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https://starcraft.com/en-us/articles/20726737
The first implementation of Hotkeys in StarCraft: Remastered during the early 1.18 Public Test Realm (PTR) drew a lot of great feedback and discussion. The Classic Games team took your input to heart, and today we’re excited to unveil the version of Hotkeys you can expect when StarCraft: Remastered comes out this summer. ![[image loading]](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/gallery/DKKQJOV1QKGC1495043053225.png) We paid particular attention to making change-mapping feel more intuitive—no one seemed to enjoy watching streamers spend 30 minutes scrolling through a list of every command in the game. ![[image loading]](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/gallery/62LGQRN9JRQ61495043052857.png) To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable, but we’re happy to report that there will be an option to disable the F1 “Help” menu, ameliorating the need to remove that button from keyboards. ![[image loading]](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/gallery/39YGU7Y5IQKN1495043052831.png) The Classic Games team isn’t done listening! Head over to the StarCraft: Remastered forums to share your thoughts and feedback: Submit Feedback Here!
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Seems fine to me, nothing to complain about imo. I doubt I will change any of the hotkeys just because I am so used to it, but I know it'll be useful for a lot of people.
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Nice, is a must for new players.
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When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby.
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On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby.
haha why? so old koreans can boot people who aren't using legacy? that's ridiculous
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby.
how about no?
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I still remember the initial release of 1.18 and people crying over the fact that hotkey remapping was dead.
lol.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 20 2017 04:14 supernovamaniac wrote:
I still remember the initial release of 1.18 and people crying over the fact that hotkey remapping was dead.
lol.
people are quick to react, much like this whole ZvT imba talk 
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tbf when they removed the feature, it definitely seemed like they'd responded to korean feedback and that it wasnt coming back
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Pretty sure they said they were reworking it from the start.
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Wow this is like a dream come true for an oldschool player like myself...I never would have dreamed all of this would be happening for BW so much later on down the road. Even though I won't be changing any Hotkeys myself, the customization options they are providing are breath taking for someone who was around the Era before Replays... ah the Nostalgia is overwhelming. =P
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On May 20 2017 04:38 jimminy_kriket wrote:
Pretty sure they said they were reworking it from the start.
the language was vague, hence the freakout
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Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have.
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On May 20 2017 04:58 chocorush wrote:
Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have.
Don't tease man. That picture gives zero indication of being able to change F Keys. I'd like to be able to, but not end of world.
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On May 20 2017 05:04 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 04:58 chocorush wrote:
Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have. Don't tease man. That picture gives zero indication of being able to change F Keys. I'd like to be able to, but not end of world.
There is going to be a way to disable F1 key but no way to rebind F keys or control group keys. That's a decision I agree with but I think they could go with the option to choose between F1-F3 or F2-F4 for screen position keys.
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On May 20 2017 05:04 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 04:58 chocorush wrote:
Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have. Don't tease man. That picture gives zero indication of being able to change F Keys. I'd like to be able to, but not end of world.
it explicitly says in the post that they're not touching F or number keys
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But they are letting you disable f1, which for all intents and purposes is good enough for the f-key row.
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Looks good. I wonder if tournaments will allow custom hotkeys.
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On May 20 2017 04:58 chocorush wrote:
Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have.
![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/_iDqJChMzuI/maxresdefault.jpg)
you do realize this is a thing
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Actually as long as it only pertains to unit production + building construction, it might be ok.
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On May 20 2017 05:22 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 04:58 chocorush wrote:
Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have. you do realize this is a thing
i dont think his post could have been any more saturated in sarcasm
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On May 20 2017 05:23 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:22 supernovamaniac wrote:On May 20 2017 04:58 chocorush wrote:
Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have. you do realize this is a thing i dont think his post could have been any more saturated in sarcasm
Not at all, the elitists here couldnt be more serious about this kind of shit
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To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable
It is pretty obvious that the writer has never tried how the original hotkeys work for different races.
They might as well add multiple building selection and unlimited hotkey groups now.
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On May 20 2017 05:35 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable It is pretty obvious that the writer has never tried how the original hotkeys work for different races.
That quote actually confused me. How does that preserve balance? Also how would a control group be "remappable"??? Anyways, why did you think it was obvious? Seemed like a weird statement (the quote, not u) to me
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I think that was the point. Of all things that affect balance, control group and f-rows seems to be way less influential than the other changes. Every race benefits from easier to reach 8-0 keys in more or less the same way.
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On May 20 2017 05:35 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable It is pretty obvious that the writer has never tried how the original hotkeys work for different races. They might as well add multiple building selection and unlimited hotkey groups now.
wait what? You truly believe that instead of clicking M for muta or whatever unit you can think of is going to break balance? Let's pretend it effects it (it won't) you truly believe it'll be as bad as multiple building selection or unlimited hotkey groups? The elitism is so strong.
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On May 20 2017 05:42 blade55555 wrote:
wait what? You truly believe that instead of clicking M for muta or whatever unit you can think of is going to break balance? Let's pretend it effects it (it won't) you truly believe it'll be as bad as multiple building selection or unlimited hotkey groups? The elitism is so strong.
seems the bigger problem is they sound fairly ignorant. Like saying changing fkey remap would affect balance. Really? All races have identical fkey location on keyboard... Changing actual unit hotkeys is actually different between races. Therefor has some effect on balance, albeit probably minuscule effect.
So now there is a slippery slope set up, and changes seem to a bit ignorant... How far will they go? It's a valid concern, even if people around here are also elitist
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United States12230 Posts
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain.
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On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain.
This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case.
So, should I expect the next great foreigner to be NerO assuming you play terran?
On a more serious note, these hotkey changes won't cause much skill level changes and are needed if blizzard wants to market the hand as remastered to the newer gamer generation imo.
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I think easier muta micro is the bigger terror for more people.
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On May 20 2017 05:17 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:04 playa wrote:On May 20 2017 04:58 chocorush wrote:
Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have. Don't tease man. That picture gives zero indication of being able to change F Keys. I'd like to be able to, but not end of world. it explicitly says in the post that they're not touching F or number keys
My bad. Knew I was missing something with his message. I just looked at the pictures, which were self-explanatory and didn't even see that "hidden text."
Competitive balance? Talk about splitting hairs. It's all good, though. I like the idea of BW players maintaining some kind of advantage. Then again, might be biased 
On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case.
I can't say I've ever had an issue with mines or siege mode. Didn't even plan on changing either of those. But, I could definitely see vulture micro becoming a lot easier for those who change patrol.
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I'm looking forward to rebinding patrol and probes, I've always felt so uncomfortable whenever I'm using it. i and o felt fairly natural to me as I've always used i for inventory screens in any game and o for social screens/friends lists, but I've never used p in any of my gaming other than patrol move and probe in starcraft.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 20 2017 05:35 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable It is pretty obvious that the writer has never tried how the original hotkeys work for different races. They might as well add multiple building selection and unlimited hotkey groups now.
i hope you're being sarcastic
sometimes i cant tell
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Not gonna lie, after remapping the camera hotkeys in sc2, it's really hard using F2, F3, and F4 again. They are so far away. Does it really affect balance to let us remap these?
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On May 20 2017 05:59 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case. So, should I expect the next great foreigner to be NerO assuming you play terran?
Never... but don't rule out me swinging the protoss hammer on the next great foreign terran. ^^ ~for aiur
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So many people talking bullshit about hotkeys and how its catering to the noobs. I know that people played online qualifiers for the national offline WCG national qualifier tournament with custom keys. I know that enough ex nationalteam members used doxstar or keycraft and I know even more people who changed the the hotkeys from one language to another because it would fit them better than the original language hotkey layout they had.
I dont see any reason at all to not implement it, people who would want to change the hotkeys would be able to do it even without ingame options. This way everyone has the possibility to do it without spending 1 day messing around with editors gamefiles and google.
Finally. if really enough people think that custom hotkeys will enable people to jump from D to B or C to A they might create tournaments where they jsut forbid custom hotkeys (maybe with face and keyboard cam, maybe a keylogger software which scans input while starcraft is opened or whatever solutions).
Everything that will encourage people to play SC/BW without messing with ingame balance (like MBS or unlimited selction) is a good change.
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On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby.
I think this is a great option. This way everyone is happy, the people who don't like remapping can check that they are on a level playing field if they want to... And nothing is stopping people from remapping.
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On May 20 2017 05:47 TibbersCute wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:42 blade55555 wrote:
wait what? You truly believe that instead of clicking M for muta or whatever unit you can think of is going to break balance? Let's pretend it effects it (it won't) you truly believe it'll be as bad as multiple building selection or unlimited hotkey groups? The elitism is so strong. seems the bigger problem is they sound fairly ignorant. Like saying changing fkey remap would affect balance. Really? All races have identical fkey location on keyboard... Changing actual unit hotkeys is actually different between races. Therefor has some effect on balance, albeit probably minuscule effect. So now there is a slippery slope set up, and changes seem to a bit ignorant... How far will they go? It's a valid concern, even if people around here are also elitist
I don't have a particularly strong opinion either way, but different hotkeys and location hotkeys definitely would affect balance, because they are used differently by different races. Some use them more for whole army movement, some use them mainly for production, etc.
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i feel like hotkey changes are a bigger deal for newer players but don't really matter as much as the level of skill increases, Idk
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United States12230 Posts
So is there any reason to not just remap Patrol to A and make that the default attack-move behavior? People attack-move so much as it is with high APM that I don't think you'd actually be missing anything.
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I think I'm misunderstanding something, but patrol would get your units back after they reach the attack move location...
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They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS.
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Time to rebind tilde!
I like it for hotkey 8.
`a1a2a
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On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS.
Mechanical skill is part of the strategy, as is multitasking and maintaining production.
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On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
All these stuff mess with the fundamentals of the game. Even in the (<1%) chance that balance falls in the same place, the gameplay would be vastly different. That's not what BW:R is about (according to Blizzard, not me)
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On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS.
Maybe you don't like rts games then? As soon as there is a real time component to the game you will be able to get an advantage by being faster. The gap can be decreased ofc, but then the game will be rather boring to play because there isn't much to do in this real time. Why not just play round based strategy at that point?
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On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS.
Changing the unit limit of hotkeys and allowing MBS are game design decisions that create vastly different types of gameplay not UI improvements. Those are things that are not coming to Brood War so you can safely forget about them.
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On May 20 2017 06:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS. Maybe you don't like rts games then? As soon as there is a real time component to the game you will be able to get an advantage by being faster. The gap can be decreased ofc, but then the game will be rather boring to play because there isn't much to do in this real time. Why not just play round based strategy at that point?
That argument really tilts me. I see it a lot on /r/games and none of these RTS games that do exactly what they think people want have any sort of competitiveness or community.
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On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS.
No they should not make those changes. It sounds like BW is not for you. And you just don't realize it but there is a TON of strategy in BW.
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Dominican Republic611 Posts
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On May 20 2017 07:03 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 06:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS. Maybe you don't like rts games then? As soon as there is a real time component to the game you will be able to get an advantage by being faster. The gap can be decreased ofc, but then the game will be rather boring to play because there isn't much to do in this real time. Why not just play round based strategy at that point? That argument really tilts me. I see it a lot on /r/games and none of these RTS games that do exactly what they think people want have any sort of competitiveness or community.
Yeah you basically have to make sure there isn't much micro and tasks in general. It's really just bland at that point imo. Especially because these games still are way worse strategy wise than any round based strategy game.
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On May 20 2017 06:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS. Maybe you don't like rts games then? As soon as there is a real time component to the game you will be able to get an advantage by being faster. The gap can be decreased ofc, but then the game will be rather boring to play because there isn't much to do in this real time. Why not just play round based strategy at that point?
I most admit I prefer macro based button mashing RTS games, but not every RTS is like bw, Sc2 or AoE2. Your reasoning could also be applied to just about any other real time game (the vast majority of competitive games are real time)
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United States12230 Posts
On May 20 2017 06:43 ortseam wrote:
I think I'm misunderstanding something, but patrol would get your units back after they reach the attack move location...
They would, but what most players do is issue a bunch of short-distance move commands followed by attack-move when they get within a certain range. And that's usually followed by repositioning using more move commands followed by attack-move. Even if you were inattentive, patrol-moving instead would only move your units a short distance away, and even then only when all threats are gone.
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Not being able to change Camera and control group hotkeys is not that big of a deal, you can just create a custom key layout to rebind the numbers or F keys to a place that is suitable.
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On May 20 2017 07:07 KrOjah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 06:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS. Maybe you don't like rts games then? As soon as there is a real time component to the game you will be able to get an advantage by being faster. The gap can be decreased ofc, but then the game will be rather boring to play because there isn't much to do in this real time. Why not just play round based strategy at that point? I most admit I prefer macro based button mashing RTS games, but not every RTS is like bw, Sc2 or AoE2. Your reasoning could also be applied to just about any other real time game (the vast majority of competitive games are real time)
Well yes it can be applied to any real time game. You totally can make sure that the lvl of advantage you get from that is lower, but as i said i think that directly makes the game more bland as an effect.
Also this logic of "hey i wanna outsmart my opponent and thus starcraft is bad for that" is not true to begin with. Matchmaking makes sure that you play against people on a similar skill lvl. Most of the skill lvl is due to mechanics. At that point you actually kinda need to outsmart your opponent again because nobody has an actual advantage in mechanics anymore.
If you want "deeper" strategy then i would argue most other rts games aren't really that great either. Round based strategy is where you need to go when you actually want to plan things without execution.
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On May 20 2017 07:12 leublix wrote:
Not being able to change Camera and control group hotkeys is not that big of a deal, you can just create a custom key layout to rebind the numbers or F keys to a place that is suitable.
spoken like someone who would use steroids to make it in the league.
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Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player.
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On May 20 2017 04:10 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby. how about no?
Strong argument here.
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It sounds like the remappable hotkeys are only the ones that varied by which language your version of BW was in. Since those weren't uniform among the player base anyway it's fine to let people remap them.
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On May 20 2017 07:30 jalstar wrote:
It sounds like the remappable hotkeys are only the ones that varied by which language your version of BW was in. Since those weren't uniform among the player base anyway it's fine to let people remap them.
Consider that there was no language that let you map every upgrade, skill, command, and spell into QWEASDZXC
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great decision on keeping f keys and control groups non rebindable!
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On May 20 2017 07:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 07:07 KrOjah wrote:On May 20 2017 06:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS. Maybe you don't like rts games then? As soon as there is a real time component to the game you will be able to get an advantage by being faster. The gap can be decreased ofc, but then the game will be rather boring to play because there isn't much to do in this real time. Why not just play round based strategy at that point? I most admit I prefer macro based button mashing RTS games, but not every RTS is like bw, Sc2 or AoE2. Your reasoning could also be applied to just about any other real time game (the vast majority of competitive games are real time) Well yes it can be applied to any real time game. You totally can make sure that the lvl of advantage you get from that is lower, but as i said i think that directly makes the game more bland as an effect. Also this logic of "hey i wanna outsmart my opponent and thus starcraft is bad for that" is not true to begin with. Matchmaking makes sure that you play against people on a similar skill lvl. Most of the skill lvl is due to mechanics. At that point you actually kinda need to outsmart your opponent again because nobody has an actual advantage in mechanics anymore. If you want "deeper" strategy then i would argue most other rts games aren't really that great either. Round based strategy is where you need to go when you actually want to plan things without execution.
Yes I actually agree with you overall and in real time games in general speed is a big factor, whether in short bursts, or more constant APM requirements like macro based RTS. I didn't mean for it to come off as a negative.
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On May 20 2017 07:24 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 04:10 BigFan wrote:On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby. how about no? Strong argument here.
There is no strong argument for it either.
On May 20 2017 07:41 KrOjah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 07:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 20 2017 07:07 KrOjah wrote:On May 20 2017 06:59 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS. Maybe you don't like rts games then? As soon as there is a real time component to the game you will be able to get an advantage by being faster. The gap can be decreased ofc, but then the game will be rather boring to play because there isn't much to do in this real time. Why not just play round based strategy at that point? I most admit I prefer macro based button mashing RTS games, but not every RTS is like bw, Sc2 or AoE2. Your reasoning could also be applied to just about any other real time game (the vast majority of competitive games are real time) Well yes it can be applied to any real time game. You totally can make sure that the lvl of advantage you get from that is lower, but as i said i think that directly makes the game more bland as an effect. Also this logic of "hey i wanna outsmart my opponent and thus starcraft is bad for that" is not true to begin with. Matchmaking makes sure that you play against people on a similar skill lvl. Most of the skill lvl is due to mechanics. At that point you actually kinda need to outsmart your opponent again because nobody has an actual advantage in mechanics anymore. If you want "deeper" strategy then i would argue most other rts games aren't really that great either. Round based strategy is where you need to go when you actually want to plan things without execution. Yes I actually agree with you overall and in real time games in general speed is a big factor, whether in short bursts, or more constant APM requirements like macro based RTS. I didn't mean for it to come off as a negative.
Oh no you didn't come off as negative i just expanded a bit on it, sry
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Y'all post-ptr younglings won't know the struggle and skill needed to sift through that huge list of hotkeys, some of which was random shit from the alpha, in order to remap to that dream layout that you'd have visualized in your imagination. That really built character.
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this is so great for me, I've built bad habits from my custom binds in SC2, I am very happy I don't have to use a 3rd party app to rebind keys
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On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS.
You can win with 150 apm, I have seen Testie currently and other former pro gamers not have what you call "fast hands" and still win games due to the their prioritization and proper army control, its not about how much although speed helps its about how you use that apm
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Awesome. I don't want the game to be changed much, but I think it really needs this. Everyone has different control preferences and should be able to play comfortably. This will make the game easier to play, but it also means that pros will be able to do more and showcase more of the beauty of the game. I think that can only be a good thing.
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On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player.
Remapable hotkeys does affect game play. They can also potentially give an advantage to player, but it is not unfair because everyone has the same access to them. Yes, a player who can do gymnastics with their hands is more skilled than a person who cannot.
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On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player.
Actually I'd say that 90% of Brood War at levels B on iccup or lower (so 99.9% of the people who play BW), the speed of how quick you can mindlessly click buttons is what determines the winner. It's the reality of the game, there's a lot of satisfaction to perfect your mechanics, in the same way that things like Rubik's Cube competitions are a thing.
Everyone having the same hotkeys is kind of nice, the analogy I quite like is: Everyone gets the same car, and you have a race, the winner of the race will likely be the one with the best driving skill. Now I think of remapped hotkeys as now being able to change the gear ratios of your car, choose your tires, pit strategy, height of car, etc. Now if these cars race, it's possible that the winner will be the one who had a more optimal car setup, and not necessarily be the best driver.
These hotkeys add a similar element, by playing with the settings that really imo doesn't have anything to do with BW, you are more efficient with the keyboard than someone else with default keys, even though the default key person has faster hand speed. So at the end of the day, I think the winner of the game should be determined by their mechanics, decision making, tactics, etc, etc... And not by things like mouse, monitor refresh rate, custom keyboard layouts or remapped keys, different graphics settings, and so forth.
I think this is a fairly legitimate argument of people being against hotkeys, and hence why I support the notion of giving an option to view if the player is using default keys or custom ones. There are legitimate reasons why people feel this way, it's not an illogical nostalgia thing, and appealing to those as well by adding a simple feature like this would go a long way.
edit: Also I'm very disappointed by BigFan's posting in this thread, any non moderator would have been warned there. Makes my lone warning in a long time received from him sting even more, that someone with this posting warns others for thought out and detailed posts.
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On May 20 2017 08:37 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player. Everyone having the same hotkeys is kind of nice, the analogy I quite like is: Everyone gets the same car, and you have a race, the winner of the race will likely be the one with the best driving skill. Now I think of remapped hotkeys as now being able to change the gear ratios of your car, choose your tires, pit strategy, height of car, etc. Now if these cars race, it's possible that the winner will be the one who had a more optimal car setup, and not necessarily be the best driver.
This is a good and fair analogy, and there will most certainly be key setups that are more optimized than others. And as you said, it's possible that the winner will be the one who had a more optimal setup. But I don't think this will happen. Competitive players will just simply switch over and use such setups if they exist, and ultimately everyone will still be on an equal playing field. Advantages in raw hand speed will still play a factor and still allow a player to perform actions more quickly than his opponent. This feature will not make mechanical skill disappear as a deciding factor in victory.
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I dont know if this is beeing discused somewhere else, but anyone has any idea if the will the customizable hotkeys be available for 1.18 ?
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On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player.
The difficulty of reaching f keys is the reason why they're hard to use, it's common sense. Same thing applies for control groups, reaching all the way to 7/8/9/0 is hard but necessary if you want to be a high lvl player. Same thing for patrol, the difficulty of reaching the P key is why patrol micro is hard to execute, those are all keyboard mechanics that have an impact on gameplay (i.e: micro/macro).
You need to train yourself in order to be able to use those keys efficiently, it's like an obstacle or a challenge that you have to overcome in order to reach a higher level of play.
Hard to reach alphabetical keys (unit hotkeys) don't have an impact on micro and they dont impact macro at higher levels (progamers don't have an issue hitting P for probes or M for marines, only lower lvl players do). That being said even at the highest level of play theres a separation between players when it comes to f-key usage/control group usage and stuff like muta micro/vulture micro (patrol key usage). Those keys have an impact on gameplay as opposed to unit hotkeys.
I hope they reconsider having Patrol/Hold Position/Move as rebindable keys but i feel like the current system is a good compromise between the oldschool hard liners and the newschoolers who want to give a BW a try. It lowers the barrier of entry while still maintaining the integrity of the game, imo.
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Now it's easier for me to do spam manner pylons
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United States12230 Posts
What do you think TT1, do you see value in just reassigning Patrol to A and just patrol-moving everywhere?
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On May 20 2017 10:26 Excalibur_Z wrote:
What do you think TT1, do you see value in just reassigning Patrol to A and just patrol-moving everywhere?
Could cause a lot of unnecessary mistakes, patrol micro isnt useful in every situation so having it instead on A isn't really necessary. Protoss for example dont use patrol at all, it's only really needed for muta and vulture micro. Having it on E (or whichever key you're comfortable with) is reasonable enough.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 20 2017 07:24 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 04:10 BigFan wrote:On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby. how about no? Strong argument here.
I figured that it should be pretty obvious to tell why this is a terrible idea so I merely voiced my own quick thought on it.
On May 20 2017 08:37 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player. edit: Also I'm very disappointed by BigFan's posting in this thread, any non moderator would have been warned there. Makes my lone warning in a long time received from him sting even more, that someone with this posting warns others for thought out and detailed posts.
You got warned for lack of sources because you were making up numbers and promoting Islamophobia in the politics thread. Remind me again how my post above and what you posted are even similar. If you have issues with moderation, take it to website feedback and leave this thread be.
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As someone who's played and been around high level athletics one of the keys to its success is the standardization of the tools allowed on the playing field. NOT the customization of those tools. There is a reason all baseball / mma / boxing gloves have a standardized norm. There is a reason each football / basketball at the highest levels have standardized air pressure. It's all in an effort to level, and standardize the playing field so everyone is using the same tools.
Unfortunately I feel custom hotkeys is a step backwards for the big picture of e-sports main stream growth but it is the easy decision from a marketing perspective. If stabilization of StarCraft as an e-sport going into the future was their goal then a locked in unchangable keys across all the different languages imo would have been best.
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On May 20 2017 10:59 NerO wrote:
As someone who's played and been around high level athletics one of the keys to its success is the standardization of the tools allowed on the playing field. NOT the customization of those tools. There is a reason all baseball / mma / boxing gloves have a standardized norm. There is a reason each football / basketball at the highest levels have standardized air pressure. It's all in an effort to level, and standardize the playing field so everyone is using the same tools.
Unfortunately I feel custom hotkeys is a step backwards for the big picture of e-sports main stream growth but it is the easy decision from a marketing perspective. If stabilization of StarCraft as an e-sport going into the future was their goal then a locked in unchangable keys across all the different languages imo would have been best.
Uh I feel the sports analogy breaks down pretty quick. Every athlete has custom equipment, like all of them. But as usual, comparing games to athletics is unnecessary and pointless
Custom hot keys means old lazy players like me, and new hopeful players can all play. It grows the player base. Shits tight.
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On May 20 2017 10:49 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 07:24 Jealous wrote:On May 20 2017 04:10 BigFan wrote:On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby. how about no? Strong argument here. I figured that it should be pretty obvious to tell why this is a terrible idea so I merely voiced my own quick thought on it. Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 08:37 FiWiFaKi wrote:On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player. edit: Also I'm very disappointed by BigFan's posting in this thread, any non moderator would have been warned there. Makes my lone warning in a long time received from him sting even more, that someone with this posting warns others for thought out and detailed posts. You got warned for lack of sources because you were making up numbers and promoting Islamophobia in the politics thread. Remind me again how my post above and what you posted are even similar. If you have issues with moderation, take it to website feedback and leave this thread be.
I got warned for giving proper numbers that I backed up in a following post (I think some 3-5 sources to articles because someone asked me where I got the numbers from), and you had an emotional reaction to my post because it was a sensitive issue and didn't agree with my view.
Your posted "how about no" and added nothing else, no explanation or anything, to someone who provided a legitimate opinion (albeit without a detailed explanation), completely disrespectful, and not promoting any form of discussion. Anyway, the bulk of my post was with regards to the topic (interestingly your post was completely in reply to what you said we should not discuss here), but someone called you out on your poor argument, and I wanted to echo that sentiment (happens all the time when someone posts poorly in a thread, myself included), and I suppose I emotionally felt compelled to add my negative past experience with you.
But anyway, I'm done on the subject, apologies that my venting has slowed a bit of the fluidity in the thread. Anyway, I look forward to seeing how it's implemented, I think that most people underestimate the effect this will have in the BW pro scene if it goes through, but only time will tell for sure.
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I guarantee that everyone here who claims they wont rebind their hotkeys, because of how used they are to the current ones...will. Hotkey usage is muscle memory, and muscle memory only takes a few days worth of repetitive actions to build; hell, anyone whos newly integrated f keys or something into their play will know how quickly they can adjust.
Theres a ton of irrational hotkeys in bw and I for one am glad to finally be capable of ridding myself of them.
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Blizzard team is doing a wonderful job, loving the moderate keybindings, new players or not high skilled players will love it. Keep listening do flash, bisu and jaedong, that's a great feedback :D
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Guys I thought the mods on TL were emotionless perfect cyborgs
What do I do with my life now
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People still use lack of APM for why they lose in BW. Sad. If you can't win with around 150 APM, then you don't know what you're doing. When OOV was the best player in the world and had ridiculous win streaks, he was always around 220 APM. If you can't win with considerably less than that vs non Koreans... jesus...
BW takes no more APM than SC 2 does. You just have to actually hotkey stuff, unlike Zergs in GM.
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On May 20 2017 06:26 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby. I think this is a great option. This way everyone is happy, the people who don't like remapping can check that they are on a level playing field if they want to... And nothing is stopping people from remapping.
A level playing field implies that its going to matter
if we're both D rank because mine are mapped and yours arent isnt going to effect anything
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On May 20 2017 11:18 playa wrote:
People still use lack of APM for why they lose in BW. Sad. If you can't win with around 150 APM, then you don't know what you're doing. When OOV was the best player in the world and had ridiculous win streaks, he was always around 220 APM. If you can't win with considerably less than that vs non Koreans... jesus...
BW takes no more APM than SC 2 does. You just have to actually hotkey stuff, unlike Zergs in GM.
BW takes tremendous APM, and it's also a bit deceiving, because you might have 150apm because you're inefficient, for example you might have decent APM because of muta micro, or quickly building many zerglings at once, but when someone like Lancerx plays with 150apm and usually floats top 10 on iccup, his apm if he played like me would be at least 200.
Also protoss is a bit of the exception, I've played with many people on Shieldbattery, and I don't think I've ever seen a B or higher zerg or terran average less than 200apm (of course I only have a sample pool of like 30 people I've played with at that level). If you have lower APM you can try to combat it by playing shorter games, but myself, playing at usually around 140apm, the difference between TT1 and myself is night and day when it comes to trying to manage 4 or 5 bases, even though I know exactly what to do.
Either way, when I started BW my APM was 60, and now it's a lot higher, and I'm still extremely inefficient with my hotkey usage. APM isn't really a hard cap, by playing smarter you will increase your APM significantly. For example by building gateways next to one another you'll build units faster than if they're spread out, and therefore also have higher APM. Hotkeys will tremendously increase APM, etc.
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On May 20 2017 11:08 mOnion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 10:59 NerO wrote:
As someone who's played and been around high level athletics one of the keys to its success is the standardization of the tools allowed on the playing field. NOT the customization of those tools. There is a reason all baseball / mma / boxing gloves have a standardized norm. There is a reason each football / basketball at the highest levels have standardized air pressure. It's all in an effort to level, and standardize the playing field so everyone is using the same tools.
Unfortunately I feel custom hotkeys is a step backwards for the big picture of e-sports main stream growth but it is the easy decision from a marketing perspective. If stabilization of StarCraft as an e-sport going into the future was their goal then a locked in unchangable keys across all the different languages imo would have been best. Uh I feel the sports analogy breaks down pretty quick. Every athlete has custom equipment, like all of them. But as usual, comparing games to athletics is unnecessary and pointless Custom hot keys means old lazy players like me, and new hopeful players can all play. It grows the player base. Shits tight.
right custom equipment like your mouse, keyboard, headset ect. I have a feeling you're just talkin shit about physical sports. There is 110% a direct correlation between the 2, to ignore and discredit that correlation leads me to believe you're a fat slob that's never played anything outside air conditioning.
User was warned for this post
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On May 20 2017 11:19 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 06:26 FiWiFaKi wrote:On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby. I think this is a great option. This way everyone is happy, the people who don't like remapping can check that they are on a level playing field if they want to... And nothing is stopping people from remapping. A level playing field implies that its going to matter if we're both D rank because mine are mapped and yours arent isnt going to effect anything
I think there's a difference, if we go down this route everyone is going to have different short cuts than before and the game will behave differently in subtle ways. I think it's worthwhile to preserve the original keys in some capacity (it can be something as saying legacy keys enabled or something in the lobby when you hover over them, or whatever)... And so when you want to go for the most raw 1v1 gaming experience with some people as I don't know what to call it, a pure test of skill, and minimal out of game optimization (like I mentioned previously, some things you can't account for, like peripherals), then playing with this option would be possible.
I think this would appease to a great extent the people who are against remapping, and the only cost that would be had for the people who do remap keys is some jerk every now and then calling them casuals and acting elitist (maybe I've been spoiled by SB a little bit, but the community is very nice there and I can't see this be any issue of significance). It's a good compromise imo.
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On May 20 2017 11:27 NerO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 11:08 mOnion wrote:On May 20 2017 10:59 NerO wrote:
As someone who's played and been around high level athletics one of the keys to its success is the standardization of the tools allowed on the playing field. NOT the customization of those tools. There is a reason all baseball / mma / boxing gloves have a standardized norm. There is a reason each football / basketball at the highest levels have standardized air pressure. It's all in an effort to level, and standardize the playing field so everyone is using the same tools.
Unfortunately I feel custom hotkeys is a step backwards for the big picture of e-sports main stream growth but it is the easy decision from a marketing perspective. If stabilization of StarCraft as an e-sport going into the future was their goal then a locked in unchangable keys across all the different languages imo would have been best. Uh I feel the sports analogy breaks down pretty quick. Every athlete has custom equipment, like all of them. But as usual, comparing games to athletics is unnecessary and pointless Custom hot keys means old lazy players like me, and new hopeful players can all play. It grows the player base. Shits tight. right custom equipment like your mouse, keyboard, headset ect. I have a feeling you're just talkin shit about physical sports. There is 110% a direct correlation between the 2, to ignore and discredit that correlation leads me to believe you're a fat slob that's never played anything outside air conditioning.
I don't talk shit about sports, I'm an Aggie and I workout at a powerlifting gym. I just think comparing video games and sports is pointless, but that's just me. I only want people to play with
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On May 20 2017 11:27 NerO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 11:08 mOnion wrote:On May 20 2017 10:59 NerO wrote:
As someone who's played and been around high level athletics one of the keys to its success is the standardization of the tools allowed on the playing field. NOT the customization of those tools. There is a reason all baseball / mma / boxing gloves have a standardized norm. There is a reason each football / basketball at the highest levels have standardized air pressure. It's all in an effort to level, and standardize the playing field so everyone is using the same tools.
Unfortunately I feel custom hotkeys is a step backwards for the big picture of e-sports main stream growth but it is the easy decision from a marketing perspective. If stabilization of StarCraft as an e-sport going into the future was their goal then a locked in unchangable keys across all the different languages imo would have been best. Uh I feel the sports analogy breaks down pretty quick. Every athlete has custom equipment, like all of them. But as usual, comparing games to athletics is unnecessary and pointless Custom hot keys means old lazy players like me, and new hopeful players can all play. It grows the player base. Shits tight. right custom equipment like your mouse, keyboard, headset ect. I have a feeling you're just talkin shit about physical sports. There is 110% a direct correlation between the 2, to ignore and discredit that correlation leads me to believe you're a fat slob that's never played anything outside air conditioning.
This post seems pretty uncalled for.
You basically calling this dude a fat slob, pretty shitty thing to say, imo.
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Makes sense from a monetary perspective to introduce keybinds just to SCR
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TLADT24920 Posts
On May 20 2017 11:09 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 10:49 BigFan wrote:On May 20 2017 07:24 Jealous wrote:On May 20 2017 04:10 BigFan wrote:On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby. how about no? Strong argument here. I figured that it should be pretty obvious to tell why this is a terrible idea so I merely voiced my own quick thought on it. On May 20 2017 08:37 FiWiFaKi wrote:On May 20 2017 07:24 MadJack wrote:
Im tired of seeing the amount of unfundamented and outright wrong "Remapable hotkeys affects gameplay and gives an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE to the other player". That statement is so WRONG, and its as ridicolous as trying to refute evolution per say.
You ARE NOT a more skilled player because you can hit a key at the other side of the keyboard with more accuracy than another player. Thats like saying im a better football player than you because i bought the same brand and model of Messi's shoes and you just have standard unknown's brand football shoes. Or a closer example, having the more expensive keyboard/mouse doesnt make you a better starcraft player. edit: Also I'm very disappointed by BigFan's posting in this thread, any non moderator would have been warned there. Makes my lone warning in a long time received from him sting even more, that someone with this posting warns others for thought out and detailed posts. You got warned for lack of sources because you were making up numbers and promoting Islamophobia in the politics thread. Remind me again how my post above and what you posted are even similar. If you have issues with moderation, take it to website feedback and leave this thread be. I got warned for giving proper numbers that I backed up in a following post (I think some 3-5 sources to articles because someone asked me where I got the numbers from), and you had an emotional reaction to my post because it was a sensitive issue and didn't agree with my view. Your posted "how about no" and added nothing else, no explanation or anything, to someone who provided a legitimate opinion (albeit without a detailed explanation), completely disrespectful, and not promoting any form of discussion. Anyway, the bulk of my post was with regards to the topic (interestingly your post was completely in reply to what you said we should not discuss here), but someone called you out on your poor argument, and I wanted to echo that sentiment (happens all the time when someone posts poorly in a thread, myself included), and I suppose I emotionally felt compelled to add my negative past experience with you. But anyway, I'm done on the subject, apologies that my venting has slowed a bit of the fluidity in the thread. Anyway, I look forward to seeing how it's implemented, I think that most people underestimate the effect this will have in the BW pro scene if it goes through, but only time will tell for sure.
Maybe go back and read that long conversation we had in our pms? Either way, I'm not interested in clogging up this thread so this my last post on this subject. Take it to website feedback if you have issues.
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On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case.
See that's what I don't get. So what if you get easier access to hotkeys? All the good players have no problem doing it in the first place so it won't affect balance at higher levels. If you sucked at doing it and it becomes easier it is not going to make you beat better players.
So what if you manage to siege all your tanks but your positioning is bad and end up getting crushed. Or if you suck at laying mines in the first place that it doesn't matter where the mine hotkey is placed. And rebinding patrol key to something else isn't going to make you micro your mutas like JD all of a sudden (most pros use hold position anyway).
Hotkey rebinds have little to no effect on balance. At most it affects gameplay at lower levels which is hardly a concern.
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On May 20 2017 12:10 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case. See that's what I don't get. So what if you get easier access to hotkeys? All the good players have no problem doing it in the first place so it won't affect balance at higher levels. If you sucked at doing it and it becomes easier it is not going to make you beat better players. So what if you manage to siege all your tanks but your positioning is bad and end up getting crushed. Or if you suck at laying mines in the first place that it doesn't matter where the mine hotkey is placed. And rebinding patrol key to something else isn't going to make you micro your mutas like JD all of a sudden (most pros use hold position anyway). Hotkey rebinds have little to no effect on balance. At most it affects gameplay at lower levels which is hardly a concern.
I mean I'm not arguing against rebindable hotkeys here but the time it takes to move your left hand from your army hotkeys over to 'I' or 'P' and back introduces some latency that people would never accept otherwise. Rebinding those hotkeys so you don't have to move your hand will make controlling mech armies easier.
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Patch 1.12 completely ruined BW by allowing you to set rally points with mouse and adding shift-hotkeying. Therefore I call on all self-respecting BW players to downgrade to 1.11, the last version of True Broodwar.
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On May 20 2017 12:45 Zealgoon wrote:
Patch 1.12 completely ruined BW by allowing you to set rally points with mouse and adding shift-hotkeying. Therefore I call on all self-respecting BW players to downgrade to 1.11, the last version of True Broodwar.
lmao, I remember those changes, man I feel old.
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On May 20 2017 05:14 CobaltBlu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:04 playa wrote:On May 20 2017 04:58 chocorush wrote:
Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have. Don't tease man. That picture gives zero indication of being able to change F Keys. I'd like to be able to, but not end of world. There is going to be a way to disable F1 key but no way to rebind F keys or control group keys. That's a decision I agree with but I think they could go with the option to choose between F1-F3 or F2-F4 for screen position keys.
Why make some hotkeys unchangeable? Doesn't make sense to me to pick and choose like that. The community is on board with making the hotkeys customizable... so make them all customizable including control groups and f keys, no?
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1.11 is the purest form of bw
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Remapping hotkeys will not break Broodwar how is this even an issue. I just read 5 pages of garbage. If remapping somehow makes people from SC2 think they'll be god tier in BW, let them come. They'll get stomped, cry and go back to SC2.
BW is not going to come back stronger outside of Korea because of RM. It'll have it's 15min of fame and then people will stop playing it again. The base that still plays it will still play it.
I'm just excited for updated, modern OS and multiplayer support for once. I love 1.18 patch because I can finally host and play games with no issues. Before this ShieldBattery was my only way to play BW with no issues. Before SB it was just years and years of bullshit dealing with Iccup issues.
I'm going to enjoy the new blood while it lasts and then I'll just keep playing the same people that I've always been playing because we're too stubborn to move on. Mostly because BW is still the best RTS ever made and nothing tops it.
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On May 20 2017 12:28 CobaltBlu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 12:10 Dante08 wrote:On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case. See that's what I don't get. So what if you get easier access to hotkeys? All the good players have no problem doing it in the first place so it won't affect balance at higher levels. If you sucked at doing it and it becomes easier it is not going to make you beat better players. So what if you manage to siege all your tanks but your positioning is bad and end up getting crushed. Or if you suck at laying mines in the first place that it doesn't matter where the mine hotkey is placed. And rebinding patrol key to something else isn't going to make you micro your mutas like JD all of a sudden (most pros use hold position anyway). Hotkey rebinds have little to no effect on balance. At most it affects gameplay at lower levels which is hardly a concern. I mean I'm not arguing against rebindable hotkeys here but the time it takes to move your left hand from your army hotkeys over to 'I' or 'P' and back introduces some latency that people would never accept otherwise. Rebinding those hotkeys so you don't have to move your hand will make controlling mech armies easier.
Yeah but "easier" doesn't mean you will be better at doing it. Positioning and micro are much more important factors, I'm pretty sure I'll still get rekt by a better player even if I can siege and mine more easily.
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On May 20 2017 06:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
So is there any reason to not just remap Patrol to A and make that the default attack-move behavior? People attack-move so much as it is with high APM that I don't think you'd actually be missing anything.
patrol doesnt allow for focus fire tho if ur trying to snipe high templar, focus killing worker, i think patrol might just be different for each race.
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United States12230 Posts
On May 20 2017 15:23 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 06:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
So is there any reason to not just remap Patrol to A and make that the default attack-move behavior? People attack-move so much as it is with high APM that I don't think you'd actually be missing anything. patrol doesnt allow for focus fire tho if ur trying to snipe high templar, focus killing worker, i think patrol might just be different for each race.
If you need to focus fire though you can just right-click.
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Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play.
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The UI for this looks clean. I'm glad it seems they're really going through with the hotkeys! SC:R can't come fast enough.
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People complain about everything nowadays. It just baffles me.
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On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case.
This. I played with custom hotkeys during prepatch and I never felt terran being so easy before. My mechanics became better than ever after just 2 days of playing with custom keys. It's way too easy to macro, lay mines, siege, stim, irritiade and emp by using just two keys where you can keep your fingers most of the time.
edit: I also played with custom keys with protoss, but I felt terran benefit from them way more.
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On May 20 2017 15:57 FFW_Rude wrote:
People complain about everything nowadays. It just baffles me.
What is the problem with discussing something that will affect whole BW community? People shouldn't have different opinion than you because 'it baffles you'?
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Goodbye i and o, hello w and e
Goodbye PPPPP, i will never use you again for this game, hello s
thanks god, this is a good feature.
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On May 20 2017 15:42 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 15:23 Shock710 wrote:On May 20 2017 06:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:
So is there any reason to not just remap Patrol to A and make that the default attack-move behavior? People attack-move so much as it is with high APM that I don't think you'd actually be missing anything. patrol doesnt allow for focus fire tho if ur trying to snipe high templar, focus killing worker, i think patrol might just be different for each race. If you need to focus fire though you can just right-click.
yep i totally forgot for some reason
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I left this on Blizzards site:
"I disagree with this addition completely and personally believe that tournaments should ban features like this.
My reasoning is that it completely defeats the standardization of the game and the LOE (level of effort) required to execute specific tasks. For instance, it takes a specific LOE for Terrans to push against Protoss because Terran players currently have to press "o" for siege and "i" for mines as a standard. The LOE required to push is greatly reduced if players can just rebind their hotkeys to "e" for mines and "t" for siege. Another example would be building units. Building units would require a much lower LOE for Terran if you could just rebind Marine to "A" instead of "M". With a standardized game, everybody has to play by the exact same rules. So when we are watching pro games or replays and we are watching players execute specific tasks, it gives us a great sense of astonishment and excitement because we as players are well aware of how complex it is to execute these tasks. All hotkey rebinding does (as I have stated before) is simplify these tasks, thus reducing the level of astonishment and excitement when we watch players execute them. It's no different than watching a player "1a" in SC2 vs watching a player "1a2a3a4a5a6a7a8a9a0a" in Brood War or watching a player press "A" to build a marine vs watching a player press "M" to build a marine while microing marine and medics against mutas; one action requires more LOE thus making the player that puts more into the game benefit from his practice over someone who plays casually. We as long time players (I have played since 1998 after playing a demo of SC from a Computer Gaming World Magazine) like the standardization of the game and would like to keep BW's gameplay 100% as it is today. So, regardless of how "harmless" this addition may seem initially, it ultimately does have a major impact on the current game play.
In conclusion, Brood War survived 20 years without a feature like this. That alone shows that it is not needed. The only real changes that BW needed was a graphics buff, some bug fixes, and a nice match-making/ladder system."
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Speaking of random stuff, did anyone notice they finally renamed the Robotics Support to Robotics Support Bay? People have been calling it the wrong name for years
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On May 20 2017 16:05 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case. This. I played with custom hotkeys during prepatch and I never felt terran being so easy before. My mechanics became better than ever after just 2 days of playing with custom keys. It's way too easy to macro, lay mines, siege, stim, irritiade and emp by using just two keys where you can keep your fingers most of the time. edit: I also played with custom keys with protoss, but I felt terran benefit from them way more.
So will you be able to suddenly beat someone better than you because it's easier to lay mines, siege, stim, irridiate and emp?
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On May 20 2017 16:54 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 16:05 Piste wrote:On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case. This. I played with custom hotkeys during prepatch and I never felt terran being so easy before. My mechanics became better than ever after just 2 days of playing with custom keys. It's way too easy to macro, lay mines, siege, stim, irritiade and emp by using just two keys where you can keep your fingers most of the time. edit: I also played with custom keys with protoss, but I felt terran benefit from them way more. So will you be able to suddenly beat someone better than you because it's easier to lay mines, siege, stim, irridiate and emp?
Yes, suddenly.
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On May 20 2017 16:54 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 16:05 Piste wrote:On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case. This. I played with custom hotkeys during prepatch and I never felt terran being so easy before. My mechanics became better than ever after just 2 days of playing with custom keys. It's way too easy to macro, lay mines, siege, stim, irritiade and emp by using just two keys where you can keep your fingers most of the time. edit: I also played with custom keys with protoss, but I felt terran benefit from them way more. So will you be able to suddenly beat someone better than you because it's easier to lay mines, siege, stim, irridiate and emp?
No, people are just wanting to complain about anything, most probably don't even play or play regularly lol.
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On May 20 2017 16:58 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 16:54 Dante08 wrote:On May 20 2017 16:05 Piste wrote:On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case. This. I played with custom hotkeys during prepatch and I never felt terran being so easy before. My mechanics became better than ever after just 2 days of playing with custom keys. It's way too easy to macro, lay mines, siege, stim, irritiade and emp by using just two keys where you can keep your fingers most of the time. edit: I also played with custom keys with protoss, but I felt terran benefit from them way more. So will you be able to suddenly beat someone better than you because it's easier to lay mines, siege, stim, irridiate and emp? No, people are just wanting to complain about anything, most probably don't even play or play regularly lol.
You're argument is useless, unnecessary and simply incorrect. I was talking about the game and told my observations how hotkey remapping effected my play. But yeah I see that you must make statements about the players when you can't make any useful statements about the game instead.
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On May 20 2017 17:15 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 16:58 GGzerG wrote:On May 20 2017 16:54 Dante08 wrote:On May 20 2017 16:05 Piste wrote:On May 20 2017 05:53 NerO wrote:On May 20 2017 05:47 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I always had serious problems with mech and missing the "i" and "o" keys (for Spider Mines and Siege Mode, respectively). And Patrol-moving was always a pain. This is the immediate balance concern that jumped out at me when I first saw this news. Terran pushes just became a lot easier and more effective if that's the case. This. I played with custom hotkeys during prepatch and I never felt terran being so easy before. My mechanics became better than ever after just 2 days of playing with custom keys. It's way too easy to macro, lay mines, siege, stim, irritiade and emp by using just two keys where you can keep your fingers most of the time. edit: I also played with custom keys with protoss, but I felt terran benefit from them way more. So will you be able to suddenly beat someone better than you because it's easier to lay mines, siege, stim, irridiate and emp? No, people are just wanting to complain about anything, most probably don't even play or play regularly lol. You're argument is useless, unnecessary and simply incorrect. I was talking about the game and told my observations how hotkey remapping effected my play. But yeah I see that you must make statements about the players when you can't make any useful statements about the game instead.
Agreed. I also illustrated valid points that pertained to the game itself.
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Looks good can't wait to use the qwerty M for marines instead of my azerty M.
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in the future i will add Hotkeys configuration to 1.16.1 (mca64Launcher)
Poll: Should be Hotkeys configureable in 1.16.1?YES (30) 67% NO (15) 33% 45 total votes Your vote: Should be Hotkeys configureable in 1.16.1? (Vote): YES
(Vote): NO
also wanna release bundle mca64Launcher + StarCraft (full size) + audio language packs, all integrated with the Launcher. Stay tuned! Need few months
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On May 20 2017 17:23 mca64Launcher_ wrote:in the future i will add Hotkeys configuration to 1.16.1 (mca64Launcher) Poll: Should be Hotkeys configureable in 1.16.1?YES (30) 67% NO (15) 33% 45 total votes Your vote: Should be Hotkeys configureable in 1.16.1? (Vote): YES
(Vote): NO
also wanna release bundle mca64Launcher + StarCraft (full size). Stay tuned! Need few months
I think polls here are useless because you have a lot of new players that will be voting on it who want BW to be more like SC2. The question should be asked to the people that actually kept the game alive for 20 years and not the new comers.
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''To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable, '''
even blizzard understands that remapping controlgroups has a bigger impact on one race/matchup MORE than the other and would effect balance from what it was
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On May 20 2017 16:34 arb wrote:
Speaking of random stuff, did anyone notice they finally renamed the Robotics Support to Robotics Support Bay? People have been calling it the wrong name for years
It was always called Robotics Support Bay in the tooltip in the build menu. It's just called Protoss Robotics Support in the main window thing because the word "Bay" doesn't fit.
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Making all movement keys unrebindable would also peserve more of the same type of skill-based mechanics
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Why do people even discuss the remapable hotkeys :D People have been remapping their hotkeys with 3rd party tools forever or by changing language.
This only makes it fair so that all of us play on equal terms.
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I threw away my F1 key, thanks Blizzard
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"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable"
this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys?
I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, `
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that part makes no sense to you? :D lol
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On May 20 2017 19:19 onlystar wrote:
that part makes no sense to you? :D lol
in what way would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance?
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On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, `
the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? 
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On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything?
it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage.
but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance?
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On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance?
everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem?
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as said before remapping control roups will benifit one build /matchup MORE than the other having sk terran in mind or zerg who always has many unit groups just you can figure this out yourself the 3 races mechanics differ from each other
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On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem?
this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement:
"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable"
player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine.
player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine.
player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand.
player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan.
player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan.
player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand.
why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance.
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edit: no ofcourse not producing a unit or casting a spell does not have the same impact on the game
as having control groups 12345/qwer because this changes how battles are won/lost in a sense races or builds that have alot of control groups get a bigger advantage witch results in upping the winning % of that race/build
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On May 20 2017 19:44 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem? this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement: "To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine. player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine. player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand. player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan. player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan. player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand. why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance.
Players at the highest lvl of play have no issue producing marines or probes, unit hotkeys have no impact on actual gameplay for them (they only do at lower levels). That said there's a separation between players when it comes to f key and control group usage and that has an impact on how someone macros, micros, moves their army around the map/engages battles etc. Hotkey and Fkeys have an impact on gameplay even at the highest level (and so do hotkeys like Patrol which is why a lot of us are against having it be rebindable), unit hotkeys don't.
Being able to change unit hotkeys lowers the entry barrier for newer players without having an impact on the highest level of play. Changing f keys or control groups will have an impact on the highest level of play tho which shouldn't be allowed to happen.
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On May 20 2017 19:41 onlystar wrote:
as said before remapping control roups will benifit one build /matchup MORE than the other having sk terran in mind or zerg who always has many unit groups just you can figure this out yourself the 3 races mechanics differ from each other
"having sk terran in mind"
"zerg who always has many unit groups"
so? this is a weak argument. is there any test data which indicates that remappable control groups ruins competitive balance?
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lol ... i give up guys people fail to grasp the most simple concept of broodwar
yea totally producing units and changing spell hotkeys is exactly the same as controlling a maxed 200/200 army and wont effect balance thats why blizzard said ''to presurve balance'' thats why they re thinked the hotkey changes for SC:R you are absolutely right
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On May 20 2017 19:50 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:44 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem? this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement: "To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine. player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine. player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand. player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan. player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan. player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand. why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance. Players at the highest lvl of play have no issue producing marines or probes, unit hotkeys have no impact on the gameplay for them (they only do at lower levels). That said there's a separation between players when it comes to f key and control group usage and that has an impact on how someone macros, micros, engages battles etc. Hotkey and Fkeys have an impact on gameplay even at the highest level (and so do hotkeys like Patrol which is why a lot of us are against having it be rebindable), unit hotkeys don't. Being able to change unit hotkeys lowers the entry barrier for newer players without having an impact on the highest level of play. Changing f keys or control groups will have an impact on the highest level of play tho which shouldn't be allowed to happen.
sure, I understand that control / F keys would have a massive impact at the highest level of play. but impact is not the same as balance. I don't understand how the impact would benefit one race over the other.
"To preserve competitive balance" is not correct.
"To preserve traditional mechanics" is a better way of saying it...
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yea shodan very insightfull! good post
i also want you to have 12345qwer for control groups meh why they wont give u meh super lame of them
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On May 20 2017 19:59 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:50 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:44 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem? this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement: "To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine. player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine. player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand. player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan. player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan. player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand. why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance. Players at the highest lvl of play have no issue producing marines or probes, unit hotkeys have no impact on the gameplay for them (they only do at lower levels). That said there's a separation between players when it comes to f key and control group usage and that has an impact on how someone macros, micros, engages battles etc. Hotkey and Fkeys have an impact on gameplay even at the highest level (and so do hotkeys like Patrol which is why a lot of us are against having it be rebindable), unit hotkeys don't. Being able to change unit hotkeys lowers the entry barrier for newer players without having an impact on the highest level of play. Changing f keys or control groups will have an impact on the highest level of play tho which shouldn't be allowed to happen. sure, I understand that control / F keys would have a massive impact at the highest level of play. but impact is not the same as balance. I don't understand how the impact would benefit one race over the other. "To preserve competitive balance" is not correct. "To preserve traditional mechanics" is a better way of saying it...
Well now we're arguing over a word but i agree with you, it's basically to maintain the difficulty level of the game (via keyboard mechanics) in order to have separation between players even at the highest level. "To preserve traditional mechanics" is a better way of phrasing it.
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On May 20 2017 19:59 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:50 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:44 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem? this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement: "To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine. player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine. player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand. player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan. player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan. player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand. why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance. Players at the highest lvl of play have no issue producing marines or probes, unit hotkeys have no impact on the gameplay for them (they only do at lower levels). That said there's a separation between players when it comes to f key and control group usage and that has an impact on how someone macros, micros, engages battles etc. Hotkey and Fkeys have an impact on gameplay even at the highest level (and so do hotkeys like Patrol which is why a lot of us are against having it be rebindable), unit hotkeys don't. Being able to change unit hotkeys lowers the entry barrier for newer players without having an impact on the highest level of play. Changing f keys or control groups will have an impact on the highest level of play tho which shouldn't be allowed to happen. sure, I understand that control / F keys would have a massive impact at the highest level of play. but impact is not the same as balance. I don't understand how the impact would benefit one race over the other. "To preserve competitive balance" is not correct. "To preserve traditional mechanics" is a better way of saying it...
one of the many examples of balance change:
late game maxed zergs have more units that they can hotkey, while protoss has like 6. if zergs are able to rebind them, it'll make fights easier to manage for zergs.
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On May 20 2017 19:59 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:50 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:44 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem? this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement: "To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine. player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine. player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand. player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan. player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan. player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand. why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance. Players at the highest lvl of play have no issue producing marines or probes, unit hotkeys have no impact on the gameplay for them (they only do at lower levels). That said there's a separation between players when it comes to f key and control group usage and that has an impact on how someone macros, micros, engages battles etc. Hotkey and Fkeys have an impact on gameplay even at the highest level (and so do hotkeys like Patrol which is why a lot of us are against having it be rebindable), unit hotkeys don't. Being able to change unit hotkeys lowers the entry barrier for newer players without having an impact on the highest level of play. Changing f keys or control groups will have an impact on the highest level of play tho which shouldn't be allowed to happen. sure, I understand that control / F keys would have a massive impact at the highest level of play. but impact is not the same as balance. I don't understand how the impact would benefit one race over the other. "To preserve competitive balance" is not correct. "To preserve traditional mechanics" is a better way of saying it...
The only balance that matters, is at the highest lvl of play. So as u agree that control groups and F keys can have an effect on play.
The management of hotkeys is a resource that requires skill and effort to learn/master, players can use the management to differentiate themselves from others the 8,9,0 keys are not exactly comfortable to reach for everyone. There are players willing to put effort into being able effectively use them (jaedong as a player has mentioned he doesnt use those hotkeys simply because when he started they were bothersome and far away), compared that to bisu's hotkey arrangements where he uses all of them and not only that but he continuously reassigns them through the game (unlike standard play like stork's control groups where 1,2,3,4 are units 5 is obs, 6,7,8 are production 9,0 are nex/production)
Its a part of brood war that allows differentiation of players tho its effect may be smaller than say unlimited control group selection, the principle is the same. Your removing something that affects one player from another.
The main point of blizzard's post at the bottom is to explain why control groups are not going to be rebindable, not to argue semantics.
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Japan11285 Posts
On May 20 2017 17:55 gngfn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 16:34 arb wrote:
Speaking of random stuff, did anyone notice they finally renamed the Robotics Support to Robotics Support Bay? People have been calling it the wrong name for years It was always called Robotics Support Bay in the tooltip in the build menu. It's just called Protoss Robotics Support in the main window thing because the word "Bay" doesn't fit.
I've only noticed 'Bay' isn't on the main window thing again after like 15 years lol. I've always assumed it has 'Bay' after I kinda forgot about this. Wow.
I think making movement hotkeys rebindable will make it too easy for players (not that I mind that, although I want some mechanics to be a bit challenging), but the real question is will easier patrol-micro etc change competitive balance?
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The ultimate solution is if obviously:
Contextual Hotkeys or Optimized Hotkeys
to be able to assign hotkeys depending on which unit/building is selected
Example: If you got a unit:
Q - Patroll
A - Attack (or switched with Patroll)
S - Stop
D - Hold Position
more specifically a - high templar:
- W - Merge
- E - Storm
- R - Hallucination
If you've selected a building with either units, upgrades or abilities one would use Q, W, E, R, A, S, D, F
A Probe would have to be able to use all action commands (when selected in a group with attack units) and have enough keys for 2 types of buildings, so:
Q - Patroll, A - Attack, S - Stop, D - Hold Position, W - Resources, E - Building, R - Advanced Building. When selecting to build the keys reset and and the following take over: Q - Nexus, W - Pylon, E - Gateway, R- Cypernetics Core, A - Cannon, S - Shield Battery, D - Forge, F - Citadel, or if you want an advanced building pressing the other modifier and have Q - Stargate, W - Robo, E - Templar Archives, R - Robo Support Bay, F - Fleet Beacon, A - Arbiter Tribunal
My optimized hotkey setup layout:
Q - Patroll, Probe, Nexus, Stargate, Zealot, Corsair, Air Weapons, Ground Weapons, Scarab Damage
A - Attack, Cannon, Dragoon, Carrier, Air Armor, Ground Armor, Scarab Capacity
S - Stop, Shield Battery, Scout, High Templar, Air Shield, Ground Shield, Research Storm, Research Stasis, Mind Control, Interceptor Capacity
D - Hold Position, Forge, Dark Tempar, Arbiter, Research Hallucination,
W - Resources, Robo, Observer, Dragoon Range, Merge, Build Scarabs, Interceptors, Zealot Legspeed, Observer Sight, Templar Energy
E - Building -> Gateway, Templar Archives, Storm, Feedback, Shuttle, Shuttle Speed, Drop off / Pick up, Dark Templar Energy, Arbiter Energy, Corsair Energy, Recharge Shields
R - Cybernetics Core, Advanced Building -> Robo Support Bay, Hallucination, Recall, Mind Control, Research Recall
F - Citadel, Fleet Beacon, Scout Speed
Control groups: `(~) to 5 ^ z to v
Positional: tab, caps, windows key
Fkeys to switch between online in-game-themed radio frequencies (one can dreams)
I'd switch Ctrl to Alt, Shift to Space, Alt to Shift and Space to Ctrl.
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On May 20 2017 19:59 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:50 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:44 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem? this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement: "To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine. player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine. player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand. player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan. player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan. player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand. why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance. Players at the highest lvl of play have no issue producing marines or probes, unit hotkeys have no impact on the gameplay for them (they only do at lower levels). That said there's a separation between players when it comes to f key and control group usage and that has an impact on how someone macros, micros, engages battles etc. Hotkey and Fkeys have an impact on gameplay even at the highest level (and so do hotkeys like Patrol which is why a lot of us are against having it be rebindable), unit hotkeys don't. Being able to change unit hotkeys lowers the entry barrier for newer players without having an impact on the highest level of play. Changing f keys or control groups will have an impact on the highest level of play tho which shouldn't be allowed to happen. sure, I understand that control / F keys would have a massive impact at the highest level of play. but impact is not the same as balance. I don't understand how the impact would benefit one race over the other. "To preserve competitive balance" is not correct. "To preserve traditional mechanics" is a better way of saying it...
Rebinding control group hotkeys would help some races more than others. If Jaedong doesn't use the hotkeys 8-0 and boxes units to move them late game giving him three more easy army hotkeys would give him much more army control. On the other hand Protoss doesn't benefit nearly as much because a max Protoss army already fits on 5 or 6 hotkeys.
Anyone saying that SC2 lets you rebind those keys and it didn't change anything needs realize they are different games. BW has a 12 unit selection limit and SC2 has smart casting and a button to let you select all your army units on the map at once.
I'm personally hoping tournaments use standardized hotkeys.
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I'm personally hoping tournaments use standardized hotkeys.
Well...they wont. If the official patch on the game is that custom hotkeys are acceptable, and then we go months where tens of thousands of ladder games are played with custom hotkeys, custom hotkeys will be accepted invariably. Even if they do increase a persons ability to play the game through mechanical simplification, bw truly is a strategy game. No one who cant beat me is going to start beating me because to siege he didnt need to move his hand quite as quickly, and I'm not going to start taking games off Sero because i rearranged my hotkeys a bit.
The games too complex for something like this to totally upend everything.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play.
I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it.
I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top.
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On May 20 2017 04:58 chocorush wrote:
Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have.
I had just removed my F1 key whenever I was playing starcraft. Can't press a key that isn't there.
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On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS.
There isn't too much to do, it is either mechanical skill or RNG as happen with TBS games.
Even though im a bad player prefer to lose a competitive game because i wasn't fast enough not because the dice hated me.
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The "funniest" thing we get from this topic is there are a lot of people that want BW to become more strategy focus and less mechanical. That means how much SC2 has failed, unfortunately :\
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On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top.
Yeah it seems like people believe that all of a sudden players are going to get worse/better at the highest level because of hotkeys. It's really not going to change anything at all. Hero is not all of a sudden going to start crushing Flash/Last/Bisu/etc just because he switched hotkeys.
Some new player isn't going to come out of nowhere and start beating top players because of hotkey changes. I would bet money that Flash/Last could still use default hotkeys while Hero or any foreigner/korean switches theirs and the results would be the same as when they used to default hotkeys.
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On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top.
You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level.
JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,).
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On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,).
Only thing i think ill be changing is siege and mines
probably to E(siege) and Q(mines) anything else i'm not gonna bother though
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On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,).
TT1 seemed to say the opposite, unless I misunderstood. That changing the ability and building hotkeys won't change much in competitive, while changing the number or F hotkeys will. Seems from the OP that blizzard agrees. I never really made it up from D on iccup, so I wouldn't know myself. I do know that I'll be happy to change hotkey when I come back from sc2, and that I'd happily change the number and F hotkeys as well. But I understand that pro-level balance has to come first.
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On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,).
I'm willing to bet you money that no ex-pro will switch any of their hotkeys, which should ultimately prove that it doesn't strengthen whatver race you're playing .
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United States10081 Posts
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else.
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Does broodwar also oblige a standardized keyboard? because there's compact laptop style keyboards that have the f-keys way closer than on a standard keyboard. Does using one of those change game balance too? What a weird discussion this is...
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On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else.
It sounds a little more than elitist, it's self-destructive.
"Get off my lawn"
On May 21 2017 19:53 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Does broodwar also oblige a standardized keyboard? because there's compact laptop style keyboards that have the f-keys way closer than on a standard keyboard. Does using one of those change game balance too? What a weird discussion this is..
Why switch from ball mouses to optic/laser ones was even allowed? They give you an upper hand against someone who plays on the former, make the game detect ball mouse and not run if a modern one is plugged in.
I'm curious whether people will change their minds or not if collective Korean scene gives a definite ok to custom hotkeys, maybe they are more elite than them.
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On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else.
If you make sc:r as a gift to the people already playing sc:bw, then I agree with you, makes sense.
If you want to bring in more people to the game, then I think it's important to understand the potential newcomers or returners. Not blindly following whatever people want of course, but take into consideration.
I get the impression that people are a bit split between these two angles of approach and I think blizzard is trying to do changes that they think fit both of these.
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On May 20 2017 11:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 11:18 playa wrote:
People still use lack of APM for why they lose in BW. Sad. If you can't win with around 150 APM, then you don't know what you're doing. When OOV was the best player in the world and had ridiculous win streaks, he was always around 220 APM. If you can't win with considerably less than that vs non Koreans... jesus...
BW takes no more APM than SC 2 does. You just have to actually hotkey stuff, unlike Zergs in GM. BW takes tremendous APM, and it's also a bit deceiving, because you might have 150apm because you're inefficient, for example you might have decent APM because of muta micro, or quickly building many zerglings at once, but when someone like Lancerx plays with 150apm and usually floats top 10 on iccup, his apm if he played like me would be at least 200. Also protoss is a bit of the exception, I've played with many people on Shieldbattery, and I don't think I've ever seen a B or higher zerg or terran average less than 200apm (of course I only have a sample pool of like 30 people I've played with at that level). If you have lower APM you can try to combat it by playing shorter games, but myself, playing at usually around 140apm, the difference between TT1 and myself is night and day when it comes to trying to manage 4 or 5 bases, even though I know exactly what to do. Either way, when I started BW my APM was 60, and now it's a lot higher, and I'm still extremely inefficient with my hotkey usage. APM isn't really a hard cap, by playing smarter you will increase your APM significantly. For example by building gateways next to one another you'll build units faster than if they're spread out, and therefore also have higher APM. Hotkeys will tremendously increase APM, etc.
Not true. I was around B+ with Terran when I had 150'ish APM. Beat like every ToT member with that APM. The closer you get to 200, the more preferable, but it doesn't mean you're going to play like a noob.
You don't need a lot of APM to play T vs P. And, anything around 200 APM is sufficient for T vs Z. With Toss.... simply having a pulse is enough. No APM excuses vs non Koreans. It's about having proper mechanics. Using F keys, hotkeying things properly. By simply being a spam monkey, you're going to inflate your APM by at least 50. So, you can have 150 APM and accomplish even more than a 200 apm player, who no one would bat an eye at for playing too slowly.
The most important thing, as always, is knowing what to do. No matter how fast you play, if you're not making the right decisions, you're simply shooting yourself in the foot faster. I would say APM was more important in SC 2, because the game wasn't as complex, so by simply doing more, odds are your chances of winning increased.
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On May 21 2017 19:53 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else. It sounds a little more than elitist, it's self-destructive. "Get off my lawn"
That's unfortunately the case here. While I am ok with key-binding, suggesting unlimited unit selection and multi-buliding selection is an instant "Get off my lawn" trigger for me.
You call it self-destructive, I call it self-presserving and self-interest. It would rather be self-destructive to go the path many newcomers want to go. They are unlikely to stand for long no matter what changes are made. Veterans on the other hand are already proven in their "loyality" to the game and they know very well what they want, what are their expectation as players/audience and have a strong agreement what minimum features must be preserved.
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On May 20 2017 19:59 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:50 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:44 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem? this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement: "To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine. player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine. player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand. player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan. player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan. player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand. why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance. Players at the highest lvl of play have no issue producing marines or probes, unit hotkeys have no impact on the gameplay for them (they only do at lower levels). That said there's a separation between players when it comes to f key and control group usage and that has an impact on how someone macros, micros, engages battles etc. Hotkey and Fkeys have an impact on gameplay even at the highest level (and so do hotkeys like Patrol which is why a lot of us are against having it be rebindable), unit hotkeys don't. Being able to change unit hotkeys lowers the entry barrier for newer players without having an impact on the highest level of play. Changing f keys or control groups will have an impact on the highest level of play tho which shouldn't be allowed to happen. sure, I understand that control / F keys would have a massive impact at the highest level of play. but impact is not the same as balance. I don't understand how the impact would benefit one race over the other.
This even happens with regular remaps to some degree and to an even larger degree with patrol/hold being rebindable:
[I]rradiate
M[i]nes
Siege M[o]de
Patrol/hold becomes super relevant when we think of e.g. Vulture or, more crucial, Mutalisk micro.
Overall all of these things will have *some* impact. The question is how much is 'good' for the game we love. Broodwar being mechanically challenging is part of its core gameplay and appeal after all.
Personally I'm highly skeptical that removing the need to move your left hand at all is a good thing, simply because it makes things easier for everyone when it comes to dexterity and precision.
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On May 21 2017 18:16 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). TT1 seemed to say the opposite, unless I misunderstood. That changing the ability and building hotkeys won't change much in competitive, while changing the number or F hotkeys will. Seems from the OP that blizzard agrees. I never really made it up from D on iccup, so I wouldn't know myself. I do know that I'll be happy to change hotkey when I come back from sc2, and that I'd happily change the number and F hotkeys as well. But I understand that pro-level balance has to come first.
I'm sorry, I wasn't being too accurate. I ment that keys 0-8 does not matter because blizzard has informed those keys can't be remapped. I disagree with TT1 when he is saying being able to remap rest of the keys doesn't affect the balance. Who knows maybe he has been using 3rd party to also remap his keys before and wants justify this act.
On May 21 2017 18:26 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). I'm willing to bet you money that no ex-pro will switch any of their hotkeys, which should ultimately prove that it doesn't strengthen whatver race you're playing .
I'm up for the bet. How much?
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On May 21 2017 01:26 Dazed_Spy wrote:
No one who cant beat me is going to start beating me because to siege he didnt need to move his hand quite as quickly, and I'm not going to start taking games off Sero because i rearranged my hotkeys a bit.
This is completely irrelevant. It's for people whose skill levels are essentially identical that it will have an effect that matters. And it's only at the highest, competitive level that we should worry about it.
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On May 21 2017 20:29 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 19:53 aQuaSC wrote:On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else. It sounds a little more than elitist, it's self-destructive. "Get off my lawn" That's unfortunately the case here. While I am ok with key-binding, suggesting unlimited unit selection and multi-buliding selection is an instant "Get off my lawn" trigger for me. You call it self-destructive, I call it self-presserving and self-interest. It would rather be self-destructive to go the path many newcomers want to go. They are unlikely to stand for long no matter what changes are made. Veterans on the other hand are already proven in their "loyality" to the game and they know very well what they want, what are their expectation as players/audience and have a strong agreement what minimum features must be preserved.
I never had in mind anything other than custom hotkeys and my "self-destructive" comment was targeted at the last paragraph where FlaShFTW seemingly says that any change is not acceptable no matter what.
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On May 21 2017 21:21 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +I'm willing to bet you money that no ex-pro will switch any of their hotkeys, which should ultimately prove that it doesn't strengthen whatver race you're playing . I'm up for the bet. How much?
10 bucks? I'm a poor student
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On May 21 2017 21:21 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 18:16 Cascade wrote:On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). TT1 seemed to say the opposite, unless I misunderstood. That changing the ability and building hotkeys won't change much in competitive, while changing the number or F hotkeys will. Seems from the OP that blizzard agrees. I never really made it up from D on iccup, so I wouldn't know myself. I do know that I'll be happy to change hotkey when I come back from sc2, and that I'd happily change the number and F hotkeys as well. But I understand that pro-level balance has to come first. I'm sorry, I wasn't being too accurate. I ment that keys 0-8 does not matter because blizzard has informed those keys can't be remapped. I disagree with TT1 when he is saying being able to remap rest of the keys doesn't affect the balance. Who knows maybe he has been using 3rd party to also remap his keys before and wants justify this act. Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 18:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). I'm willing to bet you money that no ex-pro will switch any of their hotkeys, which should ultimately prove that it doesn't strengthen whatver race you're playing . I'm up for the bet. How much?
Building/unit hotkeys wont matter, ability hotkeys won't matter as much at the highest level either (maybe just a bit for a few players). Players like Flash won't care about changing ability keys, he can already irradiate/siege/mine with ease. I bet most of them won't even change their hotkeys. I know for a fact that Scan won't change any of his hotkeys because he's already extremely comfortable playing with the normal keys.
That said ability and building/unit hotkeys will have an impact on lower lvls of play, it'll help lower end players (even players such as myself) to play more efficiently. Innovation uses BW hotkeys in SC2 and he's still a dominant player (whereas everyone else uses super efficient hotkeys), these kinds of stuff have very little impact on the highest lvl of play.
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On May 22 2017 00:25 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 21:21 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 18:16 Cascade wrote:On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). TT1 seemed to say the opposite, unless I misunderstood. That changing the ability and building hotkeys won't change much in competitive, while changing the number or F hotkeys will. Seems from the OP that blizzard agrees. I never really made it up from D on iccup, so I wouldn't know myself. I do know that I'll be happy to change hotkey when I come back from sc2, and that I'd happily change the number and F hotkeys as well. But I understand that pro-level balance has to come first. I'm sorry, I wasn't being too accurate. I ment that keys 0-8 does not matter because blizzard has informed those keys can't be remapped. I disagree with TT1 when he is saying being able to remap rest of the keys doesn't affect the balance. Who knows maybe he has been using 3rd party to also remap his keys before and wants justify this act. On May 21 2017 18:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). I'm willing to bet you money that no ex-pro will switch any of their hotkeys, which should ultimately prove that it doesn't strengthen whatver race you're playing . I'm up for the bet. How much? Building/unit hotkeys wont matter, ability hotkeys won't matter as much at the highest level either (maybe just a bit for a few players). Players like Flash won't care about changing ability keys, he can already irradiate/siege/mine with ease. I bet most of them won't even change their hotkeys. I know for a fact that Scan won't change any of his hotkeys because he's already extremely comfortable playing with the normal keys. That said ability and building/unit hotkeys will have an impact on lower lvls of play, it'll help lower end players (even players such as myself) to play more efficiently. Innovation uses BW hotkeys in SC2 and he's still a dominant player (whereas everyone else uses super efficient hotkeys), these kinds of stuff have very little impact on the highest lvl of play.
Again, there is no point on referring to SC2 when mechanics does not play as big part on that game than they do (currently) on bw. I seem to have to repeat this over and over again. And I am pretty damn certain there will be ex-pro terrans switching their hotkeys for irritiade, siege and mines. It really does not take that long to adapt to new hotkeys no matter if you have used the old ones for over a decade. There is no point keeping unit ability keys on the other side of the keyboard when you can move them closer to A-button. You seriously think there is no benefit from doing that?
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On May 21 2017 07:23 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The "funniest" thing we get from this topic is there are a lot of people that want BW to become more strategy focus and less mechanical. That means how much SC2 has failed, unfortunately :\
You could apply that to competitive gaming in general, with MOBAs overtaking RTS and less mechanically demanding, but more strategic FPS taking over more mechanically demanding ones (Counterstrike & Quake scenario.) The team based aspect has a lot to do with it but also there has been a shift in gaming apart from the Sc2 boogey man that is used by a lot of unwarranted elitists.
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I must say, that i completely support this and am impressed blizzard is taking the steps to implement this. Kudos.
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On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby.
I really like this idea. Remap is fine but I think its good that players that don't like it can choose to not play people who use it.
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No one raised the possibility that tournaments will disallow custom hotkeys. No good reason for them not to do so.
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On May 22 2017 03:48 AndAgain wrote:
No one raised the possibility that tournaments will disallow custom hotkeys. No good reason for them not to do so.
The possibility has been raised already and I can definitely see somebody say "No good reason to do so" as well.
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On May 22 2017 03:54 JungleTerrain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 03:48 AndAgain wrote:
No one raised the possibility that tournaments will disallow custom hotkeys. No good reason for them not to do so. The possibility has been raised already and I can definitely see somebody say "No good reason to do so" as well.
Because there's strong chance it will create worse gameplay, and no real chance it will create better gameplay. The technical difficulty of the game is perfectly fine as is. Custom hotkeys are only good to lower the hurdle for new players.
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I wholeheartedly agree with TT1. Like I've been saying, it won't change how the game is played as a whole. You look at the high level players and see that a) they are comfortable with their hotkeys b) they are extremely good at adaptation. Think of this as a setting, as opposed to a buff/nerf.
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On May 22 2017 02:21 KrOjah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 07:23 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The "funniest" thing we get from this topic is there are a lot of people that want BW to become more strategy focus and less mechanical. That means how much SC2 has failed, unfortunately :\ You could apply that to competitive gaming in general, with MOBAs overtaking RTS and less mechanically demanding, but more strategic FPS taking over more mechanically demanding ones (Counterstrike & Quake scenario.) The team based aspect has a lot to do with it but also there has been a shift in gaming apart from the Sc2 boogey man that is used by a lot of unwarranted elitists.
The problem is that easy games are hard to master. Anyone who played sc2 or mobas at master level know how frustrating it can be. The game becomes unforgiven to small mistakes. But you know, SC2 is not bad because of easier mechanics, it's the design of the game, units, pathing, etc, thats make it more volatile than it should be. It's my thought on the subject
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On May 22 2017 04:01 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 03:54 JungleTerrain wrote:On May 22 2017 03:48 AndAgain wrote:
No one raised the possibility that tournaments will disallow custom hotkeys. No good reason for them not to do so. The possibility has been raised already and I can definitely see somebody say "No good reason to do so" as well. Because there's strong chance it will create worse gameplay, and no real chance it will create better gameplay. The technical difficulty of the game is perfectly fine as is. Custom hotkeys are only good to lower the hurdle for new players.
We don't know that for sure. Everything in this thread is mostly speculation. We will only know actual effects to gameplay once we've seen people play with these settings within a set of time. Back during the PTR, we didn't get to see top Koreans using these at length so we just don't know yet. Personally I only tried changing the Probe and Pylon hotkeys to "S", and I would not say these had any effects on my gameplay (just a convenience thing, but obviously this is a very mild hotkey change).
And I am mostly playing devil's advocate here.
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On May 22 2017 05:04 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 02:21 KrOjah wrote:On May 21 2017 07:23 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The "funniest" thing we get from this topic is there are a lot of people that want BW to become more strategy focus and less mechanical. That means how much SC2 has failed, unfortunately :\ You could apply that to competitive gaming in general, with MOBAs overtaking RTS and less mechanically demanding, but more strategic FPS taking over more mechanically demanding ones (Counterstrike & Quake scenario.) The team based aspect has a lot to do with it but also there has been a shift in gaming apart from the Sc2 boogey man that is used by a lot of unwarranted elitists. The problem is that easy games are hard to master. Anyone who played sc2 or mobas at master level know how frustrating it can be. The game becomes unforgiven to small mistakes. But you know, SC2 is not bad because of easier mechanics, it's the design of the game, units, pathing, etc, thats make it more volatile than it should be. It's my thought on the subject
Ya I think it's more design issues. Not that I think Sc2 is bad at all, but it did not reach its potential. Not doing better in Korea was the biggest fail. Personally I haven't played the game in years and doubt I ever will again. Nothing wrong with the pathing mind, it actually a less volatile game in that regard. Units react well to instructions generally.
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i'm sorry, i think the game should be EXACTLY like 1.16.1 other than whatever "graphical improvements" they're adding. i consider any modification to broodwar from a gameplay perspective a downgrade, and i think it'll just end up splitting the kr community.. which sucks, because i'm assuming 1.16 will eventually die because fish will prioritize the casuals and blizzard will obviously say no to 1.16.1 tournies and as a result i'll be left with this shitty noobified knockoff with key reybindings.. we've had the game for nearly 20 years, through blizzard's multiple attempts to kill it, and now they finally found a way to do it in for me... "we're not going to touch the iconic gameplay" my fucking ass. everytime i lose it won't be like it has been for the past 20ish years: "wow, that guy really played well, his macro was on point!" instead it'll be "hm. i wonder if he optimally rebinded his keys instead of actually having good mechanics." it's a travesty to the game's legacy.
edit~ 1.16.1
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On May 22 2017 09:19 Endymion wrote:
i'm sorry, i think the game should be EXACTLY like 1.16.1 other than whatever "graphical improvements" they're adding. i consider any modification to broodwar from a gameplay perspective a downgrade, and i think it'll just end up splitting the kr community.. which sucks, because i'm assuming 1.16 will eventually die because fish will prioritize the casuals and blizzard will obviously say no to 1.16.1 tournies and as a result i'll be left with this shitty noobified knockoff with key reybindings.. we've had the game for nearly 20 years, through blizzard's multiple attempts to kill it, and now they finally found a way to do it in for me... "we're not going to touch the iconic gameplay" my fucking ass. everytime i lose it won't be like it has been for the past 20ish years: "wow, that guy really played well, his macro was on point!" instead it'll be "hm. i wonder if he optimally rebinded his keys instead of actually having good mechanics." it's a travesty to the game's legacy.
edit~ 1.16.1
lol you are the epitome of a old school bw player stuck in his ways. I've been playing bw for 20 years as well and I'm not opposed to the change. They are leaving control keys and f keys, it's literally just the ability and structure hotkeys.
As others have said the pro's currently play near perfectly with default keys so it won't make a difference rebinding for them. Noobs aren't suddenly gonna start randomly taking games off pro's because of these magical rebinds. There is so much more to winning than rebinding a few keys.
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On May 22 2017 09:19 Endymion wrote:
everytime i lose it won't be like it has been for the past 20ish years: "wow, that guy really played well, his macro was on point!" instead it'll be "hm. i wonder if he optimally rebinded his keys instead of actually having good mechanics." it's a travesty to the game's legacy.
How is that any different to the way it's played now? Anyone you play atm could be using a key rebinder. Other people have already mentioned they know of top players playing in online tournaments who rebound their keys. The only thing this changes is adding support for it in the UI.
IMO if you're looking to blame your loss on what the other guy may or may not have been doing rather than your own skills then you've got the wrong attitude.
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1. I have a suggestion, since you wont change the F keys placement, maybe you could unblock the rest of them?
I would not mind to lock my bases under F9-F12 and spawn points and critical places under F2-F6.
2. Do you consider changing the binding keys? Like i'd love to swap ctrl with space bar. It's unnatural to use pinky finger to bind control groups. Thumb on space bar is way more comfortable!!
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Yeah it'll be fair. Yeah people will have the same tools.
However....
Now whenever I see muta micro at a high level, I'll just not be as impressed. A small bit of me will think "well, the shit used to be tougher to do."
I also feel this game has lasted 19 years. It did NOT last 19 years due to casual players. Casual players stuck around for a couple years, and then it was GG for them. The Korean professional scene is the ONLY reason Starcraft has survived at this level for this long.
This is a gameplay system that has held against the test of time. Everyone had the SAME TOOLS. Everyone had to deal with the SAME PROBLEMS. It was hard as hell using patrol to react slightly quicker. It was hard as hell pressing keys all the way on the right side of the keyboard with 100% accuracy all the time.
Watching the greats gods of this game play has been a major joy of my life. Now, I will soon see those gods play it with easier tools. I'll now see the basketball rim lowered to a height that player prefers it to be. I'll now see the bobsled shaped more properly for the sledders, with the exact type of weight they want it to be. I now get to watch the driver choose the type of wheels he or she likes, rather than use the same car.
When you see someone in World of Warcraft have an addon assist them by reminding them of every single mechanic and every timer so that they don't mess up... are you impressed by the player? or.. the tool they are using?
So basically this is how I see it:
-Everyone will take advantages of the same hotkeys
-Everyone will be on equal footing
-Every time we watch a game, we'll think "well, it used to be harder to do that, but I guess it's easier now"
-The magic of boxer's incredible lockdown won't be as magical anymore.
Tell me... what is better for the competitive scene? We already balanced the hell out of this game and it's PERFECT. It had its patches and it had its balancing changes. Changing hotkeys is something blizzard could've done back when the game came out. They chose not to, and it became one of the greatest games I've ever played. Now we're fucking with that perfect formula and people are cool with it? You really want to see Jaedong do muta micro and think about how all that insane practice he put in it for incredible precision is now on a joke level for people below him?
This is the one single game we CANNOT allow the casuals to mess up. Call it elitism or whatever, but casuals did NOT keep this game alive. The godly players from Korea kept this game alive. There has been no other video game in history to hold such an incredible status for so long that has not been propped up by casuals spending money on it.
I want to miss keys. I want to think about how difficult it is to do, because the ONLY REASON I WATCH THIS GAME is because it's INSANELY hard to play at a high level. I'm IMPRESSED by the players. Don't ruin the viewership by making the game easier to play. It has lasted 19 years and needs no change to the gameplay... period.
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It is true that the game is alive only due to Korea - but not only due to pros in Korea, but also due to casuals there. In fact, the game would be in exactly the same shape if Teamliquid never existed. It is simply fact that e.g. the Chinese market is more important than the rest of the world combined (take note of pro Koreans foreign language proficiency). What is correct, however, is that English-speaking casuals are almost irrelevant for years now - but so are all the older English-speaking players, including on these forums.
Back to the point, there is space for improvement in BW, it is not Gospel, and calling rebindable keys balance-breaking is laughable (to use the often cited pun, "balance" it with maps if it's such an issue).
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Casuals keep the game alive, because they watch the fucking matches. You attract more casuals, more sponsors show up, then more money comes in, than you have bigger and better tournaments, which attracts more players to the game, so the scene gets more competitive, so the overall skill level increases. You don't attract new people to the game, the game dies. And you won't attract new people to the game in 2017 if they are forced to click "P" if the want to make a probe.
Brood War actually can be resurected big time with SC:R, the scene can grow again. A lot of players from sc2 will switch, some new players will come in. But the game needs to feel fresh to get this going. Besides, even with custom hotkeys the game is still the hardest to play mechanicaly. Players will be able to do things a bit better, but doing things perfect will still be impossible, because the ceiling is sky high. Maybe we will see some plays, that were not possible before and that I think is a good thing.
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Seems like the predictions differ a fair bit on how big impact this will have at the highest level. Some say that it will be barely noticeable, others say that it will ruin the viewing experience.
It would be interesting to know what the top korean players think about this. How big difference do they think it'll make? Will they change hotkeys? Which and how many? They must have talked about this on stream (right?), but I haven't seen anything in this thread. Maybe I missed it... Anyone knows or can find out? Even the pros cant know for sure until it's been in place for a while of course, but they should be the ones in the best position to predict the impact of this.
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@Grunt uhhh I don't think so casual players have always been around
there is no way ability to change hotkeys like this will impact seriously watching high level matches... I don't believe it at all, lol there is a lot to be impressed more than the distance between some keys
I just think this is really nice, not that many strategy games have a hotkey remaping interface do they? I think of the older ones anyway.. it's not necessarily needed, but for bw its really good, because its really tough to control, and because people play it a lot, etc..
I can see where one could think, shit now I have to think about all my hotkeys like spells, should I move them to a easier place or not, will I be disadvantaged if I don't, is that the case though?
I also wonder, can you save your hotkeys file and quickly import it when you play on a different computer? can you upload it from your online bnet account?
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On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby.
lol why?
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Feels like a move to commercialize BW when SC2 isn't attracting big numbers anymore.
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@Gruntt: They killed skill when they added right click for Rally Points 
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It's completely false that the game is only alive due to Korea. Personally I was very active in 2007-2010 in the map making scene, and didn't even realize Korea was a thing until around 2010.
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On May 22 2017 16:30 Gruntt wrote:it's PERFECT
let me just activate my BW elitist defense matrix... brood war is not perfect.
brood war is as close to perfect as any RTS has ever got. no wonder that old school players are in arms about even the slightest changes. if I played brood war for 25 years, I'd probably feel the same way as you.
given that sc2 is in such a disastrous state, it's no wonder that brood war fans are strongly opposed to any new changes resembling sc2.
but in theory, brood war could be improved. if all the planets aligned, there would be a way.
"it's PERFECT" - this is the emotional response, which I don't agree with.
"it's close to perfect, but any attempt to improve the gameplay system will likely do more harm than good." - this is the conservative response, which is fair enough.
"it's close to perfect. let's change one variable (hotkeys)." - this is where I'm at.
"it's close to perfect. let's change one variable (hotkeys) and also another variable (multiple building selection or unlimited unit selection)." - this is where I draw the line.
for all its disappointments, I think the hotkey system of sc2 is a triumph. I like it because it does not intrude on the gameplay. the sc2 hotkey system is designed to translate your thoughts to your hands to action on screen in the fastest, most intuitive way possible.
maximum control, maximum potential.
even though I dislike the game overall, I still feel the urge to play it simply because the keyboard dance is so satisfying.
on the other hand, the intrusive hotkey system of brood war is a core part of the gameplay. why do you like it? I'm not sure why you enjoy stretching your left hand across the keyboard. when you watch the pros, do you think, "wow, Bisu really nailed those stretches to 9"?
for you, the keyboard acrobatics are part of what makes the game. for me, the action on screen is more important. I believe that taking the onus off keyboard acrobatics could spell new opportunities for pro players to show their skill in other ways.
it seems like the only way to settle this debate is testing at the pro level.
I'm not convinced by the sure-shot claims that re-mappable control groups would buff zerg. here's my theory: the benefits of re-mappable control groups would be balanced out by the increased effort it takes to assign and edit those control groups. maybe those additional zergling control groups are not worth the effort. maybe box-clicking and using the mini-map is still the best way to manage a maxed army. either way, it is a perfect test scenario because there is only one variable in play.
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On May 23 2017 01:59 SHODAN wrote:
for all its disappointments, I think the hotkey system of sc2 is a triumph. I like it because it does not intrude on the gameplay. the sc2 hotkey system is designed to translate your thoughts to your hands to action on screen in the fastest, most intuitive way possible.
I agree with your post except on this point. The sc2 hotkey system does interfere with gameplay. Rapidfire is one example for it. In fact, snipe had to be balanced around it. Then again BW doesnt have smartcast, so this chance is off the table.
Alot of the BW elitists overreact tbh. One could argue right clicking to set a rally point, was just a patch that ruined the game. But the game did fine with this ez-mode patch too. Do people really think they are gonna start losing/winning because of hotkey changes, then they are sad and don't want BW to keep growing.
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On May 23 2017 02:09 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 01:59 SHODAN wrote:
for all its disappointments, I think the hotkey system of sc2 is a triumph. I like it because it does not intrude on the gameplay. the sc2 hotkey system is designed to translate your thoughts to your hands to action on screen in the fastest, most intuitive way possible.
I agree with your post except on this point. The sc2 hotkey system does interfere with gameplay. Rapidfire is one example for it. In fact, snipe had to be balanced around it. Then again BW doesnt have smartcast, so this chance is off the table.
the good old days when sc2 had to be balanced around Mvp
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Russian Federation3329 Posts
Honestly i would like it if we had the option to have 2 keys mapped to the same command like in sc2 where you have alternates. I use both p and e for probe in sc2 but if it doesnt happen whatever lol
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Custom hotkeys won't break the game or affect balance. I have spoken, end of thread.
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On May 22 2017 07:03 KrOjah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 05:04 StarscreamG1 wrote:On May 22 2017 02:21 KrOjah wrote:On May 21 2017 07:23 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The "funniest" thing we get from this topic is there are a lot of people that want BW to become more strategy focus and less mechanical. That means how much SC2 has failed, unfortunately :\ You could apply that to competitive gaming in general, with MOBAs overtaking RTS and less mechanically demanding, but more strategic FPS taking over more mechanically demanding ones (Counterstrike & Quake scenario.) The team based aspect has a lot to do with it but also there has been a shift in gaming apart from the Sc2 boogey man that is used by a lot of unwarranted elitists. The problem is that easy games are hard to master. Anyone who played sc2 or mobas at master level know how frustrating it can be. The game becomes unforgiven to small mistakes. But you know, SC2 is not bad because of easier mechanics, it's the design of the game, units, pathing, etc, thats make it more volatile than it should be. It's my thought on the subject Ya I think it's more design issues. Not that I think Sc2 is bad at all, but it did not reach its potential. Not doing better in Korea was the biggest fail. Personally I haven't played the game in years and doubt I ever will again. Nothing wrong with the pathing mind, it actually a less volatile game in that regard. Units react well to instructions generally.
When I talk about pathing I mean the way they move, not how they response. One storm, 2 banes can finish a game because of that. I don't know if you played Starbow, it was a great "SC2", and had all the mechanics easiness. So yeah, we can agree it was not about easier meachanics that SC2 was not a hit and so volatile.
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On May 23 2017 01:15 TibbersCute wrote:
It's completely false that the game is only alive due to Korea. Personally I was very active in 2007-2010 in the map making scene, and didn't even realize Korea was a thing until around 2010.
lol
User was warned for this post
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United States10081 Posts
On May 21 2017 20:03 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else. If you make sc:r as a gift to the people already playing sc:bw, then I agree with you, makes sense. If you want to bring in more people to the game, then I think it's important to understand the potential newcomers or returners. Not blindly following whatever people want of course, but take into consideration. I get the impression that people are a bit split between these two angles of approach and I think blizzard is trying to do changes that they think fit both of these.
Brood War is brood war at the end of the day. People just wanted a graphic redesign with some small tweaks to how the game operated from a logistics standpoint, not a gameplay standpoint. Blizzard did this as basically a gift to korea.
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On May 23 2017 09:34 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 20:03 Cascade wrote:On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else. If you make sc:r as a gift to the people already playing sc:bw, then I agree with you, makes sense. If you want to bring in more people to the game, then I think it's important to understand the potential newcomers or returners. Not blindly following whatever people want of course, but take into consideration. I get the impression that people are a bit split between these two angles of approach and I think blizzard is trying to do changes that they think fit both of these. Brood War is brood war at the end of the day. People just wanted a graphic redesign with some small tweaks to how the game operated from a logistics standpoint, not a gameplay standpoint. Blizzard did this as basically a gift to korea.
You say "people" as though you know the thoughts of everyone interested in the game. The ones who get to decide how the game is designed is Blizzard themselves, and the people they choose to listen to, and hence who "has a say", is up to them.
There seems to me to be a lot of attitude here from brood war fans that this is their game, and it belongs to them, not the 'casuals' or people new to the game. It really isn't. It's Blizzard's game, and they'll do what they think is best, which may mean designing things in ways that aren't representative of what old-school fans might want (and it should be pointed out again that not even within old school fans does there seem to be a consensus on what is best).
I don't think it's appropriate to be telling people who's allowed to have an opinion on the game design.
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Blizzard will do what it wants, but if you think its going to want to do something contrary to the interests of actual broodwar fans (rather than migrating newbies with inferiority complexes) you are dearly mistaken.
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar.
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On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar.
Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'.
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United States10081 Posts
On May 23 2017 10:17 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 09:34 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 21 2017 20:03 Cascade wrote:On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else. If you make sc:r as a gift to the people already playing sc:bw, then I agree with you, makes sense. If you want to bring in more people to the game, then I think it's important to understand the potential newcomers or returners. Not blindly following whatever people want of course, but take into consideration. I get the impression that people are a bit split between these two angles of approach and I think blizzard is trying to do changes that they think fit both of these. Brood War is brood war at the end of the day. People just wanted a graphic redesign with some small tweaks to how the game operated from a logistics standpoint, not a gameplay standpoint. Blizzard did this as basically a gift to korea. You say "people" as though you know the thoughts of everyone interested in the game. The ones who get to decide how the game is designed is Blizzard themselves, and the people they choose to listen to, and hence who "has a say", is up to them. There seems to me to be a lot of attitude here from brood war fans that this is their game, and it belongs to them, not the 'casuals' or people new to the game. It really isn't. It's Blizzard's game, and they'll do what they think is best, which may mean designing things in ways that aren't representative of what old-school fans might want (and it should be pointed out again that not even within old school fans does there seem to be a consensus on what is best). I don't think it's appropriate to be telling people who's allowed to have an opinion on the game design.
Thats because we, brood war fans, the die hards, the ones who stay up til 6am in the morning casting these games and giving you coverage is the reason this game is even close to being alive in the first place. so no, someone who comes walking into brood war to ride the coat-tails of people like this current brood war staff that has worked so hard for this game doesnt get to waltz in and tell us what brood war should be. You want sc2 mechanics? go play sc2. this isnt sc2, this is brood war.
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt.
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On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt.
It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter.
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On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt.
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. But I'd suggest getting used to these people continuing to give their opinion and ignoring you when you say their opinion is irrelevant.
On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter.
Agreed.
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United States10081 Posts
On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter.
It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2.
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I don't understand about the complains this feature is good for newcomers. It's not like they're changing core mechanics(balanace of the game) they're just making the game more convenient for players.
There is literally no point of buying remastered if it was just the same up to every little thing as old BW and no improvements or extra features.
Why pay for something that is free if that's the case, literally just a waste of money if nothing is better. I don't think Ranked Match Making is enough to justify buying it.
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On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter.
I don't think he's talking about those people.
In the end, the underlying issue is that if too many changes happen that end up affecting competitive play, then the scene will split. This may or may not be the case at the moment - some guy in here wanted PROOF that hotkey remap will affect gameplay, but how would you go about proving this without hotkey remapping being available to pros for more than a week or two? Or disproving it, for that matter? Impossible. We'll just have to wait and see what happens to the competitive scene.
If it ends up doing something that the competitive community finds unfavorable to competitive play/balance/meta/whatever you want to call it, say for instance making Mutalisk micro too easy or something (not even going to conjecture, just giving a hypothetical example that has been thrown around), then you better believe all the serious competitions in Korea and all the streamers will revert to 1.16. There is precedent for this in China, which has been playing 1.13 for a long time despite newer patches being released.
If that happens, then the scene will be cleanly split between two groups: people favoring the status quo i.e. the competitive standard, and newcomers who are much more liable to play super casually like Fastest/UMS on USE or just the campaign, and are much more likely to leave for greener pastures when the game gets too hard/they get bored/they can't transition to 1.16 because of their beloved hotkey remapping/something new and shiny comes out. This divide is essentially:
1. A "hardcore" mainstay population which has proven its desire, dedication, and most importantly its willingness to donate to players, run tournaments, post on forums, compile strategy guides, so on and so forth - contributors.
2. A "newcomer" population which is generally, as a whole, more fickle, entitled, and parasitic. I don't mean ALL new players. But many new players coming into this game by definition can't contribute much to the game until they become stronger and more dedicated players. They also are used to the luxuries/spoon-feeding of modern gaming, however you want to look at it.
This divide would not be in Blizzard's favor in the long-term, nor for either divide, nor for the community as a whole. However, if Blizzard wants to make a quick buck, this would be a decent way to do it. They could also use this to springboard more restrictions on Korean broadcasting on 1.16. In that case, 1.18 had better be perfect or at least not noticeably different from 1.16 in terms of competitive play.
This is why we are, in general, wary of any changes. Whether they do or do not change things is yet to be seen, but "Why take the risk?" is the natural position of anyone worried about the outcome.
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United States10081 Posts
On May 23 2017 16:34 goody153 wrote:
I don't understand about the complains this feature is good for newcomers. It's not like they're changing core mechanics(balanace of the game) they're just making the game more convenient for players.
There is literally no point of buying remastered if it was just the same up to every little thing as old BW and no improvements or extra features.
Why pay for something that is free if that's the case, literally just a waste of money if nothing is better. I don't think Ranked Match Making is enough to justify buying it.
with remastered you're already getting basically a skin redesign on all buildings and units, you will get a wider screen, and you will get a fixed battle.net. that is what you are paying for without any upgrades. and if you dont want that, then fine, don't buy it. if you're expecting brood war to suddenly be different and basically have a 2nd installment, then go play sc2. that was your installment.
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On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2.
There are a couple of issues I see with this:
1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's.
2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players.
At the end of the day, Blizzard is a gaming company. They're in this market to sell games, and the top 1% aren't the ones who make that viable.
Now, I'm not suggesting they should simply cater to whatever the 'casuals' want, but I definitely disagree that their opinions are irrelevant and should be squashed.
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United States10081 Posts
On May 23 2017 17:18 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players.
Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play.
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On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote:The game itself is not getting changed.
Given it's Blizzard themselves who announced this change, it seems they disagree.
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On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:18 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players. Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play.
I'm sorry I don't really understand why your getting so triggered I haven't seen anyone here make a argument that we need more then 12 unit selection if there are thats pretty much a minority I just don't see how its relevant to the topic hotkeys?
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On May 23 2017 17:27 emeraldgreenforest wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 17:18 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players. Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play. I'm sorry I don't really understand why your getting so triggered I haven't seen anyone here make a argument that we need 12 unit selection if there are thats pretty much a minority I just don't see how its relevant to the topic hotkeys?
Probably fear of the snowball effect. Give people an inch and they take a mile. Ask and receive one QoL improvement without regard for repercussions (or at least without Blizzard saying anything relevant to it), and then the next one might come just as easily and with more severe impact. I'm guessing that's the mentality.
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On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes.
All this shit comes almost entirely from people who rage and never actually play the game. Find me someone whos hit c who wants mbs, or auto mining, or any significant change whatsoever except maybe the customizable hotkeys. They dont exist. There is a 1:1 relationship between being bad, not playing the game, and wanting the game to be massively restructured. Theres a reason for that: people who play and like the game arent seeking a new one. Thats what sc2 was for.
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On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes.
We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing.
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they still didn't fix the german dying sound effects and i'm complaining on their forum pretty much since 1.18 was released....
-.-
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On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. The threads about hotkey changes, the conversational chain between you me and flashftw involved mbs, automining etc. If you cant track what you and i are discussing, stop replying.
And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing I conceded that in the very post you quoted; I'm one of them.
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United States10081 Posts
On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing.
buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no.
Same with Cascade. An entire history of posting only on the TL community or SC2 forums. Only talked in the BW forum when Jaedong came back because he was his favorite player back in sc2. this is laughable.
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On May 23 2017 17:58 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. The threads about hotkey changes, the conversational chain between you me and flashftw involved mbs, automining etc. If you cant track what you and i are discussing, stop replying.
At no point have I ever mentioned MBS, automining, or any other changes. To borrow your phrase, if you can't track what you and I are discussing, stop replying.
On May 23 2017 17:59 FlaShFTW wrote:
buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no.
Sorry, but the ad hominem attacks really don't help your argument. Yes, I joined TL when SC2 came out. Does that mean I don't care about BW? No. Is how much I care about BW relevant to the discussion of whose opinion is valid regarding hotkeys in SC:R? No.
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United States10081 Posts
On May 23 2017 18:17 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:58 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. The threads about hotkey changes, the conversational chain between you me and flashftw involved mbs, automining etc. If you cant track what you and i are discussing, stop replying. At no point have I ever mentioned MBS, automining, or any other changes. To borrow your phrase, if you can't track what you and I are discussing, stop replying. Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:59 FlaShFTW wrote:
buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no. Sorry, but the ad hominem attacks really don't help your argument. Yes, I joined TL when SC2 came out. Does that mean I don't care about BW? No. Is how much I care about BW relevant to the discussion of whose opinion is valid regarding hotkeys in SC:R? No.
its not an ad hominem attack. it is going off of your tendencies and your lack of care for brood war as a whole. where were you from your join date up til now? you didn't give a damn about brood war so stop trying to pretend like you did.
Go reread TLs commandments, and i suggest you carefully reread up on 1, 4, and 6.
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On May 23 2017 18:24 FlaShFTW wrote:
its not an ad hominem attack. it is going off of your tendencies and your lack of care for brood war as a whole. where were you from your join date up til now? you didn't give a damn about brood war so stop trying to pretend like you did.
Go reread TLs commandments, and i suggest you carefully reread up on 1, 4, and 6.
All I've done is give my opinion. Your response is basically that because I haven't previously posted about BW, that my opinion is irrelevant. Yes, I have read TL's commandments, however I don't see anything in there that says newer forum members can't give dissenting opinions, as long as they're respectful about it (which I believe I have been).
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On May 23 2017 18:17 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:58 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. The threads about hotkey changes, the conversational chain between you me and flashftw involved mbs, automining etc. If you cant track what you and i are discussing, stop replying. At no point have I ever mentioned MBS, automining, or any other changes. To borrow your phrase, if you can't track what you and I are discussing, stop replying. Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:59 FlaShFTW wrote:
buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no. Sorry, but the ad hominem attacks really don't help your argument. Yes, I joined TL when SC2 came out. Does that mean I don't care about BW? No. Is how much I care about BW relevant to the discussion of whose opinion is valid regarding hotkeys in SC:R? No. You might not of directly said it..but you were replying to posts that did, and then I replied to that reply, and on and on. This is fucking ridiculous. Bye kid. 
User was warned for this post
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On May 23 2017 18:17 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Sorry, but the ad hominem attacks really don't help your argument. Yes, I joined TL when SC2 came out. Does that mean I don't care about BW? No. Is how much I care about BW relevant to the discussion of whose opinion is valid regarding hotkeys in SC:R? No.
TBH while I agree with you on the topic, I must also say that opinion of Jealous or FlashFTW is taken more serious for me. They know what are they talking about and what they defend. I'm in dissagreement with them about HK customisation (I do not predict drastic changes to balance to the point of changing meta), but I fully understand their concerns and arguments. I'm also sure if some SC2 guy came here and start to talk f.e. about balance, they would treat me a bit more serious than him even if they agree with him and disagree with me just becouse they are aware I am not from here from yesterday. On Blizzard forum or r/Starcraft all opinion values, here however we have a bunch of evil, self-centered, elitist assholes who love their game in it's current form either as a players or audience- or both. Opinion of Korean pros are on the top, than it goes the opinion of Korean audience, than veteran foreign players, than veteran foreign audience (so I put my opinion on lower scale than many others here, since I stoped actively playing few years ago and I just watch the better players do their part). The opinion of new players/audience is at the bottom of the food chain, becouse I do not trust them to stay for long as supporters.
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On May 23 2017 18:53 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 18:17 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Sorry, but the ad hominem attacks really don't help your argument. Yes, I joined TL when SC2 came out. Does that mean I don't care about BW? No. Is how much I care about BW relevant to the discussion of whose opinion is valid regarding hotkeys in SC:R? No. TBH while I agree with you on the topic, I must also say that opinion of Jealous or FlashFTW is taken more serious for me. They know what are they talking about and what they defend. I'm in dissagreement with them about HK customisation (I do not predict drastic changes to balance to the point of changing meta), but I fully understand their concerns and arguments.
Believe it or not, I actually agree with you; even I believe their opinion carries more weight. I just disagree that opinions of non-BW-vets are completely irrelevant. Seems I'm alone in that opinion though, so I guess I'll leave it there.
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On May 23 2017 17:59 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no. Same with Cascade. An entire history of posting only on the TL community or SC2 forums. Only talked in the BW forum when Jaedong came back because he was his favorite player back in sc2. this is laughable.
I wasn't talking about me specifically, but the general view of newcomers and returners. But if you want to make it personal, here is my story.
My TL account is from 2006, and I was lurking before that. I went to sc2, but I was playing sc from vanilla beta before that. I ran a community clan here on TL a while, and shared a total of 23TB+ bw VODS when people were watching through torrents back in 2009, before your account was created. I made maps. I went up in the night to watch the big games. I am (was.. TT) a big fan of savior, amazed at how he outmacroed the terrans and was heartbroken when he lost 0-3 to bisu. I loved how JD came and started wrecking bisu and the others, which is why he was my favourite sc2 player. The eh-han timing mutas and scourges vs corsairs. I could go on.
So while I obviously haven't invested as much as you have in the game, I've still invested a fair bit, and it feels pretty harsh to tell me that my voice doesn't count. Luckily I will be able to play, watch and enjoy sc:r even if some people don't approve, and I'll enjoy it with or without customisable hotkeys. 
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On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:18 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players. Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play.
Isn't this the kind of logic that perplexed InControl? Legacy players becoming elitist and extremely territorial of "their" game? 😂😂😂
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On May 23 2017 17:59 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no. Same with Cascade. An entire history of posting only on the TL community or SC2 forums. Only talked in the BW forum when Jaedong came back because he was his favorite player back in sc2. this is laughable.
The only thing "laughable" is your logic. So you have to post in the bw forums to have an educated opinion about things?
What about people who simply liked to watch bw a lot but would never want to be part of the foreign bw community because of reasons (i won't specifiy, but i am sure you can figure it out yourself)
In another post you use the common argument of "if you want it easier play sc2 instead", as if custom hotkeys would be the only important factor in this decision. No ofc not, some people like bw's gameplay a ton, the idea is simply that hotkey changes as presented in the blizzard update won't actually change the gameplay, just make it easier to learn to play the game on the lower levels. A change which is exactly what is needed if you wanna have a stable community going forward.
Appeal to tradition everywhere, "bw is perfect". FFS no it is not and not every tiny change destroys the core gameplay of bw. Yes there shouldn't be mbs, yes there shouldn't be any change to the pathing and there probably shouldn't be any change to units (though this is arguable). But custom hotkeys as they were presented? The only legit fear i can somewhat understand is that you can change "patrol, hold position, etc", that actually might be "bad" if you wanna really find something to be mad about, but even that change will not matter in the big picture.
But that's exactly the problem which always appears, there is the thought of some change and voila, you guys come out and will use any technique to argue against it because that's exactly what you do every time. "Hey you don't have 20k posts in the bw forum", what an interesting argument....
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On May 23 2017 20:13 Mizconout wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 17:18 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players. Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play. Isn't this the kind of logic that perplexed InControl? Legacy players becoming elitist and extremely territorial of "their" game? 😂😂😂
The foreign BW scene really seems to have shifted from a bunch of guys who were passionate and proud of the game they played to a bunch of elitist bandwagoners in the last several years. I know which group I prefer.
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On May 23 2017 23:35 KrOjah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 20:13 Mizconout wrote:On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 17:18 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players. Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play. Isn't this the kind of logic that perplexed InControl? Legacy players becoming elitist and extremely territorial of "their" game? 😂😂😂 The foreign BW scene really seems to have shifted from a bunch of guys who were passionate and proud of the game they played to a bunch of elitist bandwagoners in the last several years. I know which group I prefer.
Please don't use such a wide brush :/
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I wish we could all just be excited for an awesome game with better accessibility, more cool stuff from high quality content creators, and a little bit less carpal tunnel.
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Wow, are people seriously arguing here who loves the game the most so that their subjective opinions have more value? Pathetic. Its a sign that rational argumentation has failed and now they try to argue that only their opinions matter.
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Just gonna put it out there that the people bitching about how certain people are bitching are no more productive than the problem they are complaining about.
We will just have to wait and see what happens when pros have access to it for a while. Hopefully it goes smoothly
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I can see the point of people worried about the pro-scene in terms of fairness to the old pros. If anything, KESPA (or its replacement) could institute a period of adaptation. Like: 1 year without allowing people to change the hotkeys in their tournaments. So then an old school pro would have that time to try to see if he wants to modify anything (and practice it, of course).
I doubt they'll change much if anything, but they'll have the time to try new configs...
Now, people complaining about the casual games. LOL. Give me a break. You probably already played against loads of players that custom their hotkeys. Me included. I've been doing this since I switched to Protoss more than 10 years ago.
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I'm okay with custom hotkeys for casual games, but for big tournaments, absolutely not. There needs to be standards and rules set for tournament level play, and that includes hotkey setup.
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Wait.. When did we decide that pros were being held back by their hotkeys? These are players churning out 400+ APM, do you really think that everyone being able to change hotkeys will impact them negatively?
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I'm playing with the idea to change scourge's hotkey from "S".... though I'd miss thoose plenty playful unneeded scourge against a full zealot - templar push *_*
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EPT
