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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On May 23 2017 14:59 Dazed_Spy wrote: Blizzard wants what we want because were the only demographic that actually realistically matters in regards to broodwar. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10627 Posts
On May 23 2017 10:17 CarbonTwelve wrote: You say "people" as though you know the thoughts of everyone interested in the game. The ones who get to decide how the game is designed is Blizzard themselves, and the people they choose to listen to, and hence who "has a say", is up to them. There seems to me to be a lot of attitude here from brood war fans that this is their game, and it belongs to them, not the 'casuals' or people new to the game. It really isn't. It's Blizzard's game, and they'll do what they think is best, which may mean designing things in ways that aren't representative of what old-school fans might want (and it should be pointed out again that not even within old school fans does there seem to be a consensus on what is best). I don't think it's appropriate to be telling people who's allowed to have an opinion on the game design. Thats because we, brood war fans, the die hards, the ones who stay up til 6am in the morning casting these games and giving you coverage is the reason this game is even close to being alive in the first place. so no, someone who comes walking into brood war to ride the coat-tails of people like this current brood war staff that has worked so hard for this game doesnt get to waltz in and tell us what brood war should be. You want sc2 mechanics? go play sc2. this isnt sc2, this is brood war. I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote: I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On May 23 2017 15:19 FlaShFTW wrote: I dont think its appropriate for some random who doesnt even give a damn about brood war during the dark era from 2012-2016 should be telling people that their voice actually matters. because it doesnt. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. But I'd suggest getting used to these people continuing to give their opinion and ignoring you when you say their opinion is irrelevant. On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote: It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. Agreed. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10627 Posts
On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote: It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. | ||
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goody153
44313 Posts
There is literally no point of buying remastered if it was just the same up to every little thing as old BW and no improvements or extra features. Why pay for something that is free if that's the case, literally just a waste of money if nothing is better. I don't think Ranked Match Making is enough to justify buying it. | ||
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Jealous
10415 Posts
On May 23 2017 15:44 Cascade wrote: It's pretty harsh to tell people that have played, followed and loved the game for more than a decade that their voice doesn't matter. I don't think he's talking about those people. In the end, the underlying issue is that if too many changes happen that end up affecting competitive play, then the scene will split. This may or may not be the case at the moment - some guy in here wanted PROOF that hotkey remap will affect gameplay, but how would you go about proving this without hotkey remapping being available to pros for more than a week or two? Or disproving it, for that matter? Impossible. We'll just have to wait and see what happens to the competitive scene. If it ends up doing something that the competitive community finds unfavorable to competitive play/balance/meta/whatever you want to call it, say for instance making Mutalisk micro too easy or something (not even going to conjecture, just giving a hypothetical example that has been thrown around), then you better believe all the serious competitions in Korea and all the streamers will revert to 1.16. There is precedent for this in China, which has been playing 1.13 for a long time despite newer patches being released. If that happens, then the scene will be cleanly split between two groups: people favoring the status quo i.e. the competitive standard, and newcomers who are much more liable to play super casually like Fastest/UMS on USE or just the campaign, and are much more likely to leave for greener pastures when the game gets too hard/they get bored/they can't transition to 1.16 because of their beloved hotkey remapping/something new and shiny comes out. This divide is essentially: 1. A "hardcore" mainstay population which has proven its desire, dedication, and most importantly its willingness to donate to players, run tournaments, post on forums, compile strategy guides, so on and so forth - contributors. 2. A "newcomer" population which is generally, as a whole, more fickle, entitled, and parasitic. I don't mean ALL new players. But many new players coming into this game by definition can't contribute much to the game until they become stronger and more dedicated players. They also are used to the luxuries/spoon-feeding of modern gaming, however you want to look at it. This divide would not be in Blizzard's favor in the long-term, nor for either divide, nor for the community as a whole. However, if Blizzard wants to make a quick buck, this would be a decent way to do it. They could also use this to springboard more restrictions on Korean broadcasting on 1.16. In that case, 1.18 had better be perfect or at least not noticeably different from 1.16 in terms of competitive play. This is why we are, in general, wary of any changes. Whether they do or do not change things is yet to be seen, but "Why take the risk?" is the natural position of anyone worried about the outcome. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10627 Posts
On May 23 2017 16:34 goody153 wrote: I don't understand about the complains this feature is good for newcomers. It's not like they're changing core mechanics(balanace of the game) they're just making the game more convenient for players. There is literally no point of buying remastered if it was just the same up to every little thing as old BW and no improvements or extra features. Why pay for something that is free if that's the case, literally just a waste of money if nothing is better. I don't think Ranked Match Making is enough to justify buying it. with remastered you're already getting basically a skin redesign on all buildings and units, you will get a wider screen, and you will get a fixed battle.net. that is what you are paying for without any upgrades. and if you dont want that, then fine, don't buy it. if you're expecting brood war to suddenly be different and basically have a 2nd installment, then go play sc2. that was your installment. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On May 23 2017 16:27 FlaShFTW wrote: It's also pretty ignorant for random newbies coming into a game and expecting to have their voices being taken seriously by veterans of the community. This isn't SC2. This is Brood War. I will reiterate it again. This is not your game, the game wasn't designed for you. If you wanted to play WC3, then you'd play WC3, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like WC3. If you wanted to play AoE2, you'd go play AoE2, you wouldn't tell Blizzard to make Brood War more like AoE2. There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players. At the end of the day, Blizzard is a gaming company. They're in this market to sell games, and the top 1% aren't the ones who make that viable. Now, I'm not suggesting they should simply cater to whatever the 'casuals' want, but I definitely disagree that their opinions are irrelevant and should be squashed. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10627 Posts
On May 23 2017 17:18 CarbonTwelve wrote: There are a couple of issues I see with this: 1. I will also reiterate again: this isn't your game. It's Blizzard's. 2. To follow your line of argument; this isn't Broodwar. If you want to play Broodwar, go play Broodwar. Nobody's stopping you. This is Starcraft: Remastered. At worst, I would say if I the pro scene decides the changes are too drastic, they'll keep playing Broodwar, and possibly just use SC:R for observing. Either way, SC:R is not just for pros / top level players. Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote:The game itself is not getting changed. Given it's Blizzard themselves who announced this change, it seems they disagree. | ||
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emeraldgreenforest
48 Posts
On May 23 2017 17:21 FlaShFTW wrote: Starcraft Remastered is still Brood War. but with a different skin to it and wider screen. The game itself is not getting changed. if you want an easier game, go run back to sc2 where you have your infinite building hotkeys and infinite unit selection and have fun there. this is brood war. don't like hard mechanics? dont play. I'm sorry I don't really understand why your getting so triggered I haven't seen anyone here make a argument that we need more then 12 unit selection if there are thats pretty much a minority I just don't see how its relevant to the topic hotkeys? | ||
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Jealous
10415 Posts
On May 23 2017 17:27 emeraldgreenforest wrote: I'm sorry I don't really understand why your getting so triggered I haven't seen anyone here make a argument that we need 12 unit selection if there are thats pretty much a minority I just don't see how its relevant to the topic hotkeys? Probably fear of the snowball effect. Give people an inch and they take a mile. Ask and receive one QoL improvement without regard for repercussions (or at least without Blizzard saying anything relevant to it), and then the next one might come just as easily and with more severe impact. I'm guessing that's the mentality. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 23 2017 15:05 CarbonTwelve wrote: Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. Debatable, and as mentioned there isn't even consensus amongst 'actual broodwar fans'. All this shit comes almost entirely from people who rage and never actually play the game. Find me someone whos hit c who wants mbs, or auto mining, or any significant change whatsoever except maybe the customizable hotkeys. They dont exist. There is a 1:1 relationship between being bad, not playing the game, and wanting the game to be massively restructured. Theres a reason for that: people who play and like the game arent seeking a new one. Thats what sc2 was for. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On May 23 2017 17:39 Dazed_Spy wrote: Not debatable in a serious way (for the reasons jelous gave), nor is there a serious lack of consensus. Actual broodwar players, people who actually play the game rather than drop in to complain they are d- or whatever (we have a few of them on TL), you would be hard pressed to find 1 in a hundred that want MBS, or balance changes. We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. | ||
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[AS]Rattus
433 Posts
-.- | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote: The threads about hotkey changes, the conversational chain between you me and flashftw involved mbs, automining etc. If you cant track what you and i are discussing, stop replying.We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing I conceded that in the very post you quoted; I'm one of them. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10627 Posts
On May 23 2017 17:52 CarbonTwelve wrote: We're discussing hotkeys, not MBS / balance changes. And there are plenty of people you would describe as 'actual broodwar players' just in this thread who've said they see rebindable hotkeys as a good thing. buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no. Same with Cascade. An entire history of posting only on the TL community or SC2 forums. Only talked in the BW forum when Jaedong came back because he was his favorite player back in sc2. this is laughable. | ||
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CarbonTwelve
Australia525 Posts
On May 23 2017 17:58 Dazed_Spy wrote: The threads about hotkey changes, the conversational chain between you me and flashftw involved mbs, automining etc. If you cant track what you and i are discussing, stop replying. At no point have I ever mentioned MBS, automining, or any other changes. To borrow your phrase, if you can't track what you and I are discussing, stop replying. On May 23 2017 17:59 FlaShFTW wrote: buddy, your entire post history has been in the SC2 forums. Not as single time did you even venture into the Brood War forums during your 500 post tenure. Why do you suddenly care so much about Brood War? Like honestly, this is the reason I can't take people like you seriously. You didn't give a damn about Starcraft Brood War. Hell even when the remastered was announced you didnt post about Brood War or the remastered. As soon as custom hotkeys come out suddenly you're interested? Bro, no. Sorry, but the ad hominem attacks really don't help your argument. Yes, I joined TL when SC2 came out. Does that mean I don't care about BW? No. Is how much I care about BW relevant to the discussion of whose opinion is valid regarding hotkeys in SC:R? No. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10627 Posts
On May 23 2017 18:17 CarbonTwelve wrote: At no point have I ever mentioned MBS, automining, or any other changes. To borrow your phrase, if you can't track what you and I are discussing, stop replying. Sorry, but the ad hominem attacks really don't help your argument. Yes, I joined TL when SC2 came out. Does that mean I don't care about BW? No. Is how much I care about BW relevant to the discussion of whose opinion is valid regarding hotkeys in SC:R? No. its not an ad hominem attack. it is going off of your tendencies and your lack of care for brood war as a whole. where were you from your join date up til now? you didn't give a damn about brood war so stop trying to pretend like you did. Go reread TLs commandments, and i suggest you carefully reread up on 1, 4, and 6. | ||
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