TeamLiquid is looking to recruit writers to help with covering the various BW leagues in 2018 as well as individuals who would be interested in using their skills and imagination to help deliver stunning graphics for our coverage.
Description: As a BW writer, you will be responsible for writing recaps, previews, feature articles and more as needed. The written pieces can be concise or lengthy, heavily dependent on what is being covered. They should be done in a timely manner as well. Positions are not paid and are on a strictly voluntary basis though there is a chance for compensation in the future.
How to Apply: Send an application containing the following information to BigFan and/or 2Pacalypse-.
Your TeamLiquid.net ID and Discord information. For coordination purposes, we require writers to use Discord.
Short introduction and relevant background information as it pertains to this position. Please do not send resumes.
Availability and desired workload.
Applications are open indefinitely.
Two test writing assignments must also be completed.
Write a recap of a single day or an event that recently unfolded in the BW scene (ASL6, KSL and other online tournaments are options). Try to tell a story and be as creative as you like. Be concise or go all out; there are no limitations so long as the piece is interesting to read. Examples provided above are for reference only and show several different approaches when it comes to doing recaps.
Write an article previewing a group(s) or a main storyline leading into the tournament. A main storyline includes, but is not limited to, looking at a tournament favorite or popular player going into the event and any tournament specific storylines. Considering that ASL6 is currently ongoing, a preview article could focus on that tournament in particular. The possibility of EffOrt taking his first ASL championship is one example. Be as creative as you like and make the article an entertaining read.
Description: As a BW Artist, you will be responsible for providing awesome banners for our writeups, and liasoning with other staff. This position is for those who are really creative, and want to test their limits and imagination. This position is not paid and is on a strictly voluntary basis. If your application is accepted, you will get to work right away so apply today!
How to Apply: Send an application containing the following information to BigFan and/or 2Pacalypse-.
Your TeamLiquid.net ID and Discord information. For coordination purposes, we require staff to use Discord.
Short introduction of yourself. Please do not send resumes.
Please provide some examples of work that you have done either in this community or another that show your passion and dedication to the game. Basically, show us what you are capable of. Don't forget to provide any other relevant background information that pertain to this position.
Lights, ~~~ camera, ~ Action's got the stamina he's comin for yo Gs, don't mind me telling ya, p-lease ~~~
There's nowhere to run under the swarm the slaughter's only begun as we're watching our champion and chatting in the LR, it's fun!
'Cuz of the nydus you see the light of the supplies on fire early. Light looking so tired GGs as we all admire
all the skill we've seen transpire, 'nouncer lady feels desire. Mafia's legit no liar when he says he'll satisfy her
appetite for games so high on entertainment scales, retires all her fears of not having done anything with life; skies are bright,
glaring rockstardom in her eyes. I forgot what I advertise oh right playing mob on the side?'s awesomer than you realize.
Mob's gameplay and story stores a cornuh copia world for the broodwar wiseguys to explore; uh-huh! will render progames mem'ra ble like yo first time with a girl curled up, spooning a kin to Merl in keeping books. Magic unfurl ing follow this link just click...
Just wanted to say that we don't bite! haha. If you're looking to have fun working with staff, and discussing BW, feel free to apply. Just ask Ty2 and Ziggy, our last two recruits
as a guy who spotted someone hiding in a grassy knoll....
this advertising is a good sign. TL usually knows stuff before the general public. its good to see TL is still putting effort and resources into Starcraft. I hope this means Blizzard is still putting effort and resources into RTS in general.. and Starcraft in particular.
more seriously though, if BigFan doesn't chump on at least 3 cigars a day while bellowing "PARKER ... PARKER"... his editor designation should be removed.
@chuDr3t4 yes, they seem to have him in that first spot, though they also don't have KSL which was the first iteration. Not really sure what their thoughts are here and if we can truly count this as an ASL win. It's definitely not one in my mind.
@Dave4 Ah dang, completely forgot and now it's too late because you found out. Well, no worries, you can still apply with everyone else! :D
@JimmyJRaynor well, I've never tried a cigar before. Are you saying that there's a first time for everything?
@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs, and that organisations feel that they can exploit this for free labour.
@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs.
If I applied to write here, I'd do it out of the love of the game and with a desire to build the community. That would be the reward, and any chance to f.ex. get free tickets to events and such to cover it would be seen as a great bonus. It'd be done in my freetime, as part of a hobby. I don't see how it could devalue, when the alternative would be to have nothing at all, since there's practically no money for it in the first place.
I agree on not being taken advantage of. But I feel this is quite the wrong place to take that fight. Some people would build a house for free, give materials for free, make an app for free, assuming it was for a certain cause. For those applying here, BW is one such cause. If anything, it's more a fantastic resource for the community having such skills being put to use. To build for the sake of what we love, rather than everything being about money (unlike an actual job to pay the bills with etc.).
Wasn't this a paid staff responsibility in the days of old? Surprising to see tl going the "free exposure" route on a call for creatives. Really confused about this, especially after listening to all the Chill/staff interviews way back hearing him describe getting paid for a lot of work along these lines.
@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs.
If I applied to write here, I'd do it out of the love of the game and with a desire to build the community. That would be the reward, and any chance to f.ex. get free tickets to events and such to cover it would be seen as a great bonus. It'd be done in my freetime, as part of a hobby. I don't see how it could devalue, when the alternative would be to have nothing at all, since there's practically no money for it in the first place.
I agree on not being taken advantage of. But I feel this is quite the wrong place to take that fight. Some people would build a house for free, give materials for free, make an app for free, assuming it was for a certain cause. For those applying here, BW is one such cause. If anything, it's more a fantastic resource for the community having such skills being put to use. To build for the sake of what we love, rather than everything being about money (unlike an actual job to pay the bills with etc.).
sure, I've done design work for charities for free before. But don't kid yourself here; TL can pay, they're a for-profit organisation, and it's simply exploitation of a dedicated community to even pitch a volunteer position here.
@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs.
If I applied to write here, I'd do it out of the love of the game and with a desire to build the community. That would be the reward, and any chance to f.ex. get free tickets to events and such to cover it would be seen as a great bonus. It'd be done in my freetime, as part of a hobby. I don't see how it could devalue, when the alternative would be to have nothing at all, since there's practically no money for it in the first place.
I agree on not being taken advantage of. But I feel this is quite the wrong place to take that fight. Some people would build a house for free, give materials for free, make an app for free, assuming it was for a certain cause. For those applying here, BW is one such cause. If anything, it's more a fantastic resource for the community having such skills being put to use. To build for the sake of what we love, rather than everything being about money (unlike an actual job to pay the bills with etc.).
sure, I've done design work for charities for free before. But don't kid yourself here; TL can pay, they're a for-profit organisation, and it's simply exploitation of a dedicated community to even pitch a volunteer position here.
That is assuming they don't follow up on compensation in the future. And assuming they have malicious intents. Frankly, I think it's a far reach assuming such things about TL.net, of all things. And I honestly doubt there's too much money to spare, at the very least to the BW-section.
But to be fair, I don't know TL's economical situation and won't claim for certain. I reckon we're both just assuming, but our perception of their intentions are different.
@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs.
If I applied to write here, I'd do it out of the love of the game and with a desire to build the community. That would be the reward, and any chance to f.ex. get free tickets to events and such to cover it would be seen as a great bonus. It'd be done in my freetime, as part of a hobby. I don't see how it could devalue, when the alternative would be to have nothing at all, since there's practically no money for it in the first place.
I agree on not being taken advantage of. But I feel this is quite the wrong place to take that fight. Some people would build a house for free, give materials for free, make an app for free, assuming it was for a certain cause. For those applying here, BW is one such cause. If anything, it's more a fantastic resource for the community having such skills being put to use. To build for the sake of what we love, rather than everything being about money (unlike an actual job to pay the bills with etc.).
sure, I've done design work for charities for free before. But don't kid yourself here; TL can pay, they're a for-profit organisation, and it's simply exploitation of a dedicated community to even pitch a volunteer position here.
That is assuming they don't follow up on compensation in the future. And assuming they have malicious intents. Frankly, I think it's a far reach assuming such things about TL.net, of all things. And I honestly doubt there's too much money to spare, at the very least to the BW-section.
But to be fair, I don't know TL's economical situation and won't claim for certain. I reckon we're both just assuming, but our perception of their intentions are different.
regardless of intent, it's still spec work (except worse because normally with spec work you know you'll get paid if it's used) - https://www.nospec.com/ - and it's unethical.
@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs.
If I applied to write here, I'd do it out of the love of the game and with a desire to build the community. That would be the reward, and any chance to f.ex. get free tickets to events and such to cover it would be seen as a great bonus. It'd be done in my freetime, as part of a hobby. I don't see how it could devalue, when the alternative would be to have nothing at all, since there's practically no money for it in the first place.
I agree on not being taken advantage of. But I feel this is quite the wrong place to take that fight. Some people would build a house for free, give materials for free, make an app for free, assuming it was for a certain cause. For those applying here, BW is one such cause. If anything, it's more a fantastic resource for the community having such skills being put to use. To build for the sake of what we love, rather than everything being about money (unlike an actual job to pay the bills with etc.).
sure, I've done design work for charities for free before. But don't kid yourself here; TL can pay, they're a for-profit organisation, and it's simply exploitation of a dedicated community to even pitch a volunteer position here.
That is assuming they don't follow up on compensation in the future. And assuming they have malicious intents. Frankly, I think it's a far reach assuming such things about TL.net, of all things. And I honestly doubt there's too much money to spare, at the very least to the BW-section.
But to be fair, I don't know TL's economical situation and won't claim for certain. I reckon we're both just assuming, but our perception of their intentions are different.
regardless of intent, it's still spec work (except worse because normally with spec work you know you'll get paid if it's used) - https://www.nospec.com/ - and it's unethical.
Would it also be spec work if they asked for people to help set up scenes and such to host an event? Or have someone organize online tournaments and sit hours upon hours answering questions, making brackets and such?
They give no promise of compensation. They clearly state there's only a chance, and that the main reason to apply here is if you love what you do, and the game, enough to spend all that time doing it simply for the passion of it. There's no competition with the promise of a reward - only an application to be recruited. Not hired. No money.
I feel you're stretching it a bit too far. I mean, yes, there's money - but how much do you get set aside to a game as small as BW, when they have 13/14 other squads to pay? And how will there ever be an interest to spend more money here, if there's no content being produced and consumed? Paid work like that is simply unrealistic in a community such as ours. But look at f.ex. BSL - ZZZero and his team have done a LOT of free work organizing it. With their free work and their content, Blizzard shows up and starts throwing money at them. That's how something like this works. I assume you know it, but you see how it's necessary for TL to do it this way for BW coverage, don't you?
Lastly, I apologize if this is derailing the thread. This will be my last post regarding the matter for the sake of the thread (not giving the siltent treatment or anything, so I'll read whatever you reply and such, even if I don't respond anymore) =)
Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
@Garrl You are solely mistaken. Maybe it's because you didn't read the post carefully, but "there is a chance for compensation in the future" for writers. Depending on the amount of work done by gfx artist, there is also a good chance for them too. I can't comment much further though, aside from saying that this isn't as volunteer work as one thinks. On that note, if someone enjoys writing or making graphics for their favourite hobby, there's no better place for displaying that than on TL where it would be shared with a passionate community. Not everything has to revolve around money mate. How do you think most people in staff started? They started because they wanted their favourite game to get the best coverage or graphics it possibly can, and through those connections, they have managed to experience things that only a few people in esports can. Furthermore, for someone who wants to become a writer, or wants to have a portfolio, being able to work hard at your craft, and show your work can help you land other jobs in the future. Anyways, I've said enough at this point.
oh, I read the post. I'm a graphic designer so I'm well aware that "chance of compensation" means nothing; you'll still be doing work for free under the guise of "gaining exposure" and "building your portfolio". You wouldn't expect someone to create an app or build a house for free, yet for some reason, the creative industries are 'different', and it's precisely because people do work for free that this devaluation occurs.
If I applied to write here, I'd do it out of the love of the game and with a desire to build the community. That would be the reward, and any chance to f.ex. get free tickets to events and such to cover it would be seen as a great bonus. It'd be done in my freetime, as part of a hobby. I don't see how it could devalue, when the alternative would be to have nothing at all, since there's practically no money for it in the first place.
I agree on not being taken advantage of. But I feel this is quite the wrong place to take that fight. Some people would build a house for free, give materials for free, make an app for free, assuming it was for a certain cause. For those applying here, BW is one such cause. If anything, it's more a fantastic resource for the community having such skills being put to use. To build for the sake of what we love, rather than everything being about money (unlike an actual job to pay the bills with etc.).
sure, I've done design work for charities for free before. But don't kid yourself here; TL can pay, they're a for-profit organisation, and it's simply exploitation of a dedicated community to even pitch a volunteer position here.
That is assuming they don't follow up on compensation in the future. And assuming they have malicious intents. Frankly, I think it's a far reach assuming such things about TL.net, of all things. And I honestly doubt there's too much money to spare, at the very least to the BW-section.
But to be fair, I don't know TL's economical situation and won't claim for certain. I reckon we're both just assuming, but our perception of their intentions are different.
regardless of intent, it's still spec work (except worse because normally with spec work you know you'll get paid if it's used) - https://www.nospec.com/ - and it's unethical.
Would it also be spec work if they asked for people to help set up scenes and such to host an event? Or have someone organize online tournaments and sit hours upon hours answering questions, making brackets and such?
They give no promise of compensation. They clearly state there's only a chance, and that the main reason to apply here is if you love what you do, and the game, enough to spend all that time doing it simply for the passion of it. There's no competition with the promise of a reward - only an application to be recruited. Not hired. No money.
I feel you're stretching it a bit too far. I mean, yes, there's money - but how much do you get set aside to a game as small as BW, when they have 13/14 other squads to pay? And how will there ever be an interest to spend more money here, if there's no content being produced and consumed? Payed work like that is simply unrealistic in a community such as ours. But look at f.ex. BSL - ZZZero and his team have done a LOT of free work organizing it. With their free work and their content, Blizzard shows up and starts throwing money at them. That's how something like this works. I assume you know it, but you see how it's necessary for TL to do it this way for BW coverage, don't you?
Lastly, I apologize if this is derailing the thread. This will be my last post regarding the matter for the sake of the thread (not giving the siltent treatment or anything, so I'll read whatever you reply and such, even if I don't respond anymore) =)
No, it's fine. Post as much as you like. This topic comes up every time there is any kind of recruitment post on this site, and it's always the same points. No one seems to consider the state of the site, or the fact that the BW community is so small that unless people work hard at helping out, there'll be no coverage or anything. It's why contributors are valued highly on the site, because these guys are putting in their time to keep the game going on their passion. If you aren't passionate enough, or don't believe this is for you since you believe it devalues your work, that's fine.
After all, this is meant to be a fun experience, being at the forefront of BW coverage and all. You can also quit any time you like, so long as you let us know, because imagine quitting right before something major. There is a chance for compensation, because you need to be staffed before we can even discuss that stuff. In other words, you have to show that you are capable, and help out before you get that nice icon. Ironically, this sounds like some kind of brutal process, but it's pretty straight forward and most folks know if they want to continue or not after they join.
I saw someone mentioning Chill getting paid and such. I'm not really sure on the details there, sorry!
On October 18 2018 20:42 kaboombaby wrote: Wasn't this a paid staff responsibility in the days of old? Surprising to see tl going the "free exposure" route on a call for creatives. Really confused about this, especially after listening to all the Chill/staff interviews way back hearing him describe getting paid for a lot of work along these lines.
It still is. Just means there's a trial period and the actual compensation isn't enough to live on. But if you're someone who's new to the industry or just want to spend some time working on a hobby (and making some pocket cash), it's a good opportunity. Several good writers from this site like stuchiu and Fionn have gone on to do great things. Several others like monk and Heyoka found amazing opportunities in the industry through the contacts they made doing work for TL.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
Hey if Gecko wants to shitpost he can suffer the consequences
But seriously, the budgets for the pro team and our community sites are entirely seperate. It is no secret that Team Liquid the pro team is doing very well, but TLnet the website has a way, way smaller budget.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
Yes, you are making a big assumption here with that link. Anyone who carefully reads this post of yours should come to the realization that the community site and the proteam are two separate entities, and no, the community site does not have $200 million to spare, nor did it raise $26 million for the company this year. I mean, seriously, are you reading what you write?
On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
As for the ban, KBB pulled it on his own, because you know, he is the guy who has run the moderation team, and kept the site damn clean for 5+ years so I'd hope he knows what he's doing. But seeing as you want more details, sure, the post was terrible because we ban for image memes on here. It's a rule that been around for a long time, and I'm pretty sure that Gecko is aware of it. In other words, no, this doesn't work against my argument.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
Yes, you are making a big assumption here with that link. Anyone who carefully reads this post of yours should come to the realization that the community site and the proteam are two separate entities, and no, the community site does not have $200 million to spare, nor did it raise $26 million for the company this year. I mean, seriously, are you reading what you write?
On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
As for the ban, KBB pulled it on his own, because you know, he is the guy who has run the moderation team, and kept the site damn clean for 5+ years so I'd hope he knows what he's doing. But seeing as you want more details, sure, the post was terrible because we ban for image memes on here. It's a rule that been around for a long time, and I'm pretty sure that Gecko is aware of it. In other words, no, this doesn't work against my argument.
I don't mean to interject but then the question is why does an organization with such funds not devote some of it to the BW community/forums? I'm well aware that you probably can't answer this question in detail, but I think that this is underlying frustration for some of the users who have responded here (not me, for the record - I can empathize, though).
I mean, Chillindude has a sponsorship from TL, so like...
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
I am not saying that or knowing if people are exploited for their work here on TL.
However "compensation is possible" is the 101 of exploiting people, especially in the creative department where money is normally scarce. Directly followed by "prove yourself first". That is not a job I would take in any industry if I was not really desperate. You do not start working without compensation in any normal job.
I have no illusions about the money that is floating around in BW - it probably is mostly non-existent.
However, the constant recruitment of volunteers (not only in the BW section!) for me is the most irritating thing about TL since it has become a for profit company. I wholeheartedly despise it.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
I am not saying that or knowing if people are exploited for their work here on TL.
However "compensation is possible" is the 101 of exploiting people, especially in the creative department where money is normally scarce. Directly followed by "prove yourself first". That is not a job I would take in any industry if I was not really desperate. You do not start working without compensation in any normal job.
I have no illusions about the money that is floating around in BW - it probably is mostly non-existent.
However, the constant recruitment of volunteers (not only in the BW section!) for me is the most irritating thing about TL since it has become a for profit company. I wholeheartedly despise it.
I think the message they are sending is that if there are no volunteers, there will be no BW section or at least no BW content. So it's either volunteers or nothing.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
I am not saying that or knowing if people are exploited for their work here on TL.
However "compensation is possible" is the 101 of exploiting people, especially in the creative department where money is normally scarce. Directly followed by "prove yourself first". That is not a job I would take in any industry if I was not really desperate. You do not start working without compensation in any normal job.
I have no illusions about the money that is floating around in BW - it probably is mostly non-existent.
However, the constant recruitment of volunteers (not only in the BW section!) for me is the most irritating thing about TL since it has become a for profit company. I wholeheartedly despise it.
I think we're missing the point here. This isn't a job, it's a hobby. That you still get paid for.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
I am not saying that or knowing if people are exploited for their work here on TL.
However "compensation is possible" is the 101 of exploiting people, especially in the creative department where money is normally scarce. Directly followed by "prove yourself first". That is not a job I would take in any industry if I was not really desperate. You do not start working without compensation in any normal job.
I have no illusions about the money that is floating around in BW - it probably is mostly non-existent.
However, the constant recruitment of volunteers (not only in the BW section!) for me is the most irritating thing about TL since it has become a for profit company. I wholeheartedly despise it.
I think the message they are sending is that if there are no volunteers, there will be no BW section or at least no BW content. So it's either volunteers or nothing.
nothing will go away, the reason we're asking for help is that we want to be able to do more, even if by the end of this nothing comes out of it we will continue in our current scale of operations.
I'll carry this section on my own if I have to, but please lets not have it come to that.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
I am not saying that or knowing if people are exploited for their work here on TL.
However "compensation is possible" is the 101 of exploiting people, especially in the creative department where money is normally scarce. Directly followed by "prove yourself first". That is not a job I would take in any industry if I was not really desperate. You do not start working without compensation in any normal job.
I have no illusions about the money that is floating around in BW - it probably is mostly non-existent.
However, the constant recruitment of volunteers (not only in the BW section!) for me is the most irritating thing about TL since it has become a for profit company. I wholeheartedly despise it.
I think the message they are sending is that if there are no volunteers, there will be no BW section or at least no BW content. So it's either volunteers or nothing.
nothing will go away, the reason we're asking for help is that we want to be able to do more, even if by the end of this nothing comes out of it we will continue in our current scale of operations.
I'll carry this section on my own if I have to, but please lets not have it come to that.
I didn't mean no volunteers out of this draft, I meant no volunteers period, but yea. Rawr fighting!
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
Yes, you are making a big assumption here with that link. Anyone who carefully reads this post of yours should come to the realization that the community site and the proteam are two separate entities, and no, the community site does not have $200 million to spare, nor did it raise $26 million for the company this year. I mean, seriously, are you reading what you write?
On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
As for the ban, KBB pulled it on his own, because you know, he is the guy who has run the moderation team, and kept the site damn clean for 5+ years so I'd hope he knows what he's doing. But seeing as you want more details, sure, the post was terrible because we ban for image memes on here. It's a rule that been around for a long time, and I'm pretty sure that Gecko is aware of it. In other words, no, this doesn't work against my argument.
I don't mean to interject but then the question is why does an organization with such funds not devote some of it to the BW community/forums? I'm well aware that you probably can't answer this question in detail, but I think that this is underlying frustration for some of the users who have responded here (not me, for the record - I can empathize, though).
I mean, Chillindude has a sponsorship from TL, so like...
Business 101, budget is allocated as investment on return. While TL.net provides significant value as a community site, it runs more or less on a deficit, whereas the pro team is where all the money is made. In any case, a very large majority of the money SHOULD be allocated to the players and allowing the pro team to continue functioning. So TL.net's budget is very low compared to the pro team. It can seem like TL has unlimited money to throw at things, but as a functioning business, you can't just throw tons of money at stuff without a means of getting a return on your investment.
Full transparency, I've made sure that the writers in the Heroes section earn at least $35/article (about $0.05/word), which is an industry minimum. Every writer still goes through a trial period of 3 articles to ensure that we're getting people who are dedicated to working with us and improving. That said, $35/article is still way too low to be considered anything but a volunteer job. We're intentionally trying not to misrepresent these roles as something you can make a living off of.
EDIT: That's about as far as I should dig into TL.net's financials. I will just say that from my experience, TL.net has been unbelievably accommodating. As a part time job being involved in the esports community, this group is the best.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
On top of that, you have the audacity to state that we aren't paying people when it's clearly stated in the OP that compensation is possible, and as John and myself explained several posts above, is dependent upon being staffed. Aka, show your competence at your craft, and you'll get something and other opportunities too. So please, do me a favour and don't jump into a conversation without having the correct information like that other fellow from earlier.
I am not saying that or knowing if people are exploited for their work here on TL.
However "compensation is possible" is the 101 of exploiting people, especially in the creative department where money is normally scarce. Directly followed by "prove yourself first". That is not a job I would take in any industry if I was not really desperate. You do not start working without compensation in any normal job.
I have no illusions about the money that is floating around in BW - it probably is mostly non-existent.
However, the constant recruitment of volunteers (not only in the BW section!) for me is the most irritating thing about TL since it has become a for profit company. I wholeheartedly despise it.
I think the message they are sending is that if there are no volunteers, there will be no BW section or at least no BW content. So it's either volunteers or nothing.
nothing will go away, the reason we're asking for help is that we want to be able to do more, even if by the end of this nothing comes out of it we will continue in our current scale of operations.
I'll carry this section on my own if I have to, but please lets not have it come to that.
I didn't mean no volunteers out of this draft, I meant no volunteers period, but yea. Rawr fighting!
I'd really like to not think about a situation like that...
@Jealous @Malinor I mean, John did a great job of explaining it, but let's take a real life scenario for instance. At some places, you have to do unpaid training for the job to measure your proficiency. Only after you've done this well do they provide a salary or wage, and give you shifts. It's much like was mentioned, the purpose of "compensation is possible" is to state that there is a chance to make something, but you won't be able to live off this either.
On October 18 2018 22:35 EsportsJohn wrote: Nothing presumptuous about hiring volunteers. The TL we know today wouldn't exist without volunteers. Hell, even half the work that's done on this website (liquipedia, info from Korea, tournament organization, etc) is done for free right now. And it's not like Victor or Steve are heading a big coverage section and just exploiting people...the people in charge of these writing sections are the volunteers doing this out of a labor of love.
I don't have a bottom line, but even at a minimum amount of money per article paying over 60 writers across all sections of the site, TL.net's budget is going to be significantly thinned, and that's not including the full-time graphics artists, programmer(s), and heads of each section. Or Liquipedia. Or the website they bought earlier this year (Master League). And that's just the community site; we're not even talking about salary for the players, org infrastructure (payroll, managers, coaches, the TL chef, etc), travel costs, overhead, or maintenance.
The sort of narrative that TL exploits volunteers is an old and incredibly uninformed opinion, and honestly, I'm getting tired of seeing it every time one of these gets posted.
As someone who poured tens of thousands of hours into BW back in the 2000s co-running WGTour on a volunteer basis before eSports blew up, this is such a bullshit response, particularly in light of the news that TL's parent company raised $26 million this year in funding. It's 2018, not 2008 - the industry has changed.
That's nice and all, but if you have no idea about the current financial state of the TL community site aside from a link, please don't make such random assumptions.
That's nice and all, but I didn't make any assumptions. That link was to provide context to the situation at hand. Not to mention, "Forbes recently valued the organization at $200 million--the third highest among esports teams" yet y'all can't afford to pay your own writers/artists on a community site that was essential in TL's development and rise as an organization. Garrl had it right and temp banning Gecko does nothing to support your argument.
I AM IMMORTAL
It was meant as depiction how silly this debate is Either contribute cause u like it Or do something better If u cant, stop crying
Imagine equating the entire teamliquid organization and their success/profits with the tl.net side which hardly does anything for the TL organization as a whole. lol.
On October 27 2018 05:06 Geo.Rion wrote: edit:wrong thread, sorry
Actually, you couldn't be more spot on with anything you said. This is a huge pile 'o shit You think you earn some money for the gibberish you spew on the internet? Really? Have a go and join what we call "des tätowierte hendl" in germany. Try it. Go on. I dare ya.
I'm literally the first one to shout come out ye black an tans and fight me like a man!.
So, here I am. Tell me what you did, you focking potato. Tell me how you're better than the news coverage. Dance, dance you shite. Dance the potato Mr. DKnight, dance it.
Yea, everyone should respect their own abilities and art, but let's leave it to the applicants to decide, shall we? I'm considering sending an application for a writer, worst case scenario - I don't get it. Mind you, I'm 30 and I have a serious full-time job.
Doing stuff like that, "exposing" the exploitative nature of TL so people won't apply, is simply not proper. The site makes openings for such positions, they set the rules, everyone is free to choose if they apply or not. Then they can personally negotiate the conditions, and are free to accept or reject. Simple as it is. What TL do with their own budget is their own prerogative. What we do about the openings is our prerogative.
EPT
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VANT36.5 National Starleague
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