile...are you drunk or something? The Meta will continue to evolve, 1base sair reaver isn't fresh, it's minimal multitasking for a newb to try and have fun, this is an RTS not a MOBA. You have to multitask, I think Protoss will most likely start skipping stargate and just going Forge FE -> 4gate with dark archon / archon / zealot legs in order to combat this build, in my experience opening Forge FE into 4-5 gate Zealot legs and skipping stargate absolutely crushes this build, of course it is somewhat blind but that is what the defensive cannons and Archon are for. Lmfaooooo On August 28 2019 01:48 404AlphaSquad wrote: Jealous and his loyal acolytes already ganged up on him by attacking his character in an attempt to discredit his points. He has been banned for weeks on this forum. Yet he has not been forgotten and people still circlejerk about how they are right and every other game sucks. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I work solo and I only expose the truth. EDIT: Sometimes a post facto collab with NinaZerg. | ||
oshibori_probe
United States2932 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 27 2019 10:53 Chronopolis wrote: Patches in RTS should be used to improve balance, and optionally to design additional gameplay. Changing up units to encourage different meta is generally signals the problem that 1: each singular meta is insufficiently "fun" 2: branching strategies are too unviable for some reason BeastyQT I believe mentioned this: it's flawed to design races specifically so they are strong/weak in a certain phase of the game, because it homogenizes strategies (Terran/Protoss, regardless of their style: why would I want to go late game? Zerg: I don't know but I guess I'll go late game cause zerg late game is stronger). Both races should have differing strengths and weaknesses in every phase. This sums it up well enough. No one adressed this part, everyone is bitching about meta there and meta here, "you whine about meta, you are not a real man". I think people lack critical thinking skills to understand this. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Heres something nobody brings up. Every serious patch ruins the games played before it's history. In sc2, if you go backwards at all, they are playing a different game, to the point of making somewhat recent history irrelevant. Not to mention when they made bw, they had no idea how games would go. Now they attempt to design or negate strategies by patch. Creates a sterile hyper meta even faster. Blizzard should not be encouraged to patch or even think about it. They listen to the dumbest loudest players or worse pro gamers with a vested interest in getting o.p features. It is a road that could truly threaten the tentative community that has survived their past transgressions. | ||
A.Alm
Sweden494 Posts
Rain > Sascri Rain > Action Snow > Action I'm surprised these clickbait threads don't get deleted tbh. | ||
Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On August 28 2019 00:08 whaski wrote: Wc3 is a game, that had a long period without patching. Blizzard recently started to "Spice Up" balance, first by fixing bugs and then... Many pros (Lawliet, Infi, Lyn etc) have opinion, that army control plays smaller and smaller role after each patch, hard counters are getting out of hand and game is not fun anymore. And this was only by tweaking numbers. Now they are changing units and abilities radically (lol necromancer orb of fire). That kind of meddling would destroy bw for sure. Woah they are seriously doing this? That's awful. | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1265 Posts
On August 28 2019 15:47 A.Alm wrote: The build that somehow "Broke ZvP" yet managed to not win many games in the latest ASL. Rain > Sascri Rain > Action Snow > Action I'm surprised these clickbait threads don't get deleted tbh. Lol then dont post on it and dont watch it. You are welcome to fuck off. Its literally titled "new sagi 973build? Flash's thought on it" on flashes youtube channel and flash talks about it being currently broken while drawing parallels to the community outburst in korean scene when 111 first came out Well its obvious you are an idiot and havent watched a single minute if you posted anyway since flash addresses the "brokeness" of build from minute 1. You bringing up those stats when 9734 build only came out recently ( right before ro8) is meaningless as well as action having appendicitis surgery days before his game makes it clear that you are retarded if you said this despite watching the video and knowing context behind this video and situation. Might want to look at general community trends, spon matches and streamer& community outlook before putting retarded drivel like "bbut look at the recent asl results!!!" when even that point was covered during flash's explanation (ability to blind counter strat). I'm surprised you can even post given your mental condition tbh User was temp banned for this post. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Thank you for your hard work and for providing such high level content. Sometimes I think we all forget how lucky we are to have community members like you. Have a great day/night and may fortune rain coins into your accounts! Cheers. | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1265 Posts
On August 28 2019 17:56 AttackZerg wrote: Jinjin, I also criticized the titled. I also watched the video and others relating to this new approach. Thank you for your hard work and for providing such high level content. Sometimes I think we all forget how lucky we are to have community members like you. Have a great day/night and may fortune rain coins into your accounts! Cheers. Title sure, I'm translating the title loosely or in context most of time and Korean vids are pretty clickbaity, but him spewing out asl results while clearly not knowing about context behind this was the trigger part when this 9734 topic has been pretty big new issue recently in korea. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On August 28 2019 18:00 jinjin5000 wrote: Title sure, I'm translating the title loosely or in context most of time and Korean vids are pretty clickbaity, but him spewing out asl results while clearly not knowing about context behind this was the trigger part when this 9734 topic has been pretty big new issue recently in korea. I am not defending his comments. Just making sure to say thank you. =)( | ||
A.Alm
Sweden494 Posts
On August 28 2019 17:38 jinjin5000 wrote: Lol then dont post on it and dont watch it. You are welcome to fuck off. Its literally titled "new sagi 973build? Flash's thought on it" on flashes youtube channel and flash talks about it being currently broken while drawing parallels to the community outburst in korean scene when 111 first came out Well its obvious you are an idiot and havent watched a single minute if you posted anyway since flash addresses the "brokeness" of build from minute 1. You bringing up those stats when 9734 build only came out recently ( right before ro8) is meaningless as well as action having appendicitis surgery days before his game makes it clear that you are retarded if you said this despite watching the video and knowing context behind this video and situation. Might want to look at general community trends, spon matches and streamer& community outlook before putting retarded drivel like "bbut look at the recent asl results!!!" when even that point was covered during flash's explanation (ability to blind counter strat). I'm surprised you can even post given your mental condition tbh Yes, because using Youtube as an example for setting titles will generate a great standard here on TeamLiquid. He also says that people will find a counter, just like they did for the 111, fe->5rax, 2h muta, etc, etc... You translate starcraft drama videos at youtube on your free time, but i'm the one with a mental condition. OK. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On August 28 2019 19:30 A.Alm wrote: You translate starcraft drama videos at youtube on your free time, but i'm the one with a mental condition. OK. Welcome to a StarCraft forum, you unappreciative piece of shit. User was warned for this post | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
stop bringing up the title, stop bringing up dazed, hes gone, get over it. | ||
XenOsky
Chile2142 Posts
On August 29 2019 00:15 Jealous wrote: Welcome to a StarCraft forum, you unappreciative piece of shit. User was warned for this post warned¿¿¿¿ this man should be given a medal. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20712 Posts
On August 29 2019 08:55 XenOsky wrote: warned¿¿¿¿ this man should be given a medal. It’s Jealous though, he cares not one jot for medals his prize is living every day of his life as being Jealous, a much more fulfilling prize at the end of the day. Seriously though, the fuck? I love Starcraft(s), I could always admire the play and legacy of a Flash or a Bisu regardless, I’ve got more insight into the man himself and his personality from these translations than anywhere else thus far. I think it’s an invaluable bridge for us foreigners into the Korean scene and it’s great stuff. If you’re fluent in Korean it’s hardly much effort to deliver us this stuff I think Jin’s ban was justified via the terms of the site, I’ve been banned myself a few times for going full retard, possibly with alcohol involved, but it’s great content and I’ll be throwing him my Patreon dollars next month. Assuming you read this Jin, keep up the good work. | ||
tankgirl
251 Posts
If this bothers you, feel free to pick up SCMDraft and make yourself a UMS map. Or play one of the 40,000 UMS maps already in existence? | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20712 Posts
On August 29 2019 09:54 tankgirl wrote: I would be interested to poll all the Korean SCBW Pro Gamers to ask what balance changes they would implement. I bet not a single one of them would genuinely like to see Blizzard start messing with the balance of the game. I for one hope that Blizzard never makes changes at all. If this bothers you, feel free to pick up SCMDraft and make yourself a UMS map. Or play one of the 40,000 UMS maps already in existence? I mean I wouldn’t take much value in it, or any more than I would from a random forum poster really. Why would a cohort of elite BW players from pro houses want the game to change appreciably in the current age? They’ve hit heights even the most dedicated amateur can’t really hit experience wise and mechanically. Same with WC3 as someone alluded to earlier. As to whether Blizzard’s latest rebalancing is good or not is something else entirely. I don’t personally think it needs rebalanced, but the idea a game that wasn’t even built with competitive balance in mind is somehow perfectly balanced, and that balancing with maps is somehow different from patching the base game I don’t get at all. | ||
[AS]Rattus
422 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Corporate entities designing the play of an RTS has not yielded fair or balanced, ever. But the team, originally behind our game was talented and wise. When they increased the cost of the spawning pool and increased build time, slightly weakened zealots (used to be 100/100 100/100) they did this as a result of very obvious early game imbalances. They were not designing a game that is perfectly fair. (in the text above I incorrectly state that Zealots were weakened, when infact they were strengthed, Thx Eri) I think the lack of balance is one of the virtues of broodwar. As a zerg, all of my heros have been kilt my terrans and drowned protoss players in rivers. As a player, I have 1 matchup slightly in my favor, another slightly out of my favor and one that is \null\. and in that glorious imbalance, we have our game. Coming from Chess, it always made sense to me that sometimes I started off an underdog and sometimes an overdog. Or I just lack the imagination for what a balanced game would look like. All sc2 did was reinforce my idea that there is nobody who is good enough at games, designing the games we play to make these choices and even worse the players who are good, are horrible arbiters of fairness. Imagine if Idra was giving a platform to spout his opinions on Protoss? I can only imagine them doing worse then now. This build has not negatively effected Protoss results anywhere except ladder. In competitive play, Zergs are doing even worse then before, not because of the build, but because of poor judgement and decisions directly following it. I hope Effort gets out early and relearns all these Hydra-homies how zerg is supposed to look.... our super power is to predict any punch and negate it by tactic, trick or tech. We have not been the slaves of tempo based plays in this matchup and I hope this fade passes and we get to see Zergs play well again. Save the imagination for ZvT my fellow swarm, ZvP is still our matchup. 6 hat lurker-ling/scourge into 10-11 hat lategame is still the best, strongest, most brutal shit you can do to a protoss. They are an evil people who danced with the powers of the X'el naga. Make Them Suffer. Edit: Also wanted to add, balance would break the gameplay. Draws in a genre without the option for draws make no sense. Imbalance and imperfection stop every match-up from being as redundent as zvz and tvt .... PvP seems to have enough variety to make decent TV, Esp when Rain or Bisu are playing. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28257 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On August 29 2019 20:21 Liquid`Drone wrote: zealots were 80-80 and they were strengthened by being made 60/100 Oh.... Note: Am wrong above. | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On August 29 2019 20:21 Liquid`Drone wrote: zealots were 80-80 and they were strengthened by being made 60/100 We have to go back in time and stop them, those maniacs! In all seriousness Jinjins temp ban was certainly justified there because he flipped out like a crazy person and jealous was warned because he's been here years and I think he's probably been banned more than anyone else / had more accounts than anyone else, he should no better than be like that haha. Hopefully jinjin comes back from his ban and keeps bringing us amazing content though, because it's been great so far <3 | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Not worth reading | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20712 Posts
On August 29 2019 19:47 AttackZerg wrote: Wombat - I would counter your argument about a game that wasn't "built with a competitive balance in mind" and say, that is precisely how we luck boxed our way here. Corporate entities designing the play of an RTS has not yielded fair or balanced, ever. But the team, originally behind our game was talented and wise. When they increased the cost of the spawning pool and increased build time, slightly weakened zealots (used to be 100/100 100/100) they did this as a result of very obvious early game imbalances. They were not designing a game that is perfectly fair. (in the text above I incorrectly state that Zealots were weakened, when infact they were strengthed, Thx Eri) I think the lack of balance is one of the virtues of broodwar. As a zerg, all of my heros have been kilt my terrans and drowned protoss players in rivers. As a player, I have 1 matchup slightly in my favor, another slightly out of my favor and one that is \null\. and in that glorious imbalance, we have our game. Coming from Chess, it always made sense to me that sometimes I started off an underdog and sometimes an overdog. Or I just lack the imagination for what a balanced game would look like. All sc2 did was reinforce my idea that there is nobody who is good enough at games, designing the games we play to make these choices and even worse the players who are good, are horrible arbiters of fairness. Imagine if Idra was giving a platform to spout his opinions on Protoss? I can only imagine them doing worse then now. This build has not negatively effected Protoss results anywhere except ladder. In competitive play, Zergs are doing even worse then before, not because of the build, but because of poor judgement and decisions directly following it. I hope Effort gets out early and relearns all these Hydra-homies how zerg is supposed to look.... our super power is to predict any punch and negate it by tactic, trick or tech. We have not been the slaves of tempo based plays in this matchup and I hope this fade passes and we get to see Zergs play well again. Save the imagination for ZvT my fellow swarm, ZvP is still our matchup. 6 hat lurker-ling/scourge into 10-11 hat lategame is still the best, strongest, most brutal shit you can do to a protoss. They are an evil people who danced with the powers of the X'el naga. Make Them Suffer. Edit: Also wanted to add, balance would break the gameplay. Draws in a genre without the option for draws make no sense. Imbalance and imperfection stop every match-up from being as redundent as zvz and tvt .... PvP seems to have enough variety to make decent TV, Esp when Rain or Bisu are playing. I do largely agree with most of this to be fair. In fact basically all of it. Good post . | ||
Models
Canada88 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8517 Posts
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Bonyth
Poland498 Posts
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1288 Posts
I don't care what rank, mmr you guys are, but if you wanna beat 3 hatch hydra(renamed 973) then just go nexus first or forge expo. protoss players have been doing 1 gate expo every game and that's what 3hatch hydra looks so strong. Here's the basic knowledge i gathered from HyuK's comment on Overwatch Rain vs Sacsri. He said that zerg should not ever go for hydra first vs 12 nexus. it's basically a throwing a game because of protoss's economy+speed of tech. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
On August 30 2019 19:23 LaStScan wrote: i didn't read all of the comments, but i see dramas. 3hatch hydra is not broken at all. I don't care what rank, mmr you guys are, but if you wanna beat 3 hatch hydra(renamed 973) then just go nexus first or forge expo. protoss players have been doing 1 gate expo every game and that's what 3hatch hydra looks so strong. Here's the basic knowledge i gathered from HyuK's comment on Overwatch Rain vs Sacsri. He said that zerg should not ever go for hydra first vs 12 nexus. it's basically a throwing a game because of protoss's economy+speed of tech. Well .... you didn't read the comments and managed to say nothing that was useful or related to the topic. So ... congratulations in a thread full of bad posts ... you are right near the top. like .... the new "973" ... is the 9734 .. which is a 4 hat hydra ... 0/10 wouldn't recommend posting without reading. Or watch the video .... LOL Edit: I have msged Lastscan and apologized for A) misreading his initial post and B) being harsh. There are messages that follow in this thread where I walk further upon steps of misunderstanding. In an effort to make the thread better, I crapped it up. Sorry to everyone but that one guy | ||
LaStScan
Korea (South)1288 Posts
On August 30 2019 19:26 AttackZerg wrote: Well .... you didn't read the comments and managed to say nothing that was useful or related to the topic. So ... congratulations in a thread full of bad posts ... you are right near the top. like .... the new "973" ... is the 9734 .. which is a 4 hat hydra ... 0/10 wouldn't recommend posting without reading. Or watch the video .... LOL yeah, i didn't read. that's what i said in the first sentence. i'm just here to give out the solution what P should be doing. I watched the video way before someone posted on tl.net with english sub. probably i'll go through some comments later when i get off the bus. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
Never mind. Not worth it. | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
I'm curious about the gate expand though, how is 3hh better against it, compared to forge? Toss delays tech, but zerg delays his timings as well to defend the early zealots, so I thought it comes down to how good the trades are. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
You know ... since this thread is about a 4 hat hydra into mass hatchery macro play aka the new "973" which is 9734 which is 4 hat hydra and the problems protoss are experiencing with this new trend. Since some of you seem to be struggling. Here is the build which is relevant: https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/550622-zvp-zeros-new-9734-build the 4 at the end .... is 4th hatchery. Or you can click on the sc2 forum and post there since your comments are about as relevant here as there. Here is a link that is relevant to what you guys are talking about Protoss Counter to Zerg All-ins or here https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/438605-pvz-counter-all-ins-and-cheese It is ancient history and not very interesting but it seems to be what you guys find interesting. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
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jinjin5000
Korea (South)1265 Posts
On August 29 2019 21:28 Qikz wrote: We have to go back in time and stop them, those maniacs! In all seriousness Jinjins temp ban was certainly justified there because he flipped out like a crazy person and jealous was warned because he's been here years and I think he's probably been banned more than anyone else / had more accounts than anyone else, he should no better than be like that haha. Hopefully jinjin comes back from his ban and keeps bringing us amazing content though, because it's been great so far <3 I had to he began bringing up asl stats Maybe i should stop posting with korean translated titles. The video itself deals with perception of "broken" builds and how it goes through cycle and problem solving through innovation and adaption and at final course of through maps if no other choice But dazed does get btfo | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On August 30 2019 21:26 AttackZerg wrote: There is an mmr for posting? If so, you guys are dreadful. Been back 2 weeks and I'm 1850-1950 on any given day. I'm good with where I'm at. And I've beaten several of the top 40 in bsl in 50 minute games. Once again, being a good player doesn't mean you aren't a crap poster. Are you a good player or just a crap poster? Oh wait I don't care.... Anything to say about the actual topic? if i want to listen to the latest developments on say theoretical physics, who do i listen to, the physics scientist or the high school physics teacher? the teacher "maybe" can explain basic concepts better but im not after basic concepts here, i want the advanced theory only the scientist/s have. if deferring to the scientist over the teacher means "sucking cock" like you ascribed to me in your childish PM, then i have no other words for you and just hope you have a good day. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
You posted nothing relevant. I did send you a funny pm. I regret responding to someone who has never made a good post before. Also.... you can get wrecked in a streamed showmatch ..... you know if you are good enough for advanced lessons. I will gladly mock you publicly. NP Mr.Gosu. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On August 30 2019 21:47 AttackZerg wrote: He offered nothing relevant. You posted nothing relevant. I did send you a funny pm. I regret responding to someone who has never made a good post before. scan impromptu translation of hyuk provided more insight than any of your comments on this thread. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
I have wasted time and words. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On August 30 2019 21:47 AttackZerg wrote: He offered nothing relevant. You posted nothing relevant. I did send you a funny pm. I regret responding to someone who has never made a good post before. Also.... you can get wrecked in a streamed showmatch ..... you know if you are good enough for advanced lessons. I will gladly mock you publicly. NP Mr.Gosu. You know who Scan is, right? | ||
Models
Canada88 Posts
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1288 Posts
He probably thinks im just a random english speaker who is interested in sc | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
On August 30 2019 21:43 jinjin5000 wrote: I had to he began bringing up asl stats Maybe i should stop posting with korean translated titles. The video itself deals with perception of "broken" builds and how it goes through cycle and problem solving through innovation and adaption and at final course of through maps if no other choice But dazed does get btfo I think it's a minority that cares about such a detail. Most people are just happy for the translations The only change would be "Flash talks about 973" which doesn't convey the buzz around 973 and makes the video less interesting, makes it sound like he's just talking about some build. By all means name them what you want, but don't get worried just because one or two people have an opinion on it. I think the title was good, it lead me into the video and the video delivered what I expected. | ||
AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
I do not know who scan is. I apologized for being a dick thou. Regardless of who he is, I should have been nicer. Without knowing who he is I did pm him an apology. Gosu or not, I was a dick. Sorry again dude. | ||
jinjin5000
Korea (South)1265 Posts
On August 31 2019 04:27 Models wrote: I think after all this...permaban Telecom seems best | ||
XenOsky
Chile2142 Posts
On August 30 2019 19:23 LaStScan wrote: i didn't read all of the comments, but i see dramas. 3hatch hydra is not broken at all. I don't care what rank, mmr you guys are, but if you wanna beat 3 hatch hydra(renamed 973) then just go nexus first or forge expo. protoss players have been doing 1 gate expo every game and that's what 3hatch hydra looks so strong. Here's the basic knowledge i gathered from HyuK's comment on Overwatch Rain vs Sacsri. He said that zerg should not ever go for hydra first vs 12 nexus. it's basically a throwing a game because of protoss's economy+speed of tech. but that opens 9p to just straight kill you, if protoss opens nexus 1st is basically gambling that zerg is going overpool. | ||
PorkSoda
170 Posts
On August 31 2019 07:51 AttackZerg wrote: I do not know who scan is. I apologized for being a dick thou. Regardless of who he is, I should have been nicer. Without knowing who he is I did pm him an apology. Gosu or not, I was a dick. Sorry again dude. Scan | ||
LaStScan
Korea (South)1288 Posts
On August 31 2019 08:35 XenOsky wrote: but that opens 9p to just straight kill you, if protoss opens nexus 1st is basically gambling that zerg is going overpool. True. However zerg rarely does 9pool vs protoss. If it was a bo1, any long game series, 99.99% zerg goes overlord first in the first game to see what protoss does. It has something to do with mind games. Zerg always would like to observe and analyze first by playing standard opening(overlord first = 1) overpool 2) 12 hatchery). Protoss should take the advantage of this and go for nexus first as a gamble and it will most likely to success from the build order battle. It's like this. We all know race advantage order is z>p>t>z. Disadvantage side opponent usually takes expo first would always give a high chance to make a balance game or even flip the table around. Zvt = 12hatchery Tvp = rax expo Pvz = 12nexus This kind of build order fight will make the game change so much. Of course you can play standard like Tvp = factory expo Pvz = gate expo, forge expo Zvt = 9pool no gas expo But it won't be as poweful as the earlier build order ive mentioned. This is why you can't go for hydra den first vs 12 nexus (even forge expo depending on how well protoss manage). Like asl match flash vs rain Flash didnt want to give a single chance and choose rax expo 2 games in a row. We all know flash is an insane god terran, but adding a build order advantage is equal to "im gonna go for straight 3-0". | ||
PorkSoda
170 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2142 Posts
On August 31 2019 17:03 LaStScan wrote: True. However zerg rarely does 9pool vs protoss. If it was a bo1, any long game series, 99.99% zerg goes overlord first in the first game to see what protoss does. It has something to do with mind games. Zerg always would like to observe and analyze first by playing standard opening(overlord first = 1) overpool 2) 12 hatchery). Protoss should take the advantage of this and go for nexus first as a gamble and it will most likely to success from the build order battle. It's like this. We all know race advantage order is z>p>t>z. Disadvantage side opponent usually takes expo first would always give a high chance to make a balance game or even flip the table around. Zvt = 12hatchery Tvp = rax expo Pvz = 12nexus This kind of build order fight will make the game change so much. Of course you can play standard like Tvp = factory expo Pvz = gate expo, forge expo Zvt = 9pool no gas expo But it won't be as poweful as the earlier build order ive mentioned. This is why you can't go for hydra den first vs 12 nexus (even forge expo depending on how well protoss manage). Like asl match flash vs rain Flash didnt want to give a single chance and choose rax expo 2 games in a row. We all know flash is an insane god terran, but adding a build order advantage is equal to "im gonna go for straight 3-0". done 12 nexus last 6 pvz i played 4 games vs overpool , 3 of them went all in zerglings, the other went 3 hatch lurker into drops... 1game vs 12 hatch, he played 3h spire > 6 h hidra. 1 game vs 9p, i died instantly. basically no 973 / 9734 vs 12nexus... which is kinda amazing cause last few days i was doing 11 forge , 13 nexus and almost all zergs went 3h hydra builds. LUL | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
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seriosity
United States214 Posts
why zergs don't 3hh vs 11 nex? it's simple: citadel is way faster than normal. | ||
XenOsky
Chile2142 Posts
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LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On August 28 2019 17:38 jinjin5000 wrote: Lol then dont post on it and dont watch it. You are welcome to fuck off. Its literally titled "new sagi 973build? Flash's thought on it" on flashes youtube channel and flash talks about it being currently broken while drawing parallels to the community outburst in korean scene when 111 first came out Well its obvious you are an idiot and havent watched a single minute if you posted anyway since flash addresses the "brokeness" of build from minute 1. You bringing up those stats when 9734 build only came out recently ( right before ro8) is meaningless as well as action having appendicitis surgery days before his game makes it clear that you are retarded if you said this despite watching the video and knowing context behind this video and situation. Might want to look at general community trends, spon matches and streamer& community outlook before putting retarded drivel like "bbut look at the recent asl results!!!" when even that point was covered during flash's explanation (ability to blind counter strat). I'm surprised you can even post given your mental condition tbh User was temp banned for this post. I have a problem with jinjin5000 beeing banned for that post, I think I'm entirely against the logic behind this: So, A.Alm gets to be an idiot and ask for a post to be removed (?) and shits in one stupid sentence on the work of another who took minutes or hours to be produced? And jinjin5000 can't spit some mean spirited words to him, because he gets banned and for everyone here to see it on top of that? I swear theres so much bullshit behind morale and political correctiveness its ridiculous, people need to wake up. Think about it, one guy produces 0 and does shit and gets to be cleverly and openly disrespectful because he didn't pronounced any insult. Forget about bad or good and think about outcome, a disrespecful ranter vs a guy who brings ideas, produces stuff, invites people to participate in something In my opinion this thread is gold, I get so hyped when I get to see subs videos of pro's talking about meta and strategies.On the other hand I think useless stupid posts writted in auto-mode could very well be erased since they contribute 0 and are a waste of time and space jinjin5000 ty for your posts, great job on your translations and on your YouTube channel, wich is awesome. Keep the good work, don't listen to the miserable men. | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
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Jealous
9974 Posts
On September 02 2019 14:10 LocoBolon wrote: I have a problem with jinjin5000 beeing banned for that post, I think I'm entirely against the logic behind this: So, A.Alm gets to be an idiot and ask for a post to be removed (?) and shits in one stupid sentence on the work of another who took minutes or hours to be produced? And jinjin5000 can't spit some mean spirited words to him, because he gets banned and for everyone here to see it on top of that? I swear theres so much bullshit behind morale and political correctiveness its ridiculous, people need to wake up. Think about it, one guy produces 0 and does shit and gets to be cleverly and openly disrespectful because he didn't pronounced any insult. Forget about bad or good and think about outcome, a disrespecful ranter vs a guy who brings ideas, produces stuff, invites people to participate in something In my opinion this thread is gold, I get so hyped when I get to see subs videos of pro's talking about meta and strategies.On the other hand I think useless stupid posts writted in auto-mode could very well be erased since they contribute 0 and are a waste of time and space jinjin5000 ty for your posts, great job on your translations and on your YouTube channel, wich is awesome. Keep the good work, don't listen to the miserable men. You will get told (possibly) to make this post in "Website Feedback" on the left-hand sidebar, but while we're here, I completely agree with you. Contributors should be afforded some breathing room, people who do very little but complain about others' contributions should be handled as "judiciously" as possible. I respect the fact that TeamLiquid has standards and that we may not be as acquainted with any individual user's history (usually ) and I certainly don't believe that any user should be "above the law," but let's be real - this community has contributors, detractors, parasites, liars, cheats, generous gosus, translators, moderators, trolls, anonymous users, etc. It is foolish to assume that they should all be treated equally IMO. -- a troll in rehab | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
I also wasn't aware that 12 nex wroked so well against this, so maybe increasing the 12 nex ratio and combine that with the other stuff I said earlier asuming they could be useful at all could somehow end up in something advantageus? | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On September 02 2019 14:21 Jealous wrote: You will get told (possibly) to make this post in "Website Feedback" on the left-hand sidebar, but while we're here, I completely agree with you. Contributors should be afforded some breathing room, people who do very little but complain about others' contributions should be handled as "judiciously" as possible. I respect the fact that TeamLiquid has standards and that we may not be as acquainted with any individual user's history (usually ) and I certainly don't believe that any user should be "above the law," but let's be real - this community has contributors, detractors, parasites, liars, cheats, generous gosus, translators, moderators, trolls, anonymous users, etc. It is foolish to assume that they should all be treated equally IMO. -- a troll in rehab Yes, for me different events, things and people have different value, it's only natural, obvius and inevitable, moral and standars many times, try to fight that idea and end up beeing bullshit and existing only for scumsbags to be clever and sneaky around them, like in this case. I dont value all the people the same in every scenario, that would be a blatant lie and some sort of intellectual cancer. For example, the opinion of a korean speaker who is very gosu at bw and is in direct contact with what we call the pro scene does not worth the same than the opinion who joins TL for the first time and never heard about the game. Does that make sense to anyone else? I bet it does. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
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Jealous
9974 Posts
On September 02 2019 15:25 ggsimida wrote: imo this forum needs some kind of upvote/thanks system for posts, tons of other online forums have those, i swear this is the only one without it. (no downvotes tho) TL Plus. Realistically though, I like and respect the fact that popularity is not a factor in a post's position in a thread, nor are threads pushed up or down by public opinion. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On September 02 2019 15:32 Jealous wrote: TL Plus. Realistically though, I like and respect the fact that popularity is not a factor in a post's position in a thread, nor are threads pushed up or down by public opinion. a upvote/thank system generally works well for filtering which posts are actually useful/informative. i wouldn't have to waste time seeing those a alm posts for example. what would be better is that regular posters get low voting power while people with TL plus or gosu players w/e have higher, so everyone has a chance to vote but experience/expertise backing wins out. also i did emphasise no downvotes, since downvoting is the typical method for vote brigading, not upvote. | ||
hitthat
Poland2203 Posts
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Jealous
9974 Posts
On September 02 2019 15:46 ggsimida wrote: a upvote/thank system generally works well for filtering which posts are actually useful/informative. i wouldn't have to waste time seeing those a alm posts for example. what would be better is that regular posters get low voting power while people with TL plus or gosu players w/e have higher, so everyone has a chance to vote but experience/expertise backing wins out. also i did emphasise no downvotes, since downvoting is the typical method for vote brigading, not upvote. Upvoting and sorting by upvotes still creates echo chambers, though. It can push trite yet popular ideas to the top, thus creating a stale forum meta. | ||
evilfatsh1t
Australia8517 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden494 Posts
What groundbreaking information did Flash add that deserves a thread with the title "build that broke PvZ"? If this build has broken the matchup (as you say, JinJin), it would be nice to back it up with some data (as i did with ASL). If you don't like my data, counter it with better data. | ||
ggsimida
1100 Posts
On September 02 2019 23:00 Jealous wrote: Upvoting and sorting by upvotes still creates echo chambers, though. It can push trite yet popular ideas to the top, thus creating a stale forum meta. in the first place a forum centred around a particular topic/niche tend to be less receptive to outside views anyway. btw that echo chamber that would have dazed posts at the bottom and your memey dazed stale thesis at the top, which is what everyone wanted... a meritocratic voting system like i mention (which you dont see in reddit which is what people think of echo chambers)would curb nonsensical posts at the minimum. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
On September 02 2019 23:00 Jealous wrote: Upvoting and sorting by upvotes still creates echo chambers, though. It can push trite yet popular ideas to the top, thus creating a stale forum meta. The only really effective system is to have a person with similar tastes and more time than you, or a group of like minded contributors to aggregate information that you will likely be interested in. In either case, because there won't be 100% overlap, your horizons will be broadened slightly, just enough to still be comfortable, but not so much that your consuming landfills worth of trash down your gullet. Luckily this is subforum with less than 10 posts per day, you don't really need the aggregate. Like many people do when they see my username, you can simply skim over / skip what you don't like unless you are a hopeless masochist. No further optimization needed. The desire to punish people (through down voting into obscurity) for making a post you didn't like or to make sure a bad opinion doesn't spread is a personal problem you'll have to work through with your teddy bears. | ||
darktreb
United States3014 Posts
On September 03 2019 00:47 A.Alm wrote: Flash says in the video that protoss will find a way to deal with this, and if not, the maps will change to balance this. 70% of video is him talking about 111 build / f.e 5rax and how zergs eventually found a counter to it (because he is a Terran player, not a protoss player), and also that we shouldn't worry about this breaking the match up. What groundbreaking information did Flash add that deserves a thread with the title "build that broke PvZ"? If this build has broken the matchup (as you say, JinJin), it would be nice to back it up with some data (as i did with ASL). If you don't like my data, counter it with better data. He basically just translated the hyperbolic title used on the actual video itself. Maybe it was a bit misleading but it was a translation and this is a random thread on TL, not an article in a newspaper. You've made a mountain out of a molehill and come off as a huge jerk along the way. Data is important but people who play the "counter my data with data" card without recognizing whether it's an appropriate context to do so just set back situations where data is legitimately important. No one is claiming 9734 has broken anything beyond the hyperbolic title, which seems totally appropriate when someone took the time to translate a video and provide a great service to the community. Of course you then insulted the translator. Here's some data for you: Number of (useful and interesting) translations by jinjin: many Number of translations by you: 0 | ||
A.Alm
Sweden494 Posts
On September 03 2019 02:12 darktreb wrote: He basically just translated the hyperbolic title used on the actual video itself. Maybe it was a bit misleading but it was a translation and this is a random thread on TL, not an article in a newspaper. You've made a mountain out of a molehill and come off as a huge jerk along the way. Data is important but people who play the "counter my data with data" card without recognizing whether it's an appropriate context to do so just set back situations where data is legitimately important. No one is claiming 9734 has broken anything beyond the hyperbolic title, which seems totally appropriate when someone took the time to translate a video and provide a great service to the community. Of course you then insulted the translator. Here's some data for you too: Number of (useful and interesting) translations by jinjin: many Number of translations by you: 0 I mentioned the ASL results. How are they irrelevant? Here's some more data for you: Number of (useful and interesting) translations by jinjin: many Number of translations by you: 0 ^ now that is irrelevant data | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On September 03 2019 02:12 darktreb wrote: He basically just translated the hyperbolic title used on the actual video itself. Maybe it was a bit misleading but it was a translation and this is a random thread on TL, not an article in a newspaper. You've made a mountain out of a molehill and come off as a huge jerk along the way. Data is important but people who play the "counter my data with data" card without recognizing whether it's an appropriate context to do so just set back situations where data is legitimately important. No one is claiming 9734 has broken anything beyond the hyperbolic title, which seems totally appropriate when someone took the time to translate a video and provide a great service to the community. Of course you then insulted the translator. Here's some data for you: Number of (useful and interesting) translations by jinjin: many Number of translations by you: 0 Exactly man ty, cutting right through the bullshit. A guy takes the time to translate and subs a pretty cool video featuring GOD of the game talking about BW and this clown try to make him back up on his words claiming idk what about the title... jesus christ... and even ask for the thread to be removed (¿?¿?) Me, I want as many Flash subs video talking about anything as possible, the more the better, so for me this fucking worm is an annoyance getting in the way of something good, he even managed to get the guy I should thank for the content temp banned. A.Aim: to me, right now, everything you say has the same value as rotten food on the floor, get out of the way trash, you are bothering me. | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On September 03 2019 03:58 A.Alm wrote: I mentioned the ASL results. How are they irrelevant? Here's some more data for you: Number of (useful and interesting) translations by jinjin: many Number of translations by you: 0 ^ now that is irrelevant data You asking for this thread to be removed is ANTI-BW, GET OUT, you are the one who should be erased here, you are a waste of time, you are less than a 0, rotten food... User was warned for this post. | ||
Whatson
United States5354 Posts
On September 03 2019 00:47 A.Alm wrote: Flash says in the video that protoss will find a way to deal with this, and if not, the maps will change to balance this. 70% of video is him talking about 111 build / f.e 5rax and how zergs eventually found a counter to it (because he is a Terran player, not a protoss player), and also that we shouldn't worry about this breaking the match up. What groundbreaking information did Flash add that deserves a thread with the title "build that broke PvZ"? If this build has broken the matchup (as you say, JinJin), it would be nice to back it up with some data (as i did with ASL). If you don't like my data, counter it with better data. Jinjin is translating a video - a video that to me was worth listening to. Furthermore, since I don't play/follow BW as religiously as I did before, I wouldn't have been seen or understood anything in this video unless jinjin posted the translation of it. Why are you being so nitpicky about him translating and posting it? | ||
imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On September 03 2019 03:58 A.Alm wrote: I mentioned the ASL results. How are they irrelevant? Here's some more data for you: Number of (useful and interesting) translations by jinjin: many Number of translations by you: 0 ^ now that is irrelevant data If you're reading a translated article, do you shoot the translator or do you shoot the person who actually wrote the article? | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On September 03 2019 04:17 imBLIND wrote: If you're reading a translated article, do you shoot the translator or do you shoot the person who actually wrote the article? Neither, you just be an unappreciative moron on forums about it. | ||
A.Alm
Sweden494 Posts
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9931 Posts
step 1: someone puts in a lot of time to give us really good content step 2: someone comes along and make a horrifically stupid comment step 3: everyone gets moderated and we stop getting content my suspicion is that this cycle can be broken if we can just eliminate step 2. it'd be nice if we collectively tried to do this. A.Alm i understand you are only working with what god gave you but please try your best thank you everybody for your cooperation | ||
neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On September 03 2019 05:29 intrigue wrote: my suspicion is that this cycle can be broken if we can just eliminate step 2. it'd be nice if we collectively tried to do this. A.Alm i understand you are only working with what god gave you but please try your best thank you everybody for your cooperation Excellent suggestion. I enjoyed the video. | ||
PorkSoda
170 Posts
On September 03 2019 05:29 intrigue wrote: this always happens. it goes like this: step 1: someone puts in a lot of time to give us really good content step 2: someone comes along and make a horrifically stupid comment step 3: everyone gets moderated and we stop getting content my suspicion is that this cycle can be broken if we can just eliminate step 2. it'd be nice if we collectively tried to do this. A.Alm i understand you are only working with what god gave you but please try your best thank you everybody for your cooperation Thank you for this sanity check. The foreign Brood war scene needs all the help it can get. Most of us appreciate jinjin’s work, and I would hate for it to stop. So what if the title is click baity? It was flash’s title. Plus, even if 9734 has broken the matchup at the moment, the point that flash was making it won’t stay broken. | ||
A.Alm
Sweden494 Posts
On September 03 2019 05:29 intrigue wrote: this always happens. it goes like this: step 1: someone puts in a lot of time to give us really good content step 2: someone comes along and make a horrifically stupid comment step 3: everyone gets moderated and we stop getting content my suspicion is that this cycle can be broken if we can just eliminate step 2. it'd be nice if we collectively tried to do this. A.Alm i understand you are only working with what god gave you but please try your best thank you everybody for your cooperation Thanks for feedback! I will try my best, but its kinda hard thanks to my unfortunate god given brain injury. Bless me. | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On September 03 2019 05:29 intrigue wrote: this always happens. it goes like this: step 1: someone puts in a lot of time to give us really good content step 2: someone comes along and make a horrifically stupid comment step 3: everyone gets moderated and we stop getting content my suspicion is that this cycle can be broken if we can just eliminate step 2. it'd be nice if we collectively tried to do this. A.Alm i understand you are only working with what god gave you but please try your best thank you everybody for your cooperation yes man that's exactly how I feel, that's why I'm beeing so energetic about this. I don't wante this to go unnoticed and JinJin feel like his work is not beeing appreciated and that none is backing him up when beeing moderated. I just didn't wanted to let it go, we as a group need to take care of the valuable members of this community, lack of care and compromise may make them go away and that would be detrimental for everyone. Mistakes can be made, and most of the problems of this sort can be solverd by just talking. A.Aim, I really appreciate you saying you understand our point, I apologize to you and everyone for the uproar, but I also assumed you are are grown man who could take some verbal beating and survive. Hwaiting! | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On September 03 2019 07:45 LocoBolon wrote: yes man that's exactly how I feel, that's why I'm beeing so energetic about this. I don't wante this to go unnoticed and JinJin feel like his work is not beeing appreciated and that none is backing him up when beeing moderated. I just didn't wanted to let it go, we as a group need to take care of the valuable members of this community, lack of care and compromise may make them go away and that would be detrimental for everyone. Mistakes can be made, and most of the problems of this sort can be solverd by just talking. A.Aim, I really appreciate you saying you understand our point, I apologize to you and everyone for the uproar, but I also assumed you are are grown man who could take some verbal beating and survive. Hwaiting! Sadly, he was being facetious. | ||
HaruHaru
United States988 Posts
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MrMischelito
347 Posts
On August 27 2019 05:05 SchAmToo wrote: There's two choices to making a game: Patch a game to fix minor things, bring out of meta units in, and nerf broken ones. Don't patch a game much and hope the balance of the units was pretty good the last state and that the players will "figure out" how to handle broken things. This is the universe we live in. SC2 keeps patching with massive "change the world" patches which drastically change how units interact and that forces the players to make large changes to their gameplay every year/patch. SCBW doesn't. The gameplay changes in much smaller ways based on patches and discoveries. Depends what y'all like. I think 90% of the people I know who don't play SCBW is because its "old" and "too hard". I've never heard "stale meta". i agree. never liked the philisophy of many patches - not in games, not in any kind of software | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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