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On May 23 2017 18:24 FlaShFTW wrote:
its not an ad hominem attack. it is going off of your tendencies and your lack of care for brood war as a whole. where were you from your join date up til now? you didn't give a damn about brood war so stop trying to pretend like you did.
Go reread TLs commandments, and i suggest you carefully reread up on 1, 4, and 6.
All I've done is give my opinion. Your response is basically that because I haven't previously posted about BW, that my opinion is irrelevant. Yes, I have read TL's commandments, however I don't see anything in there that says newer forum members can't give dissenting opinions, as long as they're respectful about it (which I believe I have been).
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On May 23 2017 18:17 CarbonTwelve wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:58 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. The threads about hotkey changes, the conversational chain between you me and flashftw involved mbs, automining etc. If you cant track what you and i are discussing, stop replying. At no point have I ever mentioned MBS, automining, or any other changes. To borrow your phrase, if you can't track what you and I are discussing, stop replying. Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:59 FlaShFTW wrote:
buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no. Sorry, but the ad hominem attacks really don't help your argument. Yes, I joined TL when SC2 came out. Does that mean I don't care about BW? No. Is how much I care about BW relevant to the discussion of whose opinion is valid regarding hotkeys in SC:R? No. You might not of directly said it..but you were replying to posts that did, and then I replied to that reply, and on and on. This is fucking ridiculous. Bye kid. 
User was warned for this post
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On May 23 2017 18:17 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Sorry, but the ad hominem attacks really don't help your argument. Yes, I joined TL when SC2 came out. Does that mean I don't care about BW? No. Is how much I care about BW relevant to the discussion of whose opinion is valid regarding hotkeys in SC:R? No.
TBH while I agree with you on the topic, I must also say that opinion of Jealous or FlashFTW is taken more serious for me. They know what are they talking about and what they defend. I'm in dissagreement with them about HK customisation (I do not predict drastic changes to balance to the point of changing meta), but I fully understand their concerns and arguments. I'm also sure if some SC2 guy came here and start to talk f.e. about balance, they would treat me a bit more serious than him even if they agree with him and disagree with me just becouse they are aware I am not from here from yesterday. On Blizzard forum or r/Starcraft all opinion values, here however we have a bunch of evil, self-centered, elitist assholes who love their game in it's current form either as a players or audience- or both. Opinion of Korean pros are on the top, than it goes the opinion of Korean audience, than veteran foreign players, than veteran foreign audience (so I put my opinion on lower scale than many others here, since I stoped actively playing few years ago and I just watch the better players do their part). The opinion of new players/audience is at the bottom of the food chain, becouse I do not trust them to stay for long as supporters.
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On May 23 2017 18:53 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 18:17 CarbonTwelve wrote:
Sorry, but the ad hominem attacks really don't help your argument. Yes, I joined TL when SC2 came out. Does that mean I don't care about BW? No. Is how much I care about BW relevant to the discussion of whose opinion is valid regarding hotkeys in SC:R? No. TBH while I agree with you on the topic, I must also say that opinion of Jealous or FlashFTW is taken more serious for me. They know what are they talking about and what they defend. I'm in dissagreement with them about HK customisation (I do not predict drastic changes to balance to the point of changing meta), but I fully understand their concerns and arguments.
Believe it or not, I actually agree with you; even I believe their opinion carries more weight. I just disagree that opinions of non-BW-vets are completely irrelevant. Seems I'm alone in that opinion though, so I guess I'll leave it there.
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On May 23 2017 17:59 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no. Same with Cascade. An entire history of posting only on the TL community or SC2 forums. Only talked in the BW forum when Jaedong came back because he was his favorite player back in sc2. this is laughable.
I wasn't talking about me specifically, but the general view of newcomers and returners. But if you want to make it personal, here is my story.
My TL account is from 2006, and I was lurking before that. I went to sc2, but I was playing sc from vanilla beta before that. I ran a community clan here on TL a while, and shared a total of 23TB+ bw VODS when people were watching through torrents back in 2009, before your account was created. I made maps. I went up in the night to watch the big games. I am (was.. TT) a big fan of savior, amazed at how he outmacroed the terrans and was heartbroken when he lost 0-3 to bisu. I loved how JD came and started wrecking bisu and the others, which is why he was my favourite sc2 player. The eh-han timing mutas and scourges vs corsairs. I could go on.
So while I obviously haven't invested as much as you have in the game, I've still invested a fair bit, and it feels pretty harsh to tell me that my voice doesn't count. Luckily I will be able to play, watch and enjoy sc:r even if some people don't approve, and I'll enjoy it with or without customisable hotkeys. 
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On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:18 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players. Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play.
Isn't this the kind of logic that perplexed InControl? Legacy players becoming elitist and extremely territorial of "their" game? ๐๐๐
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On May 23 2017 17:59 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no. Same with Cascade. An entire history of posting only on the TL community or SC2 forums. Only talked in the BW forum when Jaedong came back because he was his favorite player back in sc2. this is laughable.
The only thing "laughable" is your logic. So you have to post in the bw forums to have an educated opinion about things?
What about people who simply liked to watch bw a lot but would never want to be part of the foreign bw community because of reasons (i won't specifiy, but i am sure you can figure it out yourself)
In another post you use the common argument of "if you want it easier play sc2 instead", as if custom hotkeys would be the only important factor in this decision. No ofc not, some people like bw's gameplay a ton, the idea is simply that hotkey changes as presented in the blizzard update won't actually change the gameplay, just make it easier to learn to play the game on the lower levels. A change which is exactly what is needed if you wanna have a stable community going forward.
Appeal to tradition everywhere, "bw is perfect". FFS no it is not and not every tiny change destroys the core gameplay of bw. Yes there shouldn't be mbs, yes there shouldn't be any change to the pathing and there probably shouldn't be any change to units (though this is arguable). But custom hotkeys as they were presented? The only legit fear i can somewhat understand is that you can change "patrol, hold position, etc", that actually might be "bad" if you wanna really find something to be mad about, but even that change will not matter in the big picture.
But that's exactly the problem which always appears, there is the thought of some change and voila, you guys come out and will use any technique to argue against it because that's exactly what you do every time. "Hey you don't have 20k posts in the bw forum", what an interesting argument....
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On May 23 2017 20:13 Mizconout wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 17:18 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players. Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play. Isn't this the kind of logic that perplexed InControl? Legacy players becoming elitist and extremely territorial of "their" game? ๐๐๐
The foreign BW scene really seems to have shifted from a bunch of guys who were passionate and proud of the game they played to a bunch of elitist bandwagoners in the last several years. I know which group I prefer.
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On May 23 2017 23:35 KrOjah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2017 20:13 Mizconout wrote:On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 17:18 CarbonTwelve wrote:On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote:On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote:On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote:
I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players. Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play. Isn't this the kind of logic that perplexed InControl? Legacy players becoming elitist and extremely territorial of "their" game? ๐๐๐ The foreign BW scene really seems to have shifted from a bunch of guys who were passionate and proud of the game they played to a bunch of elitist bandwagoners in the last several years. I know which group I prefer.
Please don't use such a wide brush :/
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I wish we could all just be excited for an awesome game with better accessibility, more cool stuff from high quality content creators, and a little bit less carpal tunnel.
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Wow, are people seriously arguing here who loves the game the most so that their subjective opinions have more value? Pathetic. Its a sign that rational argumentation has failed and now they try to argue that only their opinions matter.
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Just gonna put it out there that the people bitching about how certain people are bitching are no more productive than the problem they are complaining about.
We will just have to wait and see what happens when pros have access to it for a while. Hopefully it goes smoothly
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I can see the point of people worried about the pro-scene in terms of fairness to the old pros. If anything, KESPA (or its replacement) could institute a period of adaptation. Like: 1 year without allowing people to change the hotkeys in their tournaments. So then an old school pro would have that time to try to see if he wants to modify anything (and practice it, of course).
I doubt they'll change much if anything, but they'll have the time to try new configs...
Now, people complaining about the casual games. LOL. Give me a break. You probably already played against loads of players that custom their hotkeys. Me included. I've been doing this since I switched to Protoss more than 10 years ago.
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I'm okay with custom hotkeys for casual games, but for big tournaments, absolutely not. There needs to be standards and rules set for tournament level play, and that includes hotkey setup.
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Wait.. When did we decide that pros were being held back by their hotkeys? These are players churning out 400+ APM, do you really think that everyone being able to change hotkeys will impact them negatively?
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I'm playing with the idea to change scourge's hotkey from "S".... though I'd miss thoose plenty playful unneeded scourge against a full zealot - templar push *_*
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EPT
