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On May 20 2017 07:30 jalstar wrote:
It sounds like the remappable hotkeys are only the ones that varied by which language your version of BW was in. Since those weren't uniform among the player base anyway it's fine to let people remap them.
Consider that there was no language that let you map every upgrade, skill, command, and spell into QWEASDZXC
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great decision on keeping f keys and control groups non rebindable!
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On May 20 2017 07:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 07:07 KrOjah wrote:On May 20 2017 06:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS. Maybe you don't like rts games then? As soon as there is a real time component to the game you will be able to get an advantage by being faster. The gap can be decreased ofc, but then the game will be rather boring to play because there isn't much to do in this real time. Why not just play round based strategy at that point? I most admit I prefer macro based button mashing RTS games, but not every RTS is like bw, Sc2 or AoE2. Your reasoning could also be applied to just about any other real time game (the vast majority of competitive games are real time) Well yes it can be applied to any real time game. You totally can make sure that the lvl of advantage you get from that is lower, but as i said i think that directly makes the game more bland as an effect. Also this logic of "hey i wanna outsmart my opponent and thus starcraft is bad for that" is not true to begin with. Matchmaking makes sure that you play against people on a similar skill lvl. Most of the skill lvl is due to mechanics. At that point you actually kinda need to outsmart your opponent again because nobody has an actual advantage in mechanics anymore. If you want "deeper" strategy then i would argue most other rts games aren't really that great either. Round based strategy is where you need to go when you actually want to plan things without execution.
Yes I actually agree with you overall and in real time games in general speed is a big factor, whether in short bursts, or more constant APM requirements like macro based RTS. I didn't mean for it to come off as a negative.
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19533 Posts
On May 20 2017 07:24 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 04:10 BigFan wrote:On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby. how about no? Strong argument here.
There is no strong argument for it either.
On May 20 2017 07:41 KrOjah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 07:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 20 2017 07:07 KrOjah wrote:On May 20 2017 06:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS. Maybe you don't like rts games then? As soon as there is a real time component to the game you will be able to get an advantage by being faster. The gap can be decreased ofc, but then the game will be rather boring to play because there isn't much to do in this real time. Why not just play round based strategy at that point? I most admit I prefer macro based button mashing RTS games, but not every RTS is like bw, Sc2 or AoE2. Your reasoning could also be applied to just about any other real time game (the vast majority of competitive games are real time) Well yes it can be applied to any real time game. You totally can make sure that the lvl of advantage you get from that is lower, but as i said i think that directly makes the game more bland as an effect. Also this logic of "hey i wanna outsmart my opponent and thus starcraft is bad for that" is not true to begin with. Matchmaking makes sure that you play against people on a similar skill lvl. Most of the skill lvl is due to mechanics. At that point you actually kinda need to outsmart your opponent again because nobody has an actual advantage in mechanics anymore. If you want "deeper" strategy then i would argue most other rts games aren't really that great either. Round based strategy is where you need to go when you actually want to plan things without execution. Yes I actually agree with you overall and in real time games in general speed is a big factor, whether in short bursts, or more constant APM requirements like macro based RTS. I didn't mean for it to come off as a negative.
Oh no you didn't come off as negative i just expanded a bit on it, sry 
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Y'all post-ptr younglings won't know the struggle and skill needed to sift through that huge list of hotkeys, some of which was random shit from the alpha, in order to remap to that dream layout that you'd have visualized in your imagination. That really built character.
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this is so great for me, I've built bad habits from my custom binds in SC2, I am very happy I don't have to use a 3rd party app to rebind keys
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On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS.
You can win with 150 apm, I have seen Testie currently and other former pro gamers not have what you call "fast hands" and still win games due to the their prioritization and proper army control, its not about how much although speed helps its about how you use that apm
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Awesome. I don't want the game to be changed much, but I think it really needs this. Everyone has different control preferences and should be able to play comfortably. This will make the game easier to play, but it also means that pros will be able to do more and showcase more of the beauty of the game. I think that can only be a good thing.
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On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player.
Remapable hotkeys does affect game play. They can also potentially give an advantage to player, but it is not unfair because everyone has the same access to them. Yes, a player who can do gymnastics with their hands is more skilled than a person who cannot.
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On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player.
Actually I'd say that 90% of Brood War at levels B on iccup or lower (so 99.9% of the people who play BW), the speed of how quick you can mindlessly click buttons is what determines the winner. It's the reality of the game, there's a lot of satisfaction to perfect your mechanics, in the same way that things like Rubik's Cube competitions are a thing.
Everyone having the same hotkeys is kind of nice, the analogy I quite like is: Everyone gets the same car, and you have a race, the winner of the race will likely be the one with the best driving skill. Now I think of remapped hotkeys as now being able to change the gear ratios of your car, choose your tires, pit strategy, height of car, etc. Now if these cars race, it's possible that the winner will be the one who had a more optimal car setup, and not necessarily be the best driver.
These hotkeys add a similar element, by playing with the settings that really imo doesn't have anything to do with BW, you are more efficient with the keyboard than someone else with default keys, even though the default key person has faster hand speed. So at the end of the day, I think the winner of the game should be determined by their mechanics, decision making, tactics, etc, etc... And not by things like mouse, monitor refresh rate, custom keyboard layouts or remapped keys, different graphics settings, and so forth.
I think this is a fairly legitimate argument of people being against hotkeys, and hence why I support the notion of giving an option to view if the player is using default keys or custom ones. There are legitimate reasons why people feel this way, it's not an illogical nostalgia thing, and appealing to those as well by adding a simple feature like this would go a long way.
edit: Also I'm very disappointed by BigFan's posting in this thread, any non moderator would have been warned there. Makes my lone warning in a long time received from him sting even more, that someone with this posting warns others for thought out and detailed posts.
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On May 20 2017 08:37 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player. Everyone having the same hotkeys is kind of nice, the analogy I quite like is: Everyone gets the same car, and you have a race, the winner of the race will likely be the one with the best driving skill. Now I think of remapped hotkeys as now being able to change the gear ratios of your car, choose your tires, pit strategy, height of car, etc. Now if these cars race, it's possible that the winner will be the one who had a more optimal car setup, and not necessarily be the best driver.
This is a good and fair analogy, and there will most certainly be key setups that are more optimized than others. And as you said, it's possible that the winner will be the one who had a more optimal setup. But I don't think this will happen. Competitive players will just simply switch over and use such setups if they exist, and ultimately everyone will still be on an equal playing field. Advantages in raw hand speed will still play a factor and still allow a player to perform actions more quickly than his opponent. This feature will not make mechanical skill disappear as a deciding factor in victory.
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I dont know if this is beeing discused somewhere else, but anyone has any idea if the will the customizable hotkeys be available for 1.18 ?
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On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player.
The difficulty of reaching f keys is the reason why they're hard to use, it's common sense. Same thing applies for control groups, reaching all the way to 7/8/9/0 is hard but necessary if you want to be a high lvl player. Same thing for patrol, the difficulty of reaching the P key is why patrol micro is hard to execute, those are all keyboard mechanics that have an impact on gameplay (i.e: micro/macro).
You need to train yourself in order to be able to use those keys efficiently, it's like an obstacle or a challenge that you have to overcome in order to reach a higher level of play.
Hard to reach alphabetical keys (unit hotkeys) don't have an impact on micro and they dont impact macro at higher levels (progamers don't have an issue hitting P for probes or M for marines, only lower lvl players do). That being said even at the highest level of play theres a separation between players when it comes to f-key usage/control group usage and stuff like muta micro/vulture micro (patrol key usage). Those keys have an impact on gameplay as opposed to unit hotkeys.
I hope they reconsider having Patrol/Hold Position/Move as rebindable keys but i feel like the current system is a good compromise between the oldschool hard liners and the newschoolers who want to give a BW a try. It lowers the barrier of entry while still maintaining the integrity of the game, imo.
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Now it's easier for me to do spam manner pylons
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United States12252 Posts
What do you think TT1, do you see value in just reassigning Patrol to A and just patrol-moving everywhere?
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On May 20 2017 10:26 Excalibur_Z wrote:
What do you think TT1, do you see value in just reassigning Patrol to A and just patrol-moving everywhere?
Could cause a lot of unnecessary mistakes, patrol micro isnt useful in every situation so having it instead on A isn't really necessary. Protoss for example dont use patrol at all, it's only really needed for muta and vulture micro. Having it on E (or whichever key you're comfortable with) is reasonable enough.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 20 2017 07:24 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 04:10 BigFan wrote:On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby. how about no? Strong argument here.
I figured that it should be pretty obvious to tell why this is a terrible idea so I merely voiced my own quick thought on it.
On May 20 2017 08:37 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player. edit: Also I'm very disappointed by BigFan's posting in this thread, any non moderator would have been warned there. Makes my lone warning in a long time received from him sting even more, that someone with this posting warns others for thought out and detailed posts.
You got warned for lack of sources because you were making up numbers and promoting Islamophobia in the politics thread. Remind me again how my post above and what you posted are even similar. If you have issues with moderation, take it to website feedback and leave this thread be.
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As someone who's played and been around high level athletics one of the keys to its success is the standardization of the tools allowed on the playing field. NOT the customization of those tools. There is a reason all baseball / mma / boxing gloves have a standardized norm. There is a reason each football / basketball at the highest levels have standardized air pressure. It's all in an effort to level, and standardize the playing field so everyone is using the same tools.
Unfortunately I feel custom hotkeys is a step backwards for the big picture of e-sports main stream growth but it is the easy decision from a marketing perspective. If stabilization of StarCraft as an e-sport going into the future was their goal then a locked in unchangable keys across all the different languages imo would have been best.
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On May 20 2017 10:59 NerO wrote:
As someone who's played and been around high level athletics one of the keys to its success is the standardization of the tools allowed on the playing field. NOT the customization of those tools. There is a reason all baseball / mma / boxing gloves have a standardized norm. There is a reason each football / basketball at the highest levels have standardized air pressure. It's all in an effort to level, and standardize the playing field so everyone is using the same tools.
Unfortunately I feel custom hotkeys is a step backwards for the big picture of e-sports main stream growth but it is the easy decision from a marketing perspective. If stabilization of StarCraft as an e-sport going into the future was their goal then a locked in unchangable keys across all the different languages imo would have been best.
Uh I feel the sports analogy breaks down pretty quick. Every athlete has custom equipment, like all of them. But as usual, comparing games to athletics is unnecessary and pointless
Custom hot keys means old lazy players like me, and new hopeful players can all play. It grows the player base. Shits tight.
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On May 20 2017 10:49 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 07:24 Jealous wrote:On May 20 2017 04:10 BigFan wrote:On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby. how about no? Strong argument here. I figured that it should be pretty obvious to tell why this is a terrible idea so I merely voiced my own quick thought on it. Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 08:37 FiWiFaKi wrote:On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player. edit: Also I'm very disappointed by BigFan's posting in this thread, any non moderator would have been warned there. Makes my lone warning in a long time received from him sting even more, that someone with this posting warns others for thought out and detailed posts. You got warned for lack of sources because you were making up numbers and promoting Islamophobia in the politics thread. Remind me again how my post above and what you posted are even similar. If you have issues with moderation, take it to website feedback and leave this thread be.
I got warned for giving proper numbers that I backed up in a following post (I think some 3-5 sources to articles because someone asked me where I got the numbers from), and you had an emotional reaction to my post because it was a sensitive issue and didn't agree with my view.
Your posted "how about no" and added nothing else, no explanation or anything, to someone who provided a legitimate opinion (albeit without a detailed explanation), completely disrespectful, and not promoting any form of discussion. Anyway, the bulk of my post was with regards to the topic (interestingly your post was completely in reply to what you said we should not discuss here), but someone called you out on your poor argument, and I wanted to echo that sentiment (happens all the time when someone posts poorly in a thread, myself included), and I suppose I emotionally felt compelled to add my negative past experience with you.
But anyway, I'm done on the subject, apologies that my venting has slowed a bit of the fluidity in the thread. Anyway, I look forward to seeing how it's implemented, I think that most people underestimate the effect this will have in the BW pro scene if it goes through, but only time will tell for sure.
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EPT
